O-Ring burn through question
Gunter Krebs
does anyone know, if an O-Ring burn through has appeared on any other launch
vehicle besides the Shuttle? (i.e. on the Titan-3/-4 family, the Ariane-5
did not yet suffer an accident resulting from the SRBs)?
Gunter Krebs
www.skyrocket.de/space
jeff findley
>
> does anyone know, if an O-Ring burn through has appeared on any other launch
> vehicle besides the Shuttle? (i.e. on the Titan-3/-4 family, the Ariane-5
> did not yet suffer an accident resulting from the SRBs)?
Not specifically, but note that this is generally a hard thing to do
when the vehicle is declared "operational" as you generally don't
bother trying to recover SRB's that are considered expendable. This
is part of the problem with expendables in general. You can't really
do post-mission examination of the hardware.
Jeff
--
Remove "no" and "spam" from email address to reply.
Gunter Krebs
"jeff findley" <jeff.f...@no.sdrc.spam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:yz9ofee...@sgipd572.sdrc.com...
Certainly, the hardware is not recovered in any kind of failure, but You can
get clues from the telemetry. And in certain cases, like the Titan-34D
explosion of 1986, the wreckage was located near the pad, so it would be
accessible for investigation.
Gunter Krebs
Scott Lowther
Actaully, they managed to do some post mission hardware analysis of some
of the first Titan IIIc booster hardware. Even without parachutes,a
fair amount of stuff remained bobbing on the ocean surface when a Navy
ship got to the splashdown point. Subsequently, UTC looked into putting
a parachute pack on the nose of the boosters to make them recoverable.
There are also, of course, ground tests. I don't recall ever hearing of
an O-Ring burn through on one of these tests (of course, a burn through
then woudl be vastly less spectacular than one in flight...).
--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious spam-blockers to e-mail
Robert Casey
They found it afloat, so they figured NASA would be
interested and went and picked it up. Of course that
one is not a solid rocket booster....
TVDad Jim
> Actaully, they managed to do some post mission hardware analysis of some
> of the first Titan IIIc booster hardware. Even without parachutes,a
> fair amount of stuff remained bobbing on the ocean surface when a Navy
> ship got to the splashdown point. Subsequently, UTC looked into putting
> a parachute pack on the nose of the boosters to make them recoverable.
This discussion's got me wondering...
Were there pickups of any Saturn equipment, such as any of the F-1
engines, after launches? What kind of shape did the first stage have
after splashdown, anyway? I wouldn't imagine they'd be able to
maintain integrity after hitting the water and also being emptied of
fuel.
(Just trying to imagine being on a ship and hearing one of those
puppies diving into the ocean after a 30-mile fall...)
Dave
O-Ring damage. I can't remember which one missions.
Now, I have to go through all my old stuff.
Fly Safe,
In article <3d09ed17$0$229$4d4e...@businessnews.de.uu.net>,
gunter...@integra-europe.de says...
dk
--
If you don't know how to reply via email...
We're both better off :>)
dk
Hallerb
>As I recall, there were even a few shuttle SRB's which showed some minor
>O-Ring damage. I can't remember which one missions.
Definetely true. In retrospect it appeared burnthru was worse at low
temperatures but that wasnt put together untill after the disaster...
Terrell Miller
news:2usO8.10578$nn1.3...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> As I recall, there were even a few shuttle SRB's which showed some minor
> O-Ring damage. I can't remember which one missions.
>
> Now, I have to go through all my old stuff.
61C, IIRC. Blow-by, not an actual burnthrough, but serious enough.
--
Terrell Miller
terrel...@mindspring.com
"There is an influence in the light of morning that tends to rectify
whatever errors of fancy, or even of judgement, we may have incurred during
the sun's decline"
-Nathaniel Hawthorne
Scott Lowther
> Were there pickups of any Saturn equipment, such as any of the F-1
> engines, after launches?
Nope.
What kind of shape did the first stage have
> after splashdown, anyway?
>SPLAT<
There hasm, however, been talk of tryign to hunt down Apollo 11's S-IC
first stage. Curt Newport (the guy behind finding Liberty Bell 7) has
apparently shown soem interest. Don;t know what if anything is goign on,
however.
--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Patrick C. Flannery
Scott Lowther wrote:
>
>There hasm, however, been talk of tryign to hunt down Apollo 11's S-IC
>first stage. Curt Newport (the guy behind finding Liberty Bell 7) has
>apparently shown soem interest. Don;t know what if anything is goign on,
>however.
>
One of those F-1's from it would look really sharp sitting in the NASM-
and the other four would fetch very high bids on E-bay, if they fall
under the law of marine salvage.
Pat
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Patrick C. Flannery" <fla...@daktel.com> wrote in message
news:3D0B2F2...@daktel.com...
They would not. They are and continue to be the property of the US
Government.
> Pat
>
Patrick C. Flannery
Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
>"Patrick C. Flannery" <
>
>>
>
>They would not. They are and continue to be the property of the US
>Government.
>
That takes some of the fun out of it- but this sounds just like something Bob Ballard would go out searching for...and the sight of the murky waters in the tv camera giving way to a large red USA on a white and black stripped cylinder would really be something to see. Not to mention if you can find something as small as a Mercury capsule, this should be reasonable to do.
Pat
Gunter Krebs
"Patrick C. Flannery" schrieb:
> Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
>
> >"Patrick C. Flannery" <
> >
> >>
> >
> >They would not. They are and continue to be the property of the US
> >Government.
> >
> That takes some of the fun out of it- but this sounds just like something Bob Ballard would go out searching for...and the sight of the murky waters in the tv camera giving way to a large red USA on a white and black stripped cylinder would really be something to see.
Somehow, i have some doubts, if these stages are still in the shape of a cylinder. The forces at impact on the ocean surface might have slighly distorted the geometry of those objects - but sooner or later, someone will look after these and we will finally see.
Gunter Krebs
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
I believe he's discussed doing something like this.
In any case, I'm sure that if someone with the right credentials presented
themselves to the right authorities, they could get permission.
> Pat
>
>
Hallerb
>should be reasonable to
Ahh he wants to recover the engine bells, not necessarily the entire stage.
Another good pick up would be the escape tower. Guess he would take a entire
stage if it were intact.
Difficulty is the PROBLEM. The oicean is littered in this area with spent
stages and debris, including some unrecovered Challenger stuff. Perhaps some
unexploded ordinances and hazardous materials as well. Trouble is finding what
you want out of the mess.
Sad if the debris remain where they are eventually they will dissolve, just
like Titanic, which will ALL be gone in another 50 years or so,
I wonder if divers dont occasionally go fishing in this area?
After all who wouldnt want a bit of the space program on display, even if it
were from a unidentified booster?
BTW the enginge bells are serial numbered and that info still exists, so they
can be positively identified.
Henry Spencer
TVDad Jim <j...@tvdads.com> wrote:
>Were there pickups of any Saturn equipment, such as any of the F-1
>engines, after launches? What kind of shape did the first stage have
>after splashdown, anyway? I wouldn't imagine they'd be able to
>maintain integrity after hitting the water and also being emptied of
>fuel.
They lost integrity long before they hit the water. As it happens, the
debris shower from Apollo 11's S-IC was observed by a German merchant
vessel. (In those days, the Cape was pretty casual about spent-stage
impacts, and didn't make any effort to warn shipping away from the likely
debris area. That incident was the first time a ship had chanced to be in
the right/wrong place.)
--
In order to improve computer security, | Henry Spencer
the CEO must care. --Bruce Schneier | he...@spsystems.net
Henry Spencer
Patrick C. Flannery <fla...@daktel.com> wrote:
>>There hasm, however, been talk of tryign to hunt down Apollo 11's S-IC
>
>One of those F-1's from it would look really sharp sitting in the NASM-
>and the other four would fetch very high bids on E-bay, if they fall
>under the law of marine salvage.
Salvage law says that:
(a) Salvaged material of identifiable origin continues to belong to the
original owner, unless it has been *explicitly* abandoned (with some
specialized exceptions). So you can't just auction it off, unless the
owner fails to pay the court-ordered salvage fee, and the court instead
authorizes you to sell the stuff and take the proceeds as your fee.
(b) Government property is completely off limits to commercial salvage
anyway, unless you get permission from the government in question first.
Patrick C. Flannery
Greg D. Moore (Strider) wrote:
>
>I believe he's discussed doing something like this.
>
>In any case, I'm sure that if someone with the right credentials presented
>themselves to the right authorities, they could get permission.
>
Boy- now wouldn't that make a BEAUTIFUL National Geographic Explorer
special episode?
Pat
Kevin Willoughby
> Difficulty is the PROBLEM. The oicean is littered in this area with spent
> stages and debris, including some unrecovered Challenger stuff. Perhaps some
> unexploded ordinances and hazardous materials as well. Trouble is finding what
> you want out of the mess.
Curt and the rest of the guys who recovered Liberty Bell 7 had to deal
with the SOFAR bomb. No reason to assume other unexploded ordinances
are an impossible problem.
--
Kevin Willoughby kevinwi...@scispace.org.invalid
Microsoft treats security vulnerabilities as
public relations problems. -- Bruce Schneier
Patrick C. Flannery
Henry Spencer wrote:
>
>They lost integrity long before they hit the water. As it happens, the
>debris shower from Apollo 11's S-IC was observed by a German merchant
>vessel. (In those days, the Cape was pretty casual about spent-stage
>impacts, and didn't make any effort to warn shipping away from the likely
>debris area. That incident was the first time a ship had chanced to be in
>the right/wrong place.)
>
Not the first time, I think-IIRC there was a Redstone from a Mercury
launch that came down near a fishing vessel, and was reported by it as a
burning aircraft falling into the sea.
Pat
>
Justin Wigg
news:aeea31$dvi$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> 61C, IIRC. Blow-by, not an actual burnthrough, but serious enough.
As Diane pointed out, it was 51-C that had the worst blowby apart from 51-L.
Equally dangerous to the blowby problem was a flight that suffered erosion
of the SRB nozzle on one of the two boosters that nearly caused the nozzle
to disintegrate. Can't remember which flight it was, but that would have
been just as catastrophic as the 51-L disaster...
--
"Managing senior programmers is | Justin Wigg - Hobart, AUSTRALIA
like herding cats." - Dave Platt | Reply: jus...@icsmultimedia.com.au
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Justin Wigg wrote:
> "Terrell Miller" <terrel...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:aeea31$dvi$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > 61C, IIRC. Blow-by, not an actual burnthrough, but serious enough.
>
> As Diane pointed out, it was 51-C that had the worst blowby apart from 51-L.
>
> Equally dangerous to the blowby problem was a flight that suffered erosion
> of the SRB nozzle on one of the two boosters that nearly caused the nozzle
> to disintegrate. Can't remember which flight it was, but that would have
> been just as catastrophic as the 51-L disaster...
That was STS-8 Challenger. One of the carbon-phenolic resin liners of the
SRB nozzles suffered from excessive corrosion. The liners are designed to
sustain a burndown of to about 1-1.5" (2.54-3.81cm) from a preflight
thickness of 3" (7.62 cm) as a means of protecting the nozzle's aluminum
and steel structure from the 5,800 degree F (3,204 degree C) temperature
of the booster's exaust gases. Examination revealed that this particular
liner had burned down to a thickness of only 0.2" (0.51cm) in parts of the
nozzle. No offical times has ever been stated for how long remained until
burnthrough, but a figure of 14 seconds has been mentioned. [1]
-Mike
[1] Source: David Shayler's "Shuttle Challenger", page 31.