Scott Grissom is an embarrassment to his father
Steve
of Gus Grissom's "son", Scott. Is this really Grissom's son or an
imposter? If he is Grissom's son, he is truly an embarrassment to his
fathers memory and the legacy of Apollo 1. I can't believe the guy
thinks NASA killed his father and along with White and Chaffee. Does
he truly say that the astronauts were alive when the hatch was opened
then murdered? Tell me this isn't the way he really thinks. I went to
Virgil I. Grissom High School in Huntsville, Al. and I was always
proud of the namesake. I can't believe this twisted person is really
Gus' son. Tell me it ain't so.
OM
...In order - or, in the case of the subject, that's probabl *odor*.
And a burnt one, too:
1) Maybe. Maybe not. According to some of the "old guard" around here,
this actually is Scott Grissom, the son of Gus.
...However, it should be noted that the first verifcation came from
someone who claims to be a "historian" named "Mary C. Zornio" who
reportedly worked with the Grissoms regarding Betty's claims that Gus
was murdered. Zornio popped up on this group last year trying to back
up Scott at every turn, but refused for months to give information to
verify her credentials, much less her name. The best we got out of her
for months was her alias, "mc", and a veiled comment that if we knew
where to look on the NASA websites we'd be able to figure out who she
was. Regardless, it's still uncertain whether she was, in fact,
Zornio, as she's disappeared of late. Which isn't necessarily a bad
thing, as towards the end she was becoming very much a troll in action
with her style of defending Scott even when he farted in public.
...To add more confusion to the issue, Scott and mc both showed up at
a time when the group was being overrun by trolls and imposters such
as the Maxson Collective and CT. In fact, by choosing the alias of
"mc", quite a few suspected she was merely one of the many aliases
John Maxson and his psychotic son Paul were using to harass the group.
Considering they all shared a very anti-NASA bias and a lack of logic
to their rhetoric, the association and suspicions were not
unwarranted.
...These confusions tend to taint the evidence a bit, and until one of
us with credibility - read; Jim Oberg, Henry Spencer, rk, David
Sander, Mary Shaffer, Rand Simberg, Michael Cassutt, Andy Chaikin,
John Beaderstadt, or myself - actually meets Scott face-to-face,
doubts will remain as to whether we're hearing the insane rantings of
an impostor troll or not.
2) Scott or not, he *is* an embarassment, and is no better than the
Moon Hoax Hucksters.
3) The roots of the "NASA killed my Gus" lies in Betty Grissom's Air
Farce-fostered and post-traumatic angst-fueled beliefs that both NASA
and the Air Farce have failed to live up to the concept known as the
"Military Wives Compact", which in a nutshell is an unwritten
guarantee that as a pilot moves up the ladder of career advancement,
his family will prosper in accordance with his rank. In turn, should a
pilot die in the line of duty, the Air Farce/NASA will take care of
the surviving family accordingly. Based on what can be discerned from
her rantings, the following appears to be the "beef" of her claims:
* NASA and North American Aviation were both criminally responsible
for the deaths of the A1 crew due to negligence in the design and
construction of the Block I spacecraft.
* Furthermore, Betty apparently feels North American and/or NASA
deliberately sabotaged the A1 CM so as to eliminate Gus, who was
becoming more and more vocal about the shortcomings of the Block I.
Depending on which rambling of Betty's you read, it was either because
Gus hung a lemon on the CM simulator, or because Gus had reportedly
vowed to have North American fired as the CM contractor if the
"plugs-out" test failed. The sabotage, apparently best explained by
Scott despite the incoherency, was caused by a deliberately engineered
firing of an RCS unit during the "plugs-out" test that was rigged to
explode and/or simply cause the cabin to ignite under the 16.5 PSI
pure O2.
* Scott has recently made claims that one or more of the A1 crew were
still alive when the hatch was finally removed some 15 minutes after
the fire. He's also claimed that the survivors were euthanized shortly
after as part of the "conspiracy". He's offered no proof of these
claims to date that make any real sense.
* Since Gus' death, the Air Farce and NASA have done very little to
compensate for Gus' death as per the "compact", at least to her
specifications. The three A1 widows did sue NASA and North American
over the Block I, and were compensated by an unspecified settlement,
but while the other wives were apparently satisfied(*) Betty
apparently was not. She's since continued on a vendetta against NASA,
North American, and the Air Farce. If "Scott Grissom" is indeed her
son, it's obvious that since at least January 28th 1967, she's been
indoctrinating - no, make that brainwashing - the kid into following
her twisted train of thought.
(*) Questionable in the case of Pat White, who committed suicide in
1983, and had been in a constant state of depression since Ed's death.
4) I really wish I could tell you for certain that it's *not* Scott
Grissom, but there's evidence pro and con to this. Again, until
someone with credibilty can confirm either way, the jury's still out
on this one.
OM
--
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
- General George S. Patton, Jr
Steve
I just saw his webpage and I can say he and his mother are in denile.
Is it for money or what?
Steve
<om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too> wrote:
>4) I really wish I could tell you for certain that it's *not* Scott
>Grissom, but there's evidence pro and con to this. Again, until
>someone with credibilty can confirm either way, the jury's still out
>on this one.
>
>
> OM
http://www.apollo1.info/index.htm
Unfortunately it is Scott Grissom and his mother. How sad.
OM
...I define it as revenge for the sake of revenge. It's like this:
someone close to you dies. You learn that the death was caused by the
action or inaction of another. Whether deliberate or otherwise, the
person you believe is responsible for the death you will naturally
feel should be brought to justice and be forced to pay for his part in
the fatality. Regardless of whether he's found innocent or guilty, or
even if he's had charges leveled much less brought to trial, you
personally are going to want to wreak your own form of vengeance upon
him. Especially if you're still convinced he was at fault when the
evidence points otherwise.
At that point it goes from justice to vengeance to obsession. Both
Betty and Scott are well into the third stage, obvioulsy.
OM
>http://www.apollo1.info/index.htm
>
>Unfortunately it is Scott Grissom and his mother. How sad.
...Again, I'm still not totally convinced. I guess when Scott shows me
his Texas drivers license and punches me in the nose as he's promised
to do on several occasions, I may become a bit more convinced.
Steve
<om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too> wrote:
>At that point it goes from justice to vengeance to obsession. Both
>Betty and Scott are well into the third stage, obvioulsy.
>
>
> OM
It's one thing to say that the ship was sabotaged. It's another
entirely to say that the astronauts were alive after the fire and then
killed. That is sick. I'm sure the people who were there could sue him
if he kept that kind of talk up. Maybe he needs someone to challenge
him by way of the court system to put up or shut up.
OM
>It's one thing to say that the ship was sabotaged. It's another
>entirely to say that the astronauts were alive after the fire and then
>killed. That is sick. I'm sure the people who were there could sue him
>if he kept that kind of talk up. Maybe he needs someone to challenge
>him by way of the court system to put up or shut up.
...Then again, its one thing for a degenerate canine fellatio artist
like Maxson to cry murder, but when it's the son of one of the victims
the courts tend to shake their heads and go "hey, he's obviously
upset. Just let him stew unless he's trying to kill someone."
Alan Erskine
"Steve" <T...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:a4htsugvihpla5ceh...@4ax.com...
>
> I just saw his webpage and I can say he and his mother are in denile.
hmmmm, you know how to post to a newsgroup and insult people (regardless of
what you or anyone else thinks of them), but you can't spell "denial".
SPAMMER!
Alan Erskine
If you know this, then why did you post "If he is Grissom's son, he is truly
an embarrassment to his
fathers memory and the legacy of Apollo 1. I can't believe the guy
thinks NASA killed his father and along with White and Chaffee."?????
Like I said "SPAMMER"
-=ratz0fratzo=-
<alane...@optusnet.com.au> pounded out:
denile is a river in Egypt.
-=ratz0fratzo=-
_______________
Richard Glueck
Steve:
Scott Grissom is in fact, son of Gus Grissom, deceased astronaut.
Whether people want to support Scott and Betty's claim is totally up
to them, however a few clarifications are in order. #1 Scott does claim
to have evidence in the form of a short circuited switch which he located
while examining the remains of the Apollo 1 capsule. #2 Scott has
examined the autopsy reports on his father and Ed and Roger, and has
concluded with some support from another party that the astronauts may
still have been alive after the hatch was opened AND THAT RESUSCITATION
WAS NOT APPLIED TO THE MEN ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT THEY WERE ALREADY
DEAD. #3 Scott contends that this was tantamount to murder. #4 The very
public nature of that accident, the rush from other astronauts to move
on, the unimaginable horror of the event itself, has to have scarred the
Grissom family very deeply, particularly two young boys who saw their Dad
at the pinnacle of American hero worship. #5 Gus's memory has been
sorely abused in the film version of "The Right Stuff", which
characterized him as a foul-mouthed, womanizer, with little piloting
skill. #6 Scott has separated himself from other people who he believe
has used his father's memory for their own purposes. Unfortunately, this
includes certain individuals who many of us regard as very-"pro-Grissom",
including Curt Newport, the man who headed the recovery of "Liberty Bell
7".
Whether you choose to dispute or reject Scott Grissom's position is
entirely up to you after you hear him out. My personal belief is that
the fire occurred due to poorly workmanship on the capsule, shoddy
management, and an eagerness to put men into orbit in the most rapid
fashion. The accident probably saved the Apollo program, but at a
bitterly high price. I doubt that Deke Slayton, Tom Stafford, Frank
Borman, Wally Schirra, John Young, and the others would have tolerated a
murder conspiracy.
OM and Scott are particualrly bitter enemies on this topic. My
suggestion is that you read the documentation of the investigators, hear
what the other astronauts had to say, give Scott and Betty a fair
hearing, and make up your own mind. And foremost, keep in mind the
unique and particularly sensitive viewpoint of a 12 year old boy who has
his father's death graphically and hideously described over and over for
40 years.
RDG
OM
wrote:
> OM and Scott are particualrly bitter enemies on this topic. My
>suggestion is that you read the documentation of the investigators, hear
>what the other astronauts had to say, give Scott and Betty a fair
>hearing, and make up your own mind. And foremost, keep in mind the
>unique and particularly sensitive viewpoint of a 12 year old boy who has
>his father's death graphically and hideously described over and over for
>40 years.
...And Dick, ever the voice of reason, sums up things without my
vehemence, but still makes the same major point. Scott was warped by
the experience, and brainwashed by his mom. Keep this in mind when you
read his rhetoricals.
OM
>SPAMMER!
...No, a "spammer" is one who floods your e-mailbox with garbage, such
as the new combination of viagra and rogaine that allows old folks to
get it up enough to grow hair on their hands again. The guy read
Scott's paranoid rantings, expressed his opinion, and queried whether
or not it's the real Scott Grissom or a sick fraud. Sadly, he's no
fraud it appears. Sick, but no fraud.
Steve
From what rock did you crawl out from under?
Richard Glueck
OM wrote:
>
> ...And Dick, ever the voice of reason, sums up things without my
> vehemence, but still makes the same major point. Scott was warped by
> the experience, and brainwashed by his mom. Keep this in mind when you
> read his rhetoricals.
I only voiced my opinion and personal summation. Scott Grissom has
always been civil and open-minded when corresponding with me. Scott and I
may not see eye-to-eye on every point of his assertion, but I do try to share
his grief and the weight of it.
And I do appreciate being viewed as a "voice of reason". I try my
best.
RDG
Andrew Gray
>
> ...These confusions tend to taint the evidence a bit, and until one of
> us with credibility - read; Jim Oberg, Henry Spencer, rk, David
> Sander, Mary Shaffer, Rand Simberg, Michael Cassutt, Andy Chaikin,
> John Beaderstadt, or myself - actually meets Scott face-to-face,
> doubts will remain as to whether we're hearing the insane rantings of
> an impostor troll or not.
Andy Chaikin posts(-ed?) here? Never knew that...
--
-Andrew Gray
(crawling back into hiding)
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Andrew Gray" <andre...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnat0b...@compsoc.dur.ac.uk...
Ayup.
As have several other notable authors and space historians.
OM
...Yep, although of late he's been a bit quiet. I figure the trolls -
read: CT and his ilk - scared him off. Hence the reason we killfiled
him, or at least *one* of the reasons.
Thejunkfile
writes:
>Is this really Grissom's son or an
>imposter?
Based on the continued disrespect that "scott" shows Gus Grissom, I'd say the
latter.
OM
...Which brings up a question I should have asked Dick when he popped
in on this thread: Dick, exactly *how* did you determine this was the
real Scott Grissom? *I* am willing to accept your word per se, but
others might not. What proof do you have?
Hallerb
Did anyone from here attend last years memorial service?
I intended to go but my wife being off work ill for 7 months killed our $.
I believe Scotts basic claims. NASA wasnt prepared for a pad energency, had no
ability to open the hatch, didnt attempot to help the crew, probably because
the pad workers thought they were already dead. NASA likely found out AFTER the
fact that they screwed up and choose to keep it a secret.
The crew never got the credit its due. Without Apollo one we would of lost a
crew in orbit.
Given ALL this I would like to see a complete investigation.
With a pathologist like Cyril Wecht and a complete airing of all details.
Just as importandely the restoration of the capsule to a post fire state and
exhibit at the old pad in a proper respectful manner.
Of course with the pre apprval and cooperation of the family members.
None of this will bring the crew back.
But it WILL give them the recognition they deserve.
Stuf4
> <andre...@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Andy Chaikin posts(-ed?) here? Never knew that...
>
> ...Yep, although of late he's been a bit quiet. I figure the trolls -
> read: CT and his ilk - scared him off. Hence the reason we killfiled
> him, or at least *one* of the reasons.
I've had face-to-face discussions with Andy. He didn't run off when I
talked to him. They've been very positive interactions.
~ CT
jsc...@nospampirl.lpl.arizona.edu
: I believe Scotts basic claims. NASA wasnt prepared for a pad energency, had no
: ability to open the hatch, didnt attempot to help the crew, probably because
: the pad workers thought they were already dead. NASA likely found out AFTER the
: fact that they screwed up and choose to keep it a secret.
I don't believe it. Even if the crew were "alive" when the hatch was
opened, it would have taken a long time to extract them even if they
had been alive. The first pad crew to attempt to locate the crew after
the hatch was opened could not even find the crew to check on their
condition. The cabin was hot and filled with dense smoke and the pad
crew was ill equiped for both those conditions, not to mention were at
the limits of their abilities due to the conditions in the white room
and their efforts to remove the hatch. Their determination, considering
the conditions of the cabin, even if they were unable to physically
examine the crew, were as correct as they could be that the crew was
lost. It had been more than 5 minutes since the first reports of a fire
before the hatch was opened and one can imagine that even if they were
able to immediately get the crew out, they would have been exposed to
the smoke filled environment for at least 10 minutes before they could
have been resuscitated. I don't think saving the crew was very likely
even with a well trained and properly equiped pad crew. NASA certainly
screwed up, but the pad workers were the least of the problems that
terrible day.
: The crew never got the credit its due. Without Apollo one we would of lost a
: crew in orbit.
I disagree. I think they did get the credit they deserve. I think just
about everyone acknowledges that without their sacrifice, an accident,
possibly in space, would have occured anyway. It gave the Apollo program
a much needed pause to get a lot of important issues under control.
: Given ALL this I would like to see a complete investigation.
I don't see what more we could really learn. I think the original
investigation was quite thorough.
: With a pathologist like Cyril Wecht and a complete airing of all details.
Hopefully an objective pathologist with no preconceptions....
: Just as importandely the restoration of the capsule to a post fire state and
: exhibit at the old pad in a proper respectful manner.
Not sure I'd go quite so far. But some sort of display would be in
order. Displaying maybe some small part of the spacecraft and a
better job of preserving what is left of the pad would be appropriate.
I'd like to see something similar for Challengar - maybe have a piece
of the twisted wreckage with an exhibit along with Apollo 1's exhibit
would be appropriate.
: Of course with the pre apprval and cooperation of the family members.
: None of this will bring the crew back.
: But it WILL give them the recognition they deserve.
Completing the mission of Apollo honors the crew and the continued
exploration of space is the best way to continue to honor all of those
brave explorers lost in the persuit.
Jim.
Jim Scotti
Lunar & Planetary Laboratory jsc...@pirl.lpl.arizona.edu
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721 USA http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/
Steve
>Given ALL this I would like to see a complete investigation.
>
>With a pathologist like Cyril Wecht and a complete airing of all details.
>
I'll bet you think the CIA, FBI, Mafia and big business killed JFK
don't you? Wecht is a nut. NASA was unprepared but that's a long way
away from killing the crew that was still "alive" as Grisson has
stated. Go into a house full of smoke and take a breath. You pass out
then you are dead. Multiply that times 10 inside a spacesuit with no
oxygen breathing all kinds of nasty shit for 5 minutes and see if you
are still dead. Bunch of conspiracy goobs.
Richard Glueck
> ...Which brings up a question I should have asked Dick when he popped
> in on this thread: Dick, exactly *how* did you determine this was the
> real Scott Grissom? *I* am willing to accept your word per se, but
> others might not. What proof do you have?
Scott and I have exchanged personal correspondence utilizing his home address in
Houston. He also included private information which leaves no doubt in my mind
about the veracity of his being Gus's son. I think the access to photographs and
documents which he has garnered equally verifies him.
I don't want to be making a case for sides in this argument again. I have formed
my own opinions about the deaths of the three men involved and expressed them to
Scott privately.
I do wish to point out that Scott doesn't need me to take a stand in his behalf. I
merely want to assure him the right to a platform to assert his beliefs.
Facts for both sides to consider include the temperature and pressure of the
atmosphere in that sealed container, the length of time it took to remove the hatch
cover, and the lack of immediate resuscitation due to the condition of the cabin
interior, hazardous conditions in the white room, and the positions of the three
men. NASA wasn't prepared for this type of event, neither was anybody associated
with the program.
Opinion: Was there extrme negligence? Yes. Was it premeditated murder? No.
Could it have been prevented? Only if one could see the future. People saw the
problem, but simply didn't connect the individual point to reach the correct
conclusion.
This discussion always sinks to it's lowest ebb when epithets and name calling
displaces taking a reasoned position based on careful consideration of information
available.
Dick
Hallerb
>Could it have been prevented? Only if one could see the future. People saw
>the
I too doubt it was a planned murder. But the circumstances are interesting
enough and government covers stuff up so often it should be investigated.
I believe by impartial people.
To answer a previous question did the mob kill JFK? Doubtful.... Did Marilyn
Monroes death tie to JFK have some loose ends? Quite possible.
I strongly believe the Apollo one contribution to the moon program has not been
properly recognized.
Just as Challengers contribution to the present program isnt well recognized.
In BOTH cases by NASA publically to the masses. The average reader here is a
exception.
This lack of average joe is because NASA would prefer to forget their failures.
Otherwise we would have memorials for both sad events.
Just go to KSC, information is scarce. Anything at JSC?
OM
>To answer a previous question did the mob kill JFK?
"Who killed the Kennedys? Well, after all, it was you and me. Woo
Hoo."
Rolling StOMe
Steve
wrote:
>This discussion always sinks to it's lowest ebb when epithets and name calling
>displaces taking a reasoned position based on careful consideration of information
>available.
>
>Dick
If by that you mean calling NASA personal murderers, I totally agree.
OM
wrote:
>This discussion always sinks to it's lowest ebb when epithets and name calling
>displaces taking a reasoned position based on careful consideration of information
>available.
...And most of the vehemency, it should be noted, originates with
Scott when he raises the issue of murder where there clearly was none.
It's not even manslaughter by the legal definition. If anything, it's
death by misadventure, and only if you stretch that definition a great
deal. In turn, by claiming the deaths of Gus, Ed and Roger were
murder, it cheapens their sacrifice, adds unnecessary slander to those
at NASA and NAA who have already suffered for the fire, and in turn
damages any credibiltiy Scott could possibly have.
Bottom line: he may have lost his father and is seriously fucked up
over it, but by damaging the memory of three men to whom many saw as
pure heroes, he's only hurting himself further in a futile effort to
extract blood and vengeance. The damage is done, it's time to heal the
wounds he has rather than gouge new ones in others.
Steve
I would say that NASA has more to answer for on Challenger than
Apollo 1. They were told by people who knew not to launch Challenger
in the cold weather. No one said don't use 100% oxygen in the CM and
then use the escape tower cover so it took minutes to open the hatch.
NASA said they dropped the ball on Apollo 1 and they did. They also
sent 6 crews to the moon without a death and one mishap, Apollo 13.
That in itself is a hell of a safety record. More men have died
testing aircraft than spaceships.
Brett Buck
I'll wager more people died in train wrecks last year than in all
aircraft and space flight testing since 1903. Richard Trevithick is a Murderer!
Brett
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
>
>
> I would say that NASA has more to answer for on Challenger than
> Apollo 1. They were told by people who knew not to launch Challenger
> in the cold weather. No one said don't use 100% oxygen in the CM and
> then use the escape tower cover so it took minutes to open the hatch.
Actually that's not true. At least it's not clear if that's accurate or
not. I believe NAA produced memos after the fire claiming they had brought
up the issue.
Part of the problem was, "we've always done it this way, so why change now"
and reaction to Gus's Mercury hatch issue.
> NASA said they dropped the ball on Apollo 1 and they did. They also
> sent 6 crews to the moon without a death and one mishap, Apollo 13.
> That in itself is a hell of a safety record. More men have died
> testing aircraft than spaceships.
>
That last statement I think is a bit meaningless as there have been FAR more
aircraft tested than spaceships.
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Brett Buck" <buc...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3DD1D837...@pacbell.net...
Hmm, tempting wager. Are we talking just US or worldwide?
> Brett
john_thomas_maxson
news:i0k3tuo5rrhhhng7a...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:22:14 -0500, Richard Glueck <glu...@maine.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >This discussion always sinks to it's lowest ebb when epithets and name
calling
> >displaces taking a reasoned position based on careful consideration of
information
> >available.
>
> ...And most of the vehemency, it should be noted, originates with
> Scott when he raises the issue of murder where there clearly was none.
> It's not even manslaughter by the legal definition. If anything, it's
> death by misadventure, and only if you stretch that definition a great
> deal. In turn, by claiming the deaths of Gus, Ed and Roger were
> murder, it cheapens their sacrifice, adds unnecessary slander to those
> at NASA and NAA who have already suffered for the fire, and in turn
> damages any credibiltiy Scott could possibly have.
>
> Bottom line: he may have lost his father and is seriously fucked up
> over it, but by damaging the memory of three men to whom many saw as
> pure heroes, he's only hurting himself further in a futile effort to
> extract blood and vengeance. The damage is done, it's time to heal the
> wounds he has rather than gouge new ones in others.
>
>
> OM
OM -- Pop's Sickle (PS)
> "No bastard ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
> his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
> poor dumb bastard die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society
>
> - General George S. Patton, Jr
PS -- Mind your cysts, or Pop will have to.
Brett Buck
Worldwide - but the real trick would be finding out definitively how
many people died in aircraft and spacecraft test flights. Space, we got
a good idea, airplanes, hard to pin down.
Point of course being that it's not obviously lopsided, probably
close to even.
Brett
Alan Erskine
"Steve" <T...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:d323tukouiok655fe...@4ax.com...
OM
<alane...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>Like I said, just another little troll....
...Alan, I've yet to see where he's behaving like a troll. So far,
he's been pretty sane. At least, until you started accusing him of
being a troll.
...Think about it for a minute: any newbie fresh off the street who
comes across Scott's website who has a clue to his name is going to
question whether it's the real Scott Grissom or not. Hell, we *all*
questioned his validity, and some of us - me included - aren't totally
convinced despite Dick's confirmations.
He asked a question, we answered, and while he's convinced Scott's for
real, he's also convinced he's nuts. Why does that make him a troll?
OM
<max...@mission51l.com> wrote:
...Oh gee, the master(bator) troll is back. What happened, John? Did
your other son CT call you in for backup?
Back to killfile hell with you, scumbag...
<PLONK>
OM
--
OM
wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:05:01 -0500, Richard Glueck <glu...@maine.edu>
>wrote:
>
>>Scott Grissom has always been civil and open-minded when corresponding with me.
>
>Lucky you.
...Yeah, that does make *one*. Maybe two, if you can trust mc's
claims.
Steve
<alane...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Why don't you shove your troll stuff. Anyone who disagree's with you
is a troll? Idiot.
Steve
Yes, but the complication of the machine is the big factor. How hard
is it to take off and land a plane? Now how hard was it to go to the
moon. I'd say is was just short of a miracle.
Stuf4
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:19:49 -0600, "john_thomas_maxson"
> <max...@mission51l.com> wrote:
>
> ...Oh gee, the master(bator) troll is back. What happened, John? Did
> your other son CT call you in for backup?
>
> Back to killfile hell with you, scumbag...
>
> <PLONK>
Here we have more evidence that the #1 promoter of killfiles does not
even use them himself.
That's like learning that George Bush voted straight ticket Dem last
week.
~ CT
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Stuf4" <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:d3af8584.02111...@posting.google.com...
I don't know abotu George, but Jeb might have if he had attempted to vote in
certain districts in Floriday.
>
>
> ~ CT
Andrew Gray
> I would say that NASA has more to answer for on Challenger than
> Apollo 1. They were told by people who knew not to launch Challenger
> in the cold weather.
Um, no, NASA were told by Thiokol to launch Challenger... the exact
context of that decision is murky, with cultural collisons and
misconceptions on both sides, but Thiokol never went to NASA and said
"This is our recommendation; don't launch Challenger". They said, at one
point, "we think that the colder it gets the less good it'll be", but
their final advice was to launch...
I read /The Challenger Launch Decision/ by the way, people, the book I
asked you about; rather good. Enormous and occasionally disorienting -
the author is a sociologist not an engineer - but still worth reading...
> That in itself is a hell of a safety record. More men have died
> testing aircraft than spaceships.
There is the issue of proportions, here...
--
-Andrew Gray
JGDeRuvo
that NASA had the crew of Apollo 1 murdered. I think it was an
accident plain and simple.
Having said that, I am getting bone weary of the members of this group
dragging Scott Grissom's name through the mud in an effort to shout
down his questions regarding the death of his father.
Take a good look at the pictures of Scott around the time his dad
died. HE WAS A CHILD. His father, great man that he was - and a
perfect example of what a military man believes, sacrificed his family
for the country. He was always jetting off to the cape, or Houston,
or to the McDonald Dougle or North American factories. He was seldom
... SELDOM home. In many ways, Scott lost his dad long before that
tragic day. His only dream was for the day when his dad would step
aside ... maybe after walking on the moon ... and be his dad again.
And then the fire came and his dad was gone forever.
Is he bitter? But his life was changed forever on that day in ways
that you or I could never ... EVER ... imagine. And the answers to
the questions he's asked all his life have never satisfied him or his
mother to their liking.
THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT.
Whether or not things happened the way he believes isn't the point.
The point is, this man lost his father when he was a child.
Now sure, the members of this discussion board can be mean-spirited
and shout down Scott Grissom like a collective set of bullies with no
regard to what this kid went through.
Look at how Gus handled his celebrity. HE HATED IT.
And I have a hunch that is Gus could talk he get on this board and say
is LEAVE MY FAMILY ALONE.
You may think that Scott Grissom's crusade is a embarrassment on his
father's memory ... and you may be right.
But the way this group treats him and his mother is even MORE a blight
on Gus Grissom's memory.
So everyone grow up and ignore him. Let's honor Grissom's memory by
respecting ... and even disagreeing with ... but RESPECTING the
Grissom family.
OM
>Take a good look at the pictures of Scott around the time his dad
>died. HE WAS A CHILD.
...You're forgetting one other element here: His Mother. I suspect
that had Betty got the proper councelling after the Fire, she might
not have gone into paranoid brainwashing mode and screwed Scott over
so totally. She deserves more blame than Scott, not that Scott is
innocent, mind you. He's old enough to rationally analyze the
situation if he actually wanted to. Instead, he obviously prefers to
continue to play puppet to Betty's apronstrings.
Of course, that sort of relationship sometimes backfires. Just ask
Betty "X" Shabazz...
Jim Davis
> Take a good look at the pictures of Scott around the time his
> dad died. HE WAS A CHILD. His father, great man that he was -
> and a perfect example of what a military man believes,
> sacrificed his family for the country. He was always jetting
> off to the cape, or Houston, or to the McDonald Dougle or North
> American factories. He was seldom ... SELDOM home. In many
> ways, Scott lost his dad long before that tragic day. His only
> dream was for the day when his dad would step aside ... maybe
> after walking on the moon ... and be his dad again.
>
> And then the fire came and his dad was gone forever.
>
> Is he bitter? But his life was changed forever on that day in
> ways that you or I could never ... EVER ... imagine.
Why couldn't I ... EVER ... imagine? Scott Grissom was hardly the
only boy whose father pursued a career that entailed long periods of
family separation and who subsequently died in a horrible fashion.
Jim Davis
Brett Buck
>
> JGDeRuvo wrote:
>
> > Is he bitter? But his life was changed forever on that day in
> > ways that you or I could never ... EVER ... imagine.
>
> Why couldn't I ... EVER ... imagine? Scott Grissom was hardly the
> only boy whose father pursued a career that entailed long periods of
> family separation and who subsequently died in a horrible fashion.
I would not defend or condemn Scott's actions in any way, , but one
obviously huge difference in the case of the Apollo 1 fire vs. others
you suggest is that they died in the full glare of one of the biggest,
most notable, and public pursuits in the history of mankind.
Brett
Jim Davis
> I would not defend or condemn Scott's actions in any way, ,
> but one
> obviously huge difference in the case of the Apollo 1 fire vs.
> others you suggest is that they died in the full glare of one of
> the biggest, most notable, and public pursuits in the history of
> mankind.
Sure, but why would that make Scott Grissom more deserving of our
sympathy, as Mr. DeRuvo suggests, than, say, someone whose father has
been listed as MIA in Vietnam for 35 years?
I just can't accept Mr. DeRuvo's notion that Scott Grissom's loss has
been so uniquely painful that Scott deserves a free pass for his
words and deeds.
Jim Davis
Brett Buck
It doesn't, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest it did. My only
point is that there could be at least some additional psychological
factors that would make Scott tend to go further off his nut than others
in similar situations. Which he undoubtedly has.
Brett
OM
wrote:
>I just can't accept Mr. DeRuvo's notion that Scott Grissom's loss has
>been so uniquely painful that Scott deserves a free pass for his
>words and deeds.
...This is like saying that Charles Manson should be excused for the
Tate-LoBianca murders because he was a bastard child who was abused,
neglected and otherwise came from a broken home. Or that Nixon should
be excused for slush fund impropriety during the '52 election because
he accepted a dog as a gift.
OM
wrote:
> It doesn't, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest it did. My only
>point is that there could be at least some additional psychological
>factors that would make Scott tend to go further off his nut than others
>in similar situations. Which he undoubtedly has.
...There are, and they all come from his mom. The syndrome is very
similar to that experienced by kids when the parents are separated
*and* the separation is not an amicable one. The parent who has
custody will, without question, start brainwashing the poor kid(s)
into towing their political line against the other parent. "Your
father was a drunken bum, and if you live with him he's liable to sell
you for experimental science. Right after his new girlfriend sexually
abuses you.(*)".
In this case, Betty applied the same sick psychological tricks on
Scott, with "deadbeat dad" substituted with "North American Aviation
and that slut he sleeps with, NASA!"...
(*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
Andre Lieven
Like the families of the victims of Challenger and WTC/Pentagon/
Pennsylvania-9/11 didn't ?
Andre
--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.
Andre Lieven
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:20:09 GMT, Brett Buck <buc...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>> It doesn't, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest it did. My only
>>point is that there could be at least some additional psychological
>>factors that would make Scott tend to go further off his nut than others
>>in similar situations. Which he undoubtedly has.
>
> ...There are, and they all come from his mom. The syndrome is very
> similar to that experienced by kids when the parents are separated
> *and* the separation is not an amicable one. The parent who has
> custody will, without question, start brainwashing the poor kid(s)
> into towing their political line against the other parent. "Your
> father was a drunken bum, and if you live with him he's liable to sell
> you for experimental science. Right after his new girlfriend sexually
> abuses you.(*)".
Look up " Parentas Alienation Syndrome "... Thats it exactly.
> In this case, Betty applied the same sick psychological tricks on
> Scott, with "deadbeat dad" substituted with "North American Aviation
> and that slut he sleeps with, NASA!"...
>
> (*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
And is Swedish ? <g>
OM
wrote:
>> (*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
>
>And is Swedish ? <g>
...Swedish, California Bimbo, what's the diff? :-)
Andre Lieven
> On 17 Nov 2002 07:44:25 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>> (*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
>>
>>And is Swedish ? <g>
>
> ...Swedish, California Bimbo, what's the diff? :-)
When you kiss the Swede, you *don't* get gum in your mouth... <g>
OM
wrote:
>OM (om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too) writes:
>> On 17 Nov 2002 07:44:25 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> (*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
>>>
>>>And is Swedish ? <g>
>>
>> ...Swedish, California Bimbo, what's the diff? :-)
>
>When you kiss the Swede, you *don't* get gum in your mouth... <g>
...And just to take this to it's extreme, "are you *sure* that's
-gum-?"
Andre Lieven
> On 17 Nov 2002 18:23:26 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>OM (om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too) writes:
>>> On 17 Nov 2002 07:44:25 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (*) Then again, when stepmom turns out to be 38-24-34....
>>>>
>>>>And is Swedish ? <g>
>>>
>>> ...Swedish, California Bimbo, what's the diff? :-)
>>
>>When you kiss the Swede, you *don't* get gum in your mouth... <g>
>
> ...And just to take this to it's extreme, "are you *sure* that's
> -gum-?"
Ew ! Just... Ew !
Brett Buck
>
> Brett Buck (buc...@pacbell.net) writes:
> > Jim Davis wrote:
> >>
> >> JGDeRuvo wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is he bitter? But his life was changed forever on that day in
> >> > ways that you or I could never ... EVER ... imagine.
> >>
> >> Why couldn't I ... EVER ... imagine? Scott Grissom was hardly the
> >> only boy whose father pursued a career that entailed long periods of
> >> family separation and who subsequently died in a horrible fashion.
> >
> > I would not defend or condemn Scott's actions in any way, , but one
> > obviously huge difference in the case of the Apollo 1 fire vs. others
> > you suggest is that they died in the full glare of one of the biggest,
> > most notable, and public pursuits in the history of mankind.
>
> Like the families of the victims of Challenger and WTC/Pentagon/
> Pennsylvania-9/11 didn't ?
Well, wait 10-15 years and then count how many conspiracy loonies
come out of the WTC event. Come to think of it, you don't have to wait,
they are already here.
I'm not attempting to justify Scott's psychological problems, just to
understand them.
Brett
OM
wrote:
> I'm not attempting to justify Scott's psychological problems, just to
>understand them.
...What's there to not understand? He was traumatized by the death of
his father, brainwashed by a psychotic mother, and Godhelpus he's
flying the friendly skies as a pilot. Do the math.
Andre Lieven
Indeed, and we *acknowledge* that they're fruitbat loons. How they
got to be such, doesn't much matter, for the purposes of history.
> I'm not attempting to justify Scott's psychological problems, just to
> understand them.
Pain, Parental Alienation Syndrome from a wacked out mom, and an
unrelenting *inability* to let it go, as an adult. Hes what, 47 now ?
At what point is he to be told to *get on with it* ?
One thing that I have learned about such folks, whatever their mania
and point of view within it are, is that they are operating with
a so *different* set of personal life values, that there is little
common ground ( In areas pertaining to the issue ) between them
and normal folks.
They're just *different*, in a not good way, and, until they choose
to rejoin the Human Race, their views won't make sense to the rest
of humanity. And, vice versa.
OM
wrote:
>Pain, Parental Alienation Syndrome from a wacked out mom, and an
>unrelenting *inability* to let it go, as an adult. Hes what, 47 now ?
>At what point is he to be told to *get on with it* ?
...Someone did. The problem is that he thought he was told to "get on
with finding your father's murderers" as opposed to "get on with your
life".
Andre Lieven
> On 18 Nov 2002 06:06:58 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>Pain, Parental Alienation Syndrome from a wacked out mom, and an
>>unrelenting *inability* to let it go, as an adult. Hes what, 47 now ?
>>At what point is he to be told to *get on with it* ?
>
> ...Someone did. The problem is that he thought he was told to "get on
> with finding your father's murderers" as opposed to "get on with your
> life".
IOW, his innate prejudices caused him to munge the message...
OM
wrote:
>OM (om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too) writes:
>> On 18 Nov 2002 06:06:58 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Pain, Parental Alienation Syndrome from a wacked out mom, and an
>>>unrelenting *inability* to let it go, as an adult. Hes what, 47 now ?
>>>At what point is he to be told to *get on with it* ?
>>
>> ...Someone did. The problem is that he thought he was told to "get on
>> with finding your father's murderers" as opposed to "get on with your
>> life".
>
>IOW, his innate prejudices caused him to munge the message...
...Sorta like John Maxson's, although I suspect his situation is more
related to senile dementia. To be honest, if you went to his site and
replaced his picture with that of Grampa Simpson, nobody would be able
to tell the difference.
...Still, I find it interesting that Scott's getting support from John
these days. I fully expect John to start supporting Brad Guth as well
within the week, with McElwayne next by the end of the year. Guess it
just goes to show you that if you allow the insane to communicate with
one another, if they don't kill each other they'll cross-pollinate.
Andre Lieven
> On 18 Nov 2002 17:22:46 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>OM (om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too) writes:
>>> On 18 Nov 2002 06:06:58 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Pain, Parental Alienation Syndrome from a wacked out mom, and an
>>>>unrelenting *inability* to let it go, as an adult. Hes what, 47 now ?
>>>>At what point is he to be told to *get on with it* ?
>>>
>>> ...Someone did. The problem is that he thought he was told to "get on
>>> with finding your father's murderers" as opposed to "get on with your
>>> life".
>>
>>IOW, his innate prejudices caused him to munge the message...
>
> ...Sorta like John Maxson's, although I suspect his situation is more
> related to senile dementia. To be honest, if you went to his site and
> replaced his picture with that of Grampa Simpson, nobody would be able
> to tell the difference.
Naw, Grampa Simpson makes *occasional* sense...
> ...Still, I find it interesting that Scott's getting support from John
> these days. I fully expect John to start supporting Brad Guth as well
> within the week, with McElwayne next by the end of the year. Guess it
> just goes to show you that if you allow the insane to communicate with
> one another, if they don't kill each other they'll cross-pollinate.
Insanity loves company. And, the telling part is that *none of them*
ever offer *any* proof for their demented ravings.
QED.
OM
wrote:
>> ...Sorta like John Maxson's, although I suspect his situation is more
>> related to senile dementia. To be honest, if you went to his site and
>> replaced his picture with that of Grampa Simpson, nobody would be able
>> to tell the difference.
>
>Naw, Grampa Simpson makes *occasional* sense...
...True. I suppose that insanity overrides senility in this case.
Sideshow Bob, perhaps? Or Mr. Burns?
>> ...Still, I find it interesting that Scott's getting support from John
>> these days. I fully expect John to start supporting Brad Guth as well
>> within the week, with McElwayne next by the end of the year. Guess it
>> just goes to show you that if you allow the insane to communicate with
>> one another, if they don't kill each other they'll cross-pollinate.
>
>Insanity loves company. And, the telling part is that *none of them*
>ever offer *any* proof for their demented ravings.
...And we can add CT to that family as well. Just has me believing
more and more that they're all cut from the same family fart.
Kevin Willoughby
> >Opinion: Was there extrme negligence? Yes. Was it premeditated murder? No.
> >Could it have been prevented? Only if one could see the future. People saw
> >the
>
> I too doubt it was a planned murder. But the circumstances are interesting
> enough and government covers stuff up so often it should be investigated.
It *was* investigated. Then the investigation was investigated by
Congress. Unless there is new evidence or a radical yet reasonable
reinterpretation of the old evidence, what's to be gained?
(Scott Grissom was trying to make the case that was new evidence. To my
taste, he hasn't shown anything significant. At least, not yet.)
> This lack of average joe is because NASA would prefer to forget their failures.
>
> Otherwise we would have memorials for both sad events.
My town has several memorials to the Challenger disaster. We took it
quite personally and won't forget.
--
Kevin Willoughby kevinwi...@scispace.org.invalid
Microsoft treats security vulnerabilities as
public relations problems. -- Bruce Schneier
Andre Lieven
> On 18 Nov 2002 21:55:49 GMT, dg...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven)
> wrote:
>
>>> ...Sorta like John Maxson's, although I suspect his situation is more
>>> related to senile dementia. To be honest, if you went to his site and
>>> replaced his picture with that of Grampa Simpson, nobody would be able
>>> to tell the difference.
>>
>>Naw, Grampa Simpson makes *occasional* sense...
>
> ...True. I suppose that insanity overrides senility in this case.
> Sideshow Bob, perhaps? Or Mr. Burns?
I don't think so, as each showed some cunning, with a purpose in...
mind.
I honestly can't think of a character to fit this analogy, as I can't
think of any unredeemable loons in fiction...
>>> ...Still, I find it interesting that Scott's getting support from John
>>> these days. I fully expect John to start supporting Brad Guth as well
>>> within the week, with McElwayne next by the end of the year. Guess it
>>> just goes to show you that if you allow the insane to communicate with
>>> one another, if they don't kill each other they'll cross-pollinate.
>>
>>Insanity loves company. And, the telling part is that *none of them*
>>ever offer *any* proof for their demented ravings.
>
> ...And we can add CT to that family as well. Just has me believing
> more and more that they're all cut from the same family fart.
Stuff 'em into a Titan bound probe, and return them to their
element...Hey, that was even close to on topic...<g>
Hallerb
>My town has several memorials to the Challenger disaster. We took it
>quite personally and won't forget.
Ahh BUT NASA has no such memorial,at least not at KSC.
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
"Hallerb" <hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021119001020...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> >
> >My town has several memorials to the Challenger disaster. We took it
> >quite personally and won't forget.
>
> Ahh BUT NASA has no such memorial,at least not at KSC.
Right, instead they have the Mirror honoring ALL (well some will quibble
there) astronauts.
Hallerb
>Right, instead they have the Mirror honoring ALL (well some will quibble
>there) astronauts.
But that was a private operation, just located at the KSC gate. NOT NASA....
Thejunkfile
<om@CT_is_a_troll_AND_a_putz.too> writes:
> The problem is that he thought he was told to "get on
>with finding your father's murderers"
Sorta like OJ's promise to find the real killers..on the golf course.
OM
...Or Maxson's promise to bring the Challenger murders to justice from
the Old Folks Home.
