info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
More Examples of Current NASA Racism: Clocks, etc
118 views
Skip to first unread message
Stuf4
Jan 29, 2018, 12:43:12 AM1/29/18
to
Fact: NASA uses racist clocks.
People are blind to many forms of racism. With a legacy of hundreds of years,
racism is steeped into our culture so deeply that many forms go unchecked.
People continue to use these heavily tainted aspects with no thought at all
about the roots of where these things came from.
As evidenced on this forum, people do not care that the Apollo 16 landing site
has been branded with racist symbolism. People care even less that the clocks
that NASA uses continue to promote a racist legacy.
There are other examples beside clocks and Stone Mountain. We could play 'Spot
the Racism', if anyone was game.
Here's one that was pointed out earlier...
Astronaut Jan Davis flying her "WASP" pennant, her alma mater Georgia Tech:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/99/a8/1e99a8199ad5075b1a39eb89be0f559b.jpg
As for the clocks, no one complains about it. The voices of the people who care
has been squashed so thoroughly that their voice is not even heard anymore.
Anyone interested in more examples? Here is a list of NASA aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_aircraft
There are several examples of officially sanctioned racism by NASA right there.
It continues through to today. And nobody cares.
It has been recently suggested that certain issues are Off Topic for this forum.
But these things being highlighted here span from today all the way back to the
very beginnings of NASA and earlier. So I see them to be quite fitting for
discussion among those with an interest in space history.
~ CT
People are blind to many forms of racism. With a legacy of hundreds of years,
racism is steeped into our culture so deeply that many forms go unchecked.
People continue to use these heavily tainted aspects with no thought at all
about the roots of where these things came from.
As evidenced on this forum, people do not care that the Apollo 16 landing site
has been branded with racist symbolism. People care even less that the clocks
that NASA uses continue to promote a racist legacy.
There are other examples beside clocks and Stone Mountain. We could play 'Spot
the Racism', if anyone was game.
Here's one that was pointed out earlier...
Astronaut Jan Davis flying her "WASP" pennant, her alma mater Georgia Tech:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/99/a8/1e99a8199ad5075b1a39eb89be0f559b.jpg
As for the clocks, no one complains about it. The voices of the people who care
has been squashed so thoroughly that their voice is not even heard anymore.
Anyone interested in more examples? Here is a list of NASA aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NASA_aircraft
There are several examples of officially sanctioned racism by NASA right there.
It continues through to today. And nobody cares.
It has been recently suggested that certain issues are Off Topic for this forum.
But these things being highlighted here span from today all the way back to the
very beginnings of NASA and earlier. So I see them to be quite fitting for
discussion among those with an interest in space history.
~ CT
Jeff Findley
Jan 29, 2018, 5:54:46 AM1/29/18
to
In article <45b3d294-3053-455d...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
this subject from my newsreader. Bye Felicia!
Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
>
> Fact: NASA uses racist clocks.
I'm not playing anymore because this is becoming absurd. I'm blocking
> Fact: NASA uses racist clocks.
this subject from my newsreader. Bye Felicia!
Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
Dean Markley
Jan 29, 2018, 9:29:27 AM1/29/18
to
Stuf4
Jan 29, 2018, 11:36:47 PM1/29/18
to
From Dean Markley:
As for what exactly "is wrong", I myself am of the opinion that it is the racism that is the problem, not the person who is wanting to shine a light on the racism.
I had first pointed this out maybe two decades ago. Not here on this forum, but over on a forum that used this same practice. They were a lot more receptive to having this called to their attention. And I'm highlighting this over here now because it fits with the essential theme of the discussion in the wake of John Young's death this month...
Improving sensitivity to issues that people just didn't care about for many many years. Generally known as "progress".
So what's wrong with me? I care about progress. I care about improving the human condition. I refuse to ignore that Stone Mountain has a poisonous legacy, and that horribly negative aspects of that has been transplanted up on the Moon. Etc.
It is clear that Fred, Jeff, and apparently you, would prefer to keep your heads buried in the sand over stuff like this. Given that I am a minority of 1 here who is wanting progress on these things, it is easy to dismiss me as being the problem. There are many who wanted to dismiss Martin Luther King as the problem.
...but that didn't happen. The minority opinion gained momentum and support. People switching from the majority side. The oppressive side.
And for anyone who is curious about the clock situation, it is an entrenched oppression of what has been recently categorized as a "shithole country" in a "shithole continent".
This is not limited to NASA. It is quite possible that you own clocks and watches express this same racism. There are millions of people who support this practice, giving no thought at all to the black-skinned people who this has impacted.
(The situation with those aircraft is not about black peoples. But I see that issue to be just as important. Or perhaps more important.)
~ CT
> What is wrong with you?
Ok, that's 2 people who aren't interested in hearing how clocks are racist.
As for what exactly "is wrong", I myself am of the opinion that it is the racism that is the problem, not the person who is wanting to shine a light on the racism.
I had first pointed this out maybe two decades ago. Not here on this forum, but over on a forum that used this same practice. They were a lot more receptive to having this called to their attention. And I'm highlighting this over here now because it fits with the essential theme of the discussion in the wake of John Young's death this month...
Improving sensitivity to issues that people just didn't care about for many many years. Generally known as "progress".
So what's wrong with me? I care about progress. I care about improving the human condition. I refuse to ignore that Stone Mountain has a poisonous legacy, and that horribly negative aspects of that has been transplanted up on the Moon. Etc.
It is clear that Fred, Jeff, and apparently you, would prefer to keep your heads buried in the sand over stuff like this. Given that I am a minority of 1 here who is wanting progress on these things, it is easy to dismiss me as being the problem. There are many who wanted to dismiss Martin Luther King as the problem.
...but that didn't happen. The minority opinion gained momentum and support. People switching from the majority side. The oppressive side.
And for anyone who is curious about the clock situation, it is an entrenched oppression of what has been recently categorized as a "shithole country" in a "shithole continent".
This is not limited to NASA. It is quite possible that you own clocks and watches express this same racism. There are millions of people who support this practice, giving no thought at all to the black-skinned people who this has impacted.
(The situation with those aircraft is not about black peoples. But I see that issue to be just as important. Or perhaps more important.)
~ CT
Dean Markley
Jan 30, 2018, 9:42:43 AM1/30/18
to
Stuf4
Jan 30, 2018, 11:11:22 PM1/30/18
to
From Dean Markley:
<snip>
But there is the possibility that someone here ...if not today, then perhaps at some point in the future... might be open-minded enough to consider what has to be said about this clock problem. And the other stuff too.
~ CT
<snip>
> Look, racist clocks have nothing to do with Space History. It's that simple. Multiple folks here have pointed out that your threads are off topic. Understand now?
One year ago your position on Debbie Reynolds was that she did not have any connection to space history ...even after the connection was pointed out.
But there is the possibility that someone here ...if not today, then perhaps at some point in the future... might be open-minded enough to consider what has to be said about this clock problem. And the other stuff too.
~ CT
Dean Markley
Jan 31, 2018, 7:55:38 AM1/31/18
to
Fred J. McCall
Jan 31, 2018, 8:51:22 PM1/31/18
to
Fact: You're an insane racist.
>
>It has been recently suggested that certain issues are Off Topic for this forum.
>
Yes. Insanity has no place here and this isn't a 'forum'.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
>
>It has been recently suggested that certain issues are Off Topic for this forum.
>
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Fred J. McCall
Jan 31, 2018, 9:06:51 PM1/31/18
to
idiocy about 'racist' clocks.
>
>As for what exactly "is wrong", I myself am of the opinion that it is the racism that is the problem, not the person who is wanting to shine a light on the racism.
>
>
>I had first pointed this out maybe two decades ago. Not here on this forum, but over on a forum that used this same practice. They were a lot more receptive to having this called to their attention.
>
sane people alone.
>
>Improving sensitivity to issues that people just didn't care about for many many years. Generally known as "progress".
>
as "being a loony ninny". You should quit it.
>
>So what's wrong with me?
>
Stuf4
Feb 1, 2018, 1:24:17 AM2/1/18
to
From Dean Markley:
The racist clocks connect Shakespeare to Apollo to NASA. And by way of the racism, returning full circle to John Young's legacy at the Apollo 16 landing site.
~ CT
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 11:11:22 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
> > From Dean Markley:
> > <snip>
> > > Look, racist clocks have nothing to do with Space History. It's that simple. Multiple folks here have pointed out that your threads are off topic. Understand now?
> >
> > One year ago your position on Debbie Reynolds was that she did not have any connection to space history ...even after the connection was pointed out.
> >
> > But there is the possibility that someone here ...if not today, then perhaps at some point in the future... might be open-minded enough to consider what has to be said about this clock problem. And the other stuff too.
> > From Dean Markley:
> > <snip>
> > > Look, racist clocks have nothing to do with Space History. It's that simple. Multiple folks here have pointed out that your threads are off topic. Understand now?
> >
> > One year ago your position on Debbie Reynolds was that she did not have any connection to space history ...even after the connection was pointed out.
> >
> > But there is the possibility that someone here ...if not today, then perhaps at some point in the future... might be open-minded enough to consider what has to be said about this clock problem. And the other stuff too.
> Well sure, give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time and he'll eventually bang out all of Shakespeare's plays.
Actually, curiously enough, this time thing actually ties in to Shakespeare. And to Apollo. You may know the connection between Shakespeare and Apollo.
The racist clocks connect Shakespeare to Apollo to NASA. And by way of the racism, returning full circle to John Young's legacy at the Apollo 16 landing site.
~ CT
Stuf4
Feb 10, 2018, 7:46:42 AM2/10/18
to
From Fred J. McCall:
I am sure that there will be those who will be very interested to know just exactly how these clocks are racist. But you have made it clear that you are not one such person.
If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
I had maintained a hope that it was only a certain few members who had set the nasty environment that permeated this place, and that when they died off, things might be reasonably respectful. But clearly I was mistaken. Or rather, I was mistaken in *who* I was identifying as the source of such vile behavior.
It could also be concluded that violence is inherently embedded as integral to the human condition, and that if the world population were reduced to just 2 people, one would kill the other.
Here again, I would like to think that it would make a world of difference depending on *who* those 2 people were. I am certain that if it were me, I would have absolutely no violence in words or actions toward the other. And if a computer were around, that person might find my decades long records of effort spent on the interwebs motivated by a desire that things might improve, even if just by a little bit.
...by pointing out things like racism that billions of other people appear to be perfectly content in ignoring.
You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
~ CT
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >Fact: NASA uses racist clocks.
> >
>
> Fact: You're an insane racist.
Clearly something has tripped where you have made the decision to depart from rationality. Your primary focus has shifted to insults and degradation.
> >
> >Fact: NASA uses racist clocks.
> >
>
> Fact: You're an insane racist.
I am sure that there will be those who will be very interested to know just exactly how these clocks are racist. But you have made it clear that you are not one such person.
If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
I had maintained a hope that it was only a certain few members who had set the nasty environment that permeated this place, and that when they died off, things might be reasonably respectful. But clearly I was mistaken. Or rather, I was mistaken in *who* I was identifying as the source of such vile behavior.
It could also be concluded that violence is inherently embedded as integral to the human condition, and that if the world population were reduced to just 2 people, one would kill the other.
Here again, I would like to think that it would make a world of difference depending on *who* those 2 people were. I am certain that if it were me, I would have absolutely no violence in words or actions toward the other. And if a computer were around, that person might find my decades long records of effort spent on the interwebs motivated by a desire that things might improve, even if just by a little bit.
...by pointing out things like racism that billions of other people appear to be perfectly content in ignoring.
You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
~ CT
Dean Markley
Feb 10, 2018, 3:37:21 PM2/10/18
to
Stuf4
Feb 10, 2018, 4:03:25 PM2/10/18
to
From Dean Markley:
I know many Republicans who are opposed to racism.
...yet these same people support the use of racist clocks.
The clocks are a non-partisan issue, best I can tell.
Or more accurately, an non-partisan non-issue. Because no one cares about it.
I have *never* seen anyone raise a single objection to the use of such clocks.
I see the current situation to be akin to something like blackface. There was a time when no one questioned this practice. It's just how things were done. Try doing that today, and everyone clearly sees this to be racist. So no one cares about these clocks today, but it is easy to imagine some point of time in the future where awareness will have been raised to the point where such usage will be shunned. And we will look back on these NASA documents with these time references (among many other uses) and people will see very clearly how asleep we are today in 2018 about certain aspects of the racism issue.
~ CT
> On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 7:46:42 AM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
<snip>
> > Clearly something has tripped where you have made the decision to depart from rationality. Your primary focus has shifted to insults and degradation.
> >
> > I am sure that there will be those who will be very interested to know just exactly how these clocks are racist. But you have made it clear that you are not one such person.
> >
> > If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
> >
> > I had maintained a hope that it was only a certain few members who had set the nasty environment that permeated this place, and that when they died off, things might be reasonably respectful. But clearly I was mistaken. Or rather, I was mistaken in *who* I was identifying as the source of such vile behavior.
> >
> > It could also be concluded that violence is inherently embedded as integral to the human condition, and that if the world population were reduced to just 2 people, one would kill the other.
> >
> > Here again, I would like to think that it would make a world of difference depending on *who* those 2 people were. I am certain that if it were me, I would have absolutely no violence in words or actions toward the other. And if a computer were around, that person might find my decades long records of effort spent on the interwebs motivated by a desire that things might improve, even if just by a little bit.
> >
> > ...by pointing out things like racism that billions of other people appear to be perfectly content in ignoring.
> >
> > You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
<snip>
> >
> > I am sure that there will be those who will be very interested to know just exactly how these clocks are racist. But you have made it clear that you are not one such person.
> >
> > If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
> >
> > I had maintained a hope that it was only a certain few members who had set the nasty environment that permeated this place, and that when they died off, things might be reasonably respectful. But clearly I was mistaken. Or rather, I was mistaken in *who* I was identifying as the source of such vile behavior.
> >
> > It could also be concluded that violence is inherently embedded as integral to the human condition, and that if the world population were reduced to just 2 people, one would kill the other.
> >
> > Here again, I would like to think that it would make a world of difference depending on *who* those 2 people were. I am certain that if it were me, I would have absolutely no violence in words or actions toward the other. And if a computer were around, that person might find my decades long records of effort spent on the interwebs motivated by a desire that things might improve, even if just by a little bit.
> >
> > ...by pointing out things like racism that billions of other people appear to be perfectly content in ignoring.
> >
> > You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
> You're a democrat, aren't you?
Without going into who I have, and have not, voted for...
I know many Republicans who are opposed to racism.
...yet these same people support the use of racist clocks.
The clocks are a non-partisan issue, best I can tell.
Or more accurately, an non-partisan non-issue. Because no one cares about it.
I have *never* seen anyone raise a single objection to the use of such clocks.
I see the current situation to be akin to something like blackface. There was a time when no one questioned this practice. It's just how things were done. Try doing that today, and everyone clearly sees this to be racist. So no one cares about these clocks today, but it is easy to imagine some point of time in the future where awareness will have been raised to the point where such usage will be shunned. And we will look back on these NASA documents with these time references (among many other uses) and people will see very clearly how asleep we are today in 2018 about certain aspects of the racism issue.
~ CT
Peter Stickney
Feb 11, 2018, 12:10:06 PM2/11/18
to
and, perhaps, paranoia.
Consider his "You won't have CT to kick around any more" manifesto from
29 Nov 2001, where the tried, in a passive/aggressive manner to pass
himself off as an SR-71 driving MiG Killer (Something that only exists in
Martin Caiden books) Test Pilot with a purported list of firsts that even
Caiden wouldn't think credible.
I never thought I'd see the day when Henry Spencer, Pat Flannery, OM,
Derek Lyons, John Beaderstat, et al would be gone, and the corridors echo
with the shrieks of Stuffie, jonathan, and Bbo Hallerb.
--
Pete Stickney
“A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures.” ― Daniel Webster
Damien Valentine
Feb 11, 2018, 3:56:08 PM2/11/18
to
On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 3:37:21 PM UTC-5, Dean Markley wrote:
> You're a democrat, aren't you?
With respect, I think we can do without partisan insults. When somebody like this starts claiming they invented the question mark, or accuses chestnuts of being lazy, they're well beyond any comprehensible political opinion anyhow.
> You're a democrat, aren't you?
Stuf4
Feb 11, 2018, 9:08:16 PM2/11/18
to
From Peter Stickney:
As for that old post, there was something from that which pertains to these current batch of posts:
"I have flown multiple simulated shuttle approaches with John Young,"
John Young is no more. But it was sure great to have had him around.
As stated over in that other thread, I was not all that close to him.
But it would have been interesting to hear what he would have had to say about these points about racism. I expect that there are many who were born & bred in the Deep South during his era who were totally blind to such things.
And maybe throughout his years in the military and then at NASA, there was some epiphany that happened in his life that gave him some sense of perspective over the attitudes he was raised with.
And maybe even at some point before taking that last breath, he had the thought...
I could have chosen something other than Stone Mountain.
...or perhaps not.
As for my own accomplishments in my own life, I never got to walk on the Moon. That was the closest I ever got. And along the way, my own epiphany was about how silly such an aspiration was to have. Even though it is fun to fantasize about. It's kinda hard to beat Earth as far as planets go.
It's clear that the most important things in life are relationships, right here, down on Earth. So then the question becomes why would someone persist in engaging in interactions with those who are persistently and consistently abusive? Surely there are better things that someone can do with their time.
The criticism here is somehow being passive-aggressive. But perhaps the accurate problem is more along the line of that thing that has been termed "co-dependence". Being part of the problem by enabling abusive behavior.
And that is a question that I have examined, and rejected. The answer I arrived at is that if I am not contributing to the problem, then I am not responsible for the problem.
SSH is a cesspool. Absolutely atrocious behavior, consistently. Like just today, with calling someone "an idiot", or these other insults having to do with chestnuts, etc.
I have decided that I am perfectly fine with my own actions so long as I am not contributing to the negative aspects. If I can exercise sufficient discipline to maintain my own behavior on the side of being constructive, then the fault for all the nasty stuff is not my own.
In the end, we are all responsible for our own actions.
For those who subscribe to the concept of freewill, even then there is an extremely limited set of variables that we have actual control over. Most of human behavior is a result of genetic & memetic programming. The racist legacy types of stuff that John Young did, I see to be a result of this kind of programming. I did not see him to be a hateful person in any way.
Same with these clocks. All a result of programming, where a disease creeps in, and then gets perpetuated and people get habituated.
Like all of the vile behavior that is so rampant here, across Usenet, and in just about every internet forum, and more generally across the spectrum of human interaction. Or just human behavior.
We are programmed by the examples we are raised around to do things like eat cow muscle for our own pleasure, with absolutely no regard to how horrific slaughterhouses are.
And we use our mouths and our minds as slaughterhouses of people we've decided that we don't like, for whatever reason. Kill with thoughts. Kill with words. It happens every single day. Many many times a day.
All I have control over is myself. And the degree of control that even the most disciplined person has is just a sliver. So that's what I choose to focus on. That sliver.
So part of that sliver manifests in the form of these words that I'm typing, in an effort to invite anyone else who might be interested to possibly have a moment of expanded consciousness, however slight, where awareness to these issues of racism might see the light of day.
I knew going in that the probability is extremely small. I've never let long odds stop me before. Passion and desire are FAR more important than probability.
Take John Young. Of the many billions upon billions of human beings who ever existed, only 12 got to walk on the Moon. And not many more than that ever got to meet those 12. And FAR fewer ever got to be co-workers with those 12. Fewer still as co-workers within the space program, getting to do something like fly space shuttle missions with the person who flew the very first.
So if you go in with the attitude that the odds of that every happening are so slim that it is essentially impossible, then you will be correct. It will never happen.
But if instead you go in with the passion and desire and the hope that it is actually *possible*, regardless of how improbable, then you have just taken the first step of opening up the possibility that this version of reality just might unfold.
And that is how our universe works. It is those who strive toward what is possible who realize the huge breakthroughs and huge accomplishments.
Real life has the potential to be MORE AMAZING than what a person like Martin Caiden can imagine and write into the plot of a fictional book. A perfect example of that happened this week...
Imagine reading a book, or going to see a movie, where this person decides to start a rocket company, and then a decade and a half into this project launches the most powerful rocket in the world, and recovers the boosters to that rocket by landing them back at the launch point in a perfectly synchronized way.
There would be many many people who would have the reaction that this was a bogus story, maybe even demanding their money back from the ticket office for being subjected to such an unrealistic story.
Yet it is not fiction. It is the reality that we live in today, as of this week of February 2018. And it is people like Elon Musk, and people like John Young who make those kinds of things become our reality.
That VERY SLIM SLIVER of humanity that is making a difference. While the vast majority of the rest of humanity is doing mundane stuff like insulting each other on message boards, getting whatever satisfaction that is to be derived from that kind of activity.
So the question is what kind of a person do we want to be? And what kind of legacy do we want to leave behind after we are gone?
I recently heard Keanu Reeves explain his motivation for starting a motorcycle company. Absolutely bizarre for a crazy-wealthy Hollywood actor do get involved in something like that. But it became crystal clear to me that the reason he did this is because he belongs to the same category of people like Musk & Young.
And that is the same category that I choose to strive to be a part of. I want to leave a legacy where someone can google a post I made from 16 years ago and see that it was part of something that someone out there, maybe just one person, might find some inspiration in.
I am totally ok with that. It is my goal to live a full life, and leave a positive legacy. Just today I was contacted by someone who wants me to give guitar lessons to. And I am not going to charge her a penny. The motivation includes the hope that these skills will spread, and perhaps one day she will do the same for someone else. It may lead to absolutely nothing. It might turn out to be an utter waste of my time. But the probability of that will not prevent me from trying.
Just as the probability of my words presented here on this forum are an utter waste of my time does not prevent me from maintaining the hope that they might be helpful to at least one other person out there.
I intend to present the info about these clocks. That too is out of hope that it might be helpful. I won't do that today. Perhaps I will wait a year, as I did with the Debbie Reynolds stuff. Or maybe someone will actually express interest in this particular aspect of space history, in which case I would be glad to share it sooner.
As I had stated on that other thread from so long ago...
Goodbye for now.
~ CT
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 12:37:19 -0800, Dean Markley wrote:
<snip>
> > You're a democrat, aren't you?
>
> No, just an idiot, although he's wandered farther afield into delusion
> and, perhaps, paranoia.
> Consider his "You won't have CT to kick around any more" manifesto from
> 29 Nov 2001, where the tried, in a passive/aggressive manner to pass
> himself off as an SR-71 driving MiG Killer (Something that only exists in
> Martin Caiden books) Test Pilot with a purported list of firsts that even
> Caiden wouldn't think credible.
>
> I never thought I'd see the day when Henry Spencer, Pat Flannery, OM,
> Derek Lyons, John Beaderstat, et al would be gone, and the corridors echo
> with the shrieks of Stuffie, jonathan, and Bbo Hallerb.
You can be as abusive as you want to be. For whatever it is that you get out of it.
>
> No, just an idiot, although he's wandered farther afield into delusion
> and, perhaps, paranoia.
> Consider his "You won't have CT to kick around any more" manifesto from
> 29 Nov 2001, where the tried, in a passive/aggressive manner to pass
> himself off as an SR-71 driving MiG Killer (Something that only exists in
> Martin Caiden books) Test Pilot with a purported list of firsts that even
> Caiden wouldn't think credible.
>
> I never thought I'd see the day when Henry Spencer, Pat Flannery, OM,
> Derek Lyons, John Beaderstat, et al would be gone, and the corridors echo
> with the shrieks of Stuffie, jonathan, and Bbo Hallerb.
As for that old post, there was something from that which pertains to these current batch of posts:
"I have flown multiple simulated shuttle approaches with John Young,"
John Young is no more. But it was sure great to have had him around.
As stated over in that other thread, I was not all that close to him.
But it would have been interesting to hear what he would have had to say about these points about racism. I expect that there are many who were born & bred in the Deep South during his era who were totally blind to such things.
And maybe throughout his years in the military and then at NASA, there was some epiphany that happened in his life that gave him some sense of perspective over the attitudes he was raised with.
And maybe even at some point before taking that last breath, he had the thought...
I could have chosen something other than Stone Mountain.
...or perhaps not.
As for my own accomplishments in my own life, I never got to walk on the Moon. That was the closest I ever got. And along the way, my own epiphany was about how silly such an aspiration was to have. Even though it is fun to fantasize about. It's kinda hard to beat Earth as far as planets go.
It's clear that the most important things in life are relationships, right here, down on Earth. So then the question becomes why would someone persist in engaging in interactions with those who are persistently and consistently abusive? Surely there are better things that someone can do with their time.
The criticism here is somehow being passive-aggressive. But perhaps the accurate problem is more along the line of that thing that has been termed "co-dependence". Being part of the problem by enabling abusive behavior.
And that is a question that I have examined, and rejected. The answer I arrived at is that if I am not contributing to the problem, then I am not responsible for the problem.
SSH is a cesspool. Absolutely atrocious behavior, consistently. Like just today, with calling someone "an idiot", or these other insults having to do with chestnuts, etc.
I have decided that I am perfectly fine with my own actions so long as I am not contributing to the negative aspects. If I can exercise sufficient discipline to maintain my own behavior on the side of being constructive, then the fault for all the nasty stuff is not my own.
In the end, we are all responsible for our own actions.
For those who subscribe to the concept of freewill, even then there is an extremely limited set of variables that we have actual control over. Most of human behavior is a result of genetic & memetic programming. The racist legacy types of stuff that John Young did, I see to be a result of this kind of programming. I did not see him to be a hateful person in any way.
Same with these clocks. All a result of programming, where a disease creeps in, and then gets perpetuated and people get habituated.
Like all of the vile behavior that is so rampant here, across Usenet, and in just about every internet forum, and more generally across the spectrum of human interaction. Or just human behavior.
We are programmed by the examples we are raised around to do things like eat cow muscle for our own pleasure, with absolutely no regard to how horrific slaughterhouses are.
And we use our mouths and our minds as slaughterhouses of people we've decided that we don't like, for whatever reason. Kill with thoughts. Kill with words. It happens every single day. Many many times a day.
All I have control over is myself. And the degree of control that even the most disciplined person has is just a sliver. So that's what I choose to focus on. That sliver.
So part of that sliver manifests in the form of these words that I'm typing, in an effort to invite anyone else who might be interested to possibly have a moment of expanded consciousness, however slight, where awareness to these issues of racism might see the light of day.
I knew going in that the probability is extremely small. I've never let long odds stop me before. Passion and desire are FAR more important than probability.
Take John Young. Of the many billions upon billions of human beings who ever existed, only 12 got to walk on the Moon. And not many more than that ever got to meet those 12. And FAR fewer ever got to be co-workers with those 12. Fewer still as co-workers within the space program, getting to do something like fly space shuttle missions with the person who flew the very first.
So if you go in with the attitude that the odds of that every happening are so slim that it is essentially impossible, then you will be correct. It will never happen.
But if instead you go in with the passion and desire and the hope that it is actually *possible*, regardless of how improbable, then you have just taken the first step of opening up the possibility that this version of reality just might unfold.
And that is how our universe works. It is those who strive toward what is possible who realize the huge breakthroughs and huge accomplishments.
Real life has the potential to be MORE AMAZING than what a person like Martin Caiden can imagine and write into the plot of a fictional book. A perfect example of that happened this week...
Imagine reading a book, or going to see a movie, where this person decides to start a rocket company, and then a decade and a half into this project launches the most powerful rocket in the world, and recovers the boosters to that rocket by landing them back at the launch point in a perfectly synchronized way.
There would be many many people who would have the reaction that this was a bogus story, maybe even demanding their money back from the ticket office for being subjected to such an unrealistic story.
Yet it is not fiction. It is the reality that we live in today, as of this week of February 2018. And it is people like Elon Musk, and people like John Young who make those kinds of things become our reality.
That VERY SLIM SLIVER of humanity that is making a difference. While the vast majority of the rest of humanity is doing mundane stuff like insulting each other on message boards, getting whatever satisfaction that is to be derived from that kind of activity.
So the question is what kind of a person do we want to be? And what kind of legacy do we want to leave behind after we are gone?
I recently heard Keanu Reeves explain his motivation for starting a motorcycle company. Absolutely bizarre for a crazy-wealthy Hollywood actor do get involved in something like that. But it became crystal clear to me that the reason he did this is because he belongs to the same category of people like Musk & Young.
And that is the same category that I choose to strive to be a part of. I want to leave a legacy where someone can google a post I made from 16 years ago and see that it was part of something that someone out there, maybe just one person, might find some inspiration in.
I am totally ok with that. It is my goal to live a full life, and leave a positive legacy. Just today I was contacted by someone who wants me to give guitar lessons to. And I am not going to charge her a penny. The motivation includes the hope that these skills will spread, and perhaps one day she will do the same for someone else. It may lead to absolutely nothing. It might turn out to be an utter waste of my time. But the probability of that will not prevent me from trying.
Just as the probability of my words presented here on this forum are an utter waste of my time does not prevent me from maintaining the hope that they might be helpful to at least one other person out there.
I intend to present the info about these clocks. That too is out of hope that it might be helpful. I won't do that today. Perhaps I will wait a year, as I did with the Debbie Reynolds stuff. Or maybe someone will actually express interest in this particular aspect of space history, in which case I would be glad to share it sooner.
As I had stated on that other thread from so long ago...
Goodbye for now.
~ CT
Dean Markley
Feb 12, 2018, 8:02:08 AM2/12/18
to
Stuf4
Feb 12, 2018, 8:05:51 AM2/12/18
to
From Dean Markley:
It was just an insult insult.
~ CT
~ CT
Stuf4
Feb 13, 2018, 1:11:43 PM2/13/18
to
I wrote:
> As for that old post, there was something from that which pertains to these current batch of posts:
>
> "I have flown multiple simulated shuttle approaches with John Young,"
It is weird to see that list dismissed as Martin Caiden fiction, because
> As for that old post, there was something from that which pertains to these current batch of posts:
>
> "I have flown multiple simulated shuttle approaches with John Young,"
there was a LOT that had been left off of it. Such as:
- Having long talks with Chief Scientist on Apollo Moon Missions
...in his office and elsewhere,
- Having long conversations with Secretary of Military Branch
...in his office, over sipping whiskey at his house, at a huge party, etc
- Having a long walk with Chief of Staff of Military Branch
...questioning him on major policy errors he had made,
- Having lunch with 3-star Admiral, sitting next to Paul Newman
...sharing aircraft carrier stories and other flying stories,
- Being at the Superbowl with NASA families for a major Space Shuttle
anniversary, an event that I had conceived and got special approval for
overturning the decision made by OSD (SecDef),
- Long meeting and discussions with the person who invented the
Personal Computer, who is also heavily involved at NASA JSC,
who was nice enough to tell me the whole story of how his company
pulled it off,
- Face-to-face talk with other computer pioneers like Grace Hopper,
Bob Metcalfe, etc, and "The Li-Ion King" John Goodenough, etc,
- Living for years in a house frequented by Buzz Aldrin among other
Apollo astronauts for big parties and such,
- Speaking face-to-face with Sy Liebergot about his role in Apollo 13
which I have been highly critical of,
- Speaking face-to-face with Jim Oberg, who I admire,
...but have also been critical of,
- Face-to-face with Presidents like George HW Bush & Bill Clinton,
among being with others like Jimmy Carter, George W Bush & Reagan,
let alone Dan Quayle, Hillary Clinton, Barack & Michelle Obama.
- Face-to-face interaction with more than half of the Moonwalkers,
including Neil Armstrong & Buzz Aldrin, doing stuff like giving
a ride from the airport, hanging out at mixers and formal events, etc,
(on top of official co-worker interaction as mentioned in that first post)
- Sitting next to John Young at a meeting in the astronaut office
with the only other people in the room of 20+ folks being other
pilot-astronauts,
- An astronaut give me a ride home from the airport,
- Add to the above others like more than half of the Original 7 to
include John Glenn, Jim Lovell, Fred Haise, Joe Engle, Bob Crippen,
Bruce McCandless, Bob Stewart, Gordon Fullerton,
...working side by side with many CDRs & PLTs.
- Intense face-to-face discussion with Chris Kraft about the
feasibility of sending people to Mars (I was not the one arguing
that it is a good idea, and neither was he, but there were four
of us during that interaction, one of several with Kraft),
- Face-to-face one-on-one discussion with Max Faget, George Mueller,
other face-to-face discussions with Gene Kranz, Jack Garman,
John Aaron, Glynn Lunney, Gerry Griffen, etc
- Having an office several yards from George Abbey's, another office
adjacent to a Secretary of a Military Branch,
- Many meetings with Flight Directors & astronauts, etc, injecting personal
views on tough issues, sometime just three or four people in the room,
most times several dozens of people in the room,
- Achieving better performance than John Young and all other astronauts
at very specific flight test objective,
- Multiple awards for nuclear weapons delivery performance, etc,
pilot tng, to include recognition for aggressive dogfighting skill,
- Direct interaction with CEO & VPs of the largest aerospace companies
to include Boeing & Lockheed Martin, to include multiple one-on-one
office meetings,
- One-on-one office meeting with the leading American Ace from Vietnam,
to include giving him a ride from the airport, doing woodworking
projects with him, etc, and also direct interaction with Steve Ritchie
to include assist with F-4E mission,
- Face-to-face interaction with Doolittle Raiders next to their B-25,
also playing guitar with one of Jimmy Doolittle's grandkids (a fighter
pilot close friend),
- Face-to-face interaction with Dick Rutan & Jeana Yeager after their
non-stop lap around the planet, working near Scaled Composites, having
face-to-face discussion with people like Jim Bede with his BD-10, etc,
- First flight experience in a prop plane instructed by Bob Ettinger,
recipient of the Kincheloe Trophy, the first military pilot to fly
the YF-16,
- Direct interaction with Medal of Honor recipients, to include being a
dinner guest at the house of a Vietnam War MoH recipient,
- Close friends and coworkers with several US Flight Demonstration Squadron
pilots (better known as Blue Angels/Thunderbirds) and even bandmates with
one (he was the bass player, and an amazing singer who has sung the National
Anthem at events like the Indy 500), with another close friend from one
of these teams marrying the son of a Moonwalker,
- Face-to-face discussion with several Nobel laureates, including meetings
in their office, to include one-on-one discussion, sometimes discussing
my research, other times discussing theirs,
- Showering with winner of multiple Superbowl rings, face-to-face discussion
with several team members, standing at the goal line and elsewhere on the
sideline during the Superbowl, catching a ball thrown by the opposing team
QB (one-handed), also with Donovan McNabb, etc,
- Meeting face-to-face with the head coach of the most recent World Series MVP
in his office, meeting Jim Palmer (non MLB setting), Barry Bonds moments
after he set a world record, etc,
- One-on-one interaction with Harlem Globetrotter Sweet Lou Dunbar, also
interacting with Dream Team member Clyde Drexler, being with David Robinson,
at championship game, etc,
- Professional involvement on the track with racecar drivers like Paul Tracy,
Graham Rahal, etc, on trackside with Bobby Rahal, off track with Jackie
Stewart, Emerson Fittipaldi, Danica Patrick, Buddy Rice, Sebastian Vettel,
Daniel Ricciardo, 'DC' Coulthard, etc,
- Face-to-face interaction with several Hollywood stars & directors, to include
Val Kilmer, Jennifer Garner, Tony Scott, Rick Linklater, Elisabeth Shue,
Vanna White, Dolores Hart (gave Elvis his first onscreen kiss), Paul Newman,
to include being backstage with Jenna Jameson, among others,
So that first list was far from complete, and even with the above, a bunch of stuff is being left out, like meeting one-on-one with Peggy Sue, the woman made famous by Buddy Holly. Or that walk I took one day with Les Paul. The first list, as well as the above, were more focused on things that are relevant, or tangentially relevant to space history stuff. So a wealth of music stuff only barely touched on, among many many other life experiences.
I've had friends compare me to Buckaroo Banzai. If a movie was made about my life, I don't know if I'd pay to see it. Most days feel like ordinary days. Kind of boring.
And all the stuff listed here in this forum doesn't even begin to get into the life experiences that I consider to be most important. Loads of stories to share some time in the future, perhaps, if the hostility level ever gets reduced by several orders of magnitude.
So yeah, maybe I'll check back in a year, or whenever, to see if anyone then might be interested in the story of racist clocks that NASA uses to this day. One of many stories that I find fascinating, that no one else seems to care about. History is amazing. But what is perhaps even more amazing is how accurate history gets so distorted, and downright warped. It is refreshing when I find the historians who work diligently to help straighten out such a mess. The current state of space history is a total mess. People today still talk about Challenger as though it was the O-rings that were at fault. I guess that if we are blind to something as simple as racist clocks, then it is totally understandable that people are resistant to hearing accurate facts about things more complicated than clocks. Things like space shuttles.
~ CT
Stuf4
Feb 13, 2018, 1:22:48 PM2/13/18
to
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 12:11:43 PM UTC-6, Stuf4 wrote:
<snip>
My estimate would be that if 10,000,000 people were asked, maybe one person would know the answer. So I am very grateful to have had extensive interaction with the inventor. We got to the Moon with small-sized computers, and today they are everywhere.
~ CT
<snip>
> - Long meeting and discussions with the person who invented the
> Personal Computer, who is also heavily involved at NASA JSC,
> who was nice enough to tell me the whole story of how his company
> pulled it off,
<snip>
> Personal Computer, who is also heavily involved at NASA JSC,
> who was nice enough to tell me the whole story of how his company
> pulled it off,
> History is amazing. But what is perhaps even more amazing is how accurate
> history gets so distorted, and downright warped.
THAT right there is a perfect example of how WARPED history can be. One of the most impactful inventions of the 20th century is the personal computer, yet the VAST MAJORITY of people don't know who invented it. Or rather, they *think* they know, but are totally mistaken. It radically changed our world, yet people don't have a clue.
> history gets so distorted, and downright warped.
My estimate would be that if 10,000,000 people were asked, maybe one person would know the answer. So I am very grateful to have had extensive interaction with the inventor. We got to the Moon with small-sized computers, and today they are everywhere.
~ CT
Stuf4
Feb 13, 2018, 1:36:28 PM2/13/18
to
Oh, I forgot to mention:
- Being in the Apollo MOCR, hearing a knock on the door, I open it, and
in walks Jim Lovell & Fred Haise.
THAT was unexpected. The discussion that ensued was fascinating.
There's also another story of...
- Hearing a knock on the door, I open it, and the person on the other side
being a HUGE surprise. This time at my house, the one Buzz and other Apollo
astronauts frequented, and the day was on the anniversary of Neil & Buzz's
landing.
That would be a story for some other time.
~ CT
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 12:11:43 PM UTC-6, Stuf4 wrote:
- Being in the Apollo MOCR, hearing a knock on the door, I open it, and
in walks Jim Lovell & Fred Haise.
THAT was unexpected. The discussion that ensued was fascinating.
There's also another story of...
- Hearing a knock on the door, I open it, and the person on the other side
being a HUGE surprise. This time at my house, the one Buzz and other Apollo
astronauts frequented, and the day was on the anniversary of Neil & Buzz's
landing.
That would be a story for some other time.
~ CT
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 12:11:43 PM UTC-6, Stuf4 wrote:
Stuf4
Feb 14, 2018, 1:05:58 PM2/14/18
to
- That day I was at Steve Wozniak's house. And then having lunch at Apple
headquarters. Woz & I share a special day. My brother would hang out at
his Segway Polo competitions.
- Giving a pitch at Google headquarters on one of my inventions. Having
one-on-one lunch with an important author who is friends with Sergey & Larry.
- Google HQ is next to NASA Ames. There are the lunches with Center Directors
of NASA Ames, sometimes one-on-one, my recommendations being sought, or me
seeing their advice. The most urgent meeting at NASA Ames HQ was in the
wake of 9/11 to pitch a high tech solution to prevent the issue from
happening ever again (single inventor). Ames being responsible for Air
Traffic Control research. Apollo astronaut John Bull was working there
at the time,
- Close interaction over the course of several months with Curt Michel,
another of the 'forgotten Apollo astronauts',
- Pitching a suite of inventions (again, single inventor) during assignment
as a test pilot, being sent to various key locations across the nation to
promote these concepts at Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, the
Joint Cockpit Office, Edwards AFB Flight Test Center, etc,
- Pitching another invention (single inventor) to Facebook, given feedback that
moving to California as an fb employee was required for them to pursue it.
(It was during this event that "timeline" was first presented),
- Face-to-face discussion with Guenter Wendt. Also Peter Diamandis,
Bob Zubrin, Curt Newport, Sergei Krikalev, Richard Garriott,
Andrew Chaikin ...face-to-face discussion with maybe half a dozen members of
this forum, to include close working relationship with adjacent offices at
major aerospace company, to include social interaction like lunches, dinners,
getting together to perform music (I'm glad to know that people are MUCH
nicer interacting in person than what typically happens here virtually),
- Visiting Nancy Pelosi's office to give her information on another idea
(single inventor) with a very positive impact to not only her voter base, but
her entire state, and inspirational to the entire country and people of every
nation. One of the Senators from California, a close friend, was very
impressed with the idea,
- Close family ties to top official in a foreign government. Being with
Eduard Shevardnadze, Jim Baker, Nelson Mandela, Barry Goldwater, having
Tom DeLay come by my house (again, the same house frequented by Buzz),
- Regularly visiting the house of one of the grandkids of Prescott Bush, so
a close relation to a couple presidents, governors, etc,
- Hanging out at Franklin Chang-Diaz's very nice lakeshore house, being a
houseguest at Lockheed Martin VP, him visiting my house, visiting the
spectacular lakeshore houses of other astronauts like the Fisher's and
Jerry Linenger, etc (houses like Neil & Buzz's were quite modest by
comparison),
- Living in the same neighborhood as the bombardier who dropped the last
atomic bomb, being friends with one of Paul Tibbets' close relatives.
Being entrusted with the delivery of megaton nuclear bombs & missiles,
certified as an instructor to teach others to do the same,
- Getting to know Ilan Ramon during his days as a fighter pilot, years before
NASA ever looked at him (he was involved in destroying the Iraqi nuclear
power plant in '81), then helping to train him for STS-107,
- Getting to know several astronauts long before they became astronauts,
going as far back as being teenagers together, being close friends with
winners of things like the Mackay Trophy, here too going back as far as
being teenagers together,
- Being close friends with crazy wealthy multi-billionaire families, like
motion picture tycoon (responsible for making Apollo 13, among many many
others), here too going back to teenage years. These are people with
an elevator in their house, kinda fun to ride,
- Friends with person who started a multi-billion dollar insurance company
(friends since teenage years), going through parachute training together,
- Friends with others since teenage years who are "mere" multi-millionaires,
one making their money in high tech stock options, another in medical,
- Friends with Olympic medalist, going back to our childhood, and schoolmates
with other multiple Olympic gold medalists (six golds between two of them,
let alone silvers),
- Having personal friends who are test pilots on SpaceShipTwo, going back to
when we were teenagers,
None of these people were involved with the invention of the PC. Not Woz. Not the others. It did not happen in California. (Although the inventors did work hard to try to get California involved, Intel failed to come through.) As indicated earlier, it was actually NASA people who pulled it off. Kind of crazy that NASA does not promote the story themselves. It's a great story.
- One-on-one discussions with John Young about selecting and developing
computers for the Space Shuttle were interesting as well.
~ CT
Scott M. Kozel
Feb 14, 2018, 9:40:50 PM2/14/18
to
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 1:05:58 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
>
> Also forgot to mention...
>
> - That day I was at Steve Wozniak's house. And then having lunch at Apple
> headquarters. Woz & I share a special day. My brother would hang out at
> his Segway Polo competitions.
>
> - Giving a pitch at Google headquarters on one of my inventions. Having
> one-on-one lunch with an important author who is friends with Sergey & Larry.
Did you smoke a reefer today?
>
> Also forgot to mention...
>
> - That day I was at Steve Wozniak's house. And then having lunch at Apple
> headquarters. Woz & I share a special day. My brother would hang out at
> his Segway Polo competitions.
>
> - Giving a pitch at Google headquarters on one of my inventions. Having
> one-on-one lunch with an important author who is friends with Sergey & Larry.
Stuf4
Feb 14, 2018, 11:17:09 PM2/14/18
to
From Scott M. Kozel:
IKR.
"You can tell it's real because it looks so fake." - Elon Musk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1vAfykrQRw&t=25s
Probably the least logical thing I've ever heard him say.
~ CT
"You can tell it's real because it looks so fake." - Elon Musk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1vAfykrQRw&t=25s
Probably the least logical thing I've ever heard him say.
~ CT
Fred J. McCall
Feb 16, 2018, 9:28:41 AM2/16/18
to
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
>
You've never posted your actual name here because you are a coward who
>
>If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
>
doesn't want to be associated with the preposterous shite that he
spews here.
>
>You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
>
racist, particularly when they're screaming about preposterous things
like "racist clocks" and "racist geography".
Stuf4
Feb 19, 2018, 2:36:39 PM2/19/18
to
From Fred J. McCall:
I would much prefer that I never spent a single minute talking about myself here. To me, those things are unimportant. The position I have persistently presented is that the validity of any argument stands upon the strength of the facts that support the argument. Shifting the focus to the person, and away from the points the person has made, has always struck me as a diversion.
Peter has raised a post from 17 years ago. And I responded to that. If this topic never comes up again, that would be perfectly fine with me.
Now for the next person from ssh I am with in person, if you want to know more about me, I'd be glad to share stories of my life experience. But my purpose here on this little corner of Usenet is focused on the topic of Space History. And I'd much prefer to keep it this way.
One major reason (which also has been explained elsewhere in this thread) has to do with the hostile environment that is so prevalent here. I remain open to the possibility that this might change at some point in the future.
> >You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
> >
>
> It frequently IS the person "pointing out racism" who is the actual
> racist, particularly when they're screaming about preposterous things
> like "racist clocks" and "racist geography".
The founding of the 20th century KKK at Stone Mountain is a simple straightforward fact. The landing of Apollo 16 at "Stone Mountain" one month after the Confederate Memorial was declared completed is another simple straightforward fact.
This forum has been presented with absolutely irrefutable objectively verifiable data. Time and time again.
And racist clocks is hardly the first time that an assertion I have presented here has been vehemently rejected *prior to* the first shred of evidence being presented.
Time and time again I have seen members of this forum **TRIGGERED** over very simple facts that do not fit into the person's world view. The rational approach would be to take a step back, reassess, and then adjust one's world view in order to conform to the basic facts at hand.
But instead what happens is that people go into a type of hyper-emotional rejection ...call it "Rottweiler Mode". Here the self-preservation strategy turns full blown ad hominem. Thought being: "I get to keep precious my world view, regardless of how invisible its clothing has been proven to be, so long as I can slay the messenger by way of a barrage of insults, degradations, and morass of trivial irrelevant noise."
Responses presented as "counter arguments" take the form of:
- "This is not a forum" ...thereby nullifying all of the facts presented,
- "You are a conspiracy theorist" ...as though no conspiracies have ever happened,
- "You hide behind a pseudonym, and this makes you a coward", and
- Turning the accurate facts around 180-degrees and continue to gaslight the messenger until asphyxiation turns fatal.
I've been getting gaslighted and cyberbullied here at SSH for well into my 2nd decade now. Some of the more toxic members have died off. But the general attitude remains the same:
Absolute refusal to accept very basic facts.
The list of times this has happened is extremely long:
- Simple facts that show how Armstrong had been groomed to be first on the Moon,
(this was the first 'freak out' that people here went through because of
clear info I had presented ...just *one week* into my active membership).
- "Zero gravity" is a bogus term, as no regions of zero gravity exist anywhere
in our Solar System.
- NASA was created as a nuclear warfare terrorist organization, designed to give
a premiere showcase to the might of the US nuclear arsenal of ICBMs, first
under the auspices of launching satellites, and then followed up with human
beings launched as "placebo nuclear warheads". The primary purpose of the
civilian space agency was an extension of the military, to function in the
role of Nuclear Power Projection while maintaining plausible deniability of
that role.
- Etc, etc, etc... (including facts on Apollo 1, A13, Challenger and Columbia)
- Again in 2017, presenting facts on how Debbie Reynolds played a key role in
space history.
- And now once again in 2018, in presenting these very simple facts about
Stone Mountain.
This is a timeframe that has spanned 17 years here. And it is absolutely fascinating to know how society has evolved (/devolved) during this period.
Repeated rejection of clear facts has become the norm, taking hold of the highest office in this country (ironically, with the help of the Russians/FSU). Despite all evidence pointing in one direction, the standard strategy on this global stage has become the exact same one that has been so prevalent here on SSH: Turn the conclusion around 180-degrees, and then repeat this story until all opposition has been drowned in the ensuing noise ("No, *you're* the racist").
While a person who strives to think rationally might have a very difficult time understanding why so many people act this way, the answer is quite simple:
PSYCHOLOGICAL INERTIA
We are creatures of habit. Many of us are incapable of evolving. This is not just the story of human beings. It is the story of life itself, going all the way back to slime molds. Human beings and slime molds share a common ancestor. There were certain members of that life form that were able to adapt to changes in the environment. But the vast majority were NOT able to. They remained at that level, or died off completely.
Here in SSH the very same holds. Even after it has been clearly shown that the environment is NOT what people believed it to be, the vast majority of people will be unwilling and unable to adapt to this new environment.
The story of evolution is that...
THE VAST MAJORITY GET LEFT BEHIND.
And so it is when the environment of John Young and racism gets illuminated. Most life forms will retreat into the shadows and go into full-blown defensive mode, attacking anything and everything that threatens its existence.
...when the clear solution is to simply adapt to this information.
Change happens slowly. Sometimes imperceptibly slowly. But over this particular 17 year period, we can see significant change. It has now been firmly established in society... the general understanding that the Space Race was driven by the nuclear threat. People who say things like "zero gravity" are now seen by the majority of people to be ignorant.
THIS IS PROGRESS!
Over these past 17 years, we have seen major change take root. Education has been happening. Evolution has been happening. We can clearly see where the tide has been rising.
It is easy to predict a future 17 years from now ...that would be 2035... when NASA has implemented a dedication of this "Freedom Bell" at the landing site of Apollo 16, adjacent to Stone Mountain. Where the majority of people will clearly see the racist roots of what John Young had done.
And in 2035, it might also be that NASA and others will have stopped using racist clocks.
~ CT
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
> >
>
> You've never posted your actual name here because you are a coward who
> doesn't want to be associated with the preposterous shite that he
> spews here.
I've already stated (elsewhere in this thread) that I've met face-to-face with several members of this forum. Roughly half a dozen people, including authors Sy Liebergot, Andrew Chaiken and Jim Oberg on more than one occasion, among others here who are not so famous. I've interacted face-to-face many times with at least one other member here. I've posted my phone number here at ssh. I've posted loads of other personal info.
>
> >
> >If you have no interest in this story, then you have the option to never again click on it. But what is apparent is that your interest is in verbal harassment of me. And it is because of behavior such as yours that I have never posted my actual name here at ssh. I learned how vile human beings can be to other human beings on internet forums way back in the 90s.
> >
>
> You've never posted your actual name here because you are a coward who
> doesn't want to be associated with the preposterous shite that he
> spews here.
I would much prefer that I never spent a single minute talking about myself here. To me, those things are unimportant. The position I have persistently presented is that the validity of any argument stands upon the strength of the facts that support the argument. Shifting the focus to the person, and away from the points the person has made, has always struck me as a diversion.
Peter has raised a post from 17 years ago. And I responded to that. If this topic never comes up again, that would be perfectly fine with me.
Now for the next person from ssh I am with in person, if you want to know more about me, I'd be glad to share stories of my life experience. But my purpose here on this little corner of Usenet is focused on the topic of Space History. And I'd much prefer to keep it this way.
One major reason (which also has been explained elsewhere in this thread) has to do with the hostile environment that is so prevalent here. I remain open to the possibility that this might change at some point in the future.
> >You are so keen to see that it is actually the person pointing out racism who is the problem.
> >
>
> It frequently IS the person "pointing out racism" who is the actual
> racist, particularly when they're screaming about preposterous things
> like "racist clocks" and "racist geography".
This forum has been presented with absolutely irrefutable objectively verifiable data. Time and time again.
And racist clocks is hardly the first time that an assertion I have presented here has been vehemently rejected *prior to* the first shred of evidence being presented.
Time and time again I have seen members of this forum **TRIGGERED** over very simple facts that do not fit into the person's world view. The rational approach would be to take a step back, reassess, and then adjust one's world view in order to conform to the basic facts at hand.
But instead what happens is that people go into a type of hyper-emotional rejection ...call it "Rottweiler Mode". Here the self-preservation strategy turns full blown ad hominem. Thought being: "I get to keep precious my world view, regardless of how invisible its clothing has been proven to be, so long as I can slay the messenger by way of a barrage of insults, degradations, and morass of trivial irrelevant noise."
Responses presented as "counter arguments" take the form of:
- "This is not a forum" ...thereby nullifying all of the facts presented,
- "You are a conspiracy theorist" ...as though no conspiracies have ever happened,
- "You hide behind a pseudonym, and this makes you a coward", and
- Turning the accurate facts around 180-degrees and continue to gaslight the messenger until asphyxiation turns fatal.
I've been getting gaslighted and cyberbullied here at SSH for well into my 2nd decade now. Some of the more toxic members have died off. But the general attitude remains the same:
Absolute refusal to accept very basic facts.
The list of times this has happened is extremely long:
- Simple facts that show how Armstrong had been groomed to be first on the Moon,
(this was the first 'freak out' that people here went through because of
clear info I had presented ...just *one week* into my active membership).
- "Zero gravity" is a bogus term, as no regions of zero gravity exist anywhere
in our Solar System.
- NASA was created as a nuclear warfare terrorist organization, designed to give
a premiere showcase to the might of the US nuclear arsenal of ICBMs, first
under the auspices of launching satellites, and then followed up with human
beings launched as "placebo nuclear warheads". The primary purpose of the
civilian space agency was an extension of the military, to function in the
role of Nuclear Power Projection while maintaining plausible deniability of
that role.
- Etc, etc, etc... (including facts on Apollo 1, A13, Challenger and Columbia)
- Again in 2017, presenting facts on how Debbie Reynolds played a key role in
space history.
- And now once again in 2018, in presenting these very simple facts about
Stone Mountain.
This is a timeframe that has spanned 17 years here. And it is absolutely fascinating to know how society has evolved (/devolved) during this period.
Repeated rejection of clear facts has become the norm, taking hold of the highest office in this country (ironically, with the help of the Russians/FSU). Despite all evidence pointing in one direction, the standard strategy on this global stage has become the exact same one that has been so prevalent here on SSH: Turn the conclusion around 180-degrees, and then repeat this story until all opposition has been drowned in the ensuing noise ("No, *you're* the racist").
While a person who strives to think rationally might have a very difficult time understanding why so many people act this way, the answer is quite simple:
PSYCHOLOGICAL INERTIA
We are creatures of habit. Many of us are incapable of evolving. This is not just the story of human beings. It is the story of life itself, going all the way back to slime molds. Human beings and slime molds share a common ancestor. There were certain members of that life form that were able to adapt to changes in the environment. But the vast majority were NOT able to. They remained at that level, or died off completely.
Here in SSH the very same holds. Even after it has been clearly shown that the environment is NOT what people believed it to be, the vast majority of people will be unwilling and unable to adapt to this new environment.
The story of evolution is that...
THE VAST MAJORITY GET LEFT BEHIND.
And so it is when the environment of John Young and racism gets illuminated. Most life forms will retreat into the shadows and go into full-blown defensive mode, attacking anything and everything that threatens its existence.
...when the clear solution is to simply adapt to this information.
Change happens slowly. Sometimes imperceptibly slowly. But over this particular 17 year period, we can see significant change. It has now been firmly established in society... the general understanding that the Space Race was driven by the nuclear threat. People who say things like "zero gravity" are now seen by the majority of people to be ignorant.
THIS IS PROGRESS!
Over these past 17 years, we have seen major change take root. Education has been happening. Evolution has been happening. We can clearly see where the tide has been rising.
It is easy to predict a future 17 years from now ...that would be 2035... when NASA has implemented a dedication of this "Freedom Bell" at the landing site of Apollo 16, adjacent to Stone Mountain. Where the majority of people will clearly see the racist roots of what John Young had done.
And in 2035, it might also be that NASA and others will have stopped using racist clocks.
~ CT
Stuf4
Dec 27, 2021, 11:06:06 PM12/27/21
to
Desmond Tutu died yesterday.
Now that is not a name that is typically associated with Space History. But he is intimately connected to the racist clocks that NASA uses, from its very beginnings in 1958 through to this very day, with no end in sight.
I have been extremely patient with this particular issue. It's been nearly 4 years since it has been raised.
Absolutely no one has expressed interest when it was first raised, but perhaps today someone would like to know this persistent form of racism that permeates NASA. No one at all questions it. Just like the Stone Mountain up on the Moon. Nobody cares that NASA has inextricably tied their own history to the history of the KKK.
I don't think that even Desmond Tutu cared. Well, I expect that he actually *would have* cared. The problem is that just about everyone is oblivious. So much so that every single member of this forum who has piped in on this issue to date has vehemently rejected the notion. So much so that no one even wants to hear the simple fact.
Everyone is actually well aware that NASA uses these racist clocks. It's just that no one has had the epiphany that it is in fact racist. Just like those certain NASA aircraft that were highlighted in that first post offered here in this thread. BOTH are examples of the MOST HEINOUS GENOCIDES in human history. And NASA continues to support them both, albeit unrecognized and unacknowledged. Yet both are right there, in plain sight. Unapologized for. Both the NASA clocks and these NASA aircraft.
I had called them out as racist. But it is really far beyond just racism. As highlighted now, these things that NASA continues to do is nothing short of egregious support for this history of GENOCIDE. So the title of this thread should actually be:
"...Pro-Genocide Clocks, Pro-Genocide Aircraft, etc".
And the fundamental issue here is whether or not NASA wishes to continue their support for this horrific history of genocide.
If the answer is 'no', then they will make these changes. Across the board.
It would be a fitting legacy in this wake of a person as historically significant as Desmond Tutu. A person who dedicated so much energy throughout his life in striving to turn the tide against racism. Much was accomplished throughout his lifespan, 1931-2021. But there is still much more left to do. The open question is whether or not NASA cares. It has been made absolutely clear that no one here in this forum cares. Or maybe today, now on this cusp of 2022, someone does.
Above, I have written words that could be interpreted to imply that Tutu was oblivious to the clocks. Actually I am *certain* that he was aware. I don't see how he could not have been. While I haven't heard of any time that he spoke publicly about this issue, it would not surprise me to learn that he did. It is very easy for me to imagine him having said:
"NASA, how bout you stop using your racist clocks."
It is far more than just NASA who maintains this practice. Both genocides have continued support in practices that permeate the military, along with NASA. And no one cares.
~ CT
Now that is not a name that is typically associated with Space History. But he is intimately connected to the racist clocks that NASA uses, from its very beginnings in 1958 through to this very day, with no end in sight.
I have been extremely patient with this particular issue. It's been nearly 4 years since it has been raised.
Absolutely no one has expressed interest when it was first raised, but perhaps today someone would like to know this persistent form of racism that permeates NASA. No one at all questions it. Just like the Stone Mountain up on the Moon. Nobody cares that NASA has inextricably tied their own history to the history of the KKK.
I don't think that even Desmond Tutu cared. Well, I expect that he actually *would have* cared. The problem is that just about everyone is oblivious. So much so that every single member of this forum who has piped in on this issue to date has vehemently rejected the notion. So much so that no one even wants to hear the simple fact.
Everyone is actually well aware that NASA uses these racist clocks. It's just that no one has had the epiphany that it is in fact racist. Just like those certain NASA aircraft that were highlighted in that first post offered here in this thread. BOTH are examples of the MOST HEINOUS GENOCIDES in human history. And NASA continues to support them both, albeit unrecognized and unacknowledged. Yet both are right there, in plain sight. Unapologized for. Both the NASA clocks and these NASA aircraft.
I had called them out as racist. But it is really far beyond just racism. As highlighted now, these things that NASA continues to do is nothing short of egregious support for this history of GENOCIDE. So the title of this thread should actually be:
"...Pro-Genocide Clocks, Pro-Genocide Aircraft, etc".
And the fundamental issue here is whether or not NASA wishes to continue their support for this horrific history of genocide.
If the answer is 'no', then they will make these changes. Across the board.
It would be a fitting legacy in this wake of a person as historically significant as Desmond Tutu. A person who dedicated so much energy throughout his life in striving to turn the tide against racism. Much was accomplished throughout his lifespan, 1931-2021. But there is still much more left to do. The open question is whether or not NASA cares. It has been made absolutely clear that no one here in this forum cares. Or maybe today, now on this cusp of 2022, someone does.
Above, I have written words that could be interpreted to imply that Tutu was oblivious to the clocks. Actually I am *certain* that he was aware. I don't see how he could not have been. While I haven't heard of any time that he spoke publicly about this issue, it would not surprise me to learn that he did. It is very easy for me to imagine him having said:
"NASA, how bout you stop using your racist clocks."
It is far more than just NASA who maintains this practice. Both genocides have continued support in practices that permeate the military, along with NASA. And no one cares.
~ CT
Stuf4
Jan 1, 2022, 4:01:34 PM1/1/22
to
On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 9:06:06 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
> Desmond Tutu died yesterday.
>
> Now that is not a name that is typically associated with Space History. But he is intimately connected to the racist clocks that NASA uses, from its very beginnings in 1958 through to this very day, with no end in sight.
...
> Desmond Tutu died yesterday.
>
> Now that is not a name that is typically associated with Space History. But he is intimately connected to the racist clocks that NASA uses, from its very beginnings in 1958 through to this very day, with no end in sight.
> It is very easy for me to imagine him having said:
>
> "NASA, how bout you stop using your racist clocks."
Here is Susan (Still) Kilrain talking about these Racist Clocks that NASA uses, without any hint of awareness whatsoever that they are indeed racist:
>
> "NASA, how bout you stop using your racist clocks."
Z is for Zulu: Blast Off with an Astronaut into the ABC's of Space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPNutgM7yso&t=38s
Maybe someday people will gain some awareness of the pro-genocide aircraft that NASA flies as well.
Awareness is only the first step. Doing something about it would be the step that matters.
And clearly Susan has not approached anything close to taking this first step.
Everyone here at ssh who has voiced their opinion on this is likewise nowhere close.
Today the USA has had a black president. We currently have a black-Indian vice president. But there are two kinds of 'Indian', as no one cared enough over five centuries to correct the terminology mistake. Half a millennium. And there are people today who still refer to these indigenous peoples of this continent as 'Indians'. Then there are those who have a semi-awareness of the problem in doing that, and opt for this other term 'Native American', as though these peoples might feel better about being named after a 15th century Italian explorer. Canada seems to have a handle on it with the much more respectful term 'First Nations'. So today the USA has its very first Cabinet Secretary of indigenous blood. Any chance that Deb Haaland will voice her complaint about how NASA, etc have these aircraft that are pro-genocide? I haven't heard a single word on this to date. It is quite likely that she does not consider it to be an important enough issue for her to make any waves over. After all, you do not rise to the top of a system steeped in racism by rocking the boat.
Likewise, I never heard Desmond Tutu ever voice any complaint about how NASA, etc ubiquitously uses these racist clocks. Here was a man who spoke Zulu. Yet as far as I know, he never said anything publicly on this. He apparently died having consigned himself to the reality that no one was ever going to do anything about removing this egregious form of racism up through the year 2021.
But it is now 2022. Today is a new beginning. And we yet again have this opportunity to define the things we care about. And also these other things that no one cares about. So are we going to continue in this pro-racist fashion? Continuing to use these practices that are nothing short of being pro-genocide?
Again, awareness is the first step. And on these particular issues, maybe this year 2022 will see us make some progress toward taking this first step. That could open the door for the human species making a giant leap in progress.
~ CT
Dean Markley
Jan 6, 2022, 2:21:19 PM1/6/22
to
Stuf4
Jan 7, 2022, 10:04:45 AM1/7/22
to
On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 12:21:19 PM UTC-7, dama...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 4:01:34 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
> > On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 9:06:06 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
> > > Desmond Tutu died yesterday.
<snip>
> On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 4:01:34 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
> > On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 9:06:06 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
> > > Desmond Tutu died yesterday.
> > Likewise, I never heard Desmond Tutu ever voice any complaint about how NASA, etc ubiquitously uses these racist clocks. Here was a man who spoke Zulu. Yet as far as I know, he never said anything publicly on this. He apparently died having consigned himself to the reality that no one was ever going to do anything about removing this egregious form of racism up through the year 2021.
> >
> > But it is now 2022. Today is a new beginning. And we yet again have this opportunity to define the things we care about. And also these other things that no one cares about. So are we going to continue in this pro-racist fashion? Continuing to use these practices that are nothing short of being pro-genocide?
> >
> > Again, awareness is the first step. And on these particular issues, maybe this year 2022 will see us make some progress toward taking this first step. That could open the door for the human species making a giant leap in progress.
> The only awareness needed here is for you to look in a mirror and ask that person to get help. Sheesh.
I've already expressed the opinion that Desmond Tutu probably cared about this issue. It is apparent that there are a critical mass of people in the USA and elsewhere, along with the untold masses of people who are oblivious or apathetic so that views like you and others have expressed here to hold up NASA itself from caring about ending such racist practices.
As though if NASA were to stop using racist clocks, and to change the name of Stone Mountain up on the Moon, and change the name of certain aircraft, there would be a mass of people who would gather to storm NASA Headquarters in the effort to prevent such changes from happening.
I can guess which side of the Tiki Torch Crowd certain members of ssh here would join.
Yeah, *I* am the one who is the problem here. The emperor's clothes look absolutely wonderful.
Yall can just keep on telling yourselves that.
You might be in the vocal majority today.
But it is an easy prediction to carry the vision
of the Dream that racism will not continue to
go on forever.
~ CT
Pat Willard
Jan 8, 2022, 6:13:45 PM1/8/22
to
I've seen this kind of thing before. This is a university psychology department race-relations project. What is done is to put race-related content out there, and evaluate the responses in the racist context of the project administrator. This was done about five years ago on Facebook. On Facebook, they used Middle Eastern names and photos on a space-related page. The persons were selling something not related to space. They went away when their posts were identified as being a research project.
Dean Markley
Jan 10, 2022, 7:29:08 AM1/10/22
to
On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 6:13:45 PM UTC-5, Pat Willard wrote:
> I've seen this kind of thing before. This is a university psychology department race-relations project. What is done is to put race-related content out there, and evaluate the responses in the racist context of the project administrator. This was done about five years ago on Facebook. On Facebook, they used Middle Eastern names and photos on a space-related page. The persons were selling something not related to space. They went away when their posts were identified as being a research project.
Maybe, but this has been going on for almost 4 years. If the simplest theory is the most likely, than Stuf4 is just another internet troll.
> I've seen this kind of thing before. This is a university psychology department race-relations project. What is done is to put race-related content out there, and evaluate the responses in the racist context of the project administrator. This was done about five years ago on Facebook. On Facebook, they used Middle Eastern names and photos on a space-related page. The persons were selling something not related to space. They went away when their posts were identified as being a research project.
Stuf4
Jan 13, 2022, 1:01:12 PM1/13/22
to
For more than 2 decades now, I've been well aware of the hyper-toxicity here on this ssh forum. I do not share these inputs for the vocal majority of close-minded members. Usenet has this particular advantage of being an un-erasable archive of internet history. And my reason for posting has been with the expectation that there are certain people, maybe even just one person, who might actually be open to considering ideas that don't conform with the conventional wisdom.
It was in my very first thread which I posted concrete info which challenged conventional wisdom. And I was quickly branded as 'a troll'. It was apparent then, as it is now, that this is just a lazy method to attempt to discredit ideas which people have trouble swallowing.
The other part of that huge backlash from the very beginning here was me being labeled as a "Conspiracy Theorist". Yet more lazy strategies in this effort to dismiss certain types of info which go against encrusted mental inertia.
In the ideal world, if I post things that people see as being inaccurate, I would be presented with a sound rebuttal as to the reasons, say, why using 'Zulu Time' is not racist. I would be totally open to considering any and all rational counter-ideas. To this, and every single other notion I've presented here which has been vehemently rejected.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
One of the biggest Space History explanations presented here is how the Space Race was driven by the Nuclear Threat. 20-something years ago, no one was ready to hear that. But today in 2022, I'm quite glad to know that we are in the 3rd Stage. Most people accept this as obvious. I don't need to rub anyone's nose in it. The archives are all there for anyone who cares to examine the reaction.
And it is clear that today, we're still in the 1st Stage when it comes to Zulu Time racism. And about the 0th Stage when it comes to pro-genocide names like "Iroquois" & "Chinook" & "Comanche" aircraft that have been in the NASA stable. Perhaps it will take another 2 Decades for people to come around on those issues.
Or it's possible that no one ever will.
The other salient quote here is that:
"The victors write the history books." - (attributed to various sources, dating back to the 1800s)
The modern take on that is:
"Hollywood will make the movies."
And so the uneducated masses will accept the garbage distortions in movies like Apollo 13 and blindly accept them as fact.
While the people who care about accurate history will make the effort to read the source documents. And those who care deeply will have studied so much that they will develop an ability to read between the lines within these source documents.
Then when this info is presented to the first-level group, those who go so far as to swallow the story presented on the big screen, they freak out.
But in the case of Racist Clocks, I would actually recommend the classic 1964 Michael Caine movie 'Zulu' as an excellent starting point. It helps to keep in mind that this screenplay was based on an article titled "Slaughter in the Sun". Next week marks the 58th anniversary of when 'Zulu' was released. Watch it today with 2020s vision, and I expect many people might be inclined to tell NASA folks like Susan Still...
"Um, yeah, maybe we should stop doing that."
It's high time that Zulu Time be relegated to the dustbin of history. Closing yet another embarrassing chapter of things we, as a human species, have done.
~ CT
It was in my very first thread which I posted concrete info which challenged conventional wisdom. And I was quickly branded as 'a troll'. It was apparent then, as it is now, that this is just a lazy method to attempt to discredit ideas which people have trouble swallowing.
The other part of that huge backlash from the very beginning here was me being labeled as a "Conspiracy Theorist". Yet more lazy strategies in this effort to dismiss certain types of info which go against encrusted mental inertia.
In the ideal world, if I post things that people see as being inaccurate, I would be presented with a sound rebuttal as to the reasons, say, why using 'Zulu Time' is not racist. I would be totally open to considering any and all rational counter-ideas. To this, and every single other notion I've presented here which has been vehemently rejected.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
One of the biggest Space History explanations presented here is how the Space Race was driven by the Nuclear Threat. 20-something years ago, no one was ready to hear that. But today in 2022, I'm quite glad to know that we are in the 3rd Stage. Most people accept this as obvious. I don't need to rub anyone's nose in it. The archives are all there for anyone who cares to examine the reaction.
And it is clear that today, we're still in the 1st Stage when it comes to Zulu Time racism. And about the 0th Stage when it comes to pro-genocide names like "Iroquois" & "Chinook" & "Comanche" aircraft that have been in the NASA stable. Perhaps it will take another 2 Decades for people to come around on those issues.
Or it's possible that no one ever will.
The other salient quote here is that:
"The victors write the history books." - (attributed to various sources, dating back to the 1800s)
The modern take on that is:
"Hollywood will make the movies."
And so the uneducated masses will accept the garbage distortions in movies like Apollo 13 and blindly accept them as fact.
While the people who care about accurate history will make the effort to read the source documents. And those who care deeply will have studied so much that they will develop an ability to read between the lines within these source documents.
Then when this info is presented to the first-level group, those who go so far as to swallow the story presented on the big screen, they freak out.
But in the case of Racist Clocks, I would actually recommend the classic 1964 Michael Caine movie 'Zulu' as an excellent starting point. It helps to keep in mind that this screenplay was based on an article titled "Slaughter in the Sun". Next week marks the 58th anniversary of when 'Zulu' was released. Watch it today with 2020s vision, and I expect many people might be inclined to tell NASA folks like Susan Still...
"Um, yeah, maybe we should stop doing that."
It's high time that Zulu Time be relegated to the dustbin of history. Closing yet another embarrassing chapter of things we, as a human species, have done.
~ CT
0 new messages