John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?

[Stuf4]

John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.

No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.

With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.

John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.

Was John Young racist?

And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <87f9b114-439c-4180...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
you have to support this extraordinary claim?

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <87f9b114-439c-4180...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> >
> > John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
> > was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
> > particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an
> > important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
> >
> > No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
> >
> > With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
> > throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
> > flag on this.
> >
> > John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
> > alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
> > surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
> > this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
> > months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
> > this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
> > for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
> >
> > Was John Young racist?
> >
> > And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
> > his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
> > doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
> > myself, as much as I'd like to be there.

> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
> you have to support this extraordinary claim?

As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:

https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young

Why does no one else see this? Or maybe everyone does, and like the emperor's
clothes, they'd all just prefer that we remain silent about what is so obvious.

Martin Luther King Jr famously spoke out against this brand of racism in his I
Have A Dream speech. MLK's vision was that racism would decline with
asymptotic decay toward nothingness. But NASA didn't fully comply. Instead
they supported John Young and what he did to promote racism.

In the same year that MLK was assassinated, humanity flew its first mission to
the Moon. And maybe it was better that MLK was not around to see NASA
prominently establish racist symbolism on the Moon.

Here we are 50 years later, and NASA still continues to promote this obvious
racism. Obvious to me, at least. It's right there on that tribute page. And
you don't have to read a single word to see it.

For anyone who may not remember the specific words from MLK's most iconic
speech, here is the 'Let Freedom Ring' conclusion ...the last 90 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yThJm7Wv7Q

Today is Martin Luther King Day. The national holiday honoring the anniversary
of his birth 89 years ago. Apollo 16 launched on the 9th anniversary of MLK's
Letter from Birmingham Jail. That start of the penultimate moonwalk mission
happened 4 years and a week from the day of MLK's funeral. The mission ended on
Coretta Scott King's 45th birthday, which was also 111 years from the day that
Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus at the start of the US Civil
War.

The first person in space, Yuri Gagarin, launched on the 100th anniversary of
the firing on Fort Sumter. John Young's STS-1 mission happened exactly 20 years
later, to the very day. "One score", as Lincoln would have said.

These are all curious coincidences that speak to the big picture that the Space
Race was a battle for the high ground in the nuclear age of ICBMs and the Cold
War. One set of values came with authoritarianism, oppression and slavery,
while the other claimed to promote freedom from such oppression and freedom
from slavery.

The day that John Young first set foot on the Moon was the 136th anniversary of
the Battle of San Jacinto, which established Texas independence. This battle
was commemorated by naming US Navy ships after it, including the aircraft
carrier that George HW Bush flew his TBF Avenger off of. Here is a photo of
George Bush looking on as John Young is presented with the NASA Distinguished
Service Medal after his STS-1 mission:
http://www.johnwyoung.org/bio/enlarge-bio/jy3001.htm


It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
legacy of those who were pro-slavery.

No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.

~ CT

[Snidely]

Stuf4 speculated:
> From Jeff Findley:

>> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
>> you have to support this extraordinary claim?
>
> As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
> In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
> over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
> announcement:
>
> https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young

I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.

Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.

(That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
the shuttle era.)

/dps

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

[Jeff Findley]

In article <4e1d50ba-e4e5-482e...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
<snip>

I removed most of your babbling. Bizarre coincidences of dates don't
make John Young a racist. Nice try.

NASA did, in fact, make a push during the shuttle program to expand the
astronaut corps to more than just ex-military pilots who quite obviously
did tend to be middle aged and white (which would be an issue with the
military, not NASA). Unfortunately, the space shuttle, being a "hot"
glider upon landing, required "hot" pilots, so institutional inertia
kept the commander and pilot list drawing from that ex-military pilot
candidate pool a lot longer than the rest of the crew.

Going forward, deep space missions will be more like long duration
submarine operation than "hot" airplane tests. Look for more changes
(slowly, of course) in how NASA picks astronauts as NASA transitions to
even more very long duration missions.

> It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
> decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
> legacy of those who were pro-slavery.

There never was and never has been a "moon base". Now you're just
sounding like a complete nutter.

> No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
> no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
> Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
> silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.

I still don't see what in the hell you're talking about. Nothing is
"obvious". Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
You haven't provided any evidence that makes any damn sense to me, let
alone extraordinary evidence.

[Stuf4]

From snidely:

> Stuf4 speculated:
> > From Jeff Findley:
>
> >> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
> >> you have to support this extraordinary claim?
> >
> > As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
> > In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
> > over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
> > announcement:
> >
> > https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
>
> I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.
>
> Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
> before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.
>
> (That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
> the shuttle era.)

John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg

Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this tribute he had
chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
preserve the institution of slavery.

It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.

One of the three chiseled permanently into Stone Mountain is Jefferson Davis,
CSA President. A point of irony is that when John Young retired, the JSC
Director was Jefferson Davis, last name Howell.

The issue being called into question here is racism. Do I think John Young was
a racist? No. But he sent a clear message that is entrenched in the legacy of
slavery. And that makes him a racist sympathizer. Or at the very least, it
makes him insensitive to the issue of racism. Now this might have been the
norm of the 1960s and early 70s. But he had plenty of decades afterward to
make amends for this, and I never saw him try. Nor did I ever see anyone call
him out on this. I never did myself. So that constitutes tacit support of
what he did.

Way back in 1967, the first black person was selected to be an astronaut. Had
Robert Lawrence lived, it's easy to imagine that he would have been picked up
in Group 7 with the other MOL folks. Now imagine that he had gotten assigned
to John Young's support crew on A16. The question here is whether that most
prominent feature of the landing site in the Descartes Highlands would still
have been referred to by this name with this deep racist history. Or would
John Young have had some epiphany when looking at this dark-skinned member of
his support crew?

But that version of history was not to be. Lawrence died in the same year he
had gotten selected. An astronaut like John Glenn had much more political and
social awareness than John Young did. And interestingly enough, John Glenn
died 49 years to the day after Lawrence died. Lawrence was 32. Glenn lived to
almost 3-times that age.

Perhaps Charlie Duke will live well into his 90s like Glenn did. And if so,
that will give him plenty of years to reflect on the legacy that he and John
Young have supported with their choice of this one particular name.

Stone Mountain.

This monument to the pro-slavery effort is so iconic, this is why Martin Luther
King Jr focused on it as the first place he stated in his I Have A Dream speech
as the prototype of the places that need to change, if his vision of a non-
racist future are to be realized. His speech is so inspiring that it is worth posting again:

>> 'Let Freedom Ring' conclusion ...the last 90 seconds:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yThJm7Wv7Q

Consideration is being given to having a permanent "Freedom Bell" right there
at Stone Mountain. That would go a long way toward making amends. The open
question here is with NASA, and what they plan on doing about their role in
supporting this pro-racist message that Apollo 16 left on the Moon.

Charlie Bolden, as the first black person to be the full NASA Administrator,
did not ever address this issue, as far as I saw. Neither did Fred Gregory
before him. Fred had two months to shine a light on this. Bolden had the
better part of a decade.

But it wasn't until 2017 that this issue really came to a head, and even then
NASA was never called to task.

Here is an idea...

NASA can proclaim that Orion's DPS engine bell is an MLK-tribute Freedom Bell.

Bonus points if you get someone out there to actually clang it. Even better if
Charlie Duke & TK Mattingly get on board with this idea. Now that John is
gone, those two would be the most fitting people to participate in this
proclamation.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <4e1d50ba-e4e5-482e...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> <snip>
>
> I removed most of your babbling. Bizarre coincidences of dates don't
> make John Young a racist. Nice try.
>
> NASA did, in fact, make a push during the shuttle program to expand the
> astronaut corps to more than just ex-military pilots who quite obviously
> did tend to be middle aged and white (which would be an issue with the
> military, not NASA). Unfortunately, the space shuttle, being a "hot"
> glider upon landing, required "hot" pilots, so institutional inertia
> kept the commander and pilot list drawing from that ex-military pilot
> candidate pool a lot longer than the rest of the crew.
>
> Going forward, deep space missions will be more like long duration
> submarine operation than "hot" airplane tests. Look for more changes
> (slowly, of course) in how NASA picks astronauts as NASA transitions to
> even more very long duration missions.
>
> > It is quite curious that there was no push back when John Young made the
> > decision to establish a Moon base that serves to this day as a tribute to the
> > legacy of those who were pro-slavery.
>
> There never was and never has been a "moon base". Now you're just
> sounding like a complete nutter.

Stone Mountain was the "base" for the Apollo 16 mission in exactly the same
way that Tranquility was the Base for Apollo 11.

> > No one at NASA nixed this in 1972, and here we are half a century later, and
> > no one at NASA still seems to care. No one in the United States. No one on
> > Planet Earth. Or at least, if there is anyone who cares, they have kept quite
> > silent about it. Throughout all of John Young's life.
>
> I still don't see what in the hell you're talking about. Nothing is
> "obvious". Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
> You haven't provided any evidence that makes any damn sense to me, let
> alone extraordinary evidence.

This is hardly an extraordinary claim. It is a simple fact. John Young chose a
pro-slavery monument as what they decided to honor with the name they picked
for the most prominent lunar feature where they landed on this mission.

Perhaps DPS will become an early supporter of this proposed idea to designate
Orion's DPS engine as the lunar Freedom Bell.

An excellent time to hold this ceremony would be on the 50th anniversary of
MLK's death. That is coming up in 3 months from now. And that is also the
month of the anniversary of the Apollo 16 mission.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg

The next iteration of this photoshopping effort would be to give the LM a coat
of bright orange paint, or replacing the gold mylar with orange mylar to
minimize the weight penalty ...renaming Orion "the General Lee", and giving
Young & Duke the nickname "Dukes of Hazard" ...with it being a real hazard to
persist in supporting the legacy of slavery well into the 21st century.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <c26a9206-4a8c-4ec3...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

>
> From snidely:
> > Stuf4 speculated:
> > > From Jeff Findley:
> >
> > >> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
> > >> you have to support this extraordinary claim?
> > >
> > > As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
> > > In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
> > > over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
> > > announcement:
> > >
> > > https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
> >
> > I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.
> >
> > Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
> > before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.
> >
> > (That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
> > the shuttle era.)
>
> John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
> top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg

From above:

This image is a photoshopped manipulation of File:John W. Young on
the Moon.jpg in which the flag of the United States of America has
been replaced with the Confederate flag. The astronaut in this photo
is John Young, commander of Apollo 16, and in the background is the
land feature which was named Stone Mountain in honor of the
Confederate States of America monument in Georgia, the site of the
founding of the second Ku Klux Klan in 1915, and featuring very large
carvings of three Confederate leaders of the US Civil War: President
Jefferson Davis, General Robert E. Lee and General 'Stonewall'
Jackson.

Ok, a photoshopped picture with an assertion that the lunar feature
"Stone Mountain" was named after Stone Mountain in Georgia (we'll get to
that later). From Wikipedia:

Stone Mountain is a quartz monzonite dome monadnock and the site
of Stone Mountain Park near Stone Mountain, Georgia. At its
summit, the elevation is 1,686 feet (514 m) MSL and 825 feet
(251 m) above the surrounding area. Stone Mountain is well-known
for not only its geology, but also the enormous rock relief on
its north face, the largest bas-relief in the world.[1] The
carving depicts three Confederate figures during the Civil War:
Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.

> Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this
> tribute he had
> chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
> today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
> way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
> preserve the institution of slavery.
>
> It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
> 3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.

It's your assertion that John Young must be either a racist or racist
sympathizer because either he, or his crewmate, named Stone Mountain on
the moon after Stone Mountain in Georgia. Alrighty then.

Time for primary sources, since you're too lazy to substantiate your own
assertions with such.

Apollo 16 Lunar Surface Journal - Post Landing
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16.postland.html

From above:

[Duke - ... And then Stone Mountain, we picked that
'cause it looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia. ...

So, right here is a quote from Duke that they picked the name because
that lunar feature "looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia".

Your assertion that the crew must be racist based on this one choice of
a name is very tenuous at best.

[Fred J. McCall]

If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.

<snip>


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From snidely:
>> Stuf4 speculated:
>> > From Jeff Findley:
>>
>> >> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What evidence do
>> >> you have to support this extraordinary claim?
>> >
>> > As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
>> > In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
>> > over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
>> > announcement:
>> >
>> > https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
>>
>> I'm sorry, but any racism on that page is a little too subtle for me.
>>
>> Unless your charge is that John Young agreed to join the astronaut corp
>> before the astronaut corps included anyone of non-European ancestry.
>>
>> (That didn't happen until Gemini, right? And didn't happen again until
>> the shuttle era.)
>
>John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
>top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
>
>https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
>

"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."

In other words, it's a LIE.

<snip>


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
<snip>

> >As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
> >In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
> >over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
> >announcement:
> >
> >https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
> >
>
> If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.

As with Madge's Palmolive, when you are soaking in something then it can be difficult to gain perspective on what you're surrounded by. Like the old adage that the last to discover what water is would be a fish.

In the case of Apollo 16, John Young spent formative years in the Atlanta area, and went to college there. If you live in a region that is steeped in hundreds of years of racist history, then it can be very difficult to see Stone Mountain for what so many people see it as. A tribute to pro-slavery attitudes, where *millions* were willing to kill in order to preserve slavery.

And now, because of John Young's decision, along with the decisions of NASA to go along with it ...and to continue going along with it, we have this pro-slavery monument up on the Moon as well as in Atlanta.


If an astronaut today tried to do a similar kind of dedication to an icon that has such strong ties to being pro-slavery, people would FREAK OUT. NASA themselves would freak out. It would be enough to get you kicked off the crew, and they'd send your backup and leave you on the ground to re-evaluate your value system ...as a newly minted non-astronaut.

Now I don't know what Jeanette Epps did to lose her ride, but I'm going to guess that it wasn't that she got busted for supporting the Confederacy.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <c26a9206-4a8c-4ec3...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

<snip>

The question marks in the title were put there because those who do not know John Young personally could easily arrive at a conclusion that he is supporting racism with this particular, prominent choice.

In the follow up discussion, I have stated that I don't see him (nor any member of the crew) to be racist. What they are (or were, as the case might be) is *lacking* in sensitivity to the racism issue.

> Time for primary sources, since you're too lazy to substantiate your own
> assertions with such.
>
> Apollo 16 Lunar Surface Journal - Post Landing
> https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16.postland.html
>
> From above:
>
> [Duke - ... And then Stone Mountain, we picked that
> 'cause it looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia. ...
>
> So, right here is a quote from Duke that they picked the name because
> that lunar feature "looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia".
>
> Your assertion that the crew must be racist based on this one choice of
> a name is very tenuous at best.

The choice runs far deeper than just this notion that "it looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia".

Stone Mountain is an extremely popular tourist attraction in the Atlanta area. And John Young lived formative years of his life there, and also went to college there.

He also spent the latter years of his childhood in the Orlando area, in the state that has the unofficial motto:

"Florida - the more North you go, the more South it gets."

And John Young did go more north ...to go to a college where you can see racism ingrained right there in the official school nickname:

The Georgia Tech "Yellow Jackets".

I guess that's better than having the official name being the WASPS (in call caps).

So yeah, it was far more than just this lunar feature looking like Stone Mountain. By choosing that name, they were calling the Descartes Highland home. And the tie to the Confederate Memorial was particularly strong. The monument was completed on March 3, 1972 (https://www.stonemountainpark.com/About/History). Apollo 16 launched the following *month*. April 16th.

So by this proximity, the naming was far more than just a tribute to a geological feature. It was a tribute to the Confederacy itself. Which, of course, is easily seen to be a tribute to being pro-slavery.

And no, this tribute to their home does not inherently make the racist. If they are not racist, what it does is make them willfully ignorant to this legacy of racism.

...and this willful ignorance is quite strong even today in 2018, as evidenced by responses here on this forum. Stone Mountain has gotten a lot of heat, and this came to a head in 2017. But for whatever reason, John Young remained immune to this criticism while he was alive.

It would be easy to guess that someone did call him out on this. And if that had happened, it would be great to learn what his response was. Ideally, captured on video so that his facial expressions could be seen, as well as hearing his words.

We still have this opportunity with Charlie Duke. While not native to Atlanta, he is just as much a Southern Boy as Young. Curiously, he even moved away from the Deep South, like Young, to a similar latitude in Florida before graduating high school.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
<snip>

> >John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
> >top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
> >
> >https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
> >
>
> "This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
>
> In other words, it's a LIE.

Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.

Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.

Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.

Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.


All that the photoshopping does is call attention to these facts, for those who may not be aware of them. What you dismiss as a lie, an unbiased historian could clearly see as "artistic license" that is heavily supported and justified by these hard facts.

It would be very interesting to learn if Apollo 16 carried any *actual* Confederate flags with them to the Moon. That would be another great question for Charlie Duke to answer.

~ CT

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From Fred J. McCall:
>> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
>> >In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
>> >over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
>> >announcement:
>> >
>> >https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
>> >
>>
>> If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.
>>
>
>As with Madge's Palmolive, when you are soaking in something then it can be difficult to gain perspective on what you're surrounded by. Like the old adage that the last to discover what water is would be a fish.
>

Perhaps you need to stop soaking your head? So, according to the old
adage, humans are unlikely to discover air?

>
>In the case of Apollo 16, John Young spent formative years in the Atlanta area, and went to college there. If you live in a region that is steeped in hundreds of years of racist history, then it can be very difficult to see Stone Mountain for what so many people see it as. A tribute to pro-slavery attitudes, where *millions* were willing to kill in order to preserve slavery.
>

It's a GEOGRAPHIC FEATURE.

>
>And now, because of John Young's decision, along with the decisions of NASA to go along with it ...and to continue going along with it, we have this pro-slavery monument up on the Moon as well as in Atlanta.
>

The only racist here seems to be YOU.

>
>If an astronaut today tried to do a similar kind of dedication to an icon that has such strong ties to being pro-slavery, people would FREAK OUT. NASA themselves would freak out. It would be enough to get you kicked off the crew, and they'd send your backup and leave you on the ground to re-evaluate your value system ...as a newly minted non-astronaut.
>

And your sort of thinking is presumably why we're not going back to
the Moon anytime soon. After all, didn't the Moon shine down on the
Confederacy, too?

>
>Now I don't know what Jeanette Epps did to lose her ride, but I'm going to guess that it wasn't that she got busted for supporting the Confederacy.
>

It's usually something medical.

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>
>The question marks in the title were put there because those who do not know John Young personally could easily arrive at a conclusion that he is supporting racism with this particular, prominent choice.
>

Only if they're insane to the point of being delusional.

<snip idiocy>

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From Fred J. McCall:
>> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
>> >top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
>> >
>> >https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
>> >
>>
>> "This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
>>
>> In other words, it's a LIE.
>
>Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
>
>Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
>

You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.

>
>Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
>
>Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
>

That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.

>
>All that the photoshopping does is call attention to these facts, for those who may not be aware of them. What you dismiss as a lie, an unbiased historian could clearly see as "artistic license" that is heavily supported and justified by these hard facts.
>

No. It's a lie, pure and simple.

>
>It would be very interesting to learn if Apollo 16 carried any *actual* Confederate flags with them to the Moon. That would be another great question for Charlie Duke to answer.
>

Perhaps one of the crew was a slave?

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >From Fred J. McCall:
> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
<snip>

> >> >https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
> >> >
> >>
> >> "This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
> >>
> >> In other words, it's a LIE.
> >
> >Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
> >
> >Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
> >
>
> You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
>
> >
> >Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
> >
> >Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
> >
>
> That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.

For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.

And then you dismiss Stone Mountain being a racist hotspot as part of this "delusion", when it is perfectly clear to me, and perfectly clear to folks like MLK that this is well established information.

Perhaps you have never listened to his iconic I Have A Dream speech. Here is the transcript:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/mlk01.asp

Scroll to the bottom, and this is where he goes through his "geography lesson", with the Let Freedom Ring motif. He starts by naming normal American locations: NH, NY, PA, CO & CA ...but then he abruptly, and brilliantly, shifts gears. He says, "But not only that. Let freedom ring from..."

...and then he starts naming the tainted points of American geography. The VERY FIRST place he names here is Stone Mountain of Georgia. The states most tainted with racist scars which he names are Georgia, Tennessee and Mississippi. Printed words fall way short in capturing the visceral power of his words. Here is MLK himself delivering the speech:

"Let Freedom Ring"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIshI_qxxew&t=16m28s


MLK had solid reasons for highlighting Stone Mountain this way. He knew that it was where the Ku Klux Klan was re-established in 1915 after the release of the KKK-glamorizing movie The Birth of a Nation. At that founding event, a cross was burned right there at the top of Stone Mountain, said to be visible in Atlanta. Part of the deal that was set up was that the KKK would have a perpetual easement where they could hold meetings at the top of the mountain, with no expiration. Those meetings were conducted for the next 45 years on Stone Mountain, continuing even after NASA had been founded.

More hard facts that you are certainly free to continue to ignore.
(This main point had been highlighted earlier on in this thread.)


And if you look further into the history of Stone Mountain, you get the story that the Confederate Monument was a KKK project. Here's a direct quote:

"The UDC organized the Stone Mountain Confederate Monumental Association (SMCMA) to raise money for the project and to supervise its day-to-day operations. By this time Venable and Borglum's association with the Klan was well-known and they arranged to stack the Association's board with Klan members."
(ref- http://www.aboutnorthgeorgia.com/ang/Stone_Mountain_Carving )

> >All that the photoshopping does is call attention to these facts, for those who may not be aware of them. What you dismiss as a lie, an unbiased historian could clearly see as "artistic license" that is heavily supported and justified by these hard facts.
> >
>
> No. It's a lie, pure and simple.
>
> >
> >It would be very interesting to learn if Apollo 16 carried any *actual* Confederate flags with them to the Moon. That would be another great question for Charlie Duke to answer.
> >
>
> Perhaps one of the crew was a slave?

Members of the Support Crew might have had that complaint.

Here is Mike McCulley saying how his main job for his first couple of years as an astronaut was "carrying John Young's helmet bag":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wTiwmt7_4Y

Support Crew brand "slavery" was even worse than that. Setting switches in the Apollo capsule before the crew showed up. Stuff like that.


Wind the clock back to the previous century, and there were actual slaves doing the work. During the Civil War, General Sherman was infamous for his scorched earth total war approach to defeating the Confederacy. His siege on Atlanta was a huge part of that. And it was on July 20th, 1864 that he issued the order to have the railroad tracks feeding into Atlanta torn up, and the rails heated and fully bent so that the tracks could not be repaired.

This order was issued 105 years to the day before the first lunar landing with Apollo 11.

The twisted rails became known as "Sherman's Neckties". Here is a webpage with photos of a memorial display showing what they looked like, including a marble tablet engraved with the exact words of Sherman's order:

https://marygilmartin.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/shermans-neckties-american-civil-war-1861-1865-georgia/

And where is this display located? At Stone Mountain Village, very close to the controversial sculpture. Here is a book about Sherman's Atlanta Campaign that gives the full text of his order:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4vxjHOFflzcC&pg=PA90&dq=sherman+%22rails+are+red+hot%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6_OXd9fLYAhWBpoMKHRWuDYYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Page 89 states:
"Sherman wanted to disrupt traffic farther east by burning the trestles spanning the Yellow and Alcovy rivers."

The Yellow River is on the east side of Stone Mountain. Toward the beginning of that page, it explains that Sherman's actions were in response to a telegram received from Grant warning that Lee's Virginia army was being sent by rail to reinforce Atlanta. The date that msg was received was July 16th, the same day that Apollo 11 would launch in the subsequent century.

Stone Mountain is forever associated with the Apollo Program.

The question being raised here is what does NASA intend to do to make amends for the slavery-tainted aspects of this legacy? There are plans to dedicate a Freedom Bell at the Stone Mountain located on Earth. It is clear to me that the situation on the Moon needs to be discussed as well.


And the folks at John Young's alma mater can also open up a long-overdue discussion as to whether they want to continue their proud heritage of promoting WASP insect supremacy.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> >From Fred J. McCall:
> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> >As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
> >> >In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
> >> >over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
> >> >announcement:
> >> >
> >> >https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
> >>
> >> If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.
> >
> >As with Madge's Palmolive, when you are soaking in something then it can be difficult to gain perspective on what you're surrounded by. Like the old adage that the last to discover what water is would be a fish.
> >
>
> Perhaps you need to stop soaking your head? So, according to the old
> adage, humans are unlikely to discover air?

From countless eons ago, when a person approached a lake, if they had some sense of curiosity, they could dip a toe in. The even more curious would get fully submerged. And from that perspective, they learned that this liquid stuff had some kind of property that prevented them from breathing. That person may not have survived the experience, but there were others who followed, and learned the skill of coming back up out of the water to breath again.

Viola. The discovery of air.

> >In the case of Apollo 16, John Young spent formative years in the Atlanta area, and went to college there. If you live in a region that is steeped in hundreds of years of racist history, then it can be very difficult to see Stone Mountain for what so many people see it as. A tribute to pro-slavery attitudes, where *millions* were willing to kill in order to preserve slavery.
> >
>
> It's a GEOGRAPHIC FEATURE.

Stone Mountain is a geographic feature in the same way that Mount Rushmore is merely a geographic feature. Both are monuments to great leaders, including those who owned slaves, supported slavery, banged their slaves, etc.

Perhaps if the carving had included pairs of shackles instead of just the busts then the public would be more clear on this point.

As for the blatant racism in Georgia Tech's WASP mascot, I am astounded that no one calls them out on this...
"We're just going to call our little WASP a 'yellow jacket', and everything will be just peachy keen."

Many across the American public freak out over nicknames like the Redskins, yet no one bats an eye about John Young's alma mater having this nickname that screams WHITE SUPREMACY.

> >And now, because of John Young's decision, along with the decisions of NASA to go along with it ...and to continue going along with it, we have this pro-slavery monument up on the Moon as well as in Atlanta.
> >
>
> The only racist here seems to be YOU.

Hardly the first time that an ssh rebuttal jumped with both feet into Opposite World.

> >If an astronaut today tried to do a similar kind of dedication to an icon that has such strong ties to being pro-slavery, people would FREAK OUT. NASA themselves would freak out. It would be enough to get you kicked off the crew, and they'd send your backup and leave you on the ground to re-evaluate your value system ...as a newly minted non-astronaut.
> >
>
> And your sort of thinking is presumably why we're not going back to
> the Moon anytime soon. After all, didn't the Moon shine down on the
> Confederacy, too?

Yes, the Moon did shine on the Confederacy. And it was not all that long ago that NASA assigned a man with the name of Jefferson Davis (Howell) to run the Johnson Space Center. It is a curious fact that he held this position while serving under NASA's first black administrator.

I myself wonder if it was a reaction to this Confederate iconic name in this prominent leadership role that prompted Fred Gregory's selection to be placed in this top role acting over him.

> >Now I don't know what Jeanette Epps did to lose her ride, but I'm going to guess that it wasn't that she got busted for supporting the Confederacy.
> >
>
> It's usually something medical.

My own trend observation is that when an astronaut is taken off a flight for a medical reason, NASA is *very clear* that the reason is medical. So my own conclusion is that something else happened.

NASA has a long standing policy of reverse discrimination when it comes to astronaut selection, dating back to 1978. Flying a black woman is a huge PR victory for the agency. There have only been 3 in the four decades since the selection of that first shuttle class. 2 of those 3 flew only one single time.

Since the first shuttle mission, there were three entire decades spanning between those where absolutely no black women flew*:

Decade 1) 1981-1991,
Decade 2) 1993-2005,
Decade 3) 2007-Today.

ISS has been permanently crewed since 2000. We're up to Expedition 54 right now, so more than a hundred astronauts have flown as ISS crew members ...yet not a *single one* has been a black woman. Epps was very close to being the first. So her getting removed is a matter of epic proportions, and raises question marks bigger than Yvonne Cagle not flying.

~ CT



--------------
* For completeness, you could add...

SPANS OF YEARS WHERE
NO BLACK WOMEN FLEW

Decade 00) 1961-1971,
Decade 0) 1971-1981.

Decade 1) 1981-1991,
Decade 2) 1993-2005,
Decade 3) 2007-Today.
--------------

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From Fred J. McCall:
>> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >From Fred J. McCall:
>> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> >> >https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> "This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
>> >>
>> >> In other words, it's a LIE.
>> >
>> >Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
>> >
>> >Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
>> >
>>
>> You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
>>
>> >
>> >Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
>> >
>> >Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
>> >
>>
>> That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
>
>For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
>

Nope. I'm dismissing the idea that "Hey, that looks just like a
mountain where I grew up so let's call it that" is racist. Geography
is not racist.

>
>And then you dismiss Stone Mountain being a racist hotspot as part of this "delusion", when it is perfectly clear to me, and perfectly clear to folks like MLK that this is well established information.
>

You're a racist, so I don't care what's 'clear' to you.

<snip spew>


--
"This philosophy of hate, of religious and racial intolerance,
with its passionate urge toward war, is loose in the world.
It is the enemy of democracy; it is the enemy of all the
fruitful and spiritual sides of life. It is our responsibility,
as individuals and organizations, to resist this."
-- Mary Heaton Vorse

[Jeff Findley]

In article <la5k6dlsti5h8bleu...@4ax.com>,
fjmc...@gmail.com says...

>
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >From Fred J. McCall:
> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >From Fred J. McCall:
> >> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> >> >https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> "This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
> >> >>
> >> >> In other words, it's a LIE.
> >> >
> >> >Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
> >> >
> >> >Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
> >> >
> >>
> >> You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
> >> >
> >> >Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
> >> >
> >>
> >> That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
> >
> >For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
> >
>
> Nope. I'm dismissing the idea that "Hey, that looks just like a
> mountain where I grew up so let's call it that" is racist. Geography
> is not racist.

I agree with Fred. You're the one making these claims. If you had
sworn testimony from other NASA astronauts (John Young flew STS-1, so
he'd have been around astronaut class(es) which were far more diverse
than the ex-military pilot and test pilot dominated astronaut classes of
Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. But you don't have that, do you? You have
a photoshopped picture and some "Beautiful Mind" style "connect the dots
logic" instead.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have failed to
provide such evidence. Therefore you have not proven your claim.

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <la5k6dlsti5h8bleu...@4ax.com>,
> fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> > >From Fred J. McCall:
> > >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >From Fred J. McCall:
> > >> >> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
<snip>

> > >> >Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
> > >> >
> > >> >Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
> > >> >
> > >> >Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
> > >
> > >For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
> > >
> >
> > Nope. I'm dismissing the idea that "Hey, that looks just like a
> > mountain where I grew up so let's call it that" is racist. Geography
> > is not racist.
>
> I agree with Fred. You're the one making these claims. If you had
> sworn testimony from other NASA astronauts (John Young flew STS-1, so
> he'd have been around astronaut class(es) which were far more diverse
> than the ex-military pilot and test pilot dominated astronaut classes of
> Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. But you don't have that, do you? You have
> a photoshopped picture and some "Beautiful Mind" style "connect the dots
> logic" instead.
>
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have failed to
> provide such evidence. Therefore you have not proven your claim.

You are now talking about the question of whether John Young was an actual racist.

I have never seen that in him myself. Nor have I ever heard any story about him that would cause me to think that might be the case. I would agree that it might be possible that he was racist, at some point in time during his life. And if I were to learn of any evidence that he was, it would not be all that surprising, considering the place (and time) where he was raised.

The point I have asserted here on this thread is that the decision to use the homage Stone Mountain was grossly insensitive to the racist issues that surround that particular piece of geography.

If it was just a mountain, then I would be inclined to agree with Fred. But it is a particular mountain that is deeply associated with the KKK. And the carving that was made served to deepen this pro-slavery connection.

You all are certainly free to dismiss any and all of these facts. And you are certainly free to call me whatever names you feel like. It does not change the entrenched association of the Apollo 16 landing site with slavery and white supremacy attitudes.

NASA is free to ignore this issue also. They've done so for half a century. So why should they change now? Particularly when absolutely no one called them out on this during all of the heated debate that came to a head in 2017.

And how many more decades will it take for people to wake up to John Young's alma mater Georgia Tech proudly using a WASP as their mascot? No one seems to care about that either.

Yeah, the obvious conclusion here is that *I* am the racist. Per the old adage...
"You who smelt it dealt it."

The same attitude could be applied to sexual harassment. "If you're complaining about it, it means that you are the harasser."
What a brilliant strategy for achieving progress in our society.

Alternatively, we could ask ourselves...
If I choose to remain willfully blind to these blatant issues even after they are directly highlighted to me, then what does that mean in regards to me being either part of the problem or part of the solution?

This might be another issue that would be best for me to leave alone for a whole year to return to next year and see what kind of progress, if any, has been made with people's attitudes. The ultimate quote regarding progress is that one that says that it happens "...one funeral at a time."

That is to say that the psychological inertia is just too great, and that people are so set in their ways, in their beliefs, that they cannot get on board with a clear need to change ...so long as they are still breathing.

And if that's what it takes for NASA to wake up to this Stone Mountain issue, than so be it.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

I wrote:
<snip>

> You are now talking about the question of whether John Young was an actual
> racist.
>
> I have never seen that in him myself. Nor have I ever heard any story about
> him that would cause me to think that might be the case. I would agree that
> it might be possible that he was racist, at some point in time during his
> life. And if I were to learn of any evidence that he was, it would not be
> all that surprising, considering the place (and time) where he was raised.

I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist. I have never seen any other evidence to this effect. And I certainly hope it is not accurate. But there is the _possibility_ that he chose that name because he wanted to establish a KKK landmark up on the Moon, and he actually wanted to keep the Negro down.

If I were to quantify this possibility, I'd say that it's below a 5% chance. And I would want it to be below a 1% chance.

Again, I have never seen or heard anything other than this Stone Mountain bit that would serve as evidence that John Young had any racist attitudes. I did not know him that well myself. It would be great if someone who did know him very well would pipe in to say he absolutely did not. (Or maybe there'd be a story to cast some doubt.)

I have a friend who was VERY close to him. And she spent time with him during the last months of his life. I've never asked this question to her. I've never seen a need to ask. And I don't see Stone Mountain, in and of itself, to be a reason to ask.

I happen to hold John Young in the highest esteem. It was not with any joy that I initiated this thread. But it is a topic that I have long seen as being needed to address. I waited until after he died to do that. Maybe it would have been better to have given him the opportunity to respond himself. His rebuttals to ridiculous notions are priceless. And that's exactly the way I would have expected him to respond...


Me: "You know, John, your choice in using the name Stone Mountain could give someone the impression that you might be racist."

JWY: "What have you been smoking?"

~ CT

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>I wrote:
><snip>
>> You are now talking about the question of whether John Young was an actual
>> racist.
>>
>> I have never seen that in him myself. Nor have I ever heard any story about
>> him that would cause me to think that might be the case. I would agree that
>> it might be possible that he was racist, at some point in time during his
>> life. And if I were to learn of any evidence that he was, it would not be
>> all that surprising, considering the place (and time) where he was raised.
>
>I should check myself on that statement.
>Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
>

It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.

<snip idiocy>

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:
> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

> >I should check myself on that statement.
> >Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
> >
>
> It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.

Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk

I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
search?

If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
that picture is a member of the "KKK"

Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
mountain.

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> >
> > From Fred J. McCall:
> > > Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >I should check myself on that statement.
> > > >Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
> >
> > Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
> > https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
> >
> > I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
>
> That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
> hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
> search?

Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.

> If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
> picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
> from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
> that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
> that picture is a member of the "KKK"
>
> Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
> mountain.

And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.
KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.

Here is a quote from "Negro actress" Nicole Beharie:

------------
Stone Mountain, Georgia, still had Ku Klux Klan marches, and I had a wild and
courageous mother who'd put us in the car to watch them. She wanted us to know
those things existed.
------------
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/972878

Nicole was **BORN** in 1985. Her mother's lessons were quite fitting for the
role she would play a few years ago as Rachel Robinson, the wife of Jackie
Robinson.

Compare that to the attitudes and experience of someone born and raised in the
Deep South in 1930, the year John Young was born. A lot changed in that half
century. But it did not change completely. And under the current leadership
of Donald Trump, racism in the USA has seen a wild resurgence. The Racist In
Chief would not have gotten elected were it not for the White Supremacy vote.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <1e939bea-a6b3-4aa5...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

>
> From Jeff Findley:
> > In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890...@googlegroups.com>,
> > tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> > >
> > > From Fred J. McCall:
> > > > Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >I should check myself on that statement.
> > > > >Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
> > >
> > > Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
> > > https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
> > >
> > > I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
> >
> > That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
> > hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
> > search?
>
> Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
> Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
> Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.

It's pretty much right there in your "Subject" line.

> > If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
> > picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
> > from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
> > that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
> > that picture is a member of the "KKK"
> >
> > Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
> > mountain.
>
> And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.

Mountains aren't racist. People are.

> KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
> That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
>
> Here is a quote from "Negro actress" Nicole Beharie:
>
> ------------
> Stone Mountain, Georgia, still had Ku Klux Klan marches, and I had a wild and
> courageous mother who'd put us in the car to watch them. She wanted us to know
> those things existed.
> ------------
> http://www.azquotes.com/quote/972878
>
> Nicole was **BORN** in 1985. Her mother's lessons were quite fitting for the

I'm not discounting any of the above. Again, it was your original
assertion in the subject line that John Young was a racist or racist
sympathizer.

[Stuf4]

I agree. My use of the term "racist mountain" was not to say that there was
some kind of flaw in the molecules of granite that comprise Stone Mountain.
It was to highlight the fact that this particular mountain has an entrenched
history spanning more than one century of being intimately associated with
people who are deeply racist, and quite proud of the fact that they are.

"Racist mountain" means "mountain adopted by racists as an icon and monument
to their racism". What they would refer to as their "proud heritage".

If I myself had been a slave owner, I might not be so proud of that. And if I
had gone so far as to kill off an army of white people in my struggle to protect
my right to continue owning slaves, I might not be so proud of that either.

I would be interested to learn an accurate total of the number of crosses that
have been burned at, or on top of, Stone Mountain. You might be aware of the
fact that there are still today people who want to continue this practice, and
that a permit application for doing so was recently denied.

> > KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
> > That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
> >
> > Here is a quote from "Negro actress" Nicole Beharie:
> >
> > ------------
> > Stone Mountain, Georgia, still had Ku Klux Klan marches, and I had a wild and
> > courageous mother who'd put us in the car to watch them. She wanted us to know
> > those things existed.
> > ------------
> > http://www.azquotes.com/quote/972878
> >
> > Nicole was **BORN** in 1985. Her mother's lessons were quite fitting for the
>
> I'm not discounting any of the above. Again, it was your original
> assertion in the subject line that John Young was a racist or racist
> sympathizer.

Subj - "John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?"

This subject line was carefully chosen based on the fact that John Young did a
prominent thing on his moonwalk mission that could easily lead someone to a
conclusion that he is a racist or a racist sympathizer.

A person who supports glorification of the Confederacy can be easily seen as
someone who supports glorification of slavery (the primary reason this war was
fought). And a person who supports the glorification of slavery can be easily
seen as a racist. This last part would actually make you a racist.


It might help to take a BIG step back from this entire discussion.

A fresh take would be to drop John Young entirely. Drop Apollo 16. Drop
everything to do with Apollo.

Now say that some time this year, Elon Musk were to send a mission to the
Moon. It was some secret project he had going, and he springs it on us all as
a huge surprise. The leader of the crew happens to be from Georgia. And this
person wants to do a tribute to the home state by naming this prominent feature
at the landing site 'Stone Mountain'.

Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
HUGE backlash?

I myself am very clear on what the answer to that question is. And it would be
very easy to see that if this crew leader refused to change this plan, then
someone from the backup crew might be called up to take over as lead. And the
mere fact that this had ever been considered would raise questions about
whether this person was a racist. If not, then a racist sympathizer. At the
very least, it would be perfectly clear that this person is horribly
insensitive to racial issues.

On second thought, I could see that person being dismissed from the crew just
for the mere suggestion alone. Whether or not they were willing to reverse
position on the idea of this tribute.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <00a68b71-92e2-4cbd...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

> Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
> HUGE backlash?
>

2018 isn't the late 60's to early 70's. I'm as old as the difference in
time. It's coming up on half a damn century. I declare this thread as
done. There is no more point to it due to the more than two generation
gap between then and now.

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>
>From Fred J. McCall:
>> Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> >I should check myself on that statement.
>> >Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
>> >
>>
>> It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
>
>Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
>https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
>

Gee, I guess anyone who happened to live anywhere with a geographic
feature that was ever involved in a demonstration must be a racist!

>
>I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
>

I'm not open to the possibility that you aren't dead from the neck up.

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From Jeff Findley:
>> In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890...@googlegroups.com>,
>> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
>> >
>> > From Fred J. McCall:
>> > > Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > >I should check myself on that statement.
>> > > >Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
>> >
>> > Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
>> > https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
>> >
>> > I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
>>
>> That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
>> hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
>> search?
>>
>
>Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
>Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
>Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.
>

You are the one who is too thick to understand overwhelming sarcasm.
You know who isn't under one of your hoods? John Young. Now stop
being a racist twat.

>> If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
>> picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
>> from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
>> that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
>> that picture is a member of the "KKK"
>>
>> Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
>> mountain.
>
>And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.
>KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
>That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
>

There is no such thing as a 'racist mountain'. Mountains are
geographic features.

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote:

>From Jeff Findley:
>>

>> Mountains aren't racist. People are.
>>
>
>I agree.
>

Then stop being a loony racist ninny.

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <00a68b71-92e2-4cbd...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> > Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
> > HUGE backlash?
>
> 2018 isn't the late 60's to early 70's. I'm as old as the difference in
> time. It's coming up on half a damn century. I declare this thread as
> done. There is no more point to it due to the more than two generation
> gap between then and now.

If you have nothing more to add to this thread, I am fine with that. I too might have been through with having thoroughly expressed my position. But tonight I happened across a brilliant John Oliver piece on the Confederacy and Stone Mountain in particular from this past October. For anyone who might still be interested:

Confederacy: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I&t=14m10s

Quote:
------------
...the largest Confederate memorial, the carving on Stone Mountain in Georgia, is located where the 20th century KKK was born. ...it was completed in 1972.
------------

If Oliver knew space history, then it is easy to picture him having a field day with the irony of what Young, Duke & NASA did with their tribute way up on the Moon right on the heels of this ceremony done down on Planet Earth.

Clearly Stone Mountain is not an issue that belongs just to people from generations ago. The debate is happening right now. The issue of racism and how to handle the legacy of hundreds of years of slavery, and how it all pertains to Stone Mountain is a very hot topic that has recently made front page news.

The purpose of this thread has been to highlight the curiosity of how everyone has been ignoring how John Young fits into that story.

It is easy to imagine that, in the wake of his death, many people will be wanting to put up statues to commemorate him. And it is just as easy to imagine that if any such memorial were to include Stone Mountain behind John Young, it would spur a HUGE protest. And people like John Oliver would be leading that charge in shedding light on how misguided such an effort would be.

If anyone were to attempt a rebuttal that "There is no more point to it due to..." whatever, it would quickly be shown to them just how relevant this issue is today. Still, in 2018.

~ CT

[Dean Markley]

Your opinion is just that. Yours alone.

[Stuf4]

From Dean Markley:

> On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 8:14:21 AM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:

<snip>

> > But tonight I happened across a brilliant John Oliver piece on the Confederacy and Stone Mountain in particular from this past October. For anyone who might still be interested:
> >
> > Confederacy: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I&t=14m10s
> >
> > Quote:
> > ------------
> > ...the largest Confederate memorial, the carving on Stone Mountain in Georgia, is located where the 20th century KKK was born. ...it was completed in 1972.
> > ------------
> >
> > If Oliver knew space history, then it is easy to picture him having a field day with the irony of what Young, Duke & NASA did with their tribute way up on the Moon right on the heels of this ceremony done down on Planet Earth.

<snip>

> Your opinion is just that. Yours alone.

Yeah, John Oliver would never agree with me that Stone Mountain has a racist legacy. Oh wait. He already made that point. Months before I did here.

~ CT

[Matthew Ota]

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
> John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
> was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
> particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
>
> No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
>
> With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
> throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
> flag on this.
>
> John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
> alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
> surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
> this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
> months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
> this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
> for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
>
> Was John Young racist?
>
> And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
> his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
> doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
> myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
>
> ~ CT

This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all unmoderated group.

[Jeff Findley]

In article <5384a465-f4ca-47fd...@googlegroups.com>,
otak...@gmail.com says...

>
> On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
> > John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
> > was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
> > particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
> >
> > No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
> >
> > With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
> > throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
> > flag on this.
> >
> > John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
> > alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
> > surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
> > this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
> > months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
> > this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
> > for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
> >
> > Was John Young racist?
> >
> > And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
> > his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
> > doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
> > myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
> >
> > ~ CT
>
> This post, which is total bullshit,

Agreed and the few of us who are left said as much.

> is why I elected to quit using the usenet years ago. I dropped by
> today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it still is... every
> crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all unmoderated
> group.

Sorry to hear that. I still hang around, but I'm much more active on
several of the space news websites that allow forum style postings below
their articles.

[Greg (Strider) Moore]

"Matthew Ota" wrote in message
news:5384a465-f4ca-47fd...@googlegroups.com...

I hear where you're coming from. On the other hand, simply joining the
group and participating you'd make a significant increase in the S/N ratio!

Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups
available.


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
IT Disaster Response -
https://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Response-Lessons-Learned-Field/dp/1484221834/

[Dean Markley]

Thanks for those groups!

[Fred J. McCall]

"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:

>
>Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups
>available.
>

I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated
summaries and new postings never go through.


--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

[Greg (Strider) Moore]

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7d...@4ax.com...

>
>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
>
>>
>>Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups
>>available.
>>
>
>I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated
>summaries and new postings never go through.
>

Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go
through.

If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your
host.

[Stuf4]

From Matthew Ota:

I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.

Today there may be no one here who wants to acknowledge that Apollo 16's Stone Mountain has racist aspects. Many issues come with huge "psychological inertia" where it takes a lot of time for people to get beyond their personal biases before there is any hope of examining an issue with any semblance of objectivity.

Take, for instance, Cosby. That one took well over a decade for American society to get around the Huxtable facade.


Now that might not be a great example to inject here. No one is accusing John Young of having been a serial rapist. The fact being highlighted is his mission choosing to name its most prominent landmark after a mountain that has a history steeped in racism.

It was 1972. America was nowhere near as sensitive to these kinds of issues back then as they are today in the post-Charlottesville world. And we're talking about a crew that has roots in the Deep South.

This is hardly surprising.

...yet the intense push-back here is quite understandable. Heroes are to be worshipped. Not criticized. Getting anyone to acknowledge the lunar Stone Mountain as having racist aspects is like turning an crude-laden supertanker turned around with a jetski, signaling the ship captain that it is headed straight for an iceberg.

Apollo 16 hit smack into a 'race-berg', willfully and deliberately. Yet no one notices and no one cares.

One day, the FBI files on Wernher von Braun will come to light. And this will reignite the discussion on Apollo's deep Nazi roots. If it hasn't happened by then, that will be the time when I expect that this Stone Mountain racism question will be openly examined. And maybe people will also look at the motivations behind naming Apollo 16's command module 'Casper'. CM pilot Mattingly did go to Auburn. All three had roots in the Deep South.

To assert that people from the Deep South were influenced by racism is not all that radical a point. In the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, this was standard. Let alone things that still happen there today. Just because you get hired by NASA, this does nothing to erase those attitudes. This was such a huge theme that Kevin Costner made a movie about it. Can it be that people here at SSH are oblivious to these facts that there indeed was racism at NASA during this time period? Perhaps no one here watched the movie Hidden Figures. Or they did, and for whatever reason feel that Young, Duke & Mattingly were immune ...even though all three of them spent formative years in some of the most racist regions of the United States.

Yeah, I'm the one who is "full of bullshit" here. Right.


Perhaps I should take an extended break, and return only to see if anyone else has happened to have woke in the interim. How rude of me to have disturbed your sleep.

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

Outside of yourself, I really don't see anyone "calling into question"
John Young. Seriously, a Google search just finds this lonesome thread.

> Today there may be no one here who wants to acknowledge that Apollo 16's Stone Mountain has racist aspects. Many issues come with huge "psychological inertia" where it takes a lot of time for people to get beyond their personal biases before there is any hope of examining an issue with any semblance of objectivity.
>
> Take, for instance, Cosby. That one took well over a decade for American society to get around the Huxtable facade.
>
>
> Now that might not be a great example to inject here. No one is accusing John Young of having been a serial rapist. The fact being highlighted is his mission choosing to name its most prominent landmark after a mountain that has a history steeped in racism.
>
> It was 1972. America was nowhere near as sensitive to these kinds of issues back then as they are today in the post-Charlottesville world. And we're talking about a crew that has roots in the Deep South.
>
> This is hardly surprising.
>
> ...yet the intense push-back here is quite understandable. Heroes are to be worshipped. Not criticized. Getting anyone to acknowledge the lunar Stone Mountain as having racist aspects is like turning an crude-laden supertanker turned around with a jetski, signaling the ship captain that it is headed straight for an iceberg.
>

No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life
who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
those.

Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real
evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed
miserably to clear that bar.

[Dean Markley]

+1 on this!

[Stuf4]

From Jeff Findley:

> In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990...@googlegroups.com>,
> tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

<snip>

> No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
> know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life
> who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
> those.
>
> Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real
> evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
>
> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed
> miserably to clear that bar.

It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:

- Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
- The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.


Beyond these two obvious facts, I elaborated with some opinion. You are free to reject any and all of that opinion. You're even free to reject any and all of the objective fact.

A point made early on in this thread was how the year 2017 included many people across America gaining awareness about blatant racism that has long gone overlooked.

2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change these facts:

- Stone Mountain is racist.
- Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.

No one may care about those facts today, even in the wake of what happened in 2017. But there will be someone, someday who will find this thread. And they will care that someone cared.

John Young is dead. Duke & Mattingly are still alive. Time is very short for anyone who cares to get direct answers on this issue from the people who made these decisions.

...and that's plural because I include "Casper" as part of this.

~ CT

[Stuf4]

I wrote:
> From Jeff Findley:
> > In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990...@googlegroups.com>,
> > tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> <snip>
>
> > No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
> > know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life
> > who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
> > those.
> >
> > Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real
> > evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
> >
> > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed
> > miserably to clear that bar.
>
>
> It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
>
> - Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
> - The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.
>
>
> Beyond these two obvious facts, I elaborated with some opinion. You are free to reject any and all of that opinion. You're even free to reject any and all of the objective fact.
>
> A point made early on in this thread was how the year 2017 included many people across America gaining awareness about blatant racism that has long gone overlooked.
>
> 2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change these facts:
>
> - Stone Mountain is racist.
> - Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.

Here is a set of objective facts that had been highlighted early on in this thread, several months ago:

===============================

Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.

Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.

Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.

Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.

===============================


These simple facts receive the response:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

This is what is known as burying one's head in the sand.
"If I just ignore these facts, they will go away."

~ CT

[Dean Markley]

You are the only person in this group making the claims. Ever hear of the phrase "pissing into the wind"?

[Stuf4]

From Dean Markley:

> On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 6:12:35 AM UTC-4, Stuf4 wrote:
> > I wrote:

<snip>

> > > 2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent
> > > attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of
> > > gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as
> > > vehemently as you want. It will never change these facts:
> > >
> > > - Stone Mountain is racist.
> > > - Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.
> >
> >
> > Here is a set of objective facts that had been highlighted early on in this
> > thread, several months ago:
> >
> > ===============================
> > Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain
> > in Georgia.
> >
> > Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and
> > went to college.
> >
> > Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month
> > prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
> >
> > Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate,
> > in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as
> > being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin
> > Luther King.
> > ===============================
> >
> >
> > These simple facts receive the response:
> > "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
> >
> >
> > This is what is known as burying one's head in the sand.
> > "If I just ignore these facts, they will go away."

> You are the only person in this group making the claims. Ever hear of the
> phrase "pissing into the wind"?

Hard facts have been highlighted. No one disputes the fact that John Young grew up and went to college several miles from Stone Mountain. And it is an indisputable objective fact that Stone Mountain has a legacy entrenched in racism.

I am not merely the only person in this group who has highlighted these facts. As far as I'm aware, there is no one else on the planet who has taken note of this connection.

The extent that anyone else has done, from what I've seen, is to note that John Young has this personal connection to this Georgia landmark, and that's why he and his crew honored Stone Mountain at their lunar landing site.

It is not a "claim" that Stone Mountain has strong ties to racism. This is well established fact.

So for me to point out that Young & co deliberately brought that legacy up to the Moon does not constitute a claim. It is simple fact.


The question that remains open, as reflected in the original thread title chosen, was whether or not the intention to bring the racist aspects of that were part of the reason.

...and I have clearly stated my opinion on that early on in this thread. I said that I do not believe that John Young was racist. If he was, I never saw that side of him in any of my interactions with the man.

So for me to conclude that at the very least, he was racially insensitive...
...that too is not a claim. It is a simple logical result that falls straight out from the objective facts.


The title of this thread is:

"John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?"

I have shared my opinion. I don't think he was a racist. And I have not seen evidence strong enough to support that he was a racist sympathizer.

I could be mistaken on both of those counts. But on the conclusion that at minimum he was lacking sensitivity, I see that to be an unavoidable fact.


I totally understand how me putting so much effort into highlighting these plain facts can be taken to be "pissing into the wind". That's been attributed to this observation that no one, here in 2018, cares to connect these obvious facts. Everyone who has piped in to date has shown their desire to bury their heads in the sand.


Look how long it took for anyone to care about Bill Cosby. All of these women were "pissing into the wind", right up to that singular point in history where something flipped. People woke up to reality.

I cringe at once again raising Cosby as an example of how attitudes can change 180 degrees. His is an extreme case with little to do with the space program.

But it is a dramatic, timely, example of how facts can remain the same, yet the tides of people's attitudes shift radically.

This is a key aspect to history that most people ignore. It is the psychology of history. What facts we're willing to examine, versus what facts we prefer to ignore.

There are MANY MANY facts about Space History that most people prefer to ignore. This one thing about Stone Mountain is just one such example.

Throughout my decades here on this forum, there have been plenty of other examples. Simple facts that get vehemently rejected. (One that stands out is how Mary Shafer Iliff vehemently rejected the fact that Americans were terrified by Sputnik, and the obvious implications that its launch delivered.)

~ CT

[Dean Markley]

I believe it has been pointed out more than once that this topic does not belong in this group. It's also been pointed out that you keep bringing it up. I haven't seen anyone else here agree with your rather long-winded statements. So here's a clue: Just drop it.

[Stuf4]

From Dean Markley:

> I believe it has been pointed out more than once that this topic does not
> belong in this group. It's also been pointed out that you keep bringing it
> up. I haven't seen anyone else here agree with your rather long-winded
> statements. So here's a clue: Just drop it.

Your comment here makes for a classic case study in just how bizarro world this forum can be.

I am being faulted on how I "keep bringing it up."

Yet anyone can easily verify for themselves that this topic had laid dormant for 3 entire months, and I had absolutely no involvement in its resurgence this month. I waited til the end of the week before saying anything. There were 5 members who had commented in that timespan. And who was one of them? You.

Gaslight strategy: Take the plain facts as anyone can readily see. Spin it 180 degrees out, and then present that as fact.

Here's a clue for you...

I had already dropped it.


Now let's take a look at this notion that "this topic does not belong in this group."

I have highlighted the name chosen by the Apollo 16 crew for this prominent feature at their landing site at the Descartes Highlands. How in any way shape or form is the Apollo 16 landing site mountain name not considered to be a topic relevant to space history?!

A comment like that goes way beyond gaslighting.

For anyone who would like to return to a grasp of accurate facts, here is a googling of "stone mountain" "apollo 16" restricted only to nasa.gov:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=fflb&ei=_a_8WsD5O5K0sQXKzYjgBg&q=site%3Anasa.gov+%22stone+mountain%22+%22apollo+16%22&oq=site%3Anasa.gov+%22stone+mountain%22+%22apollo+16%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...6125.8772.0.9057.12.12.0.0.0.0.85.630.10.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0....0.FY4Z6N6lsIk

That search returns 250 results.

So it would appear that someone at NASA seems to feel that Stone Mountain is a topic relevant to space history. Even if you don't.


And here's another clue...

If there is any topic you are not interested in seeing here, you have the ability to not click on it. Let alone not comment on it.


But I take your post as further confirmation that this is the real problem that everyone has here. Me highlighting these simple facts has been taken as a threat to the hero worship of these astronauts.

No one wants to think of John Young as possibly having been racist. Even I have said that I don't think he was. So what to do with info that points to the possibility that maybe he was?

Obvious solution: Shoot the messenger.

~ CT

[Dean Markley]

And yet you just brought it up again.

[Jeff Findley]

In article <36aa8dbf-696f-4614...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

>
> From Jeff Findley:
> > In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990...@googlegroups.com>,
> > tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...
> <snip>
>
> > No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
> > know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life
> > who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
> > those.
> >
> > Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real
> > evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
> >
> > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed
> > miserably to clear that bar.
>
>
> It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
>
> - Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
> - The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.

I see you really ought to take a logic and reasoning class. What you
believe to be a fact is not.

The fact is that they named a feature of their landing site after a
geological feature in a Georgia park. At the time, the park that
contains it had been owned by the state of Georgia for more than a
decade (another fact).

Anything beyond that is speculation! Which means your assertion that
there was some sort of racist intent in choosing the name is just that,
an assertion. You're the only one making this assertion. Absent any
actual evidence to support this (e.g. testimony of witnesses who saw
actual racist behavior or heard actual racist speech), it remains an
assertion, *not* a fact.

So why don't you drop it? Again, a Google search on the topic shows
that you're the only one on the entire damn planet making this claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you don't
have.

[Stuf4]

Why don't I drop it? That question has already been answered. I did.

So the proper question here might be, "Why do I persist in responding to these continued objections?"

...and the answer to that is that there are obvious holes in the logic being used in these rebuttals. And I refuse to be gaslighted.

Immediately above your post, Dean has rebuked, "And yet you just brought it up again." ...as though me responding to his post constitutes me 'bringing it up'.

These are the standard ssh twists of fact and distortions that, for anyone who cares about accurate facts, are important to shine a light on as being just that: distortions.

THAT is why I persist in responding.

In your reply here, Jeff, you have distorted my entire argument. You have constructed what is commonly known as a Straw Man. You stated:

"Which means your assertion that there was some sort of racist intent in choosing the name is just that, an assertion. You're the only one making this assertion." - JF


Where exactly did I state that? I don't recall ever arriving at the conclusion that anyone in the Apollo 16 crew, nor anyone in the entire NASA administration had any racist intent behind this use of the name Stone Mountain. I went so far as to repeatedly state my opinion that I don't think John Young was racist.

Anyone who cares to accurately assess the position that I have persistently presented here can clearly see that the factual conclusion I arrived at was that:

- John Young was *racially insensitive* in choosing that name.

And anyone can also clearly see that this was not me singling out John Young. Because I highlighted the point that:

- Racial insensitivity was the *cultural norm* in 1972.

So you can create whatever straw figures you want, and then shoot those down. But the facts cannot be eroded by a simple desire for facts to go away. You can bury your head as deep into the sand as you want. If and when you decide to pull you head back out, those very same facts will be right there staring you in the face. Even if all the history books get rewritten, and every single person forgets what those facts were, the accurate facts will always remain standing for anyone who cares enough to seek them out.


In selecting a title for this topic, I picked:

"John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?"

...and I presented my own answers to those questions.
THAT is where the speculation in this discussion has been. And I chose to give John Young the benefit of doubt.

But I also see these to be UNRESOLVED questions. There are people who knew him much better than I did. And they have the facts that can potentially shine light onto this issue.

THIS is what people who care about Space History do. They don't go around telling each other... "Stop talking about that!" "Don't ask those questions!"

People who care about history hand each other a shovel and say "You can help dig!" "Let's keep looking!" "This is fascinating stuff!"

Yet it is those who prefer hero worship, at the expense of accuracy, who admonish the diggers. Bill Cosby supporters are perhaps the most stark example of recent times. Their concern was to not tarnish Cosby's legacy.


Or to use a fairly recent example from aerospace, this is how we ended up getting a white-washed NTSB official report that did not say so much as a single word about the pilots' (in)actions prior to the bird strike, presenting absolutely no assessment to the general public on how easily the entire incident could have been avoided if these pilots had been properly doing their jobs.
...let alone the decision to not land the plane at perfectly reachable runways such as Teterboro & LaGuardia.

HERO WORSHIP.

In the exact words of an NTSB investigator:
"Nobody wanted to sully Sully." -Katherine Wilson
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrUR3q25g9g&t=20m53s )

THAT's why the NTSB published a sanitized report.
We were given "Sully the hero"
...vs "Sully the guy who needlessly crashed and destroyed a very expensive airliner that could easily have been landed at some perfectly good runways."

...let alone that Skiles' & Sully's primary job during climbout was to 'see & avoid'. A huge flock of Canadian geese that showed up on radar would have been easy to see if they were doing their job of looking to clear their flight path, instead of having their head buried in the checklist or sightseeing.

As Matt Damon in 30 Rock so clearly said about Sully:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgsS_ub1VV4&t=3m26s

"He's not that great. You know what a great pilot would have done? Not hit the birds."


The phenomenon we are seeing here in this thread is that...
"No one wants to sully John Young."

~ CT

[Jeff Findley]

In article <44098994-4e8d-4344...@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-...@excite.com says...

>
> Why don't I drop it? That question has already been answered. I did.
>
> So the proper question here might be, "Why do I persist in responding to these continued objections?"
>
> ...and the answer to that is that there are obvious holes in the logic being used in these rebuttals. And I refuse to be gaslighted.
>

Bullshit. You're not being "gaslighted". I don't know why, but you are
continuing to stir the pot despite any actual evidence. Space
historians don't say "there are questions to be asked" and then sit on
their asses and do nothing. You're no space historian.

You've earned your place in my killfile. I'm getting older and my
tolerance for bullshit is getting smaller.

Maybe I'll let you out of the killfile after a period of time. Maybe.

Plonk!

[Fred J. McCall]

"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,

7 May 2018 23:32:27 -0400:

>"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
>news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7d...@4ax.com...
>>
>>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>>7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
>>
>>>
>>>Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups
>>>available.
>>>
>>
>>I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated
>>summaries and new postings never go through.
>>
>
>Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go
>through.
>

No, they don't. They used to, but they don't any longer.

>
>If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your
>host.
>

My host hasn't changed in ages. It used to work. The behavior of
these groups has changed. The conclusion seems obvious...


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote on Thu, 10 May 2018
22:11:32 -0700 (PDT):

Do you understand that you are a clueless idiot?

[Stuf4]

"...despite any actual evidence."

You either do not know what the word 'evidence' means, or you are deliberately distorting the facts surrounding this issue.

In the former case you are ignorant. But evidence is a simple concept that most elementary school kids have a solid handle on. So this points to the latter case, which indicates that it is you who are doing the gaslighting.

~ CT

--------
You're not being "gaslighted". - Jeff Findley
--------



From Jeff Findley:

[Stuf4]

From Fred J. McCall:

What is clear is that this forum is an abusive cesspool.
The antithesis of "science".


Say that while John Young was alive, he was giving a public talk and was asked the question:

"On your Apollo 16 mission, you applied the name Stone Mountain at your landing site. Given the attention that Stone Mountain in Georgia has been given in recent years, do you have any second thoughts about this mountain's legacy being transported to the Moon?"

Of course, we will never know how he would have responded.
(Unless someone did ask him about this.)

...but I would like to think that he would have given a much more thoughtful response than how folks here on this forum have responded. It's hard for me to imagine John Young saying...

"You're a clueless idiot for asking that question."


The Emperor's New Clothes comes to mind. There are just some things that are not to be questioned.


I am reminded of the very first time that this forum came unglued because of something that I had called into question. I had pointed out that the standard story of why Armstrong had been first did not hold water. I supported that with a wealth of info, such as how he had been tapped to be the Astronaut Representative for the Lunar Lander Training Vehicle very early on. WAY before the Apollo rotation was set. I included many other salient facts.

People here FREAKED. No one wanted to hear it. And this was not a hot button topic like racism. It was simply the reasons behind how Armstrong came to be first to step on the Moon. The backlash was like a religious convention being told that there is no God.

I had dared to challenge one of their gods. Or rather, I had shined light on how one of their stories held to be sacred was actually a myth. Those who have been living in the dark for a long time do not like having bright light shined. It hurts their eyes. The darkness is a much more comfortable state to be in.

~ CT

[Fred J. McCall]

Stuf4 <tdadamemd-...@excite.com> wrote on Thu, 7 Jun 2018
14:20:39 -0700 (PDT):

No. What is true is that you are a racist idiot and need to STFU.

>
>Say that while John Young was alive, he was giving a public talk and was asked the question:
>
>"On your Apollo 16 mission, you applied the name Stone Mountain at your landing site. Given the attention that Stone Mountain in Georgia has been given in recent years, do you have any second thoughts about this mountain's legacy being transported to the Moon?"
>

Say that monkeys fly out your butt...

>
>Of course, we will never know how he would have responded.
>(Unless someone did ask him about this.)
>
>...but I would like to think that he would have given a much more thoughtful response than how folks here on this forum have responded. It's hard for me to imagine John Young saying...
>
>"You're a clueless idiot for asking that question."
>

It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
were fake.

<snip remaining idiocy>


--
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s
neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious
intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the
people next door are headed for hell."
-- Aleister Crowley

[Jeff Findley]

In article <sgmkhdluij3b467cl...@4ax.com>,
fjmc...@gmail.com says...

> It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
> punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
> were fake.
>
> <snip remaining idiocy>
>

Actually it was Buzz Aldrin. Cite:

That time when Buzz Aldrin punches moon landing denier Bart Sibrel
May 28, 2017 Brad Smithfield
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/05/28/that-time-when-buzz-aldrin-
punches-moon-landing-denier-bart-sibrel/

It was a beautiful moment in history when someone who actually walked on
the moon punched a moon landing denier in the face.

[Fred J. McCall]

Jeff Findley <jfin...@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote on Fri, 8 Jun 2018
06:56:13 -0400:

>In article <sgmkhdluij3b467cl...@4ax.com>,
>fjmc...@gmail.com says...
>> It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
>> punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
>> were fake.
>>
>> <snip remaining idiocy>
>>
>
>Actually it was Buzz Aldrin. Cite:
>

Sorry. I knew I wasn't sure about who did it without looking it up. I
probably should have just avoided giving a name.


--
"I was lucky in the order. But I've always been lucky
when it comes to killin' folks."
-- William Munny, "Unforgiven"

[Jeff Findley]

In article <rnqlhdhsjtc3k45kt...@4ax.com>,
fjmc...@gmail.com says...

>
> Jeff Findley <jfin...@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote on Fri, 8 Jun 2018
> 06:56:13 -0400:
>
> >In article <sgmkhdluij3b467cl...@4ax.com>,
> >fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> >> It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
> >> punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
> >> were fake.
> >>
> >> <snip remaining idiocy>
> >>
> >
> >Actually it was Buzz Aldrin. Cite:
> >
>
> Sorry. I knew I wasn't sure about who did it without looking it up. I
> probably should have just avoided giving a name.

Your point was still valid. Also, the moon landing denier had it
coming. You can't expect to harass someone that viciously without some
sort of retaliation.

[Greg (Strider) Moore]

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message

news:do1jhd1prk5qi09u7...@4ax.com...

>
>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>7 May 2018 23:32:27 -0400:
>
>>"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
>>news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7d...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>>>7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated
>>>>groups
>>>>available.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated
>>>summaries and new postings never go through.
>>>
>>
>>Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go
>>through.
>>
>
>No, they don't. They used to, but they don't any longer.

Umm, yes, they do. If they get to the moderator and they're on-topic and
non-abusive, they will be approved.

>
>>
>>If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your
>>host.
>>
>
>My host hasn't changed in ages. It used to work. The behavior of
>these groups has changed. The conclusion seems obvious...
>
>

The only real change has been the addition of the automatic feeds.

[Fred J. McCall]

"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Sat,
9 Jun 2018 08:58:18 -0400:

>"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
>news:do1jhd1prk5qi09u7...@4ax.com...
>>
>>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>>7 May 2018 23:32:27 -0400:
>>
>>>"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
>>>news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7d...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
>>>>7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated
>>>>>groups
>>>>>available.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated
>>>>summaries and new postings never go through.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go
>>>through.
>>>
>>
>>No, they don't. They used to, but they don't any longer.
>
>Umm, yes, they do. If they get to the moderator and they're on-topic and
>non-abusive, they will be approved.
>

Obviously our experience varies.

>
>>
>>>
>>>If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your
>>>host.
>>>
>>
>>My host hasn't changed in ages. It used to work. The behavior of
>>these groups has changed. The conclusion seems obvious...
>>
>
>The only real change has been the addition of the automatic feeds.
>

Replying has worked for me since then, but it doesn't work now.


--
"Well, I met a girl in West Hollywood. I ain't naming names.
She really worked me over good. She was just like Jesse James.
She really worked me over good. She was a credit to her gender.
She put me through some changes, Lord.
Sort of like a Waring blender."
-- Warren Zevon, "Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me"

[hlwd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 4:11:19 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
> John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
> was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
> particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
>
> No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
>
> With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
> throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
> flag on this.
>
> John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
> alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
> surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
> this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
> months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
> this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
> for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
>
> Was John Young racist?
>
> And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
> his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
> doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
> myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
>
> ~ CT

Balderdash!

[Dean Markley]

A bit late to the party, aren't you? LOL