Help! Bob Lazar making me a believer!
urb...@novax.llnl.gov
Path: novax.llnl.gov!urbina
From: urb...@novax.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Help ! Bob Lazar making me a believer!
Message-ID: <1994Jan5...@novax.llnl.gov>
Date: 5 Jan 94 21:18:14 PST
Lines: 71
Hi all,
I've just read the testimonial given by Robert Lazar who claims that he was a
member of a compartmentalized team of researchers that were reverse engineering
an extraterrestrial vehicle at site S-4 inside Area 51 within the Nevada Test
Site. My skeptical foundations are beginning to crumble, please debunk !
I've heard of strange rumours before, but until I really started reading up
on Bob Lazar (not through saucer rags mind you) and Area 51, I'm starting to
become a believer. Being a resident of the National Laboratory community, it
really unsettled me.
1.) Robert Lazar was a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New
Mexico. I've confirmed this by looking at an old LANL phone book. Why does the
U.S. Government claim they know nothing of him ? What are they trying to hide ?
I watched a court room scene with Mr. Lazar and a municipal judge was puzzled
because he could not find out what Mr. Lazar did for a living because the U.S.
Government would not provide any information other than w-2's from the Naval
Research Laboratory. I get a sense of government cover up. I might add: I
recently mentioned Bob Lazar's name in front of some visiting LANL researchers:
Their faces registered surprise and one pulled me aside and gave me a finger
across the throat gesture and said "Don't talk about that here."
2.) Mr. Lazar claims he had a security clearance 37 levels higher than a
Q-clearance (A DOE clearance which is roughly but not quite equivalent to a Top
Secret Clearance allows one with apropos need to know to work with secret
restricted data)
Mr. Lazar claims he received this Clearance by executive order from the office
of the President (Reagan). I have heard through the grape vine but with no
proof of very high compartmentalized clearances. I'm convinced they exist.
3.)Mr. Lazar claims Dr. Edward Teller referred him for the job function at Area
51 because of his jet propulsion background. Would be interesting to note if
Dr. Teller was ever asked about MR. Lazar and if he denies knowing or referring
him for this job function.
4.)Area 51. What goes on there ? Why so secretive ? From talking with people
who worked around that area in the past, I've found out some common points of
interest: a.) You are not allowed to ask about it. b.) It is an exclusion area
with deadly force authorized. c.) It has it's own special response team and
security force, these security personnel have no nomenclatures on their uniform
and will not answer any questions. d.) all the people I have asked about it
have reported seeing strange lights above Groom lake. e.) personnel that have
limited access to Area 51 are blindfolded and escorted to their destination,
perform their job function and are blindfolded on the way back to Mercury.
5.) Bob Lazar claims he and others studied a saucer shaped object, he was part
of a team that were to reverse engineer the propulsion system, other
compartmentalized teams studied the metallurgy and communication systems. All
were highly advanced and were painstakingly and meticulously studied. There was
great worry of activating controls for fear of not being able to control it or
turn it off.
6.) Why did Bob Lazar come out with an outrageous story like this ? What does
he have to gain ? Lose ? As far as I know he still stands by his story.
7.) Has anybody here debated or debunked Bob Lazar's claims ? I was a UFO
skeptic until I read his testimonial, I still find it unsettling.
8.) Can anyone here tell me the official sci.skeptic response to Bob Lazar's
UFO reverse engineering story. I would really appreciate it.
I'm really interested of what Philipp J. Klass has to say about it.
Thanks for the help.
-Guy
Rick Duffy
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> ...
>
Hi. First I've heard of this. These are my reactions to the comments
given:
> 1.) Robert Lazar was a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New
> Mexico. I've confirmed this by looking at an old LANL phone book. Why does the
> U.S. Government claim they know nothing of him ? What are they trying to hide ?
> I watched a court room scene with Mr. Lazar and a municipal judge was puzzled
> because he could not find out what Mr. Lazar did for a living because the U.S.
> Government would not provide any information other than w-2's from the Naval
> Research Laboratory. I get a sense of government cover up. I might add: I
> recently mentioned Bob Lazar's name in front of some visiting LANL researchers:
>
> Their faces registered surprise and one pulled me aside and gave me a finger
> across the throat gesture and said "Don't talk about that here."
If the guy did some heavy classified work, would it be unusual for the fed
to not want it discussed in public?
>
> 2.) Mr. Lazar claims he had a security clearance 37 levels higher than a
> Q-clearance ...
Bingo.
>
> 3.)Mr. Lazar claims Dr. Edward Teller referred him for the job function at Area
> 51 because of his jet propulsion background. Would be interesting to note if
> Dr. Teller was ever asked about MR. Lazar and if he denies knowing or referring
> him for this job function.
>
> 4.)Area 51. What goes on there ? Why so secretive ? From talking with people
> who worked around that area in the past, I've found out some common points of
> interest: a.) You are not allowed to ask about it. b.) It is an exclusion area
> with deadly force authorized. c.) It has it's own special response team and
> security force, these security personnel have no nomenclatures on their uniform
> and will not answer any questions. d.) all the people I have asked about it
> have reported seeing strange lights above Groom lake. e.) personnel that have
> limited access to Area 51 are blindfolded and escorted to their destination,
> perform their job function and are blindfolded on the way back to Mercury.
>
Nothing here so far leads to UFO conclusions...
> 5.) Bob Lazar claims he and others studied a saucer shaped object, he was part
> of a team that were to reverse engineer the propulsion system, other
> compartmentalized teams studied the metallurgy and communication systems. All
> were highly advanced and were painstakingly and meticulously studied. There was
> great worry of activating controls for fear of not being able to control it or
> turn it off.
This so far is the only thing in this post that has anything to do with
the subject. Let's assume that they are telling the exact truth. Perhaps
in such a compartmentalized environment, it is not unusual for groups of
workers to not know what they are working on. Did they ever SEE this thing
fly - or was that an assumption because it was "saucer shaped"? Possible
other explanations are:
1) It doesn't fly at all, and is in fact part of some other device.
2) We built it in some other "compartment". These guys job was to
determine how easy or hard it would be for another country, etc, to
reverse engineer. Perhaps one of the original requirements when this
thing was built was to make reverse engineering difficult, so this was
a necessary phase of the work.
3) Perhaps some other country built it, and this group is reverse
engineering this particular piece.
4) They say it was "highly advanced". Is this determination in relation
to work Mr. Lazar has seen before. Was this stuff a seeming extension
off of state-of-the-art, suggesting, again, that it was something built
with earth technologies?
These are assuming Mr. Lazar is being completely honest. Is there any
reason we should believe otherwise?
>
> 6.) Why did Bob Lazar come out with an outrageous story like this ? What does
> he have to gain ? Lose ? As far as I know he still stands by his story.
Don't know. Still, these questions in themselves do nothing to strengthen
his statements.
>
> 7.) Has anybody here debated or debunked Bob Lazar's claims ? I was a UFO
> skeptic until I read his testimonial, I still find it unsettling.
>
> 8.) Can anyone here tell me the official sci.skeptic response to Bob Lazar's
> UFO reverse engineering story. I would really appreciate it.
Me too.
...
> -Guy
>
> urb...@novax.llnl.gov
... Rick "I want to find a decent place, where people
du...@pogo.den.mmc.com respect reality. A world where you can keep
rdu...@nyx.cs.du.edu your dreams open at night." -- Wild Palms
Mark Rupright
>In article <1994Jan5...@novax.llnl.gov>, urb...@novax.llnl.gov wrote:
>
>> 4.)Area 51. What goes on there ? Why so secretive ? From talking with people
>> who worked around that area in the past, I've found out some common points of
>> interest: a.) You are not allowed to ask about it. b.) It is an exclusion area
>> with deadly force authorized. c.) It has it's own special response team and
>> security force, these security personnel have no nomenclatures on their uniform
>> and will not answer any questions. d.) all the people I have asked about it
>> have reported seeing strange lights above Groom lake. e.) personnel that have
>> limited access to Area 51 are blindfolded and escorted to their destination,
>> perform their job function and are blindfolded on the way back to Mercury.
>>
>
>Nothing here so far leads to UFO conclusions...
[snip]
>These are assuming Mr. Lazar is being completely honest. Is there any
>reason we should believe otherwise?
>
>>
>> 6.) Why did Bob Lazar come out with an outrageous story like this ? What does
>> he have to gain ? Lose ? As far as I know he still stands by his story.
>
>Don't know. Still, these questions in themselves do nothing to strengthen
>his statements.
How's this for a possibility?
Suppose the government wants people to think Groom Lake and Area 51 house
Flying Saucers. Take a super-secret test area, make it obvious that it's
super-secret, then give out just enough "clues" to make the wackos come
out with all sorts of evidence that it houses aliens and flying saucers.
It's a simple tactic which serves two purposes:
(1) It hides the *real* purpose of the place.
(2) It might just make the "enemy" sink zillions of $ into bogus saucer
research (remember SDI?)
Lazar could likely have the clearance he claims. If so, the govt. would
react as it did no matter what Lazar saw. This reaction just adds to the
"validity" of the UFO story. Lazar could be lying as a part of this
misdirection, or the govt. may have shown him enough for him to really
believe what he's saying. The latter would certainly add to the
authenticity of his claims.
Is this theory more or less plausible than the UFO theory, given the
evidence in question?
___________________________________________________________________________
Mark Rupright | "The great tragedy of science - the slaying of a
UNC Physics | beautiful theory by an ugly fact."
rupr...@physics.unc.edu | Thomas Huxley
Christopher Biow
> 2.) Mr. Lazar claims he had a security clearance 37 levels higher than a
> Q-clearance ...
"Levels?" While there are any number of "compartments" within the
US designation of Top Secret (TS), I'm unaware of any US statute that would
create higher levels than TS. One compartment is not "higher" than
another--just different. NATO does have a "Cosmic," but that's
considered TS by the US gov't.
Donald Lindsay
>2.) Mr. Lazar claims he had a security clearance 37 levels higher
>than a Q-clearance (A DOE clearance which is roughly but not quite
>equivalent to a Top Secret Clearance allows one with apropos need to
>know to work with secret restricted data)
I'm skeptical that such a clearance exists. In particular, I'm
skeptical that any government agency layers 'em 37 deep. And yes,
I once had a high clearance myself (from the Pentagon, not the DOE).
The famous "Pentagon Papers" leak backs me up on this.
What they *do* do, beyond "top secret", is compartmentalize. It's not
layered. Layering would violate the need-to-know rule.
--
Don D.C.Lindsay Carnegie Mellon Computer Science