In the News: 20 changes emphasize evolution as theory

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Jason Spaceman

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Jun 11, 2002, 6:53:43 AM6/11/02
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From today's Columbus Dispatch
http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302415.html

------------------------------------------------------
20 changes emphasize evolution as theory

Tuesday, June 11, 2002

Catherine Candisky
Dispatch Statehouse Reporter

A subcommittee of the State Board of Education may be backing down
from grade-by-grade science standards mandating that students be
taught that Darwin's theory of evolution explains the development of
life on Earth.

In 20 proposed changes to the teaching guidelines, students would
still be taught about evolution but references would underscore that
it is just a theory about human life.

The subcommittee yesterday asked the 45-member writing team of mostly
science teachers who drafted the standards to review the proposed
changes for possible inclusion.

Among the suggestions: replacing "evolution of life'' with "evolution
theory'' and in other instances replacing "evolution'' with
"speciation.''

Another change would eliminate a reference to the "origin'' of life on
Earth.

Despite repeated calls by several committee members, the
recommendations do not mention "intelligent design'' -- the concept
that a supernatural life force was responsible for life on Earth.

Intelligent design advocates on the subcommittee said the fight over
that issue is not over, but they are pleased with the suggestions made
at the board's monthly meeting in Columbus yesterday.

"It's a start,'' said Deborah Owens Fink, a board member from
Richfield and leading advocate for intelligent design.

"There seems to be a heightened sensitivity to (presenting evolution
as) theory vs. fact and about the controversy over the origins of
life.''

Owens Fink and other critics of evolution had asked board members to
lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of evolution in
the standards. They wanted evolution presented as one theory, leaving
open the door for others.

Committee chairman Thomas E. McClain, a board member from Columbus,
put together the proposed changes with co-chairman Joseph D. Roman of
Fairview Park.

McClain said the suggestions are a compilation of the concerns raised
by board members and will be reviewed by the writing team at its June
24-26 meeting.

"These aren't final recommendations in any way,'' McClain said. "We
just want to know how the writing team feels about this.''

He said inclusion of intelligent design was not among the suggestions
because no committee member specifically asked for it.

In January, the committee voted 5-3 to include intelligent design in
the standards, but the resolution was never implemented after McClain
and Roman persuaded their colleagues to take more time to research the
issue. In March, the school board hosted a panel of four national
experts on both sides of the issue that attracted hundreds to
Columbus' Veterans Memorial auditorium.

Since then, the 45-member writing team released a second draft of the
proposed guidelines, opting against adding intelligent design.

"It hasn't been settled,'' Owens Fink said. "It is my hope that the
writing team will consider the public input and this committee's
vote.''

Yesterday's suggestions come after months of debate on whether
students should be taught evolution or other ideas, most notably
should intelligent design be included in instruction.

Although most in the science community support evolution, public
opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.

The committee is expected to issue its recommendations this fall with
a vote of the 19-member school board expected in December. The
guidelines will become the basis for new state standardized tests.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

James Jensen

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Jun 11, 2002, 11:13:03 AM6/11/02
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jspa...@linuxquestions.net (Jason Spaceman) wrote in message news:<b9401f8a.0206...@posting.google.com>...

> From today's Columbus Dispatch
> http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302415.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 20 changes emphasize evolution as theory
>

<snip>

> Owens Fink and other critics of evolution had asked board members to
> lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of evolution in
> the standards. They wanted evolution presented as one theory, leaving
> open the door for others.

I wonder what the other valid scientific theories are...

<snip>

> In March, the school board hosted a panel of four national
> experts on both sides of the issue that attracted hundreds to
> Columbus' Veterans Memorial auditorium.
>
> Since then, the 45-member writing team released a second draft of the
> proposed guidelines, opting against adding intelligent design.
>

It sounds like ID was squashed. Anyone have any links to what went on
in that discussion?


<snip>

> Although most in the science community support evolution, public
> opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
> intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.
>

The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.


----
James Jensen
#1584

Morpheus

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Jun 11, 2002, 12:16:58 PM6/11/02
to

"Jason Spaceman" <jspa...@linuxquestions.net> wrote in message
news:b9401f8a.0206...@posting.google.com...

> From today's Columbus Dispatch
>
http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302
415.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 20 changes emphasize evolution as theory
>
> Tuesday, June 11, 2002
>
> Catherine Candisky
> Dispatch Statehouse Reporter
>
> A subcommittee of the State Board of Education may be backing down
> from grade-by-grade science standards mandating that students be
> taught that Darwin's theory of evolution explains the development of
> life on Earth.
>
> In 20 proposed changes to the teaching guidelines, students would
> still be taught about evolution but references would underscore that
> it is just a theory about human life.
>

Will they also be presenting the atomic theory of matter and the germ theory
of disease as "just theories"?


TomS

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Jun 11, 2002, 12:21:25 PM6/11/02
to
"On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:13:03 +0000 (UTC), in article
<fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com>, james_je...@hotmail.com
stated..."

>
>jspa...@linuxquestions.net (Jason Spaceman) wrote in message
>news:<b9401f8a.0206...@posting.google.com>...
>> From today's Columbus Dispatch
>>http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302415.html
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> 20 changes emphasize evolution as theory
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> Owens Fink and other critics of evolution had asked board members to
>> lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of evolution in
>> the standards. They wanted evolution presented as one theory, leaving
>> open the door for others.
>
>I wonder what the other valid scientific theories are...
[...snip...]

Well, there is the theory that Space Aliens did it. (Without
specifying what the "it" is.)

And there is the Magic Force Field Theory: If something is
Intermediately Complex, it couldn't come about by evolution, nor
by design, so there must be a Magic Force Field which did it. Not
that I have ever found anything that happens to be Intermediately
Complex, but you can't show any other way that it would come about,
if there were such a thing.

Tom S.

Brian O'Neill

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Jun 11, 2002, 1:44:25 PM6/11/02
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"James Jensen" <james_je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com...

> The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
> of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
> clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.

Actually, the wording of the poll - commissioned by the Discovery Institute,
not that this story mentioned it - made it so that I would agree to the
answer.

I think everyone would agree that "science classes should teach all of the
evidence for and against Darwinism," as presented, because that's what
happens when the poll is based on a falicious premise in that it assumes
that there *is* evidence "against Darwinism." There isn't, but if there
was, we'd all want to see it taught.

Of course, the scientific illiteracy of this country doesn't help matters
either.

--
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two years, two months, two days, 15 hours, 45 minutes and 11 seconds.
31746 cigarettes not smoked, saving $3,968.28.
Life saved: 15 weeks, 5 days, 5 hours, 30 minutes.
See my Sig File FAQ: http://pages.prodigy.net/briank.o/SigFAQ.htm


Bobby D. Bryant

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Jun 11, 2002, 1:49:34 PM6/11/02
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:44:25 -0600, Brian O'Neill wrote:

> "James Jensen" <james_je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com...
>
>> The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
>> of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
>> clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.
>
> Actually, the wording of the poll - commissioned by the Discovery Institute,
> not that this story mentioned it - made it so that I would agree to the
> answer.

Yes, someone should commission a counter-poll that asks "Do you
think mythological explanations should be taught alongside
scientific explanations in science class?"

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 11, 2002, 2:08:29 PM6/11/02
to
Brian O'Neill wrote:

> "James Jensen" <james_je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com...
>
> > The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
> > of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
> > clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.
>
> Actually, the wording of the poll - commissioned by the Discovery Institute,
> not that this story mentioned it - made it so that I would agree to the
> answer.
>
> I think everyone would agree that "science classes should teach all of the
> evidence for and against Darwinism," as presented, because that's what
> happens when the poll is based on a falicious premise in that it assumes
> that there *is* evidence "against Darwinism." There isn't, but if there
> was, we'd all want to see it taught.
>
> Of course, the scientific illiteracy of this country doesn't help matters
> either.

Agreed. I took a public speaking / rhetoric class in college (it was,
surprisingly enough, a mandatory requirement for a college degree in
California.) One of the units we covered was on analyzing questions found on
polls and surveys for logical formation. A different class on sociology covered
the importance of precise and consistent phrasing. One of the homework
assignments in that class was to take pressing social issue of our choice and
come up with two versions of a poll using similarly worded questions where those
on one side of the issue would agree completely with the first poll and those on
the other side would agree with the second version. And a math class on
statistics had some interesting things to say regarding the manipulation of raw
data during the gathering stage.

You don't necessarily need to know about science to answer general surveys
measuring popular opinion, even if the opinions are in regard to science. You
DO, however, need to know how to analyze the kinds of questions you being asked.
I have often refused to participate because the questions are misleading.
--
Gregory Gadow
tech...@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe
in one fewer god than you do. When you understand
why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you
will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F. Roberts

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 11, 2002, 2:11:02 PM6/11/02
to
"Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:

That makes a values judgement which invalidates the question: to fundies, their
religious myths are not myths, they are religious truth. Ask, rather, "Do you
believe that scientific theories contrary to all available evidence should be
taught on equal footing with scientific theories that fit all available evidence?"

Dr H

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Jun 11, 2002, 2:33:47 PM6/11/02
to

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Jason Spaceman wrote:

}From today's Columbus Dispatch
}http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302415.html
}
}------------------------------------------------------
}20 changes emphasize evolution as theory
}
}Tuesday, June 11, 2002
}
}Catherine Candisky
}Dispatch Statehouse Reporter
}
}A subcommittee of the State Board of Education may be backing down
}from grade-by-grade science standards mandating that students be
}taught that Darwin's theory of evolution explains the development of
}life on Earth.
}
}In 20 proposed changes to the teaching guidelines, students would
}still be taught about evolution but references would underscore that
}it is just a theory about human life.

Are they also going to stress that everything taught in their history
and social studies classes are "just theories"?

}The subcommittee yesterday asked the 45-member writing team of mostly
}science teachers who drafted the standards to review the proposed
}changes for possible inclusion.
}
}Among the suggestions: replacing "evolution of life'' with "evolution
}theory'' and in other instances replacing "evolution'' with
}"speciation.''
}
}Another change would eliminate a reference to the "origin'' of life on
}Earth.
}
}Despite repeated calls by several committee members, the
}recommendations do not mention "intelligent design'' -- the concept
}that a supernatural life force was responsible for life on Earth.
}
}Intelligent design advocates on the subcommittee said the fight over
}that issue is not over, but they are pleased with the suggestions made
}at the board's monthly meeting in Columbus yesterday.
}
}"It's a start,'' said Deborah Owens Fink, a board member from
}Richfield and leading advocate for intelligent design.
}
}"There seems to be a heightened sensitivity to (presenting evolution
}as) theory vs. fact and about the controversy over the origins of
}life.''

I hope that this person, who doesn't know the meaning of "theory"
was not one of the alleged "science teachers" on the committee.

}Owens Fink and other critics of evolution had asked board members to
}lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of evolution in
}the standards. They wanted evolution presented as one theory, leaving
}open the door for others.

Velikovsky and Van Daniken live!!!

[...]


}
}Although most in the science community support evolution, public
}opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
}intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.

What about separation of church and state? Are all their schools
now going to be parochial schools? What particular religion has
the State decided to advocate?

Dr H


TomS

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Jun 11, 2002, 2:37:31 PM6/11/02
to
"On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:49:34 +0000 (UTC), in article
<ae5d8q$53v$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, "Bobby stated..."

Ahem. Intelligent Design is *not* a "mythological explanation".

It is not a mythological explanation *because* it is *not* an
explanation. It does not even *attempt* to explain anything. It is
an attempt, at best, to deny evolutionary explanations. Without
offering *anything* better.

A mythological explanation would be something like the story of
Persephone which explains (well, *attempts* to explain) the coming of
spring.

If you want to have a counter-poll, how about "Do you think that
children should be taught the theory that they were designed by
space aliens?"

Tom S.

Bobby D. Bryant

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Jun 11, 2002, 3:56:09 PM6/11/02
to
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:11:02 -0600, Gregory Gadow wrote:

> That makes a values judgement which invalidates the question:

That's my whole point: when a poll is trying to get certain
results, you rig it by carefully phrasing the questions. And one
way of doing that is to ensure that the questions are understood
one way when the poll is taken and another way when the results
were presented.

And that appears to be what was done here. Notice that several
people here in the scientists' camp have said they would agree to
one of the assertions. Yet the creationists present it as an
argument for adding pseudo-science to the public school curriculum.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Gregory Gadow

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Jun 11, 2002, 4:07:10 PM6/11/02
to
"Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:11:02 -0600, Gregory Gadow wrote:
>
> > That makes a values judgement which invalidates the question:
>
> That's my whole point: when a poll is trying to get certain
> results, you rig it by carefully phrasing the questions. And one
> way of doing that is to ensure that the questions are understood
> one way when the poll is taken and another way when the results
> were presented.

Yup. Like I said, I had a class assignment in college exploring exactly
that.

> And that appears to be what was done here. Notice that several
> people here in the scientists' camp have said they would agree to
> one of the assertions. Yet the creationists present it as an
> argument for adding pseudo-science to the public school curriculum.

Agreed. I only wish people who answered surveys and such would actually
take the time and analyze the content of the questions.

Elf Sternberg

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Jun 11, 2002, 5:01:59 PM6/11/02
to
>20 changes emphasize gravity as theory

>
>Tuesday, June 11, 2002
>
>Catherine Candisky
>Dispatch Statehouse Reporter
>
>A subcommittee of the State Board of Education may be backing down from
>grade-by-grade science standards mandating that students be taught that
>Newton's theory of gravity explains why things stay down.

>
>In 20 proposed changes to the teaching guidelines, students would still
>be taught about gravity but references would underscore that it is just
>a theory about why things stay down.

>
>The subcommittee yesterday asked the 45-member writing team of mostly
>science teachers who drafted the standards to review the proposed
>changes for possible inclusion.
>
>Among the suggestions: replacing "gravity" with "gravity theory" and in
>other instances replacing "gravity" with "suction."
>
>Another change would eliminate a reference to the "cause" of gravity.

>
>Despite repeated calls by several committee members, the
>recommendations do not mention "intelligent grappling" -- the concept
>that a supernatural force is responsible for holding things down.
>
>Intelligent grappling advocates on the subcommittee said the fight over

>that issue is not over, but they are pleased with the suggestions made
>at the board's monthly meeting in Columbus yesterday.
>
>"It's a start,'' said Deborah Owens Fink, a board member from
>Richfield and leading advocate for intelligent grappling.
>
>"There seems to be a heightened sensitivity to (presenting gravity
>as) theory vs. fact and about the controversy over the causes of gravity."
>
>Owens Fink and other critics of gravity had asked board members to
>lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of gravity in the
>standards. They wanted gravity presented as one theory, leaving open

>the door for others.
>
>Committee chairman Thomas E. McClain, a board member from Columbus,
>put together the proposed changes with co-chairman Joseph D. Roman of
>Fairview Park.
>
>McClain said the suggestions are a compilation of the concerns raised
>by board members and will be reviewed by the writing team at its June
>24-26 meeting.
>
>"These aren't final recommendations in any way,'' McClain said. "We
>just want to know how the writing team feels about this.''
>
>He said inclusion of intelligent grappling was not among the

>suggestions because no committee member specifically asked for it.
>
>In January, the committee voted 5-3 to include intelligent grappling in

>the standards, but the resolution was never implemented after McClain
>and Roman persuaded their colleagues to take more time to research the
>issue. In March, the school board hosted a panel of four national
>experts on both sides of the issue that attracted hundreds to Columbus'
>Veterans Memorial auditorium.
>
>Since then, the 45-member writing team released a second draft of the
>proposed guidelines, opting against adding intelligent grappling.

>
>"It hasn't been settled," Owens Fink said. "It is my hope that the
>writing team will consider the public input and this committee's
>vote."
>
>Yesterday's suggestions come after months of debate on whether students
>should be taught gravity or other ideas, most notably should
>intelligent grappling be included in instruction.
>
>Although most in the science community support gravity, public opinion
>polls have shown that most Americans believe the Earth sucks or
>intelligent grappling and want it included in classroom instruction.

>
>The committee is expected to issue its recommendations this fall with
>a vote of the 19-member school board expected in December. The
>guidelines will become the basis for new state standardized tests.

--
Elf M. Sternberg
Disproportionately Popular Among Homosexuals.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)

Graham Shevlin

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Jun 11, 2002, 7:04:02 PM6/11/02
to

Er, perhaps I am getting too old...what is Intelligent Grappling? I
have never heard of this concept...

danarchist

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Jun 11, 2002, 7:00:54 PM6/11/02
to
"Morpheus" <car...@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message news:
[snip]

> Will they also be presenting the atomic theory of matter and the germ theory
> of disease as "just theories"?

The door must be open for Americun students to learn about the
Submolecular Duct-tape theory of matter and the Don't Say Naughty
Words theory of disease. Down with the dictatorship of mainstream
science!

Dan Ensign

Kirstin

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Jun 11, 2002, 7:49:17 PM6/11/02
to
james_je...@hotmail.com (James Jensen) wrote in message news:<fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com>...

> jspa...@linuxquestions.net (Jason Spaceman) wrote in message news:<b9401f8a.0206...@posting.google.com>...
> > From today's Columbus Dispatch
> > http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.php?story=dispatch/news/news02/jun02/1302415.html
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > 20 changes emphasize evolution as theory
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> > Owens Fink and other critics of evolution had asked board members to
> > lighten what they perceived as a strong endorsement of evolution in
> > the standards. They wanted evolution presented as one theory, leaving
> > open the door for others.
>
> I wonder what the other valid scientific theories are...

they didn't say other "scientific" theories - they just said other
theories - personally, i like the group in portland who tried to get the
shiva-dancing-the-universe-into-existence theory taught alongside
the big bang - strangely, it wasn't even considered along with the christian
creation version...

> > In March, the school board hosted a panel of four national
> > experts on both sides of the issue that attracted hundreds to
> > Columbus' Veterans Memorial auditorium.
> >
> > Since then, the 45-member writing team released a second draft of the
> > proposed guidelines, opting against adding intelligent design.
> >
>
> It sounds like ID was squashed. Anyone have any links to what went on
> in that discussion?

i dunno if you can say it was "squashed" - it's just that scientific
literacy hasn't quite fallen to point where it could be included - however,
since they still did manage to dilute scientific education, it's still
a victory for them - the less people know about science in general, the
more of a chance the cretins have of pushing their religion - a fact of
which they're very aware, i'm sure...

> > Although most in the science community support evolution, public
> > opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
> > intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.

> The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
> of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
> clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.

right
most americans don't know that acceleration is the derivative of
velocity, either, or that angular momentum is conserved, but I don't
see anyone trying to remove Newton's theories from the classroom...

kirstinn

Earle Jones

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Jun 11, 2002, 8:05:10 PM6/11/02
to
In article <42c7a17.02061...@posting.google.com>,
dana...@yahoo.com (danarchist) wrote:

*
And we mustn't leave out the "Hair-will-grow-in-the-palm-of-your-hands-
if-you-keep-doing-that-nasty-thing" theory.

earle
*

tim gueguen

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Jun 11, 2002, 9:14:38 PM6/11/02
to

"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSU.4.21.020611...@garcia.efn.org...
>

}
> }Although most in the science community support evolution, public
> }opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
> }intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.
>
> What about separation of church and state? Are all their schools
> now going to be parochial schools? What particular religion has
> the State decided to advocate?
>

But as you may know some of the religious kookies believe US public schools
indoctrinate students in Secular Humanism, which they claim is a religion.

tim gueguen 101867

Pete Schult

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Jun 11, 2002, 9:39:07 PM6/11/02
to
In article <3D0657FE...@serv.net>,
Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote:

> "Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:11:02 -0600, Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > > That makes a values judgement which invalidates the question:
> >
> > That's my whole point: when a poll is trying to get certain
> > results, you rig it by carefully phrasing the questions. And one
> > way of doing that is to ensure that the questions are understood
> > one way when the poll is taken and another way when the results
> > were presented.
>
> Yup. Like I said, I had a class assignment in college exploring exactly
> that.
>
> > And that appears to be what was done here. Notice that several
> > people here in the scientists' camp have said they would agree to
> > one of the assertions. Yet the creationists present it as an
> > argument for adding pseudo-science to the public school curriculum.
>
> Agreed. I only wish people who answered surveys and such would actually
> take the time and analyze the content of the questions.

I have been called by pollsters with fairly obvious agendas asking
loaded questions that were worded in such a way that I would have had to
give them the answer they were looking for in order to answer the
surface question honestly. I told them that I wasn't interested in
responding to biased polls and hung up. I don't know what they claimed I
answered.

--Pete Schult

Pete Schult

unread,
Jun 11, 2002, 10:15:47 PM6/11/02
to
In article <Pine.GSU.4.21.020611...@garcia.efn.org>,
Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:

>
> What about separation of church and state? Are all their schools
> now going to be parochial schools? What particular religion has
> the State decided to advocate?

Presumably, they want to get back to the days before the various SC
decisions of the '60s and later that ended government schools' teaching
a least-common-denominator Protestantism. I think that now the
denominator they want might be called lcd Fundamentalism since mainline
Protestant groups (at least the leaders thereof) tend to favor the
separation of church and state.

For an idea of what lcdFism entails, see
<http://www.reformation.net/cor/cordocs/42Articles.pdf>.

--Pete

Apostate

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Jun 11, 2002, 10:38:01 PM6/11/02
to

Well, to begin with, derivatives are from Satan, because they
implicitly allow division by zero! And if god turned his back on
things for an instant, so much for conservation of angular momentum!
Hah!!

--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
plonked by vernon; lusted after by turin
I doubt, therefore I might be.

Wayne Bagguley

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Jun 12, 2002, 5:39:47 AM6/12/02
to
Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message news:<3D063CC6...@serv.net>...

> "Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:44:25 -0600, Brian O'Neill wrote:
> >
> > > "James Jensen" <james_je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > >> The one thing wrong with opinion polls is that they are an indicator
> > >> of opinions, not facts. The revelations presented by this poll
> > >> clearly suggest the existence of a lot of low-wattage bipeds.
> > >
> > > Actually, the wording of the poll - commissioned by the Discovery Institute,
> > > not that this story mentioned it - made it so that I would agree to the
> > > answer.
> >
> > Yes, someone should commission a counter-poll that asks "Do you
> > think mythological explanations should be taught alongside
> > scientific explanations in science class?"
>
> That makes a values judgement which invalidates the question: to fundies, their
> religious myths are not myths, they are religious truth. Ask, rather, "Do you
> believe that scientific theories contrary to all available evidence should be
> taught on equal footing with scientific theories that fit all available evidence?"

But then you are making a value judgement that their religious myths are
valid scientific theories when they are not. They are not even scientific
hypotheses because they don't even attempt to describe actual facts. They
should be labelled as such and we shouldn't be afraid about offending their
religious sensibilities. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.

-
Wayne

Derek Stevenson

unread,
Jun 12, 2002, 8:46:39 AM6/12/02
to
"Earle Jones" <earle...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:earle.jones-84D0...@netnews.attbi.com...

> In article <42c7a17.02061...@posting.google.com>,
> dana...@yahoo.com (danarchist) wrote:

> > The door must be open for Americun students to learn about the
> > Submolecular Duct-tape theory of matter and the Don't Say Naughty
> > Words theory of disease. Down with the dictatorship of mainstream
> > science!
>

> And we mustn't leave out the "Hair-will-grow-in-the-palm-of-your-hands-
> if-you-keep-doing-that-nasty-thing" theory.

Too easy to experimentally disconfirm, especially at that age.

(Of course, "too easy to experimentally disconfirm" never stopped the
creationists, so don't let that worry you.)


Noctiluca

unread,
Jun 12, 2002, 12:26:12 PM6/12/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1023829363.315984@yasure>...

Slam-dunk.
Well done.
Ball's in your court IDers.

robert

lanny budd

unread,
Jun 12, 2002, 1:20:56 PM6/12/02
to
Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote in message news:<3D063CC6...@serv.net>...
> "Bobby D. Bryant" wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:44:25 -0600, Brian O'Neill wrote:
> >
> > > "James Jensen" <james_je...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:fbe9a0d8.0206...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> religious myths are not myths, they are religious truth. Ask, rather, "Do you
> believe that scientific theories contrary to all available evidence should be
> taught on equal footing with scientific theories that fit all available evidence?"

If it is contrary to all available evidence, it cannot be called a theory.

Clothaire

unread,
Jun 12, 2002, 11:53:30 PM6/12/02
to

Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
in Heaven anyway

Clothaire#1392

"In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche

Mike Lepore

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 1:09:26 AM6/13/02
to
lanny budd wrote:

I see the problem differently. Creationism isn't contrary to evidence. It's failure
is that it's consistent with any evidence. Why is the DNA of a human so similar
to the DNA of a chimpanzee. Answer: It's the will of God. Why are fossils of
mammals found in younger rock and fossils of extinct reptiles found in older
rock. Answer: It's the will of God. That approach is unsciecntific because it
has no predictive power, so it's can't be tested by science. Teachers should
just explain to their students that competing models are compared according
to how consistent they are with observations. Creationism places itself
outside the whole test process. We can compare Darwinism to Lamarcksm,
etc., but creationism doesn't have a single necessary consequence that
might be observed.

--

Mike Lepore email lepore ,
at ; idsi - dot ,
net delete the 5

http://www.crimsonbird.com/

Bill Rogers

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 8:39:12 AM6/13/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message <snip something wonderful>

>
> Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
> discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
> in Heaven anyway
>
> Clothaire#1392
>
> "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
> reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
> 'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
> imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
> 'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche

What do you mean it's not in the Bible? Wait a bit, and someone will
post a proof that not only is the inverse sqaure law in the Bible,
along with the numerical value of G, but also gravitational
distortions of time. It's all there. Really. You just have to know how
to look.

grelbr

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 9:34:29 AM6/13/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1023829363.315984@yasure>...
> >20 changes emphasize gravity as theory

Gravity is a myth! The Earth sucks!

A hint to the posters in this thread. If your added text is
so far down after your quotes that it does not show in the
google reading window, you won't get read. Maybe that's your
goal. But standard usenet nettiquette is to quote only what
you need for context, not the entire damn article to put
some stupid four word response at the end.
grelbr

TomS

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 10:51:09 AM6/13/02
to
"On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:39:12 +0000 (UTC), in article
<8984713a.02061...@posting.google.com>, bro...@noguchi.mimcom.net
stated..."

Let's not waste our time on gravity. How about the most abundant
form of life on earth, the "microbes". (By any measure. Number, total
mass, ubiquity, time, environments, variety.) There is no mention of
them in the Bible. It doesn't tell us that they did not evolve. It
doesn't tell us that God designed them. Despite all of the cleanliness
codes in Leviticus, it doesn't tell us "wash your hands" or "boil your
drinking water".

Tom S.

Noctiluca

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 12:16:06 PM6/13/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com>...

I would think not, what with everything floating on fluffy, white clouds.

Dr H

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 2:22:58 PM6/13/02
to

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, tim gueguen wrote:
}
}"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message
} }
}> }Although most in the science community support evolution, public
}> }opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe in creationism or
}> }intelligent design and want it included in classroom instruction.
}>
}> What about separation of church and state? Are all their schools
}> now going to be parochial schools? What particular religion has
}> the State decided to advocate?
}>
}But as you may know some of the religious kookies believe US public schools
}indoctrinate students in Secular Humanism, which they claim is a religion.

But hey, according to George Hammond you can't have a religion without
a god. So I guess that lets Humanism off hte hook. ;)

Dr H

James Jensen

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 3:30:37 PM6/13/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1023829363.315984@yasure>...
> >20 changes emphasize gravity as theory

<snip satire>

LOL!


----
James Jensen
#1584

stoney

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 3:46:15 PM6/13/02
to
On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:53:30 +0000 (UTC), Clothaire
<Clot...@ieee.org>, Message ID:
<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com> wrote in alt.atheism;

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:26:12 +0000 (UTC), seeingis...@VolcanoMail.com
>(Noctiluca) wrote:
>
>>e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1023829363.315984@yasure>...
>>> >20 changes emphasize gravity as theory

(snip)

>>> >Although most in the science community support gravity, public opinion
>>> >polls have shown that most Americans believe the Earth sucks or
>>> >intelligent grappling and want it included in classroom instruction.
>>> >
>>> >The committee is expected to issue its recommendations this fall with
>>> >a vote of the 19-member school board expected in December. The
>>> >guidelines will become the basis for new state standardized tests.
>>
>>Slam-dunk.
>>Well done.
>>Ball's in your court IDers.
>>
>>robert
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
>discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
>in Heaven anyway

Which means God sucks.....

--

Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!

dave e

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 6:04:27 PM6/13/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com>...
>
> Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
> discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
> in Heaven anyway
>
> Clothaire#1392
>
> "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
> reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
> 'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
> imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
> 'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche

From Deuteronomy 26:13 NKJV
13"You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a
light.

Weight implies gravity. Otherwise GOD would have said "mass". Do you
not comprehend the word of GOD?

Sorry for this off-topic nitpicking, but if you're going to be a bible
literalist, you gotta take it all the way.

Dave


(Hey check out the passage just before Deuteronomy 25:13)
11 "If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to
rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts
out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, 12then you shall cut off
her hand; your eye shall not pity her.

dave e

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 6:04:25 PM6/13/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com>...
>
> Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
> discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
> in Heaven anyway
>
> Clothaire#1392
>
> "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
> reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
> 'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
> imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
> 'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche

From Deuteronomy 26:13 NKJV

dave e

unread,
Jun 13, 2002, 6:04:26 PM6/13/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com>...
>
> Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory. It is not
> discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that important
> in Heaven anyway
>
> Clothaire#1392
>
> "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
> reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
> 'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
> imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
> 'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche

From Deuteronomy 26:13 NKJV

Mike Henry

unread,
Jun 14, 2002, 12:07:08 AM6/14/02
to
This must be really important to post it 3 times.

"dave e" <dgen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10ffa4e4.0206...@posting.google.com...


> Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:<g45ggugj33j0dst5g...@4ax.com>...
> >
> > Despite Elf's eloquence, I still think that gravity is just a theory.
It is not
> > discussed in the Holy Bible; hence, I can't be sure. It won't be that
important
> > in Heaven anyway
> >
> > Clothaire#1392
> >
> > "In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
> > reality at any point. Nothing but imaginary causes ('God'', 'soul',
> > 'ego', 'spirit', 'free will' -- or 'unfree will'): nothing but
> > imaginary effects ('sin', 'redemption', 'grace', 'punishment',
> > 'forgiveness of sins')." -- Nietzsche
>
> From Deuteronomy 26:13 NKJV
> 13"You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a
> light.
>
> Weight implies gravity. Otherwise GOD would have said "mass". Do you
> not comprehend the word of GOD?
>
> Sorry for this off-topic nitpicking, but if you're going to be a bible
> literalist, you gotta take it all the way.
>
> Dave

As long as we're nitpicking, I don't think that God , if he exists ,was
speaking English.
--
-- Geo. Michael Henry
No! Bad dog! I said sit! anonymous

Clothaire

unread,
Jun 14, 2002, 1:37:25 AM6/14/02
to

I'm glad that God ruled that way. What if he had said, "Corta los cojones?"

Clothaire#1392

"So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he
was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with
flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the
man, and he brought her to the man."--The Holy Bible

Bill Rogers

unread,
Jun 14, 2002, 4:14:56 AM6/14/02
to
TomS <TomS_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<aeabi...@drn.newsguy.com>...

"And when you move your bowels, dig a pit and cover your waste. For
the Lord your God walks among the tents of the Israelites."

But you still underrate the creativity of fundamentalists, especially
those with weird scientific ideas. If they can come up with claims
that the weak nuclear force and general relativity are hidden in the
Bible, I'm sure that, say, a fundamentalist participant on t.o.
trained in microbiology could find the hidden references to
Leuconostoc and Prevotella in the Old Testament. Just give her a
little time.

Bill

TomS

unread,
Jun 14, 2002, 10:38:57 AM6/14/02
to
"On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:14:56 +0000 (UTC), in article
<8984713a.02061...@posting.google.com>, bro...@noguchi.mimcom.net
stated..."
[...snip...]

>"And when you move your bowels, dig a pit and cover your waste. For
>the Lord your God walks among the tents of the Israelites."

The Rev. Timothy Lovejoy: "Technically, we're not allowed to go
to the bathroom." (The Simpsons, Episode 1F20, "Secrets of a
Successful Marriage"))

>
>But you still underrate the creativity of fundamentalists, especially
>those with weird scientific ideas. If they can come up with claims
>that the weak nuclear force and general relativity are hidden in the
>Bible, I'm sure that, say, a fundamentalist participant on t.o.
>trained in microbiology could find the hidden references to
>Leuconostoc and Prevotella in the Old Testament. Just give her a
>little time.

I'm waiting. :-)

Tom S.

Elf Sternberg

unread,
Jun 15, 2002, 5:31:36 PM6/15/02
to
In article <3d068470....@netnews.attbi.com>
graham....@attbi.com (Graham Shevlin) writes:

>>>Although most in the science community support gravity, public
>>>opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe the Earth sucks

>>>or in intelligent grappling and want it included in classroom
>>>instruction.

>Er, perhaps I am getting too old...what is Intelligent Grappling? I
>have never heard of this concept...

The INTELLIGENT GRAPPLING FAQ.

1. What is Intelligent Grappling (IG?)

Intelligent Grappling is the SCIENTIFIC Theory that Intelligent
and Conscious Agents "push" things together. It is the only coherent
theory that explains why things fall.

2. Doesn't gravity explain why things fall?

NO. Gravity only attempts to describe what objects do. It does
not explain WHY they do them. It is that challenge that Intelligent
Grappling is intended to meet.

3. Aren't there theories that explain why things fall?

NO. There are theories by atheists and secular humanists that
TRY, but they all lead to crazy conclusions no human being has ever
seen, like black holes and the so-called "Big Bang". Intelligent
Grappling ONLY deals with the visible world.

4. Is Intelligent Grappling a scientific theory?

YES. Intelligent Grappling is the ONLY VIABLE THEORY fore why
things fall. Physicists have tried for a hundred years to explain why
things fall and THEY HAVE FAILED. It is time for a new theory, one
backed up by all the evidence, to finally solve the question. IG is
that theory.

5. Isn't "Intelligent Grappling" just another way of saying, "Angels
push things around?"

NO. Intelligent Grappling says nothing at all about the nature
or origins of the conscious agents that perform the actual act of
pushing and grappling. All IG says is that conscious agents are the
cause of all apparent "gravitic" phenomenon.

6. In order to accept Intelligent Design, must I accept Intelligent
Grappling as well?

YES. Intelligent Design says that there is a non-naturalistic,
conscious designer at work at the biological level. Intelligent
Grappling says that there is a non-naturalistic, conscious grappler at
the physicial level. Accepting a naturalistic explanation for one
phenomenon but a non-naturalistic explanation for another is a
philosophically corrupt position and we do not advocate it.

Elf

--
Elf M. Sternberg
Disproportionately Popular Among Homosexuals.
http://www.drizzle.com/~elf/ (under construction)

stoney

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 2:56:20 PM6/16/02
to
On Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:31:36 +0000 (UTC), e...@drizzle.com (Elf
Sternberg), Message ID: <1024176774.330268@yasure> wrote in
alt.atheism;

>In article <3d068470....@netnews.attbi.com>
> graham....@attbi.com (Graham Shevlin) writes:
>
>>>>Although most in the science community support gravity, public
>>>>opinion polls have shown that most Americans believe the Earth sucks
>>>>or in intelligent grappling and want it included in classroom
>>>>instruction.
>
>>Er, perhaps I am getting too old...what is Intelligent Grappling? I
>>have never heard of this concept...
>
>The INTELLIGENT GRAPPLING FAQ.

Elf, you might kick this to that Ohio reporter as an indication of
how vapid the ID bit is.

(snip)

catshark

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 7:01:33 PM6/16/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1024176774.330268@yasure>...

Along with the original post at:

http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&as_umsgid=%3C1023829363.315984@yasure%3E&lr=&hl=en

or:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L38453211

. . . I nominate this as a POTM!

---------------
J. Pieret
---------------

It is as respectable to be modified monkey as modified dirt.

-- Thomas Huxley --

John Wilkins

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 7:30:17 PM6/16/02
to
catshark <catsh...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You have to change the subject line, so I did - and seconded.


>
> ---------------
> J. Pieret
> ---------------
>
> It is as respectable to be modified monkey as modified dirt.
>
> -- Thomas Huxley --


--
John Wilkins
Occasionally entertaining others

Kirstin

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 7:52:37 PM6/16/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message

> The INTELLIGENT GRAPPLING FAQ.

<snip>

[wipes tear from eye]
sniff...
That was beautiful.
Simply....beautiful....

kirstinn

cats...@yahoo.com

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 7:58:13 PM6/16/02
to
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:30:17 +0000 (UTC), wil...@wehi.edu.au (John
Wilkins) wrote:

>catshark <catsh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message

Opps! Thanks.


---------------

J. Pieret
---------------

If nothing else, at least now I've
learned how to spell "blithering"!

jwk

unread,
Jun 16, 2002, 10:14:32 PM6/16/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1024176774.330268@yasure>...

Beautiful. Now if we can just get some Ohio school board to start
backing IG. Maybe then the people of Ohio would see how silly ID is.

Then again, probably not. <sigh>

jwk

Clothaire

unread,
Jun 18, 2002, 9:23:39 PM6/18/02
to

Do you really want IG in the school curricula, even though 57% of the American
population would support it?

Those idiots will do any thing to try to get their god into education.

Clothaire #1392

"It was a dark day when the Catholic Church hijacked education and replaced it
with dogma."

jwk

unread,
Jun 19, 2002, 10:11:26 AM6/19/02
to
Clothaire <Clot...@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<ovmvgucdpp65nqk1i...@4ax.com>...

Actually I was thinking that this parody (IG) might make some people
see how stupid ID is. I would like to keep all this garbage out of
schools.

jwk

Charlie Fields

unread,
Jun 19, 2002, 3:02:34 PM6/19/02
to
e...@drizzle.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote in message news:<1024176774.330268@yasure>...
>
> The INTELLIGENT GRAPPLING FAQ.
[snip]

> 3. Aren't there theories that explain why things fall?
>
> NO. There are theories by atheists and secular humanists that
> TRY, but they all lead to crazy conclusions no human being has ever
> seen, like black holes and the so-called "Big Bang". Intelligent
> Grappling ONLY deals with the visible world.
>

Man walks down the street late one night and sees second man on his
hands and knees searching for something. First man asks, "What are you
looking for?" Second man replies, "I dropped a ten-dollar bill." First
man stoops down and helps him look.

After a couple of minutes of fruitless searching, first man asks
second man, "Are you sure this is where you dropped it?"

Second man replies, "No, I dropped it on the next corner."

First man: "Then why are you looking for it here????"

Second man: "Because the lighting is better."

IG is the answer--because the lighting is better.

pluther

unread,
Jun 19, 2002, 4:48:11 PM6/19/02
to
jwkinr...@yahoo.com (jwk) wrote in message news:<c6f5ba32.0206...@posting.google.com>...

But what if it didn't work?

When I was in college, after reading the Illuminatus
trilogy for the first time, and discovering that
the university bookstore sold catnip, I wrote a letter
to the editor of the school newspaper bemoaning the
existence of catnip on campus. I explained that
students will give catnip to their cats, see them react,
and get the idea that drugs are a good idea. So, if
they have access to catnip they'll soon try marijuana
themselves, which of course will lead directly to heroin.

The school responded by banning catnip.

-Pat

--
Pat Luther -- pluther at usa dot net -- http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~pluther
There is no idea, no philosophy, so bizarre, so outrageous, so downright
inane, that someone somewhere on the internet won't be promoting it.

jwk

unread,
Jun 20, 2002, 2:53:40 PM6/20/02
to
plut...@my-deja.com (pluther) wrote in message news:<e78c9100.02061...@posting.google.com>...

Beautiful.

BTW I did say "Then again, probably not. <sigh>" originally.

jwk

leongsh

unread,
Jun 20, 2002, 9:11:19 PM6/20/02
to
kirst...@yahoo.com (Kirstin) wrote in message news:<642b37b7.02061...@posting.google.com>...
Couldn't agree more with kirstinn.

Has it been sent to the Ohio education authorities yet?

- leongsh..
a.a.#1860

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