India fears China
Me, again!
From "Financial Times" Nov 16, 2009, page 2
"Hands across the Himalayas seek prosperous age of 'Chindia'"
Quote starting with second paragraph:
"The two rising powers, however, may yet be clashing knights. For in New
Delhi it is fear of Beijing, rather than partnership, that all to
frequently characterises the trans-Himalayan relationship. While some size
up trade balances and growth trajectories, others are measuring missle
ranges and comparing military parades."
"Distrust of the bigger, faster-growing neighbour, which today sees the
start of President Barak Obama's first visit to the country, is giving
rise to some colourful tales. Stories circulate about China's toy
factories producing plastic globes that mark India's territories on the
Tibet plateau as Chinese. Google Earth, as viewed from China, apparently
claims a swath of territory for the Communist party. In daring raids,
People's Liberation Army soldiers nip across the border to daub boulders
in red paint."
"Amid the media-fuelled paranoia, few Indians have articulated Beijing's
supposed dark intentions with greater clarity than Delhi's former national
security advisor, Brajesh Mishra."
"Mr. Mishra advised Atul Behari Vajpayee, the former premier. His views,
albeit hawkish, are respected by the current Congress party-led
government and carry weight with the diplomatic community."
"So his recent forecast that India might face a second military front
within five yers turned heads. The former intelligence chief predicted
that India could find itself locked in an armed stand-off simultaneously
with Beijing and Pakistan, the traditional rival."
"China and India have once before come to blows. They fought a brief
high-altitude war in 1962 that brought humiliation to the Indian army and
ended Jawaharlal Nehru's vision of a brotherhood between the two Asian
powers."
"Mr. Mishra's suspicions of China have been newly aroused by Beijing's
warm relationship with Islamabad and its supply of military hardware to
Pakistan's army."
farther down..
"Tensions have certainly risen. Among the points of friction are India's
harbouring of the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan leader, and Beijings
unsuccesful efforts to scupper last year's Indo-US civil nuclear deal,
which ended India's status as a nuclear pariah. This year Beijing objected
to the Asian Development Bank's strategy for India, which included lending
money for projects in Arunachal Pradesh. New Delhi has also sparred with
Beijing over China's visa policy towards residents of Kashmir, which it
chooses to interpret as a challenge to its sovereignty."
Of course, otherwise, we have a number of Indians on these newsgroups who
prefer to regularly bash the USA, Americans, and "whites" in general
instead of look at their own realities.
Antonio Huerta
gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
(for example, by bidding up the price of resources which the Chinese
tried to keep low). The Indians, in their turn, pay to the Chinese by
contempt. So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
businesses, but not vise versa.
Old Pif
>
> From what I
> gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
> started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
>
That is exactly who they are.
>
>. So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
> businesses, but not vise versa.
>
Indians hire only Indians and only from the close casts from what I
observe.
Curiously, Indians being so called "democratic" are much further away
from the openness of the Western tradition than totalitarian Chinese.
Old Pif
>
> From "Financial Times" Nov 16, 2009, page 2
>
> "So his recent forecast that India might face a second military front
> within five yers turned heads. The former intelligence chief predicted
> that India could find itself locked in an armed stand-off simultaneously
> with Beijing and Pakistan, the traditional rival."
>
It is gonna be real tough for them. I don't know how they handle that
with their dysfunctional political system and all other problems.
But on the bright side, they had been conquered once by the Mongols.
So, now they have the second chance.
Me, again!
As it came out, also, in a few recent reports in the news, evidently there
is a fairly strong sentiment of anti-black in Chinese culture.
Then, China and Japan have some deep rooted anti-each other sentiments,
too.
And, I hear from Russians that they consider themselves "superior" to
Chinese.
Irish/English? Scottish/English? English/French?
There are a lot of schizms in the world.
Me, again!
Another history book on India I was reading says back 2,000+ years ago,
there were a lot of Chinese invaders into India (along with the "Aryan"
invaders from the west). What the hell, maybe there is no such thing as
"Indian" (they may all be descendants of invaders).
ind...@india.com
>Another history book on India I was reading says back 2,000+ years ago,=20
>there were a lot of Chinese invaders into India (along with the "Aryan"=20
>invaders from the west). What the hell, maybe there is no such thing as=20
>"Indian" (they may all be descendants of invaders).
Arthur Sowers (sower means pig in Hindi) must have written that book
because very few indians have chinese features (slint eyes, flat nose).
The only people to have that kind of features are in north east india
which anyhow china claims as its own.
Me, again!
All the more to suggest that NE India is descendant of successful Chinese
invaders.
Of course, India is at least 3,000+ years of messy history: Indians in
India killed their own kind in large numbers, wars, theiving, enslavement
(child slave labor exists today in the rug factories), sati, female
infanticide, dalit-untouchables (3,000 years of caste discrimination).
The Indian "Thugees" (ritual murder) were estimated to have killed at
least 3,000,000 Indians in history, close to the same number of American
Indians that _Indians_ keep blaming on Europeans that came to "the new
lands"....
Indians are so good at trying to dig up dirt on people they just don't
want to like or tollerate or get along with.
All along, they are asleep while China becomes a real world power!
Me, again!
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 ind...@india.com wrote:
Yeah, north east India is pretty close to China, too.
> which anyhow china claims as its own.
Obviously China seems to know something about where its people are.
Probably China would love to eat India for lunch someday.
Hey "ind...@india.com" don't you think you'd better look out for China
instead of "Me"?
kamal
> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 ind...@india.com wrote:
>
>
> >> Another history book on India I was reading says back 2,000+ years ago,=20
> >> there were a lot of Chinese invaders into India (along with the "Aryan"=20
> >> invaders from the west). What the hell, maybe there is no such thing as=20
Your history books are inaccurate.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/7/28
http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html
> >> "Indian" (they may all be descendants of invaders).
>
All human beings originated in the african bush, and so had to come
from somewhere else to where they are currently (coz we are not part
of africa for sure). Some came as invaders, some as settlers
(agriculturists) and some as traders. Check this for more info:-
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html
> > Arthur Sowers (sower means pig in Hindi) must have written that book
> > because very few indians have chinese features (slint eyes, flat nose).
> > The only people to have that kind of features are in north east india
>
> Yeah, north east India is pretty close to China, too.
>
Nation formation is something that came into being in the past 200+
yrs. There was no country named India or china before that. It was
just a landmass with a collection of kingdoms jostling with one
another. The people in N.E India have mongoloid features -true, but
there are different strains of mongoloid people (eg:- tibeto-burman,
han chinese, <not sure of the rest>). There are some other countries
bordering N.E India besides china, so its not always next to the
chinese border.
regards
-kamal
kamal
> On Nov 20, 9:16 am, Antonio Huerta <ahue...@inbox.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From what I
> > gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
> > started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
>
> That is exactly who they are.
>
>
>
> >. So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
> > businesses, but not vise versa.
>
> Indians hire only Indians and only from the close casts from what I
> observe.
>
Your observation is incorrect. Here in India, there are lots of people
from various religious groups/castes with whom I interact in office.
One of India's largest companies , Wipro is owned by a muslim and he
has lots of (upper-caste)hindus working for him -and probably very few
muslims. The company would end up running into losses if it hired
people for who they were -instead of what services they provide. Just
to let you know, there are lots of americans working in bangalore -
reporting to their Indian manager.
> Curiously, Indians being so called "democratic" are much further away
> from the openness of the Western tradition than totalitarian Chinese.
western tradition is not a benchmark for all good things in life. If
you think so -thats just your idea.
regards
-kamal
kamal
> On Nov 19, 8:07 pm, "Me, again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From "Financial Times" Nov 16, 2009, page 2
>
> > "So his recent forecast that India might face a second military front
> > within five yers turned heads. The former intelligence chief predicted
> > that India could find itself locked in an armed stand-off simultaneously
> > with Beijing and Pakistan, the traditional rival."
>
> It is gonna be real tough for them. I don't know how they handle that
> with their dysfunctional political system and all other problems.
>
> But on the bright side, they had been conquered once by the Mongols.
No -they haven't. They just invaded -but couldn't keep the land under
control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India
We don;'t have much in common with mongoloid people because the land
was never under their control.
regards
-kamal
Me, again!
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Nov 23, 3:30 am, "Me, again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 ind...@india.com wrote:
>>
>>> In article <Pine.BSF.4.61.0911201705210.22...@osmium.mv.net>, Me, again! says...
>>
>>>> Another history book on India I was reading says back 2,000+ years ago,=20
>>>> there were a lot of Chinese invaders into India (along with the "Aryan"=20
>>>> invaders from the west). What the hell, maybe there is no such thing as=20
>
> Your history books are inaccurate.
> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/7/28
> http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html
Nah, here is some Indian history:
Lets look at this question: In India's history, how many Indians (in
India) were killed (in India) by other Indians (born and living in
India)? And, what kind of morals and ethics were known to exist in India.
Here are quotes from one scholarly book on Indian history: "The Wonder
That Was India" by A.L. Basham, BA, PhD., F.R.A.S., a reader in the
history of India in the University of London (568 pp., 25 pages of index,
20 pages of references, c 1954, more than 200 half-tones, sixteenth
printing, Grove Press)
Page 115: Crime
"Some of these unfortunate and uprooted people people provided
the submerged tenth of habitual criminals which seems to ahve
existed in all ancient Indian cities. In order to suppress crime
the Arthasastra advises the imposition of a stringent curfew from
about two and a half hours after sunset to the same time before
dawn. Later sources speak of castes of professional thieves who
had developed stealing to a fine art, and who made use of written
manuals on their profession." "Crime was equally rampant in the
countryside, where the existence of large robber bands is
attested from the time of Buddha onwards. Hsuan Tsang gives the
earliest account of hereditary bandits who robbed their victims
and murdered them as a religious duty, like the later
thugs...Thus ancient India was faced with a very serious crime
problem..."
Page 116: Administration of Justice
"A Jataka story tells of a bench of five magistrates, all of
whom, incidentally, are corrupt...."
"...the evidence of low-caste people was not valid against
persons...
(p. 117)
... of higher caste." "Where the accused was open to grave
suspicion not amounting to certainty he might be tortured to
elicit confession."
"Another means of ascertaining guilt was the ordeal...and in
certain forms is still sometimes resorted to in India to settle
disputes out of court." "Several Ordeals are mentioned, however,
including ordeals by fire and immersion [in water] similar to
those known in medieval Europe...."
(p. 118)
"The early Sutras laid down fines for the punishment of murder--
1,000 cows for killing a ksatriya, 100 for a vaisya, and 10 for a
sudra or a woman of any class; the killing of a brahman could not
be expiated by a fine."
"Mutilation and torture were common penalties for many
crimes...."
Page 119 describes mutilations, capital punishments, long
imprisonments where prisoners were left to rot and thus add up to
no better than that which can be found in any other society.
Page 120 lists more fines but for slander, all related to caste
priviledge. Also, "In the later Vedic period some brahmans
claimed to be above the law altogether." "According to most
orthodox sources the brahmans were exempt from execution,
torture, and corporal punishment...."
Page 121: The Secret Service
"Perhaps the least pleasant feature of political life in ancient
India was the espionage system. The most detailed picture of the
working of this secret service is given in the Arthasastra, the
author of which devotes two chapters to its organization.... The
text visualizes a country riddled from top to bottom with secret
agents or spies."
Page 122: Hindu Militarism
"A few enlightened people recognized the evil effects of the
warfare which afflicted the Indian sub-continent during most of
its history, but...
Page 123
....their message was generally unheard. Asoka was possibly the
only ancient Indian king who finally broke with the tradition of
aggression, though his spirit can perhaps be heard in certain
passages in Buddhist texts... Nevertheless, positive
condemnations of war are rare in Indian literature."
"In any case war was generally accepted as a normal activity of
the state, even by Buddhist kings. The doctrine of non-violence,
which in medieval India had become very influential, was never at
this time taken to forbid war or capital punishment."
"The intense militarism of ancient India...."
Page 124:
"'Demoniac conquest' still took place from time to time, notably
under the Guptas, but 'righteous conquest' was the ideal which
Hindu kings were expected to follow, and it is evident that they
usually did. War became the sport of kings--a sport which was
often very profitable and always very serious..."
Page 126:
"...culminated in the jauhar, the final holocaust which was the
fate of many a medieval Rajput king, with his family and body-
guard, the women and children burning alive in the inner chambers
of the fort while the men fought to the last on the battlements."
Page 127:
"...inter-state relations were of the most macchiavellian
character." "The working of this principle can be seen throughout
the history of Hindu India in the temporary alliances of two
kingdoms to accomplish the encirclement and destruction of the
kingdoms between them."
Page 129:
"Conditions in Hindu India were not unlike those in medieval
Europe...resulting in perpetual warfare. In Europe, however, the
well-organized and centralized Roman Church often acted as a
pacifying element in the situation; in India Hinduism, which had
no all-embracing super-national organization, rather encouraged
inter-state anarchy by incorporating many martial traditions into
the Sacred Law."
The next nearly dozen pages makes reference to many details of
Indian armies in ancient times, names sources, shows photographs
of Indian plaques and reliefs thousands of years old. Indian
armies were up to 200,000 in number of soldiers, thousands of
elephants, and thousands of chariots.
If you look at the reference-sources list at the end of the book, you will
see most references are to scholarly journals from India, translations of
old and ancient writings in India, and other Indian sources, from India
itself, often authored by people with Indian names.
Me, again!
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:49 pm, Old Pif <old...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 20, 9:16 am, Antonio Huerta <ahue...@inbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From what I
>>> gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
>>> started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
>>
>> That is exactly who they are.
>>
> let them be -whats your problem?
>
>>
>>
>>> . So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
>>> businesses, but not vise versa.
>>
>> Indians hire only Indians and only from the close casts from what I
>> observe.
>>
>
> Your observation is incorrect.
Nah, I see it too. Indians in US businesses (we have a lot of convenience
stores, gas stations, liquor stores, and doughnut shops) where if there is
an Indian boss, then all of the help is Indian.
Also, it is easier to get kickback to an Indian boss if the help is
Indian. Maybe the help pays a bribe to get the job, too.
Here in India, there are lots of people
> from various religious groups/castes with whom I interact in office.
> One of India's largest companies , Wipro is owned by a muslim and he
> has lots of (upper-caste)hindus working for him -and probably very few
> muslims. The company would end up running into losses if it hired
> people for who they were -instead of what services they provide. Just
> to let you know, there are lots of americans working in bangalore -
> reporting to their Indian manager.
I'll bet less than one percent. The rest are Indians.
Me, again!
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:56 pm, Old Pif <old...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 8:07 pm, "Me, again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From "Financial Times" Nov 16, 2009, page 2
>>
>>> "So his recent forecast that India might face a second military front
>>> within five yers turned heads. The former intelligence chief predicted
>>> that India could find itself locked in an armed stand-off simultaneously
>>> with Beijing and Pakistan, the traditional rival."
>>
>> It is gonna be real tough for them. I don't know how they handle that
>> with their dysfunctional political system and all other problems.
>>
> Political system in India is as dysfunctional as in the US.
At least twice as dysfunctional since there are at least four major
parties.
>> But on the bright side, they had been conquered once by the Mongols.
>
> No -they haven't. They just invaded -but couldn't keep the land under
> control.
If you listen to the Mongols, its a different story.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India
>
> We don;'t have much in common with mongoloid people because the land
> was never under their control.
China beat the shit out of India in 1962.
kamal
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
> > On Nov 20, 7:49 pm, Old Pif <old...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 20, 9:16 am, Antonio Huerta <ahue...@inbox.com> wrote:
>
> >>> From what I
> >>> gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
> >>> started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
>
> >> That is exactly who they are.
>
> > let them be -whats your problem?
>
> >>> . So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
> >>> businesses, but not vise versa.
>
> >> Indians hire only Indians and only from the close casts from what I
> >> observe.
>
> > Your observation is incorrect.
>
> Nah, I see it too. Indians in US businesses (we have a lot of convenience
> stores, gas stations, liquor stores, and doughnut shops) where if there is
> an Indian boss, then all of the help is Indian.
>
My ex-employer in US had lots of people from various countries working
on an H1b visa. Some from USSR, a few from China and most of them from
India. They had some US citizens too, as receptionists/clerical staff.
> Also, it is easier to get kickback to an Indian boss if the help is
> Indian. Maybe the help pays a bribe to get the job, too.
>
not exactly. They represent the underclass in the US, and have v few
options to work for large corporations. Likewise, with a shoestring
budget -the Indian employer can only afford to hire cheapest possible
workers -which excludes the mainstream white americans or ones with a
green card/citizenship.
> Here in India, there are lots of people
>
> > from various religious groups/castes with whom I interact in office.
> > One of India's largest companies , Wipro is owned by a muslim and he
> > has lots of (upper-caste)hindus working for him -and probably very few
> > muslims. The company would end up running into losses if it hired
> > people for who they were -instead of what services they provide. Just
> > to let you know, there are lots of americans working in bangalore -
> > reporting to their Indian manager.
>
> I'll bet less than one percent. The rest are Indians.
>
yep -and this huge given that they are coming to a heavily populated
3rd world country from a prosperous first country,
regards
-kamal
Me, again!
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
> On Nov 23, 7:38 pm, "Me, again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, kamal wrote:
>>> On Nov 20, 7:49 pm, Old Pif <old...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Nov 20, 9:16 am, Antonio Huerta <ahue...@inbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> From what I
>>>>> gathered, the Chinese regard the Indians as none-too-clever people who
>>>>> started to arrive in large numbers and spoil the business conditions
>>
>>>> That is exactly who they are.
>>
>>> let them be -whats your problem?
>>
>>>>> . So far, Chinese hire Indians for the work in small
>>>>> businesses, but not vise versa.
>>
>>>> Indians hire only Indians and only from the close casts from what I
>>>> observe.
>>
>>> Your observation is incorrect.
>>
>> Nah, I see it too. Indians in US businesses (we have a lot of convenience
>> stores, gas stations, liquor stores, and doughnut shops) where if there is
>> an Indian boss, then all of the help is Indian.
>>
>
> My ex-employer in US had lots of people from various countries working
> on an H1b visa. Some from USSR, a few from China and most of them from
> India. They had some US citizens too, as receptionists/clerical staff.
Maybe in IT businesses, not in commercial businesses. Indian boss, and
under him nothing but Indians and his own family helping him.
Same in Chinese businesses, even computers and IT. I've been in computer
stores all Chinese, as well as computer stores that were all Indian.
Big self prejudice.
>> Also, it is easier to get kickback to an Indian boss if the help is
>> Indian. Maybe the help pays a bribe to get the job, too.
>>
> not exactly. They represent the underclass in the US, and have v few
> options to work for large corporations. Likewise, with a shoestring
> budget -the Indian employer can only afford to hire cheapest possible
> workers -which excludes the mainstream white americans or ones with a
> green card/citizenship.
And, I've even heard stories, from Indians as well as about Chinese.
Kickbacks and bribes to get jobs.
>
>> Here in India, there are lots of people
>>
>>> from various religious groups/castes with whom I interact in office.
>>> One of India's largest companies , Wipro is owned by a muslim and he
>>> has lots of (upper-caste)hindus working for him -and probably very few
>>> muslims. The company would end up running into losses if it hired
>>> people for who they were -instead of what services they provide. Just
>>> to let you know, there are lots of americans working in bangalore -
>>> reporting to their Indian manager.
>>
>> I'll bet less than one percent. The rest are Indians.
>>
> yep -and this huge given that they are coming to a heavily populated
> 3rd world country from a prosperous first country,
And all because India cheats on its exchange rates, just like China, and
all of SE Asia, etc.
> regards
> -kamal
>