The Management Myth
Me
Book review from WSJ, Aug 5, 2009
title of book:"The Management Myth"
author: Matthew Stewart
Title of the book review: "Bogus Theories, Bad for Business"
Author of the book review: Philip Delves Broughton
Quote:
"[Matthew Stewart's] ...advice to to anyone considering an MBA was 'don't
go to business school, study philosophy.' The secrets of business, he
said, were to be found in history, literature and the classic ruminations
on life and existence, not in the half-baked ramblings of business
academics, consultants and 'gurus'."
farther down:
"The business world, according to Mr. Stewart, has become so obsessed with
its own perverse value system and view of human nature that is is
undermining the 'commons' of society."
The rest of the book review has additional comments of a similar quality.
Or, maybe we need a contemporary author to write a new, relevant version
of either George Orwell's "1984" or Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"?
Oh...shit...we're already living in a dystopia!!!
Its called "globalized" earth!!!
Old Pif
Good. Common sense is still alive.
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
of
comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
however the feed stock
will be weak ss hell, having not been taught logic, algebra or history
in high school.
phil scott
nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
theory based on
a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life. One of my
clients, is not educated
but his construction business prospers as others around here went trom
700 staff to zero.
I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
sense..he beats the pants
off of his competition.
Phil scott
BMJ
It is solely dependent upon display of symbols, adherence to ritual, and
participation in ceremony. Pursuit of tangible objectives is seen as
detrimental. It was that way over thirty years ago when I was fresh out of
university with a brand new B. Sc. and it hasn't changed for the better
since then.
Me
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, morris croy wrote:
> Not much different than "Beavis and Butthead" running the world.
>
I prefer Dilbert
Me
What is wrong with "old-fashioned" common sense? Besides the fact that
it's getting harder to find these days?
rick++
But many people feel they have to read new books.
BMJ
> Business books are like diet books - not much new under the sun.
> But many people feel they have to read new books.
>
And, worse yet, follow every new fad and sneak every new buzzword into
their conversation. Many do that to impress people with the hopes that
their superiors will notice and grant them promotions.
Demon Buddha
>
> Book review from WSJ, Aug 5, 2009
>
> title of book:"The Management Myth"
> author: Matthew Stewart
>
> Title of the book review: "Bogus Theories, Bad for Business"
> Author of the book review: Philip Delves Broughton
>
> Quote:
>
> "[Matthew Stewart's] ...advice to to anyone considering an MBA was
> 'don't go to business school, study philosophy.' The secrets of
> business, he said, were to be found in history, literature and the
> classic ruminations on life and existence, not in the half-baked
> ramblings of business academics, consultants and 'gurus'."
I disagree. The advice of studying philosophy is well taken, but the
study of business is a worthwhile pursuit as well. I fully agree that
the notions of the academics have perhaps more than their share of
problems, but studying this system is, IMO, very valuable from several
standpoints. You just have to take some of what you are taught with a
questioning attitude. Free enterprise in the form of free markets may
not be perfect but it is the best we have right now. Studies such as
those for the MBA allow the astute student to compare what is taught
with what is practiced and that simple activity can prove most enlightening.
>
> farther down:
>
> "The business world, according to Mr. Stewart, has become so obsessed
> with its own perverse value system and view of human nature that is is
> undermining the 'commons' of society."
This I firmly agree with. Not everything "common" is communistic,
socialistic, authoritarian, fascistic, or totalitarian. They key to a
proper... erm... "management" of the so-called "commons" is proper
understanding and a minimalist approach that doesn't go so far minimal
that it finds itself floating in the midst of the Simplistic Sea.
Contrariwise, over-controlling results in equal or greater perdition,
IMO. So many people appear to have forgotten that thing called the
middle path.
>
> The rest of the book review has additional comments of a similar quality.
>
> Or, maybe we need a contemporary author to write a new, relevant version
> of either George Orwell's "1984" or Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"?
Shit, I could knock that out in one night's writing.
> Oh...shit...we're already living in a dystopia!!!
>
> Its called "globalized" earth!!!
Sounds purty, but damn is that girl homely.
Demon Buddha
> as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
> of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
die. By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages. When I was
teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
things like meat came from. They would answer with the sincere offer of
"the store" or some equivalent. That was 84-86. The ignorance has
gotten significantly worse since those days. For many, common sense is
simply out of their reach in the time frames we could be considering.
People who not only have never known hunger but also never learned how
to do anything real (being some top dog video game jockey doesn't count,
nor does skill in rapping) and are not in the habit of doing for
themselves are going to be in for a very hard time if and when the
bottom really comes out of this thing.
>
> however the feed stock
> will be weak ss hell, having not been taught logic, algebra or history
> in high school.
How about how to raise food? Carpentry? Blacksmithing? Marksmanship?
Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
time. When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
something to offer those who can take care of themselves. Better yet
that they themselves learn those same basics. But no, that's all pass�.
Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.
Old Pif
> Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.
If the population growth continue as it is now, our Eco-system
collapses. We are already approaching the limits. In India the
government officials advice people to eat rats
http://current.com/items/89204205_indias-poor-urged-to-eat-rats.htm .
But they still have them. In Africa at some places they have already
eaten everything and anything.
We have passed the era of unlimited expansion, Endless Horizons and
limitless opportunities. It is all behind us. Our future if our Lord
endows us with the common sense is in balance and self-limitation.
Demon Buddha
> nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
> theory based on
> a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories? I am curious
what they may be and why you think that way about them. When I did my
MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.
One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get from
the media too much to heart. Most business managers I have known and
worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are
very ethical, honest, smart, and capable people. The media sell misery
and drama. That is what gets the ad dollars. Typical news, IMO,
represents a highly concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture
of realities such as the general demeanor of businessmen. How often do
they do stories on those who run their companies efficiently while
providing value to customers and good environments for employees? Not
that often, and one must also consider the common cognitive "habit", as
it were, of people to rapidly forget good news while retaining the bad.
All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly gray stone wherein
the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty. As this applies to business,
it is generally very misleading.
To be sure, there are bad actors out there. It also appears to me that
it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in
seconds whereas erecting it may have taken years. Entropy is a most
interesting phenomenon.
> One of my clients, is not educated
> but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
> 700 staff to zero.
But this does not impeach a formal business education. Just prior to
graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight
about what our training represented. He was quick to point out that the
only thing it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a
brotherhood of sorts and that we possessed certain knowledge that most
others do not - and that was it. It didn't make us smarter than anyone
else - it didn't entitle us to anything special. It only alerts hiring
managers of things we should know. It is a foot in a door. The rest is
up to us - we must prove ourselves through action just as anyone else
must. I think that was a pretty good way of presenting reality to the
class.
I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate
ability, experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where
others may have failed.
>
> I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
> sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.
I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
of millions of someone else's money. That is a lot of responsibility.
My management style has always worked well for me and those around me,
and there is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get:
treat people well and they will march into the gates of hell for you
without you even having to ask. I have always measured my success in
terms of the success of those around me. If my team succeeds, it means
I did my job well. If they fail, chances are that it is my fault.
There is much about management and leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue
about. It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
practicing it - or unwilling. We could write books on this, and many
have. One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule. Always ask
yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
or that. Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".
Demon Buddha
> Business books are like diet books - not much new under the sun.
> But many people feel they have to read new books.
>
Similar to going to movies. There are about 5 unique stories that have
ever been told. All movies are variations on those five, yet people
keep going. We like a good story. :)
Me
And, non-renewable resources still being depleted at lightspeed, pollution
and contamination expanding at lightspeed, garbage dumps expanding in
greater proportion to expansion in population, political polarization
getting worse with every year (viz. terrorism, hacking, white collar
crime, etc.)
Me
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Demon Buddha wrote:
> phil scott wrote:
>
>> nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
>> theory based on
>> a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
>
> Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?
I alread gave quotes of a book review of a book that recommended against
the MBA pathway. That is one example.
I could list many more examples of the "MBA culture" by listing additional
books where the "business culture" (prepared for by the MBA) is as much or
more of a threat to life than a lifestyle less dependent on intense
business.
Out of many economics and business books that I have read in the last 5-10
years, there are two categories of emphasis when profit is a motive: i) an
emphasis that includes a notion that the good should be distributed among
the greatest number (manifesting itself, at least, as maximum possible
employment), and ii) nobody gives a damn if greater proportions of
underlings are living in poverty conditions. One author who has addressed
this angle is Barbara Ehrenreich with many books (eg. "Nickel and Dimed",
etc).
I am curious
> what they may be and why you think that way about them. When I did my MBA
> the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my experience-based
> knowledge from 25 years of being in business.
You did not pay any attention to the contrarian viewpoints expressed by
the dissenters and their books are out there, too.
> One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get
> from the media too much to heart. Most business managers I have known and
> worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are very
> ethical, honest, smart, and capable people.
Maybe you can save this, below, for future reference someday, and someday
revise your thinking:
----------------------
I quote a quote appearing in the book "Criminology" 3rd edition, 1989, by
Larry J. Siegel, page 312:
"The financial cost of white-collar crime is probably several times as great
as the financial cost of all the crimes which are customarily regarded as
the 'crime problem.' The financial loss from white-collar crime, great as it
is, is less important than the damage to social relations. White-collar
crimes violate trust and therefore create distrust, which lowers social
morale and produces disorganization on a large scale. Other crimes produce
relatively little effect on social instutions or social organization"
[reference: Edwin Sutherland, "White- Collar Criminality" _American
Sociological Reviews_, 5(1040):2-10.)
The paragraph which introduces the above quote contains the following
sentences:
"..., distinguished criminologist Edwin Sutherland first used the phrase
'white-collar crime' to describe the criminal activities of the rich and
powerful." and "As Southerland saw it, white-collar crimes involved
conspiracies by members of the wealthy classes to use their position in
commerce and industry for personal gain without regard to law. All too often
these actions were handled by civil courts, since injured parties were more
concerned with getting back their losses than with seeing the offenders
punished."
Dozens of pages in a whole section of this book are devoted to the crimes by
the rich and powerful and cite many references to articles, books, and
professional as well as academic journal papers. From the same book, page 51
shows a table of crime rates and for the year 1987, about 5 out of 100
people are victims of some crime and less than one violent (murder,
manslaughter, assault, rape) per 100 people. Page 510 gives the US prison
population as about 600,000 (I'm sure it is much higher today) or surely
less than one percent of the adult population of that date. Recently I cited
a report where out of 8,000 companies, 2,000 (25%) were estimated to be
involved in stock option grant fraud. While the comparison of crime amongst
the general public (in terms of victims) with crime in an executive
subpopulation (in terms of misappropriation of personal gain) may be subject
to questioning and criticism, the overall picture fits fairly well
Sutherland's claim that the financial cost of white-collar is higher than
the financial costs of all other crime.
Quotes from a second book, "Occupational Crime" by Gary S. Green (1991
reprint, 299 pages including about 350-400 refernces to articles, books, and
journal papers) include the following on page 181:
"Crimes By Doctors Against Persons: Unnecessary Surgery and Treatment-
Willfully committing unnecessary surgery is both a crime against property
(fraud) and a crime against the person (assault, mayhem, or criminal
homicide)(see Lanza-Kaduce, 1980; Stroman, 1979). Upon reexamining 1,356
patients recommended to undergo major surgery, researchers at Cornell
Medical School found that one in four of the operations was not needed
(Berger, 1988:43). Given these figures, of the approximately 35 million
surgical operations performed in the USA in 1985, as many as 4 million [this
does not match the 'one in four' estimate] may have been unwarranted. In
terms of the particular body parts subject to high amounts of unnecessary
maiming, 36 percent of eye surgeries, half of all pacemaker implants, 31
percent of gall bladder removals, a third of hysterectomies, and 32 percent
of prostate surgeries, 43 percent of hemorrhoid operations, and 32 percent
of knee surgeries have been estimated to be unwarranted. ... In terms of
public outcry, Cullen, etal., [1985]..report that, among those they
surveyed, about two persons in five...favored a prison term for a physician
who performs an unnecessary operaion."
and on page 196 may be found this passage:
"The Legal Profession-Lawyers, as professionals, also have abundant
opportunities to commit crime in the course of their occupation. Offenses
can be committed by attorneys for their own benefit (e.g. overbilling
clients for time, embezzelment of funds entrusted to them)...." And, the
whole section of the book dealing with all of this goes on to cite numerous
examples all with references to sources.
(It shoud be noted that both the medical profession and the legal profession
have state boards of licensing and peer committees all set up with processes
for handling complaints (just as many corporations include mandatory
arbitration processes in their contracts with public subscribers) and the
courts recognize these entities and procedures as taking precidence over the
normal legal/litigation system and thus can delay, dillute, or divert
justice from beeing meeted out to a perpetrator.
The wording of arbitration clauses in contracts may actually bind a
plaintiff with standing from any subsequent recourse in any court of law.
Thus, those who perform services-for-fees enjoy an additional layer of
protection for themselves. Buyer beware.).
=========================
> The media sell misery and drama.
They are run by the same MBA- and business-culture that you have been
bragging about all along as being such nice guys.
> That is what gets the ad dollars. Typical news, IMO, represents a highly
> concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture of realities such as the
> general demeanor of businessmen. How often do they do stories on those who
> run their companies efficiently while providing value to customers and good
> environments for employees? Not that often,
You would have to go to the trade periodicals for more of that. However,
even the WSJ and Financial Times (among many) give decent accounts of
successful businesses. I've been reading WSJ continuously since 1982.
And, by the way, I, myself, was incorporated for 12 years until I recently
retired, with net profits every year.
and one must also consider the
> common cognitive "habit", as it were, of people to rapidly forget good news
> while retaining the bad. All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly
> gray stone wherein the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty. As this applies
> to business, it is generally very misleading.
In the last ten years, in my retirement, I have read over 200 books
generally on history, business, and economic history. I can assure you
that robber-barron behavior of all kinds has been a part of human culture
and dominated by the rich/powerful subpopulation in almost all written
history that goes into any detail going back for hundreds to thousands of
years.
You may not be aware of it, but even a large fraction of wars at all and
any times in the past, often had an economic basis. And, thus, we have
large numbers of underlings giving their blood and life, and suffering
pain and loss, all for the glorification and economic gains of a few
overlings.
> To be sure, there are bad actors out there. It also appears to me
> that it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
> few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in seconds
> whereas erecting it may have taken years.
Unfair trade practices (see references above to the criminology due to
white collar crime) have done hundreds of times more damage in dollar
value than those explosive charges.
Not to mention corporations that pay no income tax by means of tax
cheating (eg. "Perfectly Legal" by David Cay Johnston).
Corporate law (eg. many books written recently, by lawyers, whereby law
has been corrupted in the interests of expanding corporate power.)
Entropy is a most interesting
> phenomenon.
Animal aggression (read Konrad Lorentz, for one, but many others, too) and
animal teritoriality (eg. Robert Ardrey) are more relevant phenomena.
>> One of my clients, is not educated
>> but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
>> 700 staff to zero.
>
> But this does not impeach a formal business education.
You would do well to read the following.....
============================
Twenty Things You Should Know About Corporate Crime
By Russell Mokhiber, AlterNet
Posted on June 16, 2007, Printed on June 18, 2007
http://www.alternet.org/story/54093/
The following is text from a speech delivered by Russell Mokhiber,
editor of Corporate Crime Reporter to the Taming the Giant Corporation
conference in Washington, D.C., June 9, 2007.
20. Corporate crime inflicts far more damage on society than all
street crime combined.
Whether in bodies or injuries or dollars lost, corporate crime and
violence wins by a landslide.
The FBI estimates, for example, that burglary and robbery -- street
crimes -- costs the nation $3.8 billion a year.
The losses from a handful of major corporate frauds -- Tyco, Adelphia,
Worldcom, Enron -- swamp the losses from all street robberies and
burglaries combined.
Health care fraud alone costs Americans $100 billion to $400 billion a
year.
The savings and loan fraud -- which former Attorney General Dick
Thornburgh called "the biggest white collar swindle in history" --
cost us anywhere from $300 billion to $500 billion.
And then you have your lesser frauds: auto repair fraud, $40 billion a
year, securities fraud, $15 billion a year -- and on down the list.
19. Corporate crime is often violent crime.
Recite this list of corporate frauds and people will immediately say
to you: but you can't compare street crime and corporate crime --
corporate crime is not violent crime.
Not true.
Corporate crime is often violent crime.
The FBI estimates that, 16,000 Americans are murdered every year.ŚCompare this to the 56,000 Americans who die every year on the job or
from occupational diseases such as black lung and asbestosis and the
tens of thousands of other Americans who fall victim to the silent
violence of pollution, contaminated foods, hazardous consumer
products, and hospital malpractice.
These deaths are often the result of criminal recklessness. Yet, they
are rarely prosecuted as homicides or as criminal violations of
federal laws.
18. Corporate criminals are the only criminal class in the United
States that have the power to define the laws under which they live.
The mafia, no.
The gangstas, no.
The street thugs, no.
But the corporate criminal lobby, yes. They have marinated Washington
-- from the White House to the Congress to K Street -- with their
largesse. And out the other end come the laws they can live with. They
still violate their own rules with impunity. But they make sure the
laws are kept within reasonable bounds.
Exhibit A -- the automobile industry.
Over the past 30 years, the industry has worked its will on Congress
to block legislation that would impose criminal sanctions on knowing
and willful violations of the federal auto safety laws. Today, with
very narrow exceptions, if an auto company is caught violating the
law, only a civil fine is imposed.
17. Corporate crime is underprosecuted by a factor of say -- 100. And
the flip side of that -- corporate crime prosecutors are underfunded
by a factor of say -- 100.
Big companies that are criminally prosecuted represent only the tip of
a very large iceberg of corporate wrongdoing.
For every company convicted of health care fraud, there are hundreds
of others who get away with ripping off Medicare and Medicaid, or face
only mild slap-on-the-wrist fines and civil penalties when caught.
For every company convicted of polluting the nation's waterways, thereŚare many others who are not prosecuted because their corporate defense
lawyers are able to offer up a low-level employee to go to jail in
exchange for a promise from prosecutors not to touch the company or
high-level executives.
For every corporation convicted of bribery or of giving money directly
to a public official in violation of federal law, there are thousands
who give money legally through political action committees to
candidates and political parties. They profit from a system that
effectively has legalized bribery.
For every corporation convicted of selling illegal pesticides, there
are hundreds more who are not prosecuted because their lobbyists have
worked their way in Washington to ensure that dangerous pesticides
remain legal.
For every corporation convicted of reckless homicide in the death of a
worker, there are hundreds of others that don't even get investigated
for reckless homicide when a worker is killed on the job. Only a few
district attorneys across the country have historically investigated
workplace deaths as homicides.
White collar crime defense attorneys regularly admit that if more
prosecutors had more resources, the number of corporate crime
prosecutions would increase dramatically. A large number of serious
corporate and white collar crime cases are now left on the table for
lack of resources.
16. Beware of consumer groups or other public interest groups who make
nice with corporations.
There are now probably more fake public interest groups than actual
ones in America today. And many formerly legitimate public interest
groups have been taken over or compromised by big corporations. Our
favorite example is the National Consumer League. It's the oldest
consumer group in the country. It was created to eradicate child
labor.
But in the last ten years or so, it has been taken over by large
corporations. It now gets the majority of its budget from big
corporations such as Pfizer, Bank of America, Pharmacia & Upjohn,
Kaiser Permanente, Wyeth-Ayerst, and Verizon.
15. It used to be when a corporation committed a crime, they pled
guilty to a crime.ŚSo, for example, so many large corporations were pleading guilty to
crimes in the 1990s, that in 2000, we put out a report titled The Top
100 Corporate Criminals of the 1990s. We went back through all of the
Corporate Crime Reporters for that decade, pulled out all of the big
corporations that had been convicted, ranked the corporate criminals
by the amount of their criminal fines, and cut it off at 100.
So, you have your Fortune 500, your Forbes 400, and your Corporate
Crime Reporter 100.
14. Now, corporate criminals don't have to worry about pleading guilty
to crimes.
Three new loopholes have developed over the past five years -- the
deferred prosecution agreement, the non prosecution agreement, and
pleading guilty a closet entity or a defunct entity that has nothing
to lose.
13. Corporations love deferred prosecution agreements.
In the 1990s, if prosecutors had evidence of a crime, they would bring
a criminal charge against the corporation and sometimes against the
individual executives. And the company would end up pleading guilty.
Then, about three years ago, the Justice Department said -- hey, there
is this thing called a deferred prosecution agreement.
We can bring a criminal charge against the company. And we will tell
the company -- if you are a good company and do not violate the law
for the next two years, we will drop the charges. No harm, no foul.
This is called a deferred prosecution agreement.
And most major corporate crime prosecutions are brought this way now.
The company pays a fine. The company is charged with a crime. But
there is no conviction. And after two or three years, depending on the
term of the agreement, the charges are dropped.
12. Corporations love non prosecution agreements even more.
One Friday evening last July, I was sitting my office in the National
Press Building. And into my e-mail box came a press release from the
Justice Department.
The press release announced that Boeing will pay a $50 million
criminal penalty and $615 million in civil penalties to resolveŚfederal claims relating to the company's hiring of the former Air
Force acquisitions chief Darleen A. Druyun, by its then CFO, Michael
Sears -- and stealing sensitive procurement information.
So, the company pays a criminal penalty. And I figure, okay if they
paid a criminal penalty, they must have pled guilty.
No, they did not plead guilty.
Okay, they must have been charged with a crime and had the prosecution
deferred.
No, they were not charged with a crime and did not have the
prosecution deferred.
About a week later, after pounding the Justice Department for an
answer as to what happened to Boeing, they sent over something called
a non prosecution agreement.
That is where the Justice Department says -- we're going to fine you
criminally, but hey, we don't want to cost you any government
business, so sign this agreement. It says we won't prosecute you if
you pay the fine and change your ways.
Corporate criminals love non prosecution agreements. No criminal
charge. No criminal record. No guilty plea. Just pay the fine and
leave.
11. In health fraud cases, find an empty closet or defunct entity to
plead guilty.
The government has a mandatory exclusion rule for health care
corporations that are convicted of ripping off Medicare.
Such an exclusion is the equivalent of the death penalty. If a major
drug company can't do business with Medicare, it loses a big chunk of
its business. There have been many criminal prosecutions of major
health care corporations for ripping off Medicare. And many of these
companies have pled guilty. But not one major health care company has
been excluded from Medicare.
Why not?
Because when you read in the newspaper that a major health care
company pled guilty, it's not the parent company that pleads guilty.ŚThe prosecutor will allow a unit of the corporation that has no assets
-- or even a defunct entity -- to plead guilty. And therefore that
unit will be excluded from Medicare -- which doesn't bother the parent
corporation, because the unit had no business with Medicare to begin
with.
Earlier, Dr. Sidney Wolfe was here and talked about the criminal
prosecution of Purdue Pharma, the Stamford, Connecticut-based maker of
OxyContin.
Dr. Wolfe said that the company pled guilty to pushing OxyContin by
making claims that it is less addictive and less subject to abuse than
other pain medications and that it continued to do so despite warnings
to the contrary from doctors, the media, and members of its own sales
force.
Well, Purdue Pharma -- the company that makes and markets the drug --
didn't plead guilty. A different company -- Purdue Frederick pled
guilty. Purdue Pharma actually got a non-prosecution agreement. Purdue
Frederick had nothing to lose, so it pled guilty.
10. Corporate criminals don't like to be put on probation.
Very rarely, a corporation convicted of a crime will be placed on
probation. Many years ago, Consolidated Edison in New York was
convicted of an environmental crime. A probation official was
assigned. Employees would call him with wrongdoing. He would write
reports for the judge. The company changed its ways. There was actual
change within the corporation.
Corporations hate this. They hate being under the supervision of some
public official, like a judge.
We need more corporate probation.
9. Corporate criminals don't like to be charged with homicide.
Street murders occur every day in America. And they are prosecuted
every day in America. Corporate homicides occur every day in America.
But they are rarely prosecuted.
The last homicide prosecution brought against a major American
corporation was in 1980, when a Republican Indiana prosecutor charged
Ford Motor Co. with homicide for the deaths of three teenaged girls
who died when their Ford Pinto caught on fire after being rear-endedŚin northern Indiana.
The prosecutor alleged that Ford knew that it was marketing a
defective product, with a gas tank that crushed when rear ended,
spilling fuel.
In the Indiana case, the girls were incinerated to death.
But Ford brought in a hot shot criminal defense lawyer who in turn
hired the best friend of the judge as local counsel, and who, as a
result, secured a not guilty verdict after persuading the judge to
keep key evidence out of the jury room.
It's time to crank up the corporate homicide prosecutions.
8. There are very few career prosecutors of corporate crime.
Patrick Fitzgerald is one that comes to mind. He's the U.S. Attorney
in Chicago. He put away Scooter Libby. And he's now prosecuting the
Canadian media baron Conrad Black.
7. Most corporate crime prosecutors see their jobs as a stepping stone
to greater things.
Spitzer and Giuliani prosecuted corporate crime as a way to move up
the political ladder. But most young prosecutors prosecute corporate
crime to move into the lucrative corporate crime defense bar.
6. Most corporate criminals turn themselves into the authorities.
The vast majority of corporate criminal prosecutions are now driven by
the corporations themselves. If they find something wrong, they know
they can trust the prosecutor to do the right thing. They will be
forced to pay a fine, maybe agree to make some internal changes.
But in this day and age, in all likelihood, they will not be forced to
plead guilty.
So, better to be up front with the prosecutor and put the matter
behind them. To save the hide of the corporation, they will cooperate
with federal prosecutors against individual executives within the
company. Individuals will be charged, the corporation will not.
5. The market doesn't take most modern corporate criminal prosecutions
seriously.ŚAlmost universally, when a corporate crime case is settled, the stock
of the company involved goes up.
Why? Because a cloud has been cleared and there is no serious
consequence to the company. No structural changes in how the company
does business. No monitor. No probation. Preserving corporate
reputation is the name of the game.
4. The Justice Department needs to start publishing an annual
Corporate Crime in the United States report.
Every year, the Justice Department puts out an annual report titled
"Crime in the United States."
But by "Crime in the United States," the Justice Department means
"street crime in the United States."
In the "Crime in the United States" annual report, you can read about
burglary, robbery and theft.
There is little or nothing about price-fixing, corporate fraud,
pollution, or public corruption.
A yearly Justice Department report on Corporate Crime in the United
States is long overdue.
3. We must start asking -- which side are you on -- with the corporate
criminals or against?
Most professionals in Washington work for, are paid by, or are under
the control of the corporate crime lobby. Young lawyers come to town,
fresh out of law school, 25 years old, and their starting salary is
$160,000 a year. And they're working for the corporate criminals.
Young lawyers graduating from the top law schools have all kinds of
excuses for working for the corporate criminals -- huge debt, just
going to stay a couple of years for the experience.
But the reality is, they are working for the corporate criminals.
What kind of respect should we give them? Especially since they have
many options other than working for the corporate criminals.
Time to dust off that age-old question -- which side are you on? (For
young lawyers out there considering other options, check out AlanŚMorrison's new book, Beyond the Big Firm: Profiles of Lawyers Who Want
Something More.)
2. We need a 911 number for the American people to dial to report
corporate crime and violence.
If you want to report street crime and violence, call 911.
But what number do you call if you want to report corporate crime and
violence?
We propose 611.
Call 611 to report corporate crime and violence.
We need a national number where people can pick up the phone and
report the corporate criminals in our midst.
What triggered this thought?
We attended the press conference at the Justice Department the other
day announcing the indictment of Congressman William Jefferson (D-
Louisiana).
Jefferson was the first U.S. official charged with violating the
Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
Federal officials alleged that Jefferson was both on the giving and
receiving ends of bribe payments.
On the receiving end, he took $100,000 in cash -- $90,000 of it was
stuffed into his freezer in Washington, D.C.
The $90,000 was separated in $10,000 increments, wrapped in aluminum
foil, and concealed inside various frozen food containers.
At the press conference announcing the indictment, after various
federal officials made their case before the cameras, up to the mike
came Joe Persichini, assistant director of the Washington field office
of the FBI.
"To the American people, I ask you, take time," Persichini said. "Read
this charging document line by line, scheme by scheme, count by count.
This case is about greed, power and arrogance."
Ś"Everyone is entitled to honest and ethical public service,"
Persichini continued. "We as leaders standing here today cannot do it
alone. We need the public's help. The amount of corruption is
dependent on what the public with allow.
Again, the amount of corruption is dependent on what the public will
allow."
""f you have knowledge of, if you've been confronted with or you are
participating, I ask that you contact your local FBI office or you
call the Washington Field Office of the FBI at 202.278.2000. Thank you
very much."
Shorten the number -- make it 611.
1. And the number one thing you should know about corporate crime?
Everyone is deserving of justice. So, question, debate, strategize,
yes.
But if God-forbid you too are victimized by a corporate criminal, you
too will demand justice.
We need a more beefed up, more effective justice system to deal with
the corporate criminals in our midst.
Russell Mokhiber is the editor of Corporate Crime Reporter.
================
> Just prior to
> graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight about
> what our training represented. He was quick to point out that the only thing
> it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a brotherhood of sorts
> and that we possessed certain knowledge that most others do not - and that
> was it. It didn't make us smarter than anyone else - it didn't entitle us to
> anything special. It only alerts hiring managers of things we should know.
> It is a foot in a door. The rest is up to us - we must prove ourselves
> through action just as anyone else must. I think that was a pretty good way
> of presenting reality to the class.
>
> I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
> business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate ability,
> experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where others may have
> failed.
>>
>> I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
>> sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.
>
> I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
> of millions of someone else's money. That is a lot of responsibility. My
> management style has always worked well for me and those around me, and there
> is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get: treat people
> well and they will march into the gates of hell for you without you even
> having to ask.
May we ask some of the people that worked for you for their side of the
story? And, maybe a sample of your clients and customers?
I have always measured my success in terms of the success of
> those around me. If my team succeeds, it means I did my job well. If they
> fail, chances are that it is my fault. There is much about management and
> leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue about. It isn't esoteric or complex,
> yet most just are incapable of practicing it - or unwilling. We could write
> books on this, and many have. One way of looking at it is the good old
> Golden Rule. Always ask yourself how would you like to be treated by a
> manager in this situation or that. Unless you are somehow organically
> damaged, chances are the answer will never be "like shit" or "like a
> commodity".
For decades, and from WSJ Op-Ed pieces authored by executives talking
about themselves and their companies, the message is almost always as if
the author has a shiny, glowing-in-the-dark halo, angel wings, and walks
on water.
I will grant that much business is "decent" and to some degree "fair", but
you are also giving a pollyanna spin to your own overindulgence in the
story: "aren't we great!"
Me
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Demon Buddha wrote:
> rick++ wrote:
>> Business books are like diet books - not much new under the sun.
>> But many people feel they have to read new books.
>>
>
> Similar to going to movies. There are about 5 unique stories that
> have ever been told.
May we ask you to name (or describe) those five unique stories?
I will suggest that you have no idea what is in literature.
All movies are variations on those five, yet people
> keep going. We like a good story. :)
I've been reading the Washington Post "Books" magazine (weekly), and the
book reviews in the scientific journal _Science_ for over 30 years.
I have the impression you really don't read very much.
Old Pif
>
> Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?
>
The best way to evaluate the quality of a theory is to look at the
results. Which are dismal. MBA are massively employed mostly by the
corporations - for small businesses it is suicidal. And, supposedly,
those trained in the best schools would bring the companies to the new
level of prosperity. Instead, as you can observe, they are massively
going bankrupt.
If you take as a classical example GM, which once has been
indisputable leader when it had been created and run by engineers, you
see how much time does it take for MBA to ruin the prosperous
business.
Demon Buddha
Assuming this is so, which of us will be the first to volunteer to step
into the disintegration chambers? Or does anyone think that the
population will not continue to grow significantly for at least one more
generation even of most people stopped fucking yesterday?
Old Pif
>
> Assuming this is so, which of us will be the first to volunteer to step
> into the disintegration chambers? Or does anyone think that the
> population will not continue to grow significantly for at least one more
> generation even of most people stopped fucking yesterday?
>
They are welcome to fuck as much as they could but the sad fact is
that substantial part of the Globe population lives only because
charity organizations manage to bring them food year after year. And
one day they fail to do so simply because there will be not enough
food even for those who can buy it. The Earth is finite in all senses.
Nothing is unlimited. Imagine the huge ocean which looks like infinite
and even that seemingly infinite source of food people manage to
deplete to zero with overfishing and pollution.
Me
There is an article in the most recent The Economist, indicating that
birthrates even in 3rd world countries is dropping off, and it certainly
has in a good number of first world countries.
However, as development continues to expand outside the first world
countries, the number of fossil fueled cars (read: CO2 output,
non-renewable energy depletion, pollutions, etc) will become much worse
(think China, India).
And, at least on my newsserver you, Mr. Demon Buddha, did not answer my
long response to your bountiful effervescence about capitalism and your
own kingly role in it.
Me
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, morris croy wrote:
>> And, at least on my newsserver you, Mr. Demon Buddha, did not answer my
>> long response to your bountiful effervescence about capitalism and your
>> own kingly role in it.
>
> He must be too busy snorting cocaine all day. ;)
>
Bzzzt, wrong answer.
Must be snorting Ann Rand all day. >:-|
BMJ
A review about a new book on her which appeared recently on the NYT website:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/books/review/Kirsch-t.html
Notice that a certain former Fed chairman appears to have bee influenced by
her philosophy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Old Pif
>
> > Must be snorting Ann Rand all day. >:-|
>
> A review about a new book on her which appeared recently on the NYT website:
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/books/review/Kirsch-t.html
>
> Notice that a certain former Fed chairman appears to have bee influenced by
> her philosophy.
>
If that is the essence of her "philosophy"
*****************************************************************************************************
Rand’s particular intellectual contribution, the thing that makes her
so popular and so American, is the way she managed to mass market
elitism — to convince so many people, especially young people, that
they could be geniuses without being in any concrete way
distinguished.
******************************************************************************************************
Greenspan obviously overdosed.
Demon Buddha
> And, at least on my newsserver you, Mr. Demon Buddha, did not answer my
> long response to your bountiful effervescence about capitalism and your
> own kingly role in it.
Never saw it. Could you repost? It is not available on my server, for
whatever reason.
Thanks.
BMJ
> On Nov 5, 10:53 am, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> Must be snorting Ann Rand all day. >:-|
>> A review about a new book on her which appeared recently on the NYT website:
>>
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/books/review/Kirsch-t.html
>>
>> Notice that a certain former Fed chairman appears to have bee influenced by
>> her philosophy.
>>
>
> If that is the essence of her "philosophy"
>
> *****************************************************************************************************
> so popular and so American, is the way she managed to mass market
> they could be geniuses without being in any concrete way
> distinguished.
> ******************************************************************************************************
>
> Greenspan obviously overdosed.
Not just him, but a whole generation or two of economists and politicians.
She even was mentioned in an episode of "Mad Men", so she must have said
something that struck a chord.
I remember seeing copies of her books on display in the library of my
senior high school, alongside other titles which were popular at the time
such as those by Tolkien. I never read any of them and had absolutely no
idea about her or her ideology. After reading about her on Wikipedia,
maybe it was a good thing that I didn't.
Me
Yeah, here.....
From arth...@mv.com Tue Nov 3 02:46:40 2009
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Demon Buddha wrote:
> phil scott wrote:
>
>> nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
>> theory based on
>> a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
>
> Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?
I alread gave quotes of a book review of a book that recommended against
----------------------
=========================
============================
Not true.
The FBI estimates that, 16,000 Americans are murdered every year.~LCompare this to the 56,000 Americans who die every year on the job or
The mafia, no.
The gangstas, no.
The street thugs, no.
For every company convicted of polluting the nation's waterways, there~Lare many others who are not prosecuted because their corporate defense
guilty to a crime.~LSo, for example, so many large corporations were pleading guilty to
criminal penalty and $615 million in civil penalties to resolve~Lfederal claims relating to the company's hiring of the former Air
Why not?
company pled guilty, it's not the parent company that pleads guilty.~LThe prosecutor will allow a unit of the corporation that has no assets
who died when their Ford Pinto caught on fire after being rear-ended~Lin northern Indiana.
seriously.~LAlmost universally, when a corporate crime case is settled, the stock
young lawyers out there considering other options, check out Alan~LMorrison's new book, Beyond the Big Firm: Profiles of Lawyers Who Want
Something More.)
We propose 611.
What triggered this thought?
~L"Everyone is entitled to honest and ethical public service,"
Me
The story I get is that Rand was close to a genius and virtually no one
could argue with her and win. But, if you get serious about this stuff, it
(Rand's philosophy) boils down to an endorsement for selfishness. Or, in
other words, if you want ANYthing, you'll have to pay someone for it. Or,
in still over words, only money is important; concepts such as love, blood
relations, alliances, freinds/enemies, favors and deeds, intellectual
pleasures (and socialism of any kind) seem to have no place in the Randian
universe.
I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead and recognized the "pro-business"
mood and the anti-union sentiment, among other things. Rand would make a
good king/emperor and when I use the term _good_ in that phrase I'm
emphasizing the typical "king" or "emperor" behavior, not that the
behavior is good. But, the WSJ had a few articles on Rand's books:
recently with the recession there has been a resurgence of interest in her
books (sales go up a lot).
I say...... barf.
BMJ
> On Nov 5, 7:53 pm, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I remember seeing copies of her books on display in the library of my
>> senior high school, alongside other titles which were popular at the time
>> such as those by Tolkien. I never read any of them and had absolutely no
>> idea about her or her ideology. After reading about her on Wikipedia,
>> maybe it was a good thing that I didn't.
>
> would have really change your mind and thinking about life?
Quite likely. That was during the early '70s and I kept away from the
counter-culture. I might have found something of interest in Rand's writings.
BMJ
>
>
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, Old Pif wrote:
>
>> On Nov 5, 10:53 am, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Must be snorting Ann Rand all day. >:-|
>>>
>>> A review about a new book on her which appeared recently on the NYT
>>> website:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/books/review/Kirsch-t.html
>>>
>>> Notice that a certain former Fed chairman appears to have bee
>>> influenced by
>>> her philosophy.
>>>
>>
>> If that is the essence of her "philosophy"
>>
>> *****************************************************************************************************
>>
>> so popular and so American, is the way she managed to mass market
>> they could be geniuses without being in any concrete way
>> distinguished.
>> ******************************************************************************************************
>>
>>
>> Greenspan obviously overdosed.
>>
>
> The story I get is that Rand was close to a genius and virtually no one
> could argue with her and win. But, if you get serious about this stuff,
> it (Rand's philosophy) boils down to an endorsement for selfishness. Or,
> in other words, if you want ANYthing, you'll have to pay someone for it.
> Or, in still over words, only money is important; concepts such as love,
> blood relations, alliances, freinds/enemies, favors and deeds,
> intellectual pleasures (and socialism of any kind) seem to have no place
> in the Randian
> universe.
They certainly don't seem to count for a lot nowadays. If you got the $$$,
you can pretty much do whatever you like.
BMJ
> On Nov 5, 10:55 pm, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> They certainly don't seem to count for a lot nowadays. If you got the $$$,
>> you can pretty much do whatever you like.
>
> considered a joke and not worthy of further intellectual discussion.
I don't know about that. I've known of academics who would make today's
neo-cons look like raving pinkos.
BMJ
> On Nov 5, 10:53 pm, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Do you think that reading her books when you were in high school,
>>> would have really change your mind and thinking about life?
>> Quite likely. That was during the early '70s and I kept away from the
>> counter-culture. I might have found something of interest in Rand's writings.
>
> (grade 8 or 9), in hindsight I think I completely misunderstood the
> context of it. In those days, I thought it read like a "license" to
> be a spoiled brat for life. ;)
>
> Back in those days, some punk rock music had a similar mentality in
> advocating "brattiness".
Unlike what's on many MP3 players nowadays, eh?
BMJ
> celebrities being "in your face" and outrageous. They keep on pushing
> the limit in brattiness and extreme behavior, just to get their 15
> minutes of fame.
Sort of like Joe Walsh's song "Life's Been Good To Me So Far"..... That
song was on the charts in '78 when he was a member of the Eagles. I seem
to recall he performed it as part of the concert when they were on tour.
BMJ
<snkp>
>>> It's largely become an arms race ever since, in rock stars and
>>> celebrities being "in your face" and outrageous. They keep on pushing
>>> the limit in brattiness and extreme behavior, just to get their 15
>>> minutes of fame.
>> Sort of like Joe Walsh's song "Life's Been Good To Me So Far"..... That
>> song was on the charts in '78 when he was a member of the Eagles. I seem
>> to recall he performed it as part of the concert when they were on tour.
>
> With reality shows becoming so popular over the last decade, now
> anybody can be stupid on TV and have their 15 minutes of fame.
The other day, I came across a Youtube video for the opening credits for
"Miami Vice" (which first went on the air about 25 years ago--yikes!).
Someone submitted the comment that it was nice to be reminded when TV shows
didn't include some talentless prats making fools of themselves or
celebrity judges who need to get a job. (The contributor probably never
heard of "The Gong Show"....)
BTW, I remember watching only two episodes of MV and thought the show was
silly. If I saw again them now, I might change my mind.
BMJ
> On Nov 5, 11:47 pm, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The other day, I came across a Youtube video for the opening credits for
>> "Miami Vice" (which first went on the air about 25 years ago--yikes!).
>> Someone submitted the comment that it was nice to be reminded when TV shows
>> didn't include some talentless prats making fools of themselves or
>> celebrity judges who need to get a job. (The contributor probably never
>> heard of "The Gong Show"....)
>>
>> BTW, I remember watching only two episodes of MV and thought the show was
>> silly. If I saw again them now, I might change my mind.
>
>
> I thought it was a crappy show back then. Saw a few episodes more
> recently where my opinion of it hasn't changed.
One thing I remember was how much it was influenced by MTV both in its look
and presentation, as were a lot of other shows and movies back then.
After MV went on the air, just about every cop/spy show looked like it,
complete with camera views and plot devices, though about equally as
shallow with respect to story and character development. Look at "NCIS" or
"The Border".
BMJ
> On Nov 6, 12:03 am, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> After MV went on the air, just about every cop/spy show looked like it,
>> complete with camera views and plot devices, though about equally as
>> shallow with respect to story and character development. Look at "NCIS" or
>> "The Border".
>
> a run down crime ridden area at the time. My relatives who lived in
> Miami back in the 70's and early 80's, rarely ever went to that area
> for obvious reasons.
>
> So many TV shows are like the equivalent of hitting the reset button
> with each episode.
Sort of like:
http://writing-program.uchicago.edu/toys/randomsentence/write-sentence.htm
except for plots.
Worse is when different series start resembling each other except for the
names of the characters, who they work for, and were the episodes take
place. Many of the cop shows in the early to mid-'70s were like that.
BMJ
> On Nov 6, 12:18 am, BMJ <owlstretchingt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> So many TV shows are like the equivalent of hitting the reset button
>>> with each episode.
>> Sort of like:
>>
>>
>> except for plots.
>>
>> Worse is when different series start resembling each other except for the
>> names of the characters, who they work for, and were the episodes take
>> place. Many of the cop shows in the early to mid-'70s were like that.
>
>
> - Law and Order
> - CSI
And in another genre, there's all the shows spawned by the original "Star
Trek" as well as "Stargate SG-1". The original movie which inspired the
latter was silly fun, but the series was forgettable. I never bothered
with "Stargate Atlantis", but I did watch the first episode of "Stargate
Universe", though I was dusting and hoovering my apartment at the time.
Yup, it was pretty bad....
BMJ
<snip>
>>>> Worse is when different series start resembling each other except for the
>>>> names of the characters, who they work for, and were the episodes take
>>>> place. Many of the cop shows in the early to mid-'70s were like that.
>>> These days they even have the same names:
>>> - Law and Order
>>> - CSI
>> And in another genre, there's all the shows spawned by the original "Star
>> Trek" as well as "Stargate SG-1". The original movie which inspired the
>> latter was silly fun, but the series was forgettable. I never bothered
>> with "Stargate Atlantis", but I did watch the first episode of "Stargate
>> Universe", though I was dusting and hoovering my apartment at the time.
>> Yup, it was pretty bad....
>
> It's a sad state of affairs when these franchises with the same names
> dominate the prime time lineup on network television, squeezed in
> between the reality TV junk.
It's a case of if it works, don't fix it. Just change the appearance
slightly, as well as the actors, and bingo!, a "new" series or movie.
Look at all the Hollywood remakes. Seldom, however, does a remake improve
on the original, one of those being John Houston's "The Maltese Falcon" and
Alfred Hitchcock's "North by Northwest" (the latter has a similar plot to
his earlier flick "Saboteur").
Me
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, morris croy wrote:
>> The story I get is that Rand was close to a genius and virtually no one
>> could argue with her and win. But, if you get serious about this stuff, it
>> (Rand's philosophy) boils down to an endorsement for selfishness. Or, in
>> other words, if you want ANYthing, you'll have to pay someone for it. Or,
>> in still over words, only money is important; concepts such as love, blood
>> relations, alliances, freinds/enemies, favors and deeds, intellectual
>> pleasures (and socialism of any kind) seem to have no place in the Randian
>> universe.
>>
>> I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead and recognized the "pro-business"
>> mood and the anti-union sentiment, among other things. Rand would make a
>> good king/emperor and when I use the term _good_ in that phrase I'm
>> emphasizing the typical "king" or "emperor" behavior, not that the
>> behavior is good. But, the WSJ had a few articles on Rand's books:
>> recently with the recession there has been a resurgence of interest in her
>> books (sales go up a lot).
>
> Some people just read stuff, largely to confirm their own personal
> biases and beliefs.
>
> Of the people I knew for a long time who were huge fans of Ayn Rand,
> many were largely very selfish themselves and just happened to found
> that Rand's philosophy "fits like a glove" with their own personal
> beliefs and prejudices. Over the years I've met very few people who
> were greatly changed by reading Rand's books when they were adults.
>
> The same can be said about many other books, such as books written by
> Hitler, Marx, etc ...
>
Another example from me is Griffin's book "The Creature from Jekyll
Island" all about the Fed and why it should be abolished. I disagreed, but
I sure learned a hell of a lot about (fractional reserve) banking, money,
and what makes the world go round. Its quite fascinating, though. And, the
larger picture is what is stunning (including all the Machiavellian crap).
phil scott
> Me wrote:
>
> > Book review from WSJ, Aug 5, 2009
>
> > title of book:"The Management Myth"
> > author: Matthew Stewart
>
> > Title of the book review: "Bogus Theories, Bad for Business"
> > Author of the book review: Philip Delves Broughton
>
> > Quote:
>
> > "[Matthew Stewart's] ...advice to to anyone considering an MBA was
> > 'don't go to business school, study philosophy.' The secrets of
> > business, he said, were to be found in history, literature and the
> > classic ruminations on life and existence, not in the half-baked
> > ramblings of business academics, consultants and 'gurus'."
>
> I disagree. The advice of studying philosophy is well taken, but the
> study of business is a worthwhile pursuit as well. I fully agree that
> the notions of the academics have perhaps more than their share of
> problems, but studying this system is, IMO, very valuable from several
> standpoints. You just have to take some of what you are taught with a
> questioning attitude. Free enterprise in the form of free markets may
> not be perfect but it is the best we have right now. Studies such as
> those for the MBA allow the astute student to compare what is taught
> with what is practiced and that simple activity can prove most enlightening.
>
>
>
> > farther down:
>
> > "The business world, according to Mr. Stewart, has become so obsessed
> > with its own perverse value system and view of human nature that is is
> > undermining the 'commons' of society."
>
> This I firmly agree with. Not everything "common" is communistic,
> socialistic, authoritarian, fascistic, or totalitarian. They key to a
> proper... erm... "management" of the so-called "commons" is proper
> understanding and a minimalist approach that doesn't go so far minimal
> that it finds itself floating in the midst of the Simplistic Sea.
> Contrariwise, over-controlling results in equal or greater perdition,
> IMO. So many people appear to have forgotten that thing called the
> middle path.
>
>
>
> > The rest of the book review has additional comments of a similar quality.
>
> > Or, maybe we need a contemporary author to write a new, relevant version
> > of either George Orwell's "1984" or Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"?
>
> Shit, I could knock that out in one night's writing.
>
> > Oh...shit...we're already living in a dystopia!!!
>
> > Its called "globalized" earth!!!
>
> Sounds purty, but damn is that girl homely.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
'viable' business strategy in the hands of the morally depraved
produces what we see today, it is self
decimating
Phil scott
phil scott
> phil scott wrot
>
> > as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
> > of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
>
> If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
> significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
> die. By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages. When I was
> teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
> things like meat came from. They would answer with the sincere offer of
> "the store" or some equivalent. That was 84-86. The ignorance has
> gotten significantly worse since those days.
indeed and these look so normal, even competent otherwise, its that
way
as high as you go in business and industry... and in education.
Id like to know, what happens when you tell the kid meat comes from
living
animals then show them cows and carcases,,, etc, a simple fix but you
dont see it happening,,, whats up with that?
do they stick you with incompent texts or as in chemistry leave out
atomic
theory and whatever
>For many, common sense is
> simply out of their reach in the time frames we could be considering.
> People who not only have never known hunger but also never learned how
> to do anything real (being some top dog video game jockey doesn't count,
> nor does skill in rapping) and are not in the habit of doing for
> themselves are going to be in for a very hard time if and when the
> bottom really comes out of this thing.
>
>
>
> > however the feed stock
> > will be weak ss hell, having not been taught logic, algebra or history
> > in high school.
>
> How about how to raise food? Carpentry? Blacksmithing? Marksmanship?
> Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
> technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
> time.
yes,insight, capability,productive skills sets and work ethic that
took decades to build die **instantly...
when that person or generation retires then dies off if it has not
trained replacements, ,
mostly the potential replacements have had an easy life. no
motivation to gain valuable skills, or even appreciate them,.. these
become
managers in too many cases because their focus has been socially, with
no regard for function,,,but socially these become dominant..and fire
the technical talent. or seek to drive the pay rates down.... so
these move on...then the culture collapses
we are at that threshold, there is no support now or historically for
a reversal,,
nations are living organisms they die,,, and all on schedule..
exceptions were the nomad nations with no written language or money,
just barter,,, those last a thousand years or more,,, there is not
much to pervert,,, each person is competent or dies off because he
cant hunt or cope, so the group stays strong
with money the incompetent can be supported... supporting incompetence
is fatal etc the money is perverted
> When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
> something to offer those who can take care of themselves. Better yet
> that they themselves learn those same basics. But no, that's all passé.
> Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
> Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.
I began as a tradesman,, (HVAC and electrical) then became an
engineer and consultant, I lost my trade skills
from disuse and with it my engineering suffered,... regainng my well
polished trade skills took 10 years,, it was not easy
now I do a mix deliberately and Im damn glad of it,, as engineering
as moved to india my trade skills are saving my
bacon at age 68 no less. I do about half engineering now and half
trades...
from scratch it might as well have been impossible.... I dont see the
non productive types coming up to
viability when times get tough,.. its not easy,,, a man could starve
to death trying,
you are on target,..this is the decay and collapse pattern seen all
through history.
its a 5 generation cycle
read dr ravi batra's 'the coming collapse (or depression) 1990'
you will be glad you did... it is analysis of Kondratiev'studys on the
topic. 1930's
Phil scott
phil scott
> phil scott wrote:
> > nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
> > theory based on
> > a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
>
> Could you give a few examples of such bogus theories?
yes... the notion of costing projects with a fixed ratio of costs and
overhead,,, when overhead'as a percentage
declines with volume,,, so if you stay with the original and usually
recommended fixed percentages you loose enough
business to limit your expansion.
thats a complex issue stated poorly here
a client taught it to me he is viable now with a growing company as
his competion collapses
you see it with the discount stores,,, they get all the buiness in the
end,..and more dollar profits even
on narrower margins
another... the idea of motivating employee's by incentives...external
incentives... that fails long term...real success is
*internally motivated, You culture that by not attempting to control
the worker but by giving him his head, and having the brains
yourself to recognise talent and reward it... and the guts to let
those not self motivated go. the self motivated will create
a winning company for you... others will simply graze on it
matrix management,,, etc ad nauseum anything that takes you away
from genuine *human interest.. yours, your clients best interests,
and staff is self decimating long term,,, by human interests though I
do not mean sweetness and light but interest in personal advance and
accomplishment,, self motivated,,,,
companies are living organisms.... the matrix is not... its the
borg.... the borg gets strong for sure,, but fails ultimately thats
because it is not a living organism but a dead thing,, a matrix
> I am curious
> what they may be and why you think that way about them.
why? I founded and ran two companies of my own, made every mistake in
the book I was a complete
idiot,,, I have that down pat....then I began consulting nationally
and saw worse on a large scale, and the best
on a large scale... and so I learned what the driving forces were
at US dept of Energy weapons sites, texas instruments, IBM, a
dozen others usually I got hired to turn bad projects around I got
good at forensics as a tech in my early years,,,I look for the
derivitive factors as seen in calculus and the prime factors as seen
in algebra and the driving algorithms to the core,. not at the effects
level but at the primary cause levels
that offends everyone in sight though,,,, so you have to be willing to
take the heat even from your own client.
if you are that type you learn how to find what I call the core
issues
''
then you address the core,,,, and screen against it,,,a preson wants
to be part of a failure algorithm you invite him to
show you success, give him a free hand ,,most freeze right there
they cant produce a result,,, just bluster, thats the failure
algorithm 'in that case
>When I did my
> MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
> experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.
When I had my business in LA I was in my late twenties (industrial
faciliies), a few dozen staff... and was beating myself to death
so i looked at the rest of the industry and who ran them,,, real
close... and hard,.. and ask myself i wanted'to end up'
that stultified, the answer was no,
it took the next 49 years to gain the partial cloo I have now,,,,
many of the others are long since turned to stone or with
alzhiemers and ugly wives.... I was flat tracking until age 67.. and
still sling the tools, and still come up with world class
competion beating innovations.
I just did a high school class reunion, from that class of 150 or so
we had 5 actual rocket scientists, glorious folk who
put me to shame almost on many levels. personally and otherwise,. I
did well but it was hard,,, some made it to the top
with glowing colors,,, some of the pool room tactics ended up in
rocket and nuclear weapons development for instance
amazing stories from guys who you;d never of expected it from,
>
> One thing that I would warn people against is taking what they get from
> the media too much to heart. Most business managers I have known and
> worked with, which by now numbers over 1000 (nature of my business) are
> very ethical, honest, smart, and capable people. The media sell misery
> and drama. That is what gets the ad dollars. Typical news, IMO,
> represents a highly concentrated and therefore highly distorted picture
> of realities such as the general demeanor of businessmen. How often do
> they do stories on those who run their companies efficiently while
> providing value to customers and good environments for employees? Not
> that often, and one must also consider the common cognitive "habit", as
> it were, of people to rapidly forget good news while retaining the bad.
> All of this serves to build mental castles of ugly gray stone wherein
> the actors are all Eville(tm) and nasty. As this applies to business,
> it is generally very misleading.
>
> To be sure, there are bad actors out there. It also appears to me that
> it requires just a few to wreak great harm on the rest, much as just a
> few small, well placed charges can take down an office building in
> seconds whereas erecting it may have taken years. Entropy is a most
> interesting phenomenon.
>
> > One of my clients, is not educated
>
> > but his construction business prospers as others around here went from
> > 700 staff to zero.
>
> But this does not impeach a formal business education. Just prior to
> graduation, the CEO of some huge company came to us and set us straight
> about what our training represented. He was quick to point out that the
> only thing it really signifies is that we had been initiated into a
> brotherhood of sorts and that we possessed certain knowledge that most
> others do not - and that was it. It didn't make us smarter than anyone
> else - it didn't entitle us to anything special. It only alerts hiring
> managers of things we should know. It is a foot in a door. The rest is
> up to us - we must prove ourselves through action just as anyone else
> must. I think that was a pretty good way of presenting reality to the
> class.
>
> I, too, have known people who not only had some natural knack for
> business, they acted upon it and through that combination of innate
> ability, experience, action, and attitude, they too prospered where
> others may have failed.
>
>
>
> > I wont spill his secrets here, but they are sophisticated comon
> > sense..he beats the pants off of his competition.
>
> I have managed projects where I was directly responsible for hundreds
> of millions of someone else's money. That is a lot of responsibility.
> My management style has always worked well for me and those around me,
> and there is a simple "secret" to it that most people simply don't get:
> treat people well and they will march into the gates of hell for you
> without you even having to ask. I have always measured my success in
> terms of the success of those around me. If my team succeeds, it means
> I did my job well. If they fail, chances are that it is my fault.
well said
> There is much about management and leadership that Johnny Q. has no clue
> about. It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
> practicing it - or unwilling. We could write books on this, and many
> have. One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule. Always ask
> yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
> or that. Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
> answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".
phil scott
> phil scott wrote:
> > nice quote, thanks... it is true, today we have bogus management
> > theory based on
> > a complete lack of understanding or the rest of life.
>
> what they may be and why you think that way about them. When I did my
> MBA the management theories I learned strongly reinforced my
> experience-based knowledge from 25 years of being in business.
>
> about. It isn't esoteric or complex, yet most just are incapable of
> practicing it - or unwilling. We could write books on this, and many
> have. One way of looking at it is the good old Golden Rule. Always ask
> yourself how would you like to be treated by a manager in this situation
> or that. Unless you are somehow organically damaged, chances are the
> answer will never be "like shit" or "like a commodity".
you would succeed in cases where I would not...(80% of the cases) I
succeed in cases that had crashed and few others could fix them.. that
takes a delicate mix of carnage and respect for the talent
available,,, most dont have the technical or physics skills required
or the background for me that was flat tracking,,,(half mile dirt
ovals)
the two styles and peronalities are incompatible... both are
winners, you would not respect my style at all, and Id consider
yours an evasion of the real issues.... but in fact, imo,, there is a
time and place for each,,,,I will not even take a straight management
project,,, the last one, the CEO an impressive man with a killer wife
from Brazil''' I told him that Id be damaging to his best interests as
he was in the business of compromise .. and he had to be,,,, I only
get involved if it gets non functional
Phil scott
Demon Buddha
> On Nov 2, 4:28 pm, Demon Buddha <Nob...@no.where> wrote:
>> phil scott wrot
>>
>>> as this collapse goes ballistic, there will be a trend to the return
>>> of comon sense, it will be that or starvation...
>> If this thing gets serious, and up until now it has been just
>> significantly inconvenient for most, the likelihood is that many will
>> die. By "serious" I mean non-trivial food shortages. When I was
>> teaching in Harlem and the South Bronx I used to ask my students where
>> things like meat came from. They would answer with the sincere offer of
>> "the store" or some equivalent. That was 84-86. The ignorance has
>> gotten significantly worse since those days.
>
> indeed and these look so normal, even competent otherwise, its that
> way
> as high as you go in business and industry... and in education.
>
> Id like to know, what happens when you tell the kid meat comes from
> living
> animals then show them cows and carcases,,, etc, a simple fix but you
> dont see it happening,,, whats up with that?
The goal of the US school systems is to provide useful training and
"socialization" (social engineering) to students. Education is most
certainly not on the menu. When I was teaching, any time I tried
something new to get the kids interested, my AP would pull the plug
citing "legalities". To my horror, that man is now at Columbia's school
of "education", no doubt further mucking the works for the coming
generations.
>
> do they stick you with incompent texts or as in chemistry leave out
> atomic
> theory and whatever
The litany of egregious offenses of which school administrators are
guilty would take me years to fully describe here.
>> How about how to raise food? Carpentry? Blacksmithing? Marksmanship?
>> Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
>> technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
>> time.
>
>
>
>
> yes,insight, capability,productive skills sets and work ethic that
> took decades to build die **instantly...
We call that "entropy" in the engineering world.
> mostly the potential replacements have had an easy life. no
> motivation to gain valuable skills, or even appreciate them,.. these
> become
> managers in too many cases because their focus has been socially, with
> no regard for function,,,but socially these become dominant..and fire
> the technical talent. or seek to drive the pay rates down.... so
> these move on...then the culture collapses
When the culture collapses, which we are not even close to yet, those
managers will be some of the first to die. The "talent" will know how
to do things. To hell with the rest. They have had plenty of
opportunity to come around. Let them die.
>
> we are at that threshold, there is no support now or historically for
> a reversal,,
The nexus is upon us, that much I also believe. If it goes badly, I
suspect it will be very bad. It is not clear, however, that we indeed
have the choice to keep limping along lamely has we have for the past 40
years. Something is going to have to change and I fear that those
changes stand to be rather ugly. Freedom is a terminally endangered
thing. We can save it, but I am not confident that we will.
>
> nations are living organisms they die,,, and all on schedule..
They *can* behave in such an analogous manner, but I do not believe
that they must. Ancient Sumer went on as it did for a couple of
thousands of years. That should tell us something about what must or
must not happen.
> exceptions were the nomad nations with no written language or money,
> just barter,,, those last a thousand years or more,,, there is not
> much to pervert,,, each person is competent or dies off because he
> cant hunt or cope, so the group stays strong
Agreed, but the conditions of life leave precious little room for
tolerance of dishonorable behavior. That is one of the key differences
between them and us. We are so overly spoiled in a sense that we are
able to get away with taking many liberties with other peoples' rights
and freedoms.
>
> with money the incompetent can be supported... supporting incompetence
> is fatal etc the money is perverted
Not the money - the ethics. The *people*. Never make the mistake of
attributing to inanimate things that which lies at the feet of humans.
That is like blaming guns for murder and robbery, or that stupidly
quoted nonsense that "power corrupts". People corrupt. There is a
decent quote that jabs at this:
It's not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or
destiny that feeds them to dogs. It's us. Only us.
--Rorschach, Watchmen
>
>> When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
>> something to offer those who can take care of themselves. Better yet
>> that they themselves learn those same basics. But no, that's all pass�.
>> Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
>> Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.
>
> I began as a tradesman,, (HVAC and electrical) then became an
> engineer and consultant, I lost my trade skills
> from disuse and with it my engineering suffered,... regainng my well
> polished trade skills took 10 years,, it was not easy
> now I do a mix deliberately and Im damn glad of it,, as engineering
> as moved to india my trade skills are saving my
> bacon at age 68 no less. I do about half engineering now and half
> trades...
That is great. I am a blacksmith, cabinet maker, ceramist, and several
other sorts. These things do not just interest me - I see, feel, and
*know* the value they represent. I can and do raise my own food -
veggies, fruits, chickens, goats, ducks, geese, etc. May even get a cow
or two one of these days.
>
> from scratch it might as well have been impossible.... I dont see the
> non productive types coming up to
> viability when times get tough,.. its not easy,,, a man could starve
> to death trying,
Maybe. But methinks that when death is getting ready to do his thing
with one's backside, some will undoubtedly pop their heads out of that
dark place and make a most miraculous seeming recovery into the world of
real things. The rest will die, uncomprehendingly. It is a sad thing
perhaps, but not so sad that I would waste tears on them. We all make
our choices. If mine lead to my demise, that is tough for me. The same
goes for one and all.
>
>
>
>
> you are on target,..this is the decay and collapse pattern seen all
> through history.
> its a 5 generation cycle
So it would seem. Time will tell, ultimately. It is my hope that
things stay together long enough for me to get my finances together on
this new job in FL so I can build what I need and prepare ground for
more serious food production.
>
> read dr ravi batra's 'the coming collapse (or depression) 1990'
> you will be glad you did... it is analysis of Kondratiev'studys on the
> topic. 1930's
Thanks, I will check it out.
phil scott
I would never have never believed you on this point in the past.. but
over the last few
years this lack of education, and presence of bogus socialization has
become glaringly obvious.
thats for the inside information on that.
>
>
>
> > do they stick you with incompent texts or as in chemistry leave out
> > atomic
> > theory and whatever
>
> The litany of egregious offenses of which school administrators are
> guilty would take me years to fully describe here.
I wonder if there is a central driving force for that tac.... I had
about finished a consulting project for the US Dept of
Energy (Hanford Wash. weapons lab) and it ggot nasty, I ended up
testifying before congress and was recommended
a book by Rbt Openheimer, (father of the A bomb). ' The Open Mind'...
he asserts the US had begun a dumbing down process in
its schools at least by 1945... for control purposes according to him.
>
> >> How about how to raise food? Carpentry? Blacksmithing? Marksmanship?
> >> Basic living skills should be taught to everyone because all this
> >> technological wizardry by which we hang our lives can be gone in short
> >> time.
>
> > yes,insight, capability,productive skills sets and work ethic that
> > took decades to build die **instantly...
>
> We call that "entropy" in the engineering world.
Id tweek the term to 'catastrophic/ instantaneous entropy'... not the
slow winding down we
see generally... when the talented guy in a company dies... his entire
contribution stops dead in
its tracks... but yes there is the slow entropy following as the
systems he developed keep running
for a while.
>
> > mostly the potential replacements have had an easy life. no
> > motivation to gain valuable skills, or even appreciate them,.. these
> > become
> > managers in too many cases because their focus has been socially, with
> > no regard for function,,,but socially these become dominant..and fire
> > the technical talent. or seek to drive the pay rates down.... so
> > these move on...then the culture collapses
>
> When the culture collapses, which we are not even close to yet, those
> managers will be some of the first to die. The "talent" will know how
> to do things. To hell with the rest. They have had plenty of
> opportunity to come around. Let them die.
How close is close for you on these issues.... lately and for the last
5 years or more its not been possible for instance
to order a range of common electrical controls or valves from a
wholesaler by specification alone.... simple example "100 watt
incandescent light bulb'... wont work. these need the mfgrs part
number.. not knowiing what an incandescent bulb is.
its limitlessly worse on complex controls system components. this
situation is currently doubling my project schedules.
>
>
>
> > we are at that threshold, there is no support now or historically for
> > a reversal,,
>
> The nexus is upon us, that much I also believe. If it goes badly, I
> suspect it will be very bad. It is not clear, however, that we indeed
> have the choice to keep limping along lamely has we have for the past 40
> years. Something is going to have to change and I fear that those
> changes stand to be rather ugly. Freedom is a terminally endangered
> thing. We can save it, but I am not confident that we will.
this is the historical pattern, so far always ending in collapse...
then chaos..then a slow rebirth, not necessarily for the
better.
>
>
>
> > nations are living organisms they die,,, and all on schedule..
>
> They *can* behave in such an analogous manner, but I do not believe
> that they must. Ancient Sumer went on as it did for a couple of
> thousands of years. That should tell us something about what must or
> must not happen.
you have pointed out one of more than a few exceptions to Kondratievs
260 year long cycle... those as far as I can tell
were nations with no written language, no money and no
banking....though I bet Sumer had a written language. the Mongols
didnt..they lasted 1,000 years.... the chinese seem to have gone on
for thousands of years, except a closer look shows they
broke that up into dynasties, collapsing on schedule at 200 - 250
years or so. for the last 2,000 years or whatever none have
gone on beyond the 5 generation birth, growth, survive, rot and death
cycle.
>
> > exceptions were the nomad nations with no written language or money,
> > just barter,,, those last a thousand years or more,,, there is not
> > much to pervert,,, each person is competent or dies off because he
> > cant hunt or cope, so the group stays strong
>
> Agreed, but the conditions of life leave precious little room for
> tolerance of dishonorable behavior.
an astute observation, thanks. In my business today I remain
honorable and it pays off but takes
a year or so with each client before they realize im an exception,,,
meantime its a contest..as I age though
it gets easier. (im 68)
> That is one of the key differences
> between them and us. We are so overly spoiled in a sense that we are
> able to get away with taking many liberties with other peoples' rights
> and freedoms.
>
>
>
> > with money the incompetent can be supported... supporting incompetence
> > is fatal etc the money is perverted
>
> Not the money - the ethics. The *people*. Never make the mistake of
> attributing to inanimate things that which lies at the feet of humans.
you are correct... it would have been more accurate to say that the
money *gets perverted.
> That is like blaming guns for murder and robbery, or that stupidly
> quoted nonsense that "power corrupts". People corrupt. There is a
> decent quote that jabs at this:
>
> It's not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or
> destiny that feeds them to dogs. It's us. Only us.
> --Rorschach, Watchmen
>
>
>
> >> When that happens, those who don't know squat better have
> >> something to offer those who can take care of themselves. Better yet
> >> that they themselves learn those same basics. But no, that's all passé.
> >> Hopefully we will never find out whether I am on target or full of it.
> >> Life is so much better when most everyone prospers.
>
> > I began as a tradesman,, (HVAC and electrical) then became an
> > engineer and consultant, I lost my trade skills
> > from disuse and with it my engineering suffered,... regainng my well
> > polished trade skills took 10 years,, it was not easy
> > now I do a mix deliberately and Im damn glad of it,, as engineering
> > as moved to india my trade skills are saving my
> > bacon at age 68 no less. I do about half engineering now and half
> > trades...
>
> That is great. I am a blacksmith, cabinet maker, ceramist, and several
> other sorts. These things do not just interest me - I see, feel, and
> *know* the value they represent. I can and do raise my own food -
> veggies, fruits, chickens, goats, ducks, geese, etc. May even get a cow
> or two one of these days.
It will be a grass fed cow no doubt.
>
>
>
> > from scratch it might as well have been impossible.... I dont see the
> > non productive types coming up to
> > viability when times get tough,.. its not easy,,, a man could starve
> > to death trying,
>
> Maybe. But methinks that when death is getting ready to do his thing
> with one's backside, some will undoubtedly pop their heads out of that
> dark place and make a most miraculous seeming recovery into the world of
> real things. The rest will die, uncomprehendingly. It is a sad thing
> perhaps, but not so sad that I would waste tears on them. We all make
> our choices. If mine lead to my demise, that is tough for me. The same
> goes for one and all.
being a tough bastard myself, and having dug myself out... I can tell
you it was all I could handle..
I dont see many in the retail, management or banking business etc
doing much besides collecting welfare
or going into some low slill activity or fraud.
>
>
>
> > you are on target,..this is the decay and collapse pattern seen all
> > through history.
> > its a 5 generation cycle
>
> So it would seem. Time will tell, ultimately. It is my hope that
> things stay together long enough for me to get my finances together on
> this new job in FL so I can build what I need and prepare ground for
> more serious food production.
it will go 2 to 5 more years easily imo... I dont forsee a sudden
collapse, but a winding
down from here, including the occasional disaster..but not collapse...
and the collapse when
it comes will be on top of an already industrialized farming sector,
built power and road infrastructure etc.
it will not be the nastyness seen in prior centuries... a starvaton
free collapse in the US.... but not of course
in the third world.
As a craftsman you can take that on the road in a class A motorhome
retrofitted for the purpose, maybe towing a 12' box
trailer.. and do very well in a cash bidness. :) A sign painter
friend of mine did that for years, preferred it to a stationary
operation.
>
>
> > read dr ravi batra's 'the coming collapse (or depression) 1990'
> > you will be glad you did... it is analysis of Kondratiev'studys on the
> > topic. 1930's
>
> Thanks, I will check it out.
You will be glad you did.
Phil scott
Demon Buddha
Oh, I've done my share of project salvage operations as well. Do not
think that I am a touchy-feely manager. I am not. I afford qualified
trust to my people and when proven, I let them run. But in those
instances where a boss is required, I can read the riot act as well as
anyone, and have. I've even fired a few people. One does what one must
to get the train back on the tracks.
>
> the two styles and peronalities are incompatible... both are
> winners, you would not respect my style at all, and Id consider
> yours an evasion of the real issues.... but in fact, imo,, there is a
> time and place for each,,,,I will not even take a straight management
> project,,, the last one, the CEO an impressive man with a killer wife
> from Brazil''' I told him that Id be damaging to his best interests as
> he was in the business of compromise .. and he had to be,,,, I only
> get involved if it gets non functional
What sorts of things, if I may ask? I find this most interesting.
Demon Buddha
> 'viable' business strategy in the hands of the morally depraved
> produces what we see today, it is self
> decimating
Completely agree, but let us not forget that any tool may be abused.
The key to all action lies in the hearts of men. When those are rotten
and the environment supports the decay, the greater body suffers.
Unless we, the greater body, stand vigilantly against the thieves and
brutes, we are all toast at their hands, initially, and that of the
inevitable waterfall effects that result when thresholds are crossed.
I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they murder
themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
those awash in its waters.
phil scott
these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
to consider the damage
they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
completely corrupt..and they
know its corrupt...
these see excercise of their corruption as proof of their strength..
and see their
own dominance as right... even as the project goes into ruin... for
the last 20 years or so it seems project viablilty
is not even a consideration.
Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
short term interests... I even got that statement from a
congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.
(I told them that this approach ruined young engineers and had become
a culture that threatened the nations
industtrial competiveness... 1994.)
That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
its not even possible for these to make
an ethical decision.
.... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
types... also clueless but not short of the power to
ruin others or a project
...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
of confusion,
but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
jobs... those will oppose
corrective measures in most cases.
These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
issues, false socialization,
ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
this insures
thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
context . But it is a fatal compromise.
Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
life and family it can easily be too high
a price.
I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
decimates its host nation.
***
actual exceptions are few... Ive met a few people at the top levels
in business and govt who are exceptions... and have
had some degree of influence, amid the compromises... those have all
been a lot brigher than myself... a 0.01%
minority. Insufficent to change the larger tide.
The most viable exceptions Ive seen, and not so uncomon at all.... are
the most talented tradesmen types..
working with the tools keeps a man fit and sharp... and ethically
sharp.
These people are self correcting out of necessity.. its not possible
to cut a pipe too short then lie or spin your way out of it...in other
occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.
they arent.
The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.
As an engineer I noticed that I do limitelssly better working with the
tools a few days a month... straight engineering disconnected me from
the actual realities of whats up.... now, as govt tightens the noose
on regulations, taxation etc (as it wastes the money and decimates
entire industries)... one must find ways to dodge those bullets as
well.
This has driven some of the nations best and brightest to the
sidelines, offshore, or into protective cocoons. No way to fund govt
from such a base. That is why one can do the math on state, local
and federal govt's budgets and notice that they are all 50% or so in
the red... that percentage documents the actual shortfall in their tax
revenues.... with these unable to raise taxes as it was over taxation
that drove this mess into the tank into the first place...now it IS in
the tank...no way to tax those who are not earning enough to operate.
That has been the result of this range of cultural issues. Those
never reverse. Not in all of recorded history, as with any plant or
animal the aging and final stages do not reverse... the organism must
die and reboot from its seed. The USA is in that mode.
***
When one considers what life is actually about...it may not about
dying with a paid off home... it may be about living long enough to
evolve and learn something, pass what you can of that on...avoiding
starvation the meantime.
If that is an accurate assessment, then the personal sacrifice is
worth it in spaces...
the benefits are in ones own insight, understanding, capability, and
gift of capability to others....
and ones own vitality and persona... are worth any and all
sacrific.. But it is not smart at
all from a material perspective...with some minor exceptions.
(decent behavior as a tradesman
will keep you working and prosperous... the oposite applies though as
an engineer or corp
cog.)
Phil scott
Demon Buddha
>> I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they murder
>> themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
>> those awash in its waters.
>
> these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
> to consider the damage
> they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
> completely corrupt..and they
> know its corrupt...
I'm thinking this may be too pat. I cannot help but suspect that the
real inner core of political manipulation are a well disciplined,
learned, trained, and CAUSE ORIENTED group. It is the cause orientation
that I wonder about.
Back when I was about 20, a conversation with my father sparked an idea
in my head. I had wondered, and still do at times, whether at some time
long ago, a well educated and wealthy man - probably a European
aristocrat, perhaps trained in the sciences, looked out from his study
atop the tower of his residence and pondered the line of human
development from antiquity to his time and saw the trends of growing
populations, ever greater "moral decay", technological advance, and
environmental stress. I then mused that he had the creative imagination
to extrapolate where it was all heading. Being who he was, he also had
his religious legacy to slot those thoughts into a context, a desire.
Imagine this man deciding that the reclamation of Eden was not only
desirable, but possible. Being wealthy and well connected with other
wealthy and influential men, he began a movement with the stated goal in
mind. He and his cadre realized that enormous power would be required
and that the greatest power in the world lay embodied in money. They
establish a foundation of finance, enabling them to branch into
political influence, then technological development, and so on.
The ultimate goal - to be so technologically endowed that the vast and
overwhelming majority of the human mob would become wholly extraneous.
Next step at that point - wipe them out, eliminate all dissenting
opinions and as a group begin the arduous task of restoring paradise.
In all this, a centrally important factor is not what is actually true,
but what people believe is true. Belief can and often does make all the
difference in the world.
Anyhow, I have at times wondered is such a scenario may be something
like the truth, past and current.
> Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
> risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
> to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
> short term interests... I even got that statement from a
> congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
> weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
> completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.
It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I have never
been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on a
seemingly perpetual basis. OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.
> That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
> last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
> I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
> kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
> the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
> its not even possible for these to make
> an ethical decision.
Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The
engineers I grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and
mechanics as well. They knew how to build the things they designed, and
all with nothing more than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe
Mark's Handbook. The machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose
hey day was the 30s and 40s - those men knew what the hell they were
doing. Most of these kids today don't know shit. They are plenty
intelligent and most mean well, but the fact is they were never taught
how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD up a part and feed it to
the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting yourself in front of a
manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't think so. The
staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all but gone -
tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while the operator
stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.
>
>
> .... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
> types... also clueless but not short of the power to
> ruin others or a project
When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in
that tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly
behind him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able
to do to stop me. He never gave me shit again, though he did manage to
get me terminated one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract. He
was the archetype of the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not
suffer them well.
>
> ...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
> of confusion,
> but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
> jobs... those will oppose
> corrective measures in most cases.
I have found that one must know when to speak and when to hold his yap.
I do nothing but contract work - I am a hired gun and because of this
I am not in full possession of the business considerations that drive a
client's decision making. Therefore, when I see something I suspect may
be fucked, I alert the client to it and let them make the choice of
whether to act on my recommendations, take a different course of action,
or do nothing. I am there to please them. I hold a fiduciary
responsibility to alert them to potential problems, but I am not there
to save them when they have no interest in being saved. I have helped
several clients avoid major catastrophes. Some have declined to heed my
alerts - some of those went on about things and some went out of
business. Those are the breaks.
>
> These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
> issues, false socialization,
> ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
> this insures
> thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
> context . But it is a fatal compromise.
Hand waving. The new American way.
>
> Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
> that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
> not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
> life and family it can easily be too high
> a price.
When at Bell, I got my balls handed to me on more occasions than I can
count. I was like that and the only thing I ever accomplished was to
get a lot of people pissed off with me. That is one reason I went into
the consulting biz - no emotional or ethical investments in the client's
outcomes. If they insist on fucking themselves, so be it, just as long
as the checks keep coming. Can't save those who don't want it.
>
>
>
> I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
> historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
> decimates its host nation.
We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least not in
my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs. Millions,
many of them, need to die. Sounds harsh, but that is the way I see it.
The world just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed sycophantic
yuppie yes-men who have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and
the titanium armored ass shield.
>
>
> ***
> actual exceptions are few... Ive met a few people at the top levels
> in business and govt who are exceptions... and have
> had some degree of influence, amid the compromises... those have all
> been a lot brigher than myself... a 0.01%
> minority. Insufficent to change the larger tide.
Yes, but one can never be too certain of outcomes. The strangest
things happen.
>
>
> The most viable exceptions Ive seen, and not so uncomon at all.... are
> the most talented tradesmen types..
> working with the tools keeps a man fit and sharp... and ethically
> sharp.
Nothing wrong with physical skills, that is for certain.
>
> These people are self correcting out of necessity.. its not possible
> to cut a pipe too short then lie or spin your way out of it...in other
> occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
> its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
> them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.
The software biz is the worst for this. Nothing is real and in almost
every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence. There
was once place I worked, out in the Arizona desert, where this was not
the case. We made and tested very scary things that will perhaps one
day kill many people and terrorize the rest. In that place,
incompetence and lies were met with immediate dismissal. The ship was
run more tightly than a vestal virgin with ironclad security and
engineering know-how that was second to none anywhere on the planet.
The technology was fascinating, but as I said, scary as fucking hell and
will probably be put to uses that nobody wants to think about too much.
> The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
> him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
> of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
> contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.
That is because it is a disease. A disease of CHOICE. Eminently
avoidable, yet so few choose to do so. Humans.
>
> This has driven some of the nations best and brightest to the
> sidelines, offshore, or into protective cocoons. No way to fund govt
> from such a base. That is why one can do the math on state, local
> and federal govt's budgets and notice that they are all 50% or so in
> the red... that percentage documents the actual shortfall in their tax
> revenues.... with these unable to raise taxes as it was over taxation
> that drove this mess into the tank into the first place...now it IS in
> the tank...no way to tax those who are not earning enough to operate.
We are doomed. I guess old age for us isn't going to be what it was
for our grandparents' generation. Perhaps it is just as well. The
thought of retiring and waiting for senility and eventually death to
come for us in thin slices is perhaps the only thing that has ever
really scared me.
>
>
> That has been the result of this range of cultural issues. Those
> never reverse. Not in all of recorded history, as with any plant or
> animal the aging and final stages do not reverse... the organism must
> die and reboot from its seed. The USA is in that mode.
So it appears. Here's an exercise in futility for you:
http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
>
>
> ***
> When one considers what life is actually about...it may not about
> dying with a paid off home... it may be about living long enough to
> evolve and learn something, pass what you can of that on...avoiding
> starvation the meantime.
The older I get, the less I know. Who'd have thought this was to be
the outcome when they were 20?
>
>
> If that is an accurate assessment, then the personal sacrifice is
> worth it in spaces...
>
> the benefits are in ones own insight, understanding, capability, and
> gift of capability to others....
One takes small miracles and blessings as they come and is thankful for
them. So much for the haughtier aspects of the American dream.
>
> and ones own vitality and persona... are worth any and all
> sacrific.. But it is not smart at
> all from a material perspective...with some minor exceptions.
> (decent behavior as a tradesman
> will keep you working and prosperous... the oposite applies though as
> an engineer or corp
> cog.)
An odd sort of symmetry in that, eh?
>
>
>
>
> Phil scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Me, again!
Demon Buddha never responded to any of my previous commentary (the most
innocent excuse might be that it never got to his server), but if anyone
else is reading, here's "my take"....
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Demon Buddha wrote:
> phil scott wrote:
>
>>> I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they
>>> murder
>>> themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
>>> those awash in its waters.
>>
>> these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
>> to consider the damage
>> they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
>> completely corrupt..and they
>> know its corrupt...
>
> I'm thinking this may be too pat. I cannot help but suspect that the
> real inner core of political manipulation are a well disciplined, learned,
> trained, and CAUSE ORIENTED group. It is the cause orientation that I wonder
> about.
>
> Back when I was about 20, a conversation with my father sparked an
> idea in my head. I had wondered, and still do at times, whether at some time
> long ago, a well educated and wealthy man
Everything in this whole paragraph ignores the real history of
megaprojects in antiquity. All the "Wonders of the world" (Seven of the
ancient world, seven more in the recent world), the pyramids, the Great
Wall, not to mention pre-Columbian cities and empires said to be larger
than the Roman Empire, all described and photographed in books not hard to
find.
- probably a European aristocrat,
> perhaps trained in the sciences, looked out from his study atop the tower of
> his residence and pondered the line of human development from antiquity to
> his time and saw the trends of growing populations, ever greater "moral
> decay", technological advance, and environmental stress. I then mused that
> he had the creative imagination to extrapolate where it was all heading.
> Being who he was, he also had his religious legacy to slot those thoughts
> into a context, a desire.
>
> Imagine this man deciding that the reclamation of Eden was not only
> desirable, but possible.
What it was was less the reclamation of Eden as the aquisition of land,
tribute, and taxes. Alexander-the-Great literally destroyed many cities
and killed most of the people in them, and most of his "empire" collapsed
shortly after he died.
Reclaimation? Better ask how long it might last after it is "reclaimed.:
Being wealthy and well connected with other wealthy
> and influential men, he began a movement with the stated goal in mind. He
> and his cadre realized that enormous power would be required and that the
> greatest power in the world lay embodied in money. They establish a
> foundation of finance, enabling them to branch into political influence, then
> technological development, and so on.
In the late 1800s, they were known as the "robber-barrons," in the 1000+
years in past European history, you had guild power (quite a lot of it, by
the way) and govt granted monopolies (quite a lot of them, too, if you read
economic history) obtained when a rich person gave the king a pile of money
in exchange for the charter granting the monopoly.
> The ultimate goal - to be so technologically endowed that the vast
> and overwhelming majority of the human mob would become wholly extraneous.
Only in a futuristic world where "terminator" robots (self replicating and
self repairing) become practical that the human mob would become extraneous.
And, then you'd have the rise of machines.
> Next step at that point - wipe them out, eliminate all dissenting opinions
> and as a group begin the arduous task of restoring paradise.
? You call paradise something that is really totalitarianism?
> In all this, a centrally important factor is not what is actually
> true, but what people believe is true.
This has always been the case.
Belief can and often does make all
> the difference in the world.
All dependant on which side of the argument you stand on.
> Anyhow, I have at times wondered is such a scenario may be something
> like the truth, past and current.
You forgot to mention "interferences" such as corruption and many other
factors. Another factor is the limited lifetimes of all empires.
>> Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
>> risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
>> to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
>> short term interests... I even got that statement from a
>> congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
>> weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
>> completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.
>
> It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I have never
> been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on a seemingly
> perpetual basis.
Fear about what?
> OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.
You would have to explain this further.
>> That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
>> last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
>> I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
>> kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
>> the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
>> its not even possible for these to make
>> an ethical decision.
>
> Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
> this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The engineers I
> grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and mechanics as well.
> They knew how to build the things they designed, and all with nothing more
> than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe Mark's Handbook. The
> machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose hey day was the 30s and 40s
> - those men knew what the hell they were doing. Most of these kids today
> don't know shit. They are plenty intelligent and most mean well, but the
> fact is they were never taught how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD
> up a part and feed it to the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting
> yourself in front of a manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't
> think so. The staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all
> but gone - tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while the
> operator stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.
This is a result of several processes. One is that the "nuts and bolts" of
manufacturing is now centered in China and Pacific Rim. Second, the trend
towards cellphones, calculators, computer games, facebook-myspace and mass
marketing/advertising, and dumbed-down TV program material/educational
programs has led to a less well educated population that cannot think
critically or critically analyze very much.
>>
>> .... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
>> types... also clueless but not short of the power to
>> ruin others or a project
>
> When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
> front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
> straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in that
> tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly behind
> him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able to do to stop
> me. He never gave me shit again,
Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.
though he did manage to get me terminated
> one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract.
I would be looking for a way to deliver payback.
He was the archetype of
> the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not suffer them well.
There are a lot of people in power who have very serious ego problems.
>> ...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
>> of confusion,
>> but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
>> jobs... those will oppose
>> corrective measures in most cases.
>
> I have found that one must know when to speak and when to hold his
> yap.
Smiles and dumb looks can also be helpful when the payoff is not worth the
hassle.
I do nothing but contract work - I am a hired gun and because of this I
> am not in full possession of the business considerations that drive a
> client's decision making. Therefore, when I see something I suspect may be
> fucked, I alert the client to it and let them make the choice of whether to
> act on my recommendations, take a different course of action, or do nothing.
> I am there to please them. I hold a fiduciary responsibility to alert them
> to potential problems, but I am not there to save them when they have no
> interest in being saved. I have helped several clients avoid major
> catastrophes. Some have declined to heed my alerts - some of those went on
> about things and some went out of business. Those are the breaks.
You might have more leverage on them if you made them sign a statement as
an appendix to your contract that you are advising them with an informed
decision and that you can't be held responsible for not warning them
(something along those lines) to CYA (i.e. they can't say later that the
consultant didn't tell us about this problem).
>> These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
>> issues, false socialization,
>> ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
>> this insures
>> thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
>> context . But it is a fatal compromise.
>
> Hand waving. The new American way.
>>
>> Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
>> that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
>> not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
>> life and family it can easily be too high
>> a price.
>
> When at Bell, I got my balls handed to me on more occasions than I
> can count. I was like that and the only thing I ever accomplished was to get
> a lot of people pissed off with me. That is one reason I went into the
> consulting biz - no emotional or ethical investments in the client's
> outcomes. If they insist on fucking themselves, so be it, just as long as
> the checks keep coming. Can't save those who don't want it.
An anecdote.
>>
>>
>> I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
>> historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
>> decimates its host nation.
>
> We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least not
> in my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs. Millions, many
> of them, need to die.
And, what is the reason for this need?
Sounds harsh, but that is the way I see it. The world
> just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed sycophantic yuppie yes-men who
> have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and the titanium armored
> ass shield.
I think you need to apply your flame-thrower at the financial industry
where the idea there is how to make a ton of money without doing any real
work. Instead, they created, in recent years a WMD (viz. the Great
Recession we're in now).
>> occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
>> its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
>> them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.
>
> The software biz is the worst for this. Nothing is real
Oh, its real. Windows 7 is out, OS-X has been out for a while.
and in
> almost every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence.
The problems are the large systems put into place that never meet their
specs, and all kinds of other risks (there is a newsgroup devoted to
this).
> There was once place I worked, out in the Arizona desert, where this was not
> the case. We made and tested very scary things that will perhaps one day
> kill many people and terrorize the rest. In that place, incompetence and
> lies were met with immediate dismissal. The ship was run more tightly than a
> vestal virgin with ironclad security and engineering know-how that was second
> to none anywhere on the planet. The technology was fascinating, but as I
> said, scary as fucking hell and will probably be put to uses that nobody
> wants to think about too much.
>
>> The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
>> him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
>> of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
>> contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.
>
> That is because it is a disease. A disease of CHOICE. Eminently
> avoidable, yet so few choose to do so. Humans.
>
>>
>> This has driven some of the nations best and brightest to the
>> sidelines, offshore, or into protective cocoons. No way to fund govt
>> from such a base. That is why one can do the math on state, local
>> and federal govt's budgets and notice that they are all 50% or so in
>> the red... that percentage documents the actual shortfall in their tax
>> revenues.... with these unable to raise taxes as it was over taxation
>> that drove this mess into the tank into the first place...now it IS in
>> the tank...no way to tax those who are not earning enough to operate.
>
> We are doomed.
Maybe. Maybe not. I can come up with a separate argument for both
scenarios.
I guess old age for us isn't going to be what it was
> for our grandparents' generation. Perhaps it is just as well. The thought
> of retiring and waiting for senility and eventually death to come for us in
> thin slices is perhaps the only thing that has ever really scared me.
You'll get your chance someday, and then you might find that you think
quite a bit differently about it.
>>
>> That has been the result of this range of cultural issues. Those
>> never reverse. Not in all of recorded history, as with any plant or
>> animal the aging and final stages do not reverse... the organism must
>> die and reboot from its seed. The USA is in that mode.
>
> So it appears. Here's an exercise in futility for you:
>
> http://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> ***
>> When one considers what life is actually about...it may not about
>> dying with a paid off home... it may be about living long enough to
>> evolve and learn something, pass what you can of that on...avoiding
>> starvation the meantime.
>
> The older I get, the less I know.
Maybe in proportion to what you discover that there is more knowledge than
you thought, or that you were less wise when you were younger.
Who'd have thought this was to be
> the outcome when they were 20?
All depends on who you ask.
>>
>> If that is an accurate assessment, then the personal sacrifice is
>> worth it in spaces...
>>
>> the benefits are in ones own insight, understanding, capability, and
>> gift of capability to others....
>
> One takes small miracles and blessings as they come and is thankful
> for them. So much for the haughtier aspects of the American dream.
Forget the American dream and watch the Chinese dream.
We're past history now.
Demon Buddha
> Everything in this whole paragraph ignores the real history of
> megaprojects in antiquity.
You appear to have taken my meanings wrongly. No big deal.
>> It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I have
>> never been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on
>> a seemingly perpetual basis.
>
> Fear about what?
Doing what is right vis-a-vis what is expedient to one's vested
personal interests.
>
>> OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.
>
> You would have to explain this further.
Having once been a sternly principled sort, I got into a lot of trouble
when I would point out the folly of certain management decisions as they
related to projects on which I worked. Slick sounding stupidity is most
often preferable to mundanely sound proceedings. Humans.
>>
>> Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame.
>> All this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The
>> engineers I grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and
>> mechanics as well. They knew how to build the things they designed,
>> and all with nothing more than a drawing board, a slide rule, and
>> maybe Mark's Handbook. The machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers
>> whose hey day was the 30s and 40s - those men knew what the hell they
>> were doing. Most of these kids today don't know shit. They are
>> plenty intelligent and most mean well, but the fact is they were never
>> taught how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD up a part and feed
>> it to the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting yourself in
>> front of a manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't think
>> so. The staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all
>> but gone - tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while
>> the operator stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.
>
> This is a result of several processes. One is that the "nuts and bolts"
> of manufacturing is now centered in China and Pacific Rim. Second, the
> trend towards cellphones, calculators, computer games, facebook-myspace
> and mass marketing/advertising, and dumbed-down TV program
> material/educational programs has led to a less well educated population
> that cannot think critically or critically analyze very much.
Agreed.
>> When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
>> front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
>> straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me
>> in that tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window
>> directly behind him and that there would be absolutely nothing he
>> would be able to do to stop me. He never gave me shit again,
>
> Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.
True. That was one of those times. I don't resort to such things
unless someone is really gone off the wall. He'd gone off the wall and
damned near went through it. :)
>
> though he did manage to get me terminated
>> one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract.
>
> I would be looking for a way to deliver payback.
Hell no. If I'd wanted to hurt him, he'd have been hurt. Turned out
that about a year later one of my colleagues on the project alerted me
that this Mr. Nance (his real name) called up one of the managers at the
client asking him for a *job*. Deloitte had caught on to his game and
fired him. He was having a horrific time getting hired. IT is a very
small world - bad reputations can travel quickly. He screwed himself in
the end. No action needed on my part.
>
> He was the archetype of
>> the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not suffer them well.
>
> There are a lot of people in power who have very serious ego problems.
It is the nature of many who seek power.
> You might have more leverage on them if you made them sign a statement
> as an appendix to your contract that you are advising them with an
> informed decision and that you can't be held responsible for not warning
> them (something along those lines) to CYA (i.e. they can't say later
> that the consultant didn't tell us about this problem).
No competent client would ever sign such a thing. They hire the likes
of us in part to have someone to blame when their choices turn to shit.
Nature of the game. One client demanded I have an "errors and
omissions" policy. I told them where to shove the engagement. The
policy, for one thing, was going to cost me $100K/yr. I also noted that
up until that time, no claim ever made on an E&O policy had ever been
paid on. So many loopholes, the ins. companies are simply taking your
money with ZERO risk of ever having to pay out. E&O is a major scam.
>> We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least
>> not in my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs.
>> Millions, many of them, need to die.
>
> And, what is the reason for this need?
Because people refuse to see some of the basic truths of life. They
prefer to play along with the shiny, glittery world of smoke and
mirrors. They shun work in favor of extraneous convenience. They
praise and depend on high level technological living, which hangs by the
merest threads. If for some reason, for example, oil became truly
scarce, as in NO driving possible, the vast majority of Americans would
be dead within 8 weeks. They would not be able to get to work - food
sources would dry up in no time and nary a sub/urbanite would have the
first clue as to how to get from one day to the next.
>
> Sounds harsh, but that is the way I see it. The world
>> just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed sycophantic yuppie
>> yes-men who have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and the
>> titanium armored ass shield.
>
> I think you need to apply your flame-thrower at the financial industry
> where the idea there is how to make a ton of money without doing any
> real work. Instead, they created, in recent years a WMD (viz. the Great
> Recession we're in now).
Can't put all the blame on them. We are at least equally responsible,
though I contend we are even more so. Had we, the "people", not allowed
ourselves to be politically and intellectually lazy for no better reason
than mere convenience, the financial world as it exists today could
never have come into existence. WE are to blame, more than anyone.
People are people - many of them are dishonest little weasels who, if
you give them half a chance, will steal you blind - yet we sat back and
allowed, for example, the Federal Reserve Act to pass. Wilson, the good
senator, Paul Warburg, and all the other boys from Jekyll Island should
have been rounded up and shot for treason - very publicly I might add as
a message to anyone else entertaining cute ideas. But we didn't. Too
busy with other things - and those were days when Americans were
comparatively clued-in. Today? I think if a serious disruption of the
economy occurs such that basics will no longer be available, people will
die by the millions. They simply do not possess the most basic
knowledge of how to get daily things done without the aid of commodities
and products that have been manufactured and processed by someone else.
How many people do you think know how to raise chickens? How many
know about the diseases that wipe them out in short order? That's just
one of hundreds of small skills that most people in the USA are wholly
clueless about. Food, shelter, heat, defense - the basics. A huge
proportion of people know nothing beyond "toss it the microwave on high
for 2 minutes". Not a good foundation for survival in the event of a
real disruption.
> and in
>> almost every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence.
>
> The problems are the large systems put into place that never meet their
> specs, and all kinds of other risks (there is a newsgroup devoted to this).
There is FAR more to it than that, I am afraid.
>> We are doomed.
>
> Maybe. Maybe not. I can come up with a separate argument for both
> scenarios.
I meant to say "probably doomed". My error.
phil scott
> phil scott wrote:
> >> I seriously wonder whether those at the top are aware that they murder
> >> themselves along with their hosts. Hubris has that quality of blinding
> >> those awash in its waters.
>
> > these are 100% unaware of the real damage they do, in fact most seem
> > to consider the damage
> > they do a good thing, proof of their prowess etc...even when its
> > completely corrupt..and they
> > know its corrupt...
>
> I'm thinking this may be too pat. I cannot help but suspect that the
> real inner core of political manipulation are a well disciplined,
> learned, trained, and CAUSE ORIENTED group. It is the cause orientation
> that I wonder about.
there are some exceedingly bright cause oriented groups... some
corrupt some not... at the very top. the B'bergers for
instance who invite many US leaders, some brilliant some not... the
agenda not entirely insane.. they'd like to precluded over populating
the planet by various strategies... and it appears wouldnt mind
starving out a few billion of us morons to do it... it will happen
regardless, its comon to all biological systems,
My remarks however were aimed at the bulk of corporate upper middle,
middle and lower level management....and the nature of the corporate
structure itself, a soulless bottom line entity that opposes human
interests in the final analysis if unchecked... when it takes over
govt
>
> Back when I was about 20, a conversation with my father sparked an idea
> in my head. I had wondered, and still do at times, whether at some time
> long ago, a well educated and wealthy man - probably a European
> aristocrat, perhaps trained in the sciences, looked out from his study
> atop the tower of his residence and pondered the line of human
> development from antiquity to his time and saw the trends of growing
> populations, ever greater "moral decay", technological advance, and
> environmental stress. I then mused that he had the creative imagination
> to extrapolate where it was all heading. Being who he was, he also had
> his religious legacy to slot those thoughts into a context, a desire.
there have been more than a few on that path...
>
> Imagine this man deciding that the reclamation of Eden was not only
> desirable, but possible. Being wealthy and well connected with other
> wealthy and influential men, he began a movement with the stated goal in
> mind. He and his cadre realized that enormous power would be required
> and that the greatest power in the world lay embodied in money. They
> establish a foundation of finance, enabling them to branch into
> political influence, then technological development, and so on.
you are aluding to the german jewelry merchants of a century or so
past perhaps.... but yes... those too
being human and having now attained great power and almost limitelss
wealth not to mention some world
class winery holdings... tend to corruption.. it seems... even as
perhaps a plan is a foot to restore the seas and lands
to eden and a population that won't eat all the apples.
Is it a bad plan? My view, the end result is inevitable... these
perhaps would like to see a few survivors... themselves first of
course... and I know these to the core, their very core....these end
badly, the seed is dark and solid.. entirely material.. there is no
joy in that quarter.
>
> The ultimate goal - to be so technologically endowed that the vast and
> overwhelming majority of the human mob would become wholly extraneous.
> Next step at that point - wipe them out, eliminate all dissenting
> opinions and as a group begin the arduous task of restoring paradise.
you have defined the current threshold...
>
> In all this, a centrally important factor is not what is actually true,
> but what people believe is true. Belief can and often does make all the
> difference in the world.
>
> Anyhow, I have at times wondered is such a scenario may be something
> like the truth, past and current.
I wouldnt use the word 'truth'... I would agree it very well may be
an actuality... actuality as
differed from the more esoteric meaning of the other term... in the
words of Lao Tsu 'if it can be put into words its
not on the path'.. now Ive 'seen that... leaves one in stunned awe.
>
> > Ive had many many people say to me 'Why do you put your career at
> > risk this way...whats in it for YOU'... completely unable
> > to fathom that anyone would have any other concern than for their own
> > short term interests... I even got that statement from a
> > congressman when I was testifying before their committee (on nuclear
> > weapons plant issues).. and they ask this increadulously.
> > completely unable even fathom that a person would do the right thing.
>
.> It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I
have never
> been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on a
> seemingly perpetual basis. OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.
salute :)
>
> > That has been my experrience at least.. diverse industries and govt
> > last 30 years on projects in dozens of states.
> > I don't see exceptions... this is a cultural mess... educated into our
> > kids these days it seems.... dumbed down so that
> > the engineering / viability issues are not even seen by them...so that
> > its not even possible for these to make
> > an ethical decision.
>
> Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
> this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The
> engineers I grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and
> mechanics as well. They knew how to build the things they designed, and
> all with nothing more than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe
> Mark's Handbook. The machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose
> hey day was the 30s and 40s - those men knew what the hell they were
> doing. Most of these kids today don't know shit. They are plenty
> intelligent and most mean well, but the fact is they were never taught
> how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD up a part and feed it to
> the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting yourself in front of a
> manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't think so. The
> staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all but gone -
> tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while the operator
> stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.
I call this the 'hard won advance, instantaneous loss' curve... it
took generations to attain
our competence pinacles... and in science, at the highest levels,
Maxwell is still seen to be in prediction of
present day findings,, he lived in the 1800's... Industrially on a
personal basis we had the Wright brothers who
designed and hand built with crude machines the first large air craft
engine (worth a search it is advanced even by
todays standards in many of its aspects)...
***
we may be apporaching the Borg / death star phase of human
advance...which will dominate the material aspects of our existence
until
a few generations of obone's and yoda come along... living in
caves...and handing their light sabers off to men who know how to
place a photo torpedo effectively....these will always be in a
miniscule, almost invisible minority however...none would trade a
micro second of their hard fought existence for power, dominance or
control of an enentitled emperor.
If you havent seen it 'The Last Samurai' is superb on this range of
issues... especially the closing scenes featuring the well oiled
gattling guns, cherry blossoms and blood running. Then you see what
matters and who is who in the actuality of Life.
>
>
>
> > .... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
> > types... also clueless but not short of the power to
> > ruin others or a project
>
> When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
> front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
> straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in
> that tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly
> behind him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able
> to do to stop me. He never gave me shit again, though he did manage to
> get me terminated one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract. He
> was the archetype of the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not
> suffer them well.
I document, then take it to their management (who ignores) but that
creates the paper trail, then I take it
to their co president, > board of directors > documenting more and
more fraud as times goes on with
names, dates, copied and logged memo's...then to stock the press and
the holders meeting
so far Ive only had to as far as the company president with mention of
what the real deal is and (witholding a few bits of course).
It is the publcity via the press that their attorneys fail to
consider, they know they can beat or out last you in court, they have
no clue the damage bad publicity can do them...hhese think they can
scare you... they do not see the leverage issues, for
instance the worst they can do to an individual is get him murdered...
the most the individual can do is bankrupt the company and get is
officers thown into prison. they miss that.
>
>
>
> > ...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
> > of confusion,
> > but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
> > jobs... those will oppose
> > corrective measures in most cases.
>
> I have found that one must know when to speak and when to hold his yap.
> I do nothing but contract work - I am a hired gun and because of this
> I am not in full possession of the business considerations that drive a
> client's decision making. Therefore, when I see something I suspect may
> be fucked, I alert the client to it and let them make the choice of
> whether to act on my recommendations, take a different course of action,
> or do nothing. I am there to please them. I hold a fiduciary
> responsibility to alert them to potential problems, but I am not there
> to save them when they have no interest in being saved. I have helped
> several clients avoid major catastrophes. Some have declined to heed my
> alerts - some of those went on about things and some went out of
> business. Those are the breaks.
your view is rational on many levels... I operate on some other level
though...something like flat tracking
.. you never know how much skill, gonads, grace under fire, finese
with the throttle etc... you have developed until you can pass first
place man in a turn sliding sideways at 130 mph... then you find
out. .. and the trophy babe pats you on the ass on the podium.
also I observed the decline of most men...not all but ...most... a key
driver was was their tacit agreement with idiocy or
bogus situations, and going along with it.... it actually influences
their genetics... did you know that? genetics is live, on going,
if daddy is forced or agrees to cater to morons ... his son will, and
both will rationalize the errors and end up adopting them or at least
suffering from loss of intellectual function. (created by cognitive
dissonance of rationalizing the ongoing disaster and ones own
duplicity)
Does the culture reward guys like me? hahahahaha... not hardly,,
is it rewarding oherwise .. oh yes.. for me, my life, because of all
the truly nasty ass travails has been rewarding beyond all limits, the
insights gained far beyond what can be put into words... its what I
came here to do apparently... others came to breed, or run prisons, or
bake bread... and thats all fine.
but me...Id much rather stand to face the gatling gun fire, any
day... at close range... so the gunner can see the whites of my
eyes... and for the exact same reasons depicted in the various films
mentioned
Its a funny thing, really funny, makes no rational sense, but in my
life its been me who is still standing through all this, the oposing
attorneys? and companies? dead or collapsed. I did nothing but stand
there. Medical doctors who ridiculed my use of various health
measures, dead now, their patients dead... I was still flat tracking
and chasing off red heads at age 67 (I will be 69 shortly, I quit,
Im not a *complete* idiot)
>
> > These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
> > issues, false socialization,
> > ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
> > this insures
> > thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
> > context . But it is a fatal compromise.
>
> Hand waving. The new American way.
its the New America in Collapse way... those of us who hang in there
without compromise will learn a lot if not always
prosper. those who hang in there and *compromise will prosper
financially ... but in no other way.. imo,
>
>
>
> > Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
> > that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
> > not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
> > life and family it can easily be too high
> > a price.
>
> When at Bell, I got my balls handed to me on more occasions than I can
> count. I was like that and the only thing I ever accomplished was to
> get a lot of people pissed off with me.
You missed a crucial and key point here,,, IF you had compromised
then, you would
not be the broadly capable person you are today.. and that goes beyond
your skill sets
to all other aspects of your life
If you had been forceful to the limit then in the face of the worst
jerks you would have
benefited in direct proportion,,, not financially but in all other
aspects of Life
>That is one reason I went into
> the consulting biz - no emotional or ethical investments in the client's
> outcomes. If they insist on fucking themselves, so be it, just as long
> as the checks keep coming. Can't save those who don't want it.
I agree, I dont try to save them these days either, I just tell
them what I can
do for them, then do it... if they try to sabatage that i cut their
balls off.
>
>
>
> > I see the current situation as having exceeded critical mass...
> > historically with no exceptions in the last few thousand years, it
> > decimates its host nation.
>
> We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least not in
> my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs. Millions,
> many of them, need to die. Sounds harsh, but that is the way I see it.
***> The world just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed
sycophantic
> yuppie yes-men who have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and
> the titanium armored ass shield.***
:) superbly executed analysis
>
>
>
> > ***
> > actual exceptions are few... Ive met a few people at the top levels
> > in business and govt who are exceptions... and have
> > had some degree of influence, amid the compromises... those have all
> > been a lot brigher than myself... a 0.01%
> > minority. Insufficent to change the larger tide.
>
> Yes, but one can never be too certain of outcomes. The strangest
> things happen.
correct
>
>
>
> > The most viable exceptions Ive seen, and not so uncomon at all.... are
> > the most talented tradesmen types..
> > working with the tools keeps a man fit and sharp... and ethically
> > sharp.
>
> Nothing wrong with physical skills, that is for certain.
I knew this in 1995, brain function declines in people who do not do
physical work as well.
now its main line science... if you are not fixing your own lawnmower
etc,,, I
recommend it.. fix your own car too... it pays huge personal
dividends.
Id recommend that to anyone... or volunteer building houses etc, you
will become even
more rational at light speed
>
>
>
> > These people are self correcting out of necessity.. its not possible
> > to cut a pipe too short then lie or spin your way out of it...in other
> > occupations lying seems to be the acceptable norm... lying corrupts
> > its host...even ruins their own health, and that of those around
> > them...who consider such gross debilitations natural.
>
> The software biz is the worst for this. Nothing is real and in almost
> every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence. There
> was once place I worked, out in the Arizona desert, where this was not
> the case. We made and tested very scary things that will perhaps one
> day kill many people and terrorize the rest. In that place,
> incompetence and lies were met with immediate dismissal. The ship was
> run more tightly than a vestal virgin with ironclad security and
> engineering know-how that was second to none anywhere on the planet.
> The technology was fascinating, but as I said, scary as fucking hell and
> will probably be put to uses that nobody wants to think about too much.
you are fortunate indeed to have been there... a total
understatement.
The powers that be however will
attempt to use those developments to their own selfish interests and
ruin..
those who speak up will be
silenced, ..
.however.. and on that front.. and along the lines of Dr Delgado's
research..mind numbing
repercussions are now understood to be at hand by some of these same
people....that will preclude perhaps
some of the darker side applications.... that insight is tightly
limitied though, most I know anywhere near that
quarter think its all baloney... very interesting people though, with
great stories.
Phil scott
>
> > The person who lies finds reason for his lies..that programming sends
> > him south across the larger spectrum...generates an unfathomable world
> > of spin and confusion, the resulting stress ruins the person...and its
> > contageous to his kiddies, family and the rest of the company.
>
> That is because it is a disease. A disease of CHOICE. Eminently
> avoidable, yet so few choose to do so. Humans.
>
>
>
>
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Me, again!
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Demon Buddha wrote:
> Me, again! wrote:
>
>> Everything in this whole paragraph ignores the real history of megaprojects
>> in antiquity.
>
> You appear to have taken my meanings wrongly. No big deal.
You are welcome to explain, if you want, what your rightly meanings were.
>>> It is something to behold, is it not? In this respect, I have never
>>> been able to relate to the fear that people seem to live with on a
>>> seemingly perpetual basis.
>>
>> Fear about what?
>
> Doing what is right vis-a-vis what is expedient to one's vested
> personal interests.
In my personal experience, all my life, I sense very few people who have
trouble (or "fear" as the word you used) with this dichotomy.
>>
>>> OTOH, they never get into trouble, whereas I do.
>>
>> You would have to explain this further.
>
> Having once been a sternly principled sort, I got into a lot of
> trouble when I would point out the folly of certain management decisions as
> they related to projects on which I worked. Slick sounding stupidity is most
> often preferable to mundanely sound proceedings. Humans.
As a matter of (me) learning about life (usually the hard way when I was
younger), I developed a keen sense of when to keep my mouth shut and give
"dumb looks" at the appropriate moments. As I got older, the question was
deciding if there was a wise person present with enough power to alter an
unwise decision, or else get the hell outta Dodge, ASAP, before the sky
would fall on everyone.
>
>>>
>>> Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
>>> this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The engineers
>>> I grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and mechanics as
>>> well. They knew how to build the things they designed, and all with
>>> nothing more than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe Mark's
>>> Handbook. The machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose hey day
>>> was the 30s and 40s - those men knew what the hell they were doing. Most
>>> of these kids today don't know shit. They are plenty intelligent and most
>>> mean well, but the fact is they were never taught how to do anything REAL.
>>> Oh look, I can CAD up a part and feed it to the CNC... big fucking deal.
>>> How about putting yourself in front of a manual machine and making the
>>> part yourself? Didn't think so. The staggering wealth of knowledge that
>>> was once America's is all but gone - tossed away in favor of machines that
>>> do all the work while the operator stands by and pees in his shorts from
>>> boredom.
>>
>> This is a result of several processes. One is that the "nuts and bolts" of
>> manufacturing is now centered in China and Pacific Rim. Second, the trend
>> towards cellphones, calculators, computer games, facebook-myspace and mass
>> marketing/advertising, and dumbed-down TV program material/educational
>> programs has led to a less well educated population that cannot think
>> critically or critically analyze very much.
>
> Agreed.
Thank you.
>
>>> When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
>>> front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
>>> straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in
>>> that tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly
>>> behind him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able to
>>> do to stop me. He never gave me shit again,
>>
>> Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.
>
> True. That was one of those times. I don't resort to such things
> unless someone is really gone off the wall. He'd gone off the wall and
> damned near went through it. :)
I've been there, done that, too.
>> though he did manage to get me terminated
>>> one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract.
>>
>> I would be looking for a way to deliver payback.
>
> Hell no. If I'd wanted to hurt him, he'd have been hurt. Turned out
> that about a year later one of my colleagues on the project alerted me that
> this Mr. Nance (his real name) called up one of the managers at the client
> asking him for a *job*. Deloitte had caught on to his game and fired him.
> He was having a horrific time getting hired. IT is a very small world - bad
> reputations can travel quickly. He screwed himself in the end. No action
> needed on my part.
Sometimes....justice is served.
>> He was the archetype of
>>> the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not suffer them well.
>>
>> There are a lot of people in power who have very serious ego problems.
>
> It is the nature of many who seek power.
Some people have the ego problems before they seek power, some people's
ego becomes pathological AFTER they get power.
>> You might have more leverage on them if you made them sign a statement as
>> an appendix to your contract that you are advising them with an informed
>> decision and that you can't be held responsible for not warning them
>> (something along those lines) to CYA (i.e. they can't say later that the
>> consultant didn't tell us about this problem).
>
> No competent client would ever sign such a thing. They hire the
> likes of us in part to have someone to blame when their choices turn to shit.
I have heard of clients actually suing their consultants over bad advice.
This is why you really need a "release". You should read what I wrote,
above, again. I could have written it more carefully.
Yes, I know that consultants are often hired to make decisions that the
local management wants a scapegoat for. But, if you want to be a whore,
that is your business. If your reputation is good and you are confident of
your advice against something, then get that part in your contracts or
else their loose gossip talk about you will defame you along the secondary
grapevines out there.
> Nature of the game. One client demanded I have an "errors and omissions"
> policy. I told them where to shove the engagement. The policy, for one
> thing, was going to cost me $100K/yr.
You should demand that THEY pay for that insurance. Lots of corporations
pay for D&O insurance for their own executives.
> I also noted that up until that time,
> no claim ever made on an E&O policy had ever been paid on. So many
> loopholes, the ins. companies are simply taking your money with ZERO risk of
> ever having to pay out. E&O is a major scam.
So are lawyers.
>>> We are pretty well decimated. Recovery is not likely, at least not in
>>> my lifetime. A good hard crash is what this nation needs. Millions, many
>>> of them, need to die.
>>
>> And, what is the reason for this need?
>
> Because people refuse to see some of the basic truths of life. They
> prefer to play along with the shiny, glittery world of smoke and mirrors.
> They shun work in favor of extraneous convenience. They praise and depend on
> high level technological living, which hangs by the merest threads. If for
> some reason, for example, oil became truly scarce, as in NO driving possible,
> the vast majority of Americans would be dead within 8 weeks. They would not
> be able to get to work - food sources would dry up in no time and nary a
> sub/urbanite would have the first clue as to how to get from one day to the
> next.
I think this is a problem that has always been present among people, and
will be with people for eons into the future.
Although I sympathize with your sentiments, what will come out of it is
just widespread suffering, pain, and deaths.
Unless I misunderstand what you are asking for.
I just can't wish for a lot of death as you seem to be advocating.
Well, I can appreciate _some_ of your sentiments, above, but I think the
practical situation is that what we have now is what we're going to have
unless the human race becomes extinct somehow. Too far in the future
anyway, and I won't bet on any particular outcome. We will either evolve,
or become extinct.
>> and in
>>> almost every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence.
>>
>> The problems are the large systems put into place that never meet their
>> specs, and all kinds of other risks (there is a newsgroup devoted to this).
>
> There is FAR more to it than that, I am afraid.
I only gave one sentences worth of a description.
>>> We are doomed.
>>
>> Maybe. Maybe not. I can come up with a separate argument for both
>> scenarios.
>
> I meant to say "probably doomed". My error.
See, I'm not perfect, either.
Demon Buddha
> there are some exceedingly bright cause oriented groups... some
I didn't mean to disparage. Cause orientation can be very problematic
when it is inimical to one's continued ability to breathe.
> corrupt some not... at the very top. the B'bergers for
> instance who invite many US leaders, some brilliant some not... the
> agenda not entirely insane.. they'd like to precluded over populating
> the planet by various strategies... and it appears wouldnt mind
> starving out a few billion of us morons to do it... it will happen
> regardless, its comon to all biological systems,
In this, I cannot really blame them - assuming the beliefs they hold on
the carrying capacity of the planet are true, which they eventually must
be if we keep making more.
> My remarks however were aimed at the bulk of corporate upper middle,
> middle and lower level management....and the nature of the corporate
> structure itself, a soulless bottom line entity that opposes human
> interests in the final analysis if unchecked... when it takes over
> govt
The large corporate structure I would amend that to read. There are...
or at least used to be a whole lot of really good corporations our
there. The few giants did 90% of the damage, IMO.
>> Imagine this man deciding that the reclamation of Eden was not only
>> desirable, but possible. Being wealthy and well connected with other
>> wealthy and influential men, he began a movement with the stated goal in
>> mind. He and his cadre realized that enormous power would be required
>> and that the greatest power in the world lay embodied in money. They
>> establish a foundation of finance, enabling them to branch into
>> political influence, then technological development, and so on.
>
> you are aluding to the german jewelry merchants of a century or so
> past perhaps.... but yes... those too
I hadn't been when this notion first crossed my mind. I knew nothing
when I was 20.
> being human and having now attained great power and almost limitelss
> wealth not to mention some world
> class winery holdings... tend to corruption.. it seems... even as
> perhaps a plan is a foot to restore the seas and lands
> to eden and a population that won't eat all the apples.
>
> Is it a bad plan? My view, the end result is inevitable... these
You and my dad would probably get along.
> perhaps would like to see a few survivors... themselves first of
> course... and I know these to the core, their very core....these end
> badly, the seed is dark and solid.. entirely material.. there is no
> joy in that quarter.
you mean materialistic? Pardon my thickitude.
> you have defined the current threshold...
That is what I am afraid of.
> I wouldnt use the word 'truth'... I would agree it very well may be
> an actuality... actuality as
> differed from the more esoteric meaning of the other term... in the
> words of Lao Tsu 'if it can be put into words its
> not on the path'.. now Ive 'seen that... leaves one in stunned awe.
Been there since I was 8. An interesting space, though it can wear you
out at times because it always presses you.
>> Most of what passes for engineering these days is kind of lame. All
>> this dependence on computers is, IMO, insanely ridiculous. The
>> engineers I grew up around - jesus... what intellects they were, and
>> mechanics as well. They knew how to build the things they designed, and
>> all with nothing more than a drawing board, a slide rule, and maybe
>> Mark's Handbook. The machinists, T&D men, and instrument makers whose
>> hey day was the 30s and 40s - those men knew what the hell they were
>> doing. Most of these kids today don't know shit. They are plenty
>> intelligent and most mean well, but the fact is they were never taught
>> how to do anything REAL. Oh look, I can CAD up a part and feed it to
>> the CNC... big fucking deal. How about putting yourself in front of a
>> manual machine and making the part yourself? Didn't think so. The
>> staggering wealth of knowledge that was once America's is all but gone -
>> tossed away in favor of machines that do all the work while the operator
>> stands by and pees in his shorts from boredom.
>
> I call this the 'hard won advance, instantaneous loss' curve...
It's what I call a catalyzed mass-entropic reaction. The evil seed is
planted and POW... the whole shebang turns to shit in no time.
Welcome to shit.
> it
> took generations to attain
> our competence pinacles... and in science, at the highest levels,
> Maxwell is still seen to be in prediction of
> present day findings,, he lived in the 1800's... Industrially on a
> personal basis we had the Wright brothers who
> designed and hand built with crude machines the first large air craft
> engine (worth a search it is advanced even by
> todays standards in many of its aspects)...
>
> ***
> we may be apporaching the Borg / death star phase of human
> advance...which will dominate the material aspects of our existence
> until
> a few generations of obone's and yoda come along... living in
> caves...and handing their light sabers off to men who know how to
> place a photo torpedo effectively....these will always be in a
> miniscule, almost invisible minority however...none would trade a
> micro second of their hard fought existence for power, dominance or
> control of an enentitled emperor.
This I can relate to. Principles are good things to live by. Courage
and independence are perhaps even better.
>
> If you havent seen it 'The Last Samurai' is superb on this range of
> issues... especially the closing scenes featuring the well oiled
> gattling guns, cherry blossoms and blood running. Then you see what
> matters and who is who in the actuality of Life.
Seen it. I despise Tom Cruise, but he did a very good job there. I
grew up in the Japanese martial arts - the whole bujutsu thing. It once
struck me that as ant-like as the Bushi were in many ways, in others
they respected the individual far more than we do. There was generally
no fucking around with those people. Courtesies and general respect
were not an option, unless one wanted to find themselves in a duel in
which one, at most, would walk away alive. If someone would have been
disrespectful to me in those days and in that place, I would have been
within my rights to kill them. To Americans this seems incomprehensibly
barbaric, but it actually is not. It is more civil than we are, and by
a *very* broad margin. For them, respect was an absolute that *nobody*
had a right to be casual about. Not even one's liege lord. Even they
had limits on what they could say and do. He could order you to kill
yourself, but he was not at liberty to insult you. Very interesting
people with principles I admire greatly. The only "high" civilization I
can think of for which I have any real affection. Tribal groups have my
respect as well. They, too, held the individual supreme, yet there was
strong cooperation. A little respect goes a long way.
>>
>>
>>> .... just below the top layer are middle management sychophant
>>> types... also clueless but not short of the power to
>>> ruin others or a project
>> When I was in Vancouver, a manager from Deloitte got in my face in
>> front of MY people and became very unprofessional with me. I told him
>> straight up and in front of my boys that if he ever dared speak to me in
>> that tone and manner again, I would pass him through the window directly
>> behind him and that there would be absolutely nothing he would be able
>> to do to stop me. He never gave me shit again, though he did manage to
>> get me terminated one week prior to the normal lapse of my contract. He
>> was the archetype of the sort of weasel to which you refer. I do not
>> suffer them well.
>
> I document, then take it to their management (who ignores) but that
> creates the paper trail, then I take it
Me too. Documentation... emails... great stuff for living in a culture
where most people would not know honor it if gnawed on their testicles.
> to their co president, > board of directors > documenting more and
> more fraud as times goes on with
> names, dates, copied and logged memo's...then to stock the press and
> the holders meeting
>
> so far Ive only had to as far as the company president with mention of
> what the real deal is and (witholding a few bits of course).
>
> It is the publcity via the press that their attorneys fail to
> consider, they know they can beat or out last you in court, they have
> no clue the damage bad publicity can do them...hhese think they can
> scare you... they do not see the leverage issues, for
> instance the worst they can do to an individual is get him murdered...
> the most the individual can do is bankrupt the company and get is
> officers thown into prison. they miss that.
Hubris, coupled with one-dimensional thinking, no matter how brilliant
it may otherwise be, is a bad combination.
>>> ...who do see corruption most usuallly, some clearly, some in a cloud
>>> of confusion,
>>> but opt to keep quiet in the face of it in order to keep their
>>> jobs... those will oppose
>>> corrective measures in most cases.
>> I have found that one must know when to speak and when to hold his yap.
>> I do nothing but contract work - I am a hired gun and because of this
>> I am not in full possession of the business considerations that drive a
>> client's decision making. Therefore, when I see something I suspect may
>> be fucked, I alert the client to it and let them make the choice of
>> whether to act on my recommendations, take a different course of action,
>> or do nothing. I am there to please them. I hold a fiduciary
>> responsibility to alert them to potential problems, but I am not there
>> to save them when they have no interest in being saved. I have helped
>> several clients avoid major catastrophes. Some have declined to heed my
>> alerts - some of those went on about things and some went out of
>> business. Those are the breaks.
>
> your view is rational on many levels... I operate on some other level
Unfortunately, I still tend to open the yap when I shouldn't. Some
things you just can't beat out of a guy. :)
> though...something like flat tracking
> .. you never know how much skill, gonads, grace under fire, finese
> with the throttle etc... you have developed until you can pass first
> place man in a turn sliding sideways at 130 mph... then you find
> out. .. and the trophy babe pats you on the ass on the podium.
Flat trackers... crazy d00dz. Ever see "On Any Sunday"?
>
> also I observed the decline of most men...not all but ...most... a key
> driver was was their tacit agreement with idiocy or
> bogus situations, and going along with it.... it actually influences
> their genetics... did you know that? genetics is live, on going,
>
It would not surprise me.
> is it rewarding oherwise .. oh yes.. for me, my life, because of all
> the truly nasty ass travails has been rewarding beyond all limits, the
> insights gained far beyond what can be put into words... its what I
> came here to do apparently... others came to breed, or run prisons, or
> bake bread... and thats all fine.
Nothing is worse than the prison of fear. Most people marinate in it.
The lose out on what I believe to be the best things in life, the best
of those being your own man. It's a tough row to hoe, but when I look
at the cowardice of others and the morbid fear in which their lives are
pickled, I wince. Some level of pragmatism is warranted in life, to be
certain, but the levels and flavors I see every day... no thanks. It is
just not for me.
>
> but me...Id much rather stand to face the gatling gun fire, any
> day... at close range... so the gunner can see the whites of my
> eyes... and for the exact same reasons depicted in the various films
> mentioned
One of the odd things about myself is that even when I was shit scared
about something I had to do, I did it anyway.
>
> Its a funny thing, really funny, makes no rational sense, but in my
> life its been me who is still standing through all this, the oposing
> attorneys? and companies? dead or collapsed. I did nothing but stand
> there. Medical doctors who ridiculed my use of various health
> measures, dead now, their patients dead... I was still flat tracking
> and chasing off red heads at age 67 (I will be 69 shortly, I quit,
> Im not a *complete* idiot)
Good man.
>>> These value humorous defelection, distraction, focus on peripheral
>>> issues, false socialization,
>>> ball scores, etc in an attempt to be part of the acceptable group...
>>> this insures
>>> thier jobs....and their families income. Hard to fault in that
>>> context . But it is a fatal compromise.
>> Hand waving. The new American way.
>
> its the New America in Collapse way... those of us who hang in there
> without compromise will learn a lot if not always
> prosper. those who hang in there and *compromise will prosper
> financially ... but in no other way.. imo,
Financially - BFD. Some success there is a good thing. I once pulled
down $500K/yr. Not anymore. I hope to go to work for the state of FL
in a few weeks after 22 months without a paycheck. I could have been a
billionaire. In fact, I like telling people that I could have had Bill
Gates as my shoeshine girl had I been inclined to do what it took to get
there. Never wanted it for even a second. Money is great, but I get on
my knee to nobody at any time for any reason. Better to die on one's
feet than live on all fours.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Maybe one person in several hundred has the gonads to swim against
>>> that tide to save a project. .. do I advise it?
>>> not actually, one pays a heavy prices... in the context of a persons
>>> life and family it can easily be too high
>>> a price.
>> When at Bell, I got my balls handed to me on more occasions than I can
>> count. I was like that and the only thing I ever accomplished was to
>> get a lot of people pissed off with me.
>
> You missed a crucial and key point here,,, IF you had compromised
> then, you would
> not be the broadly capable person you are today.. and that goes beyond
> your skill sets
> to all other aspects of your life
>
> If you had been forceful to the limit then in the face of the worst
> jerks you would have
> benefited in direct proportion,,, not financially but in all other
> aspects of Life
I did, but when you are young you still think it sucks even when you
know you are "better" than they are. Some lessons come to real fruit
only with time.
>
>
>
>
>> That is one reason I went into
>> the consulting biz - no emotional or ethical investments in the client's
>> outcomes. If they insist on fucking themselves, so be it, just as long
>> as the checks keep coming. Can't save those who don't want it.
>
> I agree, I dont try to save them these days either, I just tell
> them what I can
> do for them, then do it... if they try to sabatage that i cut their
> balls off.
A wise philosophy because if you do not they will give it to you in the
back when it suits them. If they act like this, you know you cannot
trust them to the door. They have mo ethics or morals - the only
principle driving them is attainment of their goals no matter what it
takes - no matter who gets hurt or what gets ruined. Can an existence -
a mind - a *soul* - be any more bankrupt than that?
> ***> The world just cannot sustain a culture of self-absorbed
> sycophantic
>> yuppie yes-men who have no skills beyond expert use of the knee pads and
>> the titanium armored ass shield.***
>
> :) superbly executed analysis
Sometimes the spirit just comes to me. :)
>> Yes, but one can never be too certain of outcomes. The strangest
>> things happen.
>
> correct
Would it not be something to see this whole affair turn on its head?
We may just live long enough to see it. My father may, too. He's only
77 and all our relatives lived well into their 90s. :)
>>> The most viable exceptions Ive seen, and not so uncomon at all.... are
>>> the most talented tradesmen types..
>>> working with the tools keeps a man fit and sharp... and ethically
>>> sharp.
>> Nothing wrong with physical skills, that is for certain.
>
> I knew this in 1995, brain function declines in people who do not do
> physical work as well.
> now its main line science... if you are not fixing your own lawnmower
> etc,,, I
> recommend it.. fix your own car too... it pays huge personal
> dividends.
I blacksmith, do gold and silver work - some cabinet making, machining
- gunsmithing, shooting... all sorts of things. The one maddening thing
about my life is that it will never be long enough for me to learn all
the things that interest me. That is a bit of a shame, from my POV.
>> The software biz is the worst for this. Nothing is real and in almost
>> every sector one can bullshit his way out of gross incompetence. There
>> was once place I worked, out in the Arizona desert, where this was not
>> the case. We made and tested very scary things that will perhaps one
>> day kill many people and terrorize the rest. In that place,
>> incompetence and lies were met with immediate dismissal. The ship was
>> run more tightly than a vestal virgin with ironclad security and
>> engineering know-how that was second to none anywhere on the planet.
>> The technology was fascinating, but as I said, scary as fucking hell and
>> will probably be put to uses that nobody wants to think about too much.
>
> you are fortunate indeed to have been there... a total
> understatement.
A friend recently told me that there was hardware to go with the
software. If that is true...
>
> The powers that be however will
> attempt to use those developments to their own selfish interests and
> ruin..
>
> those who speak up will be
> silenced,
In my interview I was told in no uncertain terms that any discussion on
the nature of the work or technology would put me in a 200 foot deep
cell in West Virginia for the rest of my life. I've been slipping and
have had to kick myself to keep my mouth shut. But I have to tell you
that I don't trust the people who developed these things. That was 8
years ago and heaven only knows what that system is capable of doing
now. It's like scifi come true.
>
> .however.. and on that front.. and along the lines of Dr Delgado's
> research..mind numbing
> repercussions are now understood to be at hand by some of these same
> people....that will preclude perhaps
> some of the darker side applications.... that insight is tightly
> limitied though, most I know anywhere near that
> quarter think its all baloney... very interesting people though, with
> great stories.
Oh hell, I *know* nobody would believe me if I told them what this
stuff was. They'd call the men in the white coats. I told one friend,
and him only because he has similar contacts. He wasn't surprised but
reinforced the idea of keeping the mouth shut - he was the one who told
me there was hardware. That just about freaked me out.
As for great stories, a friend's father worked at Lawrence Livermore
Labs. He used to tell us shit he wasn't supposed to, but didn't seem to
really care that much. We were good boys and wouldn't squawk anyhow.
All weapons development stuff. Incredible, even in 1978. They had to
shelve a hard gamma beacon (laser) when word of it leaked and some human
rights organization had a conniption over it and started asking
questions - and that was years before. It caused instant maiming
injuries - destroyed eyes, etc. It was some sort of phased-array device
- all solid-state, no moving parts. Nasty sounding. Tons of other wild
stuff.