From A Spiritual Psychologist in Exile (JWE)

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Iceman

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Jan 7, 2004, 11:39:41 PM1/7/04
to
For a little humor, a post and the reply.

| J. Wyatt Ehrenfels
| New Member posted 08 October 2001 14:48
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Hello:
| I am a social psychologist and a Jungian currently recruiting participants for a
| broad study of the relationship between dreaming and waking experience. While I cannot divulge details about the

| exact purpose of the study, my current work will narrow the scope of previous research
| into the role of dreams in the foundation or regulation of waking motivation, affect, and awareness. While symbolism

| lies beyond the scope of this empirical research, the research is inspired by (and consistent with) Jung's view on

| the needs, structure, and dynamics of the psyche. The research also addresses public claims of dreams and

| dissociative events which expressed themes and elicited affect similar to that later expressed and elicited by the

| events of September 11. Previous dream research by this author includes.....

And a reply

| Mercurius
| Member posted 14 May 2003 21:46
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Sadly, the Americans have stolen all of my tribes dreams...


LOL.

Then there is this.....

| Dreaming attracts a diverse group of interesting individuals. Because
|dreaming is itself like a giant inkblot, it
| brings out the individuality in every researcher motivated by a genuine
| interest in dreams, which is terrific for ....

Giant Inkblot eh? Like after a car accident and their brains are splattered
all over?

Gerry, you are one gruesome dude.

--
Iceman PhD
GM... ain't no car in this case. *Snicker*
Talk to BJ dude he'll tell ya all about it. TINC

A.H.F.T.F

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Jan 11, 2004, 2:35:45 PM1/11/04
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Hi List,

My name is Theresa I live in N.L.R. AR. I am trying to start a Health Fraud
Task Force here in AR. I have one child Bipolar and another child Spina
Bifida. I just wanted to intro myself as I have read some of the postings
and feel this list might be useful. Some times I would like to ask
questions, and any information is my own openions as I do not have any
formal learning in psychology.

I would like to take an active roll here so any questions are welcome.

signed
Theresa (A.H.F.T.F.)


Mark Morin

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Jan 11, 2004, 4:41:36 PM1/11/04
to
A.H.F.T.F wrote:

> Hi List,

Hi. but this isn't a list. This is usenet.

>
> My name is Theresa I live in N.L.R. AR.

N.L.R. ?
AR arizona?

> I am trying to start a Health Fraud
> Task Force here in AR. I have one child Bipolar and another child Spina
> Bifida. I just wanted to intro myself as I have read some of the postings
> and feel this list might be useful. Some times I would like to ask
> questions, and any information is my own openions as I do not have any
> formal learning in psychology.

Formal training in anything isn't a prerequisite for participating in
usenet. All you need is a newsreader. Feel free to initiate threads and
also be sure your skin is fairly thick--usenet can be a very useful
venture but it has it's fair share of trolls

>
> I would like to take an active roll here so any questions are welcome.
>
> signed
> Theresa (A.H.F.T.F.)

A.H.F.T.F. ?

>
>

John M Price PhD

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Jan 11, 2004, 5:10:36 PM1/11/04
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In sci.psychology.misc article <btsfu7$b1aah$1...@ID-61965.news.uni-berlin.de> Mark Morin <mdm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: A.H.F.T.F wrote:

: > Hi List,

: Hi. but this isn't a list. This is usenet.

: > My name is Theresa I live in N.L.R. AR.

: N.L.R. ?
: AR arizona?

Arkansas. Arizona would be Ariz. or AZ for the postal ID.

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place.
- Gandhi

A.H.F.T.F

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Jan 11, 2004, 5:59:12 PM1/11/04
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I have never used a usernet before so forgive me for missing that.

N.L.R. = North Little Rock
AR = Arkansas
A.H.F.T.F. = Arkansas Health Fraud Task Force

I'm use to trolls. I would like some help though in knowing how to start a
thread. Like I said I am new to this and I would have listed "New Here" on
a new thread if I new how to. It is much different then what I am use to
using and accually thought it would come up with a new thread just by
changing the title, as I can plainly see it didn't. :-(

Signed,

Theresa

mark

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Jan 11, 2004, 6:32:12 PM1/11/04
to

You did. At least on my newsreader. If I select to view messages
threaded, your original posting is first and subsequent ones are under that.
m

Gene Douglas

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Jan 11, 2004, 9:05:07 PM1/11/04
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Let me guess. That might be North Little Rock. Or New Little Rock. Or Not
Little Rock.


"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:4001c9dc$0$732$d36...@news.calweb.com...

Gene Douglas

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Jan 11, 2004, 9:08:58 PM1/11/04
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All of the newsreaders have a different look to them. Since you're not AOL,
we can skip that. If you have a Microsoft program, (95, 98, 2000, XP) you
probably have Outlook Express or Outlook.

What you did the first time started a thread. You (probably) clicked on New
Post, filled in the blanks, and clicked Send. If you want to reply, you do
what you just did. Put the arrow over the previous post, click, and fill in
the blanks and send.

You seem to have it down already.

"A.H.F.T.F" <jsal...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WPOdnRlzCac...@comcast.com...

Ryan Lankford

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Jan 12, 2004, 1:53:42 AM1/12/04
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He's using OE 6, and he seems to be doing just fine.

Ryan Lankford
http://www.ryan-lankford.com

"Donkeys can talk, people can fly, and a man named Jesus lives in the Sky!"

A.H.F.T.F

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Jan 12, 2004, 11:01:06 PM1/12/04
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On 12 Aug 2003 18:29:48 GMT, nospamto...@hotmail.com wrote:

>Why would a tester do Rorschach testing in ADHD testing?

Because they haven't found anything they can medically test for yet.
BTW, that means there's no scientific proof that ADHD (as a chemically
treatable disease) exists.
=====================================

What about SPECT imaging? Or is this too much to ask for? I don't like
this doctors view on treatment to much but if SPECT imaging became
affordable and acceptable wouldn't it be a test they can use medically?

http://add.about.com/cs/othertreatment/a/inattentive.htm

Or is this considered pseudoscience? I would like to think some day they
will accually have a defenative test for most if not all mental illnesses.

Theresa


mark

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Jan 12, 2004, 11:23:28 PM1/12/04
to
A.H.F.T.F wrote:
> On 12 Aug 2003 18:29:48 GMT, nospamto...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>Why would a tester do Rorschach testing in ADHD testing?

Because there may be a question of something besides or in addition to
ADHD. Because there may be a question of how the individual processes
information. Etc.

> Because they haven't found anything they can medically test for yet.

I'm not sure who wrote this. As a matter of fact, they have found
plenty. Most insurance companies reimburse neuropsychological
assessments as medical procedures. This kind of testing yeilds lots of
information that is medically relevant.

> BTW, that means there's no scientific proof that ADHD (as a chemically
> treatable disease) exists.

I'm not sure what this statement means. Is it supposed to be in contrast
to "BTW, that means there's no scientific proof that ADHD exists?"

Also, what is meant by "scientific proof?" There are piles and piles of
scientific "evidence." In science, very rarely do you talk in terms of
"proof."


> =====================================
>
> What about SPECT imaging?

In the research stage. It might have some promise. fMRI might be more
affordable though.

> Or is this too much to ask for? I don't like
> this doctors view on treatment to much but if SPECT imaging became
> affordable and acceptable wouldn't it be a test they can use medically?

It IS a test they can use medically. It's just not clear what use.

>
> http://add.about.com/cs/othertreatment/a/inattentive.htm
>
> Or is this considered pseudoscience? I would like to think some day they
> will accually have a defenative test for most if not all mental illnesses.

and physical illnesses.

A.H.F.T.F

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Jan 12, 2004, 11:54:27 PM1/12/04
to
I understand about MRI.

The first part of the other post was accually from this usernet last year
but thanks for answering those questions and giving me an update on that.

The second part of the post was mine. I have also heard of a PET scan being
used.

The most flak I get is from people that say these test are pseudoscience at
best and none of them will ever be used to accuratly diagnosis mental
illnesses.

I have also read articals about DNA testing and that they are really close
to having a real test that way also, but it is complicated and will take
longer.

mark

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Jan 13, 2004, 12:17:49 AM1/13/04
to
A.H.F.T.F wrote:
> I understand about MRI.
>
> The first part of the other post was accually from this usernet last year
> but thanks for answering those questions and giving me an update on that.
>
> The second part of the post was mine. I have also heard of a PET scan being
> used.

There's a Dr. Amen who is headquarterd outside chicago (i think). IIRC,
he uses SPECT or PET to diagnose ADHD. He's come up with a half dozen or
so variants of ADHD. If you ask me, he's a tad off the mark--perhaps a
bit too eager to call things ADHD that could be something else.

>
> The most flak I get is from people that say these test are pseudoscience at
> best and none of them will ever be used to accuratly diagnosis mental
> illnesses.

There's nothing pseudo about the science of the testing. What's
unfortunate is that the science has not developed to the point where the
tests tell us anything. But isnt that the nature of SCIENCE? You have a
hypothesis, you test it, you use the results to refine your hypothesis,
and after a while you get to the point where your hypothesis is pretty
sound.

There are also a paucity of tests to diagnose certain physical ailments.
Look at chronic fatique syndrom, chronic pain, fibromyalgia, etc. I wish
the same people who critique so strongly psychology and psychiatry would
be consistent and look at the same problems in other areas of medicine.

>
> I have also read articals about DNA testing and that they are really close
> to having a real test that way also, but it is complicated and will take
> longer.

Personally, I think DNA testing will, at best, show a predisposition to
certain disorders. I think there will always be a combination of
genetics and envioronment that will be necessary for mental illness to
manifest itself.


A.H.F.T.F

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Jan 13, 2004, 7:55:36 AM1/13/04
to
>There's a Dr. Amen who is headquartered outside >Chicago (I think). IIRC,

>he uses SPECT or PET to diagnose ADHD. He's come >up with a half dozen or
>so variants of ADHD. If you ask me, he's a tad off the >mark--perhaps a
>bit too eager to call things ADHD that could be >something else.

I agree he does seem a bit tad off, the very last of his 6 phases of ADHD
sound more like Bipolar then ADHD.

>
>There's nothing pseudo about the science of the testing. >What's
>unfortunate is that the science has not developed to the >point where the

>tests tell us anything. But isn't that the nature of >SCIENCE? You have a


>hypothesis, you test it, you use the results to refine your >hypothesis,
>and after a while you get to the point where your >hypothesis is pretty
>sound.

This is where a lot of people get into trouble, they don't realize that
science is a hypothesis that has been tested time and time again. Science
changes as new material is added, what was true yesterday may not be true
today.

>There are also a paucity of tests to diagnose certain >physical ailments.

>Look at chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic pain, >fibromyalgia, etc. I wish


>the same people who critique so strongly psychology >and psychiatry would
>be consistent and look at the same problems in other >areas of medicine.

Or even look at themselves, I have seen so many critique's by people who
just do it out of spite. The anti vaccination people kill studies that say
vaccinations are safe, the anti psychiatry people kill studies that could
helpful. And the list goes on.


>Personally, I think DNA testing will, at best, show a >predisposition to
>certain disorders. I think there will always be a >combination of

>genetics and environment that will be necessary for >mental illness to
>manifest itself.

I'm not sure about this, Fragile X can only be tested with DNA. The
symptoms of Fragile X look a lot like Autism on the outside, but completely
different under DNA testing. And still about 10 % or more of children
diagnosised with Autism actually have Fragile X that is undiagnosised.
Environment will always have some factor in mental illness even it is just a
small one. But I think this is putting the horse before the cart as one
would have to have a predisposition of a condition before certain events
would have an effect. But I think you said this already. :-)

YapooZa

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Jan 22, 2004, 6:08:28 AM1/22/04
to
Why not just use googles web based client ? :) it seems to work for me


http://www.zen16349.zen.co.uk/marsinfluence.html

mike

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Feb 4, 2004, 8:24:25 PM2/4/04
to
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:54:27 -0600, "A.H.F.T.F" <jsal...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I understand about MRI.
>
>The first part of the other post was accually from this usernet last year
>but thanks for answering those questions and giving me an update on that.
>
>The second part of the post was mine. I have also heard of a PET scan being
>used.
>
>The most flak I get is from people that say these test are pseudoscience at
>best and none of them will ever be used to accuratly diagnosis mental
>illnesse

I may be incorrect , but ADHD is not a mental disorder, but a
cognitive disorder. As someone who is identified as having learning
diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is important to
keep that distinction clear. Most people associate mental illness
with condition where there is a distortion in the perception of
"reality" ( lacking a better term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ;
people with cognitive problems don't distort information there just
differences with processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.
For example, if I am in a crowded situation I can get very
aprehensive and do not function well because part of my condition is a
reduction in the filtering of information so I tend to get
overwhelmed. If there are several conversations going on I can't
follow the one I'm involved in.

-=Be4U=-

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Feb 4, 2004, 9:32:44 PM2/4/04
to
mike <fit...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by taking a lime
green crayon and scribbling in
news:j5632017bkn9p5m88...@4ax.com, on the hallowed
day of Wed 04 Feb 2004 05:24:25p:

> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:54:27 -0600, "A.H.F.T.F"
> <jsal...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I understand about MRI.
>>
>>The first part of the other post was accually from this usernet
>>last year but thanks for answering those questions and giving
>>me an update on that.
>>
>>The second part of the post was mine. I have also heard of a
>>PET scan being used.
>>
>>The most flak I get is from people that say these test are
>>pseudoscience at best and none of them will ever be used to
>>accuratly diagnosis mental illnesse

> I may be incorrect , but ADHD is not a mental disorder, but a
> cognitive disorder.

AFAIK, that's correct, and yet oddly enough it's often diagnosed
and treated by a psychologist/psychiatrist, rather than a
pediatrician. As I understand it also, the testing for ADHD (and/or
attachment disorder), isn't terribly "scientific", and they
diagnose based on a certain set of symptoms. Obviously it's not
something that can be determined by a blood test...but I wish it
were :(

> As someone who is identified as having
> learning diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is
> important to keep that distinction clear.

Would you mind if I asked...what kind of testing you went through
for that diagnosis?

> Most people
> associate mental illness with condition where there is a
> distortion in the perception of "reality" ( lacking a better
> term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ; people with cognitive
> problems don't distort information there just differences with
> processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.

Indeed. But (and please correct me if my information is incorrect)
I've heard/seen that children with ADHD are also prone to fits of
anger and wild mood swings.

I had a boss years ago who had ADHD (and was unmedicated). It was
fairly easy for him to deal with until he went through some intense
stress (had to sell the business as it was losing so much
money...not my fault! lol). During the "end days" of working with
him (I was the Office Manager and his 'right hand'), I was all but
holding him by the shoulders and leading him to what he needed to
do. He would go off on tangients and search through filing cabinets
for papers that weren't necessary at that moment, meanwhile there
were cash-paying customers waiting for him in his office.

Of course his behavior (which lasted a couple of months) could have
been stress related or something else (like depression), but from
watching him closely I always assumed it was from his ADHD. It was
sad to watch him not be able to focus on priorities.

> For
> example, if I am in a crowded situation I can get very
> aprehensive and do not function well because part of my
> condition is a reduction in the filtering of information so I
> tend to get overwhelmed. If there are several conversations
> going on I can't follow the one I'm involved in.
>
>>
>>I have also read articals about DNA testing and that they are
>>really close to having a real test that way also, but it is
>>complicated and will take longer.

If you have any good links for further reading, I'd appreciate it.
Someone I know is going through testing for ADHD, although it looks
like there's something else (like an Attachment Disorder) going on,
as well. I'm finding researching this very overwhelming, and would
appreciate any links which you've found helpful. Thanks.


--
-=Mara=-
"Commitment is what transforms a promise into reality. It is the
words that speak boldly of your intentions, and the actions, which
speak louder than words.

It is making the time when there is none. Coming through time after
time after time, year after year after year.

Commitment is the stuff character is made of;
the power to change the face of things. It is the daily triumph of
integrity over skepticism."

Author Unknown

Gene Douglas

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Feb 4, 2004, 10:11:40 PM2/4/04
to
Actually, the most prevalent mental disorder, according to the DSM, is
tobacco use.

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:j5632017bkn9p5m88...@4ax.com...

mike

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Feb 4, 2004, 11:00:50 PM2/4/04
to
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:32:44 -0800, "-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com>
wrote:
Okay., I was identified as an adult, just for clarification.

>mike <fit...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by taking a lime
>green crayon and scribbling in
>news:j5632017bkn9p5m88...@4ax.com, on the hallowed
>day of Wed 04 Feb 2004 05:24:25p:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:54:27 -0600, "A.H.F.T.F"
>> <jsal...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I understand about MRI.
>>>
>>>The first part of the other post was accually from this usernet
>>>last year but thanks for answering those questions and giving
>>>me an update on that.
>>>
>>>The second part of the post was mine. I have also heard of a
>>>PET scan being used.
>>>
>>>The most flak I get is from people that say these test are
>>>pseudoscience at best and none of them will ever be used to
>>>accuratly diagnosis mental illnesse
>
>> I may be incorrect , but ADHD is not a mental disorder, but a
>> cognitive disorder.
>
>AFAIK, that's correct, and yet oddly enough it's often diagnosed
>and treated by a psychologist/psychiatrist, rather than a
>pediatrician. As I understand it also, the testing for ADHD (and/or
>attachment disorder), isn't terribly "scientific", and they
>diagnose based on a certain set of symptoms. Obviously it's not
>something that can be determined by a blood test...but I wish it
>were :(

I believe psychologists are used for this because the problem is
identified though behavioral disruptions; and most schools have a
psychologist on staff.

>> As someone who is identified as having
>> learning diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is
>> important to keep that distinction clear.
>
>Would you mind if I asked...what kind of testing you went through
>for that diagnosis?

I went through several batteries of tests administered initially by
the university I attended (during my senior year) and then was
referred to a speech pathologist for additional tests. These
involved a wide range of tests in perceptual, problem solving,
mathematics, memory -both memory and recall; The tests were done under
timed and untimed conditions. etc And some self reporting.
Again I want mention that my diagnosis was made as an adult, and as
for ADHD I just took an inventory and need to do a follow up that is
why I said "likely" .

>> Most people
>> associate mental illness with condition where there is a
>> distortion in the perception of "reality" ( lacking a better
>> term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ; people with cognitive
>> problems don't distort information there just differences with
>> processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.
>
>Indeed. But (and please correct me if my information is incorrect)
>I've heard/seen that children with ADHD are also prone to fits of
>anger and wild mood swings.

I would say the behavior is the result of the cognitive problems-
namely becoming extremely frustrated. When I am working, I can get
extremely irritable if there a lot distractions and noise; of course I
have the additional problem that if there is no noise that is a
distraction ( I call it anticipatory distraction- when everything is
silent I expect a noise). In fact being asked to work in a high
traffic area was a major problem with my last job.

>I had a boss years ago who had ADHD (and was unmedicated). It was
>fairly easy for him to deal with until he went through some intense
>stress (had to sell the business as it was losing so much
>money...not my fault! lol). During the "end days" of working with
>him (I was the Office Manager and his 'right hand'), I was all but
>holding him by the shoulders and leading him to what he needed to
>do. He would go off on tangients and search through filing cabinets
>for papers that weren't necessary at that moment, meanwhile there
>were cash-paying customers waiting for him in his office.

From my experiences frustration and stress (wihic often are self
reinforing) definitely are magnifiers.

A.H.F.T.F

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Feb 5, 2004, 12:18:24 AM2/5/04
to
" I may be incorrect , but ADHD is not a mental disorder, but a
cognitive disorder. As someone who is identified as having learning
diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is important to
keep that distinction clear. Most people associate mental illness
with condition where there is a distortion in the perception of
"reality" ( lacking a better term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ;
people with cognitive problems don't distort information there just
differences with processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.
For example, if I am in a crowded situation I can get very
aprehensive and do not function well because part of my condition is a
reduction in the filtering of information so I tend to get
overwhelmed. If there are several conversations going on I can't
follow the one I'm involved in. "

I understand that ADHD is a learning disorder, but it is one of the few
learning disorders that can be successfully treated with medications.

I do think however there is a lot of confusion, and ADHD is classifyed as a
mental illness (to some) instead of a learning disorder (per DSM), but since
ADHD can be treated successfully with medications (which only a doctor can
prescribe) most find it more in the mental illness side. Most also consider
ADHD part of the Autism spectrum of disorders. This also leads many to
think in terms of mental disorders instead of learning disorders. And there
are other things such as a biological link between twins and family members.

This makes for one complicated disorder, and I don't (for one) think that it
can be any one single solution.


mike

unread,
Feb 5, 2004, 2:45:59 AM2/5/04
to
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 23:18:24 -0600, "A.H.F.T.F" <jsal...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>" I may be incorrect , but ADHD is not a mental disorder, but a
>cognitive disorder. As someone who is identified as having learning
>diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is important to
>keep that distinction clear. Most people associate mental illness
>with condition where there is a distortion in the perception of
>"reality" ( lacking a better term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ;
>people with cognitive problems don't distort information there just
>differences with processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.
>For example, if I am in a crowded situation I can get very
>aprehensive and do not function well because part of my condition is a
>reduction in the filtering of information so I tend to get
>overwhelmed. If there are several conversations going on I can't
>follow the one I'm involved in. "
>
>I understand that ADHD is a learning disorder, but it is one of the few
>learning disorders that can be successfully treated with medications.

To be clear ADHS is seperate from Learning Diabiliites, at least
according to the literature I've read, adnDSM-IV.

>I do think however there is a lot of confusion, and ADHD is classifyed as a
>mental illness (to some) instead of a learning disorder (per DSM), but since
>ADHD can be treated successfully with medications (which only a doctor can
>prescribe) most find it more in the mental illness side. Most also consider
>ADHD part of the Autism spectrum of disorders. This also leads many to
>think in terms of mental disorders instead of learning disorders. And there
>are other things such as a biological link between twins and family members.

I'm not sure why you equate medicating with mental illness (actually
disorder is the proper term). Learning Diabilities are typically, and
often effectively dealt with through nonmedication techniques;
sometimes just being made aware and working with a professional to
develop appropriate strategies and identify necessary accomodations
(such as for me working in a quiet environment, among others) allows
the person to function quite well.

Also it appears what we are discussing are technically referred to
as neurodevelopmental disorders (autism, LDS, and ADHD among others)
as opposed to what are traditionally thought of as "mental
disorders". I realize ADHD is listed in the DSM, but it is referred
to as a childhood disorder(actually all three conditions are listed as
disorders identified in childhood), and we now know that it affects
adults as well. DSM is a diagnostic tool intended for Practitioners
and Researchers, I only mention because it can be as dangerous as the
PDR (Physician Desk Reference) if not used with appropriate training
and remaining current in the literature. since DMS-IV it is about 10
yrs old ( thre are some indications that a revision process for DSM-V
are beginning) the classifications may slightly oudated (remember at
onetime homosexuality was listed as disorder)

I realize it may sem as if I am being particularly nitpicky, but
1.there is the social stigma associated with "mental disorder"= being
crazy
2. This is a good opportunity to make people more aware. So thanks

Gene Douglas

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Feb 5, 2004, 10:34:15 AM2/5/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:9le32050gc6idph1g...@4ax.com...

What other professional would you expect? Generally the test is a
questionnaire. However, there are activity tests, as well. One has you to
watch letters appearing on a screen, and to hit the space bar whenever an L
is followed by a P, or some such thing. It is very long and boring, so it
is easy not to pay attention.

> >> As someone who is identified as having
> >> learning diabilities, and likly to also from ADHD I think it is
> >> important to keep that distinction clear.
> >
> >Would you mind if I asked...what kind of testing you went through
> >for that diagnosis?
> I went through several batteries of tests administered initially by
> the university I attended (during my senior year) and then was
> referred to a speech pathologist for additional tests. These
> involved a wide range of tests in perceptual, problem solving,
> mathematics, memory -both memory and recall; The tests were done under
> timed and untimed conditions. etc And some self reporting.
> Again I want mention that my diagnosis was made as an adult, and as
> for ADHD I just took an inventory and need to do a follow up that is
> why I said "likely" .

Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does coffee have on
you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed by coffee, then you may have
ADHD. (If you are not, that doesn't prove you don't.) As you probably
know, stimulants are often given for ADHD.

> >> Most people
> >> associate mental illness with condition where there is a
> >> distortion in the perception of "reality" ( lacking a better
> >> term) like paranonia or schizophrenia ; people with cognitive
> >> problems don't distort information there just differences with
> >> processing. As a result they may mispercieve things.
> >
> >Indeed. But (and please correct me if my information is incorrect)
> >I've heard/seen that children with ADHD are also prone to fits of
> >anger and wild mood swings.

There are several types. The inattentive type doesn't have that problem.
Some of the others are impulsive. That is, if they get angry, they are
prone to act out, without restraining themselves as most others would do.
Also, ADHD kids tend to have other problems, because adults have griped at
them so many times. So they become convinced they are bad, which feeds into
their behavior.

> I would say the behavior is the result of the cognitive problems-
> namely becoming extremely frustrated. When I am working, I can get
> extremely irritable if there a lot distractions and noise; of course I
> have the additional problem that if there is no noise that is a
> distraction ( I call it anticipatory distraction- when everything is
> silent I expect a noise). In fact being asked to work in a high
> traffic area was a major problem with my last job.

There is also the principle of opposite effect. Somebody is studying, and
wearing earplugs and shooter's ear covers. The noise is reduced by 90%, but
what he is doing distracts him, and he starts listening to the little bit of
sound he can hear. He listens, because he is trying not to listen, which
just remind him of why he is trying not to listen.

Gene Douglas

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Feb 5, 2004, 10:35:14 AM2/5/04
to

"A.H.F.T.F" <jsal...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Q6qdnc3NBsL...@comcast.com...
One very effective treatment is EEG neurofeedback.
>

-=Be4U=-

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Feb 5, 2004, 3:55:51 PM2/5/04
to
"Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by

taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:

[...]

> Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
> coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
> by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
> doesn't prove you don't.)

Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"? I know of 5 adults who
have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently, they've
told me.

A.H.F.T.F

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Feb 5, 2004, 4:23:12 PM2/5/04
to
> Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
> coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
> by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
> doesn't prove you don't.)

>Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"? I know of 5 adults >who
>have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently,
>they've
>told me.

It's not exactly a test done by doctors, many parents will give there
children coffee or some other stimulant to see if it helps them or not. If
the coffee helps most will stop there and never get a diagnosis of ADHD. But
coffee will only help the most mildest forms of ADHD.


Gene Douglas

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Feb 5, 2004, 5:11:38 PM2/5/04
to

"-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com...

> "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by
> taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
> news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
> hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:
>
> [...]
>
> > Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
> > coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
> > by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
> > doesn't prove you don't.)
>
> Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"? I know of 5 adults who
> have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently, they've
> told me.

Yes, it's only approximate. Generally, if caffeine has a calming effect,
that can verify ADHD. If it does not, that doesn't eliminate it. However,
other stimulants, such as dexadrene, should reduce the symptoms in most ADHD
sufferers.

mike

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Feb 6, 2004, 1:15:21 AM2/6/04
to
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:11:38 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
<gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>"-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com...
>> "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by
>> taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
>> news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
>> hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
>> > coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
>> > by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
>> > doesn't prove you don't.)
>>
>> Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"? I know of 5 adults who
>> have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently, they've
>> told me.
>
>Yes, it's only approximate. Generally, if caffeine has a calming effect,
>that can verify ADHD. If it does not, that doesn't eliminate it. However,
>other stimulants, such as dexadrene, should reduce the symptoms in most ADHD
>sufferers.

I don't think it's wise to use the effects of coffee as a "test"
Because it is presumptive. Coffee appears to be a treatment
alternative that works in some cases. So what you are doing is saying
that if the person responds to a generic substance that may possibly
help condition A (and also B,C,D,E, etc) Then ther person suffers
from A Also that if the person doesn't respond they one avenue of
treatment then they don't have the condition.
These assumptions are very dangerous. In this case false positives
and negatives are very bad results

If you go online there are several sites that have inventories to
make a very preliminary assessment.


Mike
"that's just my opnion....I could be wrong"- Dennis Miller (before
MNF)

Gene Douglas

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Feb 6, 2004, 8:00:25 AM2/6/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:1pb62013f0b8hgbi1...@4ax.com...

One also needs a complaint. Nobody would try to make that observation,
unless they have symptoms they are wondering about. A questionnaire would
be in order. If one answers No to nearly all questions, then probably he
has some other problem.

A further test might be to see if ADHD medication, such as Ritalin or
Strattera works. If it does, then "problem solved." If not, and switching
medication doesn't work, then maybe there is some other problem.

A more cumbersome test, sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of a
waiting list, is one of several done using computers, testing attention and
distractability. At least one of those is available on line, I think at
attention.com, or a website with a similar name.

Incidentally, a non-medication treatment for ADHD is EEG neurofeedback.

mike

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Feb 6, 2004, 1:48:11 PM2/6/04
to
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:00:25 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
<gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

Actually according to the self inventory I used it was 50% using a
check off system. To be more cautious I adapted it to a 0-5 scale
(before reading the questions) and counted only scores of 4 or 5. But
Again I Caution this was for MYSELF ONLY!, and it suggested that I may
have ADHD. Threfore I should consider further diagnostic with a
professional


>A further test might be to see if ADHD medication, such as Ritalin or
>Strattera works. If it does, then "problem solved." If not, and switching
>medication doesn't work, then maybe there is some other problem.

Again this method has the same problem as the coffee test, in that it
is presumptively positive. In addition thre are inherant risks of
using medications. While you may relieve the syptoms the underlying
problem could bemasked or even exaserbated, This is especially
dangerous since some manifestations of LDS and ADHD are so close to
one another.


>A more cumbersome test, sometimes because of cost, sometimes because of a
>waiting list, is one of several done using computers, testing attention and
>distractability. At least one of those is available on line, I think at
>attention.com, or a website with a similar name.

I will check that out - Thanks

Gene Douglas

unread,
Feb 6, 2004, 8:36:14 PM2/6/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:rpn720hm6c88qi9po...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:00:25 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
> <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >news:1pb62013f0b8hgbi1...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:11:38 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
> >> <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com...
> >> >> "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by
> >> >> taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
> >> >> news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
> >> >> hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:
> >> >>
> >> >> [...]
> >> >>

> >One also needs a complaint. Nobody would try to make that observation,


> >unless they have symptoms they are wondering about. A questionnaire
would
> >be in order. If one answers No to nearly all questions, then probably he
> >has some other problem.

> Actually according to the self inventory I used it was 50% using a
> check off system. To be more cautious I adapted it to a 0-5 scale
> (before reading the questions) and counted only scores of 4 or 5. But
> Again I Caution this was for MYSELF ONLY!, and it suggested that I may
> have ADHD. Threfore I should consider further diagnostic with a
> professional

> >A further test might be to see if ADHD medication, such as Ritalin or
> >Strattera works. If it does, then "problem solved." If not, and
switching
> >medication doesn't work, then maybe there is some other problem.
> Again this method has the same problem as the coffee test, in that it
> is presumptively positive. In addition thre are inherant risks of
> using medications. While you may relieve the syptoms the underlying
> problem could bemasked or even exaserbated, This is especially
> dangerous since some manifestations of LDS and ADHD are so close to
> one another.

Similarity of symptoms isn't the issue in the above case. ADHD occurs
because a part of the brain, which you could compare to power brakes, is
asleep. A stimulant wakes it up. If another disorder didn't involve that,
then a stimulant wouldn't have that effect.

And if you are concerned with side effects of medication, possibly EEG
neurofeedback would be preferable. In that case, diagnosis isn't necessary.
You simply present the symptoms you would like to lose, and there are two
paths to choose from after that.

There is a qualitative assessment, which costs a lot and involves a time
delay. Or there is the procedure of using protocols that are usually
effective for those symptoms, and seeing what happens. This generally (but
not necessarily) involves reducing Theta frequencies, and increasing Low
Beta (SMR, or sensory motor reflex) frequencies. It can also involve
increasing Beta or High Beta, and increasing Alpha.

mike

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Feb 6, 2004, 10:11:29 PM2/6/04
to
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:36:14 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
<gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
diagnistic tools, since they could create complications. Also simply
treating symptoms can mask the real problem. For instance if the
person suffers from an LDS and is evaluated through a series of
medications other indicators may not be accounted for, and the real
problem not dealt with. This can be problematic if the person has
both ADHD as well as an LDS.
EEB Neurofeedback sounds like a form of Biofeedback, and it is not my
intention to dismiss that, However, I believe before any type of
treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I
would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course, this better
equips the person to evaluate options, and address unexpected
situations that come up.

John M Price PhD

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Feb 6, 2004, 11:38:51 PM2/6/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com> -=Be4U=- <be...@no-address.com> wrote:
: "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by

: taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
: news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
: hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:

: [...]

: > Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
: > coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
: > by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
: > doesn't prove you don't.)

: Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"?

No, it isn't very specific, though if you have relief from headaches by
cafeine, say at 200mg (NoDoze), that will indicate you likely have
migraines and need further evaluation and possiblt other drugs (like ergot
derivatives, etc.).

Gene is confusing stimulants. Most ADHD can be ascribed to the dopamine
systems which are heavily involved in attention control. Cafeine operates
intracellularly on the phosphodiesterase system shutting down the internal
response to any of the catecholamines and even the indolamines. A bit
blunt.

I know of 5 adults who
: have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently, they've
: told me.

Not at all surprising. Might even be, in future, a bit diagnostic as this
is secondary to the actual receptor population and its activity, hence can
maybe lead to a correct understanding, individually, as to just what
receptor system is involved.


(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

"God has no place within these
walls, just as facts have no
place within organised religion."
- The Simpsons, #100. 1994

John M Price PhD

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Feb 6, 2004, 11:40:55 PM2/6/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <uczUb.19105$E47....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

: "-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com> wrote in message


: news:Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com...
: > "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by
: > taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
: > news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
: > hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:
: >
: > [...]
: >
: > > Another test, which is just approximate, is what effect does
: > > coffee have on you? Stimulant or calming? If you are calmed
: > > by coffee, then you may have ADHD. (If you are not, that
: > > doesn't prove you don't.)
: >
: > Seriously? *That* is part of the "test"? I know of 5 adults who
: > have ADHD, and coffee/soda affects each one differently, they've
: > told me.

: Yes, it's only approximate. Generally, if caffeine has a calming effect,
: that can verify ADHD. If it does not, that doesn't eliminate it. However,
: other stimulants, such as dexadrene, should reduce the symptoms in most ADHD
: sufferers.

Yes, and most normal kids as well. The stimulation effect is an adult
brain's response.


(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

California, n.:
From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or
Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or
"fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex."
-- Ed Moran

John M Price PhD

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Feb 6, 2004, 11:50:55 PM2/6/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <rpn720hm6c88qi9po...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
[ADHD medication patient trials}
: Again this method has the same problem as the coffee test, in that it
: is presumptively positive.

Not if specific behaviors. pre- and post-test are involved.

The synmpathomimetics do increase attention skills, even in normals. The
military used them for NORAD watchers who, after about one half hour,
became board watching the radar and missed simulated ICBMs attacking the
US mainland. Amphetamines moved this line to four hours.

In addition thre are inherant risks of
: using medications.

And you think the physicians do not know this?

While you may relieve the syptoms the underlying
: problem could bemasked or even exaserbated,

Oh bulllshit. This is an assumption that is data free. Thanks, Freud.
Just when the hell will you ever die!

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

Liberals created that term 50 years ago.
- Santa Fe, Texas, School Board member Robin Clayton
on the concept of 'separation of church and state.'

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and
not opinions, I contemplate with soveriegn reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association,
January 1, 1802

John M Price PhD

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Feb 6, 2004, 11:53:55 PM2/6/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <iiXUb.32588$ib6....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

: Similarity of symptoms isn't the issue in the above case. ADHD occurs


: because a part of the brain, which you could compare to power brakes, is
: asleep. A stimulant wakes it up. If another disorder didn't involve that,
: then a stimulant wouldn't have that effect.

GeneDoug, take a course in neurophysiology, please.

Dopamine (DA), in most synapses, is inhibitory in nature. Amphetamine
facilitates DA, hence increasing its ability to inhibit other neurons.

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22)
Learn something new today, like how to spell or how to count to
ten without using your fingers. Be careful dressing this
morning. You may be hit by a car later in the day and you
wouldn't want to be taken to the doctor's office in some of
that old underwear you own.

John M Price PhD

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Feb 6, 2004, 11:58:28 PM2/6/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as

: diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.

Well, all medications do so. Just what is your point?

Also simply
: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.

Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
psychology.

Just what data do you think you have, anyway, for this crap?

: treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I


: would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course,

Starting from base zero, with behavioral manifestations representing a
possible error in various neurotransmitter systems, just how the hell else
would *you* proceed, other than testing your hypotheses about those very
self same systems?

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

| SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical |
| reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat |
| to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods |

mike

unread,
Feb 7, 2004, 12:32:48 AM2/7/04
to
Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond. This
was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic. Please keep it that way I
don't want to get sucked into a flame war.On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,

John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:

>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
>: diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.
>
>Well, all medications do so. Just what is your point?

TThe point was statd in the first sentence- don't use treatments as
diagnostic tools. If you went to a hospital with chest pains, would
you like the cardiac surgeon to cut you open, do a bypass without
testing first? (when all you had was gas) or would you like to just be
given antacid and told to go home? (when you may have blocked
artieries?- you might not make it back for surgery)


>
> Also simply
>: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.
>
>Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
>psychology.

you happen to be incorrect. ADHD and LDS are similar disorders,
however the correct treatments may be different.

>Just what data do you think you have, anyway, for this crap?

Will my life experience suffice, and having done reading and lit
reviews suffice?
When I was younger people (teachers and familiy members) thought I was
hyperactive, At the time medication wasn not used. As I mentioned in
an earlier post when I went back to college to finish up and write my
thesis, and was tested they found out I actually suffer from some LDS.

Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but
you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
as each other.


>: treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I
>: would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course,
>
>Starting from base zero, with behavioral manifestations representing a
>possible error in various neurotransmitter systems, just how the hell else
>would *you* proceed, other than testing your hypotheses about those very
>self same systems?

I would perform established diagnostic tests ( they do exist) to
undertand what the problem is.That is what professionals such as
Psychologists, Speech Pathologists,, and Special Education
Specialists do.
REmember in Science its: Observe, Identify, Hypothesis, then test.


Again let me reiterate I welcome a respectful, healthy discussion.

-=Be4U=-

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Feb 7, 2004, 3:39:56 AM2/7/04
to
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> delighted us to no end by

taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
news:40246bdb$0$49528$d36...@news.calweb.com, on the hallowed
day of Fri 06 Feb 2004 08:38:51p:

[...]


> Gene is confusing stimulants. Most ADHD can be ascribed to the
> dopamine systems which are heavily involved in attention
> control. Cafeine operates intracellularly on the
> phosphodiesterase system shutting down the internal response to
> any of the catecholamines and even the indolamines. A bit
> blunt.

Thank you for your response, John...even if I'm going to have to
look up a few of those words <g>. I have some questions on a sort
of related matter I'd like to ask you, if you're available?

I can can be found in the cotse irc channel, if you remember...

--
-=Mara=-
"Arguing on Usenet is like running in the Special Olympics.
Even if you win, you're still retarded."

John M Price PhD

unread,
Feb 7, 2004, 11:40:09 AM2/7/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond.

Correspond to what?

This
: was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic.

Sorry, I thought facts should be involved. If you can't handle that, as
facts are certainly NOT politically correct, and if you can't afford to be
wrong due to your own 'issues', quit now.

Please keep it that way I
: don't want to get sucked into a flame war.On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,

Are you a clam?

: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:

: >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: >: The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
: >: diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.
: >
: >Well, all medications do so. Just what is your point?

: TThe point was statd in the first sentence- don't use treatments as
: diagnostic tools. If you went to a hospital with chest pains, would
: you like the cardiac surgeon to cut you open, do a bypass without
: testing first? (when all you had was gas) or would you like to just be
: given antacid and told to go home? (when you may have blocked
: artieries?- you might not make it back for surgery)

Sorry, but your analogy fails, and does so badly.

Medications are *not* surgery. The effects are, for the most part,
transient. A knife would is not.

The diagnosticprocedures for heart problems are well worked out, from the
level of the electrophysiology to actual imaging, sans surgery, of the
arterial blockages.

: > Also simply


: >: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.
: >
: >Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
: >psychology.

: you happen to be incorrect. ADHD and LDS are similar disorders,
: however the correct treatments may be different.

So, too, bipolar and schizophrenia. Dx by medication there works quite
well. Your point, again?

: >Just what data do you think you have, anyway, for this crap?

: Will my life experience suffice,

No, not at all.

and having done reading and lit
: reviews suffice?

Depends on the quality of that ressearch.

[snip Hx]

: Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but


: you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
: as each other.

ADHD yes, LDS, no.

: >: treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I


: >: would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course,
: >
: >Starting from base zero, with behavioral manifestations representing a
: >possible error in various neurotransmitter systems, just how the hell else
: >would *you* proceed, other than testing your hypotheses about those very
: >self same systems?

: I would perform established diagnostic tests ( they do exist) to
: undertand what the problem is.That is what professionals such as
: Psychologists, Speech Pathologists,, and Special Education
: Specialists do.
: REmember in Science its: Observe, Identify, Hypothesis, then test.

Yes, and one of those tests is a medication trial. If it fails, try the
next most likely medication. Even within a solid Dx, such as depression,
various medications can be more effective for some, and others not so
well. One must try them otherwise their effectiveness in any one
individual is never known.

: Again let me reiterate I welcome a respectful, healthy discussion.

I really don't give two squirts. I am interesetd in the information.

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.

--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

Best viewed in monospaced font.
_/ , .
, -' ) ( \-------.,' (\_________________________
, ,-/ | /\_) ) \/ ,' _.----------------------,\
,', /, | / >--. ,) / /\\
/ , //|,' /' '\--'\\) /,' \\ ` ` ,
/ , // || ,' (.--^( `') // \\ \
( , // ||,___,-' (__\\ '^^^' // \\ ` ,
\ // ||--.__ ( \ `^--) _____.-'/ \\ \,
>'/ ||, ( \|_(\-' ,' \\
/, || \ \ / \\ ,
(/ || \ ) ,'( \\ \
drawn by: Malkav: pam...@leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu
"The devil made me do it!"

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 12:45:32 PM2/7/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:36:14 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
> <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >news:rpn720hm6c88qi9po...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:00:25 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
> >> <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:1pb62013f0b8hgbi1...@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:11:38 GMT, "Gene Douglas"
> >> >> <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"-=Be4U=-" <be...@no-address.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:Xns9486838A6E47Cbe4u@foo_blah_bar.com...
> >> >> >> "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> delighted us to no end by
> >> >> >> taking a lime green crayon and scribbling in
> >> >> >> news:XntUb.3874$A35....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com, on the
> >> >> >> hallowed day of Thu 05 Feb 2004 07:34:15a:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> [...]
>
> >And if you are concerned with side effects of medication, possibly EEG
> >neurofeedback would be preferable. In that case, diagnosis isn't
necessary.
> >You simply present the symptoms you would like to lose, and there are two
> >paths to choose from after that.

> The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
> diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.

Sometimes that's a good thing, given the alternatives. If I have a cold, I
take a decongestant, knowing that a cold is incurable. If I have diabetes,
I take insulin and perhaps other medications, for the rest of my life,
knowing it isn't a cure.

Also simply
> treating symptoms can mask the real problem. For instance if the
> person suffers from an LDS and is evaluated through a series of
> medications other indicators may not be accounted for, and the real
> problem not dealt with. This can be problematic if the person has
> both ADHD as well as an LDS.

> EEB Neurofeedback sounds like a form of Biofeedback, and it is not my
> intention to dismiss that, However, I believe before any type of
> treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I
> would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course, this better
> equips the person to evaluate options, and address unexpected
> situations that come up.

What's in a name. A rose by any other name would smell the same. It is a
diagnosis, but by a different nomenclature. It might be a diagnosis of
inattentiveness, with high theta and low SMR. Different name, but the
object is to remove the problem.

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 1:01:23 PM2/7/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com...

> Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond. This
> was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic. Please keep it that way I
> don't want to get sucked into a flame war.

He is an experimental psychologist. (Though the laws of CA don't allow the
title psychologist without certain requirements for a licensed clinician.)

On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,
> John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
>
> >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> >: The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
> >: diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.
> >
> >Well, all medications do so. Just what is your point?
>
> TThe point was statd in the first sentence- don't use treatments as
> diagnostic tools. If you went to a hospital with chest pains, would
> you like the cardiac surgeon to cut you open, do a bypass without
> testing first? (when all you had was gas) or would you like to just be
> given antacid and told to go home? (when you may have blocked
> artieries?- you might not make it back for surgery)

Your metaphor doesn't hold up, as you are speaking of a fatal illness that
may suddenly become acute. We are speaking of a chronic illness with
non-fatal symptoms. It is very common for psychiatrists to make a tentative
diagnosis of say, schizophrenia, try several medications that eventually
don't work, and then change the diagnosis to say, bipolar disorder. If meds
for that work, then the dx was probably right. If not, then maybe it's a
depressive DO c/ psychotic symptoms. Try some antidepressants, etc. (maybe
not the best example, since antidepressants have already been tried for
bipolar.)


> >
> > Also simply
> >: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.
> >
> >Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
> >psychology.
> you happen to be incorrect. ADHD and LDS are similar disorders,
> however the correct treatments may be different.

> >Just what data do you think you have, anyway, for this crap?
> Will my life experience suffice, and having done reading and lit
> reviews suffice?

> When I was younger people (teachers and familiy members) thought I was
> hyperactive, At the time medication wasn not used. As I mentioned in
> an earlier post when I went back to college to finish up and write my
> thesis, and was tested they found out I actually suffer from some LDS.
>
> Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but
> you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
> as each other.

Are you saying LD's, as in learning disabilities?

If so, I can assure you a stimulant wouldn't relieve a learning disability.
And if you did have an LD, what would your treatment be?

> >: treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I
> >: would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course,
> >
> >Starting from base zero, with behavioral manifestations representing a
> >possible error in various neurotransmitter systems, just how the hell
else
> >would *you* proceed, other than testing your hypotheses about those very
> >self same systems?

> I would perform established diagnostic tests ( they do exist) to
> undertand what the problem is.That is what professionals such as
> Psychologists, Speech Pathologists,, and Special Education
> Specialists do.
> REmember in Science its: Observe, Identify, Hypothesis, then test.
>

It would be fairly simple to test for, say, dyslexia. Just asking a few
questions would usually suffice. If you can read but not do even simple
math, or vise versa, the same would apply.

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 1:05:21 PM2/7/04
to

"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:40246f62$0$49528$d36...@news.calweb.com...

> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<iiXUb.32588$ib6....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas
<gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> : Similarity of symptoms isn't the issue in the above case. ADHD occurs
> : because a part of the brain, which you could compare to power brakes, is
> : asleep. A stimulant wakes it up. If another disorder didn't involve
that,
> : then a stimulant wouldn't have that effect.
>
> GeneDoug, take a course in neurophysiology, please.
>
> Dopamine (DA), in most synapses, is inhibitory in nature. Amphetamine
> facilitates DA, hence increasing its ability to inhibit other neurons.

Yet, one doesn't want to inhibit the whole brain. One theory of ADHD is
that the sufferer doesn't get a good night's sleep. Many are light
sleepers, early awakeners, or snore.

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 1:07:33 PM2/7/04
to

"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:40246bdb$0$49528$d36...@news.calweb.com...

There are people, who can't afford Ritalin, who give their kid coffee.
Doesn't always work, but sometimes it does.

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 1:15:35 PM2/7/04
to

"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:40246eaf$0$49528$d36...@news.calweb.com...

> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<rpn720hm6c88qi9po...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> [ADHD medication patient trials}
> : Again this method has the same problem as the coffee test, in that it
> : is presumptively positive.
>
> Not if specific behaviors. pre- and post-test are involved.
>
> The synmpathomimetics do increase attention skills, even in normals. The
> military used them for NORAD watchers who, after about one half hour,
> became board watching the radar and missed simulated ICBMs attacking the
> US mainland. Amphetamines moved this line to four hours.

And the military gives them so pilots can work 24 hour days, and soldiers
can push themselves beyond exhaustion. College students use them to cram
all night for tests, if they have not studied in the past month. However,
they are often exhausted by test time, take another one, and then respond
carelessly, like a bipolar in his manic stage.


>
> In addition thre are inherant risks of
> : using medications.
>
> And you think the physicians do not know this?

High blood pressure is a counterindication. However, a new drug, Strattera,
doesn't have this effect.


>
> While you may relieve the syptoms the underlying
> : problem could bemasked or even exaserbated,
>
> Oh bulllshit. This is an assumption that is data free. Thanks, Freud.
> Just when the hell will you ever die!

If another problem were exacerbated, that would be diagnostic information,
worth reporting. And of course, the solution is to stop taking the
medication until the next appointment. It is possible that a person is
hypomanic and doesn't notice it, because he sees the extra energy as a good
thing. And a stimulant would add to this, rather than calming him or
improving his concentration.

John M Price PhD

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Feb 7, 2004, 1:31:53 PM2/7/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <TJ9Vb.4277$rr3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:

: "mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message


: news:e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com...
: > Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond. This
: > was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic. Please keep it that way I
: > don't want to get sucked into a flame war.

: He is an experimental psychologist. (Though the laws of CA don't allow the
: title psychologist without certain requirements for a licensed clinician.)

I hold no license, so I am not a psychologist. I have a doctorate in
psychology, though.

: > Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but


: > you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
: > as each other.

: Are you saying LD's, as in learning disabilities?

OK, that makes sense. He mistyped the plural of LD, which should be LDs.

Thanks.


(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.

--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people
are right more than half of the time.
- E. B. White

mike

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Feb 7, 2004, 2:12:27 PM2/7/04
to
On 07 Feb 2004 18:31:53 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:

>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <TJ9Vb.4277$rr3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:


>
>: "mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>: news:e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com...
>: > Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond. This
>: > was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic. Please keep it that way I
>: > don't want to get sucked into a flame war.
>
>: He is an experimental psychologist. (Though the laws of CA don't allow the
>: title psychologist without certain requirements for a licensed clinician.)
>
>I hold no license, so I am not a psychologist. I have a doctorate in
>psychology, though.
>
>: > Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but
>: > you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
>: > as each other.
>
>: Are you saying LD's, as in learning disabilities?

I meant learning disabilities.


>
>OK, that makes sense. He mistyped the plural of LD, which should be LDs.

Actually in the literate it is often referred to as LDS.

John M Price PhD

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Feb 7, 2004, 2:28:18 PM2/7/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <12ea20hvsjdautc78...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: >OK, that makes sense. He mistyped the plural of LD, which should be LDs.

: Actually in the literate it is often referred to as LDS.

Please space your comments. It makes it easier to read.

Usually a capitol (here an S) is indicative of a word in the abbreviation,
not a pluralization. Of course typesetters do make mistakes.


(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.

--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

Group selection is probably a good approximation for some situations. But
like all physics theories come down to atoms or parts of atoms, biology
has to come down to individuals or sometimes parts of individuals.
- Dr. David Rosen on sci.bio.evolution

mike

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Feb 7, 2004, 2:30:26 PM2/7/04
to
On 07 Feb 2004 16:40:09 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:

>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:


>: Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond.
>
>Correspond to what?

The type of agrumetnation, and approach to intellectual exchanges
that I have encountered in dealing with others who have postgraduate
education. That includes 10 years at an University.


> This
>: was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic.
>
>Sorry, I thought facts should be involved. If you can't handle that, as
>facts are certainly NOT politically correct, and if you can't afford to be
>wrong due to your own 'issues', quit now.

I have no problem with facts, and I don't have issues. Freud would say
you have the issues, and are projecting.


>Please keep it that way I
>: don't want to get sucked into a flame war.On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,
>
>Are you a clam?
>
>: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
>
>: >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <70l820piq48brcv62...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: >: The point that I was making was that treatments should not be used as
>: >: diagnistic tools, since they could create complications.
>: >
>: >Well, all medications do so. Just what is your point?
>
>: TThe point was statd in the first sentence- don't use treatments as
>: diagnostic tools. If you went to a hospital with chest pains, would
>: you like the cardiac surgeon to cut you open, do a bypass without
>: testing first? (when all you had was gas) or would you like to just be
>: given antacid and told to go home? (when you may have blocked
>: artieries?- you might not make it back for surgery)
>
>Sorry, but your analogy fails, and does so badly.
>
>Medications are *not* surgery. The effects are, for the most part,
>transient. A knife would is not.

The analogy is valid, it attempts to make the point by using an
extreme example. What I was hoping you would understand is that two
condition may have similiar symptoms, but the UNDERLYING (to clarify
for you, since you though that I was making a Freudian reference
before) can be very diferent, and that ONLY addressing symptoms can
make the proble worse. Also, the effects of misdiagnosis of these
conditions is not transient if has major potentially lifelong
consequences- ADHD and LDS are both considered disabilities under tha
law, which means that they are lifelong conditions.

>The diagnosticprocedures for heart problems are well worked out, from the
>level of the electrophysiology to actual imaging, sans surgery, of the
>arterial blockages.
>
>: > Also simply
>: >: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.
>: >
>: >Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
>: >psychology.
>
>: you happen to be incorrect. ADHD and LDS are similar disorders,
>: however the correct treatments may be different.
>
>So, too, bipolar and schizophrenia. Dx by medication there works quite
>well. Your point, again?

People I know in the field will try meds only AFter a diagnosis. ALso
the problem I have with the "coffee test" is that I have only seen it
referred to as being used by parents. My fear that it may not be
properly administered, of not followed up on.


>: >Just what data do you think you have, anyway, for this crap?
>
>: Will my life experience suffice,
>
>No, not at all.

Interesting and you supposedly are experimetnal psychologist? REview
your notes from social research classes.


> and having done reading and lit
>: reviews suffice?
>
>Depends on the quality of that ressearch.

All peer reviewed


>[snip Hx]
>
>: Do you know anything about these disorders? I mean no disrespect, but
>: you sound a little uninformed. LDS and ADHD are often misdiagnosed
>: as each other.
>
>ADHD yes, LDS, no.

well I know about LDS but not much about ADHD


>: >: treatment is undertaken, it is best to know what problem is, so I
>: >: would recommend a diagnosis before undertaking any course,
>: >
>: >Starting from base zero, with behavioral manifestations representing a
>: >possible error in various neurotransmitter systems, just how the hell else
>: >would *you* proceed, other than testing your hypotheses about those very
>: >self same systems?
>
>: I would perform established diagnostic tests ( they do exist) to
>: undertand what the problem is.That is what professionals such as
>: Psychologists, Speech Pathologists,, and Special Education
>: Specialists do.
>: REmember in Science its: Observe, Identify, Hypothesis, then test.
>
>Yes, and one of those tests is a medication trial. If it fails, try the
>next most likely medication. Even within a solid Dx, such as depression,
>various medications can be more effective for some, and others not so
>well. One must try them otherwise their effectiveness in any one
>individual is never known.
>
>: Again let me reiterate I welcome a respectful, healthy discussion.
>
>I really don't give two squirts. I am interesetd in the information.

Yeah but when you sound like an you degrade the exchange of
information. YOu can even test using GLM, or actually a probit
model might be better

mike

unread,
Feb 7, 2004, 2:35:57 PM2/7/04
to
On 07 Feb 2004 16:40:09 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:

>I


>
>Sorry, but your analogy fails, and does so badly.
>
>Medications are *not* surgery. The effects are, for the most part,
>transient. A knife would is not.
>
>The diagnosticprocedures for heart problems are well worked out, from the
>level of the electrophysiology to actual imaging, sans surgery, of the
>arterial blockages.
>
>: > Also simply
>: >: treating symptoms can mask the real problem.
>: >
>: >Again, an assumption based on faulty reasoning of teh dynamic schol of
>: >psychology.
>
>: you happen to be incorrect. ADHD and LDS are similar disorders,
>: however the correct treatments may be different.
>
>So, too, bipolar and schizophrenia. Dx by medication there works quite
>well. Your point, again?

Actually the problem with this is that this would be done under CLOSE
supervision of a licensed Psychiatrist, and as far as I know the
condition has to be identifed first ( or the Malpractice attorneries,
and insurance companies-both health and malpractice- would hope).

mike

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Feb 7, 2004, 2:44:41 PM2/7/04
to
On 07 Feb 2004 19:28:18 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:

>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <12ea20hvsjdautc78...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:


>: >OK, that makes sense. He mistyped the plural of LD, which should be LDs.
>
>: Actually in the literate it is often referred to as LDS.
>
>Please space your comments. It makes it easier to read.
>

NO problem

>Usually a capitol (here an S) is indicative of a word in the abbreviation,
>not a pluralization. Of course typesetters do make mistakes.
>

I am not sure, but I think the reason for LDS is that is a generic
term (sort of like a cold ) and many times a person will have several
"conditions". For example I was identified with problems in short
term memory, information processing, visual recognition. as well as
others. So I think it may have just become the venacular. ( I could
be wrong)

John M Price PhD

unread,
Feb 7, 2004, 4:08:45 PM2/7/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <85ea20htabnh88g8p...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: On 07 Feb 2004 16:40:09 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
: wrote:

: >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: >: Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond.
: >
: >Correspond to what?
: The type of agrumetnation, and approach to intellectual exchanges
: that I have encountered in dealing with others who have postgraduate
: education. That includes 10 years at an University.

So what?

: > This


: >: was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic.
: >
: >Sorry, I thought facts should be involved. If you can't handle that, as
: >facts are certainly NOT politically correct, and if you can't afford to be
: >wrong due to your own 'issues', quit now.
: I have no problem with facts, and I don't have issues. Freud would say
: you have the issues, and are projecting.

LOL! You don't know anything about the fraud he was. Read Crews,
Webster, and a hoard of others.

: >Please keep it that way I


: >: don't want to get sucked into a flame war.On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,
: >
: >Are you a clam?

Well, are you a clam?
: >
: >Medications are *not* surgery. The effects are, for the most part,

: >transient. A knife would is not.
: The analogy is valid, it attempts to make the point by using an

You have now two people telling you that the analogy failed. Yet you
persist.

: >So, too, bipolar and schizophrenia. Dx by medication there works quite
: >well. Your point, again?

: People I know in the field will try meds only AFter a diagnosis. ALso

Yes, and that Dx is tentative, pending response to the medication.

: the problem I have with the "coffee test" is that I have only seen it


: referred to as being used by parents. My fear that it may not be
: properly administered, of not followed up on.

My problem with it is based on the pharmacology of cafeine.


(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.

--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

A birth superstition:
Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace,
Wednesday's child is sorry and sad,
Thursday's child is merry and glad,
Friday's child is loving and giving,
And Saturday's child must work for a living,
But the child that is born on the Sabbath Day
Is bonny and merry and glad and gay.

John M Price PhD

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Feb 7, 2004, 4:11:21 PM2/7/04
to
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <e8fa20lk1t9a1kd8j...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: On 07 Feb 2004 16:40:09 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
: wrote:

All Dx is tentative. This is routinely done on an outpatient basis,
though with schizophrenia like behavior, even if caused by manic
psychosis, it is more likely in a hospital. Note, though, that
haloperidol (as an example) does correct psychoses, irrespective of the
source.

(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683

It is the job of science to illuminate the world that exists. It is too
much to ask of science to give substance to fictions.
- Lorne Gilsig in usenet article <34EB53...@earthlink.net>

mike

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Feb 7, 2004, 5:28:50 PM2/7/04
to
On 07 Feb 2004 21:08:45 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:

>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <85ea20htabnh88g8p...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: On 07 Feb 2004 16:40:09 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
>: wrote:
>
>: >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article <e4t820dqis2oetgh9...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: >: Okay you claim to be a PhD, yet your argumetns don't correspond.
>: >
>: >Correspond to what?
>: The type of agrumetnation, and approach to intellectual exchanges
>: that I have encountered in dealing with others who have postgraduate
>: education. That includes 10 years at an University.
>
>So what?

nevermind


>
>: > This
>: >: was a civil exchage of ideas on a topic.
>: >
>: >Sorry, I thought facts should be involved. If you can't handle that, as
>: >facts are certainly NOT politically correct, and if you can't afford to be
>: >wrong due to your own 'issues', quit now.
>: I have no problem with facts, and I don't have issues. Freud would say
>: you have the issues, and are projecting.
>
>LOL! You don't know anything about the fraud he was. Read Crews,
>Webster, and a hoard of others.
>

Actually I don't subscribe to Freud-That's why I attributed the "Dx"
to him (and not me). Though I will admit I always enjoyed when I had
to read his stuff. it's good for a laugh. His methodology appeared to
be as state of the art as Karl Marx's (sarcastic interlude).
Having said that, if you have any specific articles or refs Please
let me know. I'm currently looking for reading material


>: >Please keep it that way I
>: >: don't want to get sucked into a flame war.On 07 Feb 2004 04:58:28 GMT,
>: >
>: >Are you a clam?
>
>Well, are you a clam?
>: >

I am not a malc

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 5:38:55 PM2/7/04
to

"John M Price PhD" <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote in message
news:40253c52$0$49534$d36...@news.calweb.com...

> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<12ea20hvsjdautc78...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net>
wrote:

> Group selection is probably a good approximation for some situations. But


> like all physics theories come down to atoms or parts of atoms, biology
> has to come down to individuals or sometimes parts of individuals.
> - Dr. David Rosen on sci.bio.evolution

Actually, the writer appears not to be aware of the gestalt. It's like
saying a house comes down to a collection of boards and nails. But putting
those materials together in one pattern or another or another creates
different effects, and takes a lot of effort to do.

The principle of reducto adsurdum (I think) suggests that if you try to
describe a thing by its parts, you are not describing the thing at all.

If you describe a liver, you are still describing a lot of molecules, which
would not function as a liver unless arranged together.


Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 5:41:15 PM2/7/04
to

"mike" <fit...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:5nfa20psu68815l0f...@4ax.com...

> On 07 Feb 2004 19:28:18 GMT, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In sci.psychology.psychotherapy article
<12ea20hvsjdautc78...@4ax.com> mike <fit...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> >: >OK, that makes sense. He mistyped the plural of LD, which should be
LDs.
> >
> >: Actually in the literate it is often referred to as LDS.
> >
> >Please space your comments. It makes it easier to read.
> >
> NO problem
>
> >Usually a capitol (here an S) is indicative of a word in the
abbreviation,
> >not a pluralization. Of course typesetters do make mistakes.
> >
> I am not sure, but I think the reason for LDS is that is a generic
> term (sort of like a cold ) and many times a person will have several
> "conditions". For example I was identified with problems in short
> term memory, information processing, visual recognition. as well as
> others. So I think it may have just become the venacular. ( I could
> be wrong)

He's saying that the capital S suggests that S is the initial letter of a
third word. It's LDs.

There is a treatment for short term memory and attentiveness, called
BrainTrainer. You put it on your computer, and use it to memorize
successively longer strings of numbers (Kind of like Simon Says.)

Gene Douglas

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Feb 7, 2004, 5:47:54 PM2/7/04