(fwd) Re: effectiveness of psychotherapy
John M Price, PhD
{I am so tempted to crosspost this to news.groups, but they've been through
enough lately.}
Ok, Brad, please explain this post.
Is this, too, going to be called (by you) an excellent example of the
appropriateness of your responses and posts in general?
A couple of people, discussing their kids' problems, and you label one a
CHILD KILLER?
Is this what you meant by the moderators keeping track of threads, as they
would of course see just how important and appropriate your CHILD KILLER
response here is? Seems to me to be the first name calling is yours. It
usually has been, so nothing's new.
Is this the reason you wish to suppress the moderated group, so you can leap
into a discussion by therapists, or clients, or just plain folk, and call
people CHILD KILLERS? You could not do that in a moderated group, of course.
Let's see, you've been down the nazi line, now CHILD KILLER is your new
thing? Oh, and let's not forget idolatry.
Do you do this in your neighborhood? Literally leap through windows
accusing folk of being CHILD KILLERS as you might have overheard their
discussing a therapist for their kid's school difficulties?
Do you barge into parties at the drop af the term psychotherapist and yell
out CHILD KILLER?
So please explain how this post is important at all, since you've destroyed
any message by calling a discussant a CHILD KILLER.
Then please destroy your modem. You have finally aptly demonstrated that
you do not deserve any other soapbox outside of the ones that actually held
soap. Go to a local park and yell CHILD KILLER at passing motorists,
cyclists, and please, please, any and all police you see. They do have
psychology in their training of late.
And yet, you are still an associate member of the APA.
Something seems terribly wrong with that picture.
I am finally truely disgusted at the fact that I will likely have to read
you future posts to sppm. Truely disgusted.
>From: good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee)
>Newsgroups: sci.psychology.psychotherapy
>Subject: Re: effectiveness of psychotherapy
>Date: 30 Jul 1997 16:33:03 GMT
>Organization: Client Advocates
>Lines: 116
>Message-ID: <good_brad-300...@ts002d02.min-mn.concentric.net>
>References: <33DF14...@binus.com> <33fd932a...@news.pipeline.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: ts002d02.min-mn.concentric.net
>Xref: calwebnnrp sci.psychology.psychotherapy:27478
>
>Dear Leslie,
> There are good professional clinicians and bad ones. It is possible to
>have good, well-selected, well-trained other mental health professionals
>("parapros") and there are bad ones. **Fact** is, this area has certainly
>not been sorted out enough for us to typically know when we really need
>people who are "very highly trained" (whatever this might really mean) and
>when we don't. We have not even begun to investigate the utility of
>well-selected and well-trained "paras" and compared them to care provided
>by the supposed "advance" professionals. Carl Rogers (one of the best
>clinical researchers and professionals ever) supported the idea of
>"paras".
> THE FACTS (despite what YOU may *like*, Leslie): There are only a few
>controlled studies comparing other reasonable helpers and professionals --
>and even these were NOT well-trained "paras". This data is decades old
>but it supported MORE use of "paras." Any categorical pronouncement that
>we need people with high graduate degrees to provide all good services is
>simply NOT DATA-BASED and is a blind and recklessly *irresponsible*
>assertion. It is not scientifically justified and is NOT acceptable. In
>the long run the pronouncement you seem to make ( to "use only people who
>have high degress because only they know what they are doing") will harm
>the advancement of science and **harm clients** (and KILL CHILDREN). Good
>"paras" for many cases could well be more accessible and more affordable
>and equally effective -- possibly more effective. They could well serve a
>preventive role as well, allowing for earlier treatment. ***You cannot
>cite any evidence that well indicates otherwise.*** The BEST indirect
>indicators we have (and he BEST evidence we have) supports a much larger
>role for "paras" (WHO **ARE** WELL-SELECTED AND WELL TRAINED).
> YOU JUST WORSHIP DEGREES, LESLIE, SO YOU CAN WORSHIP YOURSELF. Your
>blanket statements are in fact extrordinarily ignorant, unscientific, and
>irresponsible.
>CHILD KILLER !!!
>
>In article <33fd932a...@news.pipeline.com>, lpa...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
>> >Adrianne Stone <st...@binus.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I am not a professional, but I have been upset about the remark that
>> >professional psychotherapists are responsible for killing children, so I
>> >have to speak up.
>>
>> Speaking up here in support of professional psychotherapy is hazardous
>> at times, so I compliment you on taking the risk.
>>
>> > I have been lurking here for a while but now I want to
>> >share something that happened to our family.
>> >
>> >Our son (now age 16) was upset over some things that happened. First he
>> >lost his girlfriend, then he failed and class. His best friend was
>> >getting involved with drugs. My son was taking them too, we found out.
>> >He went to see a counselor at our church and that person told him to put
>> >his problems in God's hands and tried to get him more involved in church
>> >youth activities. Maybe he didn't mean to do this, but my son got the
>> >idea that he had insufficient faith and felt uncomfortable around the
>> >other kids in the church group. He got steadily more depressed and
>> >finally attempted suicide. Then he was hospitalized and received
>> >treatment from a professional on staff there.
>> >
>> >This psychotherapist was great! He became very close to my son, gave him
>> >real hope and helped him find ways of coping with his problems when they
>> >would pile up on him. In family therapy he also helped us learn how to
>> >be there for him. Things are not perfect now, but they are much better.
>> >
>> >I just want to say that the contrast between the professional help and
>> >the "parapro" was like night and day. I only wish we had gotten the
>> >proper help a lot sooner. It would have saved us a lot of grief. I am
>> >very scared when I think about what might have happened if my son's
>> >attempt on his life had been successful.
>> >
>> >Thanks for listening.
>> >
>> >Adrianne (grateful to professional psychotherapists)
>>
>> You've been through a lot with your son, Adrianne. I'm glad he's
>> doing better now. And I know exactly what you mean.
>>
>> My son first attempted suicide at age 7 1/2 because he was going
>> downhill in a school where his problems weren't understood and no one
>> knew how to deal with him. All the well-meaning people in the world
>> -- even those who are 'certified' to do what they do -- are no
>> substitute for professionals who _really_ know what to do and how to
>> do it.
>>
>> It took us a few years (unfortunately -- and we had to go to federal
>> court to do it) to get our son into a better placement where he was
>> with people who knew how to help him. During those few years, he
>> suffered terribly (as did we). He totally shut down on school and the
>> world and went from being a brilliant happy child to a kid who felt
>> that he couldn't do anything right because he was such a failure in
>> school. I can't even recall now how many times we had to have him on
>> suicide watch. There is no getting those years back, but we are
>> grateful that he is alive and starting to do better after a long,
>> long, time. And we, like you, are grateful to the mental health
>> professionals (psychiatrists and psychologists) who had the knowledge
>> and skills to help him and who helped some very wonderful educators
>> learn how to help him.
>>
>> As a direct result of what we went through with him and because of two
>> teenagers who committed suicide because they didn't get the help they
>> needed (and yes, religious views/church came into play in one of those
>> cases), I started an advocacy project six years ago. And I go
>> absolutely ballistic when I see kids become suicidal because they've
>> been mishandled or had counseling or help from people who don't
>> understand what the problems really are. When Brad tries to present
>> himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
>> talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
>> It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
>> -- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
>>
>> Thank you for posting.
>>
>> Leslie
>
>--
>For a critique of the major problems in the counseling/psychotherapy field
AND for SOLUTIONS to these problems, see my web site:
>
>http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html Major professors in the field have
spoken highly of the paper you shall find at that site.
>-- end of forwarded message --
>
>
>--
>John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
> Atheist# 683
>
>PLUNDERER'S THEME
>(to Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius)
>
>Pillage, rape, and loot and burn, but all in moderation.
>If you do the things we say, then you'll soon rule the nation.
>Kill your foes and enemies and then kill your relations.
>Pillage, rape, and loot and burn, but all in moderation.
>
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Atheist# 683
Bronte26f
This recent debate has been engaging. I would like to share some of my
views and questions.
First, I think it is impossible to say that all Ph.D.'s or all "paras" are
better than the other. Truly, it seems that each individual therapist
must be evaluated according to his or her own abilities. I believe most
are well trained and well intentioned; nonetheless, I think we are bound
to see some therapists better skilled in certain areas than others. I
think the true problem is that consumers or recipients of mental health
services are not aware of how to assess their therapit's abilities.
I agree that a Ph.D. does not ensure the highest quality services.
Indeed, some social workers have seemed more qualified to treat patients
than several psychologists I've met. This brings me to my next question.
What is the purpose (clinically speaking) of the advanced degree in
psychology? And, why is it that a social worker with a masters can
clinically treat patients, but a person with a masters in psychology can
not?
Generally speaking, logic demands that the more education one has received
the more likely that the person will provide high quality services.
However, again, I believe each therapist must be individually evaluated.
SB
W.E. 'Bill' Goodrich, PhD
In article <19970802105...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Bronte26f (Bron...@aol.com) writes:
> This recent debate has been engaging. I would like to share some of my
> views and questions.
> First, I think it is impossible to say that all Ph.D.'s or all "paras" are
> better than the other. Truly, it seems that each individual therapist
> must be evaluated according to his or her own abilities. I believe most
> are well trained and well intentioned; nonetheless, I think we are bound
> to see some therapists better skilled in certain areas than others. I
> think the true problem is that consumers or recipients of mental health
> services are not aware of how to assess their therapit's abilities.
Even the researchers find it hard to agree on the necessary metrics.
> I agree that a Ph.D. does not ensure the highest quality services.
> Indeed, some social workers have seemed more qualified to treat patients
> than several psychologists I've met.
Yes and no. Social Workers fill a specialized niche.
> This brings me to my next question.
> What is the purpose (clinically speaking) of the advanced degree in
> psychology?
There is no CLINICAL purpose for the advanced degree. The functions are
administrative, political, and even social. It is a convenient (if
inaccurate) way to indicate a certain level and nature of background.
> And, why is it that a social worker with a masters can
> clinically treat patients, but a person with a masters in psychology
> can not?
The reason is largely historical. Before WWII, the psychologists started
out as College professors and researchers...Academics. And the academic
requirements reflect that background.
A Social Worker functions (in most jurisdictions) within a more limited
scope of psychotherapy, specialized functions for which the MSW degree
programs (supposedly) prepare them.
These, and other varieties of Licensed psychotherapists, meet the (in
some ways arbitrary) requirements that their own organizations CHOSE
as "qualifying" them. Thus, the qualifications for Psychologists,
Psychiartists, Clinical Social Workers, Marriage and Family Therapists,
Professional Counselors, and even Hypnotherapists do not bear much
relationship to each other. They aren't even consistent WITHIN a
category, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
> Generally speaking, logic demands that the more education one has
> received the more likely that the person will provide high quality
> services.
"Logic" demands no such thing. While it IS logical to assume that the
more education one completes the more suited one is to the ACADEMIC
world, it does not address the elements of TRAINING (a separate issue),
experience, and interpersonal skills which have been shown to make a
difference in quality of service.
> However, again, I believe each therapist must be individually evaluated.
Very true.
--
W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * bgoo...@nyx.net *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
Cognitee
P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
In article <5rocf3$2...@basement.replay.com>, "John M Price, PhD"
Cognitee
Dear John Price,
All who seek, through the spreading of unsupported myths or through
stating unfounded opinions OR through being deceptive *or by lying*, to
aid the clinical field to "justify" NOT doing *needed studies* is, in
effect, likely behaving in a way that is leading to the death of
children. This is very arguable and is my sincere view. AND: The APA
itself is so grossly negligent I am sure it could be sued.
P.S. **Important note**: The post you refer to was immediately cancelled
and replaced with one with more appropriate wording (WITHOUT THE WORDS
"child killer" in it). Few saw (or heard about) the post you referred to
(unfortunately one of you stinking moderators saw it). It was cancelled
almost immediately *BY ME*. ALMOST NO ONE SAW IT. I myself censored it
(in the interst of good taste ONLY). The mentioning of this post was
merely political and to try to again muddy my name. You should note that
it was cancelled. (Did you yourself ever see the post, John ??)
In article <5rocf3$2...@basement.replay.com>, "John M Price, PhD"
<jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
Cognitee
DEAR LESLIE,
With such a young son attempting suicide, I would suspect that all in
the family (including you) are quite possibly disturbed. You illustrate
disturbed behavior by inappropriate posts and inappropriately presenting
material out-of-context. I wonder what people really think of a woman
WHOSE KID (AT AGE 7) ATTEMPTS SUICIDE and then she whines about it
out-of-context to newsgroups who have not seen the posts ?? FOR SEVERAL
REASONS I CONDIDER YOU SICK, Leslie. You are.
JUST to show people how extremely out-of-context Leslie presents things
(to defend myself from this psychopathological person's attacks on my
character): The post where I called you a "child killer" was *in
reference to* you supporting false statements about the facts in the
field. Statements, that if believed, would hamper doing needed research
that would likely save lives. ( In any case, I cancelled this post
immediately and posted one with better wording. Almost no on saw the post
with bad wording, since I cancelled it immediately -- unfortunately one of
your pals did !!) I never called anyone else a "child killer." YOU
misrepresent things again to wrongly do (or attempt) character
assassination. Don't you wonder how it looks to the whole world to tell
them about personal, off-topic problems that they know nothing about? And
to behave in front of them in such unseemly ways ??!! KOOK.
P.S. Leslie: Don't worry. You and Peter have won. Whether moderation
passes or not, this will soon be YOUR turf. I shall not hang around with
a unseemly thug like you and a villianous thug like Peter Hood. You
simply are to sick and uncivil for me to deal with any further.
I DO URGE YOU AGAIN TO STOP THE OFF-TOPIC PERSOANL ATTACKS. TRY TO
REMEMBER: YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST THIS BEHAVIOR. YOU AND YOUR
PROPOSED "MODERATOR" FRIENDS WANT THINGS TO BE GOOD AND NOT LIKE THIS.
NOW TAKE ANY MEDS YOU MAY HAVE AND GO TO BED.
In article <340afdae....@news.pipeline.com>, lpa...@pipeline.com wrote:
> [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> L.P.]
>
>
> >good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
>
> >P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
> >for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
> >
> <taking a very deep breath here lest I use language that I generally
> reserve for private communications>
>
> Mr. Jesness:
>
> This thread began when a mother, Adrianne, talked about having a
> teenage son who had been suicidal and how a pastoral counselor had
> made matters worse. She noted at the beginning of her post that she
> was upset with remarks made (by you, although she didn't name you)
> about professionals killing children, and she felt she needed to speak
> up for professional psychotherapists as a grateful parent. So she
> expressed her appreciation to the professionals who had saved her
> child and helped him turn his life around.
>
> As a mother, I replied to her post, telling her about my son, who had
> attempted suicide because he was in an environment that didn't
> understand his problems and needs. I talked about how that experience
> had affected us and how it had left me determined to get other kids
> like my son the kind of high-level help they need. And I agreed with
> her stated appreciation for professionals and expressed my concerns
> about paraprofessionals who won't know when they're in over their
> heads.
>
> Publicly revealing that your child was suicidal or had attempted
> suicide at the age of 7 (and then had become suicidal on other
> occasions) is not an easy thing to do. It is not something I
> particularly relish talking about publicly as it is incredibly painful
> as a mother to watch your child suffer like that and live in fear that
> you won't be there the next time they decide to try to end it all.
> Even recalling those times is painful. There is no professional
> degree or license in the world that can make that situation any easier
> or less terrifying. This was not a 'professional' post from me to
> her -- it was one mother writing to another. It was a difficult one
> for me to write. I was not about to get into a detailed analysis of
> the professional issues about training, etc. there. My sole purpose
> was to offer her support and let her know that I shared her fears and
> appreciation.
>
> If you had an ounce -- even a scintilla -- of human decency, you would
> have recognized that that was a painfully personal post. If you even
> pretended at professional conduct, you would not have responded as you
> did.
>
> Instead, you decided to jump in and make your usual haranguing and
> harassing statements.
>
> In relatively rapid fire, you sent me three --- THREE -- posts in
> response to my post to that mother. And at the end of one of them,
> you called me "CHILD KILLER."
>
> A mother talks about trying to save her son's life and other kids'
> lives and you call her "CHILD KILLER."
>
> Note that I did not respond to you at that point or to any of those
> posts of yours. Nor will I. I privately e-mailed Bill Goodrich to
> tell him that I would be happy to discuss his reply and the
> professional issues at a later time and in another thread, but that
> thread was not a professional one for me. There is a time and a
> place, Mr. Jesness. That post was neither the time nor the place for
> your attacks, particularly the one "CHILD KILLER," which would never
> be appropriate, but was even less so in that thread.
>
> Note, too, that your posts to me probably discouraged other mothers
> and members of the public from sharing their experiences when they
> saw what you wrote to me. And I don't blame them. They have no
> safety in spp. And some of them aren't as strong as I am and have
> been devastated by your comments. Even I, as strong as I am, was
> numbed by your "CHILD KILLER."
>
> And yet some people feel that a 'no' vote on the CFV to create sppm is
> in order and that you are deserving of their sympathy. News.groupie
> Henrietta Thomas even said so in a.u.k. and implied that I'm a kook
> for nominating you for KotM. Had they had nominations for Bastard of
> the Month, I suspect that someone would have nominated you for that.
>
> [For those in news.groups or alt.support.tourette who did not see the
> original posts by Adrianne and myself, they are available in spp in
> the "effectiveness of psychotherapy" thread. For those in a.s.t. who
> may be confused by the reference to a CFV, there is currently a call
> for votes to create a second, but moderated psychotherapy newsgroup,
> sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated (sppm), and the folks in
> news.groups have participated in the discussion, where Mr. Jesness
> has frequently screamed that those in support of sppm are attempting
> to censor him and that his attacks are always necessary and relevant.]
>
> As a mother who nearly lost her child, your insensitivity is hurtful.
> But I have come to expect insensitivity from you, Mr. Jesness.
>
> As a professional, your conduct disgusts me. But I have come to
> expect unprofessional conduct from you, Mr. Jesness.
>
> As a real-life advocate for children with disabilities whom you have
> labeled as "spastics" and "retards" or characterized as barking like
> dogs, I have shared some of your posts with some of the kids, to show
> them the kind of ignorance and garbage they may have to face in their
> lives because they were born with a genetic condition that makes them
> different, in some ways, from their peers. Needless to say, the kids
> aren't too happy with your posts and your characterizations of them.
> They find it somewhat incredible that you claim any professional
> credentials in psychology or counseling. I agree with them.
>
> And for the benefit of all those mothers who ached and/or cried and/or
> fumed when they read your characterization of their children (your
> characterizations of these kids were apparently mentioned in
> alt.support.tourette), and for the benefit of those who have been
> intimidated from posting by your egregious conduct in spp, and at the
> request of my daughter, I have decided to let her (a 12 year-old who
> according to you is a "spastic" and "retard" and who barks like a dog)
> respond to you. Here is her message. It was neither previewed nor
> edited by me.
>
> ----------- begin included messsage --------------
> Dear Mr. Jesness,
> I have a question for you. Do you have any friends? Does
> anyone like you? Why hasn't your wife left you yet? You are the
> biggest asshole in the world! How can you think children with
> disabilities are retards? It's one thing to think it but to actually
> say it! You're SUCH a loser! Lets say you have kids and one of them
> has a disability. Would you think they're a retard or a spastic? You
> probably would. I have Tourette Syndrome. I'm not a retard. I'm an
> honors student, a softball champion, a second degree blackbelt in Tae
> Kwon Do, a champion fighter in three states, plus a good cook. I'm
> only 12! I've accomplished more in my whole life than you ever will.
> And for another thing, STOP calling my mother a child killer! She
> helps children. You just put them down. You're the child killer!So you
> better stop calling my Mom that. Remember, I'm a second degree black
> belt and a champion fighter. Leave my Mom alone.
> Yours only in hate,
> Loren Packer-Hopke
> ----------- end included message ------------------
>
>
> Well, looking at what she just wrote (and yes, she typed it herself,
> thereby demonstrating that she's also superior to you in her spelling
> and typing skills), I don't like the implied threat and will discuss
> that with her, but I told her that I wouldn't edit her at all, and I
> won't. FWIW, I don't think she really would attack you, Mr. Jesness.
> She really does have too much discipline for that. She's just angry.
> As are a lot of other adults and children you've hurt through your spp
> posts.
>
> Loren is right. You _are_ a loser. But I will not let you hurt
> others with your comments. I will NEVER be silent in the face of such
> ignorant and discriminatory comments. Henrietta Thomas and those who
> don't understand should spend a month trying to pick up the pieces of
> the hurt you cause in spp. But I doubt anyone would write to them for
> support, as they would seemingly prefer to dictate to others and block
> people from creating a safe environment for patients and consumers to
> ask questions or express feelings.
>
> Someone talks about their kid trying to kill themselves and you call
> them "CHILD KILLER."
>
> And Ms. Thomas thinks you're deserving of sympathy. Incredible.
>
> I don't know what the phrase "For the Good of Usenet" means. I even
> posted an inquiry asking someone in news.groups to explain what that
> means.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, if "For the Good of Usenet" doesn't include
> stopping people like you from hurting others, then perhaps people have
> their priorities wrong, as there is no _thing_ that is more important
> than people.
>
> If you really want to help children, take John Price's advice and
> destroy your modem. You've done too much harm already.
>
> Totally disrespectfully,
>
> Leslie
> (mother of Loren and Justin, who both have Tourette Syndrome and who
> both can and do out-think, out-feel, out-accomplish, and out-class you
> every damn day of the week)
--
Leslie E. Packer, PhD
[newsgroups trimmed]
>good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
>DEAR LESLIE,
> With such a young son attempting suicide, I would suspect that all in
>the family (including you) are quite possibly disturbed.
Mr. Jesness:
It is clear that you know nothing about Tourette Syndrome and its
associated disorders.
As someone who purports to teach counseling or psychology students and
who claims that paraprofessionals, properly selected and trained,
could be of value for "a wide range of problems," your appalling
ignorance about a "wide range" of pediatric-onset neurobiological
disorders is staggering and dangerous.
I suggest that you run, not walk, to educate yourself on these
disorders. To the extent that you are passing along your ignorance
and prejudice about these disorders to those whom you claim you
teach, your students are being grossly misinformed.
Here are some useful references for an introduction to understanding
Tourette Syndrome and its associated disorders (I am not including any
volumes and resources for professionals, because you're clearly not
ready for that level):
Shimberg, E: Living with Tourette Syndrome. NY: Simon & Schuster,
1995.
Fowler, R: The Unwelcome Companion (revised edition). CA: Fireside
Publications, 1996.
The above books both provide helpful information to understand what
it's like for someone to live with TS or for their family and friends.
Alternatively, you might contact the NYS Dept. of Education (they have
web pages) and ask them if they'll mail you the article that they
published and sent to every school principal, school counselor,
special education administrator, and school psychologist in NYS. It
was sent out in January, 1995 (with cover memo from Mr. Thomas
Neveldine). You can contact NYSED's Office of Publications and
request:
Educating children with Tourette Syndrome: Understanding and
educating children with a neurobiological disorder. Part 1:
Psychoeducational Implications of Tourette Syndrome and its
associated disorders. (Author: L. E. Packer).
Or you can find some articles on TS on the 'net. One such article is
"Guide to Diagnosis of Tourette Syndrome" by Ruth Bruun, MD and
others. I think you can find it at
http://www.mentalhealth.com/book/p40-gtor.html although I haven't
checked that recently.
Another article on TS available on the 'net is a more recent one by
Roger Freeman, MD (both Dr. Bruun and Dr. Freeman are past or present
members of TSA's Medical Advisory Board). Dr. Freeman's article,
"Diagnosis and Management of Tourette Syndrome," can be found at
Medscape (but you may not be able to access directly until you
register for Medscape):
http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/MentalHealth/1997/v02.n07/mh3053.freeman/mh3053.freeman.html#Int
Then take a few courses or learn something about pediatric
psychopharmacology and learn about the side effects of some of the
medications commonly used to treat the tics of Tourette Syndrome --
side effects that can include depression. Learn something about
genetics.
Call the MN chapter of the Tourette Syndrome Association and find out
if they're running any lecture programs in your area, and then go
listen and learn. You can get the chapter's phone number by e-mailing
tour...@ix.netcom.com and asking them for it.
Begin to understand (if you have any brain cells that are actually
intact) that there are many neurobiologically based problems that may
be associated with a genetically-transmitted disorder such as
Tourette. Learn what they are. Learn what their range of symptoms
is. Learn what the psychological consequences and factors are. These
are the kinds of disorders that counselors frequently encounter and
often don't recognize or misinterpret (and I mention counselors
specifically because you claim to be a counseling instructor -- all MH
professionals should learn about these disorders).
>You illustrate
>disturbed behavior by inappropriate posts and inappropriately presenting
>material out-of-context.
Your credentials and skills as any kind of diagnostician are
comparable to your credentials and skills as an advocate.
> I wonder what people really think of a woman
>WHOSE KID (AT AGE 7) ATTEMPTS SUICIDE and then she whines about it
>out-of-context to newsgroups who have not seen the posts ??
They probably realize that when necessary to support or educate
others, I'm willing to discuss matters that are personally painful.
You complain about my cross-posting my responses in this thread to
other newsgroups. I already explained why I did so with that one
post, and will not repeat it here. I am not cross-posting this reply
to your latest post.
"Whines" Mr. Jesness? Never. I have cried and at times I've been
angry (as both a mother and an advocate), but I'm not a 'whiner,' and
unlike you, don't try to claim "victim" status. I'm an activist.
My organization (and I) do not make idle threats like you do, Mr.
Jesness. We don't run around making posts with titles such as
"Charges of gross negligence have been filed" etc. We file formal
legal complaints. Time and time again. With the state, with the
feds, and with the courts.
In 1993, during my testimony to the U.S. Dept. of Education, I made a
statement, "We would rather educate than advocate, and we would rather
advocate than litigate, but we're prepared to do all three."
And that, indeed, has been my philosophy for the last six years, a
philosophy adopted by the Tourette Syndrome Association of Long Island
and a philosophy that I hope to share with the national Tourette
Syndrome Association (I serve on their newly forming national advocacy
committee).
I am fed up with your attacks on everyone who has a degree and who
does not agree with you. You have personally and professionally
abused Dan Rogers, Diane Unterspan, Peter Hood, Nancy Alvarado, Paul
Bernhardt, myself, John Price, Larry Lyons, Joe Arco, and I'm probably
leaving out a bunch of folks.
Some of the very people in spp whom you have attacked have volunteered
their time and skills to help me and our organization in whatever ways
they can. I will not name them here since I don't want to embarass
them by identifying them without their prior permission, but one of
the people whom you have attacked kindly reviewed and provided
feedback on our draft written testimony for the U.S. Dept. of
Education last week and has frequently helped me when I've had
computer problems so that I can get my work done. Another whom you
have attacked volunteered his time and technical knowledge when he saw
my public comment that we are trying to set up web pages. Other
members of spp have offered various kinds of help at different points.
There are many caring people in spp, Mr. Jesness, including a few spp
members who e-mailed Loren privately to give her a 'thumbs up' on her
post to you.
If you have not been met with kindness or respect, perhaps it is
because of the way you have conducted yourself and because you have
turned professional discourse into a sewer.
>FOR SEVERAL
>REASONS I CONDIDER YOU SICK, Leslie. You are.
Mr. Jesness, again you cross the line and land up in oncoming traffic.
> JUST to show people how extremely out-of-context Leslie presents things
>(to defend myself from this psychopathological person's attacks on my
>character): The post where I called you a "child killer" was *in
>reference to* you supporting false statements about the facts in the
>field. Statements, that if believed, would hamper doing needed research
>that would likely save lives. ( In any case, I cancelled this post
>immediately and posted one with better wording. Almost no on saw the post
>with bad wording, since I cancelled it immediately -- unfortunately one of
>your pals did !!)
Your post was present long enough, apparently, for a number of people
to see it. I had no idea until now that you even cancelled it. I
have certainly not seen any apology from you for that.
> I never called anyone else a "child killer."
Oh, that makes it excusable then? Think again.
>YOU
>misrepresent things again to wrongly do (or attempt) character
>assassination. Don't you wonder how it looks to the whole world to tell
>them about personal, off-topic problems that they know nothing about? And
>to behave in front of them in such unseemly ways ??!! KOOK.
>
One could argue that you are _supposed_ to know about TS, Mr. Jesness,
since you claim to be a 'developmental psychologist' and a counseling
and psychology instructor. And a discussion of kids attempting
suicide or Tourette Syndrome are certainly _not_ "off-topic" in a
thread on the effectiveness of psychotherapy.
>P.S. Leslie: Don't worry. You and Peter have won. Whether moderation
>passes or not, this will soon be YOUR turf. I shall not hang around with
>a unseemly thug like you and a villianous thug like Peter Hood. You
>simply are to sick and uncivil for me to deal with any further.
We already have a whole archive of such posts of yours, Mr. Jesness.
Maybe Peter will update them for a.u.k.
>
>I DO URGE YOU AGAIN TO STOP THE OFF-TOPIC PERSOANL ATTACKS.
Of course you do. But they're not off-topic when you changed the
thread by attacking me personally and professionally. My posts have
been 'directly relevant,' as you would say, to the claims you have
made about the field, individuals here, and yourself.
You have made erroneous statements about Strupp and Hadley time and
time again -- your recent argument with Nancy Alvarado provides
evidence that despite the fact that it was shown to you last year that
you cannot make the claims you make about "as good as" due to totally
insufficient power in S & H's design, you repeat your erroneous
statements. It would appear, (since there is an archived and
public record where I and others explained to you that your
statements were not warranted and that one of the authors of the study
you cite even said that no such conclusions could be drawn) that you
may be intentionally trying to mislead people.
So it seems that although you accuse others of misrepresenting
research, it is you who has repeatedly misrepresented research by
ignoring corrections to your statements that were made by people who
are much more knowledgeable in research design and statistical
analysis than you are.
And no, I will not engage you in that debate again. It's all
archived.
>TRY TO
>REMEMBER: YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY AGAINST THIS BEHAVIOR. YOU AND YOUR
>PROPOSED "MODERATOR" FRIENDS WANT THINGS TO BE GOOD AND NOT LIKE THIS.
>NOW TAKE ANY MEDS YOU MAY HAVE AND GO TO BED.
Mr. Jesness, what I think of you personally is not printable. But I
do wear different hats -- at least three of them, to be a bit more
precise -- private individual, psychologist, and advocate for the
Tourette Syndrome Association, Inc.
Be prepared for real-world consequences, Mr. Jesness.
If you go back through the e-mail you received from Ms. Alpert, who is
of counsel to the Tourette Syndrome Association of Long Island, you
will find a reference by her to 'cooperating counsel' in Minnesota.
Our cooperating counsel is in Minneapolis, to be precise.
And I called earlier today to instruct her to initiate an
investigation of your professional background and employment. And
when I get the results of that investigation, then I will decide what
I as an individual may do, what I, as a member of the APA may do, and
what I, as the head of a disability organization, may do.
Never try to drive in the fast lane when you've only got a learner's
permit, Mr. Jesness, and when you were already issued warnings for
unsafe driving. You're heading for a crash.
<previous posts snipped>
Edna
In article <good_brad-030...@ts003d04.min-mn.concentric.net>,
Cognitee <URL:mailto:good...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mr. Jeness,
This time you have gone too far. This is the most disgusting, appalling,
disgraceful human behavior I ever had the misfortune of witness.
This post is going to come back to haunt you because *this time* you are
not going to get away with it lightly.
To this day, I have stayed away from the controversy provoked by and around
you. That was because I don't mind your ideas with regard psychology,
science, psychotherapy, counselling, paraprofessionals or whatever personal
criticisms you hold in relation to the field. I may not agree with most of your
opinions but I am perfectly able to accept that you have different view of
the problem and leave it to that.
With regard to your past behavior, as I said a long time ago, I found
you rude and boring; you are not the kind of person I wish to associate
myself with, so I have kept myself well out of your way and you have done the
same in relation to me.
No more Mr. Jeness. Your horrendous attack at the most moving and courageous
account of a mother's fight for her child's life and health puts you bellow the
standards of human decency. Your lack of respect and compassion for human
suffering discredit you as a member of the human race, never mind of a
critic of psychology, psychotherapy or whatever. As a woman and a mother
myself I cannot let you get away with it without speaking out of my revultion.
I am sure I am not alone in this.
...and Mr. Jeness, don't bother to reply. I am not about to have a shouting
match with you neither here in the public forum nor in private by e-mail.
That is not my style. I am more a doer than a talker and I make the
kind of enemy that you could have done without.
-----
Edna
--
General remote signature - name, company name, address, WWW address? Work
international number. Disclaimer?
Vunch
You can hang your shingle and practice therapy with an M.A.
But, you cannot get licensed by the state; it only licenses Ph.D's and
MSW. The MSW typically works with certain populations and the Ph.D. also
works with certain populations; these populations often differ but may be
the same and they may both ork together.
The strands have different histories and traditons. A Ph.D., remember,
had to get an M.A. somewhere along them line. So, a Ph.D. is usually
considered more dedicated in his/her field. Acquiring the M.A. is a
'getting your feet wet experience;' while the Ph.D. is getting completely
immersed. Also, as you know, the programs giving out the Ph.D.'s are
extremely competitive so that you have to have some magic in your
background to get accepted and to complete, not to mention $$$. Many
people get sick of paying the exorbitant tuition just to read a book for
15 weeks.
Once again, you can practice your therapeutic skills with an M.A.
and you'll be as successful as you want to be if you take it seriously.
There are many settings where a Ph.D is inappropriate
and many jobs where they'd love to take an M.A., or M.S., instead of the
Ph.D. they advertised for; so give 'em a shot.
Vunch
ann sheehan
Dear Leslie:
This letter to Brad alone makes me want to change my vote (altho I can't
figure out how to vote yet, I've asked and asked and no one tells me how
to do it). That ANYone, even Brad would stoop to such depravity goes
beyond all bounds of any newsgroup. I, for one, am sorry you have had to
endure such a tirade on such a delicate matter.
I do wonder however, once you post something publically, what is to stop
Brad or anyone else from sending you such a letter in private? Would it
have been better to respond to the original poster by her private e-mail?
I don't intend to imply that you should "hide" from the likes of what
Brad said, but the truth is, you're open to anyone who chooses to write
such garbage once you post a public e-mail. I have been stalked,
physcially, after posting to one group by someone who managed to get my
address, basically becasue he didn;t like somthing I had said. I have
turned to responding, usually, in private forums, rather than public.
If Brad is reading this, you have lost ANY sympathy I might have had for
you. This was going way too far adn if THIS is the type of thing that
some folks here have had to put up with, I can now understand why they
want a separate group. Something like this should be reported somehow.
Ann
Leslie E. Packer, PhD wrote:
>
> [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> L.P.]
>
> >good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
>
> >P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
> >for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
> >
Cognitee
Dear Ann,
I made NO STATEMENTS about Tourette's children. NONE. EVER. Leslie is
mischaracterizing things (in fact, she is lying). I was NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE
of who her clients were when I guessed that they might be retarded -- at
the time, based on what I had been told, this was a good guess (at the
time I knew ONLY that she worked with brain damaged people, and often
children). In fact, as I FINALLY was able to find out, Leslie's clients
*in her regular paid work* are "brain damaged people with 'motor
problems'" (act. typically adults); they ARE **NOT** Tourette's clients OR
children. That they are "brain damaged people with 'motor problems" and
"usually NOT retarded" and THIS is all I know *NOW*. In any case, I did
not know who Leslie's clients were *at the times* I made some guesses
about their problems NOR did I know about the Tourette's people she works
with in volunteer work. I certainly NEVER referred to Tourette's people
in the way Leslie indicates, EVER. Leslie Packer is a malicious liar.
She seems to be either a vengeful; psychopath or psychotic (coming to
believe lies or misrepresentations). Leslie Packer is a libelous
individual who has lost track of morality altogether. There is depraved.
[snip]
> Leslie E. Packer, PhD wrote:
> >
> > [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> > should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> > alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> > also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> > and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> > L.P.]
> >
[snip]
--
For a critique of the counseling/psychotherapy field and SOLUTIONS, see my web page: http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html
Cognitee
P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL IN ANY
WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I have a
cousin with Tourette's and am NOT totally ignorant here OR in ANY way
disrespectful. I resent the false innuendo below and previous FALSE
statements that I referred to people with Tourette's disrespectfully and
incorrectly. I am sick of vicious lies just to assassinate my character
and all this being done inappropriately (and needlessly -- for any GOOD
purpose) in front of the whole world. It is done this way just to be
malicious !! It is of NO VALUE to anyone. It is the product of a sick
mind. I wish Leslie Packer could confine herself to appropriate posts and
appropriate forums for her "complaints", especially since she may be
delusional (she seems so to me).
[snip]
>
> Leslie E. Packer, PhD wrote:
> >
> > [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> > should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> > alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> > also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> > and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> > L.P.]
[snip]
--
Cognitee
P.P.S. Ann,
The post of mine containing the objectionable characterization was
CANCELLED and replaced with one with more appropriate (and clear)
wording. My opponents OMIT this fact. In any case my follow-up post
makes it clear what I meant. My condemnation has to do with Leslie's
backing of myth on the basis of no good evidence, encouraging the neglect
of needed research in psychtherapy that would lead to better mental health
care. People who do this may well be contributing to deaths, in my view.
I addressed ONLY Leslie in this regard, NOT the other lady. Leslie has
had an inappropriate, long-standing "ax to grind" here AND all familiar
with our dialog know the full context (and certainly Leslie does, though
she conveniently "pretends" otherwise).
For gosh sakes, look at the thread title. Not only were my remarks
understandable in the larger context, but MAINLY the larger context wa
this VERY thread. Now Leslie "shares" one post (out-of-context) with
other newsgroups and make innuendo, etc. Leslie is trying maliciously to
assassinate my character. This is called libel.
In article <33EFB2...@gis.net>, ann sheehan <ashe...@gis.net> wrote:
> Dear Leslie:
>
> This letter to Brad alone makes me want to change my vote (altho I can't
> figure out how to vote yet, I've asked and asked and no one tells me how
> to do it). That ANYone, even Brad would stoop to such depravity goes
> beyond all bounds of any newsgroup. I, for one, am sorry you have had to
> endure such a tirade on such a delicate matter.
>
> I do wonder however, once you post something publically, what is to stop
> Brad or anyone else from sending you such a letter in private? Would it
> have been better to respond to the original poster by her private e-mail?
>
> I don't intend to imply that you should "hide" from the likes of what
> Brad said, but the truth is, you're open to anyone who chooses to write
> such garbage once you post a public e-mail. I have been stalked,
> physcially, after posting to one group by someone who managed to get my
> address, basically becasue he didn;t like somthing I had said. I have
> turned to responding, usually, in private forums, rather than public.
>
> If Brad is reading this, you have lost ANY sympathy I might have had for
> you. This was going way too far adn if THIS is the type of thing that
> some folks here have had to put up with, I can now understand why they
> want a separate group. Something like this should be reported somehow.
>
> Ann
>
> Leslie E. Packer, PhD wrote:
> >
> > [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> > should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> > alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> > also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> > and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> > L.P.]
> >
> > >good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
> >
> > >P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
> > >for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
> > >
> > <taking a very deep breath here lest I use language that I generally
> > reserve for private communications>
> >
> > Mr. Jesness:
> >
> > This thread began when a mother, Adrianne, talked about having a
> > teenage son who had been suicidal and how a pastoral counselor had
> > made matters worse. She noted at the beginning of her post that she
> > was upset with remarks made (by you, although she didn't name you)
> > about professionals killing children, and she felt she needed to speak
> > up for professional psychotherapists as a grateful parent. So she
> > expressed her appreciation to the professionals who had saved her
> > child and helped him turn his life around.
> > >> >
--
Mark D. Morin
Cognitee wrote:
> P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
> IN ANY
> WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
> have a
> cousin with Tourette's
So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
where you get you information from.
MM
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The God who deals in terror is a bully, and to bend the knee
before him is to be a coward, not a devotee.
--- A. DeMello S.J.
Leslie E. Packer, PhD
[a.s.t. trimmed]
>ann sheehan <ashe...@gis.net> wrote:
>Dear Leslie:
>
>This letter to Brad alone makes me want to change my vote (altho I can't
>figure out how to vote yet, I've asked and asked and no one tells me how
>to do it).
Ann, if you want to vote (whether it's for or against, although I
obviously hope it's 'for'), you need to find the CFV. It was posted
here in news.groups and in sci.psychology.announce, and in spp, or if
you really can't find it, use D/N to read sci.psychology.announce,
which tends to have fewer posts to sift through.
If you read the CFV, you will see that at the bottom, it provides very
clear directions for how to vote, which is by e-mail. You need to
follow the directions, though. I think you still have a few hours
left.
I can't just give you the voting directions, because my understanding
is that one isn't supposed to do anything other than point people to
the CFV where they can find the directions.
I'll respond to the rest of your post by e-mail. But the bottom line
is that yes, once you post something publicly, anything can happen,
including e-mail responses, etc., and it's a risk. In my e-mail, I'll
explain why I took that risk.
>> >P.S. The person I was responding to was not someone coming to the group
>> >for help, but the deceptive thug and moral idiot, Leslie Packer.
>> >
>> <taking a very deep breath here lest I use language that I generally
>> reserve for private communications>
>>
>> Mr. Jesness:
>>
>> This thread began when a mother, Adrianne, talked about having a
>> teenage son who had been suicidal and how a pastoral counselor had
>> made matters worse. She noted at the beginning of her post that she
>> was upset with remarks made (by you, although she didn't name you)
>> about professionals killing children, and she felt she needed to speak
>> up for professional psychotherapists as a grateful parent. So she
>> expressed her appreciation to the professionals who had saved her
>> child and helped him turn his life around.
>> >> >
Leslie
------
"Thank you.
sincerely, b jesness, psychology instructor, counseling
instructor, noted and plublished behavioral scientist"
Fiona Webster
Brad wrote:
>P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL IN
>ANY WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter.
Out of curiosity, I went to DejaNews and read the exchange between
Brad and Leslie concerning Tourette's syndrome patients. I couldn't
make much sense out of it, other than noticing that Brad called
Leslie "SICK, SICK, SICK" and a "Nazi," but I did notice an amazing
statistic: Brad posted 2800 postings to this newsgroup in the first
seven months of 1997. 2800 postings! My word -- that's 400 postings
a month, over 10 postings a day. How does he ever have time to
earn a living and have a life, is what I wonder. Some people are
just superheroes, I guess.
--Fiona Webster
John M Price
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Mark D. Morin <mmo...@idt.net> wrote:
: Cognitee wrote:
: > P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
: > IN ANY
: > WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
: > have a
: > cousin with Tourette's
: So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
: where you get you information from.
No. The cousin's therapist is another CHILD KILLER, that's all.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Atheist# 683
"If there is any principle in the Constitution that more imperatively
calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought-
not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought
that we hate."
-Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
DLMCMA
>Cognitee wrote:
>
>> P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
>> IN ANY
>> WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
>> have a
>> cousin with Tourette's
>
>So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
>where you get you information from.
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The God who deals in terror is a bully, and to bend the knee
>before him is to be a coward, not a devotee.
> --- A. DeMello S.J.
Brad is technically correct, and when yoyr clever comeback is just as
sorry-ass a behavior as what people condemn in Brad.
Nice quote, nice to know you reflect on bullying.
Deb McMahon
Cognitee
Dear Fiona,
I will accept the characterization as a super-hero.
In article <5soffl$8r4...@fi.smart.net>, f...@DELETETHISoceanstar.com
(Fiona Webster) wrote:
> Brad wrote:
> >P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL IN
> >ANY WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter.
>
> Out of curiosity, I went to DejaNews and read the exchange between
> Brad and Leslie concerning Tourette's syndrome patients. I couldn't
> make much sense out of it, other than noticing that Brad called
> Leslie "SICK, SICK, SICK" and a "Nazi," but I did notice an amazing
> statistic: Brad posted 2800 postings to this newsgroup in the first
> seven months of 1997. 2800 postings! My word -- that's 400 postings
> a month, over 10 postings a day. How does he ever have time to
> earn a living and have a life, is what I wonder. Some people are
> just superheroes, I guess.
>
> --Fiona Webster
--
Cognitee
John Price,
See my response to Mark Morin (DITTO for you). Please do not repeat
the remarks of the libelous sick psychopathic liar, Leslie Packer (and
following suit, Mark Morin). I hope no one will believe this woman
again. She not only promulgates the complete baseless lies of others but
creates her own. Her mental disabilities make her unreliable. Also, in
my view, she has lost any moral sense. AND, SHE SEEMS TO HAVE COME TO
BELIEVE HER OWN LIES OR GROSS MISREPRESENTATIONS (i.e. she seems
delusional -- a delusional psychopath)
Try to find one post where I am clearly addressing Tourette's people in
the way you or Mark OR Leslie claim. (The post of mine you refer to was
CANCELLED and replaced with one making clear what I meant. In any case I
WAS NOT REFERRING TO A TOURETTE PERSON'S "THERAPIST" -- as if they even
need one of the lousy hacks !! This became even clearer in my replacement
post AS, in fact, *YOU* LIKELY WELL KNOW) You are doing character
assassination and sending inappropriate out-of-context posts to
alt.support.tourette. Do you really think it is appropriate for you to
seek help for your battles against me by misleading a whole new group.
Keep your crap where it started John: in sci.psychology,.psychotherapy.
P.S. CAUTION TO ALL READERS: It appears to me that Leslie also
frequently misrepresent her status and her job.
In article <5sormu$jr8$1...@news.calweb.com>, John M Price
<jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Mark D. Morin <mmo...@idt.net> wrote:
> : Cognitee wrote:
>
> : > P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
> : > IN ANY
> : > WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
> : > have a
> : > cousin with Tourette's
>
> : So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
> : where you get you information from.
>
> No. The cousin's therapist is another CHILD KILLER, that's all.
>
>
> --
> John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
> Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
> Atheist# 683
>
> "If there is any principle in the Constitution that more imperatively
> calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought-
> not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought
> that we hate."
> -Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
--
DLMCMA
Fiona writes:
>Out of curiosity, I went to DejaNews and read the exchange between
>Brad and Leslie concerning Tourette's syndrome patients. I couldn't
>make much sense out of it, other than noticing that Brad called
>Leslie "SICK, SICK, SICK" and a "Nazi," but I did notice an amazing
>statistic: Brad posted 2800 postings to this newsgroup in the first
>seven months of 1997. 2800 postings! My word -- that's 400 postings
>a month, over 10 postings a day. How does he ever have time to
>earn a living and have a life, is what I wonder. Some people are
>just superheroes, I guess.
>
>
you might check and see how much time other posters spent replying to this
stuff, because he's not the only internet superhero who churns out post
after post. Start with Leslie, she used to pride herself on her high
postings award on medsig where she was hitting 100 plus a week. She and
Brad like any other couple trapped in a cycle of bonded mutual abuse
except it happens in cyberspace and can be reviewed in dejanews.
Could try Price as well, he'd come pretty close too. Of course, they're
"working' and Brad's just being a "nut"
Deb McMahon
Farewell
Having once in article <50muq5$o...@antares.en.com>, Cognitee
<na57...@anon.penet.fi> written
>Dear Readers:
<snip>
>quelling "problems" here is a good one and is very considerate OF ALL.
>Thank you.
> sincerely, b jesness, psychology instructor, counseling
> instructor, noted and plublished behavioral scientist
In article <good_brad-120...@ts004d02.min-mn.concentric.net>,
Cognitee <good...@hotmail.com> with not inconsiderable irony also
wrote
<blather snip>
>P.S. CAUTION TO ALL READERS: It appears to me that Leslie also
>frequently misrepresent her status and her job.
Oh sure, we believe everything you say, Professor B. Jesness.
<snip>
>In article <5sormu$jr8$1...@news.calweb.com>, John M Price
><jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
>
>> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Mark D. Morin <mmo...@idt.net> wrote:
>> : Cognitee wrote:
>>
>> : > P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
>> : > IN ANY
>> : > WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
>> : > have a
>> : > cousin with Tourette's
>>
>> : So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
>> : where you get you information from.
>>
>> No. The cousin's therapist is another CHILD KILLER, that's all.
Ah. Do we have good interrater reliability here.
>> --
>> John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>> Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
>> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
>> Atheist# 683
>>
>> "If there is any principle in the Constitution that more imperatively
>> calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought-
>> not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought
>> that we hate."
>> -Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
--
Peter
Gonna paint my home like a desert island,
With clear skies and rising swell,
Leave the creeps on the jaded horizon
In Wall Streets of Hell
I'll say goodbye to the blindfold
And pursue the ideal
The planet becoming the hostess
Instead of the meal
<Roy Harper>
James Kroger
<three months later>
You're STILL arguing? Man, you must have an empty life.
Why do you continue to not use your real name?
In article <good_brad-110...@dial012.future.net>,
good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
> Dear Ann,
> I made NO STATEMENTS about Tourette's children. NONE. EVER. Leslie is
> mischaracterizing things (in fact, she is lying). I was NOT KNOWLEDGEABLE
> of who her clients were when I guessed that they might be retarded -- at
> the time, based on what I had been told, this was a good guess (at the
> time I knew ONLY that she worked with brain damaged people, and often
> children). In fact, as I FINALLY was able to find out, Leslie's clients
> *in her regular paid work* are "brain damaged people with 'motor
> problems'" (act. typically adults); they ARE **NOT** Tourette's clients OR
> children. That they are "brain damaged people with 'motor problems" and
> "usually NOT retarded" and THIS is all I know *NOW*. In any case, I did
> not know who Leslie's clients were *at the times* I made some guesses
> about their problems NOR did I know about the Tourette's people she works
> with in volunteer work. I certainly NEVER referred to Tourette's people
> in the way Leslie indicates, EVER. Leslie Packer is a malicious liar.
> She seems to be either a vengeful; psychopath or psychotic (coming to
> believe lies or misrepresentations). Leslie Packer is a libelous
> individual who has lost track of morality altogether. There is depraved.
>
> [snip]
> > Leslie E. Packer, PhD wrote:
> > >
> > > [I am adding news.groups to this, because I think some of those folks
> > > should see this, for better or worse. I am also adding
> > > alt.support.tourette, because some of the good folks over there were
> > > also aware of some of Brad "Cognitee" Jesness's statements about them
> > > and their children, and I think they're entitled to see this. --
> > > L.P.]
> > >
> [snip]
>
> --
> For a critique of the counseling/psychotherapy field and SOLUTIONS, see
my web page: http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The author is singly responsible for the contents of
this message; they reflect no opinion of the oranizations
sponsoring this net account.
Mark D. Morin
Cognitee wrote:
> Dear Mark Morin,
> I absolutely NEVER referred to any Tourette's client as spastic
> or
> retarded. NEVER. EVER.
Yes you did. REPEATEDLY.
> These are complete fabrications by a sick liar. These terms came up
> when querying Leslie about the TYPICAL clients in her *regular, paid
> work*.
How is it that the rest of us knew the type of clients she saw in her
regular paid work and you did not. Are you blind or just stupid.
now that was a silly question.
You had every reason to believe that your descriptors of her clients
(including "barking like dogs") would be applied to tourettes clients.
Are YOU retarded?
an even sillier question.
> THESE clients are NOT Tourette's patients.
Leslie has been very disclosing in discussion the population she works
with. It is now time to describe the population you work with. Have
you EVER seen a client and recieved payment?
If you have, I feel very very sorry for the client.
DLMCMA
Peter writes:
>>If you posted just a quarter of the substance those two have, then you'd
have my admiration. But you didn't...
>Deb McMahon
Plonk. I think. Yes.
--
Peter<<
Why would I want your admiration? I like plonk. Keep your vintage claret,
our Leslie's dreamy Englishman. You make a lovely couple. No secret I
think Price isn't worth cellaring either.
Deb
Farewell
In article <19970812161...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, DLMCMA
<dlm...@aol.com> writes
If you posted just a quarter of the substance those two have, then you'd
have my admiration. But you didn't...
>Deb McMahon
Plonk. I think. Yes.
--
Peter
...nothing to fear
the unknown soldier's grave's already here
is it too late
to create
a world made with care
is it there
or fleeting
here today and gone
tomorrow's child
looking so wild and free
are we a choice with no voice
can it be?...
<Roy Harper>
Cognitee
Dear Mark Morin,
I absolutely NEVER referred to any Tourette's client as spastic or
LESLIE'S CLIENTS IN HER PAID WORK ARE NOT TOURETTE'S PATIENTS (though she
may well have lead people to believe otherwise -- she often seems to
misrepresent herself). Through my querying I finally ascertained that
Leslie's clients in her regular paid work are "brain damaged people (usu.
adults) with 'motor problems'" (the 'motor problems were unspecified;
Leslie did say that her clients are not typically children or retarded).
Also, you will find absolutely no mention of Tourette's clients (or any
characterization this group) in ANY of my remarks. You will see NO
CHARACTERIZATION OF THIS GROUP associated with any posts where Leslie is
talking about such clients. (Again, Lelsie's Tourette's "clients" are
dealt with MAINLY and POSSIBLY **SOLELY** in her "volunteer work"
(whatevewr the heck this may mean -- but it is unpaid).)
I quote ALL posts I response to and have purged NONE from the Deja
record. You will find NO evidence of me characterizing Tourette's people
as a group. Please check the evidence before making further false
accussations. Do not believe and repeat Leslie's lies. Leslie Packer is
a psychopathic out-of-control liar. She may also be psychotic.
In article <5sormu$jr8$1...@news.calweb.com>, John M Price
<jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Mark D. Morin <mmo...@idt.net> wrote:
> : Cognitee wrote:
>
> : > P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
> : > IN ANY
> : > WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
> : > have a
> : > cousin with Tourette's
>
> : So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
> : where you get you information from.
>
> No. The cousin's therapist is another CHILD KILLER, that's all.
>
>
> --
> John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
> Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
> Atheist# 683
>
> "If there is any principle in the Constitution that more imperatively
> calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought-
> not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought
> that we hate."
> -Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
--
Mark D. Morin
Cognitee wrote:
> P.S. Mark Morin,
<snip>
> By the way, as I now understand it,
> Leslie's clients in her paid work are: "brain damaged people (usu.
> adults) with 'motor problems' (unspecified)"
<snip>
that's a hell of a lot more than you have told us about your paid
work--particularly of the kind involving "counselling."
Farewell
0<good...@hotmail.com> barks
> Hey, now I find out your some of your "patients" may bark like dogs
>!!! Too bad your undesirable behaviors are not that "tame" or appropriate
>!!!
Hmmmm.
Let me see; denigration of certain categories of client/patient <morons,
retards, ..."bark like dogs"... etc.> is OK. Advocacy clients aren't
really clients, and abusing someone for their advocacy work/the clients
they advocate for is OK.
Spoken like a real advocate. Well. Unproven. Just like your
'professional status'.
There are places that reflect other interests of mine. I hope that you
are not let in. Unlikely.
Goodbye.
---
Peter
SBNQ. :-[
In article <good_brad-120...@ts004d02.min-mn.concentric.net>,
Cognitee <good...@hotmail.com> writes
>> --
>> John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>> Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
>> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
>> Atheist# 683
>>
Cognitee
Dear Mark Morin,
I always quote the post I am responding to. Please go to Deja and cite
ONE post where I referred to Tourette's people this way. ONLY when I was
not aware of Leslie's clients and was basically guessing from what she
said did I surmize that her clients might be retarded. AND, by the way,
Leslie in her *regular and PAID work* does ****NOT**** work with
Tourette's people. (*If* I was referring to any group -- *which, in fact,
I was NOT* -- one would have to infer I was referring to Leslie's clients
in her REGULAR PAID WORK. My guesses came up ONLY in reference to that.)
ALSO: The characterizations you mention ***NEVER*** came up in
reference to her volunteer work, which is with Tourette's people. THESE
ARE THE FACTS. You shall henceforth cite evidence for your views or shut
up.
Mark, you are an ignoramous or a liar. Keep burdening the other group
Mark, to see if you can get others to do your dirty work. You are
pathetic.
In article <33F0E2D2...@idt.net>, mmo...@idt.net wrote:
> Cognitee wrote:
>
> > Dear Mark Morin,
> > I absolutely NEVER referred to any Tourette's client as spastic
> > or
> > retarded. NEVER. EVER.
>
> Yes you did. REPEATEDLY.
>
> > These are complete fabrications by a sick liar. These terms came up
> > when querying Leslie about the TYPICAL clients in her *regular, paid
> > work*.
>
> How is it that the rest of us knew the type of clients she saw in her
> regular paid work and you did not. Are you blind or just stupid.
>
> now that was a silly question.
>
> You had every reason to believe that your descriptors of her clients
> (including "barking like dogs") would be applied to tourettes clients.
>
> Are YOU retarded?
>
> an even sillier question.
>
> > THESE clients are NOT Tourette's patients.
>
> Leslie has been very disclosing in discussion the population she works
> with. It is now time to describe the population you work with. Have
> you EVER seen a client and recieved payment?
>
> If you have, I feel very very sorry for the client.
>
> MM
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The God who deals in terror is a bully, and to bend the knee
> before him is to be a coward, not a devotee.
> --- A. DeMello S.J.
--
Cognitee
P.S. Mark Morin,
If you knew the nature of Leslie's client's in her regular paid work
before I did, it is probably because you read more of the drivel from this
out-dated EXPERIMENTAL psychologist. By the way, as I now understand it,
Leslie's clients in her paid work are: "brain damaged people (usu.
adults) with 'motor problems' (unspecified)" If you know any more than
this I would be happy to hear it; I am curious. Leslie seems too
embarrassed about her paid work to describe it. In my experience, when
asked about her paid work Leslie always responds with a description of her
UNPAID, VOLUNTEER work with Tourette's people (esp. children).
ann sheehan
James Kroger wrote:
>
> <three months later>
>
> You're STILL arguing? Man, you must have an empty life.
> Why do you continue to not use your real name?
>
Ann
Leslie E. Packer, PhD
Mark and others:
Forgive me for using this message to jump in, but please note that
although I only cross-posted my one post to alt.support.tourette and
gave the reason, because Brad has continued posting without deleting
the newsgroup, and folks have responded to him, etc., this thread is
still being cross-posted there.
You might want to delete a.s.t. from the newsgroups line as there is
no way they can follow all of this current fighting.
Thanks.
Leslie
>"Mark D. Morin" <mmo...@idt.net> wrote:
>Cognitee wrote:
>
>> P.S. IN FACT, I have never characterized Tourette's clients AT ALL
>> IN ANY
>> WAY. I have simply not addressed this matter. I will say that I
>> have a
>> cousin with Tourette's
>
>So, is s/he retarded or spastic? Must be one or the other if this is
>where you get you information from.
>
>MM
ann sheehan
Cognitee wrote:
>
> Dear Ann,
> I made NO STATEMENTS about Tourette's children. NONE. EVER. Leslie is
I don;t remember if it was about Tourette's children speciifcally, but,
Brad, I did see the post where you referred to special needs chidlren in
a very derogatory manner. I just read another rpost of yours to Leslie,
which, again, is uncalled for. You really owe her an apology for this
one, Brad, you were way out of line and there really is no defending your
comments, regardless of your intent. Are you big enuf to do that, or
will you just continue to say " since they do this to me, I shall do this
to them? "
That post was really offensive.
Ann
Sephrenia & Hunter
"Cognitee" <good...@hotmail.com> wrote"
> ...(you are) sending inappropriate out-of-context
> posts to alt.support.tourette.
What, and you're not?? The newsgroup is alt.SUPPORT.tourette, Mr Jessness
et al.
Which means, fairly obviously, that it exists
to provide SUPPORT to people who have
Tourettes, and their families. Kindly take
your disgusting argument elsewhere.
Leanne Thomas
Melbourne, Australia