effectiveness of psychotherapy
Adrianne Stone
I am not a professional, but I have been upset about the remark that
professional psychotherapists are responsible for killing children, so I
have to speak up. I have been lurking here for a while but now I want to
share something that happened to our family.
Our son (now age 16) was upset over some things that happened. First he
lost his girlfriend, then he failed and class. His best friend was
getting involved with drugs. My son was taking them too, we found out.
He went to see a counselor at our church and that person told him to put
his problems in God's hands and tried to get him more involved in church
youth activities. Maybe he didn't mean to do this, but my son got the
idea that he had insufficient faith and felt uncomfortable around the
other kids in the church group. He got steadily more depressed and
finally attempted suicide. Then he was hospitalized and received
treatment from a professional on staff there.
This psychotherapist was great! He became very close to my son, gave him
real hope and helped him find ways of coping with his problems when they
would pile up on him. In family therapy he also helped us learn how to
be there for him. Things are not perfect now, but they are much better.
I just want to say that the contrast between the professional help and
the "parapro" was like night and day. I only wish we had gotten the
proper help a lot sooner. It would have saved us a lot of grief. I am
very scared when I think about what might have happened if my son's
attempt on his life had been successful.
Thanks for listening.
Adrianne (grateful to professional psychotherapists)
GTV3419
> When Brad tries to present
>himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
>talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
>It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
>-- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
Include me in this train of thought! Our family has gone through trained
paraprofessionals and wasted many years of my children's lives!
Gail
W.E.'Bill' Goodrich PhD
In article <33DF14...@binus.com>,
Adrianne Stone <st...@binus.com> writes:
>I am not a professional, but I have been upset about the remark that
>professional psychotherapists are responsible for killing children, so I
>have to speak up. I have been lurking here for a while but now I want to
>share something that happened to our family.
[...]
>I just want to say that the contrast between the professional help and
>the "parapro" was like night and day.
It is important here to realize that you are not comparing a
"professional" with a "paraprofessional" in your description. Instead,
you are comparing a Professional THEOLOGICAL counselor with a well-
trained (professional) Psychotherapist. While the two often address
the same problems, they have different functions and priorities.
The "church counselors" are an entirely different matter than the
"well-trained 'paraprofessionals'" - such as hypnotherapists, certain
NLP practitioners, and others - who have repeatedly demonstrated
therapeutic effectiveness which rivals or surpasses that of certain
groups of "Professional" psychologists, psychiatrists, and (especially)
Clinical Social Workers. In fact, I know of a number of PhD-level
Professional Psychotherapists who have effectively abandoned their
more mainstream approaches in favor of those more effective
"paraprofessional" approaches (in essence, becoming 'paraprofessionals'
themselves).
By contrast, the "church counselors" are EXPLICITLY there to help
you become more congruent with the values and beliefs of the Church,
and to make effective use of those "resources" in whatever situations
you bring to them. They are NOT "mental health" practitioners in
any real sense - professional OR paraprofessional.
>I only wish we had gotten the proper help a lot sooner. It would have
>saved us a lot of grief.
I am sure it would have. I have spent far too much of the last three
decades treating (among others) victims of such 'botched' religious
counseling.
Unfortunately, I have also seen more than my share of victims of
equally botched attempts at therapy at the hands of "PROFESSIONAL"
psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.
>I am very scared when I think about what might have happened if my
>son's attempt on his life had been successful.
Understandable.
>Thanks for listening.
>Adrianne (grateful to professional psychotherapists)
W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
*-----------------------*------------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * bgoo...@nyx.net bgoo...@filebank.com *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*------------------------------------------------*
Cognitee
Dear Leslie,
There are good professional clinicians and bad ones. It is possible to
have good, well-selected, well-trained other mental health professionals
("parapros") and there are bad ones. **Fact** is, this area has certainly
not been sorted out enough for us to typically know when we really need
people who are "very highly trained" (whatever this might really mean) and
when we don't. We have not even begun to investigate the utility of
well-selected and well-trained "paras" and compared them to care provided
by the supposed "advance" professionals. Carl Rogers (one of the best
clinical researchers and professionals ever) supported the idea of
"paras".
THE FACTS (despite what YOU may *like*, Leslie): There are only a few
controlled studies comparing other reasonable helpers and professionals --
and even these were NOT well-trained "paras". This data is decades old
but it supported MORE use of "paras." Any categorical pronouncement that
we need people with high graduate degrees to provide all good services is
simply NOT DATA-BASED and is a blind and recklessly *irresponsible*
assertion. It is not scientifically justified and is NOT acceptable. In
the long run the pronouncement you seem to make ( to "use only people who
have high degress because only they know what they are doing") will harm
the advancement of science and **harm clients** (and KILL CHILDREN). Good
"paras" for many cases could well be more accessible and more affordable
and equally effective -- possibly more effective. They could well serve a
preventive role as well, allowing for earlier treatment. ***You cannot
cite any evidence that well indicates otherwise.*** The BEST indirect
indicators we have (and he BEST evidence we have) supports a much larger
role for "paras" (WHO **ARE** WELL-SELECTED AND WELL TRAINED).
YOU JUST WORSHIP DEGREES, LESLIE, SO YOU CAN WORSHIP YOURSELF. Your
blanket statements are in fact extrordinarily ignorant, unscientific, and
irresponsible.
CHILD KILLER !!!
In article <33fd932a...@news.pipeline.com>, lpa...@pipeline.com wrote:
> >Adrianne Stone <st...@binus.com> wrote:
>
> >I am not a professional, but I have been upset about the remark that
> >professional psychotherapists are responsible for killing children, so I
> >have to speak up.
>
> Speaking up here in support of professional psychotherapy is hazardous
> at times, so I compliment you on taking the risk.
>
> > I have been lurking here for a while but now I want to
> >share something that happened to our family.
> >
> >Our son (now age 16) was upset over some things that happened. First he
> >lost his girlfriend, then he failed and class. His best friend was
> >getting involved with drugs. My son was taking them too, we found out.
> >He went to see a counselor at our church and that person told him to put
> >his problems in God's hands and tried to get him more involved in church
> >youth activities. Maybe he didn't mean to do this, but my son got the
> >idea that he had insufficient faith and felt uncomfortable around the
> >other kids in the church group. He got steadily more depressed and
> >finally attempted suicide. Then he was hospitalized and received
> >treatment from a professional on staff there.
> >
> >This psychotherapist was great! He became very close to my son, gave him
> >real hope and helped him find ways of coping with his problems when they
> >would pile up on him. In family therapy he also helped us learn how to
> >be there for him. Things are not perfect now, but they are much better.
> >
> >I just want to say that the contrast between the professional help and
> >the "parapro" was like night and day. I only wish we had gotten the
> >proper help a lot sooner. It would have saved us a lot of grief. I am
> >very scared when I think about what might have happened if my son's
> >attempt on his life had been successful.
> >
> >Thanks for listening.
> >
> >Adrianne (grateful to professional psychotherapists)
>
> You've been through a lot with your son, Adrianne. I'm glad he's
> doing better now. And I know exactly what you mean.
>
> My son first attempted suicide at age 7 1/2 because he was going
> downhill in a school where his problems weren't understood and no one
> knew how to deal with him. All the well-meaning people in the world
> -- even those who are 'certified' to do what they do -- are no
> substitute for professionals who _really_ know what to do and how to
> do it.
>
> It took us a few years (unfortunately -- and we had to go to federal
> court to do it) to get our son into a better placement where he was
> with people who knew how to help him. During those few years, he
> suffered terribly (as did we). He totally shut down on school and the
> world and went from being a brilliant happy child to a kid who felt
> that he couldn't do anything right because he was such a failure in
> school. I can't even recall now how many times we had to have him on
> suicide watch. There is no getting those years back, but we are
> grateful that he is alive and starting to do better after a long,
> long, time. And we, like you, are grateful to the mental health
> professionals (psychiatrists and psychologists) who had the knowledge
> and skills to help him and who helped some very wonderful educators
> learn how to help him.
>
> As a direct result of what we went through with him and because of two
> teenagers who committed suicide because they didn't get the help they
> needed (and yes, religious views/church came into play in one of those
> cases), I started an advocacy project six years ago. And I go
> absolutely ballistic when I see kids become suicidal because they've
> been mishandled or had counseling or help from people who don't
> understand what the problems really are. When Brad tries to present
> himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
> talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
> It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
> -- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
>
> Thank you for posting.
>
> Leslie
--
For a critique of the major problems in the counseling/psychotherapy field AND for SOLUTIONS to these problems, see my web site:
http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html Major professors in the field have spoken highly of the paper you shall find at that site.
Cognitee
P.S. Dear Leslie,
Can you say "biased, select anecdote"? That is what you have provided.
Why don't you speak to an area where you have some knowledge, like
training brain-damaged people with "motor problems"?? You likely love
"therapists" AND THE STATUS QUO only because you have loved your own silly
"high" degree (in experimental psychology) OR have loved your own
"therapists" (it is surely credible that you have seen some extensively).
THE APA IS LIKELY A ORGANIZATION WHOSE UNSCIENTIFIC POLICIES AND PRACTICES
HAVE ALREADY KILLED CHILDREN.
Cognitee
Dear GTV,
What some HMOs and other outfits often CALL "paras" are NOT -- and they
should not be considered the sort of "paras" I propose to test and that I
suspect may be good. Many of those around today are neither well-selected
or reasonably well-trained -- mainly because investigations have been
thwarted by the APA and there are no reasonble traing programs for
"paras". (YES, the APA kills children through negligence.) The basis of
the idea for "paras" IS A GOOD ONE. VERY LIKELY, THE REAL SKILLS NEED FOR
MUCH MENTAL HEALTH HELP NEEDED WOULD NOT REQUIRE A GRADUATE DEGREE. No
one could rationally outline the skills needed that would require
"advanced graduate training" for many of the sorts of problems dealt with
by mental health professionals. The argument to "just use 'highly
trained' professionals" is just one on faith to maintain the "status" and
status quo of the sick "therapy" field. Much of the training is
irrelevant (or totally unproven) and SELECTION may be more important than
training -- or just as important. Many graduate-trained therapists were
so poorly selected and are so pathological that they should never
practice.
In article <19970730021...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
gtv...@aol.com (GTV3419) wrote:
> > When Brad tries to present
> >himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
> >talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
> >It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
> >-- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
>
> Include me in this train of thought! Our family has gone through trained
> paraprofessionals and wasted many years of my children's lives!
> Gail
--
Cognitee
and aggressive asserts them (supposedly authoritatively) is contributing
to the continuation of gross negligence in the field. This negligence, I
believe, is already hurting the children in our society.
> understand what the problems really are. When Brad tries to present
> himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
> talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
> It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
> -- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
>
> Thank you for posting.
>
> Leslie
--
W.E. 'Bill' Goodrich, PhD
In article <33fd932a...@news.pipeline.com>,
Leslie E. Packer, PhD (lpa...@pipeline.com) writes:
> >Adrianne Stone <st...@binus.com> wrote:
> >I am not a professional, but I have been upset about the remark that
> >professional psychotherapists are responsible for killing children, so I
> >have to speak up.
> Speaking up here in support of professional psychotherapy is hazardous
> at times, so I compliment you on taking the risk.
Unfortunately, it also revives an old argument, long since "beaten to
death" in these groups. Both sides can fill the group with anecdotal
Horror Stories of incompetence on the part of the others and Wonder
Stories about the achievements of the prefered "side". Neither "side"
is well defined - the "professional vs paraprofessional" division was
created as a propaganda move at the end of WWII, when the psychiatriats
(then "the Professionals") were trying to regain their prewar exclusive
franchise on psychotherapy, after the psychologists (then "the
Paraprofessionals") filled in the wartime "therapy gap". Since then,
every franchised group has attempted to use the same tactic, with
varying success.
While the most frequent dividing line is "licensed vs unlicensed",
the second-most-frequent is Ph.D. Level vs Lesser Degree level. So who
is the "professional" here - an M.S.-degreed LMFC or a Ph.D.-degreed
"unlicensed psychotherapist" (/hypnotherapist)...both with over a decade
in practice? Both? Neither?
The "professionals" most often accused of "killing children" and the
like are the psychiatrists who, as MDs in their own right, can (and do)
prescribe medications. Many people feel (with varying degrees of
justification) that they (or at least "far too many of them")
OVERprescribe psychoactive medications, with disastrous long-term
results. Others repeat such accusations for political and/or religious
reasons.
In actual comparisons, the issue gets even muddier. For instance (a
statistic I usually "trot out" in these discussions), in 1995 (the
latest year I have the statistics for) the Mental Health Grievance Board
(which handles disciplinary issues for both licensed AND unlicensed
psychotherapists - with the single exception of psychiatrists, who are
under the Medical board) issued more serious disciplinary actions
against the approximately 1000 licensed psychologists than against the
approximately 4000 "unlicensed psychotherapists". Not more "per capita"
actions, but more actions period (making the per capita rate about 4
times that of the "unlicensed" group). There is no clear preponderance
of evidence (despite numerous studies) that EITHER the "professionals"
or the "paraprofessionals" are (1) more/less effective than the other,
or (2) more/less dangerous than the other.
> > I have been lurking here for a while but now I want to
> >share something that happened to our family.
[anecdote snipped]
> You've been through a lot with your son, Adrianne. I'm glad he's
> doing better now.
So am I.
>And I know exactly what you mean.
While I have not had personal experience with one of my children
becoming suicidal, I DID help my son deal with a similar situation,
given the early social rejection he experienced due to a speech
problem and the associated problems with a Reading and Writing
cirriculum which was heavily based on the metaphor that "writing is
speaking on paper, and reading is listening to such speech".
Fortunately, the relevant school officials here were both more aware of
the nature and limitations of that cirriculum and more responsive to
"special needs" students, so I did not have the battles you did on that
front. Also fortunately, I was able to use therapeutic metaphores (in
the form of bedtime stories) to help him cope with the more personal
problems in a more life-affirming way. But you (Leslie) were already
aware of all this.
You are also aware (from earlier "go 'rounds" of this discussion) that
I have all too often been the one attempting to "pick up the pieces"
when one of the more "mainstream"/"professional" psychotherapists badly
"botched" a case (often due to dogmatic rigidity, of the sort displayed
by some of our mutually less-than-favorite posters here). I can match
every one of your "parapro botched, and then the pro saved" stories with
an even more compelling "Licensed pro botched, and I saved" anecdote.
But
neither set of stories really establish a pattern (other, perhaps, than
a
perceptual pattern on the part of the speakers).
[anecdote snipped]
> And I go
> absolutely ballistic when I see kids become suicidal because they've
> been mishandled or had counseling or help from people who don't
> understand what the problems really are.
So do I, ESPECIALLY when that counsellor is a "highly trained",
licensed Mental Health Professional whose lack of understanding
stems from ideological blindness.
But I also go ballistic when I see people trying to cynically barter
stories of personal tragedies and the like for support of a political
position. Not that either of YOU are doing so...but the timing is
unfortunate given the APA's recent launch of yet ANOTHER political
offensive against Unlicensed Psychotherapists (and - from what I've
been told - their targeting of Colorado due to our consistent
experiences with direct comparison of the two, which tend to REFUTE
the APA "talking points"). I have been in those "crosshairs" far too
many times over the last three decades - first as a hypnotherapist
towards the end of the "great propaganda push" against "lay
hypnotherapy" (meaning hypnotherapy in the hands of anyone but a
Licensed Psychologist or psychiatrist), and later as an "unlicensed
psychotherapist" throughout the current "license wars" in this country.
>When Brad tries to present
> himself as an advocate for mental health clients and then tries to
> talk about "appropriately trained paraprofessionals," I shudder.
In large part, that is probably because of your experiences with
MultiBrad himself. As well as your exposure to an almost unending
stream of APA propaganda ever since your Student days (ALMOST as long
ago as mine <-;).
> It's what they may not know -- including when to refer in some cases
> -- that may kill our kids. Not the APA.
Do we REALLY need to go over THAT ground again...our earlier discussions
of the damages inflicted by APA-recognized, Licensed Professionals of
the more Authoritarian schools of psychology (such as many of the
Analytic groups) on those kids? Of how many kids have been driven to
suicide or other acts of desperation by overzealous Licensed
Professionals in the Social Service arena (like the infamous GD)? And
all the rest of the Horror Stories which, contrary to such cheap shots
as the above, feature "fully trained" Licensed Professionals in the
role of Villain? I really thought we had moved beyond that. )-:
--
W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://www.nyx.net/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
* * *
* Without Aversive * bgoo...@nyx.net *
* Behavior Modification * Creative Technology Group *
* or Drugs * PO Box 286 *
* * Englewood, CO 80151-0286 *
*-----------------------*--------------------------------------------*
Gene Douglas
W.E. 'Bill' Goodrich, PhD wrote:
>
> The "professionals" most often accused of "killing children" and the
> like are the psychiatrists who, as MDs in their own right, can (and
do)
> prescribe medications. Many people feel (with varying degrees of
> justification) that they (or at least "far too many of them")
> OVERprescribe psychoactive medications, with disastrous long-term
> results. Others repeat such accusations for political and/or
religious
> reasons.
>
psychiatrist, are one. He may choose that field because there is more
money in a specialty, or because he is less likely to be sued than in
whatever he was doing before. Also, it is easier to point to an error
with a physical problem. A mental problem has the advantage of
abstractness and vagueness, and several people can point to it and call
it by different names. So if one wants to say the psychiatrist screwed
up, he has a lot of wiggle room for other viewpoints, and placing the
burden on his accusor. Patients typically don't know the difference
anyway, and if his treatment doesn't work, maybe they were just a hard
case that nobody can help.
Paul Bernhardt
In article <good_brad-300...@ts002d02.min-mn.concentric.net>,
good...@hotmail.com (Cognitee) wrote:
> P.S. Dear Leslie,
> Can you say "biased, select anecdote"? That is what you have provided.
> Why don't you speak to an area where you have some knowledge, like
> training brain-damaged people with "motor problems"?? You likely love
> "therapists" AND THE STATUS QUO only because you have loved your own silly
> "high" degree (in experimental psychology) OR have loved your own
> "therapists" (it is surely credible that you have seen some extensively).
>
> THE APA IS LIKELY A ORGANIZATION WHOSE UNSCIENTIFIC POLICIES AND PRACTICES
> HAVE ALREADY KILLED CHILDREN.
>
>
Brad, this is the first time I have read anything of yours and thought
that you were patently evil. Up 'till now you were simply sexist,
obnoxious, rude, illiterate, vain, and shallow. Leslie pours out her heart
on this public forum and you stomp on it as if it were an ant that crossed
your sainted path. We have two postings of stories, one from someone we
all know very well, that shows clear examples of the effectiveness of
highly trained therapists and the ineffectiveness of paraprofessionals.
They are anecdotes, but you can provide no more proof of your position.
You are vile for ignoring the fact that a person wrote this. This goes in
the file for the day of reckoning in your future.
+=============================================================+
Victories, alas, are only victories. The truly rabid
and zealous crusader looks forward to
the next enraging defeat!--Obwon
Paul C. Bernhardt, M.S. in Social Psychology (non-clinical)
+=============================================================+
Tim McNamara
> Keep in mind that in many states, any M.D. who wants to say he is a
> psychiatrist, are one.
What states are those? A medical specialty is analagous to a competency
in pscyhology- you'd better be able to back up your claim with the
appropriate acedemics and experience. Every Board of Medicine in the
United States has requirements which must be met in order to claim a
specialty.
>He may choose that field because there is more money in a specialty, or
because >he is less likely to be sued than in whatever he was doing
before.
Psychiatrists, as a specialty, usually make less money than almost any
other specialty in medicine. They also tend to be low on the "status
scale" among physicians- well below neurosurgeons, cardiologists and the
other "life saving" docs.
Tim
--
Reach out your hand if your cup is empty;
if your cup is full, may it be again.
-Robert Hunter
Jolab73
thanks for sharing your story in the newsgroup
I am a student therapist and will remember the responsibility of
professional care.
Gene Douglas
Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> In article <33E2AE...@prodigy.net>, Gene...@prodigy.net wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that in many states, any M.D. who wants to say he is a
> > psychiatrist, are one.
>
> What states are those? A medical specialty is analagous to a
competency
> in pscyhology- you'd better be able to back up your claim with the
> appropriate acedemics and experience. Every Board of Medicine in the
> United States has requirements which must be met in order to claim a
> specialty.
Oklahoma and Texas are two. I recently read on this ng that New York is
another. One can choose to be a board certified psychiatrist, but the
insurance companies pay the same if he isn't. If one tries for the
board and fails, no problem. Just put in the phone book, "board
qualified," which means that one has done everything but pass his
boards, and the consumer thinks that means a board has qualified him.
>
> >He may choose that field because there is more money in a specialty,
or
> because >he is less likely to be sued than in whatever he was doing
> before.
>
> Psychiatrists, as a specialty, usually make less money than almost
any
> other specialty in medicine. They also tend to be low on the "status
> scale" among physicians- well below neurosurgeons, cardiologists and
the
> other "life saving" docs.
>
He makes more than a g.p., and doesn't have to do anything to get
there. He has regular office hours, and doesn't need to do hospital
rounds unless he chooses to arrange his work that way. If he is an
ob-gyn, and getting sued every time he turns around, he can always be a
psychiatrist, whether he knows anything about it or not.
Gene
Cognitee
Dear Paul,
A check of the record would show that you have characterized me as
"evil" (using exactly that word) on more than one occassion before. You
also have spoken of "protecting people from my views" on more than one
occassion. A person with your attitude is unfit to be a moderation
officer, esp. under a "just-trust-us" charter, where you operate behind
closed doors (i.e. have no accountability).
In article <Paul.Bernhardt-...@news.cc.utah.edu>,
Paul.Be...@m.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt) wrote:
--
For a critique of the counseling/psychotherapy field and SOLUTIONS, see my web page: http://www.future.net/~bradj/it.html
Cognitee
P.S. Paul,
I damned well do have evidence for my position. I have shown that (a)
the best studies show that "other reasonable helpers" may well be just as
good as professionals and (b) no decent studies (*NONE* WHATSOEVER) show
otherwise. (In any case, whether we can show in research the utility of
"paras" or not, the research is ***NECESSARY*** to show where
professionals are most needed and to help show where treatments most need
to be developed. THE FIELD IS GROSSLY NEGLIGENT IN NOT DOING THIS
RESEARCH !! I firmly believe that the negligence of the field has likely
resulted in the death of children NEEDLESSLY already. Furhtermore the
research I propose is completely practical. AND, it is every bit as
ethical OR **more ethical** to do than much of the research that is done
today -- and I have demonstrated this !!!) I have posted this information
again and again and again, but you choose to LIE YOU LIE TO "DEFEND" THE
FIELD AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO TRUST YOU TO BE A "SCI." NEWSGROUP MODERATOR,
BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. NO WAY !!!!!! You are a scum bag (like Larry Lyons,
and Grohol). You biases hang out as bad as Nancy Alvarado's and they make
you unreasonable (like hers to her). (I have now mentioned 3 moderation
officers right here that are unreasonable and/or untrustworthy !!)