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Elon Musk confirms the Falcon 9 first stage can reach orbit as an SSTO.
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Robert Clark
Nov 25, 2015, 1:15:31 PM11/25/15
to
Elon Musk Verified account @elonmusk @TobiasVdb
The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
upper stage and a heavy satellite.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a
F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO.
Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would
remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block
that they can not be done.
For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I
was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using
altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage
rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude
compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been
saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9
first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation
that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you
use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html
Bob Clark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reber g=emc^2
Nov 25, 2015, 6:30:56 PM11/25/15
to
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
Nov 25, 2015, 7:01:15 PM11/25/15
to
In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgrego...@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
--
Jim Pennino
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
--
Jim Pennino
Robert Clark
Nov 25, 2015, 10:45:22 PM11/25/15
to
The Elon tweet suggests the payload would be less, not zero. More important
though the payload can be significantly increased by using known methods of
altitude compensation.
Bob Clark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wrote in message news:8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com...
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though the payload can be significantly increased by using known methods of
altitude compensation.
Bob Clark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Lester Thorpe
Nov 25, 2015, 11:48:59 PM11/25/15
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:45:20 -0500, Robert Clark wrote:
>
> known methods of altitude compensation.
>
You mention "altitude compensation."
>
> known methods of altitude compensation.
>
Is altitude compensation a major reason for using multi-stage vehicles
to achieve orbit? That is, multi-stages would allow different engines
for different altitudes.
Greg (Strider) Moore
Nov 25, 2015, 11:53:46 PM11/25/15
to
wrote in message news:8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com...
>
>
--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
Greg Goss
Nov 26, 2015, 1:12:06 AM11/26/15
to
surrounding the engine. This indeed is one of the reasons for
multi-staging. (another is to discard the weight of the tankage and
weight of extra engines that lifted that tankage when full)
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
Nov 26, 2015, 1:31:06 AM11/26/15
to
In sci.physics "Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <moo...@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote:
> wrote in message news:8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com...
>>
>>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgrego...@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>>
>>
>
> It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.
Not really.
> wrote in message news:8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com...
>>
>>In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgrego...@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>>> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>>> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>>That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>>to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>>
>>
>
> It's more like Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic; proof of concept.
What a given engine will achieve is calculable.
--
Jim Pennino
Jeff Findley
Nov 26, 2015, 11:44:41 AM11/26/15
to
In article <n34tnh$bo1$2...@dont-email.me>,
rgrego...@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com says...
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
ever flown as an SSTO. Until a Falcon 9 Full Thrust first stages flies
as an SSTO, this is all theoretical.
I doubt SpaceX would ever fly it as an SSTO. Reentering from orbital
velocity surely cause the stage to break up and be lost. It would be a
very expensive stunt.
Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
rgrego...@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com says...
>
> Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
> The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
>
> Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
>
> It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a
> F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO.
> Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would
> remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block
> that they can not be done.
>
> For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I
> was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using
> altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage
> rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude
> compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
>
> This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been
> saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9
> first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation
> that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you
> use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
>
> The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html
Lots of stages in the past supposedly had SSTO performance, but none has
> upper stage and a heavy satellite.
> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040
>
> Thank you very much, Mr. Musk.
>
> It would be a major advance if SpaceX would at least do a test launch of a
> F9 first stage only to confirm what the payload could be for it as an SSTO.
> Perhaps someone at DARPA could encourage them to do such a test? That would
> remove a major roadblock to SSTO's being investigated - the mental block
> that they can not be done.
>
> For an SSTO altitude compensation is important to maximize performance. I
> was surprised in fact that when I did the calculation I found that using
> altitude compensation an SSTO can be more cost effective than a two stage
> rocket. That is, the price per kilo is lower for the SSTO with altitude
> compensation than it is for a TSTO(!)
>
> This is a radical suggestion I know. But for a long time people have been
> saying that SSTO's couldn't even be done. Now Musk has confirmed that the F9
> first stage can do SSTO, without even trying to make it so. The calculation
> that they can in fact even be more cost effective than a multistage, IF you
> use altitude compensation, isn't even particularly hard:
>
> The Coming SSTO's: Falcon 9 v1.1 first stage as SSTO, Page 2.
> http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-coming-sstos-falcon-9-v11-first.html
ever flown as an SSTO. Until a Falcon 9 Full Thrust first stages flies
as an SSTO, this is all theoretical.
I doubt SpaceX would ever fly it as an SSTO. Reentering from orbital
velocity surely cause the stage to break up and be lost. It would be a
very expensive stunt.
Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
Jeff Findley
Nov 26, 2015, 11:46:13 AM11/26/15
to
In article <8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com>, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
says...
It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is
possible. Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.
In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first
stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.
says...
possible. Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.
In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first
stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
Nov 26, 2015, 3:16:09 PM11/26/15
to
In sci.physics Jeff Findley <jfin...@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com>, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> says...
>>
>> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgrego...@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>
> It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is
> possible. Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.
It is much more than a theoretical possibility, but it is not currently
> In article <8euhic-...@mail.specsol.com>, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> says...
>>
>> In sci.physics Robert Clark <rgrego...@gmspambloackail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Elon Musk Verified account ?@elonmusk @TobiasVdb
>> > The F9 booster can reach low orbit as a single stage if not carrying the
>> > upper stage and a heavy satellite.
>>
>> That sounds about as usefull as an airliner that can fly from New York
>> to Tokyo as long as there are no passengers or cargo.
>
> It would be useful only in that it would finally prove that SSTO is
> possible. Right now, it's only a theoretical possibility.
an economic possibility.
> In my opinion, it would be a very expensive stunt since Falcon 9's first
> stage is not designed for reentry from orbital velocities.
>
> Jeff
--
Jim Pennino
Robert Clark
Nov 26, 2015, 9:34:57 PM11/26/15
to
Yes. So far altitude compensation has not been used, though methods of
accomplishing it have been known for decades. Since they are most useful for
SSTO's, they have not been implemented.
Bob Clark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lester Thorpe" wrote in message
news:pan.2015.11...@thorpe.info...
---
accomplishing it have been known for decades. Since they are most useful for
SSTO's, they have not been implemented.
Bob Clark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A mission to Europa could result in the most important scientific advance in
human history, dwarfing even the Apollo missions, to discover life on
another world. By commercial space, launch and spacecraft costs can be
slashed by a factor of 10 or more. This would be a cost that could be
financed privately. And at costs this low it can even be done at a profit:
Low cost Europa lander missions.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2015/02/low-cost-europa-lander-missions.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
news:pan.2015.11...@thorpe.info...
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