INFORMATION...does it really exist?

[The Starmaker]

INFORMATION...does it really exist?

Is information like math, an invention of man?

Information has no independent existence...

it doesn't exist.



--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, and challenge
the unchallengeable.

[Earl Sneed]

The Starmaker wrote:

> INFORMATION...does it really exist? Is information like math, an
> invention of man? Information has no independent existence...
> it doesn't exist.

That's true, but it does exists. Noise is sort of not understood
information.

[Sergio]

Information is processed by Starfarter into noise.

[Sylvia Else]

On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
>

You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be
answered.

How are you defining "information"?

Sylvia.

[Mitch Raemsch]

What about data? Does it really exist...?
BH's don't. God creates.

Mitchell Raemsch

[The Starmaker]

Which ever way You define it.

[Sylvia Else]

On 24/08/2019 2:05 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>> On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
>>>
>>
>> You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be
>> answered.
>>
>> How are you defining "information"?
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> Which ever way You define it.
>
>
>

I define it as something that exists.

Sylvia.

[The Starmaker]

Sylvia Else wrote:
>
> On 24/08/2019 2:05 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>
> >> On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> >>>
> >>
> >> You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be
> >> answered.
> >>
> >> How are you defining "information"?
> >>
> >> Sylvia.
> >
> > Which ever way You define it.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I define it as something that exists.
>
> Sylvia.

"something"? Are you sayin 'information' is a thing? All things are made of atoms. Are you sayin 'information' is made of atoms???? Or somehing...Else?

[Sylvia Else]

On 24/08/2019 3:06 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>> On 24/08/2019 2:05 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be
>>>> answered.
>>>>
>>>> How are you defining "information"?
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>>
>>> Which ever way You define it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I define it as something that exists.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> "something"? Are you sayin 'information' is a thing? All things are made of atoms. Are you sayin 'information' is made of atoms???? Or somehing...Else?
>
>

Electrons are not made of atoms. Are they not things?

Beyond that I'm just emphasising the need for a definition of the terms
used before your question can be answered.

Sylvia.

[benj]

Sorry, Sylvia, but starfarter does not do logic, definitions or science.
He only does fantasy and other journo-science. Ignore him in this
discussion between adults.

[olli...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 23, 2019 at 3:46:15 PM UTC-5, The Starmaker wrote:
> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
>
> Is information like math, an invention of man?
>
> Information has no independent existence...
>
> it doesn't exist.
>
>

Perhaps starting with a scientific definition is in order.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/information/

Begin Quote--

In the twentieth century various proposals for formalization of concepts of information were made:

Qualitative Theories of Information
Semantic Information: Bar-Hillel and Carnap developed a theory of semantic Information (1953). Floridi (2002, 2003, 2011) defines semantic information as well-formed, meaningful and truthful data. Formal entropy based definitions of information (Fisher, Shannon, Quantum, Kolmogorov) work on a more general level and do not necessarily measure information in meaningful truthful datasets, although one might defend the view that in order to be measurable the data must be well-formed (for a discussion see section 6.6 on Logic and Semantic Information). Semantic information is close to our everyday naive notion of information as something that is conveyed by true statements about the world.

Information as a state of an agent: the formal logical treatment of notions like knowledge and belief was initiated by Hintikka (1962, 1973). Dretske (1981) and van Benthem & van Rooij (2003) studied these notions in the context of information theory, cf. van Rooij (2003) on questions and answers, or Parikh & Ramanujam (2003) on general messaging. Also Dunn seems to have this notion in mind when he defines information as “what is left of knowledge when one takes away believe, justification and truth” (Dunn 2001: 423; 2008). Vigo proposed a Structure-Sensitive Theory of Information based on the complexity of concept acquisition by agents (Vigo 2011, 2012).

Quantitative Theories of Information
Nyquist’s function: Nyquist (1924) was probably the first to express the amount of “intelligence” that could be transmitted given a certain line speed of a telegraph systems in terms of a log function:
W = k log m
where W is the speed of transmission, K is a constant, and m are the different voltage levels one can choose from.

Fisher information: the amount of information that an observable random variable X carries about an unknown parameter θ upon which the probability of X depends (Fisher 1925).

The Hartley function: (Hartley 1928, Rényi 1961, Vigo 2012). The amount of information we get when we select an element from a finite set S under uniform distribution is the logarithm of the cardinality of that set.
Shannon information: the entropy, H, of a discrete random variable X is a measure of the amount of uncertainty associated with the value of X (Shannon 1948; Shannon & Weaver 1949).
Kolmogorov complexity: the information in a binary string x is the length of the shortest program p that produces x on a reference universal Turing machine U (Turing 1937; Solomonoff 1960, 1964a,b, 1997; Kolmogorov 1965; Chaitin 1969, 1987).

Entropy measures in Physics: Although they are not in all cases strictly measures of information, the different notions of entropy defined in physics are closely related to corresponding concepts of information. We mention Boltzmann Entropy (Boltzmann, 1866) closely related to the Hartley Function (Hartley 1928), Gibbs Entropy (Gibbs 1906) formally equivalent to Shannon entropy and various generalizations like Tsallis Entropy (Tsallis 1988) and Rényi Entropy (Rényi 1961).

Quantum Information: The qubit is a generalization of the classical bit and is described by a quantum state in a two-state quantum-mechanical system, which is formally equivalent to a two-dimensional vector space over the complex numbers (Von Neumann 1932; Redei & Stöltzner 2001).

--End Quote.

[whodat]

Physician heal thyself.

We know *some* characteristics of an electron. In general, we know
*some* characteristics about things that interest us. Perhaps we should
be talking in terms like "working knowledge" recognizing how much we
really don't know and for the most part characteristics that we don't
actually care about. That gives rise to the next pertinent question, is
what we don't know information? Part of the quandary is we don't know
what we don't know. Is that perhaps the ultimate recursive? I don't
know.

[The Starmaker]

Richard Hertz wrote:

>
> On Friday, 23 August 2019 17:46:14 UTC-3, The Starmaker wrote:
> > INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> >
> > Is information like math, an invention of man?
> >
> > Information has no independent existence...
> >
> > it doesn't exist.
>

> Yes, information exists. And it's not only produced by humans.
>
> It's how raw data from surroundings is filtered, processed, stored and used by any living organism here on Earth and everywhere where life exists.
>
> 8 million living species, only at Earth, support that. And it goes from bacterias and viruses all the way up to 8,000 mammal species, which uses information they created by gathering raw data with their senses (whatever they are).


"raw data"??? wat is dat, information from information? You're
projecting this stuff..it doesn't exist ...out there.

[The Starmaker]

Sylvia Else wrote:
>
> On 24/08/2019 3:06 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>
> >> On 24/08/2019 2:05 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>> Sylvia Else wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
> >>>>> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be
> >>>> answered.
> >>>>
> >>>> How are you defining "information"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sylvia.
> >>>
> >>> Which ever way You define it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I define it as something that exists.
> >>
> >> Sylvia.
> >
> > "something"? Are you sayin 'information' is a thing? All things are made of atoms. Are you sayin 'information' is made of atoms???? Or somehing...Else?
> >
> >
>
> Electrons are not made of atoms. Are they not things?
>

What is an electron made of?

>
> Beyond that I'm just emphasising the need for a definition of the terms
> used before your question can be answered.

Any definition of "information" will suffice.

> Sylvia.

[Earl Sneed]

Sylvia Else wrote:

> On 24/08/2019 2:05 pm, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>
>>> On 24/08/2019 6:47 am, The Starmaker wrote:
>>>> INFORMATION...does it really exist?
>>>
>>> You need a precise definition of the term before the question can be

>>> answered.How are you defining "information"? Sylvia.

>>
>> Which ever way You define it.
>
> I define it as something that exists.

irrelevant nonsense. Info is an observable change of state, event or
events. It's up to the observer to interpret those events (historically).
Do it again.

[Sergio]

Starfarter definitely don't know.

His information slid off his cracker long ago.

[The Starmaker]

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> Richard Hertz wrote:
> >
> > On Friday, 23 August 2019 17:46:14 UTC-3, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> > >
> > > Is information like math, an invention of man?
> > >
> > > Information has no independent existence...
> > >
> > > it doesn't exist.
> >
> > Yes, information exists. And it's not only produced by humans.
> >
> > It's how raw data from surroundings is filtered, processed, stored and used by any living organism here on Earth and everywhere where life exists.
> >
> > 8 million living species, only at Earth, support that. And it goes from bacterias and viruses all the way up to 8,000 mammal species, which uses information they created by gathering raw data with their senses (whatever they are).
>
> "raw data"??? wat is dat, information from information? You're
> projecting this stuff..it doesn't exist ...out there.
>

I mean, I understand the universe 'appears' to be mathematical...but that is just...projection.

Whether the universe is that of a bacteria or our earth, ...it's just activity surrounding you that you don't understand and you name it...information.

But it doesn't exist. Information does not exist out there.

[The Starmaker]

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > Richard Hertz wrote:
> > >
> > > On Friday, 23 August 2019 17:46:14 UTC-3, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> > > >
> > > > Is information like math, an invention of man?
> > > >
> > > > Information has no independent existence...
> > > >
> > > > it doesn't exist.
> > >
> > > Yes, information exists. And it's not only produced by humans.
> > >
> > > It's how raw data from surroundings is filtered, processed, stored and used by any living organism here on Earth and everywhere where life exists.
> > >
> > > 8 million living species, only at Earth, support that. And it goes from bacterias and viruses all the way up to 8,000 mammal species, which uses information they created by gathering raw data with their senses (whatever they are).
> >
> > "raw data"??? wat is dat, information from information? You're
> > projecting this stuff..it doesn't exist ...out there.
> >
>
> I mean, I understand the universe 'appears' to be mathematical...but that is just...projection.
>
> Whether the universe is that of a bacteria or our earth, ...it's just activity surrounding you that you don't understand and you name it...information.
>
> But it doesn't exist. Information does not exist out there.
>

In other words, if you want to know what tomorrows lottery number are going to be...you better off asking your
dog, cat or parrot. Dogs, cats and birds simply look at the balls (not the numbers) and try to figure out the forces that guide them.

There is no information...there is just highly complex activity that only one with a birdbrain can understand.

[The Starmaker]

Well sillveea else seems to know what electrons are NOT made of, ... I don't see anybody sayin what electrons ARE made of.

[Mitch Raemsch]

Where is the hidden dark matter data?
God creates.

Mitchell Raemsch

[Paul S Person]

The same things quarks are made of, no doubt.

We just haven't reached that Turtle yet.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

[Sergio]

it is hidden.

[The Starmaker]

i mean, come on...giveabrake...can you see 'information' in dna, or is it just...stuff?



Maybe you need to put on information glasses to actually SEE information...

[The Starmaker]

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Richard Hertz wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Friday, 23 August 2019 17:46:14 UTC-3, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > > > INFORMATION...does it really exist?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is information like math, an invention of man?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Information has no independent existence...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > it doesn't exist.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, information exists. And it's not only produced by humans.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's how raw data from surroundings is filtered, processed, stored and used by any living organism here on Earth and everywhere where life exists.
> > > > >
> > > > > 8 million living species, only at Earth, support that. And it goes from bacterias and viruses all the way up to 8,000 mammal species, which uses information they created by gathering raw data with their senses (whatever they are).
> > > >
> > > > "raw data"??? wat is dat, information from information? You're
> > > > projecting this stuff..it doesn't exist ...out there.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I mean, I understand the universe 'appears' to be mathematical...but that is just...projection.
> > >
> > > Whether the universe is that of a bacteria or our earth, ...it's just activity surrounding you that you don't understand and you name it...information.
> > >
> > > But it doesn't exist. Information does not exist out there.
> > >
> >
> > In other words, if you want to know what tomorrows lottery number are going to be...you better off asking your
> > dog, cat or parrot. Dogs, cats and birds simply look at the balls (not the numbers) and try to figure out the forces that guide them.
> >
> > There is no information...there is just highly complex activity that only one with a birdbrain can understand.
>
> i mean, come on...giveabrake...can you see 'information' in dna, or is it just...stuff?
>
> Maybe you need to put on information glasses to actually SEE information...

if you take an ant
and you take it apart..
even look at all the stuff
with a micoscope...
do you see any...
information..
in there somewhere?

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT INFORMATION LOOKS LIKE!!!!

[The Starmaker]

Wait a minute, wait a minute..if I put on my 'information glasses' and look at my DNA.. I can see Letters, A, C, G, T!

Wow! I can see ...INFORMATION!!! Wat is dat twisted ladder I see???? A double helix? I hope you science guys are not tricking me and
actually just came up with a drawing of a twisted ladder, wat about those four letters? Did you make dat up too???

[The Starmaker]

Okay, so there are no A, C, G, T letters, and no twisted ladders..yous just made that up..bacteria and organisms are just too complex, all you see is gooey stuff.



How about a ...computer? Is there information in a computer? Take apart your desktop computer and look through everything, brak up all the pieces until
you find...information. There is none..just wrires, boards, chips, how about the hard drive? Take that apart untill you find something..

maybe, just maybe..it's in the software...

what are all those....010100101011010100101011010101010100010100101010? On off, off on, off off, on, on off..


ants don't need that much time bumping into each other.

[The Starmaker]

This might not make any sense to you...
but if you have a dream of your computer, you cannot turn it On or Off.

Go ahead
if you are dreaming and
your computer is on, try turning it Off.

If it is Off, try turning it On.

it won't go On or Off.

What does that mean?

[The Starmaker]

Simply put, the software running to program dreams does not use 0, 1

[The Starmaker]

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> This might not make any sense to you...
> but if you have a dream of your computer, you cannot turn it On or Off.
>
> Go ahead
> if you are dreaming and
> your computer is on, try turning it Off.
>
> If it is Off, try turning it On.
>
> it won't go On or Off.
>
> What does that mean?
>

Now, when you dream you will dream of people you do know...but
the dream machine will also bring up you have no idea who they are..

so who are these people you never seen before?

How can people you never seen before or recognize be in your dreams??

They don't even look like people you don't know.

So, how does the dream machine find people you don't know? People who don't
even exist in the real world? Who are these people???

[The Starmaker]

i forgot to take apart the computer monitor...


and the mouse
and the keyboard

[The Starmaker]

The Starmaker wrote:
>
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > This might not make any sense to you...
> > but if you have a dream of your computer, you cannot turn it On or Off.
> >
> > Go ahead
> > if you are dreaming and
> > your computer is on, try turning it Off.
> >
> > If it is Off, try turning it On.
> >
> > it won't go On or Off.
> >
> > What does that mean?
> >
>
> Now, when you dream you will dream of people you do know...but
> the dream machine will also bring up you have no idea who they are..
>
> so who are these people you never seen before?
>
> How can people you never seen before or recognize be in your dreams??
>
> They don't even look like people you don't know.
>
> So, how does the dream machine find people you don't know? People who don't
> even exist in the real world? Who are these people???
>

Of course if I was living in China, everybody in the dream would look alike! it would be a nightmare...

[The Starmaker]

I'll explain how it works...

even if you
had a photographic memory
and able to remember
everyone on earths...face,
you would still
see unrecognizable faces
in your dreams.

[Mitch Raemsch]

What is the data on the information situation?
God creates.

Mitchell Raemsch

[Sergio]

Starfarter is like a black box, information goes in, but nothing comes out

[The Starmaker]

for example...

a movie uses extras
for background..

and

you tell someone
"You have your mother's eyes, and your father's nose and mouth."


The dream machine uses the same...system.

It picks up eyes here and a nose there..

until it buids an extra for the movie.


Just like nature, dreams 'morph' faces.


That's where strangers in your dreams come from...


sort of like this:


https://thispersondoesnotexist.com



"You have your mother's eyes, and your father's nose and mouth."

you are either a morph or you-do-not-exist.

[Chris M. Thomasson]

On 8/23/2019 2:32 PM, Earl Sneed wrote:
> The Starmaker wrote:
>
>> INFORMATION...does it really exist? Is information like math, an
>> invention of man? Information has no independent existence...
>> it doesn't exist.
>

> That's true, but it does exists. Noise is sort of not understood
> information.
>


This is the all of information, the crap and the good, contained within
the infinite library of babel. What info is good, and what is bad?
Infinite information, the good and the bad, has to contain blueprints
for Bob Lazar.... ;^)

[The Starmaker]

actually, you don't exist because
you have your mother's eyes, not your eyes...

you have your father's nose, not your nose.


you were morphed.

Are those your eyes, or your mother's eyes?

[Lední Tuláku]

A corporation and an institute/university will never prove Relativity
wrong, the Evolution and the moon landing. That's the infinite library of
babel.