Procedures and Methods for measuring (testing) the weigh of moist air versus dry air

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James McGinn

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:30:35 PM2/27/16
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Procedures and Methods for measuring (testing) the weigh of moist air versus dry air

Purpose:
Compare the weight of moist air versus dry air, all other factors being controlled

Materials needed:
Mason jars, one dozen (to repeat controlled experiment 4 times)
Aluminum foil , one square foot
Fishing line, one yard, scissors
Cotton ball
Distilled water, one ounce
Access to warm, dry room, or dry environment, like a desert setting
Extremely sensitive scales that can measure extremely small differences in weight between mason jars
Vacuum pump

Procedures:
In warm, dry room, or windless, desert environment set up a table.

Prepare two, two by two inch squares of aluminum foil enclosed around a cotton ball with fishing line, such that the whole thing can be lowered into an open mason jar, without contaminating the jar with cotton or precipitate from the water droplet.

Open three of the mason jars and let the ambient air balance in all three. Fan them to balance the air in all three.

In one of the two aluminum foil, cotton, fishing line thingies put a drop of distilled water. Be sure to allow for moisture to evaporate out of it

Lower both of these thingies into two of the jars.

Turn the lids upside down for all three jars and place them over the top of the jars, this will trap any moisture and prevent it from "convecting" away. Wait for ten minutes, or so, allowing for evaporation.

Any moisture should have evaporated in from the thingies into the mason jars. This should have increased the moisture level in the one jar and should have left it unchanged in the other jars. The moisture having pushed out a equal number of air particles.

Carefully remove the thingies and screw the top on the jars tightly.

Be sure to only handle jars with latex gloves, don't tape or glue anything to jars. Put jars in plastic bags to protect them from contamination. Be sure to distinguish which jar is which. And be sure to keep respective sets together.

Weigh the mason jars and record their respective weights
Open lid, fan to balance humidity level and weigh again
Evacuate all with pump and weigh again.

Produce a data table with all of the respective weights for all three of the jars. Repeat for all additional (three) sets of jars.

Evaluate data.

If the moist air jar is heavier (as I claim) then my premise is proven.
If it is lighter then the traditional understanding is proven.
If there is no measurable different then more precise scales are needed.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:40:05 PM2/27/16
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Density of Dry Air
The density of dry air can be expressed as:

ρa = 0.0035 pa / T (1)

where

ρa = density dry air (kg/m3)

pa = partial pressure of air (Pa, N/m2)

T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)




Density of Water Vapor
The density of water vapor can be expressed as:

ρw = 0.0022 pw / T (2)

where

pw = partial pressure water vapor (Pa, N/m2)

ρw = density water vapor (kg/m3)

T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)



Ref: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-air-d_680.html



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community, and physics-related social issues.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:52:32 PM2/27/16
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> Density of Moist Air - an Air Vapor Mixture

> The amount of water vapor in air will influence the density. Water
> vapor is a relatively light *gas* compared to diatomic Oxygen and
> diatomic Nitrogen - the dominant components in air.
>
> When the vapor content increase in moist air the amount of Oxygen and
> Nitrogen are decreased per unit volume and the density of the mix
> will also decrease since the mass is decreasing.
>
> *Dry air is more dense that humid air* !

Sergio

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:52:56 PM2/27/16
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On 2/27/2016 8:30 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> Procedures and Methods for measuring (testing) the weigh of moist air
> versus dry air
>
> Purpose: Compare the weight of moist air versus dry air, all other
> factors being controlled
>
> Materials needed: Mason jars, one dozen (to repeat controlled
> experiment 4 times) Aluminum foil , one square foot Fishing line, one
> yard, scissors Cotton ball Distilled water, one ounce Access to warm,
> dry room, or dry environment, like a desert setting Extremely
> sensitive scales that can measure extremely small differences in
> weight between mason jars Vacuum pump
>
> Procedures: In warm, dry room, or windless, desert environment set up
> a table.
>
> Prepare two, two by two inch squares of aluminum foil enclosed around
> a cotton ball with fishing line, such that the whole thing can be
> lowered into an open mason jar, without contaminating the jar with
> cotton or precipitate from the water droplet.
>
> Open three of the mason jars and let the ambient air balance in all
> three. Fan them to balance the air in all three.
>
> In one of the two aluminum foil, cotton, fishing line thingies put a
> drop of distilled water. Be sure to allow for moisture to evaporate
> out of it

evaporate ?
liquid water disappears into the air,
water turn into a GAS ?

you said this is impossible, did your little troll brain forget ?


So you are loony toony, delusional, and a stinking little brony

James McGinn

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:56:29 PM2/27/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:40:05 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> Density of Dry Air
> The density of dry air can be expressed as:
>
> ρa = 0.0035 pa / T (1)
>
> where
>
> ρa = density dry air (kg/m3)
>
> pa = partial pressure of air (Pa, N/m2)
>
> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
>
>
>
>
> Density of Water Vapor
> The density of water vapor can be expressed as:
>
> ρw = 0.0022 pw / T (2)
>
> where
>
> pw = partial pressure water vapor (Pa, N/m2)
>
> ρw = density water vapor (kg/m3)
>
> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
>
>
>
> Ref: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-air-d_680.html

Sam,

These procedures will test whether the particles of moisture are multi-molecular, as I claim, or monomolecular, as you and engineering toolbox claim. If the jar with moisture is heavier, as I predict, then I am right. If it is lighter, then you and engineering toolbox are right.

The underlying theory is based on standard gas laws and Avogadro's law.

Do you get it?

James McGinn

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Feb 27, 2016, 9:57:36 PM2/27/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:52:32 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> > Density of Moist Air - an Air Vapor Mixture
>
> > The amount of water vapor in air will influence the density. Water
> > vapor is a relatively light *gas* compared to diatomic Oxygen and
> > diatomic Nitrogen - the dominant components in air.
> >
> > When the vapor content increase in moist air the amount of Oxygen and
> > Nitrogen are decreased per unit volume and the density of the mix
> > will also decrease since the mass is decreasing.
> >
> > *Dry air is more dense that humid air* !

This tests for weight, not density.

pnal...@gmail.com

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Feb 27, 2016, 10:31:52 PM2/27/16
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But all along you have claimed that moist air is denser than dry air... of course it is about the density...

Besides this, your so-called "controlled" experiment, as you have described, is something that might be done at a cub scout meeting, it is laughable! It really does not sound at all like an experiment that a 'real' physicist would ever consider. In college I performed dozens and dozens of experiments in physics labs, and virtually ALL of them were more rigorous that what you have described! what a joke. Do you really epec this to be accepted as a "proof"?

James McGinn

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Feb 27, 2016, 10:54:56 PM2/27/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 7:31:52 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:57:36 PM UTC-8, James McGinn wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:52:32 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > > Density of Moist Air - an Air Vapor Mixture
> > >
> > > > The amount of water vapor in air will influence the density. Water
> > > > vapor is a relatively light *gas* compared to diatomic Oxygen and
> > > > diatomic Nitrogen - the dominant components in air.
> > > >
> > > > When the vapor content increase in moist air the amount of Oxygen and
> > > > Nitrogen are decreased per unit volume and the density of the mix
> > > > will also decrease since the mass is decreasing.
> > > >
> > > > *Dry air is more dense that humid air* !
> >
> > This tests for weight, not density.
>
> But all along you have claimed that moist air is denser than dry air...

Not me.

Sergio

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Feb 27, 2016, 11:38:26 PM2/27/16
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Liar ! ... that is why you are in an institution!


what happened to your videos on you tube ?

why did you take them down ?

was it the feedback ?

did people enjoy your advanced intellectualism ?

James McGinn

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Feb 27, 2016, 11:51:23 PM2/27/16
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Maybe you could make a video about your problems with wetness.

pnal...@gmail.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 12:11:22 AM2/28/16
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Well, yes, you did make that claim.

It makes no difference in any case, because when measuring equal volumes, the heavier is also the densest... after all, D=m/v

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 12:55:42 AM2/28/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:11:22 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:

> It makes no difference in any case, because when measuring equal volumes, the heavier is also the densest... after all, D=m/v

As you suggest, it can mean that. But, as I've explained about 20 times now, it can also mean H2O/air. In fact this is what meteorologists measure.

The only question that remains is how many more fucking times will I have to explain this to you morons.

pnal...@gmail.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 1:28:32 AM2/28/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:55:42 PM UTC-8, James McGinn wrote:
> On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:11:22 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > It makes no difference in any case, because when measuring equal volumes, the heavier is also the densest... after all, D=m/v
>
> As you suggest, it can mean that. But, as I've explained about 20 times now, it can also mean H2O/air. In fact this is what meteorologists measure.

But H2O/air is lighter than just air and not as dense (as long as the H2O is in the form of water vapor, of course)!

> The only question that remains is how many more fucking times will I have to explain this to you morons.

But you haven't explained anything!

Solving Tornadoes

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Feb 28, 2016, 2:08:48 AM2/28/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:28:32 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:55:42 PM UTC-8, James McGinn wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:11:22 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > It makes no difference in any case, because when measuring equal volumes, the heavier is also the densest... after all, D=m/v
> >
> > As you suggest, it can mean that. But, as I've explained about 20 times now, it can also mean H2O/air. In fact this is what meteorologists measure.
>
> But H2O/air is lighter than just air and not as dense (as long as the H2O is in the form of water vapor, of course)!

I'm not sure, but I think you are starting to understand. Maybe it is best for you to quit while you're ahead.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 28, 2016, 1:52:14 PM2/28/16
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James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
mean water (H2O) gas. When the temperature of atmospheric water vapour
falls to the dew point, liquid water can form. You denial of water
vapour in the earth's atmosphere has you all bollixed up.

Have not you ever seen a "dry rain" -- rain falling from clouds, but
never reaching the ground as it re-evaporates to gaseous H2O?

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 3:38:11 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 10:52:14 AM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 2/27/16 8:56 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:40:05 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> >> Density of Dry Air
> >> The density of dry air can be expressed as:
> >>
> >> ρa = 0.0035 pa / T (1)
> >>
> >> where
> >>
> >> ρa = density dry air (kg/m3)
> >>
> >> pa = partial pressure of air (Pa, N/m2)
> >>
> >> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Density of Water Vapor
> >> The density of water vapor can be expressed as:
> >>
> >> ρw = 0.0022 pw / T (2)
> >>
> >> where
> >>
> >> pw = partial pressure water vapor (Pa, N/m2)
> >>
> >> ρw = density water vapor (kg/m3)
> >>
> >> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ref: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-air-d_680.html
> >
> > Sam,
> >
> > These procedures will test whether the particles of moisture are multi-molecular, as I claim, or monomolecular, as you and engineering toolbox claim. If the jar with moisture is heavier, as I predict, then I am right. If it is lighter, then you and engineering toolbox are right.
> >
> > The underlying theory is based on standard gas laws and Avogadro's law.
> >
> > Do you get it?
> >
>
>
> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
> mean water (H2O) gas.

Yeah, that's the belief, Sam. But if moist air is heavier that would indicate that the belief is false. And if the belief is, in fact, false that would indicate that major parts of meteorology are a myth. And since climatology was built upon meteorology, that would indicate that major parts of climatology are also a myth. And if major parts of climatology are a myth that would indicate that global warming is not an emergency. And if global warming is not an emergency that would open people's minds to being cognizant of the true threat that is facing mankind, evil penguins.

> When the temperature of atmospheric water vapour
> falls to the dew point, liquid water can form. You denial of water
> vapour in the earth's atmosphere has you all bollixed up.
>
> Have not you ever seen a "dry rain" -- rain falling from clouds, but
> never reaching the ground as it re-evaporates to gaseous H2O?

Hmm, maybe your dry rain will help us understand why Sergio can't get his smoking wet pants dry. But I consider both of you to be penguin deniers.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 28, 2016, 4:04:17 PM2/28/16
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On 2/28/16 2:38 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 10:52:14 AM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:

>>
>>
>> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
>> mean water (H2O) gas.

> Yeah, that's the belief, Sam. But if moist air is heavier that would
> indicate that the belief is false. And if the belief is, in fact,
> false that would indicate that major parts of meteorology are a myth.
> And since climatology was built upon meteorology, that would indicate
> that major parts of climatology are also a myth. And if major parts
> of climatology are a myth that would indicate that global warming is
> not an emergency. And if global warming is not an emergency that
> would open people's minds to being cognizant of the true threat that
> is facing mankind, evil penguins.
>


But water vapor is lighter than dry air and is observed daily to
produce upward convection. Have you never lived by a lake? Or observed
the evaporating H2O over crop land spawn thunderstorms?

There is no doubt that:

Water vapour (H2O) like Oxygen (O2) like Nitrogen (N2) is an invisible
gas. There is nothing to see.

> Water vapour (H2O molecules)

> Water vapor, water vapour or aqueous vapor, is the *gaseous phase* of
> water. It is one state of water within the hydrosphere. Water vapor
> can be produced from the *evaporation or boiling of liquid water* or
> from the *sublimation of ice* . Unlike other forms of water, water
> vapor is invisible. Under typical atmospheric conditions, water vapor
> is continuously generated by evaporation and removed by condensation.
> It is *lighter than air* and *triggers convection currents* that can
> lead to clouds.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 4:46:05 PM2/28/16
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No, that is the definition.


--
Jim Pennino

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 4:47:48 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:04:17 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:

> But water vapor is lighter than dry air

You have no proof.

http://scottishsceptic.co.uk/2011/08/26/how-to-get-off-the-ground-with-nothing-but-water-almost/#comment-39179

> and is observed daily

Anecdotal.

> to produce upward convection. Have you never lived by a lake? Or observed
> the evaporating H2O over crop land spawn thunderstorms?

Anecdotal.

> There is no doubt that:
>
> Water vapour (H2O) like Oxygen (O2) like Nitrogen (N2) is an invisible
> gas. There is nothing to see.

Anecdotal.

You should get some education is scientific methodology.

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 4:59:48 PM2/28/16
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Can it not be both?

Sergio

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:06:45 PM2/28/16
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On 2/28/2016 3:47 PM, James McGinn wrote:

boob troll boy James "tweeker" McGinn can't figure out how water gets up
to the clouds in his world of "moisture air".

last time boob trollboy J"t"M said "plasma", without knowing plasma's
are dissociated ions.

but all he says, is without knowing. Easier to make stuff up in his
delusional world of fictional sworlie tormatoes, heavy wet air, and no
water vapor, than to go to the effort to study the scientific body of
knowledge, which would just drain out of the holes in his brain anyway.
and James, you are a gas bigot, air is invisable too, and you admit
there is air, but you hate water vapor.


James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:20:29 PM2/28/16
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It's comical how angry you nitwits are when somebody doesn't conform with your brain-dead, sheepish, unscientific tendency to turn science based beliefs into a cult.

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:36:25 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:59:48 PM UTC-8, James McGinn wrote:

> > >> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
> > >> mean water (H2O) gas.
> > >
> > > Yeah, that's the belief, Sam.
> >
> > No, that is the definition.
>
> Can it not be both?

Duhr.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:43:22 PM2/28/16
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On 2/28/16 4:20 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> It's comical how angry you nitwits are when somebody doesn't conform
> with your brain-dead, sheepish, unscientific tendency to turn science
> based beliefs into a cult.


More likely some are trying to help you understand that measured
properties of water, liquid, ice and gas, the role water vapour plays
is the earth's atmosphere, how physics measurements are made and basic
physics, and finally about physics literature.

In other words, some are trying to help you, a wayward sheep.

I always wondered (and still do) why you started posting in
sci.physics?

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:46:04 PM2/28/16
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It is your delusions that are comical, i.e. any experiment, observation,
or definition that threatens your delusions is "anecdotal".

Seek professional help for your mental health issues.


--
Jim Pennino

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:46:05 PM2/28/16
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No, fool.

Let us now add "definition" to the ever growing list of words this delusional
fool doesn't understand.


--
Jim Pennino

Sergio

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:47:31 PM2/28/16
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it is comical when you are trapped in your own corner, troll !

You still cannot answer these simple questions,

1. how does your shirt dry out on a clothes line ?

2. How does water get up in the air to make clouds ?


answer NOW !!


(can't ? we understand your limitations in math, science, intellegence,
and reality. But when you're just making stuff up a looney-toonie style,
like a delusional Citizen Toxie, the hordes snicker at you.)

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 5:53:13 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 2:46:05 PM UTC-8, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

> >> >> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
> >> >> mean water (H2O) gas.
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, that's the belief, Sam.
> >>
> >> No, that is the definition.
> >
> > Can it not be both?
>
> No,

No? Wow, you are a genuine imbecile.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 6:01:07 PM2/28/16
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He probably thinks this is clever.


--
Jim Pennino

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 6:11:57 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 2:46:05 PM UTC-8, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

> >> No, that is the definition.
> >
> > Can it not be both?
>
> No, fool.
>
> Let us now add "definition" to the ever growing list of words this delusional
> fool doesn't understand.

I'm embarassed for having wasted my time talking with such complete fools.

Sam Wormley

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Feb 28, 2016, 6:18:51 PM2/28/16
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On 2/28/16 5:11 PM, James McGinn wrote:
>
> I'm embarassed for having wasted my time talking with such complete fools.
>


Let's see if we can find some common ground, James. Perhaps we could
start with the existence of gaseous water--single molecules of H2O.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:01:04 PM2/28/16
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Like I said, we can add the words "definition" and "belief" to the ever
growing list of words this fool doesn't understand.


--
Jim Pennino

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:01:05 PM2/28/16
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In other words, you have backed yourself into a corner with your delusions.

Seek professional help for your delusions.


--
Jim Pennino

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:01:06 PM2/28/16
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Sam Wormley <swor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/28/16 5:11 PM, James McGinn wrote:
>>
>> I'm embarassed for having wasted my time talking with such complete fools.
>>
>
>
> Let's see if we can find some common ground, James. Perhaps we could
> start with the existence of gaseous water--single molecules of H2O.

What possible common ground could there be with someone that doesn't
understand the difference between "belief" and "definition"?



--
Jim Pennino

James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:07:07 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 3:18:51 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 2/28/16 5:11 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> >
> > I'm embarassed for having wasted my time talking with such complete fools.
> >
>
>
> Let's see if we can find some common ground, James. Perhaps we could
> start with the existence of gaseous water--single molecules of H2O.

I'll tell you what, Sam, answer these two questions

1) Do you believe droplets of H2O can be suspended in the atmosphere?

2) Do you believe that these same droplets can be small enough to be invisible?

I answer affirmatively to both questions. If you do not then we can only agree to disagree.

Fair enough?

Sergio

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:14:09 PM2/28/16
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what about single molecules of H2O, can they exist or be suspended in
the atmosphere ?

can you answer affirmatively to this question ?

Sam Wormley

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:22:25 PM2/28/16
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On 2/28/16 6:07 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> I'll tell you what, Sam, answer these two questions
>
> 1) Do you believe droplets of H2O can be suspended in the atmosphere?

Yes--Fog, Clouds. Gaseous H2O condenses when the local atmospheric
temperature falls to the dew point, forming fog and clouds, but
not before.

Rising water vapour (gaseous H2O being lighter than oxygen O2 and
Nitrogen N2) rises because it is lighter forming convection
currents.

>
> 2) Do you believe that these same droplets can be small enough to be invisible?

No, as one can see the droplets with a microscope. We tend to see
condensed water as fog and clouds. Gaseous H2O condenses when the
local atmospheric temperature falls to the local dew point,
forming fog and clouds, but not before.

>
> I answer affirmatively to both questions. If you do not then we can only agree to disagree.
>
> Fair enough?




James McGinn

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Feb 28, 2016, 7:28:28 PM2/28/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 4:22:25 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:


> > 2) Do you believe that these same droplets can be small enough to be invisible?
>
> No.

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

Sergio

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Feb 28, 2016, 8:22:23 PM2/28/16
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On 2/27/2016 11:55 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 9:11:22 PM UTC-8, pnal...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> It makes no difference in any case, because when measuring equal
>> volumes, the heavier is also the densest... after all, D=m/v
>
> As you suggest, it can mean that. But, as I've explained about 20
> times now, it can also mean H2O/air.

"H2O/air", WTF is that ? Water Gas ? what 20 times, each time you have
a different spew.


> In fact this is what
> meteorologists measure.

no, typical measurement of humidity is... => You go google it, pupa.

>
> The only question that remains is how many more fucking times will I
> have to explain this to you morons.

explaining why you don't believe in common science facts, without any
math or science behind it, will take a really really long time.


James McGinn

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Feb 29, 2016, 12:18:21 AM2/29/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:30:35 PM UTC-8, James McGinn wrote:
>
Procedures and Methods for measuring (testing) the weigh of moist air versus dry air
>
> Purpose:
> Compare the weight of moist air versus dry air, all other factors being controlled
>
> Materials needed:
> Mason jars, one dozen (to repeat controlled experiment 4 times)
> Aluminum foil , one square foot
> Fishing line, one yard, scissors
> Cotton ball
> Distilled water, one ounce
> Access to warm, dry room, or dry environment, like a desert setting
> Extremely sensitive scales that can measure extremely small differences in weight between mason jars
> Vacuum pump
>
> Procedures:
> In warm, dry room, or windless, desert environment set up a table.
>
> Prepare two, two by two inch squares of aluminum foil enclosed around a cotton ball with fishing line, such that the whole thing can be lowered into an open mason jar, without contaminating the jar with cotton or precipitate from the water droplet.
>
> Open three of the mason jars and let the ambient air balance in all three. Fan them to balance the air in all three.
>
> In one of the two aluminum foil, cotton, fishing line thingies put a drop of distilled water. Be sure to allow for moisture to evaporate out of it
>
> Lower both of these thingies into two of the jars.
>
> Turn the lids upside down for all three jars and place them over the top of the jars, this will trap any moisture and prevent it from "convecting" away. Wait for ten minutes, or so, allowing for evaporation.
>
> Any moisture should have evaporated in from the thingies into the mason jars. This should have increased the moisture level in the one jar and should have left it unchanged in the other jars. The moisture having pushed out a equal number of air particles.
>
> Carefully remove the thingies and screw the top on the jars tightly.
>
> Be sure to only handle jars with latex gloves, don't tape or glue anything to jars. Put jars in plastic bags to protect them from contamination. Be sure to distinguish which jar is which. And be sure to keep respective sets together.
>
> Weigh the mason jars and record their respective weights
> Open lid, fan to balance humidity level and weigh again
> Evacuate all with pump and weigh again.
>
> Produce a data table with all of the respective weights for all three of the jars. Repeat for all additional (three) sets of jars.
>
> Evaluate data.
>
> If the moist air jar is heavier (as I claim) then my premise is proven.
> If it is lighter then the traditional understanding is proven.
> If there is no measurable different then more precise scales are needed.

noTthaTguY

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Feb 29, 2016, 4:12:14 PM2/29/16
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you may have a postulate as to why,
if HOH is lighter than air,
it should increase the weight of air. so, I gather that
you say it is because HOH does not occur in the gas phase,
by refusing to completely evaporate

James McGinn

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Feb 29, 2016, 5:53:52 PM2/29/16
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On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 1:12:14 PM UTC-8, noTthaTguY wrote:
> you may have a postulate as to why,
> if HOH is lighter than air,
> it should increase the weight of air. so, I gather that
> you say it is because HOH does not occur in the gas phase,
> by refusing to completely evaporate

On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 1:12:14 PM UTC-8, noTthaTguY wrote:
> you may have a postulate as to why,
> if HOH is lighter than air,
> it should increase the weight of air. so, I gather that
> you say it is because HOH does not occur in the gas phase,
> by refusing to completely evaporate

Right. Even when it is invisible it is still liquid droplets/cluster. In fact it is impossible, because water's boiling point has been well established by the laboratory evidence.

How was it that it took you this long to figure out that this was my postulate?

Sam Wormley

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Feb 29, 2016, 6:33:55 PM2/29/16
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On 2/29/16 4:53 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> Even when it is invisible it is still liquid droplets/cluster.


Except when it [water] is gas, which is most of the time.

James McGinn

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Mar 1, 2016, 2:35:01 AM3/1/16
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On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:52:56 PM UTC-8, Sergio wrote:
> On 2/27/2016 8:30 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> > Procedures and Methods for measuring (testing) the weigh of moist air
> > versus dry air
> >
> > Purpose: Compare the weight of moist air versus dry air, all other
> > factors being controlled
> >
> > Materials needed: Mason jars, one dozen (to repeat controlled
> > experiment 4 times) Aluminum foil , one square foot Fishing line, one
> > yard, scissors Cotton ball Distilled water, one ounce Access to warm,
> > dry room, or dry environment, like a desert setting Extremely
> > sensitive scales that can measure extremely small differences in
> > weight between mason jars Vacuum pump
> >
> > Procedures: In warm, dry room, or windless, desert environment set up
> > a table.
> >
> > Prepare two, two by two inch squares of aluminum foil enclosed around
> > a cotton ball with fishing line, such that the whole thing can be
> > lowered into an open mason jar, without contaminating the jar with
> > cotton or precipitate from the water droplet.
> >
> > Open three of the mason jars and let the ambient air balance in all
> > three. Fan them to balance the air in all three.
> >
> > In one of the two aluminum foil, cotton, fishing line thingies put a
> > drop of distilled water. Be sure to allow for moisture to evaporate
> > out of it
>
> evaporate ?
> liquid water disappears into the air,
> water turn into a GAS ?
>
>
you said this is impossible, did your little troll brain forget ?
>
>
> So you are loony toony, delusional, and a stinking little brony

noTthaTguY

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Mar 2, 2016, 2:37:06 PM3/2/16
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given the relative humidity (r.h,
it is hard for drops to form when it is less than 1 (one;
more than one is supersaturated, whence falleth raindrops

James McGinn

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Mar 2, 2016, 4:32:17 PM3/2/16
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On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 11:37:06 AM UTC-8, noTthaTguY wrote:
> given the relative humidity (r.h,
> it is hard for drops to form when it is less than 1 (one;
> more than one is supersaturated, whence falleth raindrops

Is this a question, or a statement? What's your point?

James McGinn

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Mar 2, 2016, 6:36:12 PM3/2/16
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On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 3:33:55 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 2/29/16 4:53 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> > Even when it is invisible it is still liquid droplets/cluster.
>
>
> Except when it [water] is gas, which is most of the time.

Sam, do you have any proof that clear air is gaseous?

Answer the question you evasive AGW loon.

Solving Tornadoes

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Mar 2, 2016, 6:59:40 PM3/2/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 10:52:14 AM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 2/27/16 8:56 PM, James McGinn wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:40:05 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> >> Density of Dry Air
> >> The density of dry air can be expressed as:
> >>
> >> ρa = 0.0035 pa / T (1)
> >>
> >> where
> >>
> >> ρa = density dry air (kg/m3)
> >>
> >> pa = partial pressure of air (Pa, N/m2)
> >>
> >> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Density of Water Vapor
> >> The density of water vapor can be expressed as:
> >>
> >> ρw = 0.0022 pw / T (2)
> >>
> >> where
> >>
> >> pw = partial pressure water vapor (Pa, N/m2)
> >>
> >> ρw = density water vapor (kg/m3)
> >>
> >> T = absolute dry bulb temperature (K)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ref: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-air-d_680.html
> >
> > Sam,
> >
> > These procedures will test whether the particles of moisture are multi-molecular, as I claim, or monomolecular, as you and engineering toolbox claim. If the jar with moisture is heavier, as I predict, then I am right. If it is lighter, then you and engineering toolbox are right.
> >
> > The underlying theory is based on standard gas laws and Avogadro's law.
> >
> > Do you get it?
> >
>
>
> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
> mean water (H2O) gas.

I'm not saying many people don't believe that. I'm just saying that nobody has any proof.


> When the temperature of atmospheric water vapour
> falls to the dew point, liquid water can form. You denial of water
> vapour

Well, know. But the fact is that nobody can prove that clear air is gaseous. It's just something a lot of people believe. Kind of like children and the tooth fairy.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:01:06 PM3/2/16
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James McGinn <jimmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 3:33:55 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
>> On 2/29/16 4:53 PM, James McGinn wrote:
>> > Even when it is invisible it is still liquid droplets/cluster.
>>
>>
>> Except when it [water] is gas, which is most of the time.
>
> Sam, do you have any proof that clear air is gaseous?

Have you the slightest clue just how mind boggling, blaziningly, and
absolutely ignorant that question is?


--
Jim Pennino

Solving Tornadoes

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:05:16 PM3/2/16
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On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:04:17 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:

> But water vapor is lighter than dry air

There is an abundance of cool dry air a few hundred meters above any point on the planet. If it is heavier and the warm moist air along the surface is lighter why does it not just come falling down constantly, always.

The obvious answer is that moist air contains microdroplets, not gaseous H2O and is, therefore, heavier.

Do you have any proof that clear, moist air contains gaseous H2O?


> and is observed daily to
> produce upward convection.

Actually, that is not true. It rushes up occasionally, in storms. So there is something wrong with your theory.

BTW, my theory explains storms too.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:16:07 PM3/2/16
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Solving Tornadoes <solvingt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 10:52:14 AM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:

<snip>

>> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
>> mean water (H2O) gas.
>
> I'm not saying many people don't believe that. I'm just saying that
> nobody has any proof.

It has nothing to do with proof, it is a definition.

--
Jim Pennino

Solving Tornadoes

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:18:54 PM3/2/16
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My point exactly!!!

Sam Wormley

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:46:35 PM3/2/16
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On 3/2/16 6:05 PM, Solving Tornadoes wrote:
> If it is heavier and the warm moist air along the surface is lighter why does it not just come falling down constantly, always.


Humid air is lighter than dry air and therefore, rises. If it rises
into cooler air layers and falls in temperature to the local dew
point, it can condense into liquid water or ice.

Evaporation from soil, oceans, plants and lakes results in a
continuous supply of Water Vapor (gaseous H2O) in the earth's
atmosphere.

Water vapour (H2O) like Oxygen (O2) like Nitrogen (N2) is an invisible
gas, so there is nothing to see.

> Water vapour (H2O molecules)

> Water vapor, water vapour or aqueous vapor, is the *gaseous phase* of
> water. It is one state of water within the hydrosphere. Water vapor
> can be produced from the *evaporation or boiling of liquid water* or
> from the *sublimation of ice* . Unlike other forms of water, water
> vapor is invisible. Under typical atmospheric conditions, water vapor
> is continuously generated by evaporation and removed by condensation.
> It is *lighter than air* and *triggers convection currents* that can
> lead to clouds.

Sam Wormley

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:50:36 PM3/2/16
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On 3/2/16 5:55 PM, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> Have you the slightest clue just how mind boggling, blaziningly, and
> absolutely ignorant that question is?


It like you saying, "I fell down, but nobody can prove gravity exists,
after all I can't see it".

Get real, James.

Solving Tornadoes

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Mar 2, 2016, 7:58:23 PM3/2/16
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On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 4:46:35 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 3/2/16 6:05 PM, Solving Tornadoes wrote:
> > If it is heavier and the warm moist air along the surface is lighter why does it not just come falling down constantly, always.
>
>
> Humid air is lighter than dry air and therefore, rises.

Actually, there's a big problem with that assertion:

http://scottishsceptic.co.uk/2011/08/26/how-to-get-off-the-ground-with-nothing-but-water-almost/#comment-39029

Sorry to burst your bubble.

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Mar 2, 2016, 8:01:15 PM3/2/16
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Solving Tornadoes <solvingt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:04:17 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
>
>> But water vapor is lighter than dry air
>
> There is an abundance of cool dry air a few hundred meters above any
> point on the planet.

Nope.


--
Jim Pennino

ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com

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Mar 2, 2016, 8:01:16 PM3/2/16
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Solving Tornadoes <solvingt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 4:16:07 PM UTC-8, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Solving Tornadoes <solvingt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 10:52:14 AM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >> James, in the scientific literature, "water vapour" is understood to
>> >> mean water (H2O) gas.
>> >
>> > I'm not saying many people don't believe that. I'm just saying that
>> > nobody has any proof.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with proof, it is a definition.
>
> My point exactly!!!

The only point you made was that you don't understand the English language.

--
Jim Pennino

Sam Wormley

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Mar 2, 2016, 8:07:22 PM3/2/16
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On 3/2/16 6:58 PM, Solving Tornadoes wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 4:46:35 PM UTC-8, Sam Wormley wrote:
>> Humid air is lighter than dry air and therefore, rises.

> Actually, there's a big problem with that assertion:


Nevertheless, the fact that humid air is lighter than dry air is
empirically so.

James McGinn

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Mar 4, 2016, 11:54:14 AM3/4/16
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On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 4:16:07 PM UTC-8, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

noTthaTguY

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Mar 4, 2016, 5:20:43 PM3/4/16
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one has to assess the volume of air that is holding these drops,
to assesss its optical qualities, but, probably,
one only needs Snell's laW of refrraction

noTthaTguY

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Mar 4, 2016, 5:22:17 PM3/4/16
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it is meteorology per se,
stuff falling from sky

James McGinn

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Mar 4, 2016, 5:29:45 PM3/4/16
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On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 2:20:43 PM UTC-8, noTthaTguY wrote:
> one has to assess the volume of air that is holding these drops,
> to assesss its optical qualities, but, probably,
> one only needs Snell's laW of refrraction

Why doesn't one explain the relevance of Snell's law.

James McGinn

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Mar 5, 2016, 2:24:24 PM3/5/16