# perpetual motion

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### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 27, 2007, 7:14:24 PM11/27/07
to
We organise a rope pulling contest.

At one end of the rope we have farmer Joe and his goat. At the other
end of the rope we have farmer Joe's horse. We shall assume Joe and
the goat to be positive forces and the horse a negative one.

As both the goat and Joe himself are at one end of the rope Joe does-
not have to compete with the horse on his own. The Goat is helping him
after all.

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 1
******************************************************

We now replicate the rope pulling contest using springs. (Physicists
love springs)

We have the Joe spring the Goat spring and the Horse spring.

2 forces in our so labeled positive direction and one in the negative.

Joe and is still assisted by the goat!

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 2
******************************************************

We now replicate the spring/rope puling contest using magnets.

The only thing we are going to change this time is that in stead of a
pulling goat magnet we will have a pushing goat magnet at the other
end of the rope.

The goat remains a positive force.

Nothing has changed! Joe is still assisted by the goat!

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 3
******************************************************

We now replicate the experiment using Joe the primary rotor magnet and
the Goat with Horse secondary Rotor magnet.

Joe moves towards goat and horse. Joe pulls, the horse pulls, the goat
pushes.

The reader puts his hands in the air, "OMFG the goat is still helping
Joe."

Regards,

gaby de wilde

:-)

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 27, 2007, 7:37:30 PM11/27/07
to

I have decided upon supplying you with an illustration to clear things
up some more.

http://img.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.jpg
joe-goat-horse.jpg (JPEG Image, 556x356 pixels 14kb)

All world problems salved. Can just go to Mars now.

Unless you don't want to?

### Uncle Al

Nov 27, 2007, 9:10:34 PM11/27/07
to
"gdew...@gmail.com" wrote:
[snip]

> We now replicate the spring/rope puling contest using magnets.

[snip]

1) Time is (locally) homogeneous.
2) Noether's theorems.
3) Mass-energy is (locally) conserved.
4) Idiot.

A perpetual motion machine *must* contain magnets, strobes, liquid
nitrogen fog, and the manual transmission from a 1979 Honda Civic.
Electrical arcs are superfluous.

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/htoo.htm

Idiot.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

### Androcles

Nov 27, 2007, 9:22:10 PM11/27/07
to

"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:474CCE1A...@hate.spam.net...

Open sewer with Schwartztord floating (River of shit) snipped.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/optpic/brokpen.jpg
The pencil is broken. Don't like empirical observations, Schwartzshit?

"BTW, you fuck-faced baboon, "(c+v) appears nowhere in the paper, nor
could it. Hey Schwartzshit, you are an ineducable idiot. Your high
school should be leveled and replaced by an abandoned bowling alley."

### Jeff☠Relf

Nov 27, 2007, 10:11:56 PM11/27/07
to
but I don't get it... it makes no sense to me, sorry.
That's the thing about manics, they never make sense.

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 27, 2007, 10:42:50 PM11/27/07
to
On Nov 28, 3:10 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:

> "gdewi...@gmail.com" wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > We now replicate the spring/rope puling contest using magnets.
>
> [snip]
>
> 1) Time is (locally) homogeneous.
> 2) Noether's theorems.
> 3) Mass-energy is (locally) conserved.
> 4) Idiot.
>
> A perpetual motion machine *must* contain magnets, strobes, liquid
> nitrogen fog, and the manual transmission from a 1979 Honda Civic.
> Electrical arcs are superfluous.
>
> http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/htoo.htm
>
> Idiot.
>
> --
> Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/

> (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Noether's theorem is not applicable as this is not a constant
symmetry.

There are 3 points not 2.

A pushing force added up with a pulling force will always have a
smaller resultant as either the push or the pull. The sum may even
approach zero while still doing useful work.

the first lesions much to quickly then got confused at the end.

But I'm such a good teacher.

I will teach you stubborn student also.

You are trying to convince me Joe is now up against both the Goat and
the Horse but that's not the case.

The Goat was pushing remember?

:-)

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 28, 2007, 10:27:39 AM11/28/07
to

How far did you get?

### Puppet_Sock

Nov 28, 2007, 1:26:46 PM11/28/07
to

Nominated for SRPOTM.
Socks

### Puppet_Sock

Nov 28, 2007, 1:36:12 PM11/28/07
to
On Nov 27, 7:14 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We organise a rope pulling contest.
[snip guff]

Sigh.

Electromagnetism is a conservative force. If you want
to get around conservation of energy you need to go
outside of this category of physics.

When I was growing up I lived on a farm. And down the
his cows to walk from one side to the other as they
wanted, without getting hit by the trucks.

Now this farmer was convinced that if only he could
find the right way to arrange the cows as they went
through the tunnel, he would be able to increase the
number of cows without doing the usual things to
produce more cows.

Many people explained, with different levels of patience
and spittle, that walking through a tunnel did not
change the number of cows. It didn't matter if they
walked through single file, in double file, one west
while the others went east, etc. etc. Walking through
a tunnel didn't change the number of cows.

In physics terms, cow number is conserved under
tunnel walking operations.

One day, one of his cows was pregnant. And it being
a hot day, she walked into the tunnel. And there she
gave birth. Eventually cow and calf emerged.

After that the guy was insufferable. He spent every
waking moment at the tunnel trying to get this
thing to happen again. And no amount of explanation,
with whatever level of patience and spittle, would
sway him the slightest bit. He was *SURE* he could
get more cows out of that tunnel. But since he
neglected to take his cows to the bull, he never
got any more calves.

See, energy is conserved under "tunnel walking
operations," that is, under electromagnetism.
If you want to get more cows you need to
take your cows to the bull. And if you want to
get more energy out you need other physics.

And stop flinging around the bull about some
horse and goat.
Socks

### Uncle Al

Nov 28, 2007, 2:20:40 PM11/28/07
to
"gdew...@gmail.com" wrote:
>
> On Nov 28, 3:10 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
> > "gdewi...@gmail.com" wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > We now replicate the spring/rope puling contest using magnets.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > 1) Time is (locally) homogeneous.
> > 2) Noether's theorems.
> > 3) Mass-energy is (locally) conserved.
> > 4) Idiot.
> >
> > A perpetual motion machine *must* contain magnets, strobes, liquid
> > nitrogen fog, and the manual transmission from a 1979 Honda Civic.
> > Electrical arcs are superfluous.
> >
> > http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/htoo.htm
> >
> > Idiot.
> >
> > --
> > Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
> > (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
>
> Noether's theorem is not applicable as this is not a constant
> symmetry.
>
> There are 3 points not 2.
[snip crap]

You are an idiot. The physical construct is irrelevant. Time is
homogeneous therefore mass-energy is locally conserved. It is
mathematically inescapable. Overturn the math, change the local flow
of time, or continue being a loud ineducable idiot.

The math is solid, local time is not subject to alteration, and we
suffer the third choice.

--
Uncle Al

### Androcles

Nov 28, 2007, 2:30:21 PM11/28/07
to

"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:474DBF88...@hate.spam.net...

Open sewer with Schwartztord floating (River of shit) snipped.

1) The math is a hollow shell.
3) See 2 above.

Heller wrote: "There was only one catch and that was Catch 22, which
specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were
real and immediate was the process of a rational mind.
"Orr (a character in the novel) was crazy and could be grounded. All he had
to do was ask, and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would
have to fly more missions.

"Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he
was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have
to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to."

In Einstein's case if you use c+v you can derive c = (c+v)/(1+v/c) from
the cuckoo malformations he blamed on Lorentz. That says you can't
use c+v.

What troll kooks like Schwartz, Poe, McCullough, Roberts, Draper, Lawrence,
Andersen, Nieminen, ewill, Olson et. al. fail to realise is the existence of
isomorphism

between Sagnac's real experiment and Einstein's hallucination experiment,
shown here:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/TwoSpeedRack.gif

Einstein sends light along the rack and back again, the rack
moving at velocity v in his pipe dream.

Sagnac sends the light around the gear wheel for real.
If you analyse one you should get the same result as the other, but
you cannot use SR to derive SR, that is petitio principii, circularity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

c+v is essential to the derivation of the cuckoo malformations, the
part where Einstein screws up is:
'we establish by definition that the "time" required by
light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires
to travel from B to A' because I SAY SO. -- Rabbi Albert Einstein

Here are some mathematical proofs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof

Not included are
Proof by "because I say so",
Proof by "everybody knows",
Proof by "it is written",
the three most popular forms used in sci.physics.relativity.

You'll often see this pathetic mob muttering "Lorentz Transformations"
but they haven't a clue how they are derived and faithfully follow their
indoctrination like lemmings.

Prediction:
The troll kooks will ignore it, they are too stooopid to understand a
proof.

RULES OF REASONING IN PHILOSOPHY.

RULE I.
We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true
and sufficient to explain their appearances.

To this purpose the philosophers say that Nature does nothing in vain,
and more is in vain when less will serve; for Nature is pleased with
simplicity,
and affects not the pomp of superfluous causes.

-- Sir Isaac Newton

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 28, 2007, 3:06:49 PM11/28/07
to
On Nov 28, 7:36 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Electromagnetism is a conservative force.
>[snip]

You don't know anything about electricity or magnetism.

All you have is a hand full of educated guesses non of which are you
own.

I do-not doubt their education.

I doubt their accuracy when reproduced as absolutes.

By posting the above I never asked you to prejudge my writings.

Then you may actually reply to it's content.

You are never going to produce a kosher response to anything if you
don't bother to read the actual thing. By this means your review will
describe you and only you and nothing else but you.

Focus your attention for a moment here cowboy. The lesion was reduced
to sesame street level as I'm well aware of your disabilities. Now I
did not make things to complicated for you did I?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The pushing goat will be subtracted from the pulling horse.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Who cares what distance it happens over?

It is a subtraction over _ALL_ of the distance.

http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.pdf
joe-goat-horse.pdf (application/pdf Object)

### Jeff☠Relf

Nov 28, 2007, 3:30:53 PM11/28/07
to
In order to buy into your story, Gaby, ( if there was a story ),
I'd have to believe that a magnet works like a rope or a spring,
it doesn't.

### G=EMC^2 Glazier

Nov 28, 2007, 4:44:14 PM11/28/07
to
Jeff Right you are. Rope or string don't relate to virtual photons
Bert

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 28, 2007, 5:26:52 PM11/28/07
to
On Nov 28, 10:44 pm, herbertglaz...@webtv.net (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
> Jeff Right you are. Rope or string don't relate to virtual photons
> Bert

Wikipedia is aways a good resource for everything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
"Many in the scientific community view them as an ad hoc abstraction
that is required because our current view of reality as described by
quantum mechanics is not complete. So they sat pretending to weave,
and continued to work at the empty loom till late into the night.
Night after night they went home with their money and their bags full
of the finest silk and gold thread. Day after day they pretended to
work.

Now the Emperor was eager to know how much of the cloth was finished.
It is thought by this segment of physicists that virtual particles
will no longer be required when a more complete view of quantum
mechanics is integrated with general relativity and gravity in
general."

### Jeff☠Relf

Nov 28, 2007, 9:39:03 PM11/28/07
to
Thanks to our ignorance, the quantum world is semi-random;
i.e. unlike the General Relativity model, it's not fully causal.
Gravity, I suspect, is primordial momentum ( and it dissipates ).

Were we not so ignorant, magnetic fields could be modeled like G.R.

As the Unruh effect explains, the more an observer is accelerated,
more the sea of virtual particles becomes real ( i.e. a heat bath ).

The Casimir effect, tiny though it is,
is an example of what the sea of virtual particles can do.
Tiny, semi-random effects make poor power-supplies.

### G=EMC^2 Glazier

Nov 29, 2007, 3:34:29 AM11/29/07
to
Jeff Two large steel ships parked side by side very close to each other
create the casimir effect. That is why a captains chair is very useful
Bert

### Puppet_Sock

Nov 29, 2007, 10:53:51 AM11/29/07
to
On Nov 28, 3:06 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 7:36 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Electromagnetism is a conservative force.
> >[snip]
>
> You don't know anything about electricity or magnetism.

Um. Yeah. Sure. It's *me* who does not know anything.

Look, gd my old shoe-leather. If you want anybody to think
you are anything other than a doorknob, you need to have
the begining of understanding here. E&M is conservative.
No perpetual motion. So if you want perpetual motion you
need other physics. You can't fool anybody with that goat.

So if you think that E&M is *not* conservative (i.e., I don't
know anything) then you need to show where the usual
description of E&M disagrees with observation. And your
dingus little drawings of a goat and a horse are not gonna
do it.

A drawing is not evidence of anything.

You need an actual chunk of physical test equipment,
and an actual calculation of how it would go according
to the usual description, and a measurement that is
different.

Until then, you are simply masturbating. With a goat.
Socks

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 29, 2007, 3:52:00 PM11/29/07
to
On Nov 29, 4:53 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]

Here is the topic boy.

http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.pdf

You may feel free to address the topic.

I don't care for your doorknob fetish.

You might be dumb but I didn't say you didn't know anything. I said
you may stop pretending you know everything. Not knowing everything
is something different from not knowing anything. It's in the "EVERY"
and the "ANY" .

So when I tell you you don't know everything you should not try to
creatively twist that into not know anything. Off-topic word twisting
for example seems to be a good example of something you know

You are trying to say that changing the Goat from a pulling into a
pushing force changes everything.

Well this is nonsense. Explain your nonsense sock person.

### Puppet_Sock

Nov 29, 2007, 4:54:52 PM11/29/07
to
On Nov 29, 3:52 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 29, 4:53 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> Here is the topic boy.
>
> http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.pdf
>
> You may feel free to address the topic.

And I have. As I've said, a drawing is not evidence of anything.

If you think this follows standard E&M and still produces
excess energy, I don't need to do anything to know you
are wrong. It is a very general theorm that standard E&M
conserves energy.

> You might be dumb but I didn't say you didn't know anything.

You said I didn't know anything about electricity or magnetism.
The post is still on Google. You can stop your lies any time.

On Nov 28, 3:06 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Nov 28, 7:36 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Electromagnetism is a conservative force.
> >[snip]
> You don't know anything about electricity or magnetism.

> I said

> you may stop pretending you know everything. Not knowing everything
> is something different from not knowing anything. It's in the "EVERY"
> and the "ANY" .

I don't need to know everything to know you can't build
a perpetual motion machine in E&M. I did acceptably
well on that homework assignment. Energy is exactly
conserved.

> So when I tell you you don't know everything you should not try to
> creatively twist that into not know anything. Off-topic word twisting
> for example seems to be a good example of something you know

Um. So mentioning that E&M is conservative is off topic?

Did they drop you on your head when you were very small?

>
> You are trying to say that changing the Goat from a pulling into a
> pushing force changes everything.
>
> Well this is nonsense. Explain your nonsense sock person.

Since I've said exactly the opposite of that, it's fairly
ridiculous of you to demand I explain it. Putting the
goat at the other end changes nothing. The system
you describe (very inadequately) is either following
E&M, and so conservative, or not following E&M, and
so you have not yet explained how it works.

So, if you want to explain how your goat got pregnant...

This is the point I've made about four times now. If you
want to build a perpetual motion machine, you have to
go beyond E&M, as E&M is a conservative force.
Socks

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 29, 2007, 7:08:41 PM11/29/07
to
On Nov 29, 10:54 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.pdf

> Putting the goat at the other end changes nothing.
>

That's all I wanted to hear.

Looking at the illustration again.

Joe and the goat repel another.

But Joe does not bounce backwards as a result.

Joe and the horse attract another.

But Joe does not bounce forwards as a result.

Is the acceleration with the horse limited in any way by the presence
of the goat?

It seems to me the horse is attracted just as much with or without the
goat present.

Sure Joe is not pulled forwards by the horse like he would be without
the goat.

He isn't pulled backwards either like he would be without the goat.

You understand?

If the rules say there has to be something wrong with this, then where
is it Mr Sock?

### Autymn D. C.

Nov 29, 2007, 9:08:16 PM11/29/07
to
On Nov 29, 1:54 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If you think this follows standard E&M and still produces
> excess energy, I don't need to do anything to know you
> are wrong. It is a very general theorm that standard E&M
> conserves energy.

> I don't need to know everything to know you can't build

> a perpetual motion machine in E&M. I did acceptably
> well on that homework assignment. Energy is exactly
> conserved.

> Um. So mentioning that E&M is conservative is off topic?

> This is the point I've made about four times now. If you

> want to build a perpetual motion machine, you have to
> go beyond E&M, as E&M is a conservative force.

### gdew...@gmail.com

Nov 29, 2007, 11:26:59 PM11/29/07
to
On Nov 30, 3:08 am, "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> [snip]

Hello Autymn. I have receaved your email.

Here is the pdf file you requested.

http://magnetmotor.go-here.nl/joe-goat-horse.pdf

We have established that putting the goat at the other end changes
nothing.

Do you argree with this?

### Benj

Nov 30, 2007, 1:50:24 AM11/30/07
to
On Nov 29, 9:08 pm, "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Nov 29, 1:54 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't need to know everything to know you can't build
> > a perpetual motion machine in E&M. I did acceptably
> > well on that homework assignment. Energy is exactly
> > conserved.
> > Um. So mentioning that E&M is conservative is off topic?
> > This is the point I've made about four times now. If you
> > want to build a perpetual motion machine, you have to
> > go beyond E&M, as E&M is a conservative force.
>
> Bzzt.

You tell him, Autymn Womyn!

Puppet_Sock you are a moron. What in hell does E&M being
"conservative" have to do with perpetual motion? I can easily build a
"perpetual motion" machine in E&M! I get a diode and a tuned circuit
and with no visible power source, I construct a device that makes a
noise "in perpetuity"! I know what you'll say. Well, you only built a
crystal radio! That isn't a real "perpetual motion" E&M machine. If
the radio station stops, then your device stops. It is really just
converting one energy form to another. OK. true. So I retune my
station go off the air? THEN you tell me, "well that's not REAL
"peretual motion" because you really are only making this little noise
and not doing great work with it." And then I bring out the coup de
grace, which is my revelation of an undiscovered band of cosmic energy
of great strength which can be tapped to deliver vast amounts of
"free" electrical energy to power homes and automobiles from small
receivers. And then you argue that "yes, you made a truly useful E&M
power source but it's not "perpetual motion" because energy
conservation isn't violated!"

And then I say, yes, dumb-dumb, THAT is EXACTLY my POINT!

### gdew...@gmail.com

Dec 2, 2007, 2:35:47 AM12/2/07
to

ty

### gdew...@gmail.com

Dec 2, 2007, 5:49:24 PM12/2/07
to

### gdew...@gmail.com

Dec 3, 2007, 9:51:40 AM12/3/07
to
On Nov 28, 8:20 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
> You are an idiot. The physical construct is irrelevant. Time is
> homogeneous therefore mass-energy is locally conserved. It is
> mathematically inescapable. Overturn the math, change the local flow
> of time, or continue being a loud ineducable idiot.

bla bla bla??

### gdew...@gmail.com

Dec 23, 2007, 11:42:58 PM12/23/07
to
We organise a rope pulling contest.

At one end of the rope we have farmer Joe and his goat. At the other
end of the rope we have farmer Joe's horse. We shall assume Joe and
the goat to be positive forces and the horse a negative one.

As both the goat and Joe himself are at one end of the rope Joe does-
not have to compete with the horse on his own. The Goat is helping him
after all.

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 1
******************************************************

We now replicate the rope pulling contest using springs. (Physicists
love springs)

We have the Joe spring the Goat spring and the Horse spring.

2 forces in our so labeled positive direction and one in the negative.

Joe and is still assisted by the goat!

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 2
******************************************************

We now replicate the spring/rope puling contest using magnets.

The only thing we are going to change this time is that in stead of a
pulling goat magnet we will have a pushing goat magnet at the other
end of the rope.

The goat remains a positive force.

Nothing has changed! Joe is still assisted by the goat!

******************************************************
congratulations you have now agreed with part 3
******************************************************

We now replicate the experiment using Joe the primary rotor magnet and
the Goat with Horse secondary Rotor magnet.

Joe moves towards goat and horse. Joe pulls, the horse pulls, the goat
pushes.

The reader puts his hands in the air, "OMFG the goat is still helping
Joe."

Regards,

gaby de wilde

:-)

### gdew...@gmail.com

Jan 2, 2008, 10:52:11 AM1/2/08
to
On Nov 29 2007, 4:53 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 3:06 pm, "gdewi...@gmail.com" <gdewi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 28, 7:36 pm, Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Electromagnetism is a conservative force.
> > >[snip]
>
> > You don't know anything about electricity or magnetism.
>
> Um. Yeah. Sure. It's *me* who does not know anything.
> [snip]

Finally we agree.