Why is push gravity concept considered not viable by mainstream science?

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Blaze Labs

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May 24, 2006, 3:04:31 PM5/24/06
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Hello guys,

I would like to know the main reasons why the push gravity concept is
not considered as a viable concept by mainstream science. I know it
gave rise to numerous published works, amongst which we have those of
Lorentz, H.Poincare, F.Brush, Secchi, Leray, V.Thomson, Schramm, Tait,
Isenkrahe, Preston, Jarolimek, Waachy, Rynsanek, Darwin, Majorana... so
it cannot be all wrong.

Please note, I am NOT asking about Le Sage ultramundane particles
theory (which also falls under the push gravity category), which I can
easiely discredit myself. I'm mostly interested in the concept of
electromagnetic radiation pressure of high frequency radiation acting
as the gravitational mechanism, and its shadowing creating the inverse
square law, low pressure areas.

Thanks,
S.Borg.

Uncle Al

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May 24, 2006, 9:21:31 PM5/24/06
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Electromagnetism propagates as spin-1 vector bosons. If gravitation
is quantized it propagates as spin-2 tensor bosons. The selection
rules for allowed transitions are different. EM and gravitation do
not unify - not even if you are wearing Kaluza-Klein jeans. EM is
trivially shielded with alternating layers of grounded conductor
(Faraday cage) and lossy inductor (e.g., ferrite) and eventually by
electron scattering (nuclear shielding for beta-rays). Gravitation
cannot be shielded.

The source of monopole radiation is a changing monopole moment for a
charge q or for a mass m. Since charge and mass are conserved, there
can be neither monopole electromagnetic radiation nor monopole
gravitational radiation.

The source of dipole radiation is a changing dipole moment.
(Punctiliously, you need a second time derivative of the dipole
moment.) For a pair of charges

d = qr + q'r'

and there's nothing special about the derivatives. For a pair of
masses, the gravitational dipole moment is

d = mr + m'r'

and its time derivative is

mv + m'v' = p + p'

By conservation of momentum the second time derivative of the
gravitational dipole moment is zero, and you can go to a center of
momentum frame and set the first derivative to zero as well. There
is no gravitational "electric dipole" radiation.

Consider the analog of "magnetic dipole" radiation. The gravitational
equivalent of the magnetic dipole moment for a pair of charges is

M = mv x r + m'v' x r'
("x" is the cross product, "mv" is the "mass current")

But M is the total angular momentum, which is also conserved. There
is no gravitational "magnetic dipole" radiation.

The next moment up is quadrupole, with no relevant conservation laws,
so gravitational quadrupole radiation is permitted.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz3.pdf

Timo A. Nieminen

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May 25, 2006, 2:49:00 PM5/25/06
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Isn't this exactly what Brush wrote about? A search to see who cite
Brush's paper might be revealing. Perhaps it's just the observation that,
apart from rather speculative push-gravity effects, we don't seem to be
immersed in a bath of lots and lots of ultra-gamma rays?

Modern experiments on the falling of single cold atoms might be a
conclusive disproof, since radiation pressure due to ultra-high frequency
radiation tends to be in discrete jumps; E=hf and all that. This isn't
observed.

I see you list Majorana, although perhaps his suggestion should be called
"anti-push" (surely better than "suck"!) gravity.

My impression is that while push gravity, at least in certain limits, give
plausible results, doesn't offer any improvement over other theories of
gravitation, while introducing severe difficulties related to the exchange
of energy between the gravitational particle flux and conventional matter.

A relativistic treatment of gravitational particles (relevant if photons)
doesn't seem to improve matters such as galactic rotations curves (thanks
Rob for this).

--
Timo Nieminen - Home page: http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/people/nieminen/
E-prints: http://eprint.uq.edu.au/view/person/Nieminen,_Timo_A..html
Shrine to Spirits: http://www.users.bigpond.com/timo_nieminen/spirits.html

carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu

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May 25, 2006, 4:00:38 PM5/25/06
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Blaze Labs <sav...@blazelabs.com> wrote:
> Hello guys,

> I would like to know the main reasons why the push gravity concept is
> not considered as a viable concept by mainstream science.

There are a few generic objections, along with particular problems with
particular models. The main generic objections I know of are

1. Drag: As Feynman pointed out in the Feynman Lectures, anything
that's capable of "pushing" will also create drag on a moving object.
There are very strong observational limits on such drag, in the
Solar System and in binary pulsar systems.

2. Aberration: Suppose "pushing" particles move at a speed v, and
look at the effect on the Solar System. For a planet at distance d
from the Sun, the "push" will not be toward the instantaneous
position of the Sun, but towards its position at a time d/v in the
past. This is a drastic effect -- if v is the speed of light, the
Solar System would be drastically unstable over a thousand-year
time scale.

(The effect of aberration is to increase the velocity of a planet,
and you might hope that drag would cancel it. But it's easy to
check that such cancellation can occur at, at most, one radial
distance from the Sun.)

3. Principle of equivalence: It is observed that gravity acts not
only on mass, but on all forms of energy. A "push gravity" theory
would have to come with an explanation of how the particles that do
the pushing manage to push against, for example, electrostatic binding
energy and the kinetic energy of electrons in an atom, and why that
"push" exactly matches the "push" against ordinary matter.

In particular, we observe that gravitational binding energy itself
gravitates. This seems to require self-interaction among the
pushing particles. On the other hand, the accuracy of the inverse
square law over long distances requires that the self-interaction
be very small -- you certainly need a mean free path larger than
the size of the Solar System if you don't want to mess up Pluto's
orbit.

4. Gravitational screening: There are very strong limits on the kind
of "gravitational screening" one would expect from a "push gravity"
model -- see, for example, Unnikrishnan et al., Phys. Rev. D 63 (2001)
062002.

[...]


> Please note, I am NOT asking about Le Sage ultramundane particles
> theory (which also falls under the push gravity category), which I can
> easiely discredit myself. I'm mostly interested in the concept of
> electromagnetic radiation pressure of high frequency radiation acting
> as the gravitational mechanism, and its shadowing creating the inverse
> square law, low pressure areas.

You immediately run into trouble with the principle of equivalence,
for one thing. Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects); but
gravity bends light. Nor do electromagnetic waves interact with
internal energy, not with neutrinos; but these *are* affected by
gravity. You also run into grave problems with aberration (see above),
and very probably with drag. You would *further* have to explain why
this high frequency radiation is not absorbed by the Earth enough to
lead to gravitational screening of the type ruled out by experiment.

Note that "high frequency [electromagnetic] radiation" is gamma radiation.
There are experimental measurements of very high energy gamma rays, and
a fair amount is known about their spectrum. I suspect you would have
a very hard time reconciling your model with these observations.

Steve Carlip

Richard Saam

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May 26, 2006, 5:51:49 PM5/26/06
to
carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:

snip

>
> Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
> electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects);

snip

> Steve Carlip
>

Steve

Could you please provide a reference to:

"truly tiny quantum effects"

of

"interacting Electromagnetic waves"

Richard

Ray Tomes

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May 30, 2006, 6:01:31 PM5/30/06
to
Timo A. Nieminen wrote:
> ... Perhaps it's just the observation that,
> apart from rather speculative push-gravity effects, we don't seem to be
> immersed in a bath of lots and lots of ultra-gamma rays?

OTOH, de Broglie showed that treating a particle as a standing wave
would predict many effects which were subsequently found to be just so.
If a particle is a standing wave, then (as Wheeler and Feynman got
close to saying) it is a combination of both an in and out wave at
the Compton frequency of the particle. This is indeed ultra-gamma
rays, but it is not something that "happens to the particle" but
rather "what the particle is".

I highly recommend the web site of Gabriel LaFreniere at
http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm
which has many animated GIFs showing how standing waves look and
produce all the effects of de Broglie, including waves relating to
particles in motion and much more.

> My impression is that while push gravity, at least in certain limits, give
> plausible results, doesn't offer any improvement over other theories of
> gravitation, while introducing severe difficulties related to the exchange
> of energy between the gravitational particle flux and conventional matter.

If the particle as a standing wave idea is adopted, then LeSage gravity
does follow still.

carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> 1. Drag: As Feynman pointed out in the Feynman Lectures, anything
> that's capable of "pushing" will also create drag on a moving object.
> There are very strong observational limits on such drag, in the
> Solar System and in binary pulsar systems.

> 2. Aberration: Suppose "pushing" particles move at a speed v, and
> look at the effect on the Solar System. For a planet at distance d
> from the Sun, the "push" will not be toward the instantaneous
> position of the Sun, but towards its position at a time d/v in the
> past. This is a drastic effect -- if v is the speed of light, the
> Solar System would be drastically unstable over a thousand-year
> time scale.

When the in and out waves are considered, it seems to me that both the
drag and aberration problems are solved. That is because there is an
almost exactly equal and opposite effect from each of the two parts
of the wave.

I say almost equal and opposite because there does have to be a
difference of 1 part in 10^40 between the two fluxes in order to
explain why gravity is that must weaker than other forces.
That difference also leads to a correct prediction of the
cosmological redshift as being a side effect of the imbalance.

These relationships are deeply satisfying.

> 3. Principle of equivalence: It is observed that gravity acts not
> only on mass, but on all forms of energy. A "push gravity" theory
> would have to come with an explanation of how the particles that do
> the pushing manage to push against, for example, electrostatic binding
> energy and the kinetic energy of electrons in an atom, and why that
> "push" exactly matches the "push" against ordinary matter.

If particles are a type of e/m standing wave then this would of
course be so.

> 4. Gravitational screening: There are very strong limits on the kind
> of "gravitational screening" one would expect from a "push gravity"
> model -- see, for example, Unnikrishnan et al., Phys. Rev. D 63 (2001)
> 062002.

There are of course observations of effects of shadows from eclipses
on pendulums (Maurice Allais) and on gravitational acceleration
(Wang and Wang(?)) which do show that there is screening, although
it might better be described as a mixture of screening and scattering.

Ray Tomes
http://ray.tomes.biz/
http://www.cyclesresearchinstitute.org/

Sid Lanier

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May 30, 2006, 6:02:47 PM5/30/06
to
<carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
news:e54rdf$qcb$1...@skeeter.ucdavis.edu...

> Blaze Labs <sav...@blazelabs.com> wrote:
>> Hello guys,
>
>> I would like to know the main reasons why the push gravity concept is
>> not considered as a viable concept by mainstream science.
>
> There are a few generic objections, along with particular problems with
> particular models. The main generic objections I know of are
>
> 1. Drag: As Feynman pointed out in the Feynman Lectures, anything
> that's capable of "pushing" will also create drag on a moving object.
> There are very strong observational limits on such drag, in the
> Solar System and in binary pulsar systems.

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you are referring to the paragraph
in Vol. I, pages 7-9 to 7-10, in which Feynman commented on the theory
of a mechanism of gravitation. I was thinking that if these
"push-particles" are traveling at the speed of light, c, something like
the following might hold. Let F be the flux of these particles thoughout
space (i.e., the number of particles passing through unit area in unit
time.) Also, assume the flux is isotropic in direction. Consider a thin
sheet of matter traveling at speed u in the +X direction (traveling
broadside so you see the full area when looking along X.) To simplify,
consider only those particles going either in the +X or -X direction.
(Nothing is lost, in principle, by doing this, as you could integrate
over velocity components for other directions.) When the object is at
rest, it sees the same particle flux, F,coming from both the front side
and the hind side. But in motion, the flux it meets is increased to
F(c+u)/c and the flux from behind is decreased to F(c-u)/c. If Feynman's
anology with running in the rain applies, the thing would certainly
absorb more particles from the front than from the back per unit time,
and would feel a resistance to the motion. (With raindrops, if they hit,
they are absorbed.) However, the sheet of matter is composed of
individual absorber particles, say "atoms". Looking at a single atom,
the number of encounters per second it has with a push-particle is
proportional to the particle flux in the vicinity of the atom. The
number absorbed per second by that atom is equal to the number of
encounters per second times the probability, p, of absorption per
encounter.So, for push-particles coming from the front, an atom in the
sheet of material would absorb

N(1) = ApF(c+u)/c particles per second (1)

where A is the proportionality constant mentioned above for encounters,
and p is the probability of absorption per encounter.

This same atom would absorb from behind,

N(2) = ApF(c-u)/c particles per second. (2)

If the probability were the same in each case, the atom would certainly
absorb more per second from the front than from behind. However, the
atom (or whatever absorbing "particle") may be assumed to have an
effective absorbing diameter,d. A particle can be absorbed by it only
when it is traversing this distance through, or close by, the atom. It
takes a time t(1) = d/(c+u) for the particles meeting the atom to
traverse its sphere of influence. And for those coming from the rear, it
takes a time t(2) = d/(c-u) for them to get away from its influence. The
probability of absorption per encounter should also be proportional to
the time lapse of the encounter. (if it stays in the vicinity of the
atom longer, it should have a higher probability of absorption.)
Therefore, the probability of absorption in each case would be p(1) =
Bd/(c+u) for particles meeting it, and p(2) = Bd/(c-u) for particles
coming from behind, where B is the proportionality constant.

Replacing the probability p in equations (1) and (2) above with these
probabilities as a function of the time lapse of encounter, gives:

the number absorbed from the front per second by a given atom as
N(1) = A[Bd/(c+u)]F[(c+u)/c] = (ABdF)/c

and the number absorbed from behind per second by the same atom
as:
N(2) = A[Bd/(c-u)]F[(c-u)/c] = (ABdF)/c

The result is the same, which shows that a moving object will absorb the
same number per second of push-particles from the front as from the
back. Therefore the object will feel no net force due to motion in this
isotropic flux of particles. (If one worries about the energy build-up,
we may assume that the particles, once absorbed, are very quickly
re-scattered isotropically.)

Whether I'm right or not,
Have one on me!

carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu

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May 30, 2006, 6:02:52 PM5/30/06
to
Richard Saam <rds...@att.net> wrote:
> carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:

> snip

>> Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
>> electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects);

> snip

> Could you please provide a reference to:

> "truly tiny quantum effects"
> of
> "interacting Electromagnetic waves"

One place to look is www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/opal/gammagamma/gg-tutorial.html.
For observations involving real (not virtual) photons, see, for example,
Burke et al., Phys. Rev. Lett. 79 (1997) 1626 and Bamber et al., Phys.
Rev. D 60 (1999) 092004. There is even a proposal to build a photon-
photon linear collider -- see, for example, www.desy.de/~telnov/ggtesla/
and diablo.phys.northwestern.edu/~mvelasco/gg-papers.html.

For a description of the process in QED, you can look at most quantum
field theory textbooks, under "photon-photon scattering." For example,
see section 7-3-1 of Itzykson and Zuber.

Steve Carlip

Jonathan Thornburg -- remove -animal to reply

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May 30, 2006, 6:03:06 PM5/30/06
to
Steve Carlip pointed out that

> Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
> electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects);

Richard Saam <rds...@att.net> asked for references for this.

The usual phrase for this is "photon-photon scattering". A brief
bout of googling this phrase found (among others) the following pages
which look quite informative:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/feb99/919892082.Ph.r.html
http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/opal/gammagamma/gg-tutorial.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0512033
The last of these is an M.Sc thesis on the possible observability of this.

Cheng and Wu,
Phys Rev D 1, 3414 (12 June 1970),
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v1/i12/p3414_1
give a detailed calculation of photon-photon scattering cross sections.

Chiao,
http://www.physics.berkeley.edu/research/chiao/EOY00/chiao6.pdf
gives an experimental observation, abeit in a dilute gas rather than
in a vacuum (which would be a "purer" situation).

ciao,

--
-- "Jonathan Thornburg -- remove -animal to reply" <jth...@aei.mpg-zebra.de>
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
Golm, Germany, "Old Europe" http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."
-- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam

Y Porat

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Aug 15, 2018, 1:25:30 AM8/15/18
to
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 4:36:58 AM UTC+3, Y Porat wrote:
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:43:41 PM UTC+3, Gregor Scholten wrote:
> > Y Porat wrote:
> >
> > > so we see that
> > > for gravity we need 2 **active physical entities*
> >
> > Which entities do you mean?
> >
> >
> > > and mass becomes an ** active physical entity
> > > NOT A PASSIVE PHYSICAL ENTITY ANY MORE ??!!
> > > ie
> > > producing forces !....
> >
> > Already Newton considered mass as producing gravitational forces, so in
> > that sense, mass has always been considered as "active".
> >
> >
> > > so how'suddenly ' active ??!! by what ??
> > > while 'we....'see' in mass (until now)
> > > just a passive physical entity ??!!
> >
> > Following you definition of "active", we have never seen a passive
> > entity in mass.
> -
> ==================
> if so
> just give us an **explanation**:
>
> HOW CAM A MASS*-( only by itself!!) - ** ACT **
>
> in a distant location from itself ???
> ===
> TIA
> Y.P
> ====================================
>
> [[Mod. note -- In classical physics this is precisely why we introduce
> the concept of /field/, e.g., the (Newtonian) gravitational field.
>
> In general relativity spacetime itself is the medium in which the
> gravitational interaction propagates.
> -- jt]]
==================
thank you scholten
now
did you ever hear about the


ALL **PUSH THEORY ??
iow
at the 'end of the day ' it is always
push not pull !!
--
it took me just BTW 80 YEARS !!...thaT IS my age ..
to understand for instance
how is our breathing is done ??!!:

ONLY PUSH !! NOT never PULL !!!!!!..
so
many times we have to invest
much more thoroughly - more intensively !!

and is you kike
see more :

http://sites.google.com/site/theyporatmodel/an-abstract
please note
it is only the abstract** there !!
a remark to the moderator
let me once in my life

to get yoUr permission to your important ng
please note the name of your ng *RESEARCH !!

research can be many times
**trial and **error!!!
you may be surprised how many times
''trial and error'' worked !!!!!
TIA
Y.Porat
======================

[[Mod. note -- In a 2006 article <e54rdf$qcb$1...@skeeter.ucdavis.edu>
(which I have added to the References: header of this article)
Steve Carlip explained some generic problems with "push gravity":
-- jt]]

Gregor Scholten

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Aug 18, 2018, 7:35:11 AM8/18/18
to
Y Porat wrote:

> now
> did you ever hear about the
>
>
> ALL **PUSH THEORY ??
> iow
> at the 'end of the day ' it is always
> push not pull !!
> --
> it took me just BTW 80 YEARS !!...thaT IS my age ..
> to understand for instance
> how is our breathing is done ??!!:
>
> ONLY PUSH !! NOT never PULL !!!!!!..

What's the difference? According to Newtonian equation of motion

F = m a

a force F makes a body undergo an acceleration a. One could say the
force F "pulls" the body as well as the force "pushes" the body - there
isn't any difference except in wording.

In GR, a free-falling body is force-free, i.e. F = 0, it just follows
its natural geodesic path in spacetime, so it is neither pulled nor
pushed.

When we say that gravity is attractive or that gravity pulls a body, we
just describe the effect that two bodies that interact gravitationally
tend to approach each other. In Newtonian theory, this means that the
direction of the gravitational force on the one body points to the
position of the other body, in GR, it means that the bodies influence
the curvature of spacetime in that way that the geodesic lines which the
bodies follow are bend towards each other.

Lawrence Crowell

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Aug 19, 2018, 12:52:15 AM8/19/18
to
I have found this question to be rather odd. I have not thought of
gravitation as either push or pull. In general relativity there is
no such thing as a force. There is only a force if there is some
material response that resists the geodesic deviated paths of
particles.

If one thinks of a Gaussian surface around a source of gravity that
is a black cloak the motion of particles is then due to mass-energy
inside. This has some appearance of a pull. However, once we pull
away the cloak we if we find a planet or star there is a force due
to material properties or pressure that is outwards. This would be
maybe a push.

A star is a nuclear fusion system and gravitation provides the
pressure in the core. Our attempts to get fusion in the lab involve
a pressure from the outside. The difficulties faced are Rayleigh-Taylor
instabilities. We then have a sense of the difference between the
maintenance of fusion by gravitation that is from the interior and
fusion in the lab that is induced by pressure from the outside.

Y Porat

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Aug 19, 2018, 3:46:57 AM8/19/18
to
On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 2:35:11 PM UTC+3, Gregor Scholten wrote:
> Y Porat wrote:
>
> > now
> > did you ever hear about the
> >
> >
> > ALL **PUSH THEORY ??
> > iow
> > at the 'end of the day ' it is always
> > push not pull !!
> > --
> > it took me just BTW 80 YEARS !!...thaT IS my age ..
> > to understand for instance
> > how is our breathing is done ??!!:
> >
> > ONLY PUSH !! NOT never PULL !!!!!!..
>
> What's the difference? According to Newtonian equation of motion
>
> F = m a
>
> a force F makes a body undergo an acceleration a. One could say the
> force F "pulls" the body as well as the force "pushes" the body - there
===========================
sorry Sir
pullis one thing
and push is completely different thing !!
----
---

> isn't any difference except in wording.

=========
not only words at all !!

if i pull you -you come closer to me
if i push you
you getting further from me !
it is the difference between
through
and not through !!
---------------------

> cetime, so it is neither pulled nor
> pushed.
>
> When we say that gravity is attractive or that gravity pulls a body, we
> just describe the effect that two bodies that interact gravitationally
> tend to approach each other. In Newtonian theory, this means that the
> direction of the gravitational force on the one body points to the
> position of the other body, in GR, it means that the bodies influence
> the curvature of spacetime in that way that the geodesic lines which the
> bodies follow are bend towards each other.

================
geodetic lines are lines are ** just lines** on our actual
**globus model**
in empty space it is not proven obligatory
empty space
is not our earth !!!!!
iow
geodetic'' in Einstein theory
are just words
just guesses
if you will say
it is** stemming from our mass**
it will be much more reasonable
===
TIA
Y.P
=============



Gregor Scholten

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Aug 19, 2018, 6:04:45 AM8/19/18
to
Y Porat wrote:

>>> now
>>> did you ever hear about the
>>>
>>>
>>> ALL **PUSH THEORY ??
>>> iow
>>> at the 'end of the day ' it is always
>>> push not pull !!
>>> --
>>> it took me just BTW 80 YEARS !!...thaT IS my age ..
>>> to understand for instance
>>> how is our breathing is done ??!!:
>>>
>>> ONLY PUSH !! NOT never PULL !!!!!!..
>>
>> What's the difference? According to Newtonian equation of motion
>>
>> F = m a
>>
>> a force F makes a body undergo an acceleration a. One could say the
>> force F "pulls" the body as well as the force "pushes" the body - there
> ===========================
> sorry Sir
> pullis one thing
> and push is completely different thing !!

As I already pointed out, it is no such completely different thing.


>> isn't any difference except in wording.
>
> =========
> not only words at all !!
>
> if i pull you -you come closer to me
> if i push you
> you getting further from me !

More in detail: when saying that you "pull" me, it means that

- I come closer to you (due to a force, due to curvature of spacetime or
due something else)

AND

- whatever makes me come closer to you is *caused by you*

In turn, when saying that you "push" me, it means that

- I get further from you (due to a force, due to curvature of spacetime
or due something else)

AND

- whatever makes me go further from you is *caused by you*

So, if we transfer this to gravity, we can either imagine that two
bodies that come closer due to a gravitational effect do so because the
gravitational effect is caused by the two bodies itself - then we can
say that the two bodies "pull" each other - or by something different
that is around the two bodies, then we can say that something "pushes"
the bodies to come closer.

So, obviously, what you imagine is that the gravitational action that
makes two bodies come closer is not caused by the bodies itself (what
you would denote as "the bodies pull each other"), but by something
around the bodies. E.g. by empty space or by other (maybe insivisible?)
bodies.

So, the next question is: what is the advantage of such an understanding
of gravity? Why should we prefer this understanding of gravity against
the conventional understanding that the gravitational action that makes
bodies come closer is caused by the bodies itself?


>> cetime, so it is neither pulled nor
>> pushed.
>>
>> When we say that gravity is attractive or that gravity pulls a body, we
>> just describe the effect that two bodies that interact gravitationally
>> tend to approach each other. In Newtonian theory, this means that the
>> direction of the gravitational force on the one body points to the
>> position of the other body, in GR, it means that the bodies influence
>> the curvature of spacetime in that way that the geodesic lines which the
>> bodies follow are bend towards each other.
>
> ================
> geodetic lines are lines are ** just lines** on our actual
> **globus model**
> in empty space it is not proven obligatory
> empty space
> is not our earth !!!!!

Historically, geodesics were first considered as lines on the Earth's
surface, i.e. in a two-dimensional space. However, geodesics can easiely
be generalized to spaces with more dimensions, including
three-dimensional space and four-dimensional spacetime.


> iow
> geodetic'' in Einstein theory
> are just words
> just guesses

Any concepts in physical theories are always just words and just
guesses. This is the way the scientific method works: we first make
observations, then we guess how the observations can be described (i.e.
we formulate theories that use words), and then we compare the
consequences of our guess to nature.

This applies for GR as well as for any other theory.


> if you will say
> it is** stemming from our mass**
> it will be much more reasonable

No, surely not. If you formulate a theory with particles that stem from
masses, i.e. you guess that such particles make a proper description of
nature, then these particles and their property that they stem from
masses are also just words and just guesses.


LouDeeCruz

unread,
Feb 5, 2021, 8:55:29 AMFeb 5
to
On Thursday, 25 May 2006 at 21:00:38 UTC+1, carlip...@physics.ucdavis.edu wrote:
> Blaze Labs <sav...@blazelabs.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello guys,
> > I would like to know the main reasons why the push gravity concept is
> > not considered as a viable concept by mainstream science.
>
> There are a few generic objections, along with particular problems with
> particular models. The main generic objections I know of are
> 1. Drag: As Feynman pointed out in the Feynman Lectures, anything
> that's capable of "pushing" will also create drag on a moving object.
> There are very strong observational limits on such drag, in the
> Solar System and in binary pulsar systems.

It's hard to defend a EMR push gravity model if critics \_give_/ push
gravity effects that the model itself does not predict. Why exactly
would push gravity as EMR give \_drag_/ to an orbitting satelitte?
Notice any force felt in push gravity is only observed if another mass
throws a *shadow* on the first body. Otherwise the object floating in
space is always subject to an equal `push' from all directions of the
universe. Regardless of its motion relative to any other object.

Steve and others assume push gravity as EMR would create drag. But no
explanation as to how this drag is created. For instance an object in a
push gravity universe always has uniform EMR pressure coming in from all
sides. (Except of course if it's experiencing a shadow from another
nearby mass.) This is the basics of the model. In the same way that an
object will continue in an inertial path unless acted upon by an
external force. Which can only be another objects gravitational shadow.
So an object travelling through the solar system that from our
perspective is moving...is actually at rest in its own frame. With an
equal push of universal EMR push gravity from all directions. And the
solar system is moving.

This is possible because in a push EMR model a BB is not neccesary. And
being a novel gravitational model, GR does not apply. Which means any
atom in an infinite universe is always subject to an even push from all
directions. Any point in a infinite universe, ALWAYS has an equal and
infinite amount of universe in all directions. Regardless of its motion
relative to any other atom.

> You immediately run into trouble with the principle of equivalence,
> for one thing. Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
> electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects); but
> gravity bends light. Nor do electromagnetic waves interact with
> internal energy, not with neutrinos; but these *are* affected by
> gravity. You also run into grave problems with aberration (see above),
> and very probably with drag. You would *further* have to explain why
> this high frequency radiation is not absorbed by the Earth enough to
> lead to gravitational screening of the type ruled out by experiment.

This is not a problem in a EMR push model. The push model assumes much
greater energies than those observed exist. And generally they pass
through all mass, like the earth. But a small amount interacts with each
atom. We know this happens because we can observe small amounts of
visible light reflects off atoms. And \_pushes_/ the atom. As in solar
sails. This is evidence that EMR does interact with atoms and can give
observed push. The very basics of a push model are confirmed.

[Moderator's note: The above is an amalgamation of two overlapping
posts. I have also removed superfluous quoted text and reformatted it
somewhat. Also, note that Stever Carlip's original reply addressed
several arguments against such theories; at the very least, one would
have to refute them all, not just the ones mentioned above. -P.H.]

Lou

unread,
Feb 7, 2021, 4:04:21 AMFeb 7
to
On Thursday, 25 May 2006 at 21:00:38 UTC+1, carlip.. wrote:
> Blaze Labs <> wrote:
>> Hello guys,
>> I would like to know the main reasons why the push gravity concept is
>> not considered as a viable concept by mainstream science.
> There are a few generic objections, along with particular problems with
> particular models. The main generic objections I know of are
( Moderator: Thanks for the format edits on my last post. I’ve tried to
better follow The formatting rules here and answer some of the other
points you suggested I address. )
> 2. Aberration: Suppose "pushing" particles move at a speed v, and
> look at the effect on the Solar System. For a planet at distance d
> from the Sun, the "push" will not be toward the instantaneous
> position of the Sun, but towards its position at a time d/v in the
> past. This is a drastic effect -- if v is the speed of light, the
> Solar System would be drastically unstable over a thousand-year
> time scale.
> (The effect of aberration is to increase the velocity of a planet,
> and you might hope that drag would cancel it. But it's easy to
> check that such cancellation can occur at, at most, one radial
> distance from the Sun.)
Instantaneous gravity or at least the appearance of it is not a
problem for emr push gravity.
So for example: A point distance d from the sun. Radiation
pushes from above at distance d. You don’t have to wait for it to
come across the universe. It’s already arrived and is present
everywhere. Not just at point distance d. Otherwise push gravity
wouldn’t work.
The Same applies with the slightly less “push” coming up from the
sun. The suns “shadow” as it is called by some. If you suddenly
materialised at point distance d from the sun you don’t have to
wait for this radiation to come from the suns interior. It’s already
there at that point defined by distance d. Or at any other point
outside the suns surface. The suns push gravity shadow pushing
out, in the suns frame, has been there and propagating outwards,
for the billions of years of its life. Essentially this allows the push
model to appear “instantaneous” at any point, even though the
speed v of the emr gravity itself is finite.
> 3. Principle of equivalence: It is observed that gravity acts not
> only on mass, but on all forms of energy. A "push gravity" theory
> would have to come with an explanation of how the particles that do
> the pushing manage to push against, for example, electrostatic binding
> energy and the kinetic energy of electrons in an atom, and why that
> "push" exactly matches the "push" against ordinary matter.
> In particular, we observe that gravitational binding energy itself
> gravitates. This seems to require self-interaction among the
> pushing particles. On the other hand, the accuracy of the inverse
> square law over long distances requires that the self-interaction
> be very small -- you certainly need a mean free path larger than
> the size of the Solar System if you don't want to mess up Pluto's
> orbit.
I can’t see any incompatibility with Newtonian or Keplerian Principle
of Equivelence. And Steve doesn’t actually cite any specific problems.
And regarding any problems with relativistic PoE, its important to note
Push Gravity and GR are two seperate theories of gravity. Neither needs
to be bound by assumptions made by the other.
> 4. Gravitational screening: There are very strong limits on the kind
> of "gravitational screening" one would expect from a "push gravity"
> model -- see, for example, Unnikrishnan et al., Phys. Rev. D 63 (2001)
> 062002.
Gravitational screening. I’ve checked the paper abstract... it’s paywalled.
I think Steve didn’t read it properly though. It mentions shielding but
no reference to push gravity. Rather an anomolus observation that
the moon may block some of the suns gravity.
> [...]
>> Please note, I am NOT asking about Le Sage ultramundane particles
>> theory (which also falls under the push gravity category), which I can
>> easiely discredit myself. I'm mostly interested in the concept of
>> electromagnetic radiation pressure of high frequency radiation acting
>> as the gravitational mechanism, and its shadowing creating the inverse
>> square law, low pressure areas.
> You immediately run into trouble with the principle of equivalence,
> for one thing. Electromagnetic waves don't interact with other
> electromagnetic waves (except by truly tiny quantum effects); but
> gravity bends light. Nor do electromagnetic waves interact with
> internal energy, not with neutrinos; but these *are* affected by
> gravity. You also run into grave problems with aberration (see above),
This is an odd criticism. Push emr gravity does not need to have emr
interacting with emr. And I won’t broach gravitational bending. It’s a hot
perennial topic with refraction vs GR and needs its own thread.
And as far as I’m aware neutrinoes are not considered EMR. Regarding
“Internal energy”.(atoms?) this is not specified but if an atom already
can be shown to be pushed by emr via solar sails (IKAROS) then
by association the atoms internal energy has been affected by emr.
> and very probably with drag. You would *further* have to explain why
> this high frequency radiation is not absorbed by the Earth enough to
> lead to gravitational screening of the type ruled out by experiment.
> Note that "high frequency [electromagnetic] radiation" is gamma radiation.
> There are experimental measurements of very high energy gamma rays, and
> a fair amount is known about their spectrum. I suspect you would have
> a very hard time reconciling your model with these observations
Once again an odd claim. Push gravity predicts push comes from very
high energies beyond the upper energies of the known spectrum.
To say that these energies don’t exist because they haven’t yet been
observed yet is in itself not a very good assumption in my opinion.
Notice also that EMR push gravity predicts these energies do exist and
states that the observed interaction of hi energy radiation with atoms
will manifest as gravity. Which is observed.

Ray Tomes

unread,
Jun 11, 2021, 3:13:11 AMJun 11
to
It was proven (by Feynman?) that push gravity cannot work if whatever
flux does the pushing is reflected from a mass. That is because the
shadow of any body is exactly balanced by reflections from that body
from the other side. Therefore push *cannot* work by reflection.

The other possibility is push by absorption of the flux. This shows much
more promise because:

1. Such absorption would need to happen at the level of atomic particles
and would therefore cause increase in mass of particles as described in
Narlikar's variable mass hypothesis (VMH).

2. Such a change in particle masses over time would lead to a blue shift
of atomic spectra over time. This looks exactly like a red shift of
spectral lines with distance because distance is a measure of how far
back in time we look. So VMH automatically offers an explanation for the
cosmological redshift.

3. The rate of absorption must exactly explain the cosmological
redshift, and that rate will give exactly the correct strength of
gravity relative to e/m forces as 10^40 weaker.

4. It helps if it is understood that particles are some special form of
standing waves of e/m as described my Milo Wollfe who proved that all of
the properties of the electron were excactly matched by the Wave
Structure of Matter (WSM) model. The exact e/m wave structure of
nucleons has not been determined as far as I know.

5. When the particle standing wave is understood as an incoming and
outgoing (after it passes through the centre) wave as Feynman and
Wheeler almost came to understand for an electron then we can observe
the true meaning of the Large Numbers Hypothesis (LNH) as favoured by
Dirac and Eddington. When a wave has traveled 10^40 (Compton)
wavelengths of a nucleon then it spreads over a sphere of area of 10^80
times a nucleon by which point it becomes the incoming wave of all other
nucleons in the Universe. It is fully absorbed and re radiated at the
Hubble scale.
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