# Indian physicist vindicated in black hole controversy

224 views

### LEJ Brouwer

Aug 6, 2004, 7:31:00 PM8/6/04
to
I know that it has been a while since this matter has been discussed, but it
appears that even
Stephen Hawking has admitted that there isn't a black hole "in the absolute
sense":

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/800815.cms

I am very glad to see that Abhas Mitra is sticking to his guns on this
important issue.

- Sabbir

### Bill Hobba

Aug 6, 2004, 7:52:30 PM8/6/04
to

"LEJ Brouwer" <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zvUQc.81098$vX4....@cyclops.nntpserver.com... Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist. Also I get a little miffed by statements like the following: 'Abhas Mitra, at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, was perhaps the first and the only scientist who had the guts to openly challenge Hawking of Cambridge University who is regarded by many as the modern-day Einstein.' Hawking is a first rate scientist who has done and is probably continuing to do first rate work. But an Einstein he is not. Many would argue living scientists like Witten and Weinberg have a greater claim to that title and certainly when Feynman was alive he also has claims to that mantle. Of course it is doubtful that Hawking is the one perpetrating it and I know I am not the first to mention it as a beat up of the media.. Thanks Bill ### Daniel Weston unread, Aug 7, 2004, 12:08:22 AM8/7/04 to India produces first class mathematicians and physicists. More and more stateside work is being outsourced to India, or their mathematicians and physicists are imported. May Vishnu take mercy on our souls. ### Bill Hobba unread, Aug 7, 2004, 1:17:00 AM8/7/04 to "Daniel Weston" <dani...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2798-411...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net... > India produces first class mathematicians and physicists. More and more > stateside work is being outsourced to India, or their mathematicians and > physicists are imported. May Vishnu take mercy on our souls. Why? India has always produced some first class mathematicians and physicists eg the mathematical magician Ramanujan and the physicists Bose and Chandrasekhar. I seem to recall Feynman was quite taken aback at the suggestion they had not produced any great physicists and cited Abdus Salam as a person he greatly admired and learnt something from every time attended a talk of his. Just because they have not produced someone that most physicists would rate in the top ten of all time (say Einstein or Newton) does not mean they have not produces great mathematicians and physics - they have. Thanks Bill ### ueb unread, Aug 7, 2004, 5:32:55 AM8/7/04 to > - Sabbir There is evidence for the existence of objects with extreme gravitation that may lead to an event horizon. I agree with Mitra that such objects would not follow the known idealized solutions. My simulations reveal another kind of solutions, in which the idealized solutions may be good for initial conditions. - Why does Mitra ignore the more realistic solutions, which already let see particles ? Ulrich ### Australopithecus Afarensis unread, Aug 7, 2004, 3:52:25 AM8/7/04 to > Why? India has always produced some first class mathematicians and > physicists eg the mathematical magician Ramanujan and the physicists Bose > and Chandrasekhar. I seem to recall Feynman was quite taken aback at the > suggestion they had not produced any great physicists and cited Abdus Salam > as a person he greatly admired and learnt something from every time attended > a talk of his. Just because they have not produced someone that most > physicists would rate in the top ten of all time (say Einstein or Newton) > does not mean they have not produces great mathematicians and physics - they > have. That is because Indian physicists do not shamefully try to take credit for other's work. For example, when Bose was desperate looking to publish his paper, he came to Einstein. Einstein only agreed to publish Bose's paper on the condition that Einstein was also the co-author. Thus, we have Bose-Einstein Condensation. Before that, we had ** Lorentz-Einstein Transform ** Einstein-Poincare Special Relativity ** Planck-Einstein Black Body Radiation ** Boltzmann-Einstein Kinematics for ideal gas ** Einstein-Grossmann-Hilbert General Relativity And the list goes on. Have we noticed a trend here? ### Australopithecus Afarensis unread, Aug 7, 2004, 3:56:51 AM8/7/04 to > Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the > popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call > black holes is very strong. Oh, really! Black holes are not directly observable! > Hawking is a first rate scientist who has done and is probably continuing to > do first rate work. But an Einstein he is not. Many would argue living > scientists like Witten and Weinberg have a greater claim to that title and > certainly when Feynman was alive he also has claims to that mantle. Of > course it is doubtful that Hawking is the one perpetrating it and I know I > am not the first to mention it as a beat up of the media.. So, Einstein is a god, and General Relativity is a religion. ### Bill Hobba unread, Aug 7, 2004, 4:01:58 AM8/7/04 to "Australopithecus Afarensis" <fossi...@cox.net> wrote in message news:6X%Qc.35786$sh.12972@fed1read06...

> > Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in
the
> > popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we
> call
> > black holes is very strong.
>
> Oh, really! Black holes are not directly observable!

>
> > Hawking is a first rate scientist who has done and is probably
continuing
> to
> > do first rate work. But an Einstein he is not. Many would argue living
> > scientists like Witten and Weinberg have a greater claim to that title
and
> > certainly when Feynman was alive he also has claims to that mantle. Of
> > course it is doubtful that Hawking is the one perpetrating it and I know
I
> > am not the first to mention it as a beat up of the media..
>
> So, Einstein is a god, and General Relativity is a religion.

No - you are just a peanut brain.

Bill

### LEJ Brouwer

Aug 7, 2004, 9:43:56 AM8/7/04
to
"Daniel Weston" <dani...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2798-411...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net...
> India produces first class mathematicians and physicists. More and more
> stateside work is being outsourced to India, or their mathematicians and
> physicists are imported. May Vishnu take mercy on our souls.

For some reason, I am unable to see Bill Hobba's messages (or my own) on
my newsreader. Nevertheless, this is really a response to Bill.

>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the
>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call
>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people
>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist.

Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all
physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone
who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. I would
refer you to the lengthy but interesting discussion which took place on
this matter on this newsgroup in the past (see the thread 'Academic
censorship
on sci.physics.research?):

>Also I get a little miffed by statements like the following:
>
>'Abhas Mitra, at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, was
>perhaps the first and the only scientist who had the guts to openly
>challenge Hawking of Cambridge University who is regarded by many as the
>modern-day Einstein.'

Well, the article was written by a journalist, not a physicist, and it is
an Indian newspaper besides, so we know whose side they are on. Having said
that, I have known Abhas Mitra for some time, and on this matter I think he
is dead right. I also know that he has made Stephen Hawking aware of his
paper, and has asked him to respond on a number of occasions, but received
no response from him.

>Hawking is a first rate scientist who has done and is probably continuing
to
>do first rate work. But an Einstein he is not. Many would argue living
>scientists like Witten and Weinberg have a greater claim to that title and
>certainly when Feynman was alive he also has claims to that mantle. Of
>course it is doubtful that Hawking is the one perpetrating it and I know I
>am not the first to mention it as a beat up of the media..

I agree with you completely about Hawking. On the other hand, I have
supported Abhas Mitra right from the start on this matter, simply because
his
mathematics is correct, and from my numerous interactions with him I have
found
him to be an extremely admirable character indeed.

I would not be at all surprised if Stephen Hawking read Mitra's paper, found
know flaws in it, used Mitra's results without referencing him to produce
his
'own' solution to the information paradox, which he then presented at the
Dublin conference. Knowing that he was aware of Mitra's work, and given that
in
the past (i.e. black holes do not actually ever form), I feel that it is
very possible
that Hawking is plagiarising Mitra's work and trying to pass it off as his
own.

Even if he is not, and came to his conclusions independently, Mitra was
there well before him.

- Sabbir.

### LEJ Brouwer

Aug 7, 2004, 11:04:17 AM8/7/04
to
"Bill Hobba" <bho...@rubbish.net.au> wrote in message
news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the >popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call >black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people >though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist. Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. I would refer you to the lengthy but interesting discussion which took place on this matter on this newsgroup in the past (see the thread 'Academic censorship on sci.physics.research?): http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=2463c4a5587b36feb41bdca20fa482a2.28832%40mygate.mailgate.org&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dg:thl3080159614d%26dq%3D%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D2463c4a5587b36feb41bdca20fa482a2.28832%2540mygate.mailgate.org >Also I get a little miffed by statements like the following: > >'Abhas Mitra, at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) in Mumbai, was >perhaps the first and the only scientist who had the guts to openly >challenge Hawking of Cambridge University who is regarded by many as the >modern-day Einstein.' Well, the article was written by a journalist, not a physicist, and it is an Indian newspaper besides, so we know whose side they are on. Having said that, I have known Abhas Mitra for some time, and on this matter I think he is dead right. I also know that he has made Stephen Hawking aware of his paper, and has asked him to respond on a number of occasions, but received no response from him. >Hawking is a first rate scientist who has done and is probably continuing to >do first rate work. But an Einstein he is not. Many would argue living >scientists like Witten and Weinberg have a greater claim to that title and >certainly when Feynman was alive he also has claims to that mantle. Of >course it is doubtful that Hawking is the one perpetrating it and I know I >am not the first to mention it as a beat up of the media.. I agree with you completely about Hawking. On the other hand, I have supported Abhas Mitra right from the start on this matter, simply because his mathematics is correct, and from my numerous interactions with him I have found him to be an extremely admirable character indeed. I would not be at all surprised if Stephen Hawking read Mitra's paper, found know flaws in it, used Mitra's results without referencing him to produce his 'own' solution to the information paradox, which he then presented at the Dublin conference. Knowing that he was aware of Mitra's work, and given that Mitra had already stated much the same solution to the information paradox in the past (i.e. black holes do not actually ever form), I feel that it is very possible that Hawking is plagiarising Mitra's work and trying to pass it off as his own. (Someone has mentioned that Einstein may have been similarly opportunistic in the past - I don't know much about that, but I certainly would not put it past Hawking). And even if he is not, and came to his conclusions independently, Mitra was ### Androcles unread, Aug 7, 2004, 12:34:09 PM8/7/04 to "Daniel Weston" <dani...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2798-411...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net... | India produces first class mathematicians and physicists. More and more | stateside work is being outsourced to India, or their mathematicians and | physicists are imported. May Vishnu take mercy on our souls. Why this ethnic slant? Is there some relevance to it? Is there something about a political boundary within which a person is born that makes one mathematician different from another? Since the population of India is about 4 times greater that the population of the USA, it can hardly be surprising that there would be four times as many mathematicians. Maybe Indians don't compete for scholarships by playing with a ball... Androcles ### Daniel Weston unread, Aug 7, 2004, 1:58:02 PM8/7/04 to To Androcles: The only slant to my post is emphasizing that U.S. jobs are being shipped overseas. I understand all the humanitarian benefits to be had when the emerging (backward) economies have wages brought up and ours brought down so that all Indians, and all Chinese, and all South America, all make the same identical wage. For the US citizens and those of GB, the transition phase will be one very long transition phase of recession and decreasing standard of living. I think that is wonderfully humanitarian so long as it does not effect my income. Those in Bangladesh might have to wait 1 or 2 years extra. BTW, an Indian computer programmer can be had for 1/3 the cost of a stateside programmer. That is great for me but sad for the people I know that are being laid off by HP thereby necessitating them to work in fast food joints at half the previous income. I also think it is OK for all the Indians and Mexicans who want our welfare to move to GB and US. Our citizens' welfare will go down radically, but that bad feeling will be assuaged by the increased happiness of new welfare recipients from all the backward countries. Glory be. ### Zachary Uram unread, Aug 7, 2004, 2:53:56 PM8/7/04 to ueb <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<7k72fc...@Muse2.private.de>... Hallo Ulrich, Do you have a website? Zach ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 7, 2004, 3:48:07 PM8/7/04 to Now THAT is the real question. Will he admit where he got his ideas from? Or will he try to take all the credit for himself in the hope that noone will notice? ### Australopithecus Afarensis unread, Aug 7, 2004, 6:18:22 PM8/7/04 to A lot of theories predict an event horizon of some sort. Although some theories do interpret event horizon as existnece of black holes, event horizon does not necessarily mean existence of black holes in general. ### Australopithecus Afarensis unread, Aug 8, 2004, 12:11:13 AM8/8/04 to The wage difference including benefits between the US and India/China is more like 8:1 for engineering and software development, 4:1 for blue collar production work. With the rapid de-industrialization of the US, the only high paying jobs are services. With services, you really don't need a good education. It is very interesting to see if a strong economy can be sustained with only service industry. I have a feeling that in two generations, the US would be a third world country. The question now is why the government allows this to happen. The answer is to promote an under-educated mass. Ever since the internet opened up closets to allow all skeletons to tell their sides of stories, intellectual ideas flourished. One such finding does indicate our government is actually supervised by a small group of elite spanning international communities. With an educated and financially more independent middle class, it is rather difficult for this elite group to control it and maintain power. Thus, by destroying the economic base of the middle class, the middle class (or going to be lack of it) have to spend more time and less sophisticated jobs to feed their families. The educational base will suffer despite the extend of internet. There are a lot of good information and analysis out there. However, there are also piles of mis-information and misleading analysis which an educated person with a logical and analytical educational background can easily make use of the good and discard the useless materials. Although the job loss started in the mid 70's to the far east, these were blue collar jobs which do not require a lot of education to fulfill. However, the current trend of job loss is alarming. They are white collar jobs which need a higher educational background to achieve.With dumbing down of educational system, it becomes very difficult for the mass to determine what is useful and what is BS. The mass becomes easier to control. You may argue all these transitions are normal and based on capitalism. If capitalism is thoroughly executed, there are just too many benefits to speak out for capitalism. However, if the rules imposed on the development of capitalism only applied to one nation and not others, it is not capitalism any more but a form of socialist planning. For example, if Indian companies don't care about their environment nor benefits of their workers, it would be silly to allow the US to compete against India. Another example is if the Chinese utilize slave labor for their international economic competition, it is rather unfair for the US to compete. But all these things do happen in the international arena. So, folks, brace yourselves for a transition to a third world statue with downgrading of living standard in the next two generations. The internet is becoming too powerful. They have to do something to compensate. We are living on the fruits of industrialization built by our fathers, grandfathers, and beyond which give us an advantage among international communities. Now, without the industrial base, we are bound to spend all our ancestors left us. That would leave nothing to show for our children, grandchildren, and beyond. May Einstein (our god) have mercy on our souls (in the context of General Relativity as a relgion). Amen. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Androcles" <andr...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 09:34 AM Subject: Re: Indian physicist vindicated in black hole controversy Why this ethnic slant? Is there some relevance to it? Is there something about a political boundary within which a person is born that makes one mathematician different from another? Since the population of India is about 4 times greater that the population of the USA, it can hardly be surprising that there would be four times as many mathematicians. Maybe Indians don't compete for scholarships by playing with a ball... Androcles ### Androcles unread, Aug 8, 2004, 6:49:07 AM8/8/04 to "Daniel Weston" <dani...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2797-411...@storefull-3136.bay.webtv.net... Not being a US citizen but having lived in the USA for 20 years, I recognize parochialism when I see it. I do not feel *I* require an attitude adjustment. Tell me, how does employing cheaper mathematicians, physicists, engineers, chemists etc. make your standard of living fall, since you will be buying cheaper cars, cheaper carpets, cheaper refrigerators, cheaper drugs etc., of the same quality or better than before. 'Wage' was, is and will forever remain the number of hours you have to work to obtain breakfast, and from what I've seen of obesity in the USA, you eat too many breakfasts. Yes, it is happening in Britain too. I know you've come to expect a new car at least once a year, preferably a gas guzzling SUV, and consider anyone with less than a two car garage is poor, but you'll soon be able to get those essentials cheaper because you'll be employing cheaper labour to manufacture them. Well, you are already doing that. The company I worked for in Pittsburgh shipped product to Mexico for cheap manual assembly until Genicom, our customer, filed Chapter 11 because it still could not compete. You guys scream "Land of Freedom" and "Land of Opportunity", but when anyone takes advantage of that you turn into a bunch of Luddites. Sorry, mate, but yours is THE capitalist society, driven by fierce competition, and if India plays by your rules, remember you wrote the rules. You'll just have to compete harder, won't you? Androcles ### ueb unread, Aug 8, 2004, 6:05:18 AM8/8/04 to Zachary Uram wrote > Hallo Ulrich, > Do you have a website? http://home.t-online.de/home/Ulrich.Bruchholz/ Ulrich ### ueb unread, Aug 8, 2004, 8:19:20 AM8/8/04 to LEJ Brouwer wrote: > "Bill Hobba" wrote in message > news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the
>>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call
>>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people
>>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist.

> Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all
> physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone
> who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. I would
> refer you to the lengthy but interesting discussion which took place on
> this matter on this newsgroup in the past (see the thread 'Academic
> censorship on sci.physics.research?):

Abhas Mitra has been attacked from Chris Hillman, whom John Baez has
meanwhile dropped like a hot potato for his immaturity and childishness.
I'm not convinced that such attack would mean a lot.
The role of such persons might be a huge lot worse for unknown persons
who have to say something essential, and who are not perceived by
the persons who should understand it, thanks to these minor-minded
creatures.

> - Sabbir.

That is a hard suspicion. But Mitra is in a position where he can fight.
What shall I say ? As long I live, the people concerned are ironly
silent, and nobody will prevent them from helping themselves as soon I'm
dead. If Mitra has the noble character as you tell, he should immediately
take care of my work.

Ulrich

PS:

> For some reason, I am unable to see Bill Hobba's messages (or my own) on

Try Mozilla, better another OS.

### LEJ Brouwer

Aug 8, 2004, 9:27:59 AM8/8/04
to
"ueb" <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:8o55fc...@Muse2.private.de...

Hi Ulrich,

I think Mitra is still busy trying to finish fighting his own battles and it
is premature for him to start thinking about waging other people's wars.
Anyway, although it does not seem like it sometimes, I am on your side, and
sincerely hope that your ideas are right. Even having spent so much time
studying it, I do not like quantum theory - it makes no sense at all, and
appears to have no compelling mathematical basis. My hunch is that there is
enough complexity even in classical physics to explain the apparently
quantum-mechanical observations that we make.

Best wishes,

Sabbir.

### Daniel Weston

Aug 8, 2004, 11:50:01 AM8/8/04
to
The problem of outsourcing is presenting economics with new grist for
living in countries that permitted free expression. (non dictatorships)
But when free trade was spoken of. they were referring to free trade in
_goods_, NOT free trade in labor.

Within the US we have free trade in labor.
Anybody can move to any state to work, and any company can outsource any
work to another state. If is desired the company can pick itself up and
move to another state. Or any worker can leave his state and move to
any other state to live and work. Absolutely no restrictions. And the
US has benefited from this "mobility of labor". "Mobility of labor"
enables the most efficient utilization of labor, thereby raising the
general standard of living when the country is considered as a whole.

So why not put the whole world on an unrestricted "mobility of labor"?
The problem lies in the aspect of _transition_.
People reading my first post overlooked my using of that term. For many
reasons the transition may be very painful and disruptive. Rather than
a dissertation let me ask a very simple question. What would happen if
the US and GB opened up its borders permitting any Muslims, any people
from Uganda, India, Mexico, China, etc immigrate. Answer, it would
lower "our" standard of living, and raise theirs. If the mobility were
indeed free, it would cause extreme dislocations, civil unrest, and
hardships unbounded.

When it comes to the free movement of labor and laborers, I support the
"trickle" theory. Let it be done slowly so disruptions are minimized.
When a few computer manufacturers and computer programmers lost their
jobs, that was OK but how much is enough. Or to put it another way, how
much is to much?

### ueb

Aug 8, 2004, 7:15:00 PM8/8/04
to
Hi Sabbir,

> Hi Ulrich,

> I think Mitra is still busy trying to finish fighting his own battles and it
> is premature for him to start thinking about waging other people's wars.

You see that too narrowly:
1.) That is not other people's war. It is the science itself.
2.) My insights and results should excellently help Mitra fight.
Mitra will not win the fight, if he confines himself to "his own battles".
I knew just one person who could get him that - you !

> Anyway, although it does not seem like it sometimes, I am on your side, and
> sincerely hope that your ideas are right. Even having spent so much time
> studying it, I do not like quantum theory - it makes no sense at all, and
> appears to have no compelling mathematical basis. My hunch is that there is
> enough complexity even in classical physics to explain the apparently
> quantum-mechanical observations that we make.

If you replace "classical" with "geometrical", then it is no hunch
but certainty. :-)

Best wishes,

Ulrich

### ueb

Aug 8, 2004, 7:25:59 PM8/8/04
to
Daniel Weston wrote
[ununderstandable stuff]

I have no idea what you want to say.
Abhas Mitra is in India and Sabbir Rahman is in Bangla Desh,
and both do not think to immigrate.

Ulrich

### Daniel Weston

Aug 8, 2004, 6:17:01 PM8/8/04
to
Ulrich, what are you talking about? Is English your native language? I
was obviously talking about general problems, not specific applications
to specific persons.

### ueb

Aug 9, 2004, 7:20:34 AM8/9/04
to

I did so for politeness.
Because what you talk about "general problems" may be good for
the local but does not belong to a circle of educated humans.
(And it is inappropriate in this thread.)

Ulrich

### ueb

Aug 9, 2004, 4:28:33 PM8/9/04
to
Daniel Weston wrote:
> Ulrich, my comments were in no way inappropriate and the subject matter
> applies to science jobs and science support jobs. Before you start
> telling me what is appropriate and not appropriate, learn to read and
> learn basic economics, particular free market economcs.

I know your "general problem" quite well.
In Germany, people tell in the local that the foreigners take the jobs
(even also science jobs) from them. Everybody, who knows a bit of
basic economics, knows that such talk is crap. Only neonazis and
extremists profit from that.
BTW, why do you not discuss your great ideas about economics in an
economics newsgroup ?

Ulrich

### Daniel Weston

Aug 10, 2004, 11:44:05 AM8/10/04
to
Ulrich: My ideas about economics are not "great". It is Econ 101.

### Daniel Weston

Aug 13, 2004, 1:12:23 PM8/13/04
to
Ulrich: It appears that you are German. I would like to say that IMO
German economists on balance are more knowledgeable than US and British
economists. My opinions regarding economics are consistent with the
Austrian School of economics.

### Australopithecus Afarensis

Aug 14, 2004, 2:44:54 AM8/14/04
to
> My opinions regarding economics are consistent with the
> Austrian School of economics.

So, we have two extreme executions of economic systems:

** Communism/socialism
** Capitalism/Austrian School of Economics

Ideally, either system, if done righteously without corruptions and other
inevitable devious means greedily committed by the ruling elites, would
benefit all economical classes. However, when dealing with human nature, it
is impossible to be ideal in this case. We have the government dominated by
the elites controlling corporations taking the advantage of middle class,
and we have the corporations dominated by the elites controlling the
government to take the advantage of the middle class. The result is the
same. The difference is in the methodology.

In our world, it appears the capitalistic societies have triumphed over the
communists so far. The trend is heading for ruins in capitalistic countries
as well which the US is a good example. Therefore, the Orwelling society
can be achieved from either ends of the economic systems.

What is the alternative? There exists a German School of Economics. I am
not saying this system is ideal, but it was executed during the
industrialization of the US and many other countries. It allowed our
fathers to leave us with a great industrialized society far outpacing others
which in our generation we are throwing it all away because we have adopted
the Austrian School of Economics in the '60's and '70's. The elites sitting
in their corporations can screw the middle class by controlling our
government. It is worth while to learn from the recent failures of the
elites sitting in their government screwing the middle class by controlling
their corporations.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Australopithecus Afarensis" <fossi...@cox.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 09:11 PM
Subject: Re: Indian physicist vindicated in black hole controversy

To Androcles: The only slant to my post is emphasizing that U.S. jobs
are being shipped overseas. I understand all the humanitarian benefits
to be had when the emerging (backward) economies have wages brought up
and ours brought down so that all Indians, and all Chinese, and all
South America, all make the same identical wage. For the US citizens
and those of GB, the transition phase will be one very long transition
phase of recession and decreasing standard of living. I think that is
wonderfully humanitarian so long as it does not effect my income. Those
in Bangladesh might have to wait 1 or 2 years extra. BTW, an Indian
computer programmer can be had for 1/3 the cost of a stateside
programmer. That is great for me but sad for the people I know that are
being laid off by HP thereby necessitating them to work in fast food
joints at half the previous income. I also think it is OK for all the
Indians and Mexicans who want our welfare to move to GB and US. Our
citizens' welfare will go down radically, but that bad feeling will be
assuaged by the increased happiness of new welfare recipients from all
the backward countries. Glory be.

----- Original Message -----

### Daniel Weston

Aug 14, 2004, 11:23:26 AM8/14/04
to
Afarensis: What do you know about the Austrian School? Have you read
Von Mises? When the elite take over the government and screw the middle
class, that is not Austrian economics. BTW, I should mention that in
every government throughout history that I am aware of, the elite run
the government and seek and obtain special privileges. The question, is
how do we keep it to a minimum. Countries which are the more successful
in controlling corruption, have the highest standard of living. The top
10 countries with the highest standard of living, have comparative less
corruption than those with the lower standards of living.
---
Pure Communism is much worse than pure Capitalism, unless you believe
that government bureaucrats are better at determining prices and
allocating resources than the free market. In pure free markets, it is
the People that set the prices. The prices allocate resources.

### Australopithecus Afarensis

Aug 15, 2004, 1:54:40 AM8/15/04
to
> Afarensis: What do you know about the Austrian School? Have you read
> Von Mises?

Von Mises and Rothbard were good friends. As the founding father of the
Libertarian Party, Rothbard hated communism, but his ideology represents the
other end of the spectrum which is just as bad.

> When the elite take over the government and screw the middle
> class, that is not Austrian economics.

I agree if the Austrian School of Economics is executed in perfection.
However, there is no such thing as an ideal situation, do we?

> BTW, I should mention that in
> every government throughout history that I am aware of, the elite run
> the government and seek and obtain special privileges. The question, is
> how do we keep it to a minimum. Countries which are the more successful
> in controlling corruption, have the highest standard of living. The top
> 10 countries with the highest standard of living, have comparative less
> corruption than those with the lower standards of living.

Yes, good observation. The countries with fewer corruptions adopt neither
Austrian School of Economics nor Communism.

> Pure Communism is much worse than pure Capitalism, unless you believe
> that government bureaucrats are better at determining prices and
> allocating resources than the free market.

Pure communism is just as bad as pure capitalism, and vice versa.

> In pure free markets, it is
> the People that set the prices. The prices allocate resources.

Imagine there is no FDA. So, when a drug company introduces a drug, it is
up to the consumers to figure out the merit of the product. If the drug
kills a lot of people, the consumers would figure out in time that this
product is no good. Therefore, they would not be buying that product any
more. It is a beautiful thing to allow the free market to take over its
course, isn't it?

Imagine there is no FCC. One giant corporation can just come in introduce
all sorts of products hogging all frequency bands. Any new comers would not
be able to compete any more. Again, this is a free market system, is it
not?

Imagine there is no anti-trust law. This is the free market at its best,
isn't it?

What are wrong with these pictures above? Luckily, our fathers were smart
enough not to endorse the Austrian School of Economics. We are now
endorsing it at an accelerated rate after the collapse of Soviet Empire.
Embracing the Austrian School of Economics, we are becoming less and less
industrialized every day.

No, I have not, but do you care to give a few paragraphs of summary?

### Eric Baird

Aug 15, 2004, 3:49:19 PM8/15/04
to

Yep, the theory of bodies with a surface escape velocity equal or
greater than lightspeed goes way back ... Michell published a long
paper on the subject of what we'd now refer to as "dark stars" in the
journal of the Royal Society, it's in the 1784 volume.

I think I probably still have a transcribed copy in .PDF format
somewhere if anyone needs it. Don;t know if it would be against ng
etiquette to post it here (does a PDF count as a binary? I guess it
probably does).

So that aspect wasn;t new, the thing that made GR black holes
different was the total collapse ot a singularity, and the /total/
lack of radiaiton,and the way that the innards of a black hole were
supposed to be totally cut off from the outside universe by a one-way
surface. Dark stars let stuff percolate out through the horizon, black
holes didn't.

I think that people also tend to forget that Einstein himself
reputedly never accepted the black hole idea and apaprently thought
that the idea was flakey. I think he even published a paper (which I
can't remember much about, its buried in my files somewhere) arguing
something like high gravity objects can;t undego total collapse, or
else their interiouirs woudl lose the notraml causal connection with
the outside universe, which is obviously forbidden. Something like
that, anyway.

I actually think that Einstein comes out of this pretty well, he
apparently never caved in and accepted the black hole idea, and now I
think he's been proved right (posthumously).

But nowadays things get confusing: from the original usage, "QM" black
holes arguably aren't black holes, but we call them black holes
anyway, because that's now the common word for horizon-bounded
high-gravity objects. Phenomenologically, it's probably more correct
to call them dark stars, but that would make it look as is we were
saying that GR was wrong, and upset the SR/GR people, and we don't
want to do that, so we say that GR was right, the objects show
classical black hole behaviour underneath, but then we have this
additional QM layer on top that spoils things and just happens to make
our black holes /look/ like old pre-GR dark stars, even though they
supposedly aren't, not really ...

The king is dead, long live the king.

Certainly, the GR description of a black hole does not seem to
correspond to anything in our universe, if the current interpretations
of QM are to be believed.
But there are almost certainly super-dense, high-gravity objects out
there. We just don't know what to call the damned things any more.
The whole thing seems to be becoming a bit like a game of chinese
whispers.

=Erk= (Eric Baird)
: " Soylent Green is purple?!?"

### Eric Baird

Aug 15, 2004, 10:18:11 PM8/15/04
to
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:19:20 +0000, ueb <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de>
wrote:

>LEJ Brouwer wrote:
>> "Bill Hobba" wrote in message
>> news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >>>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the >>>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call >>>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people >>>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist. > >> Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all >> physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone >> who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. I would >> refer you to the lengthy but interesting discussion which took place on >> this matter on this newsgroup in the past (see the thread 'Academic >> censorship on sci.physics.research?): > >> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=2463c4a5587b36feb41bdca20fa482a2.28832%40mygate.mailgate.org&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dg:thl3080159614d%26dq%3D%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D2463c4a5587b36feb41bdca20fa482a2.28832%2540mygate.mailgate.org > >Abhas Mitra has been attacked from Chris Hillman, whom John Baez has >meanwhile dropped like a hot potato for his immaturity and childishness. >I'm not convinced that such attack would mean a lot. Woo, I tracked back to Hillman's post, to have a look-see, and he really did seem to be freaking out, didn't he! I was slightly bemused by CH saying:: :: ... an earlier draft of this preprint, unfortunately no :: longer available on LANL (but I have a hard copy printout) ... , because its a design feature of the LANL system that posted submissions always stay available. The latest posted version of a paper becomes the default link, but the earlier incarnations stay there, preserved in all their glory (or otherwise), and explicitly linked to at the top of the paper's auto-generated LANL abstract page. Hillman posted a link to the paper's abstract page, and there at the top of the page are the appropriate links to all the earlier versions, presumably including the one that he said was no longer available on LANL. The links do seem to work. <shrugs> =Erk= (Eric Baird) : " If one record company turns down the Beatles, it's a screwup. : If several record companies turn down the Beatles, it's an understandable mistake. : If every record company turn down the Beatles, then everybody concerned made the right decision. " ### dlzc1 D:cox T:net@nospam.com N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) unread, Aug 15, 2004, 10:59:55 PM8/15/04 to Dear Eric Baird: "Eric Baird" <eric_...@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:ra60i0defrrgbbfql...@4ax.com... Not making any proclaimations, but there are a whole group of medical conditions that can similarly affect the psyche. Alterations in "normal" behaviors, paranoia, etc. They all indicate a need for medical attention. Chris has been a rock. I hope Chris has support now... David A. Smith ### R. Srinivasan unread, Aug 16, 2004, 3:33:33 AM8/16/04 to Eric Baird <eric_...@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:<k9evh0h2vrlbv6lm5...@4ax.com>... Not being an expert on GR or QM, I am totally confused about one issue here. It seems that Abhas Mitra is claiming that GR does not predict the existence of black holes (in the strict sense). So we now have (a) GR proves that black holes do not exist (in the strict sense); this is Mitra's, and now, Hawking's claim. (b) GR proves that black holes do exist in the strict sense (the earlier claim of Hawking and other mainstream relativists). Now is it that (b) is wrong? If so, why should the SR/GR believers be upset? After all, (a) is a favourable result as far as compatibility with QM is concerned. On the other hand, if both (a) and (b) are true, I can see why the relativists would be upset, for that would make GR a logically inconsistent theory. Can someone clarify whether Mitra (and now Hawking) used *only* GR in claiming (a) or did they (perhaps tacitly) bring in QM considerations into the picture? If they used *only* GR, then has any error in the earlier (widely accepted) claim (b) been found? R. Srinivasan ### Daniel Weston unread, Aug 16, 2004, 3:02:44 PM8/16/04 to Afarensis again says that pure Communism is just as bad as pure Capitalism. In so saying, Afarensis was merely restating the proposition, not making an argument. I hope he does not continue to avoid answering this QUESTION: Do you believe that government bureaucrats in pure Communism are better in determining prices and allocating resources than in pure Capitalism where the people determine the prices and hence the allocation of resources. --- I generally agree with Afarensis that the Gov. should assume some responsibility for the general welfare, if it is done pursuant to a freely elected governing body. If the people wish to tax themselves for this purpose, that is OK by me. The crucial issue is when does the intervention of the Gov. result is less creation of wealth? At some point the people are sharing poverty rather than sharing prosperity. ### John Baez unread, Aug 16, 2004, 4:45:55 PM8/16/04 to In article <8o55fc...@Muse2.private.de>, ueb <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de> wrote: >LEJ Brouwer wrote: >> "Bill Hobba" wrote in message >> news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

>>>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the
>>>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call
>>>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people
>>>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist.

>> Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all
>> physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone
>> who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise.

That may be true if this "anyone" has never studied general relativity.
However, anyone who has will see that Mitra's work is based on some
serious misunderstandings of this subject, and is full of mistakes.

Black holes may or may not exist, but Mitra's work sheds no light on
this matter. In particular, his blunders have not been vindicated by
Hawking's new insights.

Ulrich Brucholz also wrote:

>Abhas Mitra has been attacked from Chris Hillman, whom John Baez has
>meanwhile dropped like a hot potato for his immaturity and childishness.
>I'm not convinced that such attack would mean a lot.

It actually does mean a lot, because while Hillman gets overly
upset about the mistakes of various crackpots, he knows general
relativity well and is good at spotting mistakes.

I never "dropped" Chris Hillman, whatever that means. We're friends,
and I'm glad he is learning how to waste less time arguing with
people on the internet and more time thinking about interesting things.

### Australopithecus Afarensis

Aug 17, 2004, 1:39:24 AM8/17/04
to
> Afarensis again says that pure Communism is just as bad as pure
> Capitalism. In so saying, Afarensis was merely restating the
> proposition, not making an argument. I hope he does not continue to
> avoid answering this QUESTION: Do you believe that government
> bureaucrats in pure Communism are better in determining prices and
> allocating resources than in pure Capitalism where the people determine
> the prices and hence the allocation of resources.

Mr. Weston is not listening to what I am saying. In this scenario, we are
given with two choices of extremities in economical systems. One is
communism, and the other the other one is pure capitalism which can be
described as anarchism without any authority interfering with the course of
the economic development. Well, you are comparing oranges with apples by
assuming one situation as ideal and the other one as mundane.

In one choiced situation, you are idealizing pure capitalism as simple as
consumers setting prices. Everything becomes extraordinarily "cool".
However, the world is far from perfect. In a society with pure capitalism,
it is the corporations that screw the workers and the consumers by any means
of false advertisement and extreme abuses. If you are describing a utopian
pure capitalistic society, it is fair for you to compare with an equally
utopian communist society where the leadership is able to analyze the data
and plan for production to meet the projected demands. If not, it should be
fair for you to conclude the corporations able to control the resources by
any evil means. One example in today's society is the price of silver
staying stagnant without any change in the past 20-30 years..

> I generally agree with Afarensis that the Gov. should assume some
> responsibility for the general welfare, if it is done pursuant to a
> freely elected governing body. If the people wish to tax themselves for
> this purpose, that is OK by me. The crucial issue is when does the
> intervention of the Gov. result is less creation of wealth? At some
> point the people are sharing poverty rather than sharing prosperity.

You are right on. Historically, it actually does not take much to balance
it in any situation if adopting the German School of Economics. During the
time of plenty, it is obvious that all citizens should be sharing the
wealth. In time of scarcity such as war and pestilence, the system should
force all citizens to share poverty. It is actually as simple as what it
appears.

### R. Srinivasan

Aug 17, 2004, 6:30:28 AM8/17/04
to
ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu (John Baez) wrote in message news:<cfr6e3$rkv$1...@glue.ucr.edu>...

> In article <8o55fc...@Muse2.private.de>,
> ueb <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >LEJ Brouwer wrote:
>
> >> "Bill Hobba" wrote in message
> >> news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > >>>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the > >>>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call > >>>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people > >>>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist. > > >> Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all > >> physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone > >> who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. > > That may be true if this "anyone" has never studied general relativity. > However, anyone who has will see that Mitra's work is based on some > serious misunderstandings of this subject, and is full of mistakes. > > Black holes may or may not exist, but Mitra's work sheds no light on > this matter. In particular, his blunders have not been vindicated by > Hawking's new insights. > [...] Can you kindly elaborate on the alleged "mistakes" and "blunders" of Mitra? After all, he has published his work in a very respectable journal (Found. Phys. Lett.) and has received favourable feedback from experts (see quotes below). I am interested in this issue for purely logical reasons. In particular, is Hawking's latest claim that black holes do not exist in the strict sense (which is what Mitra also claimed in his work) derived *purely* from the GR postulates or does it involve QM as well? What, if any, are the errors in the earlier (widely accepted) claim that the GR postulates imply the existence of black holes in the strict sense? It seems to me that the earlier claim can co-exist with the latest claim if the latter involved the QM postulates as well; what would be demonstrated in this case is an incompatibility between GR and QM. Otherwise one of the two claims has to be wrong, in order to argue for the consistency of GR. A third possibility is that GR neither proves the existence nor the nonexistence of black holes, i.e., it is incomplete and these two opposing claims are both consistent extensions of GR (at least from the viewpoint of classical logic). Here are some quotes from the website cited in the original post: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/800815.cms \begin{quote} "Except a handful, the majority of mainstream scientists dismissed Mitra's conclusions even though, till now, no scientist has contradicted him in writing. Mitra invited several notable black hole theorists including Hawking and Jayant Narlikar of India to criticise his work but no one replied." "In a subsequent work Mitra showed that the 'Eternally Collapsing Objects' that he proposed are actually the massive compact objects now referred to as Black Hole Candidates (BHCs). Motivated by Mitra's work, American physicists Stanley Robertson and Darryl Leiter have confirmed in 2002 that BHCs have intense magnetic fields as predicted by Mitra and therefore are not real black holes which cannot have magnetic field." "Though his own colleagues had sidelined Mitra after his first paper, he is solaced by the encouraging e-mails he had received from several physicists around the world. One from Salvatore Antoci, University of Padova, Italy, a noted relativist says: 'Let me express to you my great joy in seeing your much-disputed paper eventually accepted for publication by Foundations of Physics Letters. Convincing the community of relativists about the mythical nature of black holes will remain a tremendous task, but it is a little less desperate thanks to your success.' Peder Norberg, of the Department of Physics, Durham University, UK, said he carefully read through Mitra's paper and found 'that most of the results presented there are more than impressive' while Stanley Robertson, a relativist of South Oklahoma St Univ, USA said: 'On first becoming acquainted with your work, I was dubious, thinking it unlikely that something as profound as belief in the existence of black holes could become erroneously established in the literature. In the meanwhile, I have found no errors in your work. It is fascinating.' The only Indian who praised Mitra's work was relativist Pankaj Joshi of the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research in Mumbai." \end{quote} R. Srinivasan ### John Baez unread, Aug 17, 2004, 2:43:40 PM8/17/04 to In article <f8cdd05c.04081...@posting.google.com>, R. Srinivasan <srad...@in.ibm.com> wrote: >Can you kindly elaborate on the alleged "mistakes" and "blunders" of >Mitra? Sure. See below. >I am interested in this issue for purely logical reasons. In >particular, is Hawking's latest claim that black holes do not exist in >the strict sense (which is what Mitra also claimed in his work) >derived *purely* from the GR postulates or does it involve QM as well? Hawking's argument involves a combination of GR and QM. Since there is not yet a full-fledged rigorous theory combining GR and QM, his argument is necessarily somewhat heuristic. He also hasn't made the details public yet - he hasn't put a paper on the arXiv. So, it's premature to try to discuss it in detail. Mitra's argument involve a combination of GR and mistakes. GR is a mathematically rigorous theory, so black holes either exist in this theory or not. Mitra claims they don't; most people know they do. >What, if any, are the errors in the earlier (widely accepted) claim >that the GR postulates imply the existence of black holes in the >strict sense? NONE. The errors lie with Mitra, not everyone else in the world. Here's some old discussion of Mitra's mistakes. I also wrote my own analysis of his mistakes back when I had to reject some of his articles on sci.physics.research, but it'd take a bunch of work to find this now. ............................................................................. From: Chris Hillman <hil...@math.washington.edu> Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity Subject: Black Hole Preprints by Abhas Mitra [Was: charged black holes] Followup-To: sci.physics.relativity Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:04:11 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.33.010717...@goedel3.math.washington.edu> On Sat, 14 Jul 2001, "zirkus" wrote (in sci.physics.research): >> Btw, I have not looked at the following paper but, according to its >> abstract, GTR only admits the existence of extremal black holes and >> the paper might discuss how this result is related to string theory: >> >> http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9905182 This preprint is by Abhas Mitra, a nuclear physicist by training, who apparently likes to claim expertise in astrophysics. But, unfortunately, when it comes to gtr there is no simply polite way of describing his level of understanding, which literally does not rise to what is expected of -undergraduate students- taking a first course in gtr (c.f. the well known textbook by Schutz). -Of course- Mitra is flat out wrong. Specifically: (1) Mitra claims that gtr only allows extremal Reissner-Nordstrom electrovacuums (q = m in relativistic units in which G = c = 1)! In fact, any decent undergraduate student of gtr can easily check that the subextremal (q < m) RN hole is a perfectly legitimate exact electrovacuum solution to the EFE; that is, it solves the Maxwell source-free field equation on curved spacetime and also the Einstein tensor matches the EM stress-energy tensor, so the RN electrovacuum models a the exterior fields, both electric and gravitational, of a massive charged object. The maximal extension has a global conformal structure which Mitra doesn't like (or understand), but no matter how many preprints he posts to LANL claiming otherwise, he cannot change the fact that it -is- a perfectly legitimate exact solution to the Einstein-Maxwell field equations. Indeed, a standard problem for beginning students of gtr is to -derive- the this electrovacuum. See for example the discussion of the RN electrovacuum in this review paper or in the well-known monograph Stephen W. Hawking and G. F. Ellis, The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time. Cambridge University Press, 1975. In print, ISBN 0-521-09906-4; list price$47.95 (paperback)

or in widely used gtr textbooks such as

Ray A. d'Inverno,
Introducing Einstein's Relativity
Oxford University Press, 1992
In print, ISBN 0-19-859686-3; list price $42.95 (paperback). Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne, and John A. Wheeler, Gravitation, W. H. Freeman & Company, 1973. In print, ISBN 0-7167-0344-0; list price$63.95 (paperback).

as well in as these high quality on-line course notes:

Mitra has posted many other c---ky preprints to the LANL server, including

in which, as anyone can easily verify:

(2) Mitra claims that the tangent vectors to a timelike geodesic in the
Schwarzschild vacuum must become -null- at the event horizon r = 2m; this
timelike vector at r = 2m and evolve backward in time a timelike geodesic,
parametrized by proper time, by using this initial data in the geodesic
equations. Mitra appears to be completely unaware of the Painleve chart

ds^2 = -dt^2 + (dr + sqrt(2m/r) dr)^2 + r^2 (du^2 + sin(u)^2 dv^2)

-infty < t < infty, 0 < r < infty, 0 < u < pi, -pi < v < pi

in which it is very easy to find explicitly the world lines of "LeMaitre
observers", namely

r(t) = (9m/2)^(1/3) (t0-t)^(2/3),

-infty < t < t0

Here, r(t1) = 2m for t1 = t0-4m/3, and it is true that the -coordinate
slope- dr/dt equals -1 there, but if you draw the -light cone- there using
the LeMaitre ONB of vectors

e_1 = d/dt - sqrt(2m/r) d/dr

e_2 = d/dr

e_3 = 1/r d/du

e_4 = 1/(r sin(u)) d/dv

(to draw the light cones in the tr plane, use the null vectors e_1 + e_2,
e_1 - e_2), or if you simply compute the squared magnitude of the tangent
vector, you will see that of course this tangent vector is -timelike-, not
null! Part of Mitra's confusion throughout his preprints rests upon
persistent failure to distinguish clearly between coordinate slopes and
physical velocity measured relative to some "very close" observer (e.g.,
defined by the unit timelike vector X = e_1 in an ONB, such as the
LeMaitre ONB).

(3) Mitra claims that the Kruskal-Szekeres chart has a coordinate
singularity at r = 2m; this absurd (and very incorrect) conclusion may
also be very quickly debunked: it is easy to write the K-S chart in closed
form, without the constraint (used in most textbooks) which confuses
Mitra, by using the "Lambert W function":

m^2 W[(R^2-T^2)/(2me)] [-dT^2 + dR^2]
ds^2 = -------------------------------------
(1 + W[(R^2-T^2)/(2me)]) (R^2-T^2)

+ 4m^2 (1 + W[(R^2-T^2)/(2me)])^2 (dU^2 + sin(U)^2 dV^2)

-1/e < (R^2-T^2)/(2me) < infty, 0 < U < pi, -pi < V < pi

Here, the Lambert W function is the holomorphic function defined by

z' = z exp(z) iff z = W(z')

We choose the -principal branch- of the W function, which is real valued
precisely where we need it to be, namely on the interval (-1/e,infty).
At the horizon (the locus R^2=T^2 in the KS chart), it is easy to check
that the line element given just above reduces to

ds^2 = 8m/e [-dT^2 + dR^2] + 4m^2 [dU^2 + sin(U)^2 dV^2]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

where the underlined part is the metric of an ordinary sphere of "radius"
2m. Thus, the K-S chart has no "coordinate singularity" at the event
horizon, contrary to Mitra's claim.

(4) Mitra claims that the Oppenheimer-Snyder collapsing dust ball model
can only yield a black hole with -zero mass-. This is of course absurd;
the OS model is carefully and correctly analyzed in many gtr textbooks,
for example

Hans Stephani,
General Relativity: An Introduction to the Theory of the
Gravitational Field, 2nd ed.
Cambridge University Press, 1990.
In print, ISBN 0-521-37941-5, $39.95 (paperback). One of Mitra's persistent confusions arises from an apparent inability to understand the matching employed in building the OS model (in which we match across the world sheet of a collapsing spherical surface from a dust ball which is a region of the collapsing FRW dust with E^3 hyperslices, to a exterior vacuum region, which is a region of the Schwarzschild vacuum). Mitra also appears to be completely ignorant of the well-known Vaidya null dust in which a collapsing spherical shell of massless radiation (Minkowski region vacuum inside the shell, incoherent massless radiation in the interior of the shell, Schwarzschild vacuum region outside the shell) collapses from scri^- to form a black hole; see The point is that no matching is required to construct or analyze this exact solution. The Vaidya null dust is briefly discussed in this review paper and is also extensively discussed here and in the monograph I. D. Novikov and V. P. Frolov, Black Hole Physics: Basic Concepts and New Developments, Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1998 In print, ISBN 0-79-235145-2; list price$98.00 (paperback)

(5) Mitra claims that "the proper time for the formation of any black
hole" (tellingly, he cannot clearly explain what he means by this claim)
is "infinite"; this is also absurd, under any sensible interpretation
(e.g. the proper time measured by an observer riding on the surface of
the OS collapsing dust ball), as every competent student of elementary gtr
knows. This issue is discussed at length in most gtr textbooks; a
particularly well illustrated discussion can be found in

Charles W. Misner, Kip S. Thorne, and John A. Wheeler,
Gravitation,
W. H. Freeman & Company, 1973.
In print, ISBN 0-7167-0344-0; list price $63.95 (paperback). (6) Mitra claims that the well-known "trapped surface" singularity theorem is -false-! The (correct) statement and proof can be found in Robert M. Wald, General Relativity, University of Chicago Press, 1984. In print, ISBN 0-226-87033-2; list price$34.00 (paperback).

Mitra has repeated the claims (1)-(6) in other preprints, and has made
still more incorrect claims, and he has not accepted correction of his
errors:

"Squark" commented (in s.p.research):

> I don't have the stength to go through this paper, but it sounds
> absurd to me:

Of course it is absurd!

> certainly reasonable solutions of the GR equation exist which describe
> gravitation collapse formation of non-charged black-holes. They
> actually claim the later cannot form! Has anyone read this?

In fact, it is only necessary to skim the abstracts of Mitra's preprints
on gtr to see that they all make ludicrous claims which anyone who has
worked through an elementary gtr textbook (e.g Schutz or Stephani) will
know right away are dead wrong.

However, some years ago I read in some detail an earlier draft of
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9910408 and it was quite frankly so riddled
with -elementary- misstatements and misconceptions concerning gtr as to be
not only worthless but frankly embarrassing. Mitra is terribly confused
about gtr, and so it is no surprise that it is usually impossible to be
sure exactly what he is trying to say at any given place in this preprint,
because a person who is thoroughly confused in his own mind cannot
possibly express himself clearly! Nonetheless, I believe that anyone who
reads the abstracts of his preprints posted to LANL will see that he
-does- make the claims I listed above.

It is very regrettable that this particular preprint (astro-ph/9910408)
was (shame! shame!) actually -published-:

Found. Phys. Lett. 13 (2000) 543

The irate abstract to an earlier draft of this preprint, unfortunately no
longer available on LANL (but I have a hard copy printout) stated that
Mitra was having a great deal of trouble with the referees; I cannot
understand why the editor apparently decided in the end to publish the
paper with all the misstatements of the original left untouched. The
published version is -shorter- than the original draft but it is no less
-erroneous-.

Chris Hillman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTE: Since I post under my real name, as an anti-spam measure, I have
installed a mail filter which deletes incoming messages not from the
"*.edu" or "*.gov" domains or overseas academic domains.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

### ueb

Aug 17, 2004, 5:19:24 PM8/17/04
to
John Baez wrote:
> In article <8o55fc...@Muse2.private.de>,
> ueb wrote:

>>LEJ Brouwer wrote:

>>> "Bill Hobba" wrote in message
>>> news:2RUQc.37008$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >>>>Interesting article. But I am always a little wary of what I read in the >>>>popular press. I think the evidence for the existence of something we call >>>>black holes is very strong. That they might not be exactly what people >>>>though is not quite the same thing as saying they do not exist. >>> Although the existence of black holes is now taken as fact by almost all >>> physicists, their foundations are actually on rather shaky ground, as anyone >>> who reads Abhas Mitra's recents carefully will come to realise. > That may be true if this "anyone" has never studied general relativity. > However, anyone who has will see that Mitra's work is based on some > serious misunderstandings of this subject, and is full of mistakes. > Black holes may or may not exist, but Mitra's work sheds no light on > this matter. In particular, his blunders have not been vindicated by > Hawking's new insights. It were good if you yourself could concretely point out Mitra's "mistakes", and what distinguishes "his blunders" from "Hawking's new insights". That would help even people, whom you believe to have "never studied general relativity", notice the "serious misunderstandings of this subject". > Ulrich Brucholz also wrote: >>Abhas Mitra has been attacked from Chris Hillman, whom John Baez has >>meanwhile dropped like a hot potato for his immaturity and childishness. >>I'm not convinced that such attack would mean a lot. > It actually does mean a lot, because while Hillman gets overly > upset about the mistakes of various crackpots, he knows general > relativity well and is good at spotting mistakes. If Hillman is as "good at spotting mistakes" like in his "arguments" against my proposal to go from the integration constants of the Einstein-Maxwell equations, then Mitra has nothing to fear. > I never "dropped" Chris Hillman, whatever that means. We're friends, > and I'm glad he is learning how to waste less time arguing with > people on the internet and more time thinking about interesting things. Nice for him. I have to thank you for clarifying. U. Bruchholz ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 18, 2004, 5:44:22 AM8/18/04 to "John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message news:cftjks$2cc$1...@glue.ucr.edu... > In article <f8cdd05c.04081...@posting.google.com>, > R. Srinivasan <srad...@in.ibm.com> wrote: > > Sure. See below. Dear John, It is really quite disappointing to see that the best you can do is to regurgitate the same nonsense which Chris Hillman spewed forth at an earlier date, and which was also responded to in some detail by Abhas Mitra himself. I have attached his response below, which is taken from the earlier discussion of this matter on this newsgroup. Given that you have taken the time to actually comment on this matter, I hope you will also have the dignity to stand by your claims and post a mathematical response. I am still in touch with Dr Mitra, and am sure he would be delighted to take part in intelligent and constructive discussion of the matter. > NONE. The errors lie with Mitra, not everyone else in the world. Despite your (as yet unsupported) claim, there is a growing number of respecting physicists who would disagree with you. According to Abhas Mitra, this includes Professor Vaidya himself, whom Chris Hillman mentioned in his post. > Here's some old discussion of Mitra's mistakes. I also wrote > my own analysis of his mistakes back when I had to reject some > of his articles on sci.physics.research, but it'd take a bunch > of work to find this now. I, Abhas Mitra, and I am sure many others would be very interested to see this supposed analysis of yours. Merely claiming that you made such an analysis without allowing others to see it is hardly satisfying or convincing. I personally do not believe that you have made a rigorous mathematical analysis of his work. Even if you had, what value does it have if it is not made available for scrutiny by third parties? Sincerely yours, Sabbir Rahman ............................................................................ . From: Abhas Mitra, ami...@apsara.barc.ernet.in Newsgroup: sci.physics.research, sci.physics.relativity Subject: Rejoinder to Hillman's posting entitled "Black Hole Preprints by Abhas Mitra" None of the various posting(s) made by Chris Hillman to this forum [can be said to be] a scientific critique of my preprints/reprints related to the non-occurrence of finite (gravitational) mass Schwarzschild Black Holes (BHs), for the following basic reasons: (i) It seems that he has not read my papers properly and has attributed or implied several aspects which are not contained in my papers. Neither does he appear to have made any sincere attempt to understand whatever portions he might have read. Some of the comments posted in this forum by others are also likely to have been based [solely] on reading of the abstract. [For example], someone [referred to as] "zirkus" wrote, "I have not looked at the following paper but, according to its abstract...". (ii) Most of my preprints are based on simple and exact analytical calculations (WITHOUT ever involving a single assumption or simplification) and associated equations. A meaningful critique of such works must point out the definitive errors/shortcomings in specific equations, quoting specific equation numbers. If there is a conceptual error, a meaningful critique must point out which specific equation is based on those conceptual errors, or else provide an interpretation of which equations have been [derived or used] incorrectly. But as one can see, Hillman has been unable to point out any such specific error. (iii) In the following, I shall show that whatever little analytical elements (non-numbered equations) there [happen to be] in the critique by Hillman, actually CORROBORATE the results of my preprints. 1. One of my previous preprints (gr-qc/9807197) tried to show that: If we follow the radial geodesic of a test particle around a BH using any coordinate system including Lemaitre coordinates (r, t, t=comoving time), the geodesic, which must be TIMELIKE (ds^2 >0) at any non-singular region of spacetime, would become null (ds^2=0) at the Event Horizon (EH) at R=R_g=2M. Hillman asserts that my derivation to this effect is incorrect because "Part of Mitra's confusion throughout his preprints rest upon persistent failure to distinguish clearly between coordinate slopes and physical velocity...". While he makes this accusation, note that he has NOT pointed out which EQUATION is based on such "confusion" and in turn, which specific result is incorrect because of such "confusion". He has unnecessarily introduced the "Painleve chart", and claims, WITHOUT ACTUALLY SHOWING IT, how the "Painleve Chart" disproves my result. For the benefit of the serious readers, I give below the essence of my proof: In Lemaitre coordinates, the radial geodesic (angular part=0), the metric of a test particle around a BH is ds^2 = dt^2 - g_rr dr^2 (1) where g_rr = [(3/2R_g) (r-t)]^{-2/3} (2) The invariant circumference coordinate R is related to r, t in the following way: R = [(3/2R_g) (r-t)]^{2/3} R_g (3) Thus at R=R_g (2M), [(3/2R_g)(r-t)]^{2/3} = 1 (4) Using Eq.(4) in Eq.(2), we find that, g_rr = 1 at R = R_g (5) Using Eq.(5) in Eq.(1), we have ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2 at R=R_g (6) Note that while he uses the symbol "r" for circumference coordinate, I am using "R" for the same; also while Hillman uses "m" for the gravitational mass of the BH, I use "M" for the same. We would require here a standard result: dR -(1-2M/R) --- = ---------- [E^2 -(1-2M/R)]^{1/2} (7) dT E where E is the conserved energy per unit rest mass of the test particle. Since t is the comoving time, we have dt = (1-2M/R)^{1/2} dT (8) Now by using the above equations, it can be found that, (dr/dt)^2 = 1 at R = R_g (9) Hillman also writes that "it is true that the coordinate slope equals to -1 here"; by 'here' he means at R=2M. To verify the correctness of Eq.(9), however, it would be better to see the Eq. 3.12.5, pp. 112 of Zeldovich and Novikov, Rel. Astrophysics, Vol. 1, Univ of Chicago (1971): (dr/dt) = +/- (R_g/R)^{1/2} (3.12.5) of ZN Note that the tau of ZN is our t, r of ZN is our R and vice-versa, and recall that we have taken c=G=1. By putting Eq.(9) in Eq.(6) one can find that INDEED ds^2 = 0 at R=R_g=2M following the radial geodesic. (10) If the EH R=R_g were a mere coordinate singularity and actually a regular region of spacetime, GTR demands that the geodesic must remain timelike there and we should have had ds^2 > 0. Thus Eq.(10) implies that the R=2M is NOT a non-singular region of spacetime. [Rather], it corresponds to a true physical singularity. But, for a BH, we know that the true physical singularity is at R=0. Therefore we can reconcile Eq.(10) with this knowledge by recognizing that we must have R = R_g = 2M = 0 (11) In other words, the mass of the BH must be M = 0 (12) Note that at no point in this proof do we mention "physical velocity" and neither is there any "confusion" between "coordinate slope" and "physical velocity". 2. In Sec 3 of his posting, Hillman writes that "Mitra claims that the Kruskal-Szekers chart has a coordinate singularity at R = 2M; this absurd (and very incorrect) conclusion..." Now the fact is that, I HAVE NEVER EVER MADE SUCH A CLAIM IN ANY OF MY PREPRINTS. On the other hand, I have pointed out, in several of my preprints, that even if one uses the Kruskal coordinates u and v, one would find that the EH is a true physical singularity. In other words, I have derived Eq.(10) using [these] coordinates. In fact, I have done so in a most straightforward manner using Schwarzschild coordinates too. For the benefit of the serious readers, I shall, again, give below the essence of my proof that (du/dv)^2 =1 at R=2M in this regard: In one of his earlier postings [webpages?] entitled "Hall of Shame", Hillman had ridiculed my work without even attempting to put up any scientific critique. All that he could say was to mention a preprint, (astro-ph/9905144), by I. Tereno which had scientifically, albeit erroneously, criticised my preprint. Nevertheless, here Hillman had conveniently forgotten to mention any of my REBUTTALs to Tereno's work: A. Mitra, astro-ph/9904163 and 9905329 Anyway let me proceed with my proof: From Eq.(7), it follows that, dR/dT = 0 at R=R_g=2M. And since dT is an infinitesimal quantity by definition (not to be confused with delta T, which could be finite or even infinite), we have dR = 0 at R=R_g=2M along a radial geodesic (13) The Kruskal coordinates obey, everywhere in the Kruskal diagram, the equation u^2 - v^2 = (R/2M -1) exp (R/2M) (14) so that, u^2 = v^2, (v/u)^2 = 1 at R=2M (15) Now differetiating Eq.(14) w.r.t. R, and using Eq.(13) on the LHS, it follows that u du - v dv = 0 at R=2M (16) Or, (du/dv)^2 = (v/u)^2 at R=2M (17) Invoking Eq.(15) in Eq.(17), we see that du^2 = dv^2 at R=2M (18) Now for a radial geodesic, it can be seen that the Kruskal metric at R=2M is: ds^2 = (16M^2/e) (du^2 - dv^2) (19) Invoke Eq.(18) here and obtain ds^2 = 0 at R=2M along a radial geodesic (20) Again note that this proof neither involved any mention of "physical velocity'' or any associated "confusion". Hillman unnecessarily and irrelevantly invokes the "Lambert W function" without showing how the W function or any other function would actually disprove my Eqs. 13-20. Here Hillman has used two variables "R" and "T" without even mentioning what they are (note that I use R and T for Sch. coordinates); presumably they are proportional to our u and v. For the radial part of the metric, Hillman too finds, through a convoluted route using the "Lambert W function" that at the EH ds^2 = (8m/e) (-dT^2 + d R^2) , R and T not defined by Hillman. By comparing with Eq.(19), it seems that R= 2m u and T =2m v (at least at the horizon). Then, we would have (dR/dT)^2 =1 at the EH, and Hillman's Eq. too would give ds^2=0 at the EH. As explained earlier, this would mean that the mass of the BH, M=0. 3. Since Hillman has been unable to point out any real error in any of my preprints, he goes on citing one standard book after another (without showing how those books actually negate my precise derivations). If at any given point of time, the existing scientific literature and interpretation of laws of Nature were the ultimate without leaving scope for new analysis and interpretations, there would not have been any scientific or intellectual progress, and, intellectually, we would have continued to be like the prehistoric cavemen. My criticism of the Oppenheimer-Snyder paper is based on the fact Eq.(36) of it overlooked the fact that the ARGUMENT OF A LOG FUNCTION CANNOT BE NEGATIVE. This statement cannot be negated by citing books and pouring forth ridicules. And this statement demands that during the collapse of the dust-ball, we must have 2M/R < = 1 (21) This mathematical result means that TRAPPED SURFACES DO NOT FORM in the O-S dust collapse. As I have shown (astro-ph/9904163, 9910408), unless Eq.(21) is incorporated into the O-S analysis, the behaviour of the metric coefficients would be inconsistent and unphysical at R=0. Here Hillman makes mention of the "Vaidya null-dust" without knowing that Prof. P.C. Vaidya himself has found my work to be completely correct. 4. Hillman writes that "Mitra claims that the well-known 'trapped surface' singularity theorem is false! The correct statement and proof can be found in.." Firstly, I never mentioned "trapped surfaces" as singularities. [Secondly,] it appears that Hillman is unaware of the fact that the well-known singularity theorems are based on several ASSUMPTIONS. The most crucial assumption here is that there is a "trapped surface" in the spacetime. Now when, by definition, existence of "trapped surfaces" is an ASSUMPTION how can any book PROVE the existence of trapped surfaces? On the other hand, I have actually proved, in a general manner, for spherical collapse of baryonic matter, that trapped surfaces do not form at all. In other words, I have shown that the crucial assumption behind the singularity theorems is incorrect (for collapse of isolated bodies). And since the essence of my proof is so straightforward, for the serious readers, I present it below: All spherical collapse involving baryonic matter and radiation obey (see ref. in my paper) a relation Gamma^2 = 1 + U^2 - 2M/R (22) where Gamma = dR/dl (23) and dl is an element of proper length along the radial worldline of the collapsing fluid. Also, U = dR/d tau (24) where d tau is an element of proper time following the fluid element. Clearly, Eqs.(23) and (24) are correlated as U = Gamma V (25) where V = dl/d tau (26) and let us treat V as a pure symbol. By putting Eq.(25) in Eq.(22) and by transposing, we have Gamma^2 (1- V^2) = 1 - 2M/R (27) Now by using the result that the determinant involving the metric coeff. of any metric must be negative, I have shown that, if (1-V^2) is negative, then so must be Gamma^2, so that the LHS of Eq.(27) is always positive. Then it follows that 2M/R < = 1 (28) a result obtained independently from the O-S work. Eq.(28) shows that, if the fluid [were to] collapse to a singularity at R=0, under positivity of mass, one must have M-->0 as R-->0 (29) 5. The preprint astro-ph/9910408 was published in Foundation of Physics Letters and this has obviously greatly disappointed Hillman and others. If they are so sure that it is all wrong, I would suggest that they submit an academic critique of my paper to Foundations or any other standard refereed journal. This paper was published in Foundations after several referees failed to point out any specific errors in my work, after some referees found that the work is "mathematically" correct, and eventually after two anonymous referees recommended its publication with some revisions. This is hardly a "very regrettable" or "shame shame" procedure. 6. Hillman's posting started with criticism of my work hep-th/9905182. In this work I never claimed that non-extremal BHs with mass M>Q (charge) are not exact GTR solutions, as implied by Hillman. In fact they are as exact solutions as the Schwarzschild BHs. But if one starts with a M>Q case and slowly reduces Q to Q=0, one should recover the Sch. BH. In such a case, one would obtain a finite mass M>0 BH. But since I have already shown, by several independent modes, that the only allowed value of M is 0, eventually, it is [only] the extremal BHs with M=Q solutions which are to be accepted because they lead to the correct result M=0 when Q=0. I invite Hillman and all other readers to write a proper scientific critique pointing out specific errors in my equations and interpretations in case any of them think that my work is erroneous. Incidentally, through email, I have repeatedly requested Profs. S. Hawking. R. Penrose, K.Thorne, C.W. Misner and many others to send their critique, if any, to me. But none of them have acted so far. ### Bruce Pew unread, Aug 18, 2004, 3:55:14 PM8/18/04 to "LEJ Brouwer" <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2ogmqfF...@uni-berlin.de>... As a member of the group 'many others' I would like to know how Mitra's prediction that black holes don't theoretically exist, within the context of general relativity, is vindicated by the comments of Professor Hawking relating to information loss? ### ueb unread, Aug 18, 2004, 7:10:16 PM8/18/04 to To John Baez: I can only wonder, what impertinent manner you declare yourself for, that Hillman favours in scientific argument. I experienced that Hillman unscrupulously insinuated that I did absurde claims (which I never did), in order to ridicule my proposal to go from the integration constants of the Einstein-Maxwell equations (i.e. seeing the world as single electrovacuum). As well, he always ignored the _results_ from numerical simulations according to these tensor equations, which obviously disturbed him (and other persons too). I see that Hillman deals with colleagues apparently in the same manner. U. Bruchholz ### John Baez unread, Aug 19, 2004, 1:54:37 PM8/19/04 to In article <2ogmqfF...@uni-berlin.de>, LEJ Brouwer <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote: >"John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message >news:cftjks$2cc1...@glue.ucr.edu... >Dear John, > >It is really quite disappointing to see that the best you can do is to >regurgitate the same nonsense which Chris Hillman spewed forth at an earlier >date, and which was also responded to in some detail by Abhas Mitra himself. >I have attached his response below, which is taken from the earlier >discussion of this matter on this newsgroup. Given that you have taken the >time to actually comment on this matter, I hope you will also have the >dignity to stand by your claims and post a mathematical response. Dignity, eh? If I had any "dignity" I wouldn't be posting here. But, it's a lazy summer afternoon, so I guess I'll pass the time by finding the mistake in this passage by Mitra where he claims to "prove" that any black hole has mass zero. The funny part is that he's trying to do this using only general relativity! Starting from the solution which describes a black hole of mass m, he attempts by a calculation to show that m = 0. It's a bit like taking an arbitrary prime number and proving that it must equal 37. In an earlier version of his "proof", Mitra's mistake was simple to spot, since he was using the familiar Schwarzschild coordinates, and the mistake involved dividing by zero. Now he has made his argument more complicated by using the less familiar "LeMaitre coordinates". Luckily, to spot the flaw, all you need to know is that these are coordinates (r,t) in which someone freely falling into the black hole stays at constant r as t increases. (They're vaguely similar to spherical coordinates, and I'm ignoring the two angular coordinates since they're irrelevant in what we're doing.) Okay, here goes: >For the benefit of the >serious readers, I give below the essence of my proof: > >In Lemaitre coordinates, the radial geodesic (angular part=0), the metric >of a test particle around a BH is > > ds^2 = dt^2 - g_rr dr^2 (1) I got a bit suspicious right here, since the phrase "the metric of a test particle" makes no sense. The metric is something on spacetime, and it applies to all particles moving in spacetime, so one never speaks of the metric "of a test particle". But, it turned out this was only tangential to the main problem. He's describing the metric for a nonrotating black hole in LeMaitre coordinates... >where > > g_rr = [(3/2R_g) (r-t)]^{-2/3} (2) ... and I think he's got it right, though I wouldn't vouch for all the numbers. >The invariant circumference coordinate R is related to r, t in the following >way: > > R = [(3/2R_g) (r-t)]^{2/3} R_g (3) I think this so-called "invariant circumference coordinate" is just the usual radial coordinate R in Schwarzschild coordinates. R_g is just the number 2M. >Thus at R=R_g (2M), > > [(3/2R_g)(r-t)]^{2/3} = 1 (4) > >Using Eq.(4) in Eq.(2), we find that, > > g_rr = 1 at R = R_g (5) All this looks fine - or at least I don't think this is where the real *problem* lies. >Using Eq.(5) in Eq.(1), we have > > ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2 at R=R_g (6) I think this is okay too. At this point, it's best to skip down to the final "result" and then work backwards.... Somehow M = 0 has popped out. It's popped out because in equation (10) he gets ds^2 = 0 at R = 2M, "following the radial geodesic". He's not very clear about that means, but interpreting him generously I'd say he's concluding the change in proper time vanishes for a test particle freely falling into a black hole as it crosses the horizon. This would indeed be a contradition since general relativity "demands that the geodesic must remain timelike there and we should have had ds^2 > 0." So, his mistake may lie in his derivation of ds^2 = 0. Where does this come from? He says it comes from ds^2 = dt^2 - dr^2 at R=R_g (6) and (dr/dt)^2 = 1 at R = R_g (9) I've already said I see no flaw in (6) so probably the flaw is in (9). And indeed, (9) is false for a test particle freely falling into the black hole: in LeMaitre coordinates, r is constant for such a particle, so dr = 0 contradicting (9). The rest is a mopping-up operation: to see how Mitra gets ahold of the false equation saying that (dr/dt)^2 = 1. He gets it by saying "Now by using the above equations, it can be found that..." where the above equations include these: dR -(1-2M/R) --- = ---------- [E^2 -(1-2M/R)]^{1/2} (7) dT E dt = (1-2M/R)^{1/2} dT (8) But you'll notice he's applying them to the case where R = R_g = 2M. In this case they say: dR/dT = 0 dt = 0 So, he's dividing by zero if he wants to use these to compute dr/dt! I still don't see how he's trying to get (dr/dt)^2 = 1, since he doesn't exhibit his reasoning - he just says "it can be found". But, I see that it's false, and I see that he's dividing by zero in his steps towards this. So much for his "proof". In a way, it's just a more complicated version of his argument that got rejected on sci.physics.research. When push comes to shove, Mitra divides by zero. ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 19, 2004, 6:32:18 PM8/19/04 to The following is Abhas Mitra's response to John Baez's remarks. I have left it complete and unedited at his request. - Sabbir ----------------- Although John Baez claims that Mitra's argument involves ..mistakes'', howsoever reputed he may be, at least personally, has not mentioned of a single mistake. Instead he has relied on his front man Chris Hillman. If it were a question of addressing merely John Baez and his front man, I would not have wasted my time because I know that, at least in this case, their sole intention is maligning me by misusing the internet. This is so because when 4 years back, Hillman's original comments (not what Baez has fallen back to here) were brought to my notice (which were just ridicule, distortion of facts, calumny), I sent a detailed rebuttal. But that forum was controlled by Baez and Hillman theselves and refused to publish my rebuttal which shows the dictatorial and unscientific attitude of this duo. However here I am essentially adressing the other readers of this forum many of whom I believe has an open academic mind. 1. Baez says that GR is a mathematically rigorous theory''. And I claim that my work is also mathematically, WITHOUT ANY SIMPLIFICATION OR ASSUMPTION, in the framework of GR. And this is what has been accepted by the Editors and referees of Foundations of Physics Letter. So if Baez and Hillman really wanted to make a scientific critique, they could have picked up my Eqs. by citing their nos. and by precisely pointing out the supposed errors in them. It is very common to find such critiques in all journals including PRL, Science. It is also very common to see such scientific critiques in Los Alamos archives. When one is capable of making such scientific critique (which is a healthy practice), one need not and would not launch vituperate the author(s) in person (as was done in Hillman's original piece entitled Hall of Shame'' with the backing of Baez. And only when one cannot scientifically pinpoint the errors by actually referring to the equations of the targeted paper, one need to beat about the bush or various red herrings and present some confusing element to misguide the readers. For example, they mention of Painleve Chart'' and computing the magnitude of the tangent vectors. They forget that, none of such charts do not come directly from GR equations, they are MENTAL PICTURES drawn by extrapolating some GR solutions. In this, this Chart is based on the existence of mathematical BH solution assuming its massm'' to be finite. And the magnitude of the tangent vector obtained by such chart would depend on the value of m'', and such a treatment cannot determine whether the PHYSICALLY ALLOWED value of m is m=0. The tangent vector would be of zero magnitude whenm=0$. Essentially what I have shown rigorously is that if any test particle would approach the Event Horizon, ds^2 --> 0 (1) in violation of GR because we must have ds^2 >0 for a material particle at least in a region which is not a physical singularity. So what they should have shown is that derivation leading to Eq(1) is faulty by referring to my precise steps. They could not do this because Eq(1) IS CORRECT. Implication of Eq.(1) is that the EH at R=R_g = 2M/R (2) must be a physical singularity and NOT A MERE COORDINATE SINGULARITY. But the physical singularity lies at R=0 (3) Then combining Eqs. 1 & 2, it would follow that Even if the Sch solution is a mathematically correct solution showing existence of BHs, in order that ds^2 >0 at R>0, the only PHYSICALLY allowed value of BH mass is M=0 (4) And then, Pl. Chart too would give a magnitude of tangent vector =0. 2. Another example: It seems that Baez and his friends never read my paper carefully because I NEVER claimed that Krus-Sz chart has a coordinate singularity at r=2m''. FALSE FALSE On the other hand, I insisted that r=2m is a TRUE PHYSICAL singularity. This is so because again K-S coordinate I showed that ds^2 --> 0 as r--> 2m (5) 3. There are solid physical reasons too behind Eq.(1) or (5) As Stan Robertson (Univ South Okalohoma) and Darryl Leiter, (see their astro-ph papers) and I have shown a test particle approaching r-->2m will have local 3-speed v-->c (as measured by any coordinate system) in violation of GR. If you consider even Sp Rel, in 1-D motion, ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 - dx^2 (6) or, ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 ( 1 -v^2/c^2) (7) And, ds^2 -> 0 if v--> c and vice-versa (8) This is also valid in GR. Further, if one would drop a test particle, one can form an ACCELERATION SCALAR (AS), out the 4-acceleration, and it is found that AS = M/[R^2sqrt(1-2M/R)] (9) so that as r-->2m, AS BLOWS up. But AS is a physically measurable quantity, and thus r-2m must be the true singularity as concluded earlier. Also if there would be a spacetime beneath r = 2m, AS would become IMAGINARY! This would tantamount to v>c, which would happen if there would be spacetime beneath r=2m. 4. The central part of my work was to show that if a a trapped surface'' would form the speed of the collapsing fluid v >c, and hence there cannot be any trapped surface. It is these assumption of trapped surfaces'' which is the mother of all singularity theorems and finite mass BHs. Those readers who are genuinely interested to unravel the truth may kindly see my recent posting astro-ph/0408323 which is a much shorter and simpler proof. 4. My proof that at the EH, material particle would behave like photon (ds^2=0) have been independently verified by [1] Does principle of equivalence prevent trapped surfaces from being formed in general relativistic collapse process', Leiter, D. & Robertson, S., Foun. Phys. Lett. 16, 143 (2003) (astro-ph/0111421). 5. My prediction was that the so-called BH candidates are actually hot compact objects supported by radiation and magnetic pressure has also been verified observationally: [2] Evidence for intrinsic magnetic moment in black hole candidates', Robertson, S. & Leiter, D. Astrophys. J. 565, 447 (2002) (astro-ph/0102381). [3] On the intrinsic magnetic moment in black hole candidates', Robertson, S. & Leiter, D., Astrophys. J. 569, L203 (2003) (astro-ph/0310078). [4] On the origin of the radio/X-ray luminosity correlation in black hole candidates', Robertson, S. & Leiter, D., Mon. Not. Roy. Astr. Soc. 350, 1391 (2004) (astro-ph/0402445). Do Baez and his company think that the Editors and referees of Astrophys. J, Astrophys J. Letter and Mon. Not. Roy Astr. Soc (London) are plain fools to publish papers confirming my prediction? Whether Baez likes it or not, as a rare event for Indian Sc., my concept of Eternally Collapsing Object has also been briefly discussed in a recent POPULAR book: Discovery of Cosmic Fractals'' by Y. Baryshev, St. Petersburg Univ, Russia & P. Teerikorpi, Univ of Turku, Finland (World Scientific, 1993). Incidentally, as far as Indian authors are concerned, this book dwells upon 3 Indians: 1. S. Chandrasekhar 2. J. V. Narlikar 3. Abhas Mitra although this is not to tell that there are not other important Indian astronomers. 5. Extremal BH: Again here my work/contention has been distorted: When I say that GR allows only extremal BHs with Q=M it is not because that I am not familiar with Res-Nor solution. On the other hand, it is because of the following reasons: I have already shown that, in the chargeless case M=0 And for charged BHs, since Q <= M, only value of Q which is possible is Q=M =0 And technically Q=M is an Extremal BH. 6. Hillman has tried to show that I am an academic riff-raff to prejudice the mind of the readers. Thus though this is no place to flaunt my CV, I would point out few things to the readers to show how Hillman distorted things: I am from BARC's training school which has been the hatchery of many top Indian Physicists. In BARC, I started theoretical astrophysics research, my Ph.D. thesis is entitled A NEW theory of Ultra High Energy Gamma Ray Production in Cygnus X-3'' and a paper based on this earned me best young physicist award from Indian Physical Soc in 1989. Even now only paper on Theory of Gamma Ray Bursts, published in Astrop. J, happens to be mine. I have worked as a referee of Astrophys. J, ApJ Letter, Found Phys Lett and other journal. I have had several offers to work at various labs (most notable of which was with Prof (Sir) Martin Rees), bust I did not/could not avail most of these offers because of various reasons. Last year, out of steep international competetion, and after very rigorous screen, I qualified for NRC (USA) SENIOR REASEACH ASSOCIATE position at NASA, Goddard.Most likely because of security reasons, I was not given final clearance even though I was genuinely intersted in this case. HAWKING CONNECTION 7. My work is not specific to Hawking or any body else. However I did mention that since there is no FINITE mass BH, no EH, there is no trapping of Q. And there is no Information Paradox at all. I also insisted that there is NO WHITE HOLE, NO WORM HOLE, NO TIME MACHINE My Found. Phys. paper was featured in NewsIndia published by Nature(London). By seeing Hawking's U-turn, the Nature reporter recently contacted me again, it turned out that (i) Hawking's abstract says Information can come out because there is no TRUE HORIZON (ii) As appeared in Nature.com and Newscientist.com and as explained by Garry Gibbon, Hawking's Cambridge coworker a. Hawkings BHs (now) do not have exact horizon b. There is no BH in the absolute sense c. It keeps on emitting light and information for a very long time.. All such bottom lines, irrespective of how Hawking or Gibbons obtain their results, do tend to match with the description of final stages of massive collapse obtained in my paper: The collapsing object asymtotically tries to achieve a BH stage, but since there is no EH, it keeps on radiating indefinitely and tends to be a M=0 BH. About Hawking radition, I mentioned that Gamma Ray Astronomers (I am one of them) have been trying to detect predicted signatures of primordial BH evaporation for last 25 years. But they have found none. And I wrote And we can predict with absolute certainty that no such events would ever be detected because GR does not allow formation/existence of finite mass BHs'' (FPL, 15(5), 439 (2002). And I stand by it. -Abhas Mitra Abhas Mitra : E-mail: ami...@apsara.barc.ernet.in Nuclear Research Lab : Tel: 91-22-25579093 (Res) Bhabha Atomic Research Centre : 91-22-25595186 (Office) Mumbai-400085, India : Fax: 91-22-25505151 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message news:cftjks$2cc$1...@glue.ucr.edu... [Hillman's stuff deleted] ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 19, 2004, 7:42:28 PM8/19/04 to "John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message news:cg2pgt$kbt$1...@glue.ucr.edu... > In article <2ogmqfF...@uni-berlin.de>, > LEJ Brouwer <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >"John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message > >news:cftjks$2cc$1...@glue.ucr.edu... > > >Dear John, > > > >It is really quite disappointing to see that the best you can do is to > >regurgitate the same nonsense which Chris Hillman spewed forth at an earlier > >date, and which was also responded to in some detail by Abhas Mitra himself. > >I have attached his response below, which is taken from the earlier > >discussion of this matter on this newsgroup. Given that you have taken the > >time to actually comment on this matter, I hope you will also have the > >dignity to stand by your claims and post a mathematical response. > > Dignity, eh? If I had any "dignity" I wouldn't be posting here. I have forwarded this message to Abhas Mitra, and I am sure he will grace you with a detailed response to it in due course. In the meantime, I have a few remarks to make of my own. It is curious that you should mention your lack of dignity. You certainly displayed none whatsoever in your past contributions to this discussion, and you seem to be quite determined to reinforce that impression we have of you here. Neither does it appear that you particularly care. The overall impression one gets is that you consider the sci.physics.research newsgroup to be your little playground where you can proudly display to the rest of the world your immense intellectual superiority and encyclopaedic knowledge. On the other hand, the sci.physics.relativity newsgroup is where you like to demonstrate that all of this apparent brilliance is really just a facade and that, deep down, you are an immature, pompous, simple-minded twit. Just for the record, this was the sum total of your contributions the last time this matter was discussed: "My spies brought this article to my attention. Be careful, Vergon. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean we're not out to get you." Inspiring words indeed from such a great beacon of knowledge. And lest you forget, the reason you are posting on this newsgroup rather than sci.physics.research because YOU, as moderator, REFUSED to allow the discussion to take place on sci.physics.research. I hope you realise how moronic your above comment is given this context. > But, it's a lazy summer afternoon, so I guess I'll pass the > time by finding the mistake in this passage by Mitra where > he claims to "prove" that any black hole has mass zero. While I am sure Abhas Mitra will take great pleasure in taking apart your analysis in some detail, you should probably be made aware (assuming that you are not aware of this already) that your analysis DOES NOT EVEN COME CLOSE to proving that Mitra's results are wrong. As I mentioned before, I do not believe me that you have made a rigorous mathematical analysis of his work. On the basis of your rather dubious writings below, I am now CERTAIN that this is indeed the case. Indeed, if this group had been moderated by a like-minded simpleton, your analysis would probably have been rudely rejected as overly speculative' without further explanation, and you would have been openly ridiculed without right of reply. - Sabbir. ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 20, 2004, 6:13:28 AM8/20/04 to This is forwarded on Abhas Mitra's behalf. - Sabbir ------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Oppenheimer - Snyder Paper in the Light of Mitra's Work The Oppenheimer-Snyder paper is a great exercise in applied mathematics where the intractable Einstein collapse equations were solved, in the spherically symmetric case, for the first time by assuming that the fluid is homogeneneous. In fact as of now, this may be the only truly EXACT solution of collapse equations because general inhomogeneous cases are still intractable though there may be special premeditated solutions. However, this great applied mathematics feat was achieved by paying a heavy price on the physics front. Because OS assumed that the pressure of the fluid is ZERO and it is so even when the fluid is supposed to have collapsed to a point singularity (which is supposed to have INFINITE density)! When physics is honoured and restored, a p=0 Eq. of State is possible only when density d=0. Then the mass of the fluid, (IF WE HONOUR PHYSICS) would be M= 4/3 pi R^2 d =0 Thus the OS BH too has the mass M=0 as insisted by Mitra (the same is true of all Naked Singularities resulting from inhomogeneous Dust Collapse). The PROPER TIME of formation of the BH as obtained by OS is tau propto M^{-1/2} Whem M=0, we have tau = INFINITY which means, the collapse actually continues indefinitely and in reality no BH (even of M=0) is ever produced. This is in exact agreement with Mitra's work. However confusion would arise when physics is dissociated from the problem, i.e, when it would be assumed that despite having p=0, d=finite! Further as repeatedly pointed out, in order that the argument of a log function is non-negative, the Eq.(36) of OS paper demands y <= 1 (1) which when properly analysized would lead to 2M(r)/R <=1 (2) i.e. ABSENCE OF TRAPPED SURFACE (Mitra, FPL, 13(6), 543, 2000, astro-ph/9910408) Mitra's work, however, would APPEAR in conflict with the OS solution only when one would ignore the physical fact that p=0 is possible only when d=0. 2. PROPER TIME One of the members of the Baez-Band has alleged that I have no idea of what proper time is. All students, workers, Editors, referees concerned with GR knows that if in the problem there is a moving particle/fluid the term proper time'' means the proper time measured by moving observer unless it is specifically meant to be the proper time of a distant observer. I am sure Baez too knows this, yet he, gleefully, allowed his formum to be littered with such trivial meaningless personal attacks without any moderation. 3. SCHWARZSCHILD SINGULARITY For all those members of this forum who are genuinely interested in scientific debate and not personal malice, let me point out that the fact that the r=2m singularity is a true PHYSICAL singularity (essentially because SCALAR ACCELERATION blows up) has been very scholarly brought out in these papers: [1] Gravitational Singularities via Acceleration: the case of the Sch. Solution and Bach's Metric S. Antoci & D.E. Liebscher Astron. Natchr, 324, 485 (2003) gr-qc/0107087 [2] Reinstaing Sch's original manifold and its singularity S. Antoci & D.E. Liebscher in Progress in GR and Q Grav Research'', Nova Science Pub. (NY), in press gr-qc/0406090 Historically, the problems with the r=2m singularity was first pointed out by L.S. Abrams in [3] Alternative Spacetime for the Point Mass Phys. Rev. D20, 2474 (1979) [4] Black Holes: The Legacy of Hilbert's Error'' L.S. Abrams, Can. J. Phys. 67, 919 (1989) gr-qc/0102055 and the following insightful article by L.S. Abrams would corroborate my contention about charged BHs, that physically only charged BH that is allowed is q=m=0 (3) In other words, there is no charged BH and the point charges are not BHs: The Total Spacetime of a Point Charge and its consequences ..'' Int. J. Theor. Phys., 35, 2261-2677 (1996) Now will the Baez-Band direct their howling at Antoci, Liebscher and Abrams too. Probably no. They would simply feign to be ignorant of such developments and continue to be the frogs in the dark well or at best put up some hotch-potch of jargons and irrelevant maths to confuse and mislead the readers. Personally, I am not member of any of these internet clubs/groups and neither do I ever follow the discussions there. Yet I am posting these materials at the request of my friends who are pained to see personal attacks on me. Having done these postings, however, I will not follow any thread, and on the other hand I FOCUS ATTENTION ONLY ON MATERIALS PUBLISHED IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS and LANL ELECTRONIC ARCHIVE Thus, in future, I would not respond to any comments, positive or negative appearing in these fora. In case any body is seriously interested in learning about my work can go through them and those who want to make critique (it is always possible that I make a genuine mistake) are always free to do so by using the channel of the journals and not by howling or hooting. Recall that the claim that the Sun rather than the Earth is at the center of the solar system appeared ABSURD'' to many. More recently, when Chandrasekhar showed that White Dwarfs have an upper mass limit too appeared Absurd'' to many, particularly to reigning pundits. Had there been internet groups those days, Baez-Band equivalents would have been busy castigating such absurd'' researches. In fact there are many unregistered members of Baez Band in India both inside my organization and in other scientific institutes of India. Baez would be happy to get their census report. 4. Finally I shall cite a VERY IMPORTANT ref: G. Neugebauer in GR (Eds. G.S. Hall & J.R. Pulham, SUSSP, Edinburg & IOP, London, 1996) (See p. 73) Probably the most direct derivation of metric for Spinning BHs, the so-called Boyer-Lindquist metric, is done using Backlund transformation. Also recall that Sch. BHs can be considered as a special case of rotating BHs with the rotation parameter a=0. (4) Now when one derives the Boyer-Lindquist metric by Backlund transformation, one would find that m and a are related through a= m sin phi (5) where phi is the azimuth angle. CAREFULLY NOTE that since both a and m are constants while phi is a VARIABLE, this Eq. can be satisfied IFF a=m=0 (6) which shows again that BHs have unique mass m=0 (7) which is possible when during the preceding collapse 2m/R < 1 (8) i.e, when no trapped surfaces form as shown by me. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE; not that we care Eq. (6) also shows that the m=0 BHs cannot rotate (a=0). This means that all the observed BH Candidates are not BHs, they could be Eternally Collapsing Objects, supported by magnetic and radiation pressure. Innumerable media reports claiming Detection of BHs'' actually mean detection of massive compact objects. The exclusive hall mark of a BH is EVENT HORIZON and which has never been detected: NO OBSERVATIONAL PROOF OF BLACK HOLE EVENT HORIZON'' M.A. Abramowicz, W. Kluzniak, & J-P Lasota Astron. Astrophys. 396, L31 (2002) astro-ph/0207270 ### John Baez unread, Aug 20, 2004, 2:12:32 PM8/20/04 to In article <sostfc...@Muse2.private.de>, ueb <Ulrich.B...@t-online.de> wrote: >It were good if you yourself could concretely point out Mitra's >"mistakes", I did, in a separate post. > and what distinguishes "his blunders" from "Hawking's >new insights". Hawking claims that he can use Euclidean quantum gravity methods to show there is no information loss when a black hole forms and then evaporates. He hasn't published a paper about this yet, so all we have to go on is his talk, but I've attempted to figure out what he was saying here: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week207.html Mitra's main argument has nothing to do with quantum gravity. It's based on general relativity. He claims that the worldline of a freely falling massive particle becomes null as it crosses the event horizon of a Schwarzschild black hole. This would be a problem if it were true - it would contradict basic facts about general relativity. However, anyone who has studied GR knows it's false. His argument relies on dividing by zero, as I explained in a recent post to this group: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=cg2pgt%24kbt%241%40glue.ucr.edu Another difference between Hawking and Mitra is that Hawking doesn't post articles to sci.physics.relativity full of ALL CAPITALIZED WORDS. ### John Baez unread, Aug 20, 2004, 2:27:17 PM8/20/04 to In article <2om190F...@uni-berlin.de>, LEJ Brouwer <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote: >In fact there are many unregistered >members of Baez Band in India both inside my organization and in other >scientific institutes of India. Baez would be happy to get their census >report. Actually I wish all these unregistered members would register and pay their annual Baez Band membership fees! Please tell them to register at this website: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/Baez.Band ### Bruce Pew unread, Aug 20, 2004, 4:02:05 PM8/20/04 to "LEJ Brouwer" <intuit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2om190F...@uni-berlin.de>... > This is forwarded on Abhas Mitra's behalf. > > - Sabbir I would conclude that you are Abhas Mitra's alter ego [actually you are Abhas Mitra]. The one that does post in science newsgroups and the one who is allowed to make ridiculous claims such as Hawking's comments at GR17 somehow proof that the singularity theorems are incorrect. Your comments insinuating that Hawking plagiarized Mitra are reprehensible and also proof you don't have a clue what Hawking was getting at in his talk. ### LEJ Brouwer unread, Aug 20, 2004, 4:20:09 PM8/20/04 to "John Baez" <ba...@galaxy.ucr.edu> wrote in message news:cg5fq5$3k6\$1...@glue.ucr.edu...

the necessary minimum qualifications, namely being:

(a) clever, but not quite as clever as we would like people to think we are,
(b) under the delusional belief that people somehow give a damn about what
we have been reading or thinking about over the past week, or which
conferences we may have attended,
(c) self-centred enough to actually produce a weekly digest which proves
beyond all reasonable doubt that both (a) and (b) are true?

And once we have paid our dues, will you personally be giving all Baez
Band' members advanced lessons in intellectual masturbation, and on how to
achieve elevated states of egotistical self-glorification? Do the membership
fees include a Baez-endorsed license to be obnoxious and condescending
towards others - even when those we insult are more respectable than
ourselves? As Baez Band members, will we be given the authority to make
fools of ourselves on unmoderated public newsgroups safe in the knowledge
that the Band's dictatorial control over the moderated newsgroups will
continue to be used to artificially enhance our status? Will you be teaching
us elementary calculus?

By the way, I met Albert Einstein at Madame Tussaud's just the other day.
And do you know what he told me? Well, he told me that black holes really do
not exist and to be very wary of the `Baez Band' who were a closed-minded
and self-deluded bunch of pseudo-scientific hypocrites who would use all
manner of guile and deception to prevent the truth from coming out and to
protect the establishment view (and their reputations). As it happens,
Albert also mentioned in passing that the cosmological constant problem had
a purely classical solution, though unfortunately he did not elaborate
further on that. I will try to remember to ask him about that again next
time I see him.

- Sabbir.