Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.

Dismiss

1,059 views

Skip to first unread message

Dec 15, 2019, 10:08:21 PM12/15/19

to

I have truly enjoyed reading Mr. Finlayson’s posts to this forum. He certainly lives up to his boast “I consider myself a pro-relativist, as a means”. He has a command of the subject matter that is unmatched in this forum; which is quite obvious from the hands-off attitude that Dono, Bodkin, et al have adopted towards him. He documents well and writes even weller. He slings the Latin better than any previous Latin slinger. His paraconsistent logic is para-flawless. And he loves to hate on the muons as much as I. But this new man Finlayson has come too far, too fast for my tastes. As astonishing an admission as it might seem, I believe him to be threatening my primacy as the top relativity slayer around these parts.

Therefore, in order to re-establish my title (or to finally lose it once and for all) I do hereby challenge Mr. Ross A. Finlayson to a dual as to which of us can devise the most outrageous and hilarious reductio ad absurdum argument against Relativity, Special or General.

Do you accept sir?

(I hereby select Mitch as my second.)

Therefore, in order to re-establish my title (or to finally lose it once and for all) I do hereby challenge Mr. Ross A. Finlayson to a dual as to which of us can devise the most outrageous and hilarious reductio ad absurdum argument against Relativity, Special or General.

Do you accept sir?

(I hereby select Mitch as my second.)

Dec 15, 2019, 10:30:39 PM12/15/19

to

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

> I do hereby challenge Mr. Ross A. Finlayson to a dual

"dual"? Imbecile
> I do hereby challenge Mr. Ross A. Finlayson to a dual

Dec 15, 2019, 10:31:46 PM12/15/19

to

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

Dec 15, 2019, 10:35:23 PM12/15/19

to

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

If you'd allow me to humbly concede,

my study is mathematics with physics second.

Dec 15, 2019, 10:54:14 PM12/15/19

to

I will spend the evening considering whether or not to let you go (this time). But I demand a price: can you devise and argument, method, tensor operation or combination of tensor operations that reduces the space-time curvature in the vicinity of the sun (and so reduces the (we are told illusion of) gravity) as a function of an observer's relative velocity wrt the sun?

Otherwise, Mitch and I await you at dawn on the field of honor.

Dec 16, 2019, 12:06:33 AM12/16/19

to

https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909087

"Although gravity propagates at the speed of light

in general relativity, the expected aberration is

almost exactly canceled by velocity-dependent terms

in the interaction. [...] require that any causal

theory have such a cancellation.

[...]

It is certainly true, though perhaps not widely appreciated,

that observations are incompatible with Newtonian gravity

with a light-speed propagation delay added in."

I can only think you mean in some other theory

than General Relativity, where all the potentials

depend on retarded quantities.

Or, Newtonian gravity is quite well held up.

Without contriving inputs to the solar system,

eg an extra-solar object crossing the face of the Sun,

the Solar System's approximately Keplerian.

As what such an input would also disturb Steve's

(Dr. Carlip's resp.) settlement of Van Flandern's

argument for c_g >> c, in General Relativity,

would as soon involve

"illusory" superluminal motion as

"illusory" classical equilibrium.

Please rephrase your question with an answer.

It seems you're asking for a "levity" device.

Consider a ring cyclotron on a barge, there's

no such thing as a perpetual (reciprocal) motion

machine - but it could agitate quite freely.

A "spacetime wheel" sees two rings can only

observe each other at 0.5c.

In theories of gravity other than GTR which has

that gravity defines the geometry of the geodesy

whatever it is, for example a theory of fall gravity,

there are various notions that contrive a reduction

of space-time curvature (or gravity) without pulling

everything apart, about building a gravity shadow.

I'm not sure how that would be done without re-writing

the field equations.

I demand "space contraction".

https://books.google.com/books?id=Yd4wAQAAMAAJ

(The author puts forward that a rite of duelling

was in a sense as a "civilized" means of the

resolve of disputes. Though I grew up in the

West I'm not fast as a snake, and dueling makes

no sense but for bulls over a fence.)

"Fencing was once a very favorite amusement...".

"THE FIRST DUTY OF A SECOND,

Is to prevent, if possible, the affair

coming to a serious issue, without

compromising the honour of his friend."

Dec 16, 2019, 8:52:12 AM12/16/19

to

>

> Do you accept sir?

>

> (I hereby select Mitch as my second.)

>

Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Dec 16, 2019, 8:52:13 AM12/16/19

to

Those who thrive on confrontational bickering for its own sake, and those

who just want to make passing comments and be left alone about them. Pat

and Ross, two exemplars.

Dec 16, 2019, 11:12:54 AM12/16/19

to

Op 16-dec.-2019 om 04:08 schreef patd...@comcast.net:

idea about the subject whatsoever.

But you couldn't tell, could you :-|

Dirk Vdm

> I have truly enjoyed reading Mr. Finlayson’s posts to this forum. He

> certainly lives up to his boast “I consider myself a pro-relativist,

> as a means”.

But Ross is well-known long-standing crackpot with no
> certainly lives up to his boast “I consider myself a pro-relativist,

> as a means”.

idea about the subject whatsoever.

But you couldn't tell, could you :-|

Dirk Vdm

Dec 16, 2019, 11:46:49 AM12/16/19

to

Dirk, I made a sigma algebra for my little function.

I.e. it's formalized now what I said, then.

Dec 16, 2019, 12:18:41 PM12/16/19

to

Is this not amazing! Is it genuine? Dono?

“You imagine that I look back on my life’s work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track.”

— Albert Einstein

It looks like Einstein didn't want to go out like O'Barr. And I guess I have more respect for him. Now I can look back on my own life's work in this forum with....

Dec 16, 2019, 12:41:53 PM12/16/19

to

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 9:18:41 AM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

> Now I can look back on my own life's work in this forum with....

Your only "work" is the collection of imbecilities you posted
> Now I can look back on my own life's work in this forum with....

Dec 16, 2019, 1:09:55 PM12/16/19

to

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 9:18:41 AM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

We have always striven for more speed. From the time we were earthworms up through our apehood, speed meant life: who beat who to the best food, the best shelter, the best mates. When we became human we continued to strive for more speed for its own sake. Foot races first. Then on horseback. Then via the internal combustion engine. Jet engines and rocket engines. Faster, always faster. Then spake Einstein: "This fast, and no faster"

On that dark day in 1905 the world was deprived of its never ending quest for more speed. Therefore, in the spirit of the contrite Einstein, and in his honor, I shall give the world back it's unhampered, unimpeded, unlimited speed. Stand by.

Dec 16, 2019, 2:21:26 PM12/16/19

to

An example? Consider an observer situated halfway between the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy. Let the observer begin to accelerate at a comfortable and constant 1g towards Andromeda. Availing ourselves of the data on these two webpages

The Relativistic Rocket

and

Relativistic Rocket

we calculate that after 5 years the accelerating observer has traveled a distance of only 82.7 light years in the direction of Andromeda. But the observer has achieved a velocity equal to .99993c relative to the Milky Way and Andromeda rest frame. Because of this the 2,500,000 light years lying between the Milky Way and Andromeda has Lorentz contracted to a mere 29,000 light years. Just as the two ends of a contracting accordion converge towards the center from opposite directions, so too have Andromeda and the Milky Way each converged nearly 1,250,000 light years towards the accelerating observer in just 5 years, as measured by the observer. The Milky Way converges from behind the observer while Andromeda converges from in front of the observer so as to make a “Lorentz sandwich” from the three of them. Now convert the light years per year to meters per second and we find that both galaxies have converged at an *average* meta-velocity of 7.4 x 10^13 meters per second in the observer’s frame. That’s Twenty-Five Thousand times faster than c! And that’s just the average velocity for only 5 years, accelerating at only 1g, and only 2.5 million light years of distance. Increasing any of these parameters, especially the rest frame distance, results in vastly increased meta-velocities.

___________________________________________________

And now for the dazzling math. We have the very familiar Lorentz contraction formula

L’ = sqrt[1-(v/c)^2]L

where v = ctanh(at’/c) and L, L’, a, t’, c have their usual meanings.

Now take the time derivative of L’ to obtain

dL’/dt’ = -(a/c)tanh[t’a/c]sech[t’a/c]L

which when divided by 2 gives the instantaneous meta-velocity for the Lorentz contraction of objects in space, and space itself, in the direction of acceleration. This equation—which intriguingly has the dimensions of velocity m/s, and is signed correctly for contracting convergence—clearly implies that there is no upper speed limit for the meta-velocity of matter.

Voila! Unlimited speed is restored to the world.

Dec 16, 2019, 3:47:42 PM12/16/19

to

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 11:21:26 AM UTC-8, patd...@comcast.net wrote:

> The theory of special relativity itself predicts velocities many, many thousands of times faster than the speed of light. T

No , it doesn't. Cretin.
> The theory of special relativity itself predicts velocities many, many thousands of times faster than the speed of light. T

Dec 16, 2019, 3:58:11 PM12/16/19

to

Einstein himself would praise the tight-as-a-drum reasoning, the compactness of derivation, the clearness of exposition, the daring of my deductions, and the oh-so solid one-two punch of my algebra, trig and calculus. It's a masterwork and my second greatest production for this forum. I might even turn it into a play with the help of mastermind and poet Mitch.

Dec 16, 2019, 4:03:22 PM12/16/19

to

each massy body (i.e., frames on down to

particles) perpetually working

to draw together in the Newtonian

or stake the curvature in the Einsteinian,

that instead, there's a universal field of the gravific,

matter and its associated inertia occupying it.

This was considered by Fatio/LeSage as a

push gravity, contra Newtonian's pull gravity,

where here instead it's a fall gravity as there's

no notion that each massy body is a constantly

working system with influence over each other

throughout the universe.

(Gravity is well known to be proportional to

inverse square, which though attenuating is

still non-zero everywhere for each pair-wise

combination of frames, eg particles.)

Then, the idea of a two-body system is

that instead of a pair of strings (wires)

each pulling the other, that about them

both is the entire field of the universe,

that the inertia of the objects is that

they are at rest, not that they work,

that the line between them only happens

to be what it is the center of a potential,

and that the maximum value of the force

vector in the gravitic field, is the maximum

value of the potential vector in the gravific

field.

Then, this isn't like "ultramundane corpuscles"

of Fatio/LeSage, though that's descriptive,

instead that the objects happen to fall together,

instead of that they pull each other or are pushed

both.

I.e. gravity isn't constantly everywhere

violating conservation of energy.

I.e. the classical system is actually defined

by this super-classical regime.

Cf. Allais effect.

Dec 16, 2019, 7:54:45 PM12/16/19

to

-> 21'st century "fundamental flux"

LeSage gravity was the usual

between Newton and Einstein.

Mass-energy equivalence and

relativistic mass are very significant

features of GTR.

https://www.scirp.org/pdf/OALibJ_2016032511014873.pdf

N.V. Dibrov describes some alternatives of

features of the memory as to explain away

perpetual or infinite inputs, about the

thermodynamic. (From searching for

"shadow gravity".)

Unification is a goal of physics and some

idea that a fall gravity is one-and-the-same

as the strong nuclear force isn't much of

a leap.

With the notions "fations" or "lesageons" are

photon-like for a "light-like" model of such

a flux, obviously it wouldn't be exactly a

light-like model no more than pulsing or

undulating wave models are the same,

or for example skin effect versus core effect

in fluid models of electrical and liquid current.

I.e., there's an idea that the particle model of

the field would have zero viscosity (superfluidity),

as about what the pounding of the waves would have

them in some "sea as foam" type model. There's

a similar notion of the state of such a substance

always evaporating, i.e. for pressures and tensions

at the interfaces between massy bodies and

the space full of echoes of some universal

field of flux.

That's not quite so totally unusual for someone

who might consider something like Bohm-deBroglie,

pilot wave, and the wave of the wave equation

collapsing everywhere at once, that is, where its

real character meets more than simple models

of periodic motion.

Tait on LeSage circa the 1870's:

"The most singular thing about it is that, if it be true,

it will probably lead us to regard all kinds of energy

as ultimately Kinetic."

It's one of those things when, in usually broadly

reviewing the subject matter of a corpus of a

field with much background, sometimes one can

conceive such notions as ideas from existing data,

as what otherwise is a usual ingestion of examples

and the formal outlay of dogma and lecon about

a subject. Here I _think_ I already had a theory of

fall gravity before I heard of Fatio or Lesage,

though of course I'd already heard of Newton

and Einstein, then of course finding that

science spent about a hundred years with

LeSage as the hypothetical theory where the

high energy apparatus wasn't quite available yet

to test it, it already made sense philosophically.

An article on correspondence in letters,

in science, of Euler:

https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_RHS_662_0361--false-agreements-and-true-dissensions.htm

"In Euler's exchanges with the Genevan scholars

Charles Bonnet, Gabriel Cramer, and George-Louis

Lesage on topics as varied but also as perilous as

preformist and epigenesist theories of generation,

the analog between physical manifestations of

sound and light and the mechanical explanation

of gravitation, all the correspondents tack around

the reefs of a dispute, always beginning by praising

the other's work before daring to launch a critique

that is quickly neutralized by fresh compliments. It

is only a last resort, which the dispute seems insurmountable,

that the tone hardens, perhaps to put an end to

an exchange that has run into an impasse. Such

is the case of the correspondence with Lesage, [...]."

Dec 16, 2019, 11:15:10 PM12/16/19

to

mostly be categorised as:

A) Assume it's true, and show that this leads to a contraction.

So far, all such attempts have contained errors.

B) Assume that it's false, and show that this is consistent with its

being false.

Why anyone thinks this says anything about relativity is beyond me.

C) Totally incomprehensible.

Speaks for itself.

Presumably your intent is that the argument fall within A, and that it

will indeed contain at least one error, since if it were a valid

argument, it would be neither hilarious nor outrageous.

I don't see how one can objectively judge either how outrageous, or how

hilarious, such an argument is, much less compare one combination of

such with another. Your proposal does not identify the criteria to be

applied.

It doesn't even state who will do the judging.

Sylvia.

Dec 17, 2019, 12:26:39 AM12/17/19

to

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:15:10 PM UTC-8, Sylvia Else wrote:

Sylvia,

Mr. Finlayson has satisfied Mitch and my honor by conceding the duel. So I repurposed my intended dueling weapon for the dual purpose of an ode to Einstein's moment of weakness and self-doubt at the end of his old age. Please see both my ode and Einstein's quote farther up. Naturally I am interested in receiving your opinion as to any faults the ode might contain before Mitch and I proceed with the task of turning it into a play.

Mr. Finlayson has satisfied Mitch and my honor by conceding the duel. So I repurposed my intended dueling weapon for the dual purpose of an ode to Einstein's moment of weakness and self-doubt at the end of his old age. Please see both my ode and Einstein's quote farther up. Naturally I am interested in receiving your opinion as to any faults the ode might contain before Mitch and I proceed with the task of turning it into a play.

Dec 17, 2019, 11:50:14 AM12/17/19

to

best known for his book on the development

of the integral calculus.

His "The Rainbow: From Myth to Mathematics"

is also an excellent documentary and survey of

the development of the theory of the properties

of the arc-en-ciel.

From antiquity and Aristotle to DesCartes and

Newton, Huygens, Grimaldi and his introduction

of diffraction (or Grimaldi's "inflection"), Fresnel

and Young, Airy, Boyer details theories of light and color

and what became of the intromissive, extromissive,

corpuscular, undulatory, caustical, polarized,

theories of visible light and color.

The excellent chapters "A New Theory" and "The

Mathematician's Rainbow" detail many of the

same notions in concepts about the properties of

light and shadow as what would today inform again

notions of light as gravity-like.

Boyer's "The History of the Calculus and its

Conceptual Development" should be read by

any student of the calculus.

Dec 17, 2019, 2:23:55 PM12/17/19

to

and the latest ideas about the origins of the universe":

"One of the most dramatic consequences of the

wavelike character of all mass and energy is

what it does for our idea of a vacuum. If matter

is ultimately composed of tiny particles, like bullets,

then we can say unambiguously whether the particle

is in one half of a box or the other. In the case of

a wave, the answer to the question 'Where is it?' is

not so clear. The wave spans the whole box."

Quantum mechanics? Continuum mechanics.

About "sea as foam", see for example a description

as by "quantum foam", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam .

"Spin foam theory is a modern attempt

to make Wheeler's idea quantitative."

Sea foam: foam in the sea, compressible

"Sea Foam" brand: drain cleaner, rust remover, radiator flush

I heard of quantum foam theories before, but now I have

a place to fit the metaphor: fall gravity and omnidirectional flux.

Cf. https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath426/kmath426.htm

The Dirac positronic sea is a hypothetical

uniform media throughout space.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_foam :

"In 2009 the two MAGIC (Major Atmospheric Gamma-ray

Imaging Cerenkov) telescopes detected that among

gamma-ray photons arriving from the blazar Markarian 501,

some photons at different energy levels arrived at different

times, suggesting that some of the photons had moved

more slowly and thus contradicting the general relativity's

notion of the speed of light being constant, a discrepancy

which could be explained by the irregularity of quantum foam.

More recents experiments were, however, unable to confirm

the supposed variation on the speed of light due to the

graininess of space."

Quantum mechanics? Continuum mechanics.

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/news/17dec03.html :

"These results may also be telling us the correct form of

string theory or quantum gravity and must obey the

principle of Lorentz invariance."

I demand 'space contraction'.

Dec 17, 2019, 2:29:53 PM12/17/19

to

On 12/16/19 10:15 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

> Alleged proofs of the falsehood of relativity posted to this group can

> mostly be categorised as:

> A) Assume it's true, and show that this leads to a contraction.

> So far, all such attempts have contained errors.

Yes. For this to succeed one must also show that Euclidean geometry is
> Alleged proofs of the falsehood of relativity posted to this group can

> mostly be categorised as:

> A) Assume it's true, and show that this leads to a contraction.

> So far, all such attempts have contained errors.

internally inconsistent, and that real analysis is internally

inconsistent, or show an error in the proofs that the math of SR is as

self-consistent as they are.

Nobody who claims SR is "inconsistent" has even recognized the need to

do that.

(That's a self-fulfilling prophecy: anyone who recognizes

that need already knows that SR is self-consistent.)

> [... other ways of attempting to show SR is inconsistent]

Yes, none of those silly attempts succeed, either.

Tom Roberts

Dec 17, 2019, 2:47:35 PM12/17/19

to

and about independence of the parallel postulate, i.e.,

"Semi-Euclidean geometries", for preserving all other

matters of proportion and form accorded geometry,

and straight lines and right angles in the neighborhood

of any co-ordinate origin.

Some "Pre-Euclidean geometry" that actually builds the

objects of Euclid's Elements from simpler principles

as about point-wise points and total spaces, might seem

to follow from some notion of a "spiral space-filling

curve as a natural continuum" and some "axiomless geometry".

That though would be as much about showing Euclidean geometry

to be a consistent and in a sense privileged geometry,

with the parallel postulate and non-Euclidean geometries

as only defined in terms of Euclidean geometry (or this

"axiomless" geometry). I.e. in a sense, non-Euclidean

geometries are in a sense more degenerate, "derived from",

than more general, "generalizing", than Euclidean geometry.

It's similar with real analysis whether really "the

usual standard complete ordered field after Cauchy,

Weierstrass, Dedekind is the only model of a continuum",

when for example there are others eg this idea of a

"natural continuum".

"SR is local" is a not unusual modern refrain.

(I.e. to keep it consistent.)

Dec 17, 2019, 2:54:37 PM12/17/19

to

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 11:29:53 AM UTC-8, tjrob137 wrote:

The Theory of Relativity nearly died in infancy when it was learned in 1907 that it was useless for describing physical phenomena in non-inenertial frames of reference. And what possible use can a theory spoiled by gravity have in a universe that is permeated by gravity. Einstein’s patch for this glitch came to be known as the theory of General Relativity. General Relativity is meant to provide a glitch-free arena in which Special Relativity can successfully operate in the presence of gravity.

But does Einstein’s General Relativity actually fix Einstein’s Special Relativity? For instance, below is described a perfectly plausible physical situation in which Relativity is asked to calculate two very simple, simultaneous and equal scalar quantities—quantities that are easily calculated everyday by engineers, students and scientists where space and time are separate entities. While the same calculations in relativistic space-time have proven to be absolutely and constitutionally incapable of providing consistent values for these two scalars.

Task: calculate in newtons the magnitudes of the centrifugal force and the gravitational force observed to be acting on the Earth as it orbits the Sun, by a distant observer traveling at .9c relative to the Solar System along the line that is collinear with the Sun’s axis of rotation. And please show us your work just for the fun of it. Thanks.

In consideration of the foregoing, is it finally time to carefully scrutinize the experimental evidence for relativity? Here again we find much controversy.

Dec 17, 2019, 3:03:03 PM12/17/19

to

the true centrifugal would be

via for example a fall gravity.

gravitic -> centripetal

gravific -> centrifugal

This is that the potential is real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_centrifugal_force

Dec 17, 2019, 3:28:15 PM12/17/19

to

pats <patd...@comcast.net> wrote:

In this day and age, shameless propagandizing seems to be a fad. Let’s just

digest this in smaller chunks.

>

> Einstein’s theory of relativity is a theory in crisis.

Unsubstantiated.

> Of those who actually study it, approximately half come away doubting its

> validity in spite of the experimental evidence.

Made up number, completely incorrect as well.

> This situation can’t be entirely due to misunderstanding the theory.

You mean the made up situation?

> Newton’s three laws of motion, the ideal gas law, Coulomb’s law, etc.

> generate nowhere near as much controversy.

Not today, 350 years later. But then again, relativity doesn’t generate

much controversy either, outside the small group you belong to, which is

about the same size as the Flat Earth Society that has problems with Newton

or the creationists who have a problem with Darwin. Is evolution highly

controversial? Is a round earth controversial?

> Clearly something somewhere is amiss in the world of Relativity.

>

> The Theory of Relativity nearly died in infancy when it was learned in

> 1907 that it was useless for describing physical phenomena in

> non-inenertial frames of reference.

Also untrue. What evidence from 1907 do you have for the claim?

> And what possible use can a theory spoiled by gravity have in a universe

> that is permeated by gravity.

I don’t know why you think that relativity doesn’t apply in a weak gravity

case. One of the foundational aspects of GR is that a free fall frame is an

acceptable SR inertial frame for sufficiently small lab and sufficiently

short time.

> Einstein’s patch for this glitch came to be known as the theory of General Relativity.

Going from a special treatment to a general treatment is not patching a

glitch.

> General Relativity is meant to provide a glitch-free arena in which

> Special Relativity can successfully operate in the presence of gravity.

Well not completely. See above.

>

> But does Einstein’s General Relativity actually fix Einstein’s Special

> Relativity? For instance, below is described a perfectly plausible

> physical situation in which Relativity is asked to calculate two very

> simple, simultaneous and equal scalar quantities—quantities that are

> easily calculated everyday by engineers, students and scientists where

> space and time are separate entities. While the same calculations in

> relativistic space-time have proven to be absolutely and constitutionally

> incapable of providing consistent values for these two scalars.

>

> Task: calculate in newtons the magnitudes of the centrifugal force and

> the gravitational force observed to be acting on the Earth as it orbits

> the Sun, by a distant observer traveling at .9c relative to the Solar

> System along the line that is collinear with the Sun’s axis of rotation.

> And please show us your work just for the fun of it. Thanks.

0 and 0. The work for your fun is omitted. Do some work instead.

>

> In consideration of the foregoing, is it finally time to carefully

> scrutinize the experimental evidence for relativity? Here again we find much controversy.

>

What controversy did you have in mind?

In this day and age, shameless propagandizing seems to be a fad. Let’s just

digest this in smaller chunks.

>

> Einstein’s theory of relativity is a theory in crisis.

> Of those who actually study it, approximately half come away doubting its

> validity in spite of the experimental evidence.

> This situation can’t be entirely due to misunderstanding the theory.

> Newton’s three laws of motion, the ideal gas law, Coulomb’s law, etc.

> generate nowhere near as much controversy.

much controversy either, outside the small group you belong to, which is

about the same size as the Flat Earth Society that has problems with Newton

or the creationists who have a problem with Darwin. Is evolution highly

controversial? Is a round earth controversial?

> Clearly something somewhere is amiss in the world of Relativity.

>

> The Theory of Relativity nearly died in infancy when it was learned in

> 1907 that it was useless for describing physical phenomena in

> non-inenertial frames of reference.

> And what possible use can a theory spoiled by gravity have in a universe

> that is permeated by gravity.

case. One of the foundational aspects of GR is that a free fall frame is an

acceptable SR inertial frame for sufficiently small lab and sufficiently

short time.

> Einstein’s patch for this glitch came to be known as the theory of General Relativity.

glitch.

> General Relativity is meant to provide a glitch-free arena in which

> Special Relativity can successfully operate in the presence of gravity.

>

> But does Einstein’s General Relativity actually fix Einstein’s Special

> Relativity? For instance, below is described a perfectly plausible

> physical situation in which Relativity is asked to calculate two very

> simple, simultaneous and equal scalar quantities—quantities that are

> easily calculated everyday by engineers, students and scientists where

> space and time are separate entities. While the same calculations in

> relativistic space-time have proven to be absolutely and constitutionally

> incapable of providing consistent values for these two scalars.

>

> Task: calculate in newtons the magnitudes of the centrifugal force and

> the gravitational force observed to be acting on the Earth as it orbits

> the Sun, by a distant observer traveling at .9c relative to the Solar

> System along the line that is collinear with the Sun’s axis of rotation.

> And please show us your work just for the fun of it. Thanks.

>

> In consideration of the foregoing, is it finally time to carefully

> scrutinize the experimental evidence for relativity? Here again we find much controversy.

>

Dec 17, 2019, 3:47:07 PM12/17/19

to

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 12:28:15 PM UTC-8, Odd Bodkin wrote:

Bodkin, my boy, thank you for your careful attention to my essay. But there is only one line of your commentary which sums up your entire effort:

Dec 17, 2019, 3:59:46 PM12/17/19

to

Odd Bodkin wrote in <qtbdor$2gd$1...@gioia.aioe.org>:

>

> Is a round earth controversial?

It never was, Slow Boy.
> Is a round earth controversial?

Dec 17, 2019, 5:01:49 PM12/17/19

to

> Is evolution highly

> controversial?

Here, let me compose you another essay:

There is a mountain of experimental results in the 10,000 years of human-driven artificial selection on the farms, in the fields, pastures, pens and gardens of every culture in every corner of the world in addition to 150 years of intense artificial selection in academic and industrial laboratories all over the world on all kinds of plants and animals—this must be the equivalent of 150 billion years of natural selection—and yet not one single solitary example of cladogenesis as a result of accumulated anagenesis. Then there’s Richard Lenski ‘s 68,000 generations of E. coli up at the U of MI, with no speciation. The theory of Evolution is the most experimentally disconfirmed theory in the entire history of Science.

Both component parts of the theory—selection operating on mutation—are scientifically demonstrated by experiment to be in good working order. But the major prediction of the theory is found by exhaustive experimentation to be false. The science is clear that no amount of accumulated anagenesis can cause species to transcend their biological boundaries. Why not??? What a great question to research and study. And a question that sadly won’t be worked on until the last of the closed-minded, anti-inquiry evolutionists is finally laid to rest.

> controversial?

>

> --

> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Bodkin, do you ever get out of the Shire every now and then? Do you not know or care about the battlefield of debate currently going on over Evolution???
> --

> Odd Bodkin — Maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Here, let me compose you another essay:

There is a mountain of experimental results in the 10,000 years of human-driven artificial selection on the farms, in the fields, pastures, pens and gardens of every culture in every corner of the world in addition to 150 years of intense artificial selection in academic and industrial laboratories all over the world on all kinds of plants and animals—this must be the equivalent of 150 billion years of natural selection—and yet not one single solitary example of cladogenesis as a result of accumulated anagenesis. Then there’s Richard Lenski ‘s 68,000 generations of E. coli up at the U of MI, with no speciation. The theory of Evolution is the most experimentally disconfirmed theory in the entire history of Science.

Both component parts of the theory—selection operating on mutation—are scientifically demonstrated by experiment to be in good working order. But the major prediction of the theory is found by exhaustive experimentation to be false. The science is clear that no amount of accumulated anagenesis can cause species to transcend their biological boundaries. Why not??? What a great question to research and study. And a question that sadly won’t be worked on until the last of the closed-minded, anti-inquiry evolutionists is finally laid to rest.

Dec 17, 2019, 5:41:56 PM12/17/19

to

Tom Roberts wrote:

> (That's a self-fulfilling prophecy: anyone who recognizes

> that need already knows that SR is self-consistent.)

>

>> [... other ways of attempting to show SR is inconsistent]

>

> Yes, none of those silly attempts succeed, either.

actually it does, since it needs a bunch of dark matter, whatever you
> (That's a self-fulfilling prophecy: anyone who recognizes

> that need already knows that SR is self-consistent.)

>

>> [... other ways of attempting to show SR is inconsistent]

>

> Yes, none of those silly attempts succeed, either.

want to call it. It's just not there, to satisfy the needs of relativity.

Dec 17, 2019, 5:42:27 PM12/17/19

to

pat wrote in <eaacd2b2-e0f6-43b2...@googlegroups.com>:

> Odd Bodkin w4rote:

> >

> > Is evolution highly controversial?

> Do you not know or care about the battlefield of debate currently

> going on over Evolution???

>

> Here, let me compose you another essay:

>

> There is a mountain of experimental results in the 10,000 years of

> human-driven artificial selection on the farms, in the fields,

> pastures, pens and gardens of every culture in every corner of the

> world in addition to 150 years of intense artificial selection in

> academic and industrial laboratories all over the world on all kinds

> of plants and animalsi "this must be the equivalent of 150 billion

regards anagenesis and accumulated anagenesis, but only in that area

of detail. Stephen Gould's variation suffers no such contradictions.

> Both component parts of the theory "selection operating on mutation"

> are scientifically demonstrated by experiment to be in good working

> order. But the major prediction of the theory is found by exhaustive

> experimentation to be false.

That's not true. It's only the gradualism that's contradicted.

> The science is clear that no amount of

> accumulated anagenesis can cause species to transcend their biological

> boundaries. Why not???

The DNA molecules of different species don't match up: they can't combine.

> What a great question to research and study.

Might even be a Nobel in it. But not until they face up to the idiocy

of their "steady rate' hypothesis and their "eve" hypothesis.

> And a question that sadly won't be worked on until the last of the

> closed-minded, anti-inquiry evolutionists is finally laid to rest.

They *do* sound like physicists, don't they?

> Odd Bodkin w4rote:

> >

> > Is evolution highly controversial?

>

> Bodkin, do you ever get out of the Shire every now and then?

LOL.
> Bodkin, do you ever get out of the Shire every now and then?

> Do you not know or care about the battlefield of debate currently

> going on over Evolution???

>

> Here, let me compose you another essay:

>

> There is a mountain of experimental results in the 10,000 years of

> human-driven artificial selection on the farms, in the fields,

> pastures, pens and gardens of every culture in every corner of the

> world in addition to 150 years of intense artificial selection in

> academic and industrial laboratories all over the world on all kinds

> years of natural selection" and yet not one single solitary example

> of cladogenesis as a result of accumulated anagenesis. Then there's

> Richard Lenski's 68,000 generations of E. coli up at the U of MI,

> with no speciation. The theory of Evolution is the most experimentally

> disconfirmed theory in the entire history of Science.

That's not true. The theory *as put by Darwin* is contradicted as
> of cladogenesis as a result of accumulated anagenesis. Then there's

> Richard Lenski's 68,000 generations of E. coli up at the U of MI,

> with no speciation. The theory of Evolution is the most experimentally

> disconfirmed theory in the entire history of Science.

regards anagenesis and accumulated anagenesis, but only in that area

of detail. Stephen Gould's variation suffers no such contradictions.

> Both component parts of the theory "selection operating on mutation"

> are scientifically demonstrated by experiment to be in good working

> order. But the major prediction of the theory is found by exhaustive

> experimentation to be false.

> The science is clear that no amount of

> accumulated anagenesis can cause species to transcend their biological

> boundaries. Why not???

> What a great question to research and study.

of their "steady rate' hypothesis and their "eve" hypothesis.

> And a question that sadly won't be worked on until the last of the

> closed-minded, anti-inquiry evolutionists is finally laid to rest.

Dec 17, 2019, 6:35:26 PM12/17/19

to

Dec 17, 2019, 8:34:24 PM12/17/19

to

Odd Bodkin wrote:

----snip----

> Don't confuse careful attention with what I did there.

Or anywhere.

----snip----

> Don't confuse careful attention with what I did there.

Dec 17, 2019, 11:00:47 PM12/17/19

to

Dec 17, 2019, 11:10:16 PM12/17/19

to

On 12/17/19 1:54 PM, pats wrote:

> Einstein’s theory of relativity is a theory in crisis.

Not really, but it depends somewhat on what you mean. If you mean
> Einstein’s theory of relativity is a theory in crisis.

SPECIAL relativity in the experimentally-reachable domain today, then

you are flat-out wrong. If you mean SR beyond that domain, then it is

not a "crisis", it is merely the usual issue of not being omniscient. If

you mean GENERAL relativity, then it is not really GR that is in crisis,

but rather all of fundamental theoretical physics -- we DON'T KNOW

whether it is GR, QM, or both that needs to be changed, we only know

that they are incompatible. We also know that the standard model [#] is

not self-consistent at some energy higher than our experiments can reach

today, so it is not at all inconceivable that it is QM that must change

the most, not GR. But GR is not a quantum theory, so it also seems

likely that it must be replaced with something else, generically called

"quantum gravity" but currently unknown.

[#] The standard model is the best model we have of quantum

phenomena and the behavior of elementary particles.

> Of those who actually study it, approximately half come away doubting its validity in spite of the experimental evidence.

There have been 1000 - 1800 Ph.D. in physics awarded in the U.S. each

year (1972-2017), many more in other countries, and EVERY ONE of them

understands SR without "doubting its validity". Some fraction of them

understand GR as well, without you fantasized doubts. This COMPLETELY

DWARFS the thiny number of vocal crackpots who do indeed doubt the

validity of relativity, without understanding it.

> [... many more unsubstantiated claims, and much nonsense]

You need to come out of your fantasy world and join the real world.

Fantasies and made-up "statistics" are USELESS.

Tom Roberts

Dec 17, 2019, 11:54:47 PM12/17/19

to

Many dictionaries have "shoo" as an interjection,

or exclamation, but as an imperative it's not a

one-sided, uninterpreted, grunt.

I.e., "trolls, get thee shoo'd", not "shoo you".

Physicists culturally are not rarely among the more

humorous kinds of often the nerd-ish sort, eg for

differences between nerd-ish and gang-rish (gang-lish).

)

Pat: Proton/electron lifetime: if not infinite, then it's

part of a ratio about something else i.e. particles

that have zero lifetime but effectively exist briefly.

Electrons are slow, it's the holes that are fast and

define amperage/current. Fast-moving electrons,

aren't really electrons of the usual sort, though of

course in terms of Pauli they either are or aren't.

Electromagnetism has a slew of fields in a sense

like the particle physics has a zoo of particles. It's

important to remember there 's an 'A' potential

field before there's a 'B' magnetic flux density field,

about B, H and usual solutions to statics and dynamics

in electromagnetics. Maxwell lettered a slew of fields.

Ouside the magnetic field the field strength is

usually considered to be zero, but there's potential

attenuated out to infinity.

Consider (if you would) this article from Bork, 1967:

"Maxwell and the Vector Potential":

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/350221?journalCode=isis

"Sometimes we find an ontological statement that

the electric and magnetic fields are real quantities

but the potentials are mathematical fictions introduced

only for convenience in solving the basic equations of

electromagnetic theory. [...] I am interested in what

seems to be a historical form of the same idea. [...]

Here we investigate the introduction of the vector potential

in the work of James Clerk Maxwellm and we shall see that

the above view is far from accurate in representing the

historical situation."

(The "real" potential field might be as "wells" besides "vectors".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential :

"In more advanced theories such as quantum mechanics,

most equations use potentials rather than ["real"] fields."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagneatic_four-potential

("Wells" or here for example "four-potentials".)

Scales of length and mass: 1 amu vis-a-vis Planck

length, superstring length, this is about issues at

scale where length to area to volume aren't the

usual fungible things. There are similar notions

about Schw. radius and other examples of white holes.

Dec 18, 2019, 12:02:33 AM12/18/19

to

I agree except that students of SR must

actually _test_ its validity besides _examine_ it

(or receive it).

I.e., unconditional acceptance is shallow, and different

kinds of thinkers or computers handle it very variously.

The "philosophical" approach might itself be weak, but

combined with the deliberate approach it's deep,

and thorough.

Thanks for your point that GR, QM, and a theory of gravity

are yet in the works about physics' search for unification

of theory.

Your point about statistic is two-sided, physics has quite

a bunch it depends upon in the statistics, as for what

Quantum Mechanics is inherently probabilistic even if

the actual wave might have an interpretation where

Heisenberg is re-interpreted as moot, after Bohm-deBroglie,

it's not just that there are Bose-Einstein and Dirac-Fermi

and parastatistics as parameterized, for tuning or model-fitting,

but the theory of probability _owes_ physics more than the

Central Limit Theorem.

Dec 18, 2019, 4:30:44 AM12/18/19

to

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 8:10:16 PM UTC-8, tjrob137 wrote:

TAKE A LOO...JUST A MINUTE, MY CAPS KEY IS STUCK...take a look a how Dono slithered away into the shadows under the same challenge and provocation. And how Bodkin was all bluster but no calculation. I rule here and don't forget it!

Dec 18, 2019, 7:27:31 AM12/18/19

to

your pistol.

>

> TAKE A LOO...JUST A MINUTE, MY CAPS KEY IS STUCK...take a look a how Dono

> slithered away into the shadows under the same challenge and provocation.

> And how Bodkin was all bluster but no calculation. I rule here and don't forget it!

>

Dec 18, 2019, 9:43:42 AM12/18/19

to

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 1:30:44 AM UTC-8, pat wrote:

> ANSWER MY PROBLEM Tom Roberts or admit defeat. Like Bodkin, you will never, ever show us your work or you solution to my problem.

What "problem", cretinoid?
> ANSWER MY PROBLEM Tom Roberts or admit defeat. Like Bodkin, you will never, ever show us your work or you solution to my problem.

Dec 18, 2019, 11:50:48 AM12/18/19

to

He’s just being an asshat.

Dec 18, 2019, 11:58:14 AM12/18/19

to

patty-boy IS an asshat.

Dec 18, 2019, 12:31:07 PM12/18/19

to

Calculate in newtons the magnitudes of the centrifugal force and the gravitational force observed to be acting on the earth as it orbits the sun, by a distant observer traveling at .9c relative to the solar system along the line that is collinear with the sun's axis of rotation. Show your work.

If your answer is 0 and 0 then show us how you calculated it, if you can. If you cannot then be man or Sylvia enough to admit it.

Dec 18, 2019, 1:13:31 PM12/18/19

to

In the frame of the Sun, coplanar with the Earth orbit we select the axes as follows:

z pointing East

y pointing South

x perpendicular on the yz plane (the orbital plane of the Earth)

In this frame, the Earth speed components are:

v_x=0 (obviously)

v_y=\omegaR cos \omega t

v_z=- \omega R sin \omega t

The components of the gravitational force in this frame are:

F_x=0

F_y=\frac{GmM}{R^2}sin \omega t

F_z=\frac{GmM}{R^2}cos \omega t

In the frame attached to imbecile patty dolan whizzing at v=0.9c along the x axis, the forces are:

F'_x=F_x-\frac{v/c^2(F_y*v_y+F_z*v_z}{1-v*v_x/c^2}=0-0=0

F'_y=\frac{F_y}{\gamma*(1-v*v_x/c^2)}=\frac{F_y}{\gamma}

F'_z=\frac{F_z}{\gamma}

\gamma=\frac{1}{\sqrt{1-v^2/c^2}}

Now, eat my shit, asshole

Dec 18, 2019, 2:07:41 PM12/18/19

to

(Approximately.)

Boyer saves some of his most emphatic points in

"The Rainbow:..." for the closing pages:

"The structure of vibrating atoms is vastly more

complicated than the few simple motions proposed

by Huygens, Newton, Young, Fresnel, and Maxwell.

In 1887, the year before Hertz discovered his waves,

Stokes wrote of the wave theory as ''a thing at the

present day resting on evidence quite overwhelming''.

Today the situation has changed so radically that as

to occasion the facetious remark that physicists accept

the wave theory three days a week and hold to the

corpuscular doctrine three days a week, and every

seventh day they humbly admit their lack of understanding."

"[Boitel] concluded that ''the theory of Airy seems to

need to be completed.'' Moreover, through very carefully

conducted experiments of his own, Boitel obtained results

not entirely consistent with those from the Airy integral,

and he suggested that ''the theory of Airy is therefore but

a first approximation.'' How familiar a situation this is

in the history of science, and especially in the story of

the rainbow! What one generation hails as a ''complete

theory'', the next relegates to the status of a ''first

approximation''."

"Pernter took particular pains to point out the inadequacy

of the Cartesian explanation and to clarify the theory of

Airy. As he pointed out, the phrase ''Cartesian effective

ray'' is misleading. It is not the only effective ray; and, indeed,

Airy had shown that among all the effective rays, it is not

even the most efficacious. The phrase ''least deviated'' is

the correct designation for DesCartes' ray."

"Pernter reiterated that the geometrical [corpuscular,

rectilinear] theory cannot account for any of these

variations, and ''inasmuch as it only holds for drops of

infinite radius, it must be completely abandoned.'' While

Pernter's extreme position is of course correct, in a strict

sense, the Cartesian theory has remained the backbone of

the schoolboy's explanation of the rainbow because it

affords so eminently clear and direct a first approximation."

"Aesthetes were grieved at Newton's simple materialistic

explanation of color. But if they could know of the intricate

maze of creative mathematics required for the study of the

rainbow, they would realize how misguided they are - or else

how thoroughly avenged! Within a raindrop the interaction

of light energy with matter is so intimate that one is led directly

to quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity."

"The corpuscular and wave theories of light seem to have

far more in common than Newton and Huygens had ever

dreamed, for in 1924 Louis de Broglie (b.1892) established

a synthesis of views in which light is made up of tiny entities

dragging trains of waves with them."

Dec 18, 2019, 2:31:40 PM12/18/19

to

Do you realize you are trying to snow one of the world's greatest forensic relativists with a bunch of algebra. My expertise lies EXACTLY in exposing the very flaws that the algebra hides. Your mind has been softened by years of writing algebraic verse, the likes of which Mitch might write if he knew some algebra (No slight intended Mitch. I love your physical phree verse).

So let's solve this crime together using fact witnesses: THE ACTUAL NUMBERS.

Step 1. a distant observer at rest wrt the Solar System and on a line collinear with the axis of the sun's rotation uses a very powerful telescope to observe the small hand on Big Bend in London while the earth orbits the sun.

Question 1. How many times does our observer see the little hand go around Big Ben for every 2pi re