GPS without general relativity

[RichD]

On the alternative earth, Htrae, Einstein publshed
his paper on SR, but then was run down and killed
by a mob of cranks in stampeding horse carriages.
So GR never gets discovered.

Later, they develop GPS, and mystifed by the
clock de-synchronization thing. How do they explain it?

--
Rich

[Dillon Vanmeter]

Very easy. Friction induced by Gravity. Gravity is something still unknown
here on Earth.

[pnal...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:38:00 PM UTC-7, Dillon Vanmeter wrote:

> Very easy. Friction induced by Gravity. Gravity is something still unknown
>
> here on Earth.

There is no such thing as gravity, the Earth just sucks...

[JanPB]

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:18:39 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> On the alternative earth, Htrae, Einstein publshed
> his paper on SR, but then was run down and killed
> by a mob of cranks in stampeding horse carriages.
> So GR never gets discovered.

It's quite reasonable to expect GR would have been discovered around 1940-1950
without Einstein.

--
Jan

[xxe...@comcast.net]

xxein: You are closer than you think but still very far away from understanding it all.

[Sylvia Else]

It would lead to experiments being done to explore the phenomenon more
precisely, and eventually a theory would be constructed that would
correspond to GR. It would be noticed, sooner or later, that the theory
also explained anomalies in the orbit of Mercury, and there would be
much rejoicing in the scientific community.

Over a period of time, the ad-hoc adjustments being made in satellites
and/or ground equipment would be replaced by adjustments with a proper
theoretical basis.

Knowing in advance of this effect must certainly have made the
implementation of GPS a lot easier, and probably saved a good deal of money.

Sylvia.

[RichD]

> It's quite reasonable to expect GR would
> have been discovered around 1940-1950 without Einstein.

By who?

--
Rich

[Reid Wagner]

Good question, I don't thing that would. Neither Einstein discovered
anything, he gave it another title, and was not thinking properly on the
implication of that Electrodynamic Moving Bodies.

They could not find anything wrong in his paper, from a logical argument
point of view. The implications and the transit into a proper Relativity
Theory was inevitable.

[Koobee Wublee]

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 2:18:39 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:

Development of the GPS certainly does not require anything of GR. The following explains why. <shrug>

>>>> DEMYSTIFICATION BEGINS <<<<

The purpose of the GPS is to allow someone anywhere within the atmosphere of the earth to locate its own altitude, longitude, and latitude. To do so, the system consists of at least two dozen satellites where each one is required to note its own altitude, longitude, and latitude in some degree of accuracy. In addition, to allow reasonable designs to the GPS receivers, all satellite time is synchronized. Here, time does not mean clock frequency but a counter accumulated by an atomic clock. Periodically, each satellite broadcasts these four parameters downlink.

For the GPS receiver, it does not know its own altitude, longitude, latitude, and its time according to the satellites. By acquiring the known parameters from four independent satellites, a set of four equations can be laid out. The receiver then solves the unknowns that become its own altitude, longitude, latitude, and time.

** c^2 (t - t1)^2 = (x - x1)^2 + (y - y1)^2 + (z - z1)^2
** c^2 (t - t2)^2 = (x - x2)^2 + (y - y2)^2 + (z - z2)^2
** c^2 (t - t3)^2 = (x - x3)^2 + (y - y3)^2 + (z - z3)^2
** c^2 (t - t4)^2 = (x - x4)^2 + (y - y4)^2 + (z - z4)^2

Where

** (t, x, y, z) = Unknown time and position of the receiver
** (t1, x1, y1, z1) = Known time and position of the 1st satellite
** c = speed of light

Of course, these are the first order effects. One can estimate the second order effects or acquire more information from other satellites, and through iterations, an accurate result can be achieved.

The issue now is how to synchronize the time among the satellites. Does one have to tweak each clock frequency to match that of the ground while being assembled? If so, it becomes an extremely expensive proposition with the potential payout of validating any hypothesis that says time will go faster as the altitude increases. Among these hypotheses includes general relativity, and self-styled physicists are not shy to trumpet the result.

So, think about it for a moment. It is unreasonable to launch satellites where the time cannot be set to any value. Thus, even if the clock frequencies are exactly the same as that of the ground, one still needs to synchronize this time. To do so, it is merely a hardware-assisted software solution implementing some sorts of algorithm.

To announce to the world its own time, each satellite merely has to add up the following three values.

** Dynamic count accumulated by an atomic clock or some sort where this counter would never have to be tampered with

** Static offset to bring the satellite time to desired time

** Dynamic offset to adjust every certain time interval if the atomic clock is too slow or too fast accumulating the dynamic count

Where

** Broadcast time = dynamic count + static offset + dynamic offset

There are many algorithms to allow for one to compute the static offset. One popular one is the IEEE1588 which is very similar to the NTP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Time_Protocol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol

Say satellite A wants to synchronize its broadcast time with B. The following steps are what A and B should do.

** B sends a packet to A and notes the timestamp (T_B1) at the moment when the packet is sent, and A notes the moment when the packet is received with timestamp (T_A1).

** B sends what T_B1 is to A. At this moment, A knows what TB1 and TA1 are.

** A sends a packet to B and notes the timestamp (T_A2) at the moment when the packet is sent, and B notes the moment when the packet is received with timestamp (T_B2).

** B sends what T_B2 is to A. Now, A knows TA1, TB1, TA2, and TB2.

From these four parameters, A can now compute its static offset to B's counter as well as its dynamic offset if its clock is too fast or too slow. Of course, this is the ideal situation. In real life, one has the delay time which must be estimated, and through many iterations, the desired accuracies in the static and the dynamic offsets can be achieved.

So, where does general relativity come into the design of the GPS? Let's examine the spacetime equation for the Schwarzschild metric where #2 is the observed spacetime by observers #1 and #3.

** c^2 dt1^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds12^2 = c^2 dt2^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds22^2
= c^2 dt3^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds32^2...

Where

** (dt1, d[s12]) = Observation of observer #1
** ds12^2 = dr12^2 / (1 - 2 U2) + r12^2 dO12^2
** dO1^2 = cos^2(Latitude12) dLongitude12^2 + dLatitude12^2
** U2 = Gravitational potential at #2
** [s12] = Position vector of #2 as observed by #1

Notice U2 has nothing to do with the observers #1 and #3. It is strictly a parameter of the observed. The above equation can then be rewritten as follows.

** c^2 dt2^2 (1 - 2 U2) = c^2 dt1^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds12^2
= c^2 dt3^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds32^2...

Where

** ds22 = 0

This is the basis why spacetime or the proper time thing is invariant because the local time flow is always invariant. Since U2, the gravitational potential at #2, is invariant, spacetime physics can never describe how time is affected by the local gravitational potential of the observer (only the observed). General relativity is just absolutely pure nonsense, and the GPS works because of the ingenuities of the engineers involved and not some self-styled physicists peddling their bullshit known as General Relativity where Einstein the nitwit, the plagiarist, and the liar is deified for their new religion.

>>>> DEMYSTIFICATION DONE FOR NOW <<<<

Hope this helps. <shrug>

[floatybo...@gmail.com]

Gravity is harsh. One of first things I evolved was replacing gravity and that planet picture logo at beggining of kpax movie that I think is universal logo.I think that's the logo but I don't want to check.I forgot the specifics of replacing gravity.

[Odd Bodkin]

Lots of people might have done it.
Norbert Weiner
John von Neumann
Bill Bardeen
John Wheeler

>
> --
> Rich
>

[xxe...@comcast.net]

xxein: I'm way too familiar with Wheeler. No way.

[Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato]

Perhaps you will be interested to know about what I denote 1905 Relativity (1905R), only the two Einstein's Relativity papers on that year (I claim that 1905R and today SR are NOT the same thing, for many very convincing and clear reasons).

First of all, I derived from the Sep27 paper (only 3 short pages) that the conclusion "The mass of a body is a measure of its energy-content" applies to ALL type of energies, including the potential one (gravitational NOT excluded).
I put a first paper in arXiv.org (2010) explaining the behavior of an atomic clock in a gravitational field with only 1905R (gravitational red shift).

The following is my second paper in the public domain about new derivations from 1905R:

Valls Hidalgo-Gato, Rafael A. (October 16, 2012); "Towards an extension of 1905 relativistic dynamics with a variable rest mass measuring potential energy", Arxiv.org, 1210.4157. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1210/1210.4157.pdf

In this last paper, besides the gravitational red shift, the Mercury's perihelion one is explained; but more important yet, the ratio gravitational mass m_G/inertial mass m_I is proved equal to the 1905R relativistic factor gamma=1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)=m_G/m_0, being here m_0 the variable rest mass mentioned in the title, previously known only as the inertial mass m_I. Take into account that all this could be done in 1905, 10 years before GR with the fundamental strict equality m_G=m_I.

A very surprising compatibility between 1905R and the ORIGINAL 1686 Newton's mechanics is found, where Corollary V (Galileo's Principle o Relativity) is generalized with Corollary VI from zero acceleration (any constant uniform velocity) to ANY variable acceleration. The Newtonian motion (today momentum p) is found equal to m_G*v, with the second Law expressed by the equation dp/dt=gamma*F (alteration of motion is PROPORTIONAL to the force impressed), where force F=m_I*dv/dt.

With all that new knowledge (what I repeat , could be all obtained in 1905), soon a 1905R relativistic system of equations for the general gravitational n-body problem is obtained, and applied with all EXPERIMENTAL success to the 10 principal bodies of the Solar System, using the ephemerides data (obtained from the Web Horizons JPL-NASA-IAU public service) covering an available interval of 60 centuries.

After some (very interesting) interchange with the Moderator, I finally put part of the results in sci.physics.research with the following very conservative title:

Is the relativistic Lorentz radical related in some way with gravity?
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=es-419#!topic/sci.physics.research/cjS9qmd_EYk

and also the following:

A time definition simpler and equivalent to the 1905
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=es-419#!topic/sci.physics.research/R96eyz2pugA

RVHG (Rafael Valls Hidalgo-Gato)

>
>
> Sylvia.

[Richard Hertz]

On Friday, September 19, 2014 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-3, Koobee Wublee wrote:

<snip>

Koobee Wublee gave a free lesson to everyone, while pnal (Paul Alsing) was the same imbecile 9 years ago as he's today.
The only thing that this retarded post are ONE LINERS, posing as a smart ass. And he has been very coherent behaving as
a fucking idiot for more than one decade. His senile dementia has had a long span of time.

Learn about GPS without relativity from the late MASTER Koobee Wublee.

[Laurence Clark Crossen]

Thanks for the reference. It looks good. I don't know how you can find the time or patience to read the relativist's comments!

[The Starmaker]

Laurence Clark Crossen wrote:
>
> On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 1:45:16 PM UTC-7, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > On Friday, September 19, 2014 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-3, Koobee Wublee wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Koobee Wublee gave a free lesson to everyone, while pnal (Paul Alsing) was the same imbecile 9 years ago as he's today.
> > The only thing that this retarded post are ONE LINERS, posing as a smart ass. And he has been very coherent behaving as
> > a fucking idiot for more than one decade. His senile dementia has had a long span of time.
> >
> > Learn about GPS without relativity from the late MASTER Koobee Wublee.
> > > >>>> DEMYSTIFICATION BEGINS <<<<
> > >
> > > The purpose of the GPS is to allow someone anywhere within the atmosphere of the earth to locate its own altitude, longitude, and latitude. To do so, the system consists of at least two dozen satellites where each one is required to note its own altitude, longitude, and latitude in some degree of accuracy. In addition, to allow reasonable designs to the GPS receivers, all satellite time is synchronized. Here, time does not mean clock frequency but a counter accumulated by an atomic clock. Pe
> > >

> > > >>>> DEMYSTIFICATION DONE FOR NOW <<<<
> > >
> > > Hope this helps. <shrug>
> Thanks for the reference. It looks good. I don't know how you can find the time or patience to read the relativist's comments!

All the girls in Argentina are ugly!


--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge
the unchallengeable.

[Richard Hertz]

TIP: Patience, maybe. One of my strengths. But methods accelerate searches. You have to use the Search window and choose any
topic or any poster in whom you're interested PLUS the year. Then, pick any thread that interest you.

For instance, if you want to learn how Dono persevered being an asshole for 17 years, just write:

"Dono 2006" or "Dono 2012". Change the year at will.

If you want to learn when Dono and prokaryotic started their kookfight, just write "Dono prokaryotic 2010°. Change the year at will.

Or put two or three posters plus a subject plus a year.

Not a rocket science, as you can see.

Try this "Dono cunt". The year is optional in any search.

You can go deeper than this, once you master this search technique.

Don't try "Paul Andersen 2003" or "Tom Roberts 2002". It's sad to observe their mental decline with the years.

[Laurence Clark Crossen]

You're too kind to them...

[Richard Hertz]

It's immoral to beat the fallen. They are punished enough by living its inferno.

[Laurence Clark Crossen]

It's like Plato said, we have to live on Earth when we slip up in heaven.

[Paul B. Andersen]

Den 04.06.2023 22:45, skrev Richard Hertz:
> On Friday, September 19, 2014 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-3, Koobee Wublee wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Koobee Wublee gave a free lesson to everyone, while pnal (Paul Alsing) was the same imbecile 9 years ago as he's today.
> The only thing that this retarded post are ONE LINERS, posing as a smart ass. And he has been very coherent behaving as
> a fucking idiot for more than one decade. His senile dementia has had a long span of time.
>
> Learn about GPS without relativity from the late MASTER Koobee Wublee.
>
>

>> The purpose of the GPS is to allow someone anywhere within the atmosphere of the earth to locate its own altitude, longitude, and latitude. To do so, the system consists of at least two dozen satellites where each one is required to note its own altitude, longitude, and latitude in some degree of accuracy. In addition, to allow reasonable designs to the GPS receivers, all satellite time is synchronized. Here, time does not mean clock frequency but a counter accumulated by an atomic clock. Periodically, each satellite broadcasts these four parameters downlink.
>>
>> For the GPS receiver, it does not know its own altitude, longitude, latitude, and its time according to the satellites. By acquiring the known parameters from four independent satellites, a set of four equations can be laid out. The receiver then solves the unknowns that become its own altitude, longitude, latitude, and time.
>>
>> ** c^2 (t - t1)^2 = (x - x1)^2 + (y - y1)^2 + (z - z1)^2
>> ** c^2 (t - t2)^2 = (x - x2)^2 + (y - y2)^2 + (z - z2)^2
>> ** c^2 (t - t3)^2 = (x - x3)^2 + (y - y3)^2 + (z - z3)^2
>> ** c^2 (t - t4)^2 = (x - x4)^2 + (y - y4)^2 + (z - z4)^2
>>
>> Where
>>
>> ** (t, x, y, z) = Unknown time and position of the receiver
>> ** (t1, x1, y1, z1) = Known time and position of the 1st satellite
>> ** c = speed of light

Where all the coordinates are in the non-rotating ECI frame.

One important point:
The receiver has only to know the GPS time t1 when the signal was
sent to know all the coordinates (t1, x1, y1, z1).
That is because the receiver knows the orbit of the satellite,
so the position of the satellite (x1, y1, z1) is a known function
of t1.

That means that the receiver only has to know the time of
emission of the signal from four satellites to solve the four
equations above, and find its GPS time t, and its position
in the ECI frame (x, y, z).

(This is in principle, it is a bit more complicated.
The speed of light isn't c, because of transmissions
through the ionosphere, and the satellite's orbit
may be different from the nominal. So measured corrections
has to be applied. These corrections are emitted from the
satellites and applied by the receiver.)

Of course the GPS time t1 reported by the satellite
must be correct within few ns.

Note that t1 is _not_ the SV clock, it is:
t = t_SV − ∆t_SV
where t is the time reported by the satellite,
t_SV is the satellite clock, and ∆t_SV is
the offset from correct GPS time.

The correction ∆t_SV is calculated by the receiver:
∆tSV = af0 + af1 (t − toc) + af2 (t − toc)2 + ∆tr
where
toc = the clock data reference time in seconds, the GPS system time when
the parameters af0, af1 and af2 were updated
af0 = the SV clock offset at the time toc, maximum value ca 1 ms
af1 = the SV clock rate error, (sec/sec)
af2 = the rate of change of the SV clock rate error, (sec/sec^2)
∆tr = the relativistic correction term, (seconds) This term is only
used when the satellite's orbit is eccentric.

All these correction parameters are emitted by the satellite.

But how are these parameters found?
Or in other words, how is the reported time t above
kept in sync with GPS time?

There are several monitor stations around the Earth.
These will track each satellite for 20 minutes typically
18-20 times each day, and from the collected data
the correction parameters can be uploaded to the satellites.

This is how the reported time t is kept in sync with GPS-time.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting to see that Richard Hertz is so ignorant
and naive that he thinks that GPS satellite clocks
are synchronized in the way dreamt up by Koobee Wublee!

>>
>> The issue now is how to synchronize the time among the satellites. Does one have to tweak each clock frequency to match that of the ground while being assembled? If so, it becomes an extremely expensive proposition with the potential payout of validating any hypothesis that says time will go faster as the altitude increases. Among these hypotheses includes general relativity, and self-styled physicists are not shy to trumpet the result.
>>
>> So, think about it for a moment. It is unreasonable to launch satellites where the time cannot be set to any value. Thus, even if the clock frequencies are exactly the same as that of the ground, one still needs to synchronize this time. To do so, it is merely a hardware-assisted software solution implementing some sorts of algorithm.
>>
>> To announce to the world its own time, each satellite merely has to add up the following three values.
>>
>> ** Dynamic count accumulated by an atomic clock or some sort where this counter would never have to be tampered with
>>
>> ** Static offset to bring the satellite time to desired time
>>
>> ** Dynamic offset to adjust every certain time interval if the atomic clock is too slow or too fast accumulating the dynamic count
>>
>> Where
>>
>> ** Broadcast time = dynamic count + static offset + dynamic offset
>>
>> There are many algorithms to allow for one to compute the static offset. One popular one is the IEEE1588 which is very similar to the NTP.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Time_Protocol
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol
>>
>> Say satellite A wants to synchronize its broadcast time with B. The following steps are what A and B should do.
>>
>> ** B sends a packet to A and notes the timestamp (T_B1) at the moment when the packet is sent, and A notes the moment when the packet is received with timestamp (T_A1).
>>
>> ** B sends what T_B1 is to A. At this moment, A knows what TB1 and TA1 are.
>>
>> ** A sends a packet to B and notes the timestamp (T_A2) at the moment when the packet is sent, and B notes the moment when the packet is received with timestamp (T_B2).
>>
>> ** B sends what T_B2 is to A. Now, A knows TA1, TB1, TA2, and TB2.
>>
>> From these four parameters, A can now compute its static offset to B's counter as well as its dynamic offset if its clock is too fast or too slow. Of course, this is the ideal situation. In real life, one has the delay time which must be estimated, and through many iterations, the desired accuracies in the static and the dynamic offsets can be achieved.

Hilarious, no? :-D

And Koobee Wublee was a real master in applying
the Schwarzschild metric:

>>
>> So, where does general relativity come into the design of the GPS? Let's examine the spacetime equation for the Schwarzschild metric where #2 is the observed spacetime by observers #1 and #3.
>>
>> ** c^2 dt1^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds12^2 = c^2 dt2^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds22^2
>> = c^2 dt3^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds32^2...
>>
>> Where
>>
>> ** (dt1, d[s12]) = Observation of observer #1
>> ** ds12^2 = dr12^2 / (1 - 2 U2) + r12^2 dO12^2
>> ** dO1^2 = cos^2(Latitude12) dLongitude12^2 + dLatitude12^2
>> ** U2 = Gravitational potential at #2
>> ** [s12] = Position vector of #2 as observed by #1
>>
>> Notice U2 has nothing to do with the observers #1 and #3. It is strictly a parameter of the observed. The above equation can then be rewritten as follows.
>>
>> ** c^2 dt2^2 (1 - 2 U2) = c^2 dt1^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds12^2
>> = c^2 dt3^2 (1 - 2 U2) - ds32^2...
>>
>> Where
>>
>> ** ds22 = 0
>>
>> This is the basis why spacetime or the proper time thing is invariant because the local time flow is always invariant. Since U2, the gravitational potential at #2, is invariant, spacetime physics can never describe how time is affected by the local gravitational potential of the observer (only the observed). General relativity is just absolutely pure nonsense, and the GPS works because of the ingenuities of the engineers involved and not some self-styled physicists peddling their bullshit known as General Relativity where Einstein the nitwit, the plagiarist, and the liar is deified for their new religion.
>>
>>

>> Hope this helps. <shrug>

Did it help? :-D

https://paulba.no/pdf/GPS_clock_rate.pdf

--
Paul

https://paulba.no/