How smart are U.S./Russian Sonobuoys?

[Tom Brennan @]

From uunet!rosevax.rosemount.com!tom (Tom Brennan)

Greetings and Salutations,

Does anyone know just how smart U.S. and Soviet sonobuoys are? Are they
just able to tell the plane/helicopter that there is a sub x distance
away or are they smart enough to keep track of their orientation and
give a bearing as well?

I realize that a crude way to keep track of orientation is to put a
magnetic compass in the buoy and do it that way. The more I
think about it the more complex the problem becomes. You would have
to correct for the difference between magnetic north and true north
and that would be dependent on where the buoy was dropped. There also be
some oscillation and/or rotation due to ocean currents and being dropped
from a couple of hundred feet. I would think that this would especially
be a problem with the multi-depth sonobuoys. If the ocean currents were
traveling in different directions at different depths then you would have
conflicting forces at different depths. Like I said, the more I
thought about it the more complex the problem becomes. There probably
is some simple way that to do all this and I just can't figure it out ( I
only have two brain cells left and sometimes they just don't work in
sync ). So how do sonobuoys keep track of their orientation if in fact
they do?

I read something several millennium ago that a fisherman had caught a Russian
version of a sonobuoy in his net. When they took it apart they found that
it was a direct copy of a U.S. version. They had even copied in the bugs with
that particular version. You would think that if they can reverse engineer
something like an intergrated circuit from a sonobuoy that they would find the
bugs and correct them. Oh well, I guess thats the difference between reverse
engineering and copying something.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm playing Larry Bond's wargame called
Harpoon by mail and I am supposed to be a fearless American sub captain.
Depending on how smart sonobuoys are will tell me how deep in guano I've
buried myself. Hey, its five ships and two helicopters against one U.S.
sub with me and my limited mental capabilities at the wheel........ what do
you expect?

Thanks,

Tom

* Tom Brennan * Question: If Christopher Columbus *
* Rosemount Inc. * had discovered America from the *
* 12001 Technology Dr. * west, would the people living in *
* Eden Prairie, MN * Mid-West be living in the Mid-East *
* 55344 * now? *
* t...@rosemount.com * *

[Henry Spencer]

From he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From uunet!rosevax.rosemount.com!tom (Tom Brennan)

>I realize that a crude way to keep track of orientation is to put a
>magnetic compass in the buoy and do it that way. The more I
>think about it the more complex the problem becomes. You would have
>to correct for the difference between magnetic north and true north
>and that would be dependent on where the buoy was dropped. There also be
>some oscillation and/or rotation due to ocean currents and being dropped

>from a couple of hundred feet...

No, it's not a problem, think about it. You put the compass in the sensing
head, not in the surface portion, so it reports which way the sensors are
facing. Use a flux-gate compass so there are no moving parts, which gets
rid of any problems with oscillations and the like (it reports continuously,
so you know which way the sensors were facing when they received the signal
you care about). And the difference between magnetic and true north,
although it does vary over the surface of the Earth, is close enough to
constant over a sonobuoy pattern that a single correction, derived from
sensors on the aircraft or even entered by hand, should do. The sensors
in a little sonobuoy head probably aren't *that* precise about direction
in the first place.

Magnetic compasses actually are a perfectly adequate way of determining
direction if you either (a) care only about relative directions in a small
area, rather than absolute directions relative to land masses, or (b) have
enough smarts (and enough idea of where you are) to apply corrections.
--
GCC 2.0 is to C as SVR4 is to Unix. | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
-Dick Dunn | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry

[Josh Rovero]

From rov...@oc.nps.navy.mil (Josh Rovero)

Most sonobuoys (ours and theirs) are relatively dumb.

The simplest (or dumbest) are literally a hydrophone hooked up to
a radio transmitter. Some have multi-hydrophone arrays used for
vertical and horizontal beamforming or direction idication.

*Most* processing is still done in the aircraft, not the buoy.

--
Josh Rovero (rov...@oc.nps.navy.mil) | or Internet 53...@cc.nps.navy.mil
Department of Oceanography, Code OC/Rv | Bitnet 5346p@NAVPGS
Naval Postgraduate School |
Monterey, CA 93943 (408) 646-2084 |

[Mark Benson 5-4228]

From ben...@colorado.med.ge.com (Mark Benson 5-4228)

uunet!rosevax.rosemount.com!tom (Tom Brennan) writes:

>I read something several millennium ago that a fisherman had caught a Russian
>version of a sonobuoy in his net. When they took it apart they found that
>it was a direct copy of a U.S. version. They had even copied in the bugs with
>that particular version. You would think that if they can reverse engineer
>something like an intergrated circuit from a sonobuoy that they would find
>the bugs and correct them. Oh well, I guess thats the difference between
>reverse engineering and copying something.

Back in 1984, in my tenure with TI, the story went that the Soviets had
reverse engineered by exactly duplicating the masks from the chips. This
must have been by some photographic process. The 'bugs' you refer to are
actually the little Texas Instruments logo on the chip - referred to by
employees as the 'TI bug'. Don't believe any copyright / patent enforcement
action could be taken at the time...

--
Mark Benson ben...@med.ge.com
GE Medical Systems
--> Opinions expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employers,
--> past or present.

[Steven.Schultz]

From Steven.Schultz <Steven....@mixcom.mixcom.com>

Well, I don't have a whole lot, but here goes. The first U.S.S.R.
sonobuoy was the RGB-56 which came into service in 1956. We first saw
it in 1959. It was released from an altitude of 500 to 1,000 ft. 152
to 305M, at a speed of 173 m.p.h. (277 km/h) or less. It was deployed
by parachute after launch from the ASW craft, and although had enough
battery power for 4 or 5 days, the buoy was designed to scuttle in 24
hours. It was about 48 in. (1.2 m) long, 8.75 in. (222.25mm) and
weighed 60 pounds (27.3 kg.) The follow on was the RGB-64. It was
smaller, as well as omnidirectional. Later ones indentified are the
BM-1, which became operational in the late '60's, and the type 75,
displayed by the D.O.D. in 1988. The BM-1 was 50.5 in. (1.28 m) long
and 6 in. (152.4 mm) in diameter. It is similiar in the electronics to
the U.S. Navy AN/SSQ-41B. They also use a fixed bottom moored
submarine acoustic detection system, which was given the designation
MGS-407M. ( Mashina Gidroakusticheskaya Svyaz', or hydroacoustic
communications machine.) It has a pop-up antenna that transmits data
to a shore facility. These have been deployed off U.S. Coasts. They
also use a dipping sonar, a RGAB ( Radio Gidroakusticheskaya
Aviatsionnaya Buy, radio hydroacoustic machine buoy.) It has a
ten-element system that is lowered from the buoy. The British use the
Plessey Type 195 dipping sonar on their Westland Lynx, and type 32
buoys. Our Sikorsky S-70L, SH-60B, and SH-60F Seahawks have Bendix
AQS-13F dipping sonars, and two major types of sonobuoys, Type-As, and
dwarf DIFAR. We also have sonobuoys on Lockheed P-3C Orions, S3-A/B
Vikings, and Sikorsky SH-3D Sea kings, and OrKaman SH-2F LAMPS I
Seasprite. The Russians have them on Beriev Be-40 Mermaids, Tupolev
Tu-142 Bear-F/J, Ilyushin Il-38 Mays, Beriev Be-12 Mails, Kamov
Ka-27/Ka-29 Helix, Ka-25 Hormone-A. They all also carry M.A.D.
systems.

--
Steven....@mixcom.com
Leader, Military and Arms topic, Hobbies Conference, Exec-PC BBS (414)789-4210

"Eternal peace lasts only until the next war."-Old Russian Proverb

[SJ Roc D'Arcy, MBP]

From bphd...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SJ Roc D'Arcy, MBP)

I'm not sure if it was mentioned or not, but isn't one of the main uses for
a sonobuoy to provide the active pings that others can listen two. I
believe it has rudementary abilities, but wouldn't it mainly be used with
the likes of a dipping sonar from a helo?

I asume that there exsit a more permanent and more complex sonobuoy than
that the choppers use when tracking subs (ei the SOSUS system). How large
are sonobuoys? I always thought they were much smaller than the standard
Mark 48.

SJRD

[Suicidal Freshman]

From yuq...@bvc.edu (Suicidal Freshman)

In article <1992Apr15....@cbnews.cb.att.com>, bphd...@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (SJ Roc D'Arcy, MBP) writes:

> I believe it has rudementary abilities, but wouldn't it mainly be used with
> the likes of a dipping sonar from a helo?

P-3 can't carry one of those and dipping sonar has a very limited range, so you
have dip, take it up, go somewhere else and dip, take it up, go somewhere else,
where as you can monitoring a area with a few sonarbouyes.

SF
bvc

--
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