688 collisions
ik...@amherst.edu
From ik...@amherst.edu
I just saw a story on the late-night news about the USS Baton Rouge colliding
with another ship off the coast of Murmansk. Details were slim, but I assume
that the ship that the 688 collided with was from the Russian/CIS navy. Does
anyone on the net have any information about it? There was some mention of the
12-mile territorial limit as far as violating Russian territory was concerned.
Mouse
From Mouse <mgj...@cs.vu.nl>
ik...@amherst.edu writes:
>that the ship that the 688 collided with was from the Russian/CIS navy. Does
Well I've been wondering about this incident, I saw it on CNN and
thought how can one sub hit another sub in the middle of the ocean!
It's like, you be walking in the middle of the desert all by yourself
and bumping in to someone.
It's my guess that the USS Baton Rouge was on an intelligence
gathering mission of some sort, and that she was getting too close
to something and the CIS sub tried to stop her from getting it....
Or something like that.
I could be way off base here, but I find it very weird that 2 subs
can hit each other.
Anyone else know anyhing about this incident, or were those two just
playing wargames and the CIS sub got so mad about losing, that she
rammed her opponent?? Who know's?
-----
Maurice Blok
Free University of Amsterdam
- Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Unknown
From Mike.Tighe
ik...@amherst.edu writes:
The incident occurred on Feb 11, underwater in the Barents Sea, near the
Arctic Circle. No injuries were reported, but both subs suffered some
damage. It indeed was the Baton Rouge. The CIS claims the sub was inside
CIS territory, specifically about 5 miles inside, near the entrance to the
Kola Bay. This is all I know.
--
Mike Tighe, (214) 497-4206
Robert Wunderlick
From wun...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Wunderlick)
In sci.military, ik...@amherst.edu writes:
>From ik...@amherst.edu
>
>I just saw a story on the late-night news about the USS Baton Rouge colliding
>with another ship off the coast of Murmansk. Details were slim, but I assume
Thw Washington Post rep[orted that the BAton rouge collided with a Sierra.
The US claims that BR was outside the 12 mile limit, with the purpose
of monitoring fleet activities at a local bottleneck of sub traffic.
Bob Wunderlick
Naval Surface Warfare Center, Carderock Division
(Formerly the David Taylor Research Center)
Bethesda, MD 20084-5000
Jon C. R. Bennett
From "Jon C. R. Bennett" <jb...@andrew.cmu.edu>
mgj...@cs.vu.nl (Mouse) writes:
> Well I've been wondering about this incident, I saw it on CNN and
> thought how can one sub hit another sub in the middle of the ocean!
> It's like, you be walking in the middle of the desert all by yourself
> and bumping in to someone.
> It's my guess that the USS Baton Rouge was on an intelligence
> gathering mission of some sort, and that she was getting too close
> to something and the CIS sub tried to stop her from getting it....
> Or something like that.
if you are a sub, and dont want to be heard by another sub, the best place
to be, relative to that sub, is directly behind them since you are
screened by their propeler noise. if the sub in front slows or stops
suddenly........ **WAMM**. the scene in Hunt for Red October where the Red
October cuts her engines and turns gives a pretty good picture of what
could have happened to the Baton Rouge.
jon
Thomas R Balent
From t...@cbosgd.att.com (Thomas R Balent)
In article <1992Feb21.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com> Mouse <mgj...@cs.vu.nl> writes:
>
>...thought how can one sub hit another sub in the middle of the ocean!
>I could be way off base here, but I find it very weird that 2 subs
>can hit each other.
>
It is not as unusual as you would think. What is unusual is that the
US Navy reported it. Subs are hard to find (that is one of their
qualities) and that means by surface ships, aircraft and other subs.
I do not know the particulars in this case, but the cat-and-mouse
game between the Russians and US has been going on for years. In the
mid 70's I personally saw a fast attack (USS Queenfish) which looked
like someone had gouged large chunks out of her superstructure. It was
the result of some other ships screw hitting the boat while submerged
(I don't know if the other ship was a sub or surface ship). A friend
who was member of the crew at the time was only allowed to say they were
submerged off the eastern coast of Russia when it happened (I saw the
ship in port in Guam when she came in).
Not too many years ago an US FBM came near the surface out in the
Pacific and rammed a Japanese freighter (by accident I hope) and
the freighter sank - the sub did not stick around to help the
survivors (this strained Japanese/American relations).
tom balent
Henry Spencer
From he...@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
>From Mike.Tighe
>... The CIS claims the sub was inside
>CIS territory, specifically about 5 miles inside, near the entrance to the
>Kola Bay...
One should bear in mind that in certain areas, the US and the USSR/CIS do
not agree on where territorial waters begin. (If memory serves, the US
thinks the limit is a strip precisely following the coastline, while the
Russians historically have drawn lines across the mouths of certain bays.)
--
The X Window system is not layered, and | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
it was not designed. -Shane P. McCarron | he...@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
Scott Lurndal
From sc...@starlite.convergent.com (Scott Lurndal)
In article <1992Feb21.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com>, mgj...@cs.vu.nl (Mouse) writes:
|> Well I've been wondering about this incident, I saw it on CNN and
|> thought how can one sub hit another sub in the middle of the ocean!
|> It's like, you be walking in the middle of the desert all by yourself
|> and bumping in to someone.
My guess, if the CIS sub was a boomer, that the USS Baton Rouge was
trailing the boomer to determine its patrol pattern, and while the
CIS sub was performing a maneuver to clear its baffles (which Clancy
refers to as a "Crazy Ivan"), there was contact between the two
submarines.
"clear its baffles" - Sonar performance to the rear of a
submarine is non-optimal. Soviet missile submarines will randomly
perform a circling maneuver to determine whether or not they are
being followed. If a 688-class (or other fast attack boat) is
following too close and cannot stop fast enough, it could
strike the boomer.
This is all guesswork.
Richard Pierson
From fi...@iscp.bellcore.com (Richard Pierson)
The term "Baffle Cleaner" is a term that is used for newbys
(simitlar to arty -> report cleaner)
A submarine is effectively "deaf" from the stern, this is due
to noise and turbulence generated by the screw in an albacore
style design (some of the older boats had twin screws< albacore
refers to the skipjack hull shape). during normal operations you
stream out a BQR-19 sonar array from the port sternplane. This
is in essence a micorphone (or Hydrophone-waterphone) and
listen behind you with it. During maneuvers of greater than 10deg
IN ANY DIRECTION the 19 is reeled in and stowed. During this
time any "trailers" will close distance, The boat normally turns
port 30 deg or so (capt pref) and listens aft with the hull mounted
arrays, then turns to stbd 60 deg and listens with the stbd hull
mounted arrays, this is referred to as "clearing or cleaning the
Baffles" (meaning your dead area).
It gets even more interesting on a fast ascent from say below 1000ft
on an emergency blow when you are ascending at 200-300 feet per
minute and there is so much noise from the 5000lb air blowing the
tanks dry that you cant hear anything and both attack and obs
periscopes are being used to look directly above for "no shapes
no shadows" . If there is something up there you're going to go
right through it (remember that sails are made for punching through
12feet of pack ice, so you can imagine what it will do to another
ship.
On a fast attack I was on we had a "problem" (didnt make the papers)
and had to have a tiger team flown into adak alaska to replace the
entire sail with all its gear (scopes.ecm.nav.sat,snorkel etc) it
was not a pretty sight, but we survived. It happens and has happened
more than you realize I know of at leas 6.
Beke
From Pekka....@lut.fi (Beke)
In article <1992Feb21.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com> mgj...@cs.vu.nl (Mouse) writes:
Anyone else know anyhing about this incident, or were those two just
playing wargames and the CIS sub got so mad about losing, that she
rammed her opponent?? Who know's?
The Finnish newspapers wrote that the US sub was at the periscope depth
and the Russian sub was coming to surface when it bumped to US sub.
--
+ internet: rii...@kannel.lut.fi ++ Pekka Riiali +
+ irc: Beke ham: OH5LUQ@OH5RDT ++ Laserkatu 2 D 12 +
+ The evil that men do lives on and on.. ++ SF-53850 LPR FINLAND +
Ward C. Page
From pa...@cod.nosc.mil (Ward C. Page)
In article <1992Feb22.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com> jb...@andrew.cmu.edu (Jon C. R. Bennett) writes:
>
>if you are a sub, and dont want to be heard by another sub, the best place
>to be, relative to that sub, is directly behind them since you are
>screened by their propeler noise. if the sub in front slows or stops
>suddenly........ **WAMM**.
Subs periodically make manuevers to 'clear the baffles'. This involves
turning in various directions to see if anyone is in your blind spots. The
Russians have a manueuver called the Crazy Ivan which is like driving around
a highway cloverleaf. If you are following too close to a Russian sub when
they pull a Crazy Ivan you could be in trouble. The cat and mouse game is
played all the time out in the big blue.
Ward Page
NCCOSC/NRaD
pa...@cod.nosc.mil
--
Ward Page
Naval Ocean Systems Center
San Diego, CA
pa...@cod.nosc.mil
Mike Fester
From island!fes...@uunet.uu.net (Mike Fester)
In article <1992Feb22.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com> t...@cbosgd.att.com (Thomas R Balent) writes:
>
>From t...@cbosgd.att.com (Thomas R Balent)
>
>In article <1992Feb21.0...@cbnews.cb.att.com> Mouse <mgj...@cs.vu.nl> writes:
>>
>>...thought how can one sub hit another sub in the middle of the ocean!
>>I could be way off base here, but I find it very weird that 2 subs
>>can hit each other.
>>
>
>Not too many years ago an US FBM came near the surface out in the
>Pacific and rammed a Japanese freighter (by accident I hope) and
>the freighter sank - the sub did not stick around to help the
>survivors (this strained Japanese/American relations).
A couple years ago, a Japanese Self-Defense Force submarine struck a civilian
cruiser while surfaced. The the civilian craft sank almost immediately and the
Japanese submarine crew did nothing to help rescue the passengers, even though
they remained in the area. If memory serves, about 24 people drowned. The
Japanese just don't seem to have much luck with anyone's subs.
--
Disclaimer:
My opinions are mine and mine alone (though you may lease them by the hour).
They are logical, incisive, well-constructed, and irrefutable.
The proof of this is left as an exercise to the reader.
Ted Kim (Random Dude)
From t...@pram.CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (Random Dude))
In article <1992Feb24....@cbnews.cb.att.com> fi...@iscp.bellcore.com (Richard Pierson) writes:
>During normal operations you
>stream out a BQR-19 sonar array from the port sternplane. This
>is in essence a micorphone (or Hydrophone-waterphone) and
>listen behind you with it. During maneuvers of greater than 10deg
>IN ANY DIRECTION the 19 is reeled in and stowed.
Isn't BQR-19 a MAST-mounted cylindrical short-range nav sonar for
SSBNs?
The description seems more like a towed array sonar, maybe BQR-15 or
maybe TB-16 or TB-23?
-ted
--
Ted Kim Internet: t...@pram.cs.ucla.edu
UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek
3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (310) 206-8696
Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (310) 825-2273
Roger Keating
From cg10...@icogsci3.ucsd.edu (Roger Keating)
And I recall that a few years ago off LA, a USN sub tangled a tug
boats tow line and before the tug crew was able to disengage the
line, the sub pulled the tug under the waves. Bad PR for the USN.
I think this may have been the same sub that participated in filming
HFRO.
Roger Keating
rkea...@ucsd.edu
kea...@nosc.mil