Credibility of Marcinko ("Rogue Warrior")
Brian Hook
From Brian Hook <b...@beach.cis.ufl.edu>
Richard Marcinko's book "Rogue Warrior" has come up as a reference on
various SEAL Team topics. I've read the book, and it is very fascinating,
but I would like to know if Marcinko is in fact credible. I don't like
quoting things from books that turn out to be another "Chickenhawk".
Brian
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// Brian Hook "Stop! Stop in the name of all that
// ( b...@beach.cis.ufl.edu ) which does not suck!" - Butthead
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TSCH...@delphi.com
From TSCH...@delphi.com
The book is indeed very interesting. I would be reluctant to place too much
confidence in all of Marcinko's allegations about the navy. Some of it is
true but a lot is exagerated by the fact that he is (or was) in jail on
some procurement fraud charges. Kelly Orr in "Brav Men, Dark Waters" descrivbes
the background of this but it goes far beyond the minor things Marcinko
mentions in his book. All in all, I'd give more credence to the technical
stuff than to the politics, Marcinko has some of the same "mistreated genius"
syndrome that afflicted Charlie
Beckwith.
Tom Schoene
COREY ALAN SOLOTOROVSKY
From csol...@cwis.unomaha.edu (COREY ALAN SOLOTOROVSKY)
I just got out of the Marine Corps after seven years of service. You
may not place much confidence in Demo Dick, but I certainly would. I, too,
read his book. He and many people like him, tend to "rock the boat", and end
up getting screwed. When you reach the status and tenure that Marcinko had,
the only way they can screw you is by going all the way. Most people who
have spent time in the military will tell you that they loved it; all except
for the "games". The games are those beureaucratic bullshit standards enforced
by those who are afraid to question them. That is exactly where Dick got
screwed. If I was physically capable, I would follow Dick Marcinko into any
situation. People don't get to the places that Marcinko has been by being
a schmuck. They get there for performing in ways that no one else can
duplicate. Hence, above and beyond the call. He has my utmost respect.
Travis Corcoran
From Travis Corcoran <corc...@dewey.icd.teradyne.com>
In article <CI6ts...@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Brian Hook <b...@beach.cis.ufl.edu> writes:
>
> Richard Marcinko's book "Rogue Warrior" has come up as a reference on
> various SEAL Team topics. I've read the book, and it is very fascinating,
> but I would like to know if Marcinko is in fact credible. I don't like
> quoting things from books that turn out to be another "Chickenhawk".
I've read both books. I've heard before that Marcinko might not be
the most credible writer, but I've never heard any allegations
about...umm...what's-his-name who wrote _Chickenhawk_. The phrasing
above seems to imply that it is an accepted fact that the author in
question is not trust-worthy. What's the scoop?
[mod note - the author of _Chickenhawk_ is Robert Mason. Perhaps what the
other poster is refering to is that Mason spent some time in prison after
he was discharged on drug charges
Steve]
--
__
TJIC (Travis J.I. Corcoran) TJ...@icd.teradyne.com
opinions(TJIC) != opinions(employer(TJIC))
"Buy a rifle, encrypt your data, and wait for the Revolution!"
Terry L Rooker
From Terry L Rooker <ter...@smiley.mitre.org>
In article <CIpB4...@law7.daytonoh.ncr.com>,
Unfortunately, the characteristics you describe are good for a junior
officer (in the Navy that is 01-04) who is trying to motivate is men,
but in an organization such as the SEALs such behavior is nearly
intolerable. You must also remember that a CAPt's job is to work with
the system, not try to shake it up for personnel benefit. Marcinko's
book is suspect because it is self-serving, i.e. he is using it to
make his defense. Many SEALs that I knew personally (and therefore
have some sense of their veracity) considered Marcinko a fool. In a
business where the very existence of the organization is obscured,
going public such as he has done indicates how little he really
understands. In my experience, 75% of those who brag about Naval
Special Warfare work either weren't a SEAL or weren't one for long;
while the remaining 25% weren't very good. In other words, if someone
is talking a lot about being a SEAL, then he was not one of the good
ones. I NEVER met a group of individuals who were as closed mouthed
as the SEALs. Part of it is cultural with the indoctrination starting
at BUDS and I believe that part of it is that they select for that
characteristic.
Ralph Sporay
From Ralph Sporay <spo...@admii.arl.army.mil>
>From Terry L Rooker <ter...@smiley.mitre.org>
>>In article <CIpB4...@law7.daytonoh.ncr.com>,
>>COREY ALAN SOLOTOROVSKY <csol...@cwis.unomaha.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I just got out of the Marine Corps after seven years of service. You
>>may not place much confidence in Demo Dick, but I certainly would. I, too,
>>read his book. He and many people like him, tend to "rock the boat", and en!
>>up getting screwed. When you reach the status and tenure that Marcinko had,!
>>the only way they can screw you is by going all the way. Most people who
>>have spent time in the military will tell you that they loved it; all except!
>>for the "games". The games are those beureaucratic bullshit standards enfor!
>>by those who are afraid to question them. That is exactly where Dick got
>>screwed.
Remember you read his side of the story, and yes its hard to burn someone
with his "status" but the Navy went after him because he was way out of
control.
>>If I was physically capable, I would follow Dick Marcinko into any
>>situation.
Really?
>>People don't get to the places that Marcinko has been by being a schmuck.
Many do, look at Pvt Gleason former SGM 1st SFG(A), a highly decorated NCO
whom distinguished himself on RECON patrols in S.E. Asia now serving time
in Ft. Leavenworth. Proves my point that even if your hard as a dog you
can melt in Patpong or Soi Cowboy.
>>They get there for performing in ways that no one else can duplicate.
>>Hence, above and beyond the call. He has my utmost respect.
I'm not surprised you feel this way about him many people do it's called
hero worship. Geez look at all them medals.
>Unfortunately, the characteristics you describe are good for a junior
>officer (in the Navy that is 01-04) who is trying to motivate is men,
>but in an organization such as the SEALs such behavior is nearly
>intolerable.
In the SF community we call it "Ranger Attitude".
>You must also remember that a CAPt's job is to work with
>the system, not try to shake it up for personnel benefit. Marcinko's
>book is suspect because it is self-serving, i.e. he is using it to
>make his defense. Many SEALs that I knew personally (and therefore
>have some sense of their veracity) considered Marcinko a fool. In a
>business where the very existence of the organization is obscured,
>going public such as he has done indicates how little he really
>understands.
It almost proves the Navy's case against him. Even the title of his book
suggests wrong doing, Webster's "a dishonest or worthless person".
>In my experience, 75% of those who brag about Naval
>Special Warfare work either weren't a SEAL or weren't one for long;
>while the remaining 25% weren't very good. In other words, if someone
>is talking a lot about being a SEAL, then he was not one of the good
>ones.
True, but the SOF community is small and its easy to tell who's bullsh*ting
just ask the right questions.
>I NEVER met a group of individuals who were as closed mouthed
>as the SEALs. Part of it is cultural with the indoctrination starting
>at BUDS and I believe that part of it is that they select for that
>characteristic.
True for the outsider, but if your part of their band they are more open.
Though some never open up its like some competitive thing with them.
I refuse to buy the book and read it after browsing through a friends copy.
His description of the "Dirty Name" is amusing. His requirement for team
members to bench-press 500lbs is a fantasy, but then he contradicts himself
by saying it was 450lbs another fantasy. Then there's the pistol match with
DELTA which he can't admit that he lost. And he goes on and on...
For a more credible source read "Brave Men Dark Waters" by Orr Kelly I
hear its good.
spo...@arl.army.mil
**************************************************************************
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Gene A. Kennedy
From "Gene A. Kennedy" <g...@n5abi.hou.tx.us>
Travis Corcoran <corc...@dewey.icd.teradyne.com> writes:
> I've read both books. I've heard before that Marcinko might not be
> the most credible writer, but I've never heard any allegations
> about...umm...what's-his-name who wrote _Chickenhawk_. The phrasing
> above seems to imply that it is an accepted fact that the author in
> question is not trust-worthy. What's the scoop?
>
> [mod note - the author of _Chickenhawk_ is Robert Mason. Perhaps what the
> other poster is refering to is that Mason spent some time in prison after
> he was discharged on drug charges
>
> Steve]
>
Or perhaps he is refering to comments I have made to the effect
that I and others who flew helicopters in Viet Nam find Mason
somewhat less than credible.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gene Kennedy - Ham Radio Operator, N5ABI -
g...@n5abi.hou.tx.us
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Hook
From Brian Hook <b...@beach.cis.ufl.edu>
In article <CIt3...@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Ralph Sporay <spo...@admii.arl.army.mil> writes:
>In my experience, 75% of those who brag about Naval
>Special Warfare work either weren't a SEAL or weren't one for long;
>while the remaining 25% weren't very good. In other words, if someone
>is talking a lot about being a SEAL, then he was not one of the good
>ones.
> True, but the SOF community is small and its easy to tell who's bullsh*ting
> just ask the right questions.
The SOF community isn't THAT small -- it's not like everyone's on a first
name basis with each other. :-) As for bullshitting -- well, there are
folks IN SpecOps groups who do their fair share of bullshitting, although
there are a lot less than you would expect -- bragging isn't "cool" within
the SF community.
However, I do agree with your sentiment. This guy I knew in the Army
stated, when I asked him what unit he served in, replied, "I'm a comm
officer in Delta, but you aren't supposed to know that <wink> <wink> My
cover is in the 82nd AB as a signals officer."
To which I said *cough*bullshit*....
Brian
--
--------------
Brian Hook "Computer graphics: the only field in
b...@cis.ufl.edu computer science if it looks right,
then it IS right." -- paraphrase