Caseless and Flechette Ammo
Rogers Huw
From Rogers Huw <rog...@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp>
I picked up a thread on Caseless vs Cased ammunition in rec.arts.movies.
I would like to know more about the G11 discussed in the quoted article
below - please post as I am sure others are interested.
In a similar vein, I am interested in military use of flechette rounds.
I remember hearing some years ago that these would revolutionise small
arms, and would likely be adopted as standard ammo due to their increased
range, lethality, and accuracy. Similar claims have been made for caseless.
None of this has happened, why not? AFAIK we are still stuck with technology
that hasn't changed much since the 1800s.
In article <1993May1...@usho72.hou281.chevron.com> hh...@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock) writes:
>From: hh...@usho72.hou281.chevron.com (T.M.Haddock)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies
>Subject: Re: ALIEN FAQ v1.2 - Caseless Ammo Facts
>Message-ID: <1993May1...@usho72.hou281.chevron.com>
>Date: 12 May 93 19:47:18 GMT
>References: <1saedt...@escargot.xx.rmit.OZ.AU> <WR5908.93...@forseti.albany.edu> <1993May08.0...@physics.unr.edu> <C6s6I...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> <C6tn4...@NCoast.ORG> <16BCBD8C3...@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de>
>Organization: Chevron
>
> I apologize for the lack of r.a.m. content, but it's time for some FACTS.
> Even more info can be found over on the SCI.MILITARY newsgroup.
>
>I108...@dbstu1.rz.tu-bs.de (Hanno Foest) writes:
>>cm...@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) writes:
>>> arn...@pyramid.unr.edu (Bruce M Arnold) writes:
>>>>
>>>> What is "caseless ammo" anyway?
>>>
>>> Actually for a lot of reasons it DOESN'T make sense:
>
> That's simply because you don't know how it works.
>
> The G11 uses a rotating cylinderical chamber. The 50rd magazine lies
> parallel along the top of the barrel with the rounds facing down. The
> chamber rotates 90 deg so that its is vertical and a fresh round is
> fed in. The chamber then rotates back 90 deg to line up horizontally
> with the barrel and the round's primer is ignited by a firing pin.
> Almost the entire round is consumed or expelled through the barrel
> during the firing process. The chamber then rotates back for a fresh
> round. Any residue or dud round is pushed out the bottom through an
> "unloading port" when the fresh round enters.
>
>
>>> Since there's no case, and no ejector to grab and remove it, how do
>>> you eject a dud round? A: You take the gun APART, as in the example
>>> of the German HK11.
>>
>> Why not? If it's easy enough... (I don't know if it is)
>
> No disassembly required. There is a "Charging Knob" that can be
> turned by hand to load/unload/clear the weapon. During firing, any
> dud round is pushed out by the new round entering. (See above.)
>
>
>>> Since there's no case to expand in the chamber and seal off the
>>> combustion gases, how do you keep gas from blowing back into the
>>> action and the firer's eyes? A: The gun has SEALS like a CAR.
>>> Of course when you blow an engine seal, you usually don't get blinded.
>>
>> Is this likely to happen? If the gun is designed properly, I don't
>> think so. After all, I don't worry if (e.g.) the barrel of any gun will
>> be blown when I'm shooting, although that is _possible_. I have to rely
>> on the skill of the engineer who designed this gun.
>
> Right, the gun has been designed to protect the shooter. There is no
> "action" as in typical rifles. The rotating chamber is buried within
> the gun and the shooter is shielded by the rest of the gun. Of course,
> nothing is 100% as even in "normal" actions, case separation and blown
> cases and the resulting injuries are not uncommon.
>
>
>>> Without a case to provide mechanical strength, how do you keep rounds
>>> from breaking, chipping, or disentigrating?
>>> A: I don't know, YOU tell ME.
>>
>> The propellant has the properties of hard plastic (with the bullet
>> embedded). The cases are shipped only inside ready-to-use magazines
>> which are thrown away after use (a detail on the G11 I don't like).
>
> Right, the propellant has additives that harden and protect it. The
> bullet is embedded and the whole round is a rectangle measuring about
> 1.25" long by .25" square. BTW, the propellant is closer to being an
> explosive rather than smokeless gunpowder.
>
> The magazines aren't thrown away after use. They can be reloaded but
> currently not by the troops in the field. Regular magazines are "thrown
> away" during fire fights anyway. Look at these stats. Given a "weapon
> system" weight limit of 7.35 kg or 16.17 lbs you can have a:
>
> G3 loaded (20 rds) + 80 rounds in 4 mags
> M16 loaded (30 rds) + 210 rounds in 7 mags
> G11 loaded (50 rds) + 500 rounds in 10 mags
>
> Nope, not too much magazine reloading is expected with the G11. ;)
>
>
>>> Without the case as a heatsink, how do you avoid "cookoffs" due to the
>>> contact between the hot chamber and the propellant, especially since
>>> you can get accidental firing even WITH the case? A: It's TOUGH.
>>
>> Depends only on the type of propellant you use. There are some you can't
>> ignite only with heat and without a primer.
>
> Again, its the additives that protect the round from extremely high
> temperatures and prevents "cook offs".
>
>
>>> Since there's no case and no ejection, where does the primer go after
>>> the round is fired? If there's no metal protected primer, do you get
>>> accidental discharges? Or do you have residue left in the chamber and
>>> barrel? A: I don't know.
>
> (See above firing description.) There is no "metal-protected" primer
> in conventional ammo either as any sharp object striking the rear of a
> loaded cartridge will ignite it. The metal case holds it's primer just
> as the hardened plastic-like caseless ammo holds its primer. There are
> all-plastic shotgun shells on the market and have been for years.
>
>
>>> The Germans SAY they solved the problems, but conveniently the project
>>> has been shelved due to reunification costs.
>>
>> The development of the G11 (HK11) is READY. Germany only didn't replace
>> the standard assault rifle of the Bundeswehr, the G3, with the G11 due to
>> reunification costs. But some border guard unit is already using the G11.
>
> Right, the G11 passed all of the German Army's testing. The German
> Parliment has to issue a "Permit for Fielding" before the G11 can
> start replacing the G3. Due to budget limitations brought on by the
> reunification, this action has been delayed indefinitely.
>
>
>> To sum up, it's a neat idea. That's about it.
>
> Hah, they probably said the same thing when the first "cased" ammo
> came out! :)
>
>
> Another significant advantage:
> The G11 has a high rate of fire - 2000 rounds a minute. In its 3-round
> burst mode, it takes less than 60 milliseconds for the last bullet to
> leave the barrel - this is before any recoil is felt by the shooter.
> Thus eliminating any recoil-induced aiming error and insuring a tighter
> 3-rd pattern around the point of aim. This greatly increases its first
> shot kill capabilities. This, added to the same flat ballistics of the
> 5.56 NATO round, has led some to call the G11 a "point and hit" weapon
> out to 300 meters.
>
> And, being that there is no expended cases lying around after a fire-fight,
> this makes caseless ammo "environmental friendly". I guess they ought
> to label them in green then. ;)
>
> To sum up, it's a great idea.
>
>
> TRAVIS
> hh...@chevron.com
-Huw
"But you're dead!" "So let's indulge in some necrophilia..."
DISCLAIMER: Any and all opinions expressed above
are mine and have nothing to do with my employer.
[ Huw Rogers Communications Software Engineer, NEC Corporation, Tokyo, Japan ]
[ Email: rog...@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp Fax: +81-3-5476-1005 Tel: +81-3-5476-1096 ]
Urban F
From Urban F <u...@icl.se>
Rogers Huw <rog...@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp> writes:
>I picked up a thread on Caseless vs Cased ammunition in rec.arts.movies.
>I would like to know more about the G11 discussed in the quoted article
>below - please post as I am sure others are interested.
This is from two articles I wrote in 1991 (edited to make it
look like one) + a little more:
-- begin old article --
Heckler & Koch G11
Length 75 cm. Weight 3,9 kg unloaded. Optical sight, Swarovski 1x
/ 3,5x, is standard.
50 rd magazines, small indicator on top to show how much remains.
Mounted over the barrel with bullets nose down.
Safety/selector, conventional ambidextrous, marked S, 1, 3, -50
3 rd burst 0,09 s, equal to 33 rd/s, but at full auto setting
only 7 rd/s is fired.
4,92x34 mm caseless ammunition. Rifling 1 turn in 15 cm.
The square propellant block is drilled with holes to accept the
other parts of the cartridge: A combustible primer at the rear; A copper cup
containing a booster mix; The bullet; A plastic nose cap to
center the bullet.
When you pull the trigger, the firing pin, which has a spur and
rotates, strikes the primer. The primer has very tiny particles
of glass in it, which helps the firing pin develop sufficient
pressure against the primer.
The booster then pushes the bullet into the bore, thus sealing
it, then the main propellant (which has a high ignition point)
starts to burn. The copper cup for the booster follows the
bullet out through the barrel.
The chamber then rotates 90 deg down and a cartridge is fed
from the magazine, and it returns to horizontal.
If you want to unload it, you twist the cocking handle on the
left of the stock, and the cartridge drops from a hole in the
bottom (which only opens during this operation).
-- end old article --
--
Urban Fredriksson u...@icl.se
Mark Brown
From Mark Brown <mbr...@convex.com>
Rogers Huw <rog...@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp> writes:
>From Rogers Huw <rog...@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp>
>I picked up a thread on Caseless vs Cased ammunition in rec.arts.movies.
>I would like to know more about the G11 discussed in the quoted article
>below - please post as I am sure others are interested.
The futuristic-looking short, square-bodied machine guns that most
used in Total Recall were either G11s or G11 mock-ups.
For a _complete_ illustated study of G11s and rifles that use flechettes
get a copy of Guns and Ammo's Action series _Assault Rifle_ issue that
came out around last Feb. See the article "Assault Rifles of the 21st
Century. Anyone interested in military small arms of this century will
love the entire issue. You can probably find out how to order it in a Guns
and Ammo mag.
thx,
MGB
-=HK ALL THE WAY=-
Dan Sorenson
From Dan Sorenson <vik...@iastate.edu>
In <C7C39...@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Mark Brown <mbr...@convex.com> writes:
> For a _complete_ illustated study of G11s and rifles that use flechettes
>get a copy of Guns and Ammo's Action series _Assault Rifle_ issue that
>came out around last Feb. See the article "Assault Rifles of the 21st
>Century. Anyone interested in military small arms of this century will
>love the entire issue. You can probably find out how to order it in a Guns
>and Ammo mag.
For the civilian market, the Austrian-made Voere VEC 91 in
5.7x26mm UCC is now available. A review can be found in the May '93
issue of American Rifleman. The UCC is a caseless round, by the way.
Looks like a nifty idea, but reloading your own is likely difficult ;-)
< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1...@exnet.iastate.edu vik...@iastate.edu >
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