Thermite shells for battleships

[ZZyXX]

it might make those who like big booms shudder, but I wonder if a large
ship was hit with one or more large shells filled with thermite, would
the resulting damage be equivalent to armor piercing?

[a425couple]

That seems to be often discussed on computer war gaming forums.

Here is another discussion
https://www.gunforums.net/forums/shotguns/1388-thermite-shotgun-shell.html
"thermite shotgun shell?
http://www.firequest.com/catalog/fla...rmoreinfo.html

lol... I would never fire those in any of my shotguns...
They would be made of magnesium, thermite would be to much for
any barrel.
hey, cool... firequest got a new site! Been waiting to order
some 37MM rounds from them for some time now."

I just do not know. Seems to me like you have to have
the thermite inside a shell, to deliver it out the
gun barrel at a shock, to achieve a speed of around 2,600 fps,
through the air, and delivered on target.
Once it is delivered on target, you want it splattered,
and chance to stick, rather than just bouncing off.

[Mark Spence]

I was under the impression that thermite reactions proceed relatively slowly compared to high explosives.

[ZZyXX]

On 8/12/18 3:04 AM, Mark Spence wrote:
> I was under the impression that thermite reactions proceed relatively slowly compared to high explosives.
>

possibly although video doesn't seem to show that, in any event it is
hard to extinguish

[ZZyXX]

I believe there were thermite bombs in WW2, in any event I'd want it to
not splatter...I'm imagining a couple hundred pounds drilling through
multiple decks

[Keith Willshaw]

On 12/08/2018 19:22, ZZyXX wrote:


> I believe there were thermite bombs in WW2, in any event I'd want it to
> not splatter...I'm imagining a couple hundred pounds drilling through
> multiple decks

Thermite bombs were intended to set buildings on fire. HE was used to
blow the roof off and incendiaries to start fires. If you have an AP
shell a bursting charge flinging large pieces of red hot shrapnel around
is FAR more damaging. It will kill people and start fires quite handily.

Two hundred pounds of thermite on Battleship armour is unlikely to
penetrate and even if it did there was usually a void behind it.

[Mark Spence]

How would you use an artillery shell to deposit a quantity of thermite sufficient to melt through the armor of a BB?

[PaxPerPoten]

Or Depleted Uranium.


--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster

[Vincent]

On 8/12/2018 5:04 AM, Mark Spence wrote:
> I was under the impression that thermite reactions proceed relatively slowly compared to high explosives.

That is correct. The US Military keeps Thermite Grenades on hand to
destroy classified equipment and to spike large guns. We also used it to
burn out the bottoms of boarded craft that were deemed pirates. It
absolutely loves aluminum. Thermite in the rough is relatively easy to
manufacture by almost anyone.
>

[dott.Piergiorgio]

depend on where detonate and how is the DC.

on paper a thermite bomb whose fail to penetrate the lower armoured deck
above the magazine can burn thru said deck, but the DC parties can buy
enough time to flood the magazine. Meaning, what today will be termed a
mission kill. but the best mean for mission-kill a BB (or CV) in WW2 was
the torpedo (there's plenty of examples..)

PH was a prime example of mission-killing not of a battleship, but of a
battleline.

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

as pointed above, the issue isn't the melting, but the melting time.
more slower than flooding a magazine, but forcing a BB to flood the
magazine is equivalent to a mission-kill. a mission-kill method inferior
to the torpedo.

[ZZyXX]

ah, but what if you used one of the hotter combinations. also the
melting time could be faster that the ability to flood a magazine

[ZZyXX]

I'm thinking thermite gel, but can't determine how sticky it is.
During World War II, both German and Allied incendiary bombs used
thermite mixtures. Incendiary bombs usually consisted of dozens of thin
thermite-filled canisters (bomblets) ignited by a magnesium fuse.

[Mark Spence]

This is a thermite reaction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxsFglz2ig


Could a pail of thermite like that in the video be gently set in place on the deck of a ship via an artillery moving through the air at 5 km/second?

[Fred J. McCall]

ZZyXX <zz...@CampSoda-Restoration-Project.tv> wrote on Tue, 14 Aug
2018 16:28:52 -0700:

Those only worked because they used HE to break up the fuel first. I
don't believe they ever dropped pure thermite incendiaries.


--
"Death is my gift." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer

[Keith Willshaw]

On 15/08/2018 05:08, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> ZZyXX <zz...@CampSoda-Restoration-Project.tv> wrote on Tue, 14 Aug
> 2018 16:28:52 -0700:

>

> Those only worked because they used HE to break up the fuel first. I
> don't believe they ever dropped pure thermite incendiaries.
>
>

The Luftwaffe used 2 types of incendiary during the London Blitz

The main type was the 1 kilogram magnesium alloy B-1E Elektronbrandbombe
which was filled with thermite and dropped in clusters. The main problem
was that they couldnt penetrate the roof of most building. Some were
fitted with a small explosive charge but the main tactic was for the
first wave of aircraft to drop HE bombs to crack the roof open and then
drop incendiaries from the second wave. They also used naval mines under
parachutes to achieve the same purpose.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30021484

The other type was the Flammenbombe, a 250 kg or 500 kg high explosive
bomb case filled with an inflammable oil mixture. It didnt work well and
was withdrawn in 1941.

The main RAF incendiary was the 4lb weapon which was a hollow body made
from aluminium-magnesium alloy with a cast iron/steel nose, and filled
with thermite pellets. It was capable of burning for up to ten minutes.
There was also a high explosive version intended to blow holes in the
roof but this was largely superseded by the practise of dropping a 4000
lb thin case blast bomb along with each load of incendiaries. The blast
bombs would crack open buildings which could then be set on fire.

A small number of 30lb incendiaries were deployed which could burn much
longer. As I recall they were mainly used in the attacks on the German
synthetic oil plants.

The Gneisenau was bombed in dock using Armour Piercing bombs which
penetrated the armour deck exploding in the ship and destroying the
forward turret. The entire bow section was burned out when propellant
charges caught fire. She was never repaired and her guns were removed
and used for coastal defense

For the attacks on the German BB Tirpitz the initial raids used 500 lb
and 1600 lb semi armour piercing bombs which mission killed her but
failed to sink the ship. The attack that sank her used 12,000 lb Tallboy
weapons which went straight through the armoured deck and blew out the
bottom of the hull sinking her in minutes. Letting water in is always
the most effective way to sink a ship but if you can cause a magazine
explosion as well you have it down pat.

https://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/history/tiropercatechism.html

Dealing with ships at sea from carrier borne aircraft this was done by
using air dropped torpedoes in synchronised attacks from all quarters.
This worked rather well with the Yamato and Musashi. The bombers were
mainly useful for flak suppression. Dead gunners cant shoot down the
torpedo droppers and destroying the gun directors and damage control
centre was a bonus that prevented effective counter flooding taking place.

KeithW

[Dean Markley]

A pail of thermite ignited on deck "might" penetrate the first deck. The thermite reaction is a slow thermal reaction which generates molten iron from the combo of iron oxide and aluminum. The molten iron will definitely heat and at least partially penetrate a steel deck depending on thickness but not much else. Thermite is useful for welding things like railroad rails or for destroying things like gun tubes/breeches. It will also set flammable items on fire of course. Delivering it a supersonic speed would be very inefficient.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

let's change the theme to one more interesting: thermite against carrier
decks.

on paper, is more interesting: bombing a carrier with impact thermite
charges will be rather interesting; just below the deck are a thin
gallery deck, followed by what actually matters on a carrier, the hangar
deck(s), with all those aluminium (or, in early WWII, even wooden)
aircraft more or less densely packed. (IIRC, thermite's combustion
temperature is above the flashpoint of Al), that is, potentially more
probability of effective mission-killing.

Loading dive bombers with, for example in metric units, 2x 250kg or
better, 5x100kg bombs should also not only raise the hit probability,
but also insure more hits (= more spread thermite fires)

there's also a little added advantage: giving more potential lethality
to dive bombers will impose splitting the CAP and AA priorities, easing
the collective work of the combined force of torpedo and dive bombers.

opinions ?

[Fred J. McCall]

"dott.Piergiorgio" <chiede...@ask.me> wrote on Thu, 16 Aug 2018
10:15:09 +0200:

Against US WWII carriers this might do something, but you're still
better off with explosives. Against UK WWII carriers with armored
flight decks, not so much. Remember, carriers were designed to
survive aircraft crashes and fires. It might work OK against 'Jeep'
carriers, but they were pretty easy to damage and sink.

Against modern carriers, thermite would be a waste of time.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."

[George 152]

"dott.Piergiorgio" <chiede...@ask.me> wrote in message
news:pl3bqd$3v1$1...@dont-email.me...

If you take away/ignore the efforts of the Damage Control parties anything
is possible



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