Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?

[a425couple]

Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?
It looks like it is not much further to just go
around Cape Horn. And modern ships in normal
weather should not very often have a problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Magellan
"It is considered a difficult route to navigate due to the
narrowness of the passage and unpredictable winds and currents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Blue_Ridge_(LCC-19)
"Upon entry to the Strait of Magellan, Blue Ridge took on a
passage pilot from the Chilean Navy for the transit. The
Chilean patrol boat lost its mast and damaged one of Blue Ridge's
basket antennas, just aft of the port sponson, in the
boarding operation.[12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Passage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_Channel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Horn

[Fred J. McCall]

a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?
>It looks like it is not much further to just go
>around Cape Horn. And modern ships in normal
>weather should not very often have a problem.
>

It's around 500 miles longer to go around and as you go down that far
you have to start worrying about sea ice and some really shitty
weather. Nevertheless, ships do go down that far and some have been
sunk by sea conditions.


--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world."
-- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden

[george152]

On 8/6/2017 8:26 AM, a425couple wrote:
> Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?

Less distance more profit and less fuel burned.
The latter should have the backing of conservationists

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[a425couple]

On 8/5/2017 3:05 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?
>> It looks like it is not much further to just go
>> around Cape Horn. And modern ships in normal
>> weather should not very often have a problem.
>>
>
> It's around 500 miles longer to go around and as you go down that far
> you have to start worrying about sea ice and some really shitty
> weather. Nevertheless, ships do go down that far and some have been
> sunk by sea conditions.

Thank you. I could not find a distance stated,
but I had no idea it was that far.
OK, 500 miles makes it worth having to get a pilot
and going slow.

So meanwhile, a poem:

GHOSTS OF CAPE HORN
All around old Cape Horn
Ships of the line, ships of the morn
Some who wish they'd never been born
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn
Fal deral da riddle de rum
With a rim dim diddy
And a rum dum dum
Sailing away at the break of morn
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn
See them all in sad repair
Demons dance everywhere
Southern gales, tattered sails
And none to tell the tales
Come all of you rustic old sea dogs
Who follow the great Southern Cross
You we're rounding the Horn
In the eye of a storm
When ya lost 'er one day
And you read all yer letters
From oceans away
Then you took them to the bottom of the sea
All around old Cape Horn
Ships of the line, ships of the morn
Those who wish they'd never been born
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn
Fal deral da riddle de rum
With a rim dim diddy
And a rum dum dum
Sailing away at the break of morn
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn
Come all you old sea dogs from Devon
Southampton, Penzance, and Kinsale
You were caught by the chance
Of a sailor's last dance
It was not meant to be
And ya read all yer letters
Cried anchor aweigh
Then ya took them to the bottom of the sea
All around old Cape Horn
Ships of the line, ships of the morn
Those who wish they'd never been born
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn
Fal deral da riddle de rum
With a rim dim diddy
And a rum dum dum
Sailing away at the break of morn
They are the ghosts of Cape Horn

[Scott M. Kozel]

On Saturday, August 5, 2017 at 11:43:53 PM UTC-4, a425couple wrote:
> On 8/5/2017 3:05 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
> > a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?
> >> It looks like it is not much further to just go
> >> around Cape Horn. And modern ships in normal
> >> weather should not very often have a problem.
> >
> > It's around 500 miles longer to go around and as you go down that far
> > you have to start worrying about sea ice and some really shitty
> > weather. Nevertheless, ships do go down that far and some have been
> > sunk by sea conditions.
>
> Thank you. I could not find a distance stated,
> but I had no idea it was that far.
> OK, 500 miles makes it worth having to get a pilot
> and going slow.

I was surprised that the narrow places would have enough
usable wind to propel a large sailing ship thru there,
given the difficulty in tacking a vessel like that.

[a425couple]

That was part of my earlier concerns.
(I've been reading about Cook etc.)
Looks like around the eastern end, near
"Cruce Punta Delgada" for about 5 miles,
it is just over 1 mile wide.
With varying winds, I would not want that!

[a425couple]

And then, over on the western half,
from "Isa Carlos III" on out the west for quite
a few miles it also looks like not much wider
than a mile.

from
http://www.nautilus.cl/yatechonos/history.htm
(neat paintings!)

VESSELS SHIPWRECKED ON THE COASTS OF THE STRAITS OF MAGELLAN
Nao Santiago, sent by Hernando de Magallanes (Ferdinand Magellan), under
the command of Juan Serrano, sank in the River Santa Cruz on May 22nd
,1520. Although this disaster did not occur within the Magellan Straits,
we consider it worth mentioning, because this is the first ship that
sinks off the southern South American coast “... , taking possession
with its keel of the arid lands named Patagonia...” (F. Vidal Gormaz).
Sancti Spiritus. Commanded by Juan Sebastian Elcano, sank at Dungenes
Point, on January 14, 1526.

Alonso de Camargo. Flagship sank off the North East coast of First
Narrows on January 23, 1540.

San Sebastian. Francisco Cortes Ojeda, overwhelmed by the tempestuous
southern weather, was lost in January of 1558 in the labyrinths of the
group of isles, known nowadays as the John Narborough isles.

Marigold. One of the vessels belonging to the fleet of Francis Drake,
after a successful and memorable navigation through the Magellan
Straits, (it only took sixteen days to sail from the Eastern Inlet to
Cape Pilar) upon departing the Western Outlet to the Pacific, was caught
by a furious storm, and was lost in the islets south of Desolation
Island, somewhere around the beginning of September of 1578.

A Brigantine, belonging to the fleet commanded by Sarmiento de Gamboa,
sank in the month of January 1580, to the south of Cape Santa Lucia
(Diego de Almagro Island, located on latitude parallel 52°).

Trinidad. Vessel commanded by Sarmiento de Gamoa, was lost due to an
intentional scuttling, in order to take advantage of its planking and
rigging, because of the precarious condition of the hull, an event that
occurred opposite the recently founded settlement of Nombre de Jesus
(Name of Jesus), in the Dungeness area, in February of 1584. We mention
this event as a veritable “settlement rehearsal of the Straits of
Magellan” (F.Vidal Gormaz).

Express. North American barge, sank in Monday Bay, in the group of isles
named “Week”, located at latitude 53º 11’, on April 30, 1884.

Veintires de Mayo. French brigantine, sank in Bahia Misericordia (Mercy
Bay) in December of 1846.

"Garonne" barge
"Santiago" PSNC steamer

Cauning. British brigantine, caught fire at Port Bulnes on December 16,
1846.

Manuela. British barge sank in the Magellan Straits, Western Mouth,
North shore, in April of 1850.

Garonne. French barge, sank in Solano Bay (Port Wood), towards the end
of 1851.

Maria Isabel. Chilean Transport Vessel, sank in Bahia Misericordia
(Mercy Bay) on December 16, 1857.

Lautaro. Chilean Barge, sank on August 22, 1860 in Posesion Bay.
Santiago. A steamer owned by PSNC, in route from Valparaiso to
Liverpool, sank after striking a submerged rock at the outlet of Puerto
Misericordia (Port Mercy), on January 23, 1869 .

Rippling Wave. A sealing schooner built in New York, and incorporated
into Punta Arenas register, in 1869. After a hazardous existence in the
southern seas, dedicated to seal hunting, in the area of the great
labyrinth of islets and islands off the Pacific coast and, after making
successive journeys to Port Stanley and a memorable voyage to Valparaìso
full of adventures, the venturesome life of this renowned schooner came
to an end running aground at Cabo Negro (Black Cape), in 1906, but not
before running aground on three previous occasions during the years
1869, 1872 and 1904 on the coasts of the province of Magallanes. Part of
the bow, stem and bowsprit are still conserved currently in the
frontispiece of the local Maritime Authority Offices, as a testimony of
three decades of commitment to the development and progress of this region.

Sheffield. British barge, sank in the vicinity of Cape Pilar, on June
14, 1869.

Jean Amelie. French frigate with a tonnage of 535, on tow towards Punta
Arenas, was caught by a strong west wind, that caused the towing cables
to fail, and the vessel drifted onto the coast at Dungeness Point, on
April 30 , 1876.

Sea Shell. Fourty two Ton chilean schooner, ran aground at Cape
Posesion, on April 30, 1876.

Georgia. North American steamer,1937 Tons, ran aground at Punta Roqueña
(Rocky Point) on June 23, 1876

Denderah. German steamer owned by Kosmos Line, 988 Tons, ran aground at
Punta Baxa (Shallow Point), in the month of July, 1877.

HMS Doterel. British gunboat, at anchor in the bay of Punta Arenas,
exploded and sank immediately, on April 26, 1881.
HMS “Doterel” remains recovery made by the british Garnet "Turquoise" in
July, 1881

Wanderer. Small North American Schooner, dedicated to seal hunting off
the coasts of the island of Tierra del Fuego, sank in Hope Harbour,
Grafton Group, on October 17, 1881.

Surprise. North American Sealing Schooner, 53 Tons, sank off BASKET
island, to the south of the island of Tierra del Fuego, on September 24,
1882 .

Cordillera. Steamer owned by the Pacific Steam Navigation Company
(PSNC), ran aground on the rocky shoals that are the projection of San
Isidro point, on September 20, 1884.
Remains of Cordillera

Artique. French steamer sailing from Le Havre towards Valparaiso, ran
aground on the eastern coast of Patagonia, between Cabo Vìrgenes
(Virgins Cape) and Condor Cliff, on September 24, 1884.

Vichuquen. Small french steamer, had sailed from Nantes en route to
Talcahuano, sank off Cambridge Island, Saint George Channel, in the
vicinity of the Evangelistas Light House, on July 1st, 1889.

Adamant. German barge sailing from Hamburg bound for Valparaìso, after
having rounded Cape Horn, was wrecked on the coast of Desolation Island,
in the vicinity of Latitude Island in August of 1890.

Virgilia. German steamer, sailing from the Atlantic to the Pacific, put
in at the port of Punta Arenas, and was lost when departing the Western
Outlet of the Straits into the Pacific in September of 1890, and was
probably swamped in these tempestuous waters.

Ysca. Barge of unknown flag in the chronicles, ran aground in Posesion
Bay on September 27, 1890 .

A Steamer. The captain of the german steamer Theben, that dropped anchor
in the bay of Valparaiso on September 29, sailing from Hamburg, reported
that on the 11th September he saw a steamer the name of which he could
not see nor could he observe any crew members, aground and totally lost
on Astrea Rock in Tamar bay, Straits of Magellan.

Cleopatra. German steamer owned by the german company Hamburg Pacific,
sank off the eastern coast of Dungeness Point, on June 30, 1892.

Artesia. German steamer owned by Hamburg Pacific, 1803 Tons ran aground
in Punta Pasaje (Passage Point) of Isabel Bay on the night of July 17, 1892.
Steamer “Cordillera” PSNC
Steamer similar to "Artesia" sunken at Punta Pasaje

Unknown Vessel. The Captain of the british barge Conway Castle, arriving
at Valparaiso on April 17, 1893, proceeding from Sunderland, reported
that, around latitude 36º 33’ South and 74º 21’ West, they had found a
vessel with its keel exposed to the sun...
We mention this fact due to a curious story, because the author of this
summary, rescued from the remains of the german cruiser Dresden, sunk
off the island of Juan Fernandez (Robinson Crusoe), in March of 1915, a
beautiful bronze bell, belonging to the barge Conway Castle, which in
turn was sunk by the german cruiser in February, 1915. In view of these
facts, we are inclined to believe that the commander of the Dresden, had
kept the bell for himself, in lieu of a “souvenir”...

Recovered Atlantique's bronze plate Conway Castle's bell
Atlantique. French steamer belonging to the Compagnie Maritime du
Pacifique, with a gross tonnage of 1917 tons and loaded with a cargo of
2950 tons, on a journey from Guayaquil and Valparaiso towards Le Havre
and Liverpool, while steaming towards the Second Narrows, it touched
bottom on a submerged rock on the quarter of Magdalena Island, on April
29, 1894, therefore the Captain changed course towards the North coast
of the island, running the ship aground.

Hengist. British barge with a gross tonnage of 1.116 Tons, sailing from
Port Stanley and bound for Punta Delgada (Narrow Point) in Magallanes,
was wrecked off the West coast of Dungeness Point, and was totally lost.
In 1894.

Canton. British steamer with a gross tonnage of 1820 Tons. Having
suffered a serious list because the cargo of steel rails it was carrying
moved to one side, the Captain made an attempt to reach Punta Arenas,
but when he dropped anchor in Snug Bay, he touched bottom on a rocky
shallows, sinking to the bottom and becoming a total loss, on October
18, 1894.
Canton boilers. Diving at 16 mts. depth, near Cape Froward.

Copernicus. British steamer owned by Lamport & Halt Shipping Company,
with a gross tonnage of 2052, departed from Punta Arenas bound to
Valparaiso, carrying passengers and an assorted cargo, never having been
heard of again; but it is known that the intention was to sail out to
the Pacific and continue the journey. It seems very likely that, it
might have been swamped, as occurred with the german steamer Virgilia,
in 1890. The Copernicus was lost in October of 1895. Months afterwards,
the crew of a Sloop Registered in Punta Arenas, discovered on the coast
of Puerto Angosto (Narrow Port), at latitude 53º 14’ S and Long 73º 23’
W , on May 26, 1896, a life vest with the name Copernicus.

Corocoro. North American steamer, owned by the Merchant's Lines N.Y.,
ran aground opposite Punta Baxa, on August 12, 1897.

Desolacion Island, “Mataura” cove
Mataura. British steamer of 3600 tons, Captain Charles A. Milward, was
sailing from New Zealand bound for England via Cape Horn, but having
suffered a malfunction in the engine, was forced to head North towards
Cape Pilar, “...risking himself on the worst leeward coast in the world
and reached the western entrance to the Magellan Straits...” (Bruce
Chatwin). When it was very close to Cape Pilar, the engine of the
Mataura failed once again, and the ship was swept by the West current
and weather onto the shores of Desolation Island, where he was forced to
run aground and save his crew...” The vessel was grounded in a cove
located to the north of Puerto Loberos (Sealer’s Port), known nowadays
as “Mataura” cove, on January 12, 1898.

Kirckless. Chilean steamer with a gross tonnage of 242 tons, was wrecked
close to Punta Delgada, and was totally lost in the middle of April of 1899.

Huemul. Small coast guard cutter belonging to the Chilean Government,
dedicated to service in the Straits of Magellan, light houses, buoys and
hydrographic surveys.
Ran aground on Crooked rock (near Borja), in an unexpected manner,
subsequently sinking to the bottom. The wreck occurred in April of 1899.

Duntroone. British frigate with a gross tonnage of 1500 Tons, sank in
the Nelson Strait (Brecknock Channel ) in the month of October of 1899.

Ambassador. British Clipper 692 register Tons, composite building, that
is to say, hull with steel frames coated by teak wood.Even though this
ship, grounded today in a beach at Magellan Strait's “San Gregorio”
farm, 120 km North of Punta Arenas, does not represent a shipwreck, we
think it is interesting to mention it here, because is one of the
famouses and fast Tea Clippers that sailed between the chinese port of
Fuchow and London, circa 1872.
This sailboat, along with its similar Cutty Sark, exhibited as a museum
in Greenwich, England, respresents one of the lasts Tea Clippers.
As a curiosity, Ambassador's figurehead was rescued in the 70's and
today can be seen in the Maritime Room at the Patagonia Institute in
Punta Arenas, Chile.


Francisco Ayarza O.
Shipwreck Diver
Nautilus 53°
www.nautilus53.cl
Punta Arenas, August 31st, 2001

[george152]

On 8/7/2017 3:47 AM, a425couple wrote:

> That was part of my earlier concerns.
> (I've been reading about Cook etc.)
> Looks like around the eastern end, near
> "Cruce Punta Delgada" for about 5 miles,
> it is just over 1 mile wide.
> With varying winds, I would not want that!

In a case like that they put out the sea boats and tow the ship to a
better position.
The Armstrong patent at work

[Scott M. Kozel]

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 4:30:11 PM UTC-4, george152 wrote:
> On 8/7/2017 3:47 AM, a425couple wrote:
>
> > That was part of my earlier concerns.
> > (I've been reading about Cook etc.)
> > Looks like around the eastern end, near
> > "Cruce Punta Delgada" for about 5 miles,
> > it is just over 1 mile wide.
> > With varying winds, I would not want that!
>
> In a case like that they put out the sea boats and tow the ship to a
> better position.
> The Armstrong patent at work

Tow them with what? Little sailboats would be subject to the
same winds or lack thereof. A bid sailing ship would take a
fantastic amount of oar power to move the ship.

[george152]

You've never heard of oars, rowing or as we called it, pulling?
WTF are you doing in a naval group?

[dott.Piergiorgio]

On 07/08/2017 07:14, george152 wrote:
> On 8/7/2017 2:10 PM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 4:30:11 PM UTC-4, george152 wrote:
>>> On 8/7/2017 3:47 AM, a425couple wrote:
>>>
>>>> That was part of my earlier concerns.
>>>> (I've been reading about Cook etc.)
>>>> Looks like around the eastern end, near
>>>> "Cruce Punta Delgada" for about 5 miles,
>>>> it is just over 1 mile wide.
>>>> With varying winds, I would not want that!
>>>
>>> In a case like that they put out the sea boats and tow the ship to a
>>> better position.
>>> The Armstrong patent at work
>>
>> Tow them with what? Little sailboats would be subject to the
>> same winds or lack thereof. A bid sailing ship would take a
>> fantastic amount of oar power to move the ship.
>>
>
> You've never heard of oars, rowing or as we called it, pulling?
> WTF are you doing in a naval group?

Actually mr. Kozel noticed that large sailing ships needed rather large
oar power to move.

indeed, a big three-decker as HMS Victory is rather hard to move under
oars (cfr. the chase of USS Constitution off Egg Harbor, and notice that
her escape was because of the indifferent rowing qualities of HMS
Africa, a small third rate of 64), but generally small merchant don't
have the large crew (muscle power) of a man-o'-war. aside that the
waters around Magellan rarely allow launching the boat for rowing out
ship of dire situation.

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

[george152]

Okay. We used a seaboat to take a kedge out from the ship, dropped the
kedge and the ship winched up to the kedge.
Part of a seamans knowledge base.
I know he's now looking up what a kedge is :)

[Scott M. Kozel]

I did a lot of sailing when I was young, so I well know sailing
terms like kedging. These were small boats, but solving issues
such as how to sail thru a narrow channel and how to make sure
you have enough water depth below your keel apply equally to all
sailing vessels.

Maps of the Strait of Magellan seem to indicate at least two
places that are about 10 miles long and about one mile wide. If
large sailing vessels (1,000+ tons) actually navigated thru there
I would be interested in hearing the details of how they did it.
Whether using kedging or oars, with no wind or head-on winds that
sounds like an incredibly slow process, to where they might just
decide to go around Cape Horn instead.

[Keith Willshaw]

Well its protected from storms and there are some significant ports on
the route not least Punta Arenas and Ushuaia. If was on trying to get
from the Atlantic to the Pacific at this time of year I know which way I
would go. With the prevailig winds being west to east and the funneling
effect of the Antarctic Peninsula and Cape Horn you can find yourself
being pounded by some really monstrous waves.

[Scott M. Kozel]

Easy decision nowadays, with accurate nautical charts and channel
markers throughout the Strait of Magellan. Plus nearly any sailing
vessel would have auxiliary propulsion (gasoline or diesel engine).

But what about in the days of no propulsion other than sail?
Probably no accurate depth charts or channel markers. Vagaries of the
wind or lack thereof, and hard to tell how much usable water you have.

[george152]

Well, perhaps thats why the old sailing masters would put a seaboat out
to use a leadline and measure the depth?
And all those 'accurate' charts ?
A lot of time is used by Hydro-graphic departments checking and
reissuing charts ...

[Scott M. Kozel]

Wouldn't that be a very slow process when trying to traverse
a 200-some mile passage?

> And all those 'accurate' charts ?
> A lot of time is used by Hydro-graphic departments checking and
> reissuing charts ...

At least they could have a general idea of what waters are
deep enough for their vessel.

[george152]

On 8/9/2017 9:24 AM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:

> Wouldn't that be a very slow process when trying to traverse
> a 200-some mile passage?

And no doubt you'd (in that position) be happy to explain to the Lords
of the Admiralty as to how you lost your ship by not taking all measures
to ensure safety of ship and ships company.
The Lords get right slagged off when that happens

>> And all those 'accurate' charts ?
>> A lot of time is used by Hydro-graphic departments checking and
>> reissuing charts ...
>
> At least they could have a general idea of what waters are
> deep enough for their vessel.
>

Just recently NZ had a large earthquake that raised the sea floor off
the Kaikouras by several meters.
And a harbour that was then above sea level and only recently was
dredged to assist the Whale Watching fleet operating from that harbour....

[John Dallman]

In article <d81a5d73-0eed-43d0...@googlegroups.com>,

koz...@comcast.net (Scott M. Kozel) wrote:

> Wouldn't that be a very slow process when trying to traverse
> a 200-some mile passage?

Sailing ships did not run to a schedule, because they couldn't. Times for
a journey were always very variable.

John

[george152]

There are logs that reflect several weeks of sitting a few miles outside
the port of embarkation waiting for the wind.
Also of cannibalism at sea when they ran out of supplies...
Thumbs up to underwater spinnakers

[Scott M. Kozel]

Who said they had to follow a schedule?

[Scott M. Kozel]

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 6:35:09 PM UTC-4, george152 wrote:
> On 8/9/2017 9:24 AM, Scott M. Kozel wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't that be a very slow process when trying to traverse
> > a 200-some mile passage?
>
> And no doubt you'd (in that position) be happy to explain to the Lords
> of the Admiralty as to how you lost your ship by not taking all measures
> to ensure safety of ship and ships company.
> The Lords get right slagged off when that happens

Alternatives analysis --
1) Time taken and risk of running aground on Strait of Magellan
route.
2) Time taken and risk of sea ice and gales on route around Cape
Horn.

I was just wondering if you could clearly predict in advance
which would be superior for your trip back in the days of sail
and no navigational aids other than what is on your vessel.

[george152]

The mark of an experienced seaman was number of times that he had
'doubled' both Capes.
And no, there was no way you could guarantee anything in those days.
Storms were expected, calms were accepted and six month voyages not
uncommon.
It was the master who decided the route from experience

[Dennis]

a425couple wrote:

> Why do ships go through the Strait of Magellan?

to get to the other side!
<yuck> <yuck> <yuck>

Dennis

[george152]

:)