Considering old age
Frogwatch
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2...@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps spinning.
William Black
Hire an apprentice.
Normal apprenticeship for a 'toolmaker' or 'detail engineer' is three
years in the UK with them doing one day at college and four days in your
factory.
Pay is 50% the first year, 75% the second year and 90% the third year.
Take care, 'articles of employment' and so formal apprenticeships may
be illegal in the USA...
Don't expect any useful work from him in the first year, he (or she)
will spend that fetching and carrying and sweeping up and being
generally insulted.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Frogwatch
> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
William Black
Actually they do.
They just can't afford to build any these days.
There are no lost arts.
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
computers have replaced machinists.
and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen.
new times and new methods. that's all.
Ray O'Hara
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hcspdg$eai$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
they can build a pyramid but not the way they built them.
and hordes of Jewish slaves hauling blocks wasn't the method used.
Jack Linthicum
Google tool and die maker jobs
William Black
Do you have some sort of serious source that says Jewish slaves built
anything we actually know about?
Frogwatch
> >news:hcspdg$eai$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> Ray O'Hara wrote:
In many cases, it would take more time to program a CNC to do
something than it would to make just one. In those cases, you need a
skilled machinist. This is particularly true when you know you will
be making changes to the item. A recent example was a part where the
machinist made the first one and then they tried to program the CNC to
make more. The first one took a day to make by hand on the manual
machines. It took three weeks and many bad parts to finally get the
CNC to do it right.
Often, a part is being made purely for R&D and you know a commercial
version will look different. In such a case, it often costs less to
make it manually than to program the CNC. There are also many things
even a 5 axis CNC cannot do. Many of our optics have sufficient
variation that holders for them must be individually made and the fit
is simply by repeated measurement.
Even in 2009, there is still a need for skills that old machinists/
tool and die makers have.
Ray O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:oft3f5t20e7laslcq...@4ax.com...
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :stores are full of tools.
> :
>
> But not necessarily the ones you need.
>
> :
> :computers have replaced machinists.
> :
>
> Not so much, no.
>
> :
> :and the pyramid architects were very skilled craftsmen.
> :
>
> Architects are skilled craftsmen.
>
> :
> :new times and new methods. that's all.
>
> True, but 'new' doesn't always equate to 'better'.
>
if the old ways were better we'd still do it that way.
Ray O'Hara
why would I when I said they didn't do it
what part of that is so difficult for you to understand.
as for claims they did read the bible, its a book some famous jewish guys
wrote/plagiarized and many people believe.{maybe even you}
Jack Linthicum
> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:hcsthj$knu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >>news:hcspdg$eai$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> Ray O'Hara wrote:
Another view look up tool and die maker jobs on google
Felix Reuthner
> if the old ways were better we'd still do it that way.
For certain values of "better".
If you compare a hand-written and illuminated copy of the bible written
on vellum with an early machine-printed version (or indeed a modern
one), the first will clearly be better in everything but the amount of
work required.
Felix
deem...@aol.com
>
> news:hcsthj$knu$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >>news:hcspdg$eai$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> Ray O'Hara wrote:
I'm pretty sure Jewish slaves building the pyramids isn't in the
Bible.
deem...@aol.com
When the DOE plants here started down-sizing, they gave early
retirements to many who had been around and knew a lot of the little
things that weren't in the manuals. Others left to start private
companies with DOE seed money.
There are some things that are only done every decade or so and
when it's time to do them, there isn't anyone left who has done them
before. For example, they emptied and cleaned a uranium processing
kiln a few years ago. The manual neglected to mention it had to be
totally dry before restarting.....resulting in a really nasty
radioactive fire and some old guys saying "Hell, I coulda told you
that".
The plants have also lost the welders who knew how to weld all
sorts of esoteric metals together. After a few (expensive) mistakes,
they figure out they have to contract the work to one of those private
companies started with seed money. This seems to happen again and
again. Maybe a few of the bigwigs should figure this out beforehand.
William Black
No references to pyramid building in the bible at all.
William Black
Except maybe in the ones with pictures...
Mark Borgerson
@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohar...@mindspring.com says...
> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
> happen to him without any notice.
> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
> skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship system.
Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with your
machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I used
to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with our
senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics.
I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only basic
analog electronics. He worked me through from simple to more
complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
> writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best way.
Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the next
generation---if you give them the time and resources.
> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
> it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>
Mark Borgerson
William Black
> something than it would to make just one. In those cases, you need a
> skilled machinist. This is particularly true when you know you will
> be making changes to the item. A recent example was a part where the
> machinist made the first one and then they tried to program the CNC to
> make more. The first one took a day to make by hand on the manual
> machines. It took three weeks and many bad parts to finally get the
> CNC to do it right.
Sack your CNC programmers and hire one who knows what he's doing...
> Often, a part is being made purely for R&D and you know a commercial
> version will look different. In such a case, it often costs less to
> make it manually than to program the CNC.
True.
There are also many things
> even a 5 axis CNC cannot do.
Also true
> Even in 2009, there is still a need for skills that old machinists/
> tool and die makers have.
True.
Hire one or train one.
Your choice.
Better still, train two.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
tankfixer
mborg...@comcast.net says...
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make things
with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
Roger Conroy
"Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hcsun5$q1$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
fraction of their crops..
Roger Conroy
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024...@news.bytemine.net...
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for aprentices
of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the master craftsmen are
very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from
them.
Eugene Griessel
<roger...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The Hebrew Bible does not mention pyramids at all.
>
Which is strange - as surely they would have seen the Giza pyramids at
least (which had been standing for quite a while before the alleged
entry of the Israelites to Egypt. Or this could be one more bit of
evidence (which is getting quite compelling) that the Exodus never
happened - or at least nothing like what the bible recounts.
>It is well established that the pyramid builders were "tax conscripts" -
>Egyptian citizens paying their taxes in the form of labour instead of a
>fraction of their crops..
T'was a bit more complex than that - there was a core group of skilled
people who were paid (or at least as paid as one could get in a
cashless society) and in constant employ of the Pyramid Builders Inc.
company. These were the masons, the architects, etc. The vast
majority of the labourers were either seasonally employed (when they
were not farming) or corvee labour. However there is some compelling
evidence that the latter option was neither popular with the labourers
nor the builders. Fascinating subject all round - went and listened
to old Zahi Hawass when he was here last year(?) although he
concentrated mainly on the new finds and relegated the pyramids to a
footnote in his lecture.
Eugene L Griessel
The young have aspirations that never come to pass.
The old have reminiscences of what never happened.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Roger Conroy
"Eugene Griessel" <eug...@dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:fs15f5t3ige8044v9...@4ax.com...
Hawass is fascinating! I've never been to Egypt but I've seen him in many
National Geographic TV shows.
Yup "corvee" is the word I was looking for!
La N
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually members of
unions and often make much more money than those who work in human/social
services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more
$$$ than those who help people who are down and out.
- nilita
tankfixer
says...
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and corrupt
those who help people..
tankfixer
atlas-...@invalid.invalid says...
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
Eugene Griessel
wrote:
I suggest you look up what a toolmaker does - it is a highly
specialised trade. These are the people who are largely responsible
for the machines, jigs, etc. that turn out the tools your store is
full of.
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
Jack Linthicum
bug...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In article
> <MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a...@news.bytemine.n
> et>,
> tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > In article <hcsqjt$qm...@news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
> > oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
One should know what one is talking about before making such a
statement
Eugene Griessel
<roger...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
One of the things he alluded to was just how many new tombs are found
due to broken sewage pipes! And often the pipes have leaked into
these places so a lot of the excavating gets done with the rich ripe
smell of shit hanging around. Who said being an archaeologist was all
roses!
He is a very compelling speaker - got the gift of the gab!
Eugene L Griessel
The probability of someone watching you is proportional to the
stupidity of your action.
- I post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Eugene Griessel
wrote:
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
One of the issues in this thread is, to sum up, craftsmen versus
artisans. How do you define, in this context, a "craftsman"? I
suppose one definition would be "that artisan that other artisans gaze
at in admiration when he is at work". A craftsman, to me, appears to
be at one with what he does. He extracts the ultimate from his tools
and materials. I well remember when a complicated (and contorted and
convoluted) brass seawater inlet pipe needed replacing. A wizened old
ancient was dispatched from the pipeshop to do the dirty - it took him
half the day to negotiate the engineroom ladder and we awaited, with
trepidation, his imminent demise with every step he took. He hauled
out a battered old folding wooden ruler (the type that chippies use)
and started taking measurements, jotting them down on the back of the
proverbial cigarette packet. We looked at each other and silently
shook our heads. Two days later the pipe was delivered. It fitted
perfectly - even the holes in the flanges lining up perfectly. A
craftsman had been at work. This particular ancient had probably done
a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
longer economically feasible - all appies want to be tradesman like
yesterday and even during their apprenticeship they want a good
salary! In Japan you have what I think is defined as "living cultural
legends" - master craftmen who have laboured at their skills for
decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
"worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
La N
I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear
there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just
bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic
term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social
workers, child care workers, etc.
- nilita
Frogwatch
> > wrote:
>
> >> Roger Conroy wrote:
> >>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:MPG.255c024...@news.bytemine.net...
> >>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>
> >>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
> >>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says...
My machinist is off today for an eye operation (glaucoma) and another
employee told me he is not 75, he is 77, YIKES.
Last year, we needed to make some slots in something .003" wide and
the thinnest slitting saws you can normally buy are .006" thick. I
finally found a company in Syracuse, NY selling slitting saws .003"
thick and called them. I got an old German guy who refused to sell
them to me because he said "You'll break them". He refused to sell
them until he talked to our old machinist and was convinced he knew
what he was doing.
Ten years ago when we started selling our product, we were using a
borrowed lathe and mill that were made in the early 40s. The
machinist was getting extreme tolerances out of these old worn out
machines simply because he knew how. When we licensed the technology
to a big company, they sent a machinist down to see how we were making
these things. When he saw these old machines and how it was being
done his jaw dropped in shock. Now, then years later they still talk
about that.
I tell the machinist that when he decides he cannot work anymore, I'll
pay him to sit in a lawn chair with a glass of iced tea and order
people around.
Roger Conroy
If he ever comes to SA on a public lecture tour I'm buying the first ticket!
I'm still kicking myself for missing Stephen Hawking's lecture.
Jeffrey Hamilton
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people, is the
Conservatives and their ilk.
cheers.....Jeff
Roger Conroy
A Craftsman is the person who's resignation/retirement/death can ruin your
business.
Eugene Griessel
<roger...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
Well he filled the Baxter auditorium - I was quite surprised that so
many Capetonians were even mildly interested.
>I'm still kicking myself for missing Stephen Hawking's lecture.
Sorry to be cynical - but don't you mean Stephen Hawking's laptop's
lecture?
Eugene L Griessel
There are three kinds of death in this world. There's heart
death, there's brain death, and there's being off the network.
La N
"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bbere...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:IkDIm.7105$6c2....@newsfe03.iad...
William Black
This particular ancient had probably done
> a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
> dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
> longer economically feasible -
That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
common in the UK...
William Black
> A Craftsman is the person who's resignation/retirement/death can ruin your
> business.
A craftsman is someone who should normally have an apprentice.
Mind you, it's over 25 years since I had one...
Dan
You'll lose your Republican ID card for that, you know...
Damned Commies.
Dan
Eugene Griessel
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Eugene Griessel wrote:
>This particular ancient had probably done
>> a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
>> dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
>> longer economically feasible -
>
>That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
>common in the UK...
Slave labour for peanuts? Pull the other one!.
Eugene L Griessel
If the sort of people who are needed to make socialism work existed
then one would not need socialism.
William Black
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:50:32 +0000, William Black
> <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Eugene Griessel wrote:
>> This particular ancient had probably done
>>> a long apprenticeship in one of those dismal and dingy workshops in a
>>> dockyard in England with peanuts for pay. That sort of training is no
>>> longer economically feasible -
>> That'll be why traditional craft apprenticeships are becoming more
>> common in the UK...
>
> Slave labour for peanuts? Pull the other one!.
Not peanuts these days.
High youth unemployment, decent qualification system and a reasonably
high minimum wage means it's an attractive proposition for a lot of kids.
Ray O'Hara
> In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
> oh...@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> "Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> > news:df65ebea-6617-46e2...@v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > know
>> > > how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
>> > > with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
>> > > another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
>> > > working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
>> > > making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
>> > > science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
>> > > resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
>> > > happen to him without any notice.
>> > > When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
>> > > and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
>> > > replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of
>> > > odd
>> > > useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
>> > > skills?
>> > > somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
>> > > than
>> > > writing but how?
>> > > know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
>> > > and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
>> > > Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
>> > > mind
>> > > from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
>> > > it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
>> > > We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
>> > > and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
>> > > the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
>> >
>> > no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
>> > spinning.
>>
>> We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
>>
>>
>> ======================================================================
>>
>> stores are full of tools.
>
> Where do they come from ?
> The tool fairy ?
machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
they aren't hand forged anymore.
Ray O'Hara
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2d12a365-70ed-4d3f...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
=========================================================================
They are not hand forged Jack.
cutting machines run by computers get them to tolerances undreamed of.
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2006/04/how_hand_tools_are_made.html
Ray O'Hara
as to unaware. hand tools are made here.
Craftsman runs TV ads showing how Chinese workers covet the American made
tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html
Most Craftsman and Stanley/B&D tools are made here.
ha4h...@kent.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
Yes, that is true. Many traditional arts are classified as important
cultural activities, and their master craftsmen are classified as
national treasures. It wasn't always so---I remember vaguely that at
some time in the 1950's or 60's the impressive temple at Nikko required
renovations and it took perhaps a decade to train enough apprentices to
handle some of the lowlier tasks involved. Since then much more emphasis
has been placed in Japanese society (by redistribution, I mean) on
maintaining a core of specialists in the arts, especially those required
to maintain the existing legion of national artifacts of tourist
interest, such as architecture. The same isn't the case for things not
related to the emperor or his family Shinto, so many arts related to
traditional clothing do die out (kimono seamsters/seamstresses and
painters earn a pittance, for example, and generally give up and take
other jobs to earn a living). It's probably true that if there's money
in it, and the government keeps its grubby hands away, there will be
people found to do those jobs. God knows there are enough interested
foreigners in Japan learning these things...
ha4h...@kent.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Roger Conroy wrote:
>>> "tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.255c024...@news.bytemine.net...
>>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c8...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> mborg...@comcast.net says...
>>>>>
>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
>>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohar...@mindspring.com says...
>
> decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
> apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
> a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
> "worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
> basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people
to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support
themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money
from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a
master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go
into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such
people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very
strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but
able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time
to follow his teacher around wherever he goes.
Frogwatch
> > wrote:
>
> >>Roger Conroy wrote:
> >>> "tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:MPG.255c024...@news.bytemine.net...
> >>>> In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >>>> mborger...@comcast.net says...
>
> >>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
> >>>>> @v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara...@mindspring.com says...
>
> > decades. These men are notorious for the stringent criteria they
> > apply to potential appies! I know of one lady potter (she already had
> > a fine arts degree and had being throwing pots for years) who went and
> > "worked" with one - to learn his skills. He used her like a slave,
> > basically, and did not pay her at all! All part of learnng the craft.
>
> That's the truth. Sadly however, it is less and less possible for people
> to make the necessary sacrifices and remain able to support
> themselves. The Japanese social welfare system is extracting more money
> from individuals than ever before, and opportunity to study under a
> master craftsman or not, there are simply very few who can afford to go
> into such tutelage these days. NGO's do arise who try to subsidize such
> people, leading to other problems, as you can imagine. It takes very
> strong and determined individuals indeed: one follower of an old but
> able Aikido shihan drives a taxi just so that he can regulate his time
> to follow his teacher around wherever he goes.
"Craftsman" tools are no longer very good unfortunately although
certainly better than the usual "Harbor Freight" chinese trash.
Even today, the best tolerances are achieved by hand production. This
is true both in optics fabrication and in tool and die making. As my
machinist says, "When two dry parts have "stiction", (they actually
stick together from Van der Waals forces) you cannot get them any
better conforming, the tolerance is as good as it can get". You will
not get such close fits from CNC. Even parts made on optical diamond
turning systems have visible tool marks that prevent stiction whereas
a good worker can achieve invisible tool marks and good stiction.
The most useful quality this old guy has is his knowledge of materials
like "Yes, Macor is completely Ultra-High Vacuum compatible but it's a
bitch to get good tolerances with it" and similar. He will even
machine Beryllium as long as he can do it in an oil bath. He is worth
his weight in gold.
One time I wanted to cut tiny comb-like structures in alumina. He
devised a wire saw with .002" brass wire onto which a slurry of
diamond was fed to imbed into the brass wire that slowly rubbed
against the alumina cutting the notches. It would index every .005"
to cut another notch. The wire was carried in grooves of a 3"
diameter threaded spool and would reverse direction when it reached
the end of the spool to keep the wear on the wire even, truly friggin
amazing.
Ray O'Hara
"Fred J. McCall" <fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qd...@4ax.com...
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
> hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
> how to build what you want.
>
> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
>
its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
CADCAM Fred.
tankfixer
says...
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
tankfixer
eug...@dynagen.co.za says...
I am aware of what a tool and die maker does.
The high school I attended back in the dark ages required a term of
machine shop where one got to learn some of the basics ...
We also spent time working with sheet metal for a term, automotive
priciples for a term and basic electrical circuit for a term.
All in our freshman year.
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
You are contradicting yourself then, you said china above..
tankfixer
says...
For paying an old man to supervise ?
You must be daft..
Dennis
> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
> how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
> with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
> another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
> working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
> science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
> resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
> happen to him without any notice.
> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
> and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
> replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
> useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
> skills?
> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
> somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
> writing but how?
> When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
> know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
> and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
> Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
> from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
> it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
> We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
> and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
> the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
Someone's probably already said this, but there are attempts to put
such people's knowhow into artificial intelligence software programs.
The trouble with that is that such people's time is in high demand, and
priority has to be assigned to doing this.
I haven't heard of people wisdom being treated that way. Seems like
you could do a little of it.
A lot of things only come from experience. You're right, we don't
assign enough value to that. Far Eastern and traditional cultures are
better at that.
As individuals, we have to keep our skills up to date, so our
employers don't find us obsolete.
Dennis
Frogwatch
> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qd...@4ax.com...
> :> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> ::> :"tankfixer" <paul.carr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> :> :news:MPG.255c017...@news.bytemine.net...
> :> :>
> :> :> Where do they come from ?
> :> :> The tool fairy ?
> :> :
> :> :machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
> :> :they aren't hand forged anymore.
> :> :
> :>
> :> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
> :> hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
> :> how to build what you want.
> :>
> :> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
> :>
> :
> : its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
> :CADCAM Fred.
>
> I repeat. You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do
> you?
>
> --
> "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
> truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
> -- Thomas Jefferson
Ray:
No "mock-ups"? Are you kidding? CNC enables better "mock-ups" before
actually going thru the trouble of cutting real metal (or plastic or
composite etc). There are materials specifically made to be used to
be easily machined into mock-ups to ensure fit and form before the
final CNC code is written.
However, for one-of-a-kind projects, CNC is a waste of time unless the
project requires complicated moves. Here is a good example; we are
building a new x-ray detector. The body is simply a stainless block
with a cylinder bored in it and a hole in the side and will be made by
hand. It will have a closely fitting sleeve of Macor made by hand.
The detector "window" has numerous O-80 threaded holes and a peculiar
triangular knife edge. It could be made by hand but the numerous tiny
threaded holes and knife edge make it better for CNC.
A good machinist will easily be able to determine if CNC or hand
making is better. A good designer will make it easy for the machinist
to determine this. I've noticed that synergy between the designer and
machinist is very important
William Hamblen
I was at a shop a couple of years ago that used 3D prototyping
machines. The nachines worked by projecting laser light into plastic
resin. Where the two beams crossed the resin hardened. It was the
closest thing to a Santa Claus machine I ever saw. You could build up
a plastic model of anything you wanted. You would then make molds
from the models and dies from the molds. The dies could make parts
like transmission housings by the million.
The only shop of any size I've ever been in that was exclusively
manual machining was a place that made gauges. A skilled machinist is
more accurate than a CNC machine. At least that was the case then.
Bud
Jeffrey Hamilton
Hi sistah nilita,............<g>
cheers.....Jeff
CUPE local #1
Ray O'Hara
no I didn't. Malcom Reynolds said china , Pauley dear.
Jeffrey Hamilton
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you are
deluded.
cheers.....Jeff
tankfixer
Unions used to serve a good purpose.
Now they just serve tehmselves..
La N
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most
certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
Mark Borgerson
fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*.
> You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
>
>
LOL! I don't think LaN claimed to speak on behalf of all workers.
OTOH, if she, or any one other worker doesn't agree with TankFixer,
she has valid factual grounds to say the he doesn't speak on
behalf of all workers. IMHO, any assumption about ALL of any
diverse group is bound to be false.
Mark Borgerson
La N
Indeed. Thank you, Mark.
- nilita
tankfixer
Never claimed I was speaking for all the "workers"..
Just as unions don't speak for all "workers"
Jeffrey Hamilton
Spoken like a true right-winger. Without a collective agreement, the workers
_have_ no rights. Safety in numbers @tankfixer, *solidarity* really does
work and for both parties too.
cheers.....Jeff
tankfixer
Yeh they sure are benifitting GM and Chrysler...
Alexander
I would say that the American Unions have benefited China, Taiwan and
just about every nation except America. Our Government unions have
blackmailed a pay raise while social security recipients are now getting
paid by Chinese subsidized checks. Since the 1st of October of this
year. There will be no raises for the Elderly that have paid in to this
system for 50 years of their live.
>
Jeffrey Hamilton
It is not the workers fault that the *Big 3* have no pensions available !
They were negotiated in lieu of wage increases (50 - 60 years ago),
management failed to set-up a system that would invest that money and make
it grow to meet it's future commitments. The resultant is an unfunded
liability. This is why the UAW/CAW are now part owners.
It's not the workers fault that *management* failed to deliver products
wanted by the buying public. They (Big 3)steadily lost market share for
decades, but always paid themselves very, very well. They didn't have to
build a *better Honda*, they just needed to build a Honda. A vehicle that
was well engineered (the Big 3 were the masters of Catch 22 engineering
policies), thrifty on gas and affordable.They had over three decades to see
the demand and ignored it.
7% of the cost of a new car is workers wages.
Workers work, company management is the job of the *high-priced help*.
cheers.......Jeff
Mark Borgerson
paul.c...@gmail.com says...
there. I think the difference betwee Ford and the others lies not
in the unions, but in the management.
Mark Borgerson
Mark Borgerson
employees here in Oregon are taking mandatory unpaid furlough days to
cut costs.
Mark Borgerson
La N
"Mark Borgerson" <mborg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.2561ea4cb...@news.eternal-september.org...
Yes. Management are taking huge salaries whilst not producing products that
consumers want.
- nilita
tankfixer
I noticed that on a job advertisement at work today..
tankfixer
The Unions blackmailed companies into making promises on pensions that
would be unsustainable no matter what you invested the money in.
>
> It's not the workers fault that *management* failed to deliver products
> wanted by the buying public. They (Big 3)steadily lost market share for
> decades, but always paid themselves very, very well. They didn't have to
> build a *better Honda*, they just needed to build a Honda. A vehicle that
> was well engineered (the Big 3 were the masters of Catch 22 engineering
> policies), thrifty on gas and affordable.They had over three decades to see
> the demand and ignored it.
Last time I looked the "workers' built the vehicles...
The lack of build quality on some US vehicles is legendary
tankfixer
I can agree that management seems shortsighted in GM and Chrysler,
especially Chrysler.
The shedding of dealer earlier this year was shameful and will most
likely end with the company disipearing as former buyers walk away.
tankfixer
says...
How do you explain the fact that Ford is making it and GM and Chrysler
are not. when all three build substantially the same sort of vehicle..
Jeffrey Hamilton
> "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bbere...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> It's not the workers fault that *management* failed to deliver
>> products wanted by the buying public. They (Big 3)steadily lost
>> market share for decades, but always paid themselves very, very
>> well. They didn't have to build a *better Honda*, they just needed
>> to build a Honda. A vehicle that was well engineered (the Big 3 were
>> the masters of Catch 22 engineering policies), thrifty on gas and
>> affordable.They had over three decades to see the demand and ignored
>> it.
>>
>
> cars at the time of the collapse was roughly equivalent to Japanese
> quality.
When the US auto makers had poor quality, it was probably due to
non-existant *quality control*, that is a management decision. So was
*catch-22 engineering*.
Once you start to lose marketshare, it's a slippery slope, Fred.
Market demand was not for little boxes. Demand was for
> trucks and SUVs
Have a look at Honda and Toyota sales in North America, Fred. Notice the
rise of sales *and* market share over the years, Fred.
The market has been there for over 30 years, the Big 3 refused to see,
recognize and learn.
>>
>> 7% of the cost of a new car is workers wages.
>>
>
> Well, approximately. It amounts to around $2100 per car, regardless
> of which care that is. Thus for the little cars you think they should
> have been building, labour would have had to be a much higher
> percentage of sales price if you expect people to buy them.
>
So it's not the high amount of workers wages then, agreed.
>> Workers work, company management is the job of the *high-priced help*.
>>
>
> Yes, and for American Union workers, common wisdom was "never buy a
> car built on a Friday or a Monday" because they were even worse than
> the usual run of the mill. That may well be outdated advice, as well.
> I haven't kept track of their quality trends by build day.
See quality control .Answered above.
> Unfortunately, workers don't always work. Unions certainly don't.
> Union bosses are just that - BOSSES.
You might need to have a look at an assembly line operation, Fred, it is a
non-stop operation. They work alright, it's just *your* lack of knowledge of
the subject, that is the problem.
>Generally they no longer represent the workers.
Cite, please.
>I think it's time for some 'union reform' to fix that.
Do you think running a union is some sort of a one day a week operation,
Fred ? The head of the UAW is responsible for more people than Wagoner was
at GM. In 2007 Wagoner made 20 + million dollars, the head of the UAW made
150 thousand dollars. When Wagoner retired he had negotiated a 20 million
dollar retirement package, to be paid over 5 years. The UAW had no
retirement funds due to mis-management by the Wagoners. That is the reason
they (UAW/CAW) are now share holders.
Show me the *union reform* needed, Fred.
cheers......Jeff
Mark Borgerson
fjmc...@gmail.com says...
> Mark Borgerson <mborg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :IIRC, Ford has the same unions. It seemed to work out all right
> :in the unions, but in the management.
>
> They have the same unions, but that's not the difference. The
> difference between Ford and the others is when they renewed their
> long-term lines of credit. Ford did it just before the bank crunch,
> so had money in hand and lines of credit guaranteed for a number of
> years. GM and Chrysler were just about to when the crunch occurred,
> and thus were unable to get any credit lines to cover their cash burn.
>
> It was all a matter of when the rollover of credit lines hit the
> calendar. No difference in management about that.
You mean that the Ford management had no say in when their credit
lines rolled over? I find that difficult to believe.
Mark Borgerson
Peter Skelton
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Mark Borgerson <mborg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>:In article <h4khf51t5ggn50fkd...@4ax.com>,
>:
>
>They're term agreements. It's like any other such agreement. You
>roll them over as they expire.
>
OFCS Fred, these are big agreements, negotiated and signed in
advance.
Peter Skelton
Jeffrey Hamilton
So negotiations between a union and a company are considered *blackmail* by
Republicans are they ?
>> It's not the workers fault that *management* failed to deliver
>> products wanted by the buying public. They (Big 3)steadily lost
>> market share for decades, but always paid themselves very, very
>> well. They didn't have to build a *better Honda*, they just needed
>> to build a Honda. A vehicle that was well engineered (the Big 3 were
>> the masters of Catch 22 engineering policies), thrifty on gas and
>> affordable.They had over three decades to see the demand and ignored
>> it.
>
> Last time I looked the "workers' built the vehicles...
> The lack of build quality on some US vehicles is legendary
>
It's called *quality control*. You need _people_ to perform this job. It's
up to management to implement this sort of program.
Mark Borgerson
> :In article <h4khf51t5ggn50fkd...@4ax.com>,
>
> They're term agreements. It's like any other such agreement. You
> roll them over as they expire.
>
> subject to cash 'surges' (like big auto companies) and that 3 years
> ago you had set up a 3 year term for access to credit lines. Suppose
> you did it in August. Supposed I did the same thing, but happened to
> do it in March. As we come up on March three years later, I go out
> and renegotiate my next three year set of credit lines. Then suppose
> the credit market crashes in June. I have 3 years worth of guaranteed
> lines of credit. You cannot roll yours over for love or money. You're
> in huge trouble and I'm fine. No particularly astute management move
> on my part; mere luck about when the credit market crashed.
>
> This is what happened to Ford and GM. Ford's were ready to roll over
> before the crunch. GM's weren't. So Ford wound up with 3 years worth
> of credit lines and GM wound up with about a week's worth of cash on
> hand.
>
The small businesses I've been associated with have been able to roll
over term credit agreements early for a number of reasons: declining
need for the credit, better offer from another lender, changing
interest rates, etc. etc. Of course, for GM and Chrysler to roll
over early would have required both willingness on the part of
a lender and some predictive abiity on the part of management.
Perhaps one of these was missing. We also generally made sure that
the next agreement was in place many months before the prior agreement
expired. The goal was to make sure there was always a year's credit
available. This was for a chain of computer stores which have
drastic seasonal changes in cash flow---but perhaps not over as
long a term as the auto companies.
Didn't GM get loan guarantees from the government well before
they went into bankruptcy? If they had loan guarantees and
still failed, it would seem to be a management problem.
I wonder to what extent GM's problems were caused by close ties
to GMAC?
Mark Borgerson