How many Captains (O-6) on a CV/CVN?
Charlie Pearce
I find out the more questions I seem to have(!) Firstly, as per the
Subject above, how many officers with the rank of Captain does a
carrier have? I know about the CO, XO, CAG and DCAG - is that it? How
many Commanders? I know squadron COs/XOs and Air Boss all are - what
about the ship's department heads? Is the ship's XO always an
Aviator/NFO, i.e. potential future skipper? How does a CO typically
progress from first O-6 promotion to command of a carrier, and how
long will this take? Is everybody on board under the chain of command
of the CO, or are the air wing personnel under the CAG and his staff?
I think that's it for now, but I'll probably be even more curious in a
bit :-)
Charlie
--
Remove NO-SPOO-PLEASE from my email address to reply
Please send no unsolicited email or foodstuffs
TMOliver
"Charlie Pearce" <charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk> wrote ...
> I've been reading about US aircraft carriers on the Web, and the more
> I find out the more questions I seem to have(!) Firstly, as per the
> Subject above, how many officers with the rank of Captain does a
> carrier have? I know about the CO, XO, CAG and DCAG - is that it? How
> many Commanders? I know squadron COs/XOs and Air Boss all are - what
> about the ship's department heads? Is the ship's XO always an
> Aviator/NFO, i.e. potential future skipper? How does a CO typically
> progress from first O-6 promotion to command of a carrier, and how
> long will this take? Is everybody on board under the chain of command
> of the CO, or are the air wing personnel under the CAG and his staff?
From 45 years ago....(and a small ESSEX Class)
.....and includes no embarked Flag or Staff billets
1 aviation line O6, the "Captain"
Everybody falls under the CO, and generally speaking the XO exercises
administrative control over CAG and the embarked air group
XO - CDR, Aviator (Admin Officer, Ship's Secretary, etc., fairly junior,
Line, Restricted Line or LDOs
Ship's Company:
OPS - CDR, Aviator CIC-CDR, Av., CCA, LCDR, Av., AI, LCDR, Av, COMM, LCDR
Line or Aviator with Comm school)
WPNS (inc. Deck) - CDR, Aviator plus an Ordnance Officer, Aviator or LDO,
and a First Lieutenant, probably 1100, and if you're lucky, a Warrant Bos'un
AIR - CDR, Aviator (FDO, a LCDR Av. plus various division officers), ship's
LSOs
SUP - CDR, Porkchop and at least 1 LCDR plus several JOs
ENG - CDR, EDO (plus DCA and MPA, usually LDOs, LCDR or even some LTs)
MED & DENT - Varies, Usually both CDRs but I've seen an O6 Dental Officer
MARDET - O3 & O1 or O2, USMC
Chaplains, Prot & RC, up to senior CDRs.
Air Group:
CAG, Squadron Commanders, CDRs, Aviators, CAG LSOs, occasiuonal Squadron
Flight Surgeons
>
> I think that's it for now, but I'll probably be even more curious in a
> bit :-)
>
It gets more complicated than that, I'm sure I've left out some important
cogs, and from CVA-59 on the list greww longer.
Wityh no flag or staff, but air group embarked, we'd go to the Med with
200+ officers.
TMO
BlackBeard
>
> Wityh no flag or staff, but air group embarked, we'd go to the Med with
> 200+ officers.
Talk about your variable ballast...
;)
BB
I guess everybody has some mountain to climb,
it's just fate whether you live in Tibet or Kansas...
Jack Linthicum
http://www.history.navy.mil/shiphist/c/cvn-70/1997.pdf
USS -ON (CVN 7 0 ) Organizational Structure
Commanding OfficerCAPT David M. Crocker
Executive OfficerCAPT John W. Goodwin
Command Master Chief AVCM(AW/SS/NAC) Lawrence E. Cummings
Administrative Officer LCDR John P. Ottery, (Jan.-Nov.)
LCDR Jason Patterson, (Nov.-Dec.)
Aircraft Intermediate CDR Mark M. Stone
Maintenance Department
Officer
Air Department OfficerCDR John T. DuGene
Chief EngineerCAPT (Sel) James Hunn, (Jan.-Jun.)
CDR William Donner, (Jun.-Dec.)
Command ChaplainCDR Robert Stone
Combat Systems LCDR Douglas Bischoff
Dental OfficerOfficerCAPT (Sel) John P. Depner
First LieutenantLCDR Boyd E. Gravunder
Legal OfficerLCDR Paul C. LeBlanc
Marine DetachmentCAPT Michael S. Zummer, USMC
Medical OfficerLCDR Louis Gilleran, (Jan.-Aug.)
CDR Robert L. Kauffman, (Aug-Dec.)
Navigation OfficerCAPT Justin Wallace, (Jan.-Mar.)
CDR Larry McCracken, (Mar.-Dec.)
Operations OfficerCDR Philip S. Pritulsky, (Jan.-May)
CDR Preston Pinson, (May-Dec.)
Public Affairs OfficerLCDR (Sell David E. Werner
Reactor Officer CAPT Ronald Y. Heath
Safety OfficerCDR David Petri
Supply OfficerCDR Michael Lyden
Training OfficerLCDR M.K. Wesslen
Weapons OfficerCDR Alden Williams, (Jan.-Jun.)
CDR Dinty Musk, (Jun.-Dec.)
Rich Johnson
news:46379b8f$0$9957$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference between
landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
--
Rich
Enfield NS
Canada
Usnet ads see ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1
TMOliver
"Rich Johnson" <rwh.j...@gmail.com> wrote ....
>>
>>
>
> Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference between
> landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
>
Bridge Watch Section, JOs (ENS, LTJG) maybe plus the Assistant Navigator,
back then a LCDR
OOD
JOOD
JOOW (1, maybe two, depending on the flow of young ensigns.)
....and then there was underway replensishment when the Bridge had a line of
aviator commanders wanting a little time driving alongside (not very hard)
and hoping for the chance to make an approach. Even now, in light of 40+
years of doing other things, I do not recall any evolution as tense as
making a night rendezvous with a replenishment squadron, "joining" up and
coming alongside an oiler, breaking away, then doing the same with at least
one other replenishment ship, AE, AF or AK back then. Finishing flight ops
about 2300, balls to the wall to some dot on the chart, then the rest of the
Mid and some of the 4-8, replensishing, then breaking away for flight
quarters at first light.
Watchstanders in my time were drawn from the OPS and WPNs departments and
occasionally included a LT/LCDR ships's company.
Early in my career when I was still standing CICWO watches below and bridge
watches, I stood a "matched" 6 section watch bill, equivalent to 1 in 3 (4
on, 8 off). Later, with enough JOs, we got fat and happy and stood 1 in 4
on the Bridge.
I'll boast a little. Dated about 1NOV63, addressed to me as an Ensign is my
qualifying letter as OOD(UW) in all types of steaming. A legend at the
time, for there were only known to be two of them among active duty officers
in LANTFLT CVAs. It was reputed to be easier for an Ensign to become
qualified in DDs, DEs and other ship types, but certainly the DDs, DDGs, and
DLGs were not awash with Ensign OODs). Of course, back then, the pace of
operations except in the med was slower, and a major barrier to
qualification was simply a lack of time underway.
TMO
BlackBeard
>
> Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference between
> landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
>
Arrrrrggghh... this is Sci.mil.naval... It's SHIP. You must have
been an airdale.
Andrew Venor
> I've been reading about US aircraft carriers on the Web, and the more
> I find out the more questions I seem to have(!) Firstly, as per the
> Subject above, how many officers with the rank of Captain does a
> carrier have? I know about the CO, XO, CAG and DCAG - is that it? How
> many Commanders? I know squadron COs/XOs and Air Boss all are - what
> about the ship's department heads? Is the ship's XO always an
> Aviator/NFO, i.e. potential future skipper? How does a CO typically
> progress from first O-6 promotion to command of a carrier, and how
> long will this take? Is everybody on board under the chain of command
> of the CO, or are the air wing personnel under the CAG and his staff?
>
> I think that's it for now, but I'll probably be even more curious in a
> bit :-)
>
> Charlie
When I served on the Lincoln we had seven officers on board with the
rank of Captain.
Commanding Officer
Executive Officer
CAG
Reactor Officer
Chief Medical Officer
The Chaplin
The Admirals Chief of Staff
That number would very depending on the ship and what period of time you
are looking at.
ALV
Rich Johnson
@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> On May 1, 3:29 pm, Rich Johnson <rwh.john...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference
between
>> landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
>>
>
> Arrrrrggghh... this is Sci.mil.naval... It's SHIP. You must have
> been an airdale.
>
> ;)
>
You're just jeleaous because this thread is about carriers not subs :)
Jack Linthicum
I included the Marine captain as a check in my Carl Vinson post.
dott.Piergiorgio
> Wityh no flag or staff, but air group embarked, we'd go to the Med with
> 200+ officers.
Definitively cramped, the SCS Essexes.....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
John Ruby
> landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
Bird farms don't need drivers; they just wander around chasing the
wind and make everyone else get out of the way. "Did I mean Turn 090
or 090 Turn? Oh well, let the little boys figure it out."
Jack Linthicum
"small boys"
rwh.j...@gmail.com
Ahh yes the double tonnage rule
Rich
Enfield NS
Canada
Pete Granzeau
wrote:
I assume that the Commanding Officer would have been in fact senior to the
line officers in the ship's company (as well as by definition)?
I assume that the CAG is a passenger, as would be the Admiral's COS?
Jack Linthicum
> On Tue, 01 May 2007 18:58:04 -0700, Andrew Venor <alve...@comcast.net>
A senior Commander who is entering the zone could do nothing better
than to be a Department head on a CVN. There are several (sel) notes
after Carl Vinson officers.
TMOliver
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
Hell, them wuz grown men out there on the bridges of both screening ships
and plane guards (back then, the helos were good weather, bright sunlight
birds). Some of them had even gone to boat school. A CVA OOD soon learned
that one could over-communicate with the small boys.
Simply put "Foxtrot" at the Dip (P&S), and a good DD OOD was smart enough to
step out on the Bridge wing and wet his finger before holding it aloft. The
cool side told him the CVA's likely course to launch and recover a/c, and it
was up to him to figure out how to get there without crossing the CVA's bow
at less than whatever minimal distance sent the CO screaming for his head..
Now, there were bad days, having to chase (more than 180 degrees of turn to
Foxtrot Corpen) the wind to find it, or the dreaded wind shift where the
night marshall could turn out to be somewhere on the beam, throwing a real
monkey wrench into CCA's carefully laid plans.
After long days of operating with the same pair of DDs (I still wake up at
night looking over my shoulder for the running lights of GOODRICH and
PERRY), some mutual trust developed, and the CVA simply steamed about with
"YW" or "YG4" permanently flying faded and tattered from the halyards.
Ships didn't run into each other often because....
(a) TSIVB ("The sea is very broad.")
and
(b) The people driving were self consciously serious about avoiding the
embarrassment likely to arise from any such misadventures.
TMO
Brad Meyer
<tmoliv...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:
>
>"Rich Johnson" <rwh.j...@gmail.com> wrote ....
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference between
>> landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
>>
>
>Bridge Watch Section, JOs (ENS, LTJG) maybe plus the Assistant Navigator,
>back then a LCDR
To be fair, the guy who is actually steering the ship is generally
some E-nothing seaman. He does his steering under orders, but he is
steering.
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
Clothes storage on a DD usually is pretty low grade, making a dress
uni for a court martial hard to scrape up. Classmate at OCS did a tour
on a DER, not realizing that the constant motion of the ship was
transfered to virtually every object on the ship not nailed down. His
coat hangers ground their way through his "good suits" in the 60 days
the bucket was out at sea.
Andrew Venor
I don't know about the doctor or the chaplain, but the line officer
Captains on my list from the Lincoln the one who was most senior by time
in grade was the Reactor Officer. However, that doesn't mater, the
ships CO is senior to the other Captains in his command.
ALV
John Ruby
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
>
> > On May 2, 10:56 am, John Ruby <jdr...@nexant.com> wrote:
> >> > Who actually drives the boat? I mean there's a huge difference between
> >> > landing a jet on a carrier and bringing a huge ship alongside
>
> >> Bird farms don't need drivers; they just wander around chasing the
> >> wind and make everyone else get out of the way. "Did I mean Turn 090
> >> or 090 Turn? Oh well, let the little boys figure it out."
>
> (a) TSIVB ("The sea is very broad.")
>
> and
>
> (b) The people driving were self consciously serious about avoiding the
> embarrassment likely to arise from any such misadventures.
>
> TMO
Or the old saw about collisions at sea ruining your day. Came close
when some overly excited commodore on the CVS held ECOM and night
manuevering drills. After a number of Romeo Tangos, I realized I had
not only lost the bubble, but did not have the least idea where the
guide was - had the sense to call the old man and turn the surface
radar on at the same time.
Pete Granzeau
wrote:
I remember something about access to the CO in the case of officers who are
in fact senior to the XO in Naval Regs. And I added my comment about "by
definition" because I wasn't sure about the Reactor Officer.
Which doesn't answer my question about the CAG. Is he a passenger?
Jack Linthicum
> On Wed, 02 May 2007 13:11:31 -0700, Andrew Venor <alve...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Pete Granzeau wrote:
> >> On Tue, 01 May 2007 18:58:04 -0700, Andrew Venor <alve...@comcast.net>
Sure looks like one here, he is head of the Air Wing, not part of the
ship's company
Fred J. McCall
:
:Which doesn't answer my question about the CAG. Is he a passenger?
:
Only in the sense that the entire Air Group is a passenger. CAG at
least used to be the Department Head of the Aviation Department and
reported directly to the Captain.
This apparently changed somewhere back there and CAG now officially
outranks everybody but the CO, with whom he is considered equal (and
presumably could refuse to launch aircraft or fly a mission even if
the CO wanted to).
In order to replace the function of the old CAG position, a new DCAG
slot was created (and is filled by a second Navy captain, so the Air
Wing now brings aboard 2 captains rather than just one).
So these days the CAG is not a 'passenger', but he doesn't report to
the CO, either. He's essentially the head of a 'guest command' (the
air wing) aboard a 'host command' (the carrier).
--
"This is a war of the unknown warriors; but let all strive
without failing in faith or in duty...."
-- Winston Churchill
Arved Sandstrom
news:umnk331cftn48kjlk...@4ax.com...
> Pete Granzeau <pgra...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :Which doesn't answer my question about the CAG. Is he a passenger?
> :
>
> Only in the sense that the entire Air Group is a passenger. CAG at
> least used to be the Department Head of the Aviation Department and
> reported directly to the Captain.
>
> This apparently changed somewhere back there and CAG now officially
> outranks everybody but the CO, with whom he is considered equal (and
> presumably could refuse to launch aircraft or fly a mission even if
> the CO wanted to).
>
> In order to replace the function of the old CAG position, a new DCAG
> slot was created (and is filled by a second Navy captain, so the Air
> Wing now brings aboard 2 captains rather than just one).
>
> So these days the CAG is not a 'passenger', but he doesn't report to
> the CO, either. He's essentially the head of a 'guest command' (the
> air wing) aboard a 'host command' (the carrier).
Not dissimilar to the essential dichotomy that is a gator loaded up with
Marines. On some ship you'll have the CATF - a Navy officer - and maybe on
the same one or on another you'll have the CLF - a Marine officer - but on
most ships in an ARG you'll have Marine officers rubbing shoulders with Navy
officers of comparable rank, and it's not like the Navy guys can tell the
Marines what to do...they (the sailors) are bus drivers.
Come to think of it, I never did know who the CATF was for 4th MEB (to be
accurate, for the ships carrying 4th MEB and overall commander of ships +
landing force) in Desert Shield/Storm. The CLF and also 4th MEB CO was
MajGen Jenkins.
AHS
Fred J. McCall
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:umnk331cftn48kjlk...@4ax.com...
:> Pete Granzeau <pgra...@cox.net> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :Which doesn't answer my question about the CAG. Is he a passenger?
:> :
:>
:> Only in the sense that the entire Air Group is a passenger. CAG at
:> least used to be the Department Head of the Aviation Department and
:> reported directly to the Captain.
:>
:> This apparently changed somewhere back there and CAG now officially
:> outranks everybody but the CO, with whom he is considered equal (and
:> presumably could refuse to launch aircraft or fly a mission even if
:> the CO wanted to).
:>
:> In order to replace the function of the old CAG position, a new DCAG
:> slot was created (and is filled by a second Navy captain, so the Air
:> Wing now brings aboard 2 captains rather than just one).
:>
:> So these days the CAG is not a 'passenger', but he doesn't report to
:> the CO, either. He's essentially the head of a 'guest command' (the
:> air wing) aboard a 'host command' (the carrier).
:
:Not dissimilar to the essential dichotomy that is a gator loaded up with
:Marines. On some ship you'll have the CATF - a Navy officer - and maybe on
:the same one or on another you'll have the CLF - a Marine officer - but on
:most ships in an ARG you'll have Marine officers rubbing shoulders with Navy
:officers of comparable rank, and it's not like the Navy guys can tell the
:Marines what to do...they (the sailors) are bus drivers.
:
It is very different, though, since the Marines are considered 'cargo'
and essentially have no say. I will also guarantee you that the CO of
that ship can and will give an order as required to that Marine
officer who commands the on board contingent.
The Air Group, on the other hand, has essentially been 'elevated' from
being a ship department to being a parallel command structure. On
both sides the CO and deputy are Navy captains (all aviation rated).
Arved Sandstrom
I don't doubt that some orders are issued - after all, the ship captain is a
captain, and in any case everyone's in the military. In theory you can issue
orders to someone not in your chain of command, not even in your branch of
service...in practise you don't, not unless they have been temporarily
chopped over to you.
Looking at the LPD-1 USS RALEIGH cruisebook for Desert Shield/Storm, I see
that the ship captain actually was a Captain; the senior Marines on board
were the 1st Bn 10th Marines CO (a LtCol) and the 3rd Bn 2nd Marines CO (a
LtCol...also happens to be the Commandant right now). The ship exec was a
LtCdr. Since the ship's captain was the ranking officer, in addition to
being the CO, no doubt he could order the other guys...but I'd be curious as
to how much he'd exercise that prerogative.
And on other ships carrying other units of 4th MEB, you'd have had the 2nd
Marines CO (a full colonel) on another LPD, so the captain of that ship
would have had equal rank and at best maybe more seniority. One would have
to wonder how much ordering is going on there.
There's at least a few Marines on any gator who actually do have real say,
and that's the combat cargo officer (CCO) and the Asst CCO. They are not
actually part of the embarked Marines though, being considered part of the
ship's company.
> The Air Group, on the other hand, has essentially been 'elevated' from
> being a ship department to being a parallel command structure. On
> both sides the CO and deputy are Navy captains (all aviation rated).
Well, I don't know as how the difference between the air group on a carrier
and embarked Marines on an amphib is still all that big, except for the fact
that the air group actually has something to do at sea, and the Marines
don't. The command structures are separate.
To the extent that I see orders being issued by the ship CO to the top
Marine officers - let's say that they are couched in the form of "strong
requests" (as we all know, a request made by an officer...hell by an NCO or
SNCO.. has the force of an order) - I'd guess that it has primarily to do
with requirements for working parties (UNREPs/VERTREPs) and other
augmentation (Marine cooks help out the Navy cooks, riflemen add to ship
defence by setting up MGs and shoulder-launched SAMs etc). But this can be
ironed out in the first week or two, and since it's already implicitly
understood by Marines that they will be asked to do this, the only thing
that needs to be discussed is how many Marines are needed for what.
I myself helped out with replenishment, but hell, *everybody* helped out
with that. :-)
AHS
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:qqal33tm29l1jkjn7...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca> wrote:
>
> > :"Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > :news:umnk331cftn48kjlk...@4ax.com...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/100-13/REF.htm
It would appear some one wrote a paper on this in 1992, Marine, of
course.
Another potential disaster area due to conflicting respon-
sibilities is unity of command. Amphibious doctrine has codi-
fied that the Commander Amphibious Task Force (CATF) is res-
ponsible for all aspects of the amphibious operation. In order
to accomplish this, he is given command of all military activ-
ity in the Amphibious Operation Area (AOA).11 Yet, what hap-
pens when forces belonging to a Carrier Battle Group (CVBG)
are needed to support the ATF? Does the CWC take a back seat
to the CATF? This is not likely to happen since the CWC is
often senior to the designated CATF. While not executed,
Desert Storm plans for both the assault at Ash Shuaybah and
for the raid on Faylakah contained extremely small AOAs,
approximately 20 by 30 nautical miles. The Commander Naval
Forces recognized the need for CVBG support of the ATF, how-
ever the CVBGs would remain outside of the AOA and would not
fall under the command of the CATF. A surface threat to the
ATF also existed, and a surface combatant screen was desig-
nated to protect the ATF's seaward flanks. This force was also
to remain outside the AOA and not under the direct control of
the CATF.12
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1992/MJV.htm
Fred J. McCall
:
:There's at least a few Marines on any gator who actually do have real say,
:and that's the combat cargo officer (CCO) and the Asst CCO. They are not
:actually part of the embarked Marines though, being considered part of the
:ship's company.
And as part of the ship's company, they report to the (Navy) CO and
not the 'cargo'.
:> The Air Group, on the other hand, has essentially been 'elevated' from
:> being a ship department to being a parallel command structure. On
:> both sides the CO and deputy are Navy captains (all aviation rated).
:
:Well, I don't know as how the difference between the air group on a carrier
:and embarked Marines on an amphib is still all that big, except for the fact
:that the air group actually has something to do at sea, and the Marines
:don't. The command structures are separate.
The difference is that the Marines are CARGO. The Air Wing is not.
You keep trying to gloss over this, but it is really the essential
difference.
On a modern carrier with Air Wing aboard you have four Navy O-6
officers, all of whom are required to be aviators. The CO of an
amphib, on the other hand, isn't required to have been a Marine. In
fact, on an aviation ship the CO or XO is required to have been an
aviator (not a Marine).
Think about what that means when it comes to the difference between an
Air Wing and an MEU.
--
"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night
to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
-- George Orwell
Arved Sandstrom
news:1178290321....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
[ SNIP ]
While not executed,
> Desert Storm plans for both the assault at Ash Shuaybah and
> for the raid on Faylakah contained extremely small AOAs,
> approximately 20 by 30 nautical miles.
Another good article:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ytf2mRmpDzoJ:books.nap.edu/html/naval_mine_warfare/appB.pdf+Ash+Shuaybah&hl=et&ct=clnk&cd=4
I'm familiar with the above. As 3/2 Bn NGLO I pretty much had to be. :-)
AHS
Arved Sandstrom
> "Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote:
>
> :
> :There's at least a few Marines on any gator who actually do have real
> say,
> :and that's the combat cargo officer (CCO) and the Asst CCO. They are not
> :actually part of the embarked Marines though, being considered part of
> the
> :ship's company.
>
> And as part of the ship's company, they report to the (Navy) CO and
> not the 'cargo'.
>
> :> The Air Group, on the other hand, has essentially been 'elevated' from
> :> being a ship department to being a parallel command structure. On
> :> both sides the CO and deputy are Navy captains (all aviation rated).
> :
> :Well, I don't know as how the difference between the air group on a
> carrier
> :and embarked Marines on an amphib is still all that big, except for the
> fact
> :that the air group actually has something to do at sea, and the Marines
> :don't. The command structures are separate.
>
> The difference is that the Marines are CARGO. The Air Wing is not.
> You keep trying to gloss over this, but it is really the essential
> difference.
OK, I'll accept that the air wing CO on a carrier is equal to the carrier
CO, just like the CO's of two battalions in the same rifle regiment would
be. I do however remain unconvinced that the CO of an amphib has
_considerable_ authority over the immediate Marine CO(s) embarked on his
ship...I'd expect that he'd have the ability to issue orders in his capacity
as ship's captain (which presumably a carrier CO can even do to the air wing
if necessary), and especially if he is senior. I figure however on a gator
that many deployments and institutionalized practices have reduced or
eliminated the need for the gator CO to "order" any of the ranking Marine
officers...I suspect it's more in the nature of "this is what I would like".
And the Marines really aren't "cargo". No more than planes launching off a
carrier are. The embarked Marines are a weapon just like the stuff the
planes carry. The option is there to strike with planes from the carrier,
strike with Marines from the amphibs, or both. You make it sound like the
embarked Marines just float around.
> On a modern carrier with Air Wing aboard you have four Navy O-6
> officers, all of whom are required to be aviators. The CO of an
> amphib, on the other hand, isn't required to have been a Marine. In
> fact, on an aviation ship the CO or XO is required to have been an
> aviator (not a Marine).
Not quite true as to the latter - USMC Colonel Douglas Yurovich assumed
command of CVW 9 in January of last year, and had been deputy commander
since 2004. You forgot all those pesky Marine aviators... :-)
> Think about what that means when it comes to the difference between an
> Air Wing and an MEU.
I am burning brain calories, Fred. I'll get back to you.
AHS
Jack Linthicum
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:m3lm33hplg26kpdtj...@4ax.com...
Should point out that the Marines and Aircraft may be cargo to some,
but they are "cargo" with a mission, usually spelled out in an
oporder directed from the President through the chain of command to
the people and equipment that will carry out that order. So an order
to land x-battalion on Blue beach and support with additional troops
and firepower is not the City Bus Lines dropping people off at the
mall.
Pete Granzeau
wrote:
>Pete Granzeau <pgra...@cox.net> wrote:
>:
>:Which doesn't answer my question about the CAG. Is he a passenger?
>:
>Only in the sense that the entire Air Group is a passenger. CAG at
>least used to be the Department Head of the Aviation Department and
>reported directly to the Captain.
>
>This apparently changed somewhere back there and CAG now officially
>outranks everybody but the CO, with whom he is considered equal (and
>presumably could refuse to launch aircraft or fly a mission even if
>the CO wanted to).
>
>In order to replace the function of the old CAG position, a new DCAG
>slot was created (and is filled by a second Navy captain, so the Air
>Wing now brings aboard 2 captains rather than just one).
>
>So these days the CAG is not a 'passenger', but he doesn't report to
>the CO, either. He's essentially the head of a 'guest command' (the
>air wing) aboard a 'host command' (the carrier).
If an AB3 in the air wing fell overboard, who would be relieved of command?
The CO of the CVN, or the CAG?
Fred J. McCall
:On Thu, 03 May 2007 22:27:05 GMT, Fred J. McCall <fmc...@earthlink.net>
Neither.