Submarine Deck Gun... How did it work... Wet/dry?
Alexander Thesoso
lanyard - go boom."
My specific question is: Were they wet or dry?
Were the barrel, breech and firing mechanisms exposed to the salt water, and
if so, were special measures taken (eg., plating, grease) to keep them from
rusting, corroding and crudding up?
Were they kept dry? If so, how? Muzzle plug and gasket, breech and
mechanism seals?
Thanks.
Ray O'Hara
"Alexander Thesoso" <alexande...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7kDBi.932$ih.31@trnddc01...
a screw in muzzel plug kept water out of the barrel. constant maintenance
kept it clean and in working order.
i've read of crews forgetting to remove the plug before firing with
unfortunate results.
Ray O'Hara
The 3 inch 50 caliber Mk 21 (76mm) dual purpose cannon deck gun was standard
issue on board many United States Navy Submarines, Destroyers and Destroyer
Escorts (DE) during the early stages of World War II. By US Navy standards,
it was generally considered to be a defensive weapon designed to be used
against aircraft that were far away or very high up, although on a submarine
it was primarily employed against enemy surface ships. Mounted on a pedestal
either forward or aft of the conning tower, this weapon could fire a 13 lb
high explosive projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second
and a maximum range of just over 16,000 yards with a ceiling of 21,500 feet.
This gun could elevate to 85° and depress to 10°. Cartridges were packed
four to a box, the weight of a full box being about 125 lbs with cartridges
weighing approximately 32lbs each. The 3 inch 50 had a watertight tampion
for the muzzle and a watertight cover for the breech with stainless steel
mechanisms and bore. This weapon could be used with equally deadly effect
against both surface and aerial targets.
Andrew Chaplin
news:qdudnfeYCJ-Sm0rb...@rcn.net...
Not Ray's work; copied from http://www.valoratsea.com/350.htm.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Jack Linthicum
http://www.valoratsea.com/arms.htm
This is the manual : The Fleet Type Submarine, Navpers 16160, the
first in a series of submarine training manuals that was completed
just after WW II. The series describes the peak of WW II US submarine
technology.
In this online version of the manual we have attempted to keep the
flavor of the original layout while taking advantage of the Web's
universal accessibility. Different browsers and fonts will cause the
text to move, but the text will remain roughly where it is in the
original manual. In addition to errors we have attempted to preserve
from the original (for example, it was CS Hunley, not CS Huntley),
this text was captured by a combination of optical character
recognition and human typist. Each method creates errors that are
compounded while encoding for the Web. Please report any typos, or
particularly annoying layout issues to in...@maritime.org for
correction.
TMOliver
"Ray O'Hara" <mary.p...@rcn.com> wrote ...
>
>
> The 3 inch 50 caliber Mk 21 (76mm) dual purpose cannon deck gun was
> standard
> issue on board many United States Navy Submarines, Destroyers and
> Destroyer
> Escorts (DE) during the early stages of World War II. By US Navy
> standards,
> it was generally considered to be a defensive weapon designed to be used
> against aircraft that were far away or very high up, although on a
> submarine
> it was primarily employed against enemy surface ships. Mounted on a
> pedestal
> either forward or aft of the conning tower, this weapon could fire a 13 lb
> high explosive projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second
> and a maximum range of just over 16,000 yards with a ceiling of 21,500
> feet.
> This gun could elevate to 85° and depress to 10°. Cartridges were packed
> four to a box, the weight of a full box being about 125 lbs with
> cartridges
> weighing approximately 32lbs each. The 3 inch 50 had a watertight tampion
> for the muzzle and a watertight cover for the breech with stainless steel
> mechanisms and bore. This weapon could be used with equally deadly effect
> against both surface and aerial targets.
>
>
Most folks would attribute a "cut & paste" to its author (who in this case
obviously had never attempted to fire any Marks of the old 3"/50 hand
loaders in an AA role in local control, the sort of shooting a sub would
do - or under director control for that matter)
Ray, before waxing poetic re: 3"/50s, most photos and descriptions of US
fleet boats by or soon after Pearl Harbor credit them with 4"/50 LA s or
5"/25 "semi DP"s as deck guns, augmented by 40mm Bofors and Oerlikons on the
conning tower/cigarette decks in the latter years of the war. The GATOS
were planned to take the 3", and construction started before PH, but I'm not
sure any actually deployed with the "popgun". A couple of the USN's "Big
Boats" of the 30s came with 6" LA deck guns which must have been a nightmare
to serve in any sea state.
Alden's THE FLEET SUBMARINE IN THE USN remains a standard reference
Most with any experience with various models, most common as wartime "Main
Batteries" on several classes of US DEs might claim that signal halyards
provided a greater threat to a/c.
TMO
Frogwatch
> "Ray O'Hara" <mary.palmu...@rcn.com> wrote ...
Wow, a range of 16,000 yards, thats 9 miles. That would be on the
horizon I think.How often did they use this weapon on things very far
away?
Dave
Paul J. Adam
Frogwatch <dbo...@mindspring.com> writes
>Wow, a range of 16,000 yards, thats 9 miles. That would be on the
>horizon I think.How often did they use this weapon on things very far
>away?
Never, if they had any hope of hitting. Submarine deck guns were
short-range beasts, with surprise a primary part of the attack. D K
Brown describes his time in HMS Tabard, winning the Fleet gunnery
contest: based on the tactic of surfacing close astern of the target and
aiming for his stern gun, the competition started with the umpire's
"Go!" at periscope depth and ended when the first shell hit the (small)
target: the aim was to surface about 300 yards off the target's quarter,
and strong men were picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced:
Brown estimates about a ton and a half of water would come in.
>
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides
Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk
William Hamblen
<alexande...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>My specific question is: Were they wet or dry?
The 3" and 5" that were used on many US WWII submarines were wet.
They had corrosion resistant steel parts.
Bud
--
The night is just the shadow of the Earth.
Alan Lothian
<ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snippaggio>
> Brown estimates about a ton and a half of water would come in.
> >
Good clean fun, then.
--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian.
Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
Arved Sandstrom
If you are in the NA at 100 metres everything cruds up - yes, lots and lots
of grease.
U-boats used 88mm and 10.5 cm guns (the 88 mm was not the same as the AT/AA
gun). Type VIIs had the 88, Type IXs had the 105mm. Both guns were referred
to as antiship cannon, and were served by a gunner, layer and loader, under
the supervision of a watch officer.
German U-boats eventually decided not to use deck guns.
AHS
Brian Sharrock
"Andrew Chaplin" <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message
news:uYWdnY1i7rQUk0rb...@giganews.com...
Thanks for the URL - it was self-evident that the work was not from the
shift-key-less keyboard of the pseudo-paddy. He obviously never learnt to
attribute nor got as far as 'plagiarise in his perusal of the dictionary ...
expecting him to get to 'punctuation' is an expectation too far!
--
Brian
Brian Sharrock
"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
> In message <1188506009.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Frogwatch <dbo...@mindspring.com> writes
>>Wow, a range of 16,000 yards, thats 9 miles. That would be on the
>>horizon I think.How often did they use this weapon on things very far
>>away?
>
> Never, if they had any hope of hitting. Submarine deck guns were
> short-range beasts, with surprise a primary part of the attack. D K Brown
> describes his time in HMS Tabard, winning the Fleet gunnery contest: based
> on the tactic of surfacing close astern of the target and aiming for his
> stern gun, the competition started with the umpire's "Go!" at periscope
> depth and ended when the first shell hit the (small) target: the aim was
> to surface about 300 yards off the target's quarter, and strong men were
> picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced: Brown estimates about a
> ton and a half of water would come in.
>>
>
Although a "a ton and a half of water " seems quite a lot; it's only a
(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
Fresh water is (mixing units) I tonne per metre cubed; about 'that by that
by that' . Not a lot of water considering they were pushing open the hatch
cover while the boat was still surfacing.
> Paul J. Adam - mainbox{at}jrwlynch[dot]demon(dot)co<dot>uk
--
Brian
Andrew Robert Breen
Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>> picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced: Brown estimates about a
>> ton and a half of water would come in.
>
>(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
I imagine that it felt like a lot if you were standing below the hatch.
Would have felt like even more to the picked team heaving the hatch open.
Another point - given the sometimes dubious transient stability of
submarines surfacing (trapped water in the casing and suchlike) - it
stikes me that even a tone and a half added well up in the boat could be
potentially awkward. Presumably arrangements were devised for it to drain
to the bilge as fast as possible..
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Brian Sharrock
"Andrew Robert Breen" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:11885761...@leri.aber.ac.uk...
> In article <BTWBi.27511$Db6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>> to surface about 300 yards off the target's quarter, and strong men were
>>> picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced: Brown estimates about a
>>> ton and a half of water would come in.
>>
>>Although a "a ton and a half of water " seems quite a lot; it's only a
>>(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
>
> I imagine that it felt like a lot if you were standing below the hatch.
> Would have felt like even more to the picked team heaving the hatch open.
>
gobs of water perhaps a pound or two at a time, not particularly comfortable
but not 'a ton and a half' instantaneously. The hatch cover would
experience decreasing water pressure as the boat surfaced, and IIRC the
hatch was counter-balanced. I'm not suggesting that I'd have been shouting
'bags me for the the strong men hatch-popping crew!' ... but they weren't
supermen ; just ordinary matelots earnig their 'hard-lying' supplement.
> Another point - given the sometimes dubious transient stability of
> submarines surfacing (trapped water in the casing and suchlike) - it
> stikes me that even a tone and a half added well up in the boat could be
> potentially awkward. Presumably arrangements were devised for it to drain
> to the bilge as fast as possible..
>
It's called 'design' amongst Constructors :)
> -(Martin Sinclair)
--
Brian
Andrew Robert Breen
Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Andrew Robert Breen" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:11885761...@leri.aber.ac.uk...
>> In article <BTWBi.27511$Db6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>> Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>>> to surface about 300 yards off the target's quarter, and strong men were
>>>> picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced: Brown estimates about a
>>>> ton and a half of water would come in.
>>>
>>>Although a "a ton and a half of water " seems quite a lot; it's only a
>>>(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
>>
>> I imagine that it felt like a lot if you were standing below the hatch.
>> Would have felt like even more to the picked team heaving the hatch open.
>>
>Remember that the crew don't experience all the water in one go. It comes in
>gobs of water perhaps a pound or two at a time, not particularly comfortable
>but not 'a ton and a half' instantaneously. The hatch cover would
Sure - but it will still feel like a lot of water (Brown comes across as
writing with feeling in this passage..).
>experience decreasing water pressure as the boat surfaced, and IIRC the
>hatch was counter-balanced. I'm not suggesting that I'd have been shouting
>'bags me for the the strong men hatch-popping crew!' ... but they weren't
>supermen ; just ordinary matelots earnig their 'hard-lying' supplement.
Which would have been well-earned on some of those old boats, too - though
not to the extent that it would have been on the Us and Vs, especially
when operated out East ("the conditions you report will not sustain life")
>> Another point - given the sometimes dubious transient stability of
>> submarines surfacing (trapped water in the casing and suchlike) - it
>> stikes me that even a tone and a half added well up in the boat could be
>> potentially awkward. Presumably arrangements were devised for it to drain
>> to the bilge as fast as possible..
>>
>It's called 'design' amongst Constructors :)
This, I guess, is why constructors who'd served in operational ships were
valuable. They'd know that things are done (like this trick with the
hatch) that the uninitiated would not think of, and design accordingly.
Eugene Griessel
>In article <BTWBi.27511$Db6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>>> to surface about 300 yards off the target's quarter, and strong men were
>>> picked to open the hatches as the boat surfaced: Brown estimates about a
>>> ton and a half of water would come in.
>>
>>Although a "a ton and a half of water " seems quite a lot; it's only a
>>(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
>
>I imagine that it felt like a lot if you were standing below the hatch.
>Would have felt like even more to the picked team heaving the hatch open.
>
>Another point - given the sometimes dubious transient stability of
>submarines surfacing (trapped water in the casing and suchlike) - it
>stikes me that even a tone and a half added well up in the boat could be
>potentially awkward. Presumably arrangements were devised for it to drain
>to the bilge as fast as possible..
As far as I understand the technique used, a pressure was built up in
the boat so the hatch literally blew open at the last moment of a
rapid surfacing - so a bit of water would not really make all that
much difference.
Getting slightly off-topic, the 3 inch Finch gun used on most S class
boats of the RN had actually been made during WW1 as an anti-aircraft
gun. I know that Ben Bryant, an aficionado of the surface attack,
was not enamoured with it. His description of taking over the HMS
Safari at Cammell Laird says it all: "First and foremost I wanted to
see what gun we had got, that had been the worst feature of the
Sealion class. I looked over the side of the dock and suddenly black
depression replaced bubbling excitement. On the casing was perched
that deplorable relic of World War I, the 3-inch 20 cwt. Mark 1 - this
one had actually been made in 1915." Bryant was the recipient of the
quip, at one stage, from the torpedo room "We know we are only the
secondary armament down here." He calculated that during the siege of
Malta he was averaging 10 tons of enemy shipping sunk for every 16
pound 3 inch round fired. Which is probably not a bad trade-off. He
does mention that the gunner was frequently won't to use, liberally, a
lead faced mallet in persuading the gun to operate during innumerable
problems.
Another little mention that Bryant makes is of visiting a captured
U-Boat at Barrow while he was standing by Safari. His own words were:
"I could have wept; she had everything I had ever dreamed of and some
things which even I could never have dreamed of. It was a boat into
which a brilliant designer had compressed every requirement of the
practical submariner, a wonderful combination of ideal fighting
submersible and economical production."
Eugene L Griessel
If you mix milk of magnesia with vodka and orange juice,
do you get a Phillips screw driver?
BlackBeard
>
> This, I guess, is why constructors who'd served in operational ships were
> valuable. They'd know that things are done (like this trick with the
> hatch) that the uninitiated would not think of, and design accordingly.
Absolutely! And with the usual Naval efficiency all the designers that
rode Submarines were immediatley but to work in the Aircraft Carrier
division. All who rode in Carriers went to the Cruiser shops.
Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
sausage factory. :/
BB
I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...
Eugene Griessel
>On Aug 31, 9:22 am, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
>>
>> This, I guess, is why constructors who'd served in operational ships were
>> valuable. They'd know that things are done (like this trick with the
>> hatch) that the uninitiated would not think of, and design accordingly.
>
>Absolutely! And with the usual Naval efficiency all the designers that
>rode Submarines were immediatley but to work in the Aircraft Carrier
>division. All who rode in Carriers went to the Cruiser shops.
>Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
>experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
>sausage factory. :/
>
Nonsense. The hydraulic system, at least, had been designed by a
kitten playing with a ball of wool.
Eugene L Griessel
No one can feel as helpless as the owner of a sick goldfish.
Paul J. Adam
<b.sha...@ntlworld.com> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:+GtFbGI3...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk...
>> ton and a half of water would come in.
>Although a "a ton and a half of water " seems quite a lot; it's only a
>(about) filiing cabinet's worth.
>Fresh water is (mixing units) I tonne per metre cubed; about 'that by that
>by that' . Not a lot of water considering they were pushing open the hatch
>cover while the boat was still surfacing.
Quite a bit when it's *you* the water's coming down on, though :)
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides
Fred J. McCall
:
:Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
:experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
:sausage factory. :/
:
They were looking for designers who had the most possible in common
with the pool of crewmen, BB... :-)
--
"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night
to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
-- George Orwell
Fred J. McCall
:
:Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
:experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
:sausage factory. :/
Paul J. Adam
BlackBeard <spk...@msn.com> writes
>Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
>experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
>sausage factory. :/
I thought that was where they recruited the IC men :)
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides
Eugene Griessel
>In message <1188579653....@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>BlackBeard <spk...@msn.com> writes
>>Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
>>experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
>>sausage factory. :/
>
>I thought that was where they recruited the IC men :)
>
Only the ones who don't come up to scratch in the engineering
discipline and who made bad sausages.
Eugene L Griessel
If it wasn't for venetian blinds, it would be curtains for all of us!
Jack Linthicum
> "Paul J. Adam" <n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In message <1188579653.600053.42...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> >BlackBeard <spk_...@msn.com> writes
> >>Submarine design was accomplished by a cadre of highly trained and
> >>experienced chimpanzees who had spent the pre-war years working in a
> >>sausage factory. :/
>
> >I thought that was where they recruited the IC men :)
>
> Only the ones who don't come up to scratch in the engineering
> discipline and who made bad sausages.
>
> Eugene L Griessel
>
> If it wasn't for venetian blinds, it would be curtains for all of us!
Is that from the Bismarck quote about laws and sausages? Anyone who
has walked the length of a WWII American submarine knows that the
designers were all about 9 inches wide, about 60 inches tall and had
legs that were about 40 inches long. Oh, yes and had spent all of
their adult life in a humid environment with their olifactory senses
removed.
BlackBeard
> "Paul J. Adam" <n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Let em know when the three of you are done, I can't answer right now,
really, just laughing to hard to type. Hooowee...
No really... Too funny...
*harumph*
:P''''
guy
> In article <O7XBi.33738$ph7....@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian Sharrock <b.sharr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >"Andrew Robert Breen" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
> >news:11885761...@leri.aber.ac.uk...
> >> Brian Sharrock <b.sharr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>>"Paul J. Adam" <n...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
Was the above quote not also applied to Flower class corvettes in the
Attlantic? The short foc'sle ones IIRC.
Guy
> --
> Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
> Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
> money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
guy
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well that got stuffed didnt it? I meant the quote about 'conditions
not supporting life'
Guy
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
guyswe...@googlemail.com (guy) wrote:
> Well that got stuffed didnt it? I meant the quote about 'conditions
> not supporting life'
The quote about the Flowers I remember was that "they would roll on a
wet lawn".
Ken Young
Richard Casady
<alexande...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Back when submarines had deck guns, how did they work? I don't mean "Pull
>lanyard - go boom."
>
>My specific question is: Were they wet or dry?
>
>Were the barrel, breech and firing mechanisms exposed to the salt water, and
>if so, were special measures taken (eg., plating, grease) to keep them from
>rusting, corroding and crudding up?
>
>Were they kept dry? If so, how? Muzzle plug and gasket, breech and
>mechanism seals?
I seem to recall from somewhere, that the US 5 inch 25 cal submarine
gun was made from stainless steel. Wouldn't amaze me if it was BS.
If it were true you could polish one to a mirror shine, and put it on
the lawn.
Casady
Peter Skelton
Chromium plated bores only and not all subs got them. The gun was
the one used as BB AA artillery in the twenties and thirties,
fitted to a wet mount with a longer recoil. SOme guns nay have
been recycled from BB upgrades, sources do not agree.
Peter Skelton
TMOliver
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:dppid356s6krrqkcr...@4ax.com...
>
> Chromium plated bores only and not all subs got them. The gun was
> the one used as BB AA artillery in the twenties and thirties,
> fitted to a wet mount with a longer recoil. SOme guns nay have
> been recycled from BB upgrades, sources do not agree.
>
>
In 1942/43, there would have been a number 0f exBB 5"/25s around from old
BBs(although IIRC, at least TEXAS, ARKANSAS and another never lost theirs).
Most appear to gave gone to fleet boats, while the 5"/51 BB secondary
batteries showed up on auxiliaries. 4"/50s off old 4 stack DDs were also
mounted on some fleet boats. I'd be interested at the level at which the
decision on which gun to mount was made, both on new construction and to
replace 3"/50s in prewar boats.
For all the bad reputation and commentary, a number of tenders kept the 1.1"
mounts they received courtesy of combat ship re-gunning throughout the war.
I wonder when the last water cooled .50 Brownings were gone.
TMO
Andrew Robert Breen
guy <guyswe...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 31 Aug, 21:01, guy <guyswetten...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 31 Aug, 17:22, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
>>
>> > Which would have been well-earned on some of those old boats, too - though
>> > not to the extent that it would have been on the Us and Vs, especially
>> > when operated out East ("the conditions you report will not sustain life")
>>
>> Attlantic? The short foc'sle ones IIRC.
>
>not supporting life'
Ah, now I see..
No, as far as I know it was only applied to the smal submarines operating
in the far East, and it wasn't meant as a joke. One captain reported
temperature and humidity levels on his boat and received the response that
those conditions would not support life. Which must have come as cheering
news. The story is pretty well-supported - it's in Young's "One of our
submarines", and he commanded an identical boat in the same waters.
The US boats, of course, were twice the size (or close-on) and
air-conditioned.
The Flowers - even the short-snout ones - would still have been more
habitable than trawlers or Algerines, both of which were being used as
escorts, and I'd suspect they were better than things like _Skate_ as
well.
--
Andy Breen ~ Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
(Peter D. Rieden)
Eugene Griessel
Bryant reports taking a "distinguished physiologist" on patrol. This
worthy laid out "little glass saucers containing pink jelly" (agar in
a petrie dish?) at various times and then sealing these up and doing
a bacteria count It was reported that there were fewer germs in
the submarine than would be found in a "country house with the french
windows open". It was reckoned the bacteria could not take the
battery gas.
Eugene L Griessel
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.
Arved Sandstrom
Andy, when LPD-1 RALEIGH broke down it's ac (assuming it ever had any) and
also lost distillation, going through the Red Sea with sea surface
temperatures of about 30 C, things got very unpleasant. Let's just say that
tempers were short. They did let us have a Navy shower of saltwater every
second day - that was nice of them.
It got so bad that the ship's CO authorized Marines to sleep on the
decks...which we did. A cool Red Sea breeze is OK. You take your chances
about maybe rolling off the side.
AHS
Eugene Griessel
>Andy, when LPD-1 RALEIGH broke down it's ac (assuming it ever had any) and
>also lost distillation, going through the Red Sea with sea surface
>temperatures of about 30 C, things got very unpleasant. Let's just say that
>tempers were short. They did let us have a Navy shower of saltwater every
>second day - that was nice of them.
>
>It got so bad that the ship's CO authorized Marines to sleep on the
>decks...which we did. A cool Red Sea breeze is OK. You take your chances
>about maybe rolling off the side.
I thought you marines were tough guys! Course we had it tough. Did a
dash from Sharm el Sheikh to Bab el Mandeb and back on INS Romach
during 1977 - no showers being permitted. In fact no undressing being
permitted in case we had to go into action at the drop of a hat.
And half of that time being spent in the engine rooms......
Eugene L Griessel
Auditors are the people who go in after the war is lost and bayonet the wounded.
guy
> In article <1188590710.208593.109...@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> guy <guyswetten...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >On 31 Aug, 21:01, guy <guyswetten...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On 31 Aug, 17:22, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
>
> >> > Which would have been well-earned on some of those old boats, too - though
> >> > not to the extent that it would have been on the Us and Vs, especially
> >> > when operated out East ("the conditions you report will not sustain life")
>
> >> Attlantic? The short foc'sle ones IIRC.
>
> >Well that got stuffed didnt it? I meant the quote about 'conditions
> >not supporting life'
>
> Ah, now I see..
>
> No, as far as I know it was only applied to the smal submarines operating
> in the far East, and it wasn't meant as a joke. One captain reported
> temperature and humidity levels on his boat and received the response that
> those conditions would not support life. Which must have come as cheering
> news. The story is pretty well-supported - it's in Young's "One of our
> submarines", and he commanded an identical boat in the same waters.
>
> The US boats, of course, were twice the size (or close-on) and
> air-conditioned.
>
> The Flowers - even the short-snout ones - would still have been more
> habitable than trawlers or Algerines, both of which were being used as
> escorts, and I'd suspect they were better than things like _Skate_ as
> well.
>
> --
> Andy Breen ~ Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
> "your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
> (Peter D. Rieden)
Right as usual Andy, have just checked and the signal as sent by Flag
Officer Submarines to HMS Truant
Capt Jack Brrome - 'Make another Signal'
Guy
Dennis
>>>Well that got stuffed didnt it? I meant the quote about 'conditions
>>>not supporting life'
>>
>> Ah, now I see..
>>
>> No, as far as I know it was only applied to the smal submarines
>> operating in the far East, and it wasn't meant as a joke. One captain
>> reported temperature and humidity levels on his boat and received the
>> response that those conditions would not support life. Which must
>> have come as cheering news. The story is pretty well-supported - it's
>> in Young's "One of our submarines", and he commanded an identical
>> boat in the same waters.
I read a story about a sailor on HMS Thule in WWII in the East dying
from heat stroke.
> Andy, when LPD-1 RALEIGH broke down it's ac (assuming it ever had any)
> and also lost distillation, going through the Red Sea with sea surface
> temperatures of about 30 C, things got very unpleasant. Let's just say
> that tempers were short. They did let us have a Navy shower of
> saltwater every second day - that was nice of them.
>
> It got so bad that the ship's CO authorized Marines to sleep on the
> decks...which we did. A cool Red Sea breeze is OK. You take your
> chances about maybe rolling off the side.
By all accounts I've read, the Red Sea is a thoroughly miserably
place, both the climate and the people one encounters.
Dennis
Eugene Griessel
> By all accounts I've read, the Red Sea is a thoroughly miserably
>place, both the climate and the people one encounters.
It depends, I suppose - I enjoyed the place.
Eugene L Griessel
Nothing in the known universe travels faster than a bad cheque.
- I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
Vince
some of the finest scuba
diving in the world
Vince
Eugene Griessel
Not anymore I'm told. Had a pal go to Sharm last year and he claimed
all he saw were the bubbles from the other ten thousand divers on the
same wreck at the same time. May have been overstating the numbers a
tad but from some of the pics he showed me he wasn't too wrong on the
bubbles.....
Some of the pictures he showed had dozens, literally dozens, of dive
boats all clustering around one wreck. Each with about 20 or so
divers aboard.
Eugene L Griessel
Judo: Japanese art of conquering by yielding.
The Western equivalent is 'Yes, Dear.'
Dennis
>>some of the finest scuba
>>diving in the world
>
> Not anymore I'm told. Had a pal go to Sharm last year and he claimed
> all he saw were the bubbles from the other ten thousand divers on the
> same wreck at the same time. May have been overstating the numbers a
> tad but from some of the pics he showed me he wasn't too wrong on the
> bubbles.....
>
> Some of the pictures he showed had dozens, literally dozens, of dive
> boats all clustering around one wreck. Each with about 20 or so
> divers aboard.
What was the wreck?
Dennis
Eugene Griessel
No idea - the place is littered with dive wrecks. I think from Sharm
there must be about 20 good size ones within a few hours sailing. I
can ask him next time I see him - if I remember.
Eugene L Griessel
Eagleson's Law: Any code of your own that you haven't looked at
for six or more months, might as well have been written by someone
else. (Eagleson is an optimist, the real number is more like 3 weeks.)
Vince
> Vince <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote:
>
>> Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>> Dennis <tsalag...@asus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> By all accounts I've read, the Red Sea is a thoroughly miserably
>>>> place, both the climate and the people one encounters.
>>> It depends, I suppose - I enjoyed the place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Eugene L Griessel
>>>
>>> Nothing in the known universe travels faster than a bad cheque.
>>>
>>> - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
>> some of the finest scuba
>> diving in the world
>
> Not anymore I'm told. Had a pal go to Sharm last year and he claimed
> all he saw were the bubbles from the other ten thousand divers on the
> same wreck at the same time. May have been overstating the numbers a
> tad but from some of the pics he showed me he wasn't too wrong on the
> bubbles.....
>
> Some of the pictures he showed had dozens, literally dozens, of dive
> boats all clustering around one wreck. Each with about 20 or so
> divers aboard.
does he complain about the other folks at the football match?
Vince
Eugene Griessel
He didn't pay really big bucks at the football match whereas here he
blew a considerable sum of folding money for a once-in-a-lifetime sort
of experience. I still regaled him with tales of how stunningly
translucent the water was. If you see the murk we spend most of our
lives diving in over here - you cannot see Jaws at three paces -
you'll understand what pleasure being able to see a couple of hundred
feet through gin-clear water is. And all he saw was bubbles ......
Eugene L Griessel
He had occasional flashes of silence that made his conversation
delightful
Vince
ofcs
If you want to dive alone, dive alone
no big deal even in sharm
Vince
Eugene Griessel
I doubt its much of an option when you book one of those package deals
which includes a liveaboard. You have to go where they go, dive where
they dive. Mainly because the deal includes the rental of all the
equipment as well.
Eugene L Griessel
He who hesitates is probably right.
Brian Sharrock
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
news:46fb3f1...@news.uunet.co.za...
Vince writes as if he's actually experienced Sharm (el Sheik?), whereas you
write of a 'pal's' experience.
I haven't been to Sharm El Sheik but I know my daughter who visited in the
spring of this year.
She experienced this all board-equipment-provided-guided tour too.
interestingly the large ketch rigged yacht , flying the Egyptian flag,
provided a DVD (at a cost) for the tourists. The DVD showed all of the
passengers, in all aspects of their cruise. [The crew didn't know who would
purchase and who would disdain the DVD so didn't concentrate on any
particular tourist but ensured they'd 'got' everyone. The dive sequences
have lots of shots of (almost) everybody waving to camera AND lots of scenes
of 'clouds' (flocks? schools? pods?) of fish. Sometimes the fish are in
front / behind the tourists; sometime seen individually. I thought they
might be stock / library shots interspersed into the shots of tourists; but
my daughter claims that she saw most, if not all, of these fish- at the
time - in that location! Sure; there were lots of bubbles too ... all
visible in the gin-clear water.
Does your 'pal' have a glass that's half-empty?
I'm quietly astounded that a sail (and motor) yacht has the facility to
capture images, edit it into a semi-decent narrative, burn it onto 'n'
copies for sale. while maintaining a very decent standard of 'care' and
safety to their clients and feeding them !
BTW; my daughter didn't have any previous knowledge of the area and used the
internet to 'book' a deal.
It may have been 'luck of the draw' ; but her experience -and DVD record-
don't quite tally with the experience of your 'pal'.
--
Brian
Eugene Griessel
>Vince writes as if he's actually experienced Sharm (el Sheik?), whereas you
>write of a 'pal's' experience.
I have lived at Sharm for some months, done quite a bit of diving
there - but many years ago when the number of tourists could be
counted on one hand.
>I haven't been to Sharm El Sheik but I know my daughter who visited in the
>spring of this year.
>
>She experienced this all board-equipment-provided-guided tour too.
>interestingly the large ketch rigged yacht , flying the Egyptian flag,
>provided a DVD (at a cost) for the tourists. The DVD showed all of the
>passengers, in all aspects of their cruise. [The crew didn't know who would
>purchase and who would disdain the DVD so didn't concentrate on any
>particular tourist but ensured they'd 'got' everyone. The dive sequences
>have lots of shots of (almost) everybody waving to camera AND lots of scenes
>of 'clouds' (flocks? schools? pods?) of fish. Sometimes the fish are in
>front / behind the tourists; sometime seen individually. I thought they
>might be stock / library shots interspersed into the shots of tourists; but
>my daughter claims that she saw most, if not all, of these fish- at the
>time - in that location! Sure; there were lots of bubbles too ... all
>visible in the gin-clear water.
>
>Does your 'pal' have a glass that's half-empty?
>
>I'm quietly astounded that a sail (and motor) yacht has the facility to
>capture images, edit it into a semi-decent narrative, burn it onto 'n'
>copies for sale. while maintaining a very decent standard of 'care' and
>safety to their clients and feeding them !
It's all fairly simple these days with digital technology. The only
real hassle is the decent narrative and the editing. We have daytrip
operations out here that can supply you your DVD before they even get
back to harbour. They probably use a template and then slip in the
day's images with narration to cover the specifics.
>BTW; my daughter didn't have any previous knowledge of the area and used the
>internet to 'book' a deal.
>
>It may have been 'luck of the draw' ; but her experience -and DVD record-
>don't quite tally with the experience of your 'pal'.
Probably the time has a lot to do with it as well (and the
expectations) there must be off-season there. But I've heard others
complain of overcrowding at Sharm's dive sites too.
Eugene L Griessel
Three things I always forget. Names, faces -- the third I can't remember.
Arved Sandstrom
> Vince <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote:
>
>>Eugene Griessel wrote:
>>> Dennis <tsalag...@asus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> By all accounts I've read, the Red Sea is a thoroughly miserably
>>>> place, both the climate and the people one encounters.
>>>
>>> It depends, I suppose - I enjoyed the place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Eugene L Griessel
>>>
>>> Nothing in the known universe travels faster than a bad cheque.
>>>
>>> - I usually post only from Sci.Military.Naval -
>>
>>some of the finest scuba
>>diving in the world
>
> Not anymore I'm told. Had a pal go to Sharm last year and he claimed
> all he saw were the bubbles from the other ten thousand divers on the
> same wreck at the same time. May have been overstating the numbers a
> tad but from some of the pics he showed me he wasn't too wrong on the
> bubbles.....
>
> Some of the pictures he showed had dozens, literally dozens, of dive
> boats all clustering around one wreck. Each with about 20 or so
> divers aboard.
Pussies. Dive off Nova Scotia in the spring on wrecks and you'll freeze your
nuts, for starters. After that you can contend with strong currents and
swirling silt - in general, not the greatest visibility. And you can say Hi
to your favourite mother moray eel, all 4 feet of her, that glares at you
when you approach her kids too close.
AHS
Richard Casady
<asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote:
>Pussies. Dive off Nova Scotia in the spring on wrecks and you'll freeze your
>nuts, for starters. After that you can contend with strong currents and
>swirling silt - in general, not the greatest visibility. And you can say Hi
>to your favourite mother moray eel, all 4 feet of her, that glares at you
>when you approach her kids too close.
The Andrea Doria didn't make it that far. At this point, more people,
sixty or so, have died diving the wreck than died when it sank. I
don't know about the eels, or freezing, but isn't it real cold
everywhere, once you get a couple of hundred feet down? The Doria is
liberally festooned with fishing tackle to entangle a diver, but no
more so than the NS wrecks, I am sure. Scuba is like flying light
airplanes, it can get dangerous fast if you make a mistake, or two.
Casady
Dennis
> Pussies. Dive off Nova Scotia in the spring on wrecks and you'll
> freeze your nuts, for starters. After that you can contend with strong
> currents and swirling silt - in general, not the greatest visibility.
> And you can say Hi to your favourite mother moray eel, all 4 feet of
> her, that glares at you when you approach her kids too close.
Wow! Did you see the recent discovery that moray eels have *two*
jets of jaws, one inside the other, like Alien?
Dennis
Vince
if you go on a live aboard and there are thousands of other divers
you did get ripped off.
Vince