NATO Won't Let Russia Succeed In Georgia: Rice
D. Spencer Hines
But Pogue Gans WANTS Russia to succeed in Georgia -- just so he can say "I
told you so" and make President Bush [and Rice too] look bad.
Gans WANTS the United States to look weak, feckless and impotent on the
World Stage -- just so he can Blame It On Bush.
Just as Gans says we have lost in Iraq and should pull out immediately, he
doesn't want to WIN in Georgia either -- because that would make him look
foolish, pig-ignorant, wimpy-wussy and redound to Bush's and Rice's credit.
SO, Gans...
Blames America First.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
-------------------------------------------------
NATO won't let Russia succeed in Georgia: Rice
Aug 18, 2008
By MATTHEW LEE
Associated Press Writer
BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday
that Russia is playing a "very dangerous game" with the U.S. and its allies
and warned that NATO would not allow Moscow to win in Georgia, destabilize
Europe or draw a new Iron Curtain through it.
On her way to an emergency NATO foreign ministers meeting on the crisis,
Rice said the alliance would punish Russia for its invasion of Georgia and
deny its ambitions by rebuilding and fully backing Georgia and other Eastern
European democracies.
"We have to deny Russian strategic objectives, which are clearly to
undermine Georgia's democracy, to use its military capability to damage and
in some cases destroy Georgian infrastructure and to try and weaken the
Georgian state," she said.
"We are determined to deny them their strategic objective," Rice told
reporters aboard her plane, adding that any attempt to recreate the Cold War
by drawing a "new line" through Europe and intimidating former Soviet
republics and ex-satellite states into submission would fail.
"We are not going to allow Russia to draw a new line at those states that
are not yet integrated into the trans-Atlantic structures," she said,
referring to Georgia and Ukraine, which have not yet joined NATO or the
European Union but would like to.
Rice could not say what NATO would eventually decide to do to make its
position clear but said the alliance would speak with one voice "to clearly
indicate that we are not accepting a new line."
At the same time, she said that by flexing its military muscle in Georgia as
well as elsewhere, including the resumption of Cold War-era strategic bomber
patrols off the coast of Alaska, Russia was engaged in high-stakes
brinksmanship that could backfire.
This "is a very dangerous game and perhaps one the Russians want to
reconsider," Rice said of the flights that began again with frequency about
six months ago. "This is not something that is just cost-free. Nobody needs
Russian strategic aviation along America's coast."
At Tuesday's meeting, the NATO ministers will consider a range of upcoming
activities planned with Russia-from military exercises to ministerial
meetings-and decide case-by-case at the meeting Tuesday whether to go ahead
or cancel each.
They will also discuss support for a planned international monitoring
mission in the region and a package of support to help Georgia rebuild
infrastructure damaged in its devastating defeat at the hands of the Russian
armed forces.
And, she suggested that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who signed an
E.U.-backed cease-fire brokered by the French, may be unable to exert power
behind the scenes against his powerful predecessor, Prime Minister Vladimir
Putin, or the Russian military.
YES, THAT IS A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY. -- DSH
She said she thought the French would be seeking "an explanation from the
Russians for why the Russian president either won't or can't keep his word."
"It didn't take that long for the Russian forces to get in and it really
shouldn't take that long for them to get out," Rice said.
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commander,
I don't see the advantage in telling the Russians what we or NATO are
going to do. First thing. We are talking about the Russian border.
Now
I know there are nitwits who say, "It's not the Russian border. It's
South Ossetia." Or "Dagistan", or "Trans-Dniestria", or "Chechnya."
But the Russian border is largely ethnic enclaves scattered across 12
time zones.
How much slack would we give Russia, if Putin started making
statements
about the U.S. border ? Nothing, nada. Yet here we are, trillions of
dollars
in debt, stretching our Army to the breaking point halfway around the
globe,
sending $700 billion abroad for 70% of our domestic energy, facing a
bottomless market slump, still not secure on the southern US border,
and
now we are facing off with the Russians on their on border.
And we are doing this with an administration that is managerially
bankrupt,
economically insolvent, spending the country into an inflationary
spiral,
and totally incapable of policing the world. This is indeed the
perfect storm.
And also the perfect opportunity to sit back and let the Russians show
the
world their best 5 cards. In the days ahead Russia under Vlad Putin
may
shoot itself in the foot so badly that even the Chinese will have to
reconsider
their own border with Russia.
As Dwight David Eisenhower once told John Foster Dulles, "for goodness
sake, John, don't do something!"
Cheers, David H.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
Actually, it seems to have become the Russian border.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/world/europe/20georgia.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
August 20, 2008
Russia Builds Checkpoints in Georgia
By C.J. CHIVERS and ANDREW E. KRAMER
KARALETI, Georgia — Russian troops were building new checkpoints a few
miles north of the key Georgian city of Gori on Tuesday, using
backhoes to cut deep trenches at the edge of the town of Karaleti and
using cranes to stack concrete blocks into barricades. The Kremlin
claimed a day earlier to have begun withdrawing troops from Georgia,
but there has been little evidence of change on the ground.
Also Tuesday, Russian soldiers in the Black Sea port of Poti in armed
personnel carriers blockaded the main commercial port, and took
Georgian soldiers prisoner. An explosion could be heard from the port,
where Russian troops sank Georgian ships earlier this week. An
Associated Press report said 22 Georgians were being held.
The situation was tense, with a ring of Georgian police officers
surrounding the Russian-held port. Russian forces have patrolled the
area regularly since entering Georgia from the west 10 days ago. U.S.
Navy ships are scheduled to deliver humanitarian aid for Georgia at
the port.
In Moscow, a high-ranking security official said Tuesday that he had
received intelligence about Georgian-planned terrorist attacks on
Russian soil. The Federal Security Service chief, Alexander Bortnikov,
said he had ordered tightened security at transportation hubs,
industrial facilities and densely populated areas in Russia’s
southernmost district, whose border stretches from Ukraine, through
Georgia and as far as Kazakhstan, Interfax reported.
A day earlier, Russian soldiers continued digging in to positions
along the highway approaching the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, showing
no sign of pulling back from the severest confrontation between Russia
and the West since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The checkpoints in Karaleti, seen by a New York Times reporter
Tuesday, seemed to mesh with information the Russians released a day
earlier, which clarified the scope of their proposed withdrawal. A
1999 document written up by the Joint Control Commission, an
international body that monitored tensions in South Ossetia, gives
peacekeepers access to a long swath of land that extends about nine
miles into Georgian territory, and right through Karaleti.
The Russian president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, has said Russian
peacekeepers would pull back from other Georgian territory but remain
inside that area.
Russia’s state news agency, the Russian Information Agency, reported
Monday that one of its correspondents had seen small convoys of 5 to
10 tanks moving north through the Roki tunnel toward Russia.
But in Washington, Defense Department and military officials said
there was no evidence of Russian forces’ complying with pledges to
pull back. “We have not seen any significant Russian movement out of
Georgia today,” one senior Pentagon official said Monday.
On the ground in Georgia, about 25 miles outside the capital along the
main highway, four Russian armored personnel carriers passed a Russian
checkpoint at the village of Igoeti on Monday and headed in the other
direction, toward Tbilisi. Soldiers were piled on top, cradling
Kalashnikov rifles.
<more>
Vincent
> Brava Condoleezza!
>
> But Pogue Gans WANTS Russia to succeed in Georgia -- just so he can say "I
> told you so" and make President Bush [and Rice too] look bad.
>
> Gans WANTS the United States to look weak, feckless and impotent on the
> World Stage -- just so he can Blame It On Bush.
>
> Just as Gans says we have lost in Iraq and should pull out immediately, he
> doesn't want to WIN in Georgia either -- because that would make him look
> foolish, pig-ignorant, wimpy-wussy and redound to Bush's and Rice's credit.
>
> SO, Gans...
>
> Blames America First.
There he goes again, blaming the little boy for the naked emperor
4000 dead in Iraq and we still can't scrape the tar baby off
A shambles in Georgia due to pure Bush/Rice idiocy
An overwhelming budget deficit
As long as Bush and his crowd are in charge the USA will look exactly
like what it is. A Stumblebum superpower with an idiot at the helm.
No wonder McCain talks about the mess in Washington and is terrified
that Bush will stand next to him for a photo op
All of your personal insults and abuse cannot conceal the repeated
failures of American policy
That is why you always snip content and throw out some abuse
Because you have nothing to add
If you respond with another of your shit balls The world will understand
that you have no response other than abuse
Vince
La N
"Vincent" <fir...@firelaw.us> wrote in message
news:8Jzqk.269$UX.256@trnddc03...
I think most of the world already knows Hines is full of sh*te. I think
even Bush would tell Hines to STFU and stop proclaiming himself as a one of
his supporters.
- nilita
Hiccum Blurpaedius
>
> - Show quoted text -
US policy is bad, has been bad and is crooked.
The lies are only beginnning to catch up. Enron and WorldCom were only
the beginning.
The economy is based on football statistics of how to gamble on who is
the most corrupt and who is most likely to get caught.
With the removal of the prayer of allegiance children will begin to be
honest with themselves and see through the lies their parents have
been shoving down their throats.
When religion is separated from the state will free thinking be able
to evolve.
am...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> August 20, 2008
> Russia Builds Checkpoints in Georgia
> By C.J. CHIVERS and ANDREW E. KRAMER
Very interesting article.
Not that I have any excessive sympathy to the current 'bad
boys' (category in which everybody who by whatever reason displeases
us falls automatically) but our rhetoric and what passes for disclosed
'motivations' are, IMO, really inept and not to the point:
1. "Disproportional force" - term was being used and abused to a total
absurdity. Israelies are routinely using 'd.f.', now the Russians are
doing the same and so did Milosovich. However, we did NOT use it in
Iraq or Afghanistan. A naive question (explanations are gladly
accepted), sinse when military issues are suppossed to be solved by
'proportional force' and who is going to define what is proportional
in any specific case (I thought, naively) that the whole point in
having strong military is an ability to crush your opponent with a
bigger force than he has (God being, according to Nappy, on a side of
the big batallions) and that 'proportional' thingies mostly belong to
the Hollywood production.
2. "Democratically elected" - Saakashvili WAS democratically elected.
The same can be said about Putin, Medvedev and The Bad Guy Milosovitch
(none of these elections was, AFAIK, totally perfect). In the case of
Milosovitch, we had ...er... 'regime change' as one of our stated
goals. So why such a big surprise when the Russians are saying the
same thing about Saakashvili? This does not necessarily mean that what
they are saying is nice, good, <whatever> but what's the difference?
3. "Pro-Western" does not automatically mean anything besides the fact
that <whoever> wants to get our money. IIRC, Saakashvili's practices
raised enough questions among the europeans to be an obstacle on
Georgia's way to NATO (why did we push for it to start with?).
4. Big Party bullying a smaller one, well the fun started when the
medium-sized bully tried to intimidate a smaller one. Only after this
happened, the bigger bully attacked a medium-sized one. The same thing
goes for humanitarian side of the crisis (which is unquestionably
tragic). Where were 'pro-western' values when Saakashvili ordered
massive artillery barrage of Tshinvali? BTW, which general promised to
'bomb <enter you less prefered country> into a Stone Age?'
5. Solving issues by military force is unacceptable in XXI century?
Are both Bush and Rice on drugs? We are still solving issues by
military force in Iraq and Afghanistan. OK, this does not mean that
these actions are necessary bad or wrong but does this mean that we
(US) are not in XXI century by Bush's own standards?
6. As for the territorial integrity of <whatever>, unfortunately after
acknowledging independence of Kosovo in a direct violation of UN's
rules, we are not exactly in a position to tell others that they can't
do the same.
It is anything but clear what are the Russian goals and what will be
the end of all this brouhaha (hopefully, not scenario of August, 1914)
but it is difficult to see how our one-sided involvement may help to
mediate the issue. The worst thing is that our administration keeps
trying to find a simplistic answer to extremely complicated situation.
Either they are just trying to save the face or sincerely don't
understand direct consequences of what they were and are doing? Both
cases are scary enough.
[]
Justin Case
<am...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b99d308c-fc77-4721...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Very interesting article.
Problem is that NATO has no auhority to intervene. There are no NATO
counntires being attacked.
[]
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to return to the sage Linthicum post.
Jack,
I still say that Bush has done more than any political figure post
1990 to
resurrect the Cold War. The planting of missiles in Czechoslovakia
and
Poland is a deliberate slap in the face and insult to a struggling
Russia
which is already nervous about thousands of kilometers of border with
China.
Vlad Putin's message in Georgia is clear: Georgia is not to join
NATO.
He is going to continue pushing APC's and tanks around South Ossetia
frontiers until this message gets across. The Russians are drawing
the line
at Georgia. If the West moves to include Georgia in its "security"
agenda,
I can guarantee you that there will be no operating oil pipeline
between the
Caspian and the Med via Georgia. It will never happen.
This is really a good time to leave Russia alone and for the Neocons
to focus
on this incredible mess they have made in the New World and elsewhere.
I will throw this in for good measure. Trust me, Georgia is worthless
as an
ally. They are a nation of bullies and cowards. I know from Soviet
times the
KGB fingered their Georgian counterpart as brutish, loutish, and
completely
unrefined. From my own experience I know the Georgian security police
to be
ignorant jerks. That the Neocons have an affinity for these people is
because
the Georgia shoe fits them too and they want to wear it.
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
To give you a small idea of what Putin has to work with look at this
map and realize the white spaces are more and more little
nationalities until you reach the level of the single living member of
a once great people
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/ethnocaucasus.jpg
Benjamin
standing, in Georgia. While Russia in the past several years removed
statutes of Stalin and Lenin, Georgia still admires Stalin and
maintain Stalin statutes in many locations.
So much for U.S. propaganda about the "democratic" Stalinist Georgia.
May be the Russians are right about the current Georgian leader.
For the past several years, the U.S. and Israel reserved the right to
invade, attack, bomb, and threaten other nations: Haiti, Iraq,
Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria, and Pakistan. They set the bad bully
examples for Russia and China to follow. The Chinese intimidated
Vietnam and cracked down Tibetans. And now the Russians follows the
footstep of U.S., Israel, and China. What goes around comes around.
The genie is out of the bottle, this a bad Karma that cannot be
reversed.
If the U.S. take actions to stop Russia in Georgia, Russia can
retaliate and take actions to stop the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan,
Iran, and Pakistan. Like the Vietnam war, all the Russians need is to
send sophisticated weapons to help militia groups in these nations. If
the U.S. could not even stop the success of a rag tag army of North
Vietnam, how could it stop the Russians?
Jack Linthicum
Bigger bombs bigger targets
So now we have hereditary guilt? There are people in Missouri who
think Jesse James was a good guy, same with Pretty Boy Floyd. Depends
on who wrote the book.
am...@hotmail.com
> <a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Indeed. However, extending NATO membership to the countries like
Georgia, with known (sinse early 1990's) problems, may lead to a whole
number of the scary scenarios.
am...@hotmail.com
> > <a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
To give credit where it is due, don't forget Billy the Great. His
little Kosovo adventure, including 'reward' that the Russians received
for their help, was a masterstroke in the terms of 'opposite to
improving' relations.
>
> Vlad Putin's message in Georgia is clear: Georgia is not to join
> NATO.
So far our message was somewhat peculiar: "We'll actively support any
anti-Russian regime while keep telling the Russians that they are our
strategic allies."
> He is going to continue pushing APC's and tanks around South Ossetia
> frontiers until this message gets across.
Judging by the recent news, they are laready placing short-range
missiles into South Osetia to have big chunk of Georgia 'covered'.
Well, after Saakashvili's little escapade, this is to be expected.
am...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is a slight but (hopefully) clear difference between Jesse James
and Stalin so your comparison is not very convincing. I strongly
suspect that there would be rather nasty comments if somebody tried to
erect Hitler's statue in Germany or Austria.
Benjamin
standing in Georgia. While Russia in the past several years removed
all
statutes of Stalin and Lenin, Georgia still admires Stalin and
maintain Stalin statutes in many locations.
So much for U.S. propaganda about the "democratic" Stalinist Georgia.
May be the Russians are right about the current Georgian leader.
For the past several years, the U.S. and Israel reserved the right to
Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria, and Pakistan. They set the bad bully
examples for Russia and China to follow. The Chinese intimidated
follow the
commonly accepted practice set by U.S., Israel, and China. What goes
around comes around.
The genie is out of the bottle, invasion is a bad Karma that cannot be
reversed.
If the U.S. take actions to stop Russia in Georgia, Russia can
retaliate and take actions to stop the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan,
Iran, and Pakistan. Like the Vietnam war, all the Russians need is to
send sophisticated weapons to help militia groups in these nations. If
the U.S. could not even stop the success of a rag tag army of North
Vietnam, how could it stop the Russians?
invaded. This should include troops from U.S., Israel, Russia, China,
UK, and France. Until the U.S. troops get out of the invaded nations
in the Middle East, it cannot tell the world that the U.S. and Israel
can invade other nations at own discretion but the others are not
allowed.
On Aug 19, 2:30 am, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Jack Linthicum
Don't count on it. I presume when Stalin shot someone in the back it
was political reasons and not for personal amusement.
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Linthicum defends Stalin, as do most Loony-Left cut and runners who
are sympathetic to Communism.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5d1217e8-f27b-4325-9e6d-
1f327b...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Jack Linthicum
> Par for the course...
>
> Pogue Linthicum defends Stalin, as do most Loony-Left cut and runners who
> are sympathetic to Communism.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
> Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
>
>
> news:5d1217e8-f27b-4325-9e6d-
> 1f327bf63...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> There is a slight but (hopefully) clear difference between Jesse James
> >> and Stalin so your comparison is not very convincing. I strongly
> >> suspect that there would be rather nasty comments if somebody tried to
> >> erect Hitler's statue in Germany or Austria.
>
> > Don't count on it. I presume when Stalin shot someone in the back it
> > was political reasons and not for personal amusement.
No, you dim-witted Kentucky rube, I was dissing Brother James. My
family spent some time in a town in northern Missouri called
Jamesport. They had at least second hand acquaintance with the family.
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Linthicum defends Stalin, as do most Loony-Left cut and runners who
are sympathetic to Communism.
He denies it, but the clear import of his words is that Stalin was a better
fellow than Jesse James...
OR -- perhaps Pogue Linthicum just thinks and writes clumsily.
Writing is thinking with words -- and Pogue Linthicum clearly has trouble
with both thinking and writing.
If the thinking is muddled the writing will be muddled too.
He's the poster boy for that truism.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5d1217e8-f27b-4325...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Jack Linthicum
> Par for the course...
>
> Pogue Linthicum defends Stalin, as do most Loony-Left cut and runners who
> are sympathetic to Communism.
>
> He denies it, but the clear import of his words is that Stalin was a better
> fellow than Jesse James...
>
> OR -- perhaps Pogue Linthicum just thinks and writes clumsily.
>
> Writing is thinking with words -- and Pogue Linthicum clearly has trouble
> with both thinking and writing.
>
> If the thinking is muddled the writing will be muddled too.
>
> He's the poster boy for that truism.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
> Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
>
>
> news:5d1217e8-f27b-4325...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> There is a slight but (hopefully) clear difference between Jesse James
> >> and Stalin so your comparison is not very convincing. I strongly
> >> suspect that there would be rather nasty comments if somebody tried to
> >> erect Hitler's statue in Germany or Austria.
>
> > Don't count on it. I presume when Stalin shot someone in the back it
> > was political reasons and not for personal amusement.
and Hines can't even figure out what he is responding to. Another
example of excess alcohol, at 7 am, or dementia.
am...@hotmail.com
Don't count on what exactly?
>I presume when Stalin shot someone in the back it
> was political reasons and not for personal amusement.
Am I right in my assumption that based on this principle Uncle Joe
should qualify as a nice guy? Anyway, what you wrote does qualify as a
difference. :-)
John Kane
> standing, in Georgia. While Russia in the past several years removed
> statutes of Stalin and Lenin, Georgia still admires Stalin and
> maintain Stalin statutes in many locations.
La N
"Singanas@Texasgulfcoast" <davidh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b7ca95d2-54fc-41b0...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
I don't know how much cred Gorbachev has anymore, but in his op-ed piece of
today in the NY Times he insists that Russia never wanted a war:
August 20, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
Russia Never Wanted a War
By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV
Moscow
THE acute phase of the crisis provoked by the Georgian forces' assault on
Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, is now behind us. But how can one
erase from memory the horrifying scenes of the nighttime rocket attack on a
peaceful town, the razing of entire city blocks, the deaths of people taking
cover in basements, the destruction of ancient monuments and ancestral
graves?
Russia did not want this crisis. The Russian leadership is in a strong
enough position domestically; it did not need a little victorious war.
Russia was dragged into the fray by the recklessness of the Georgian
president, Mikheil Saakashvili. He would not have dared to attack without
outside support. Once he did, Russia could not afford inaction.
The decision by the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, to now cease
hostilities was the right move by a responsible leader. The Russian
president acted calmly, confidently and firmly. Anyone who expected
confusion in Moscow was disappointed.
The planners of this campaign clearly wanted to make sure that, whatever the
outcome, Russia would be blamed for worsening the situation. The West then
mounted a propaganda attack against Russia, with the American news media
leading the way.
The news coverage has been far from fair and balanced, especially during the
first days of the crisis. Tskhinvali was in smoking ruins and thousands of
people were fleeing - before any Russian troops arrived. Yet Russia was
already being accused of aggression; news reports were often an embarrassing
recitation of the Georgian leader's deceptive statements.
It is still not quite clear whether the West was aware of Mr. Saakashvili's
plans to invade South Ossetia, and this is a serious matter. What is clear
is that Western assistance in training Georgian troops and shipping large
supplies of arms had been pushing the region toward war rather than peace.
If this military misadventure was a surprise for the Georgian leader's
foreign patrons, so much the worse. It looks like a classic wag-the-dog
story.
Mr. Saakashvili had been lavished with praise for being a staunch American
ally and a real democrat - and for helping out in Iraq. Now America's friend
has wrought disorder, and all of us - the Europeans and, most important, the
region's innocent civilians - must pick up the pieces.
Those who rush to judgment on what's happening in the Caucasus, or those who
seek influence there, should first have at least some idea of this region's
complexities. The Ossetians live both in Georgia and in Russia. The region
is a patchwork of ethnic groups living in close proximity. Therefore, all
talk of "this is our land," "we are liberating our land," is meaningless. We
must think about the people who live on the land.
The problems of the Caucasus region cannot be solved by force. That has been
tried more than once in the past two decades, and it has always boomeranged.
What is needed is a legally binding agreement not to use force. Mr.
Saakashvili has repeatedly refused to sign such an agreement, for reasons
that have now become abundantly clear.
The West would be wise to help achieve such an agreement now. If, instead,
it chooses to blame Russia and re-arm Georgia, as American officials are
suggesting, a new crisis will be inevitable. In that case, expect the worst.
In recent days, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President Bush have
been promising to isolate Russia. Some American politicians have threatened
to expel it from the Group of 8 industrialized nations, to abolish the
NATO-Russia Council and to keep Russia out of the World Trade Organization.
These are empty threats. For some time now, Russians have been wondering: If
our opinion counts for nothing in those institutions, do we really need
them? Just to sit at the nicely set dinner table and listen to lectures?
Indeed, Russia has long been told to simply accept the facts. Here's the
independence of Kosovo for you. Here's the abrogation of the Antiballistic
Missile Treaty, and the American decision to place missile defenses in
neighboring countries. Here's the unending expansion of NATO. All of these
moves have been set against the backdrop of sweet talk about partnership.
Why would anyone put up with such a charade?
There is much talk now in the United States about rethinking relations with
Russia. One thing that should definitely be rethought: the habit of talking
to Russia in a condescending way, without regard for its positions and
interests.
Our two countries could develop a serious agenda for genuine, rather than
token, cooperation. Many Americans, as well as Russians, understand the need
for this. But is the same true of the political leaders?
A bipartisan commission led by Senator Chuck Hagel and former Senator Gary
Hart has recently been established at Harvard to report on American-Russian
relations to Congress and the next president. It includes serious people,
and, judging by the commission's early statements, its members understand
the importance of Russia and the importance of constructive bilateral
relations.
But the members of this commission should be careful. Their mandate is to
present "policy recommendations for a new administration to advance
America's
national interests in relations with Russia." If that alone is the goal,
then I doubt that much good will come out of it. If, however, the commission
is ready to also consider the interests of the other side and of common
security, it may actually help rebuild trust between Russia and the United
States and allow them to start doing useful work together.
Mikhail Gorbachev is the former president of the Soviet Union. This article
was translated by Pavel Palazhchenko from the Russian.
Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company
D. Spencer Hines
Opinion.
Putin has even modified Lenin's dictum of two steps forward and one step
back to THREE steps forward and MAYBE one step back -- much later.
The Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine Medvedev and Putin have been playing is also
amusing -- as it sucks in the gullible and the credulous.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"Matt Osborn" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:e3npa4dupqs4aqto2...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:08:22 GMT, "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>I don't know how much cred Gorbachev has anymore, but in his op-ed piece
>>of today in the NY Times he insists that Russia never wanted a war:
>
> It's difficult to imagine that 1200 tanks and 15,000 troops were able
> to roll into Georgia without months of preparations.
dapra
> And carefully timed to occur while the Olympics were distracting World
> Opinion.
>
> Putin has even modified Lenin's dictum of two steps forward and one step
> back to THREE steps forward and MAYBE one step back -- much later.
>
> The Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine Medvedev and Putin have been playing is also
> amusing -- as it sucks in the gullible and the credulous.
>
The timing, the opening night of the Olympics, the attack on South
Ossetia was chosen by the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili. Of
course the neocons start the clock when the Russians hit back. What
happened before went down in their memory black hole.
What is amazing how much the neocons defend Stalin's divisions of the
Soviet Republics. They were obviously put together with the "divide and
rule" in mind. We might see Stalin elevated to 'sainthood' in Republican
circles similar to Reagan's position.
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dapra,
There is more to the Neocon agenda than driving a wedge between
Europe and Russia. We forget that Bush is brilliant at winning
elections
and steering the Congress and the masses into wars against foreign
demons. We forget this is an election year. Somehow, probably at the
behest of GOP hardliners, Bush's current Russia baiting jingoism is
going
to translate into votes for McCain who is also a hawk and hardliner.
Senator McCain gains votes every day by continuously pushing war
against radical Islam. Bush and Rice are raising the war fever by
re-packaging the Cold War and selling it to Europe. IMHO, Obama is
now going to have to move to the right. He doesn't have to, but his VP
nominee has to move right and start baiting Bush and the Neocons.
The best Bush baiter and attack dog today is Hilary.
Obama may end up needing Hilary in order to win this contest with the
old order.
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>And carefully timed to occur while the Olympics were distracting World
>Opinion.
Yes, Putin must be extremely grateful to Saakashvili for his
timing of the attack on Tskhinvali.
By the way, here's an interesting quotation from Putin, the man
Hines describes as a communist:
"a private company, which is motivated by the results, is often
better at management than a civil servant, who does not always
have even a perception of what efficient management amounts to or
what a result is."
If he's a communist, then so is John McCain.
James
John Briggs
The division pre-dates Stalin.
--
John Briggs
James Hogg
But the boundaries of today's Georgia are those exactly created
by Stalin in 1936 when the Transcaucasian SFSR was divided into
three SSRs: Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia (including Abkhazia
and South Ossetia, which were not given the status of SSR).
Before that, when Georgia was first swallowed by the USSR in
1922, the Soviet government gave away bits of Georgia to Turkey
and other neighbours within the USSR.
But it's the territorial integrity of Stalin's Soviet Republic
that the west is now seeking to maintain. Some supporters of this
doctrine even use the Russian name for the country, Gruzia. Do
you suppose they could be Communists?
James
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
>
> > > Brava Condoleezza!
>
> > > But Pogue Gans WANTS Russia to succeed in Georgia -- just so he can say "I
> > > told you so" and make President Bush [and Rice too] look bad.
>
> > > Gans WANTS the United States to look weak, feckless and impotent on the
> > > World Stage -- just so he can Blame It On Bush.
>
> > > Just as Gans says we have lost in Iraq and should pull out immediately, he
> > > doesn't want to WIN in Georgia either -- because that would make him look
> > > foolish, pig-ignorant, wimpy-wussy and redound to Bush's and Rice's credit.
>
> > > SO, Gans...
>
> > > Blames America First.
> > > DSH
> > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> > > Vires et Honor
> > > Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/world/europe/20georgia.html?_r=1&hp...
>
> August 20, 2008
> Russia Builds Checkpoints in Georgia
> By C.J. CHIVERS and ANDREW E. KRAMER
>
> miles north of the key Georgian city of Gori on Tuesday, using
> backhoes to cut deep trenches at the edge of the town of Karaleti and
> using cranes to stack concrete blocks into barricades. The Kremlin
> claimed a day earlier to have begun withdrawing troops from Georgia,
> but there has been little evidence of change on the ground.
>
> Also Tuesday, Russian soldiers in the Black Sea port of Poti in armed
> personnel carriers blockaded the main commercial port, and took
> Georgian soldiers prisoner. An explosion could be heard from the port,
> where Russian troops sank Georgian ships earlier this week. An
> Associated Press report said 22 Georgians were being held.
>
> The situation was tense, with a ring of Georgian police officers
> surrounding the Russian-held port. Russian forces have patrolled the
> area regularly since entering Georgia from the west 10 days ago. U.S.
> Navy ships are scheduled to deliver humanitarian aid for Georgia at
> the port.
>
> In Moscow, a high-ranking security official said Tuesday that he had
> received intelligence about Georgian-planned terrorist attacks on
> Russian soil. The Federal Security Service chief, Alexander Bortnikov,
> said he had ordered tightened security at transportation hubs,
> industrial facilities and densely populated areas in Russia’s
> southernmost district, whose border stretches from Ukraine, through
> Georgia and as far as Kazakhstan, Interfax reported.
>
> A day earlier, Russian soldiers continued digging in to positions
> along the highway approaching the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, showing
> no sign of pulling back from the severest confrontation between Russia
> and the West since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
>
> The checkpoints in Karaleti, seen by a New York Times reporter
> Tuesday, seemed to mesh with information the Russians released a day
> earlier, which clarified the scope of their proposed withdrawal. A
> 1999 document written up by the Joint Control Commission, an
> international body that monitored tensions in South Ossetia, gives
> peacekeepers access to a long swath of land that extends about nine
> miles into Georgian territory, and right through Karaleti.
>
> The Russian president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, has said Russian
> peacekeepers would pull back from other Georgian territory but remain
> inside that area.
>
> Russia’s state news agency, the Russian Information Agency, reported
> Monday that one of its correspondents had seen small convoys of 5 to
> 10 tanks moving north through the Roki tunnel toward Russia.
>
> But in Washington, Defense Department and military officials said
> there was no evidence of Russian forces’ complying with pledges to
> pull back. “We have not seen any significant Russian movement out of
> Georgia today,” one senior Pentagon official said Monday.
>
> On the ground in Georgia, about 25 miles outside the capital along the
> main highway, four Russian armored personnel carriers passed a Russian
> checkpoint at the village of Igoeti on Monday and headed in the other
> direction, toward Tbilisi. Soldiers were piled on top, cradling
> Kalashnikov rifles.
>
> <more>
One important clue as to the problem lies in the badges on the forces
occupying Georgia: “Peacemaking Forces of the Georgia-Ossetia
Conflict Zone.”
John Briggs
But the boundary between Georgia and Russia was established in about 1918 -
dividing Ossetia in the process.
--
John Briggs
D. Spencer Hines
practiced by Putin...
Hitler did the same in the 1930's.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:5hErk.61129$6s4....@newsfe14.ams2...
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:02:18 +0100, "John Briggs"
>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> dapra wrote:
>>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And carefully timed to occur while the Olympics were distracting
>>>>> World Opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin has even modified Lenin's dictum of two steps forward and one
>>>>> step back to THREE steps forward and MAYBE one step back -- much
>>>>> later.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine Medvedev and Putin have been playing
>>>>> is also amusing -- as it sucks in the gullible and the credulous.
>>>> What is amazing how much the neocons defend Stalin's divisions of
John Briggs
> What we are seeing here are classic Soviet-style Salami Tactics, now
> practiced by Putin...
>
> Hitler did the same in the 1930's.
Listen, you troll - your post has no relevance to what I wrote.
--
John Briggs
D. Spencer Hines
practiced by Putin...
There was, of course, no Soviet Union in 1918.
Hitler used the same Salami Tactics in the 1930's...
Leading directly to World War II.
John Briggs
>
> There was, of course, no Soviet Union in 1918.
Of course not - I never said otherwise. But the boundary (incorporating
South Ossetia and Abkhazia into Georgia) was established by the Democratic
Republic of Georgia. They were Mensheviks!
--
John Briggs
James Hogg
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>What we are seeing here are classic Soviet-style Salami Tactics, now
>practiced by Putin...
>
>There was, of course, no Soviet Union in 1918.
Another classic non sequitur deposited in these newsgroups, and
guess who the deponent was? The master of the genre himself.
Cutting away the post to which you are replying does not disguise
the fact that you can't keep track of an argument. No wonder you
prefer talking to yourself.
James
La N
"James Hogg" <Jas.H...@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef9ua4lti3t1vi5oo...@4ax.com...
In a Julia/Hines Victor/Victoria kind of way, I would imagine ...
- nilita
D. Spencer Hines
No Soviet-style Salami Tactics as practiced by the communist and former KGB
officer, Vladimir Putin, should be allowed to prevail
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:nFFrk.1134$_M4...@newsfe18.ams2...
What we are seeing here are classic Soviet-style Salami Tactics, now
practiced by Putin...
There was, of course, no Soviet Union in 1918.
Hitler used the same Salami Tactics in the 1930's...
Leading directly to World War II.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:5hErk.61129$6s4....@newsfe14.ams2...
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:02:18 +0100, "John Briggs"
>> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>> dapra wrote:
>>>> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And carefully timed to occur while the Olympics were distracting
>>>>> World Opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Putin has even modified Lenin's dictum of two steps forward and one
>>>>> step back to THREE steps forward and MAYBE one step back -- much
>>>>> later.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine Medvedev and Putin have been playing
>>>>> is also amusing -- as it sucks in the gullible and the credulous.
>> But the boundaries of today's Georgia are those exactly created
>> by Stalin in 1936 when the Transcaucasian SFSR was divided into
>> three SSRs: Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia (including Abkhazia
>> and South Ossetia, which were not given the status of SSR).
>>
>> Before that, when Georgia was first swallowed by the USSR in
>> 1922, the Soviet government gave away bits of Georgia to Turkey
>> and other neighbours within the USSR.
>>
Billzz
Just a quick note. As a student at the National War College I learned about
the Soviet (now Russian) "Sphere of Influence" and we even heard W. Averell
Harriman in one of his last lectures. He started by saying, "You can always
trust the Soviets. You can always trust the Soviets to do exactly what is
in their best interests." And then he repeated himself three times. Prior
to that I had three college courses, and later the seminar at the NWC.
Anyway, the solidification of the USSR and satellites was born out of the
fact that *Old Russia* was being attacked by everyone from Napoleon and
Hitler (and even a US brigade - which they have never forgotten) which
resulted in the USSR being very defensive and very jealous of every inch of
territory. NATO policies were helpful to them, in that the NATO policy was
to only re-establish the existing borders (and they have a very nice Latin
phrase, something about ante-bellum, and what she is doing here I do not
know - but I digress.) Anyway, again, stability was achieved through
non-intervention in any of the Soviet "Sphere of Influence."
Now come the breakup of the USSR, and for some reason someone, somewhere,
thought that the new Russia, releasing the satellites to their own autonomy,
had given up on the old Soviet, now Russian "Sphere of Influence." I think
that what is happening displays the obvious difference between the way the
west looks at the world and the way that the Russians look at the world.
The west thinks that nations are free to make alliances. The Russians think
that their old satellites are still within their "Sphere of Influence." In
other words, in the Russan mind, they are free, but not so free as to join
NATO. Not so free as to turn on Russia.
And the bottom line is that any intervention by the west, in any form - like
in Georgia - will be met with full reprisals for all involved. Because the
Russians still believe that Georgia is within its "Sphere of Influence."
The other thing is that the Russians think that any movement of boundaries
is their sole province, and the west should have nothing to do with it - at
all - zero. "Sphere of Influence," "Sphere of Influence," "Sphere of
Influence."
La N
"Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:6ec6d$48af779e$9440b19b$20...@STARBAND.NET...
Well, now, this makes sense.
And, btw, a little trivia, the late W. Averill Harriman was married to one
of the last great courtesans, Pamela Digby Churchill Haywood Harriman, and
we are not counting her numerous romantic liaisons with the well-healed
inbetween. She ended up being a diplomat to France in Clinton's presidency
before she died. Interesting lady. I don't know that such a woman would
anymore be held in such esteem, what with the religious right, yellow
tabloid journalism, etc.
- nilita
John Briggs
> learned about the Soviet (now Russian) "Sphere of Influence" and we
> even heard W. Averell Harriman in one of his last lectures. He
> started by saying, "You can always trust the Soviets. You can always
> trust the Soviets to do exactly what is in their best interests." And then
> he repeated himself three times. Prior to that I had three
> college courses, and later the seminar at the NWC.
Actually, and we found this in the strategic weapons field, you *could*
trust the Soviets to abide by any treaty they had signed: SALT I, SALT II,
ABM Treaty, etc. They would stick to the letter of any agreement. Not the
spirit, of course, but always the letter.
--
John Briggs
D. Spencer Hines
Nilita Gay pines to have had a romantic career as a Great Courtesan like
Pamela Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman, our former Ambassador to France....
Nilita Gay didn't/doesn't have either the looks or the class to play that
role.
Of Note:
Pamela had the Good Sense, although born a Brit, to become an American
Citizen in 1971.
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JQKrk.9240$nu6.2521@edtnps83...
> And, btw, a little trivia, the late W. Averill Harriman was married to one
> of the last great courtesans, Pamela Digby Churchill Haywood [sic]
95 Thesen
> Hilarius Magnus Cum Laude!
>
> Nilita Gay pines to have had a romantic career as a Great Courtesan like
> Pamela Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman, our former Ambassador to France....
>
> Nilita Gay didn't/doesn't have either the looks or the class to play that
> role.
>
> Of Note:
>
> Pamela had the Good Sense, although born a Brit, to become an American
> Citizen in 1971.
> --
> DSH
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
> Vires et Honor
> Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
>
>
> news:JQKrk.9240$nu6.2521@edtnps83...
>
> > And, btw, a little trivia, the late W. Averill Harriman was married to one
> > of the last great courtesans, Pamela Digby Churchill Haywood [sic]
> > Harriman, and we are not counting her numerous romantic liaisons with the
> > well-healed inbetween. She ended up being a diplomat to France in
> > Clinton's presidency before she died. Interesting lady. I don't know
> > that such a woman would anymore be held in such esteem, what with the
> > religious right, yellow tabloid journalism, etc.
>
> > - nilita
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Commander, before you quarter another pineapple....
Nilita is not just another "aspiring courtesan." She had the
brains to introduce the Gorbachev defense of the Gruzia
adventurism in this thread. We can thank her for reading
the N.Y.Times.
As for Pamela Digby Churchill becoming an American, 95%
of the Brits who do this have the objective of avoiding the UK
tax code. As for Pamela becoming a diplomat to France during
the Clintonian Era, I would not be surprised if Sleazy Bill uploaded
that software before dispatching the package to France.
Briggs is wrong to say that you are a troll because I think you
did start this thread. And Hogg's inference that I am a comsymp
for using the real name of Georgia and not the bloddy anglocised name
is just more redcoat Hoggwash.
Cheers, Holiman SM2 (retired)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Hogg
<davidh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Briggs is wrong to say that you are a troll because I think you
>did start this thread. And Hogg's inference that I am a comsymp
>for using the real name of Georgia and not the bloddy anglocised name
>is just more redcoat Hoggwash.
You haven't once used the real name of Georgia. I have searched
your posts and those of all your sock puppets and fellow
travellers and have not found a single instance of Sakartvelo.
Here's a picture of some iconic ladies that will no doubt appeal
to closet commies like you and Hines:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1597513.ece
James
William Black
> Actually, and we found this in the strategic weapons field, you *could*
> trust the Soviets to abide by any treaty they had signed: SALT I, SALT II,
> ABM Treaty, etc. They would stick to the letter of any agreement. Not the
> spirit, of course, but always the letter.
So just the same as the USA then...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
William Black
"Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:6ec6d$48af779e$9440b19b$20...@STARBAND.NET...
> You can always trust the Soviets to do exactly what is in their best
> interests." And then he repeated himself three times.
You've got to be reasonably dense to have to be told this.
I find the USA invariably acts in a similar manner, as does every other
major power, with the possible exception of the UK which seems for some
reason to do stuff to make the US happy to no very good purpose.
For example, I have yet to work out why our Foreign Secretary, a man noted
for his intellectual ability, opened his mouth over Georgia. All it did
was make the US happy and make him look impotent...
D. Spencer Hines
Cheap Cynicism
--
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g8ovst$cfj$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
John Kane
> And the bottom line is that any intervention by the west, in any form - like
> in Georgia - will be met with full reprisals for all involved. Because the
> Russians still believe that Georgia is within its "Sphere of Influence."
> The other thing is that the Russians think that any movement of boundaries
> is their sole province, and the west should have nothing to do with it - at
> all - zero. "Sphere of Influence," "Sphere of Influence," "Sphere of
> Influence."-
One does have to wonder just how happy the USA would be if Guatamala
and Mexico joined a new Russian Mutual Defense Alliance with Russia
installing an anti-missle listening point plus a few Patriot missles
somewhere around Mexico City.
Givenwhat may be a reasonable level of paranoia among the Russian
politicos and high command the equivalent US moves in the Chezk
Republic and Poland are probably not all that popular.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada.
John Kane
wrote:
> "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:KUKrk.306912$7f3.1...@newsfe23.ams2...
>
> > Actually, and we found this in the strategic weapons field, you *could*
> > trust the Soviets to abide by any treaty they had signed: SALT I, SALT II,
> > ABM Treaty, etc. They would stick to the letter of any agreement. Not the
> > spirit, of course, but always the letter.
>
> So just the same as the USA then...
>
Well no, the USA repudiates the treaty.
John Briggs
> "Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote in message
> news:6ec6d$48af779e$9440b19b$20...@STARBAND.NET...
>
>> You can always trust the Soviets to do exactly what is in their best
>> interests." And then he repeated himself three times.
>
> You've got to be reasonably dense to have to be told this.
>
> I find the USA invariably acts in a similar manner, as does every
> other major power, with the possible exception of the UK which seems
> for some reason to do stuff to make the US happy to no very good
> purpose.
>
> For example, I have yet to work out why our Foreign Secretary, a
> man noted for his intellectual ability, opened his mouth over
> Georgia. All it did was make the US happy and make him look
> impotent...
And to whose political advantage would that be, then?
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:KUKrk.306912$7f3.1...@newsfe23.ams2...
>
>> Actually, and we found this in the strategic weapons field, you
>> *could* trust the Soviets to abide by any treaty they had signed:
>> SALT I, SALT II, ABM Treaty, etc. They would stick to the letter of
>> any agreement. Not the spirit, of course, but always the letter.
>
> So just the same as the USA then...
Well, no - the USA tend to be a bit careless about the letter.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Czech?
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
To be fair, they often claim to be abiding by the *spirit* of the treaty - a
concept which the Russians just don't have.
--
John Briggs
William Black
Which is the very odd point.
Today, nobody's...
I suppose there's the slight possibility that Milliband may be trying to
make himself look to the USA and so be acceptable as the UK Prime Minister
at some future date, but he's got an academic reputation there anyway and
shouldn't need to do it.
Billzz
Oh, I just noticed this. Apparently I have William Black in my plonk file
for some other gratuitous insult. Anyway, I was in the room when Ambassador
Harriman said those words - three times - so I just noted them. As to being
reasonably dense, I had Soviet Studies as a minor, another course at the
National War College and was the US rep. to the ABCA Treaty organization,
and the same people were on the NATO working group. My signature, amongst
others, was on the US Army General Defense Plan for Europe, and I was on the
planning staff for CENTAG, so I was probably one of the more informed people
on the Soviets facing Germany, at that time. So that would explain why Mr.
William Black is in my plonk file.
William Black
I found it incredible that people NEEDED to be told that the old Soviet
Union acted in its own best interests.
A statement like that would probably produce a small ripple of laughter in
such a meeting in the UK.
That you operated at that level and STILL needed telling says a lot more
about the attitude of US 'seniors' than anything much else.
John Briggs
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:v%Yrk.86375$D01....@newsfe17.ams2...
>> William Black wrote:
>>> "Billzz" <billzz...@starband.net> wrote in message
>>> news:6ec6d$48af779e$9440b19b$20...@STARBAND.NET...
>>>
>>>> You can always trust the Soviets to do exactly what is in their
>>>> best interests." And then he repeated himself three times.
>>>
>>> You've got to be reasonably dense to have to be told this.
>>>
>>> I find the USA invariably acts in a similar manner, as does every
>>> other major power, with the possible exception of the UK which
>>> seems for some reason to do stuff to make the US happy to no very
>>> good purpose. For example, I have yet to work out why our Foreign
>>> Secretary, a
>>> man noted for his intellectual ability, opened his mouth over
>>> Georgia. All it did was make the US happy and make him look
>>> impotent...
>>
>> And to whose political advantage would that be, then?
>
> Which is the very odd point.
>
> Today, nobody's...
>
> I suppose there's the slight possibility that Milliband may be trying
> to make himself look to the USA and so be acceptable as the UK Prime
> Minister at some future date, but he's got an academic reputation
> there anyway and shouldn't need to do it.
Supporting the USA helps Gordon Brown there - and making Miliband look silly
here helps Gordon Brown here.
--
John Briggs
William Black
Except that Brown isn't here to tell him what to say, he's in China at the
party...
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast
wrote:
> "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>
> news:E70sk.25092$qm2....@newsfe13.ams2...
>
>
>
> > William Black wrote:
> >>news:v%Yrk.86375$D01....@newsfe17.ams2...
> >>> William Black wrote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually he is probably there to support the Brit contingent rather
than
simply party. Is it true that the Aussies have won only one medal ?
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andrew Swallow
[snip]
>
> I found it incredible that people NEEDED to be told that the old Soviet
> Union acted in its own best interests.
Communist governments claimed to act in the interests of the workers.
Andrew Swallow
Hiccum Blurpaedius
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:08:24 -0700 (PDT), 95 Thesen
>
What doya know. The virgin whore and her bastard son.
That picture is enough to make any christian cream his jeans.
God is a Pedo.
Moishe Oysher
Did you feel that twitch from the chip in your back?
Want me to do it again?
John Kane
John Kane
Err, yes. I'm still having trouble with all those new countries. My
atlas still refers to the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast
> In <7426e2f0-77ed-49b0-a0d7-cd08514b8...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hogg, you have really gone over the top with this link to the
UK SUN, a bona fide Brit scandal sheet.
I am embarrassed for you. These Russian senior citizen sunbathers
deserve a tad more respect from an old veteran like yourself.
Hiccup Burplaedius and Moses Oysters have pen names that speak
for themselves.
But the name of Hogg should have never been connected to THE SUN.
Any self-respecting Tory should provide links to the TELEGRAPH,
the TIMES of London, and the DAILY MAIL.
The Texas branch of the Hogg family expects every Brit Hogg to do his
duty
and keep to certain social limits. And quit calling me a commie or
anything
to the left of the Kadets of the 1913 State Duma.
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Hogg
"Singanas@Texasgulfcoast" <davidh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Aug 24, 11:00 am, Moishe Oysher <moi...@potsmail.com> wrote:
>> In <7426e2f0-77ed-49b0-a0d7-cd08514b8...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> Hiccum Blurpaedius <hic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 23, 4:58 am, James Hogg <Jas.Hogg...@SPAM.gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Here's a picture of some iconic ladies that will no doubt appeal
>> >> to closet commies like you and Hines:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1597513.ece
>>
>> >> James
>>
>> >What doya know. The virgin whore and her bastard son.
>>
>> >That picture is enough to make any christian cream his jeans.
>>
>> >God is a Pedo.
>>
>> Did you feel that twitch from the chip in your back?
>>
>> Want me to do it again?
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Hogg, you have really gone over the top with this link to the
>UK SUN, a bona fide Brit scandal sheet.
>I am embarrassed for you. These Russian senior citizen sunbathers
>deserve a tad more respect from an old veteran like yourself.
>Hiccup Burplaedius and Moses Oysters have pen names that speak
>for themselves.
>But the name of Hogg should have never been connected to THE SUN.
>Any self-respecting Tory should provide links to the TELEGRAPH,
>the TIMES of London, and the DAILY MAIL.
It was Hines who first drew my attention to The Sun website. I
also saw the photo of the Russian senior citizen sunbathers in
the respectable Dutch morning newspaper De Volkskrant (which I
consult for the fiendishly difficult Saturday sudoku), but it was
harder to provide a link directly to that photo.
>The Texas branch of the Hogg family expects every Brit Hogg to do his
>duty
>and keep to certain social limits. And quit calling me a commie or
>anything
>to the left of the Kadets of the 1913 State Duma.
I meant no harm in calling you a commie. Remember what the
precocious four-year-old John McCain said on that day in June
1941 when Germany invaded the Soviet Union:
"Today we are all Communists."
James