HMS Cromwell

Dan Bjarnason

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Feb 3, 2003, 4:31:24 PM2/3/03

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I've read that Winston Churchill once wanted to name a battleship
after Oliver Cromwell, feeling that he laid the foundations of what
would become the Royal Navy ... but that the King (George V? / George
VI?) refused to allow it.
Anyone heard anything about this story?
Thanks

Keith Willshaw

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Feb 3, 2003, 6:07:33 PM2/3/03

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"Dan Bjarnason" <dbja...@toronto.cbc.ca> wrote in message
news:cent3vcro24orkm3n...@4ax.com...

Many times and its baloney.

There have been ships named HMS Cromwell the last being a destroyer
HMS Cromwell (R35) that was sold to the Norwegians in 1946
and renamed Bergen .

Keith

Tom Schoene

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Feb 3, 2003, 9:52:33 PM2/3/03

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"Keith Willshaw" <keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b1msne$de$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...

This doesn't necessarily make the story untrue.

I'm having a lot of trouble finding info on any HMS Cromwells other than the
C-class destroyer of 1945 I know there must have been one, but only by
circumstantial evidence. (mention online of a German raider sunk by an HMS
Cromwell, and of someone joining HMS Cromwell in the 1930s.)

However, this does not rule out the possibility that the Monarch did in fact
block Churchill's plan for a battleship named for the Lord protector. In
_Rules of the Game_, Andrew Gordon mentions that Churchill, as 1st Lord of
the Admiralty, wanted one of the 1911 Battleships (Iron Duke class) to be
HMS Oliver Cromwell. This, he writes, was vetoed by George V, who suggested
Marlborough instead. The name Oliver Cromwell was put forward again for one
of the Queen Elizabeth-class fast battleships, and again vetoed. Gordon
does cite sources, including what seems to be a quote from the King's
secretary. But it is a second-hand cite, so the tale is not beyond doubt.

I can see why the king might object to "Oliver Cromwell" mixed in with other
names so closely aligned with the monarchy (either former rulers or
defenders thereof). A destroyer or light cruiser named "Cromwell" isn't
quite so inflammatory.

It may also be simply a matter of timing. George V might not have allowed
it in 1912, but perhaps George VI didn't mind.

Just thoughts. I look forward to more info.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but
the act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment."
Karl Friedrich Gauss

Peter Skelton

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Feb 3, 2003, 10:03:54 PM2/3/03

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On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 02:52:33 GMT, "Tom Schoene"
<tasc...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:

>
>"Keith Willshaw" <keith@kwillshaw_NoSpam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:b1msne$de$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> "Dan Bjarnason" <dbja...@toronto.cbc.ca> wrote in message
>> news:cent3vcro24orkm3n...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >
>> > I've read that Winston Churchill once wanted to name a battleship
>> > after Oliver Cromwell, feeling that he laid the foundations of what
>> > would become the Royal Navy ... but that the King (George V? / George
>> > VI?) refused to allow it.
>> > Anyone heard anything about this story?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>>
>> Many times and its baloney.
>>
>> There have been ships named HMS Cromwell the last being a destroyer
>> HMS Cromwell (R35) that was sold to the Norwegians in 1946
>> and renamed Bergen .
>
>This doesn't necessarily make the story untrue.
>
>I'm having a lot of trouble finding info on any HMS Cromwells other than the
>C-class destroyer of 1945 I know there must have been one, but only by
>circumstantial evidence. (mention online of a German raider sunk by an HMS
>Cromwell, and of someone joining HMS Cromwell in the 1930s.)

For what it's worth, the compillation in Janes of WWII does not
show any previous Cromwells.
____

Peter Skelton

Jdf4cheval

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Feb 3, 2003, 11:08:08 PM2/3/03

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I think it was actually Jackie Fisher, the First SL, who proposed the name, his
friendship with King Edward VII notwithstanding.

Jdf4cheval

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Feb 3, 2003, 11:08:55 PM2/3/03

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Further to my previous post, Fisher actually wanted the ship named Oliver
Cromwell.

BF Lake

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Feb 3, 2003, 11:22:13 PM2/3/03

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"Tom Schoene" <tasc...@earthlink.invalid> wrote in message
news:RVF%9.4543$

> However, this does not rule out the possibility that the Monarch did in
fact
> block Churchill's plan for a battleship named for the Lord protector. In
> _Rules of the Game_, Andrew Gordon mentions that Churchill, as 1st Lord of
> the Admiralty, wanted one of the 1911 Battleships (Iron Duke class) to be
> HMS Oliver Cromwell. This, he writes, was vetoed by George V, who
suggested
> Marlborough instead. The name Oliver Cromwell was put forward again for
one
> of the Queen Elizabeth-class fast battleships, and again vetoed. Gordon
> does cite sources, including what seems to be a quote from the King's
> secretary. But it is a second-hand cite, so the tale is not beyond doubt.

This has something on that:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/actst1912.htm

The name was changed to VALIANT

Regards,
Barry

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

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Feb 4, 2003, 5:00:06 AM2/4/03

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In article <cent3vcro24orkm3n...@4ax.com>,

That was the QEs - Churchill tried several times to get a ship
named for Cromwell. Both times Futile Georgie[1] vetoed it.
The story is given in Alan Massie's (excellent) "Dreadnought"

[1] Jackie Fisher's name for George V.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

Thomas Schoene

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Feb 4, 2003, 7:15:21 PM2/4/03

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"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:mbau3vgapcos9m21g...@4ax.com...

On further research, I believe that there never was an HMS Cromwell before
that C-class DD. It appears that my circumstantial evidence of such a ship
is incorrect and I can find nothing to suggest one existed.

Here's the first online reference I found to an HMS Cromwell prior to the
C-class destroyer of that name:

"In December 1936, Scott-Ford joined HMS Impregnable at Devonport to undergo
training for the Royal Navy. Just after his sixteenth birthday in September
1937, Scott-Ford joined the Royal Navy and was posted to HMS Cromwell. In
June 1939, he was transferred to HMS Gloucester as a Boy Seaman 1st Class."
( http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/scott_ford.htm )

On closer reading, it actually appears that HMS Cromwell was a shore
establishment or accommodation hulk of some sort, not a real ship. But I
can't even find a reference to that, so I suspect there may be something
wrong with the whole account.

The other reference I found was to the German raider KMS Pinguin being sunk
by the heavy cruiser "HMS Cromwell" during WW2. (
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/kriegsmarine/raider/pinguin/pinguin.h
tml )
This is a real poser, because no such ship appears on any list I could find,
and it's rather easy to find comprehensive lists of major ships like
cruisers. For example: http://www.warships1.com/British_cruisers1.htm

Fortunately, a more detailed history of Pinguin's career (
http://members.tripod.com/Tenika/qships/page48.htm ) shows that the ship in
question is actually HMS Cornwall, an RN heavy cruiser of the Kent class,
not Cromwell. It's an easy mental error to make, especially for a
non-native speaker of English.

So I'm inclined to believe that the C-class destroyer of 1945 was in fact
the first ever HMS Cromwell. This makes the Churchill story about the name
plausible, IMHO.

ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk

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Feb 5, 2003, 6:54:42 PM2/5/03

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In article <mbau3vgapcos9m21g...@4ax.com>,
skel...@cogeco.ca (Peter Skelton) wrote:

> For what it's worth, the compillation in Janes of WWII does not
> show any previous Cromwells.

Neither does Conways. What I do not have is any source for shore
stations. They were all HMS something.

Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk

Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)