Correct pronunciation of "Prinz Eugen" and "Gneisenau"?
Darrell Hopp
Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
those two.
Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
Darrell
darrel...@wonderware.com
Allen Thomson
In article <6depp5$k...@news1.newsguy.com> darrel...@wonderware.com (Darrell Hopp) writes:
>Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
>those two.
>
>Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
OYgehn, where the g is as in "gargle"
>
>Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
No, it's there, if a little inconspicuous because the syllable is
unaccented, like "gnade."
Jeff Crowell
Darrell Hopp (darrel...@wonderware.com) wrote:
: Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
: those two.
: Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
Prinz OYgen, hard g.
: Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
Sortakinda there, like (gulp)nizanow, long i, ow as in "ouch", not
ganizanow.
Or so sez my Mom, who's German.
"Goebbels" is the hard one for me, that guttural oe thang. A lot of
people pronounce it like it was spelled Gerbels, hard g.
Jeff
--
Professionals are predictable. It's the amateurs that are dangerous.
Murphy's Laws of Combat
Bill McClain
Fone-ett-i-klee speaking..
Prints oy-gen (hard 'g')
G'nize'n'now
Darrell Hopp wrote in message <6depp5$k...@news1.newsguy.com>...
>Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
>those two.
>
>Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
>
>Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
>
>Darrell
>darrel...@wonderware.com
>
Dwayne Allen Day
Darrell Hopp (darrel...@wonderware.com) wrote:
: Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
: those two.
: Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
OYgen.
: Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
For all intents and purposes, yes.
DDAY
Owe Jessen
On 2 Mar 1998 17:20:37 GMT, darrel...@wonderware.com (Darrell Hopp)
wrote:
>Three years of German in college and I still can't figure out
>those two.
>
>Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
>
>Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
>
>Darrell
>darrel...@wonderware.com
The "Eu" in Eugen is prononced like "oi" in "loiter", the G in
Gneisenau is not silent (btw, few g's are silent in German(except in
slang))
Owe
Recall that to every complex problem, there is a solution which is supremely simple, wonderfully easy to express, intensely seductive, and dead wrong.
Chris Thompson
Are you sure about the G not being silent. I remember them saying Neisenau
on a documentary once. It is OiGen though for the Prinz. Was their a Prinz
named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
Also, where did Scharnhorst and Gneisenua come from? Were they famous
Germans in the past. I know the ship names were used on a similar duo in
WW1.
Chris Thompson
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Chris Thompson wrote:
> Was their a Prinz named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
Prince Eugene of Savoy was not German, but was arguably the greatest
soldier of his time.
born of Italo-French nobility, he moved to Austria and became field
marshal of Austria by the age of 29.
Both alne and in cooperation with the Duke of Marlborough he won a
series of victories voer all of austria's enemies.
he died around 1736.
the austrian navy had sever ships named Prinz Eugen and the german use
of the name was a political stroke following the anschluss.
Vince
D.C.KOH
Chris Thompson wrote:
>
<snipped>
> It is OiGen though for the Prinz. Was their a Prinz
> named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
>
I thought PE was a Swedish bloke? Apparently the Third Reich liked him a
lot tho, since one of the Waffen-SS divisions (IIRC the same one which
levelled Lidyce) was also designated Prinz Eugen.
> Also, where did Scharnhorst and Gneisenua come from? Were they famous
> Germans in the past. I know the ship names were used on a similar duo in
> WW1.
>
IIRC, S&G were both generals of FDG (Friedrich der Grosse) and
instrumental in the building of the Prussian Army. AFAIK, they're always
referred together, like Lewis & Clark, Nixon & Kissinger, Smith &
Wesson, Simon & Garfunkle...
Dan
Peter Skelton
"Prof. Vincent Brannigan" <vb...@umail.umd.edu> wrote:
>Chris Thompson wrote:
>
>> Was their a Prinz named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
>
>Prince Eugene of Savoy was not German, but was arguably the greatest
>soldier of his time.
>born of Italo-French nobility, he moved to Austria and became field
>marshal of Austria by the age of 29.
>Both alne and in cooperation with the Duke of Marlborough he won a
>series of victories voer all of austria's enemies.
>he died around 1736.
>
>the austrian navy had sever ships named Prinz Eugen and the german use
>of the name was a political stroke following the anschluss.
Was it Prinz Eugene the shiop was named for or Prinz Eugen, the architect
of the Austro-Hungarian modern navy. (I'm nowhere near a reference.)
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/634-0230
p...@adan.kingston.net
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
I have never heard of anyone else in Austria referred to as Prinz Eugen
except Eugene of Savoy. Prinz Franz Eugen in German.
Vince
Ogden Johnson III
D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
: Wesson, Simon & Garfunkle...
With the German hard G, or was that a G7?
William Hamblen
>Are you sure about the G not being silent. I remember them saying Neisenau
>on a documentary once. It is OiGen though for the Prinz. Was their a Prinz
>named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
>Also, where did Scharnhorst and Gneisenua come from? Were they famous
>Germans in the past. I know the ship names were used on a similar duo in
>WW1.
Gneisenau (the 'g' is voiced as a hard 'g'), Scharnhorst, Bluecher and
Luetzow were army field marshals and generals in the Napoleonic Wars.
Hipper and Graf Spee were WWI admirals. Prinz Eugen was Prince Eugene
of Savoy and a traditional Austrian name for ships. Hungary and
Germany were allies at the time and the Regent of Hungary, Admiral
Horthy, had been an admiral in the Austro-Hungarian navy. The WWII
light cruisers were named for cities.
How do you pronounce Horthy?
A R BREEN
In article <01bd4860$f35d9a20$22bc...@clthomps.reshall.umich.edu>,
Chris Thompson <clth...@umich.edu> wrote:
>. Was their a Prinz
>named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
>Also, where did Scharnhorst and Gneisenua come from? Were they famous
>Germans in the past. I know the ship names were used on a similar duo in
>WW1.
Before the 1890s german ships tended to have mythological or 'beast'
names (e.g. Nymphe, Thetis, Leopard).
From the 1890s to the early 1920s place names were favoured
for cruisers (e.g. Hamburg, Leipzig, Emden), famous names/
imperial titles for capital ships (e.g. Friedrich der Grosse
= Frederick the Great)
Essentially, this scheme was followed by the 1920s-1945 german
navy.
Bismarck: Named for the Prussian chancellor who unified Germany
in the 1870s (1 previous use: armoured cruiser
'Furst Bismarck' = 'Prince Bismarck', built 1897,
stricken 1915)
Tirpitz: Named for the Admiral who built up germany's navy
before WW1
Graf Zeppelin: Named after the airship pioneer
Scharnhorst: Named after the Napoleonic war era Prussian general
1 previous use: armoured cruiser sunk in 1914
Gneisenau: Another Napoleonic war general: 2nd ic to Blucher
in the run-up to Waterloo
1 previous use: armoured cruiser sunk in 1914
Prinz Eugen: Named after Prince Eugene of Savoy, a notable
Habsburg general in the 7 years war.
2 previous uses: 1 Austro-Hungarian dreadnought (1916)
1 British monitor (Prince Eugene, 1915)
Admiral Hipper: After the commander of the German battlecruiser
squadron at Jutland
Blucher: After the Prussian commander at Waterloo
1 previous use: dreadnought armoured cruiser sunk in
1915
Seydlitz: Don't know origin of name
Admiral Scheer: After the admiral commanding the High Seas Fleet at
Jutland
Deutschland: self explanatory. Re-named Luetzow 1940 (don't
know origin of name)
2 previous uses. 1 steam frigate, 1 pre-dreadnought.
Lutzow had been used before once, for Hipper's
flagship, sunk at Jutland in 1916.
Admiral Graf: After the commander of the far east cruiser squadron,
von Spee victor of Coronel, killed at the Falklands in 1914
when Scharnhorst was sunk.
Light cruisers (Emden, Koln, Konigsburg, Karlsruhl, Nurnberg, Leipzig)
all had city names.
Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
--
Andy Breen ~ Max-Planck Institut fur Aeronomie, Katlenburg-Lindau
breen-sleepysnail-helene-dot-mpae-dot-gwdg-dot-de
http-colon-slash-slash-www-dot-mpae-dot-gwdg-dot-de/tilde-breen
My posting, my opinions......
D.C.KOH
A R BREEN wrote:
>
> Seydlitz: Don't know origin of name
>
Lützow would almost definitely be a Prussian general. I think all most
if not all of the WW1 German BCs were named for Prussian generals...
Dan
Andrey Shvetsov
> Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
Seydlitz was a cavalry general of Friedrich the Great (mid-18th
century).
Cheers,
Andrey Shvetsov
Owe Jessen
On 6 Mar 1998 09:58:22 -0000, a...@aber.ac.uk (A R BREEN) wrote:
>Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
v. Seydlitz is the name of an old Prussian Army family, i seem to
recall one has been in service during Napoleonic wars, or something
else in the 19th century. I'm positive that one v. Seydlitz was
General of the Artilery in WWII in Stalingrad, and another one was G3
Training/Exercise in HQ LANDJUT until 1997. :)
William Hamblen
On 6 Mar 1998 09:58:22 -0000, a...@aber.ac.uk (A R BREEN) wrote:
>Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
All this erudition is courtesy of the electronic Encyclopedia
Britannica. It beats the stuffings out of Encarta, et al., unless all
you want is lots of pretty pictures.
Luetzow was a general in the Napoleonic Wars.
Seydlitz was a general in the Seven Years War.
Prince Eugene wasn't in the Seven Years War, mainly because he was
dead by then. His big war was the War of the Spanish Succession, in
the same army as the Duke of Marlborough, Churchill's ancestor
(irony).
von Moltke was a field marshal in the wars leading up to the formation
of the German Empire.
Derfflinger didn't rate an article in the EB.
Nothing says more about the lack of a German naval tradition than the
fact that they named their ships for generals.
Bertil Jonell
In article <34FEF2...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk>,
D.C.KOH <RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>Chris Thompson wrote:
>>
><snipped>
>
>> It is OiGen though for the Prinz. Was their a Prinz
>> named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
>>
There was a Swedish prince named Eugen too, although his name is
prounced something like Eeuh-SHEEN.
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Bruce D. Sinclair
A R BREEN wrote:
>
> In article <01bd4860$f35d9a20$22bc...@clthomps.reshall.umich.edu>,
> Chris Thompson <clth...@umich.edu> wrote:
> >named Eugen in German history that the ship was named after?
> >Germans in the past. I know the ship names were used on a similar duo in
> >WW1.
>
> Before the 1890s german ships tended to have mythological or 'beast'
> names (e.g. Nymphe, Thetis, Leopard).
> From the 1890s to the early 1920s place names were favoured
> for cruisers (e.g. Hamburg, Leipzig, Emden), famous names/
> imperial titles for capital ships (e.g. Friedrich der Grosse
> = Frederick the Great)
>
<snip>
.
>
> Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
Seydlitz was one of the cavalry commanders of Frederick the Great;
Lutzow a cavalry officer in the Prussian army of the Napoleonic wars.
TJG
In article <34ffd93f...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>,
stu3...@mail.uni-kiel..de says...
>
>recall one has been in service during Napoleonic wars, or something
>else in the 19th century. I'm positive that one v. Seydlitz was
>General of the Artilery in WWII in Stalingrad, and another one was G3
>Training/Exercise in HQ LANDJUT until 1997. :)
>
>
>Owe
>
Seydlitz was the commander of Frederick the Great's cavalry and was probably
the greatest such commander in German history (yeah, I know, name another 2 to
make the superlative case proper). He is especially known for pulling
Frederick's fat out of the fire at the battle of Rossbach, where he led two
successive charges that, 1. Alerted Frederick that it was time to stop lunch
and march the infantry to battle, and 2. Routed the Imperialist columns after
they deployed to face Frederick. His forces wore a distinctive straw-yellow
uniform. This is all from my 'Boy's Big Book of Land Battles', or the
equivalent.
Given his exploits, it seems appropriate to name the BC after him (it was a BC,
wasn't it?). Sorta like naming a US BC after Phil Sheridan (or JEB Stuart for
you Rebels).
>Recall that to every complex problem, there is a solution which is supremely
simple, wonde
>rfully easy to express, intensely seductive, and dead wrong.
--
****************************************************
Official Only When Embossed with Comptroller's Pseal
****************************************************
Peter H. Granzeau
>Nothing says more about the lack of a German naval tradition than the
>fact that they named their ships for generals.
Except, of course, for Graf Spee, Hipper, and Tirpitz.
William Hamblen
On Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:15:52 GMT, pgr...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
wrote:
Note the lack of the word "all" in the quoted sentence.
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> On Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:41:29 GMT, William...@nashville.com
> (William Hamblen) wrote:
>
> >>>Nothing says more about the lack of a German naval tradition than the
> >>>fact that they named their ships for generals.
> >>
> >>Except, of course, for Graf Spee, Hipper, and Tirpitz.
> >
> >Note the lack of the word "all" in the quoted sentence.
>
> non-inclusive.
>
> By the way, I forgot the panzerschiff Admiral Scheer. Of the seven
> largest ships, three were named for admirals.
the panzerschiffen may have been later than the WW1 ships, but they were
not larger. even for WW2 I make it 3 of the largest 12 ships
Tirpitz,Sheer and Hipper
out of
B&T, GZ, S&G, 3PS 4CA
Hipper was a cruiser. Graf zeppelin was also larger.
interesting that both sheer and hipper were preceded by "admiral" none
of the generals were.
Vince
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
my argument is that if the panzerschiffen are included so are the CAs.
there were about the same size
Vince
Peter H. Granzeau
Wouter Trioen
Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
<snip>
> not larger. even for WW2 I make it 3 of the largest 12 ships
> Tirpitz,Sheer and Hipper
> out of
> B&T, GZ, S&G, 3PS 4CA
>
> Hipper was a cruiser. Graf zeppelin was also larger.
> interesting that both sheer and hipper were preceded by "admiral" none
> of the generals were.
>
> Vince
For short
Bismarck politician
Tirpitz Admiral
Scharnhorst General (also ship)
Gneisenau General (also ship)
Graf Zeppelin ? (Air Force?)
Admiral Hipper Admiral
Blücher General (also ship)
Prinz Eugen General
Lützow General (also ship)
Seydlitz General (also ship)
Deutschland country
Lützow (ex-Deutschland) see above
Admiral Scheer Admiral
Admiral Graf Spee Admiral
(Nürnberg city
Leipzig city
Karlsruhe city
Köln city
Königsberg city
Emden city)
Now start counting:
4 admirals
6 generals of which 5 also famous ships of WWI
this leads to 9 out of 12 that have a connection with
naval tradition.
So Kriegsmarine has at least tried to build some naval tradition.
Of course if one starts talking about Hochseeflotte....
Wouter Trioen
Dave Powell
Wouter Trioen wrote in message > the
pan<3503F6A2...@student.kuleuven.ac.be>...
Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
<snip>
> not larger. even for WW2 I make it 3 of the largest 12 ships
> Tirpitz,Sheer and Hipper
More sadly snipped...
Question.. do any German ships today carry the names of the WW1/WW2 ships
listed below? Emden would be an awesome name to preserve, for instance... as
would Hipper, Spee, and some of the other Admirals...
What is the condition of the German maritime tradition today?
Dave Powell
Andrew Toppan
Dave Powell (david_po...@msn.com) was seen to write:
> Question.. do any German ships today carry the names of the WW1/WW2 ships
> listed below? Emden would be an awesome name to preserve, for instance... as
EMDEN, KOLN, BAYERN, BRANDENBERG, SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN are the only ones
that come to mind as surviving to this day, plus SACHSEN, HESSEN,
THURINGEN coming after 2000. There are also some ships honoring WWII
people - LUTJENS, ROMMEL.
I doubt names like BISMARCK, TIRPITZ, etc. will be re-used.
---
Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- "I speak only for myself"
U.S. Naval & Shipbuilding Museum/USS Salem Online @ http://www.uss-salem.org/
Naval History, World Navies Today, Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more
Railroad Rosters & Photo Features --- http://membrane.com/~elmer/rail/
William Hamblen
>Graf Zeppelin ? (Air Force?)
Graf (Count) Ferdinand von Zeppelin invented ... the zeppelin (rigid
airship). He, too, was a general.
Nigel Brand
There is an interesting episode which may shed some light on this.
During the late 1930s there was a furious fight within the German armed
services over future headquarters arrangements. Many senior Generals
believed that the Army general staff should basically run everything,
including the Navy and the Air Force, just as they always had. Keitel
however thought there should be a joint headquarters and his view was
supported by others. The issue was eventually resolved by Hitler, who
created the OKW - the joint headquarters, with himself as Commander in
Chief, once Brauschitsch was sacked.
The Anglo-Allied Joint Chiefs was a much more effective arrangement and
the old fashionedness of some of the Germans is surprising, although it
has echoes elsewhere. for example, the Chinese Navy is the People's
Liberation Army (Navy)!
Cheers
Nigel Brand
Owe Jessen
On 8 Mar 1998 00:50:45 GMT, tom...@eyex.netcom.com (TJG) wrote:
>In article <34ffd93f...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>,
>stu3...@mail.uni-kiel..de says...
>>
>>On 6 Mar 1998 09:58:22 -0000, a...@aber.ac.uk (A R BREEN) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anyone who who/what Seydlitz and Luetzow were?
>>
>>v. Seydlitz is the name of an old Prussian Army family, i seem to
>>recall one has been in service during Napoleonic wars, or something
>>else in the 19th century. I'm positive that one v. Seydlitz was
>>General of the Artilery in WWII in Stalingrad, and another one was G3
>>Training/Exercise in HQ LANDJUT until 1997. :)
>>
>>
>>Owe
>>
>
>Seydlitz was the commander of Frederick the Great's cavalry and was probably
>the greatest such commander in German history (yeah, I know, name another 2 to
>make the superlative case proper).
Thanks for filling me in on that one, and ashes upon my head for the
wrong century. I just tried to point out to the fact that this family
has quite a tradition in the german army, about 200 years. I guess
this would be like a direct decendent of Washington being in the US
Army.
Owe
Recall that to every complex problem, there is a solution which is supremely simple, wonderfully easy to express, intensely seductive, and dead wrong.
Owe Jessen
On 9 Mar 1998 21:49:15 GMT, el...@WPI.EDU (Andrew Toppan) wrote:
>Dave Powell (david_po...@msn.com) was seen to write:
>> Question.. do any German ships today carry the names of the WW1/WW2 ships
>> listed below? Emden would be an awesome name to preserve, for instance... as
>
>EMDEN, KOLN, BAYERN, BRANDENBERG, SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN are the only ones
>that come to mind as surviving to this day, plus SACHSEN, HESSEN,
>THURINGEN coming after 2000. There are also some ships honoring WWII
>people - LUTJENS, ROMMEL.
>
>I doubt names like BISMARCK, TIRPITZ, etc. will be re-used.
>
>
Tirpitz I can understand. But why not Bismark? IMO he is still a
respected figure of German history. Btw, any idea or suggestion as to
when we see the first ships named after person from the post-war eara?
(Maybe Adenauer, Brand, or some of the people who reorganized the
navy, maybe one or the other minister of defence).
Dave Powell
Owe Jessen wrote in message <3505a3c4...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>...
>On 9 Mar 1998 21:49:15 GMT, el...@WPI.EDU (Andrew Toppan) wrote:
>
>>Dave Powell (david_po...@msn.com) was seen to write:
>>> Question.. do any German ships today carry the names of the WW1/WW2
ships
>>> listed below? Emden would be an awesome name to preserve, for
instance... as
>>
>>EMDEN, KOLN, BAYERN, BRANDENBERG, SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN are the only ones
>>that come to mind as surviving to this day, plus SACHSEN, HESSEN,
>>THURINGEN coming after 2000. There are also some ships honoring WWII
>>people - LUTJENS, ROMMEL.
>>
>>I doubt names like BISMARCK, TIRPITZ, etc. will be re-used.
>>
>>
>
>Tirpitz I can understand. But why not Bismark? IMO he is still a
>respected figure of German history. Btw, any idea or suggestion as to
>when we see the first ships named after person from the post-war eara?
>(Maybe Adenauer, Brand, or some of the people who reorganized the
>navy, maybe one or the other minister of defence).
Bismarck was a great name and a great ship.. I don't understand why the name
isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl? Adenauer and Brand are both great
names...
Do they still use the names of old German kings? Friedrich der Grosse, etc.?
D.C.KOH
Dave Powell wrote:
>
> >Tirpitz I can understand. But why not Bismark? IMO he is still a
> >respected figure of German history. Btw, any idea or suggestion as to
> >when we see the first ships named after person from the post-war eara?
> >(Maybe Adenauer, Brand, or some of the people who reorganized the
> >navy, maybe one or the other minister of defence).
>
> Bismarck was a great name and a great ship.. I don't understand why the name
> isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
> name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl? Adenauer and Brand are both great
> names...
>
> Do they still use the names of old German kings? Friedrich der Grosse, etc.?
>
Germany is a Republic. Almost impossible that they'll use the name of a
king for their ship.
Besides, Germany is suppose to be getting away from her militaristic
past (Prussian or otherwise).
Hell, if they aren't going to name a ship after Stauffenberg or any of
the Kreisau/July 20 conspirators, do you think they'll name one after
Old Blood & Iron? As it is the names of Rommel and Mölders would most
probably not be re-used, and they are considered as decent as any German
military figures as Germany's had this century.
Dan
Thomas Buell
D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
: > isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
: > name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl?
: Naming a ship for Fatso? Now that'll be a laff...
Nice name for an old BB: Large, beamy vessel. Has been of some use back
in the old days. Hardly affected by anything coming from outside.
When visiting foreign harbours frequently runs aground or hits something
due to poor manoeuverability and communication problems, but looks very
impressive once alongside the other ships.
Has received only minor modernizations during her long service life, but
has not yet been replaced because there always have been a few fans and
nothing to take her place.
Thomas
D.C.KOH
Thomas Buell wrote:
>
> D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
> : > isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
> : > name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl?
> (...)
> : Naming a ship for Fatso? Now that'll be a laff...
>
> Nice name for an old BB: Large, beamy vessel. Has been of some use back
> in the old days. Hardly affected by anything coming from outside.
> When visiting foreign harbours frequently runs aground or hits something
> due to poor manoeuverability and communication problems, but looks very
> impressive once alongside the other ships.
>
Fatso certainly dwarfs the rest. The 1997-commisioned British flagship
HMS Cool Britannia is puny in comparison...
> Has received only minor modernizations during her long service life, but
> has not yet been replaced because there always have been a few fans and
> nothing to take her place.
>
Recently it seems that there's a possible replacement for DM Fatso
coming from a rival ship-builder. New vessel has been described as 'very
hard to pin down on any single position' (a modern stealth design
perhaps?) and in fact has been compared with the difficulty of pinning
down blancmanges on the wall in this respect.
I don't know much about the new vessel except that it is not as large or
beamy as Fatso. Name is believed to be one those popular German 'Sch'
names that German ships are often named for, although it's definitely
not Scharnhorst or Schleswig-Holstein...
When is the decision due for selection of possible replacements? I've
heard that it has been hoped that Fatso would still be the flagship when
2000 comes...
Dan
Owe Jessen
>Owe Jessen wrote in message <3505a3c4...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>...
>>On 9 Mar 1998 21:49:15 GMT, el...@WPI.EDU (Andrew Toppan) wrote:
>>
>>>Dave Powell (david_po...@msn.com) was seen to write:
>>>> Question.. do any German ships today carry the names of the WW1/WW2
>ships
>>>> listed below? Emden would be an awesome name to preserve, for
>instance... as
>>>
>>>EMDEN, KOLN, BAYERN, BRANDENBERG, SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN are the only ones
>>>that come to mind as surviving to this day, plus SACHSEN, HESSEN,
>>>THURINGEN coming after 2000. There are also some ships honoring WWII
>>>people - LUTJENS, ROMMEL.
>>>
>>>I doubt names like BISMARCK, TIRPITZ, etc. will be re-used.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Tirpitz I can understand. But why not Bismark? IMO he is still a
>>respected figure of German history. Btw, any idea or suggestion as to
>>when we see the first ships named after person from the post-war eara?
>>(Maybe Adenauer, Brand, or some of the people who reorganized the
>>navy, maybe one or the other minister of defence).
>
>Bismarck was a great name and a great ship.. I don't understand why the name
>isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
>name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl? Adenauer and Brand are both great
>names...
>
>Do they still use the names of old German kings? Friedrich der Grosse, etc.?
>
Helmut Kohl will have to wait until he's dead, so that might take its
time. I somehow have the impression they dont want to name ships after
persons to evoid the pissing contest of the political parties which
ship gets named after whom. For example: Cristianing of the first ship
in a class, so that the class is equally labeled. Or: Is it possible
to name a ship after someone from before 1945? Even Staufenberg or
Canaris or somebody else of the german resistance might be unpopular.
Thomas Buell
D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
: Fatso certainly dwarfs the rest. The 1997-commisioned British flagship
: HMS Cool Britannia is puny in comparison...
So was her predecessor: There is a famous photo, also sold as a postcard,
showing HMS Major alongside FGS Kohl with Major easily inside Kohl's
silhoutte.
:
: > Has received only minor modernizations during her long service life, but
: > has not yet been replaced because there always have been a few fans and
: > nothing to take her place.
: >
: When is the decision due for selection of possible replacements?
It's in late September. But the rival ship-builder is known for making
very effective self-destruction devices. None of their ships was sunk
as a result of enemy action. FGS Schmidt was scuttled, several experimental
vessels didn't meet the requirements, including U-Lafontaine, which was
rejected because of her heavy list to port. Four years ago the new "Troika"
sweeping system went down during a successful self-destruction test, and
FGS Fatso had to undergo a servicelife extension.
Let's see what happens to Stealth-Schröder.
: I've
: heard that it has been hoped that Fatso would still be the flagship when
: 2000 comes...
Who told you? Someone from Tender Hannelore?
Thomas
Dave Powell
Owe Jessen wrote in message <3507af52...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>...
Hell, Canaris deserves one, for the life he lived... running around the
Mideast and on the Orient Express during WW1 and thereabouts, allegedly
hooking up with Mata Hari, building the Abwher(?), being a rival to the
Gestapo and Nazi party... and having naval ties to boot! Not to mention his
involvement in the plot to assassinate Hitler.
>
>
>Owe
>
>Recall that to every complex problem, there is a solution which is
supremely simple, wonderfully easy to express, intensely seductive, and dead
wrong.
Hmm... true... very true.
i...@svpal.org
In article <ucTaqIS...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"Dave Powell" <david_po...@msn.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
> Hell, Canaris deserves one, for the life he lived... running around the
> Mideast and on the Orient Express during WW1 and thereabouts, allegedly
> hooking up with Mata Hari, building the Abwher(?), being a rival to the
> Gestapo and Nazi party... and having naval ties to boot! Not to mention his
> involvement in the plot to assassinate Hitler.
The trouble with Canaris is that there is some evidence that he
may have been eligible to have one of HM Ships named after him.
IBM
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Thomas Buell wrote:
>
> D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : Fatso certainly dwarfs the rest. The 1997-commisioned British flagship
> : HMS Cool Britannia is puny in comparison...
>
> So was her predecessor: There is a famous photo, also sold as a postcard,
> showing HMS Major alongside FGS Kohl with Major easily inside Kohl's
> silhoutte.
>
>
To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
changing either the rudder or the screws because the whole ship bends.
This allows the ship to avoid barriers while claiming to steer a
"straight" course. Whether it's an improvement over the USS George,
which had no engines, or the USS Ronnie, (oversize, over budget, and
listing all the way to the right) we'll just have ot wait and see.
Vince
D.C.KOH
Thomas Buell wrote:
>
> It's in late September. But the rival ship-builder is known for making
>
I guess that explains why Fatso has been in service for such a long
time... I got the impression that he was not a very endearing vessel to
many, so the replacements must have had really bad design flaws...
> : I've
> : heard that it has been hoped that Fatso would still be the flagship when
> : 2000 comes...
>
> Who told you? Someone from Tender Hannelore?
>
necessarily his ship-builder) that he would still be the flagship for
the 'first wave'. Who is Hannelore?
Dan
Thomas Buell
D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
: I believe the Times mentioned that it was the hope of Fatso's crew (not
: necessarily his ship-builder) that he would still be the flagship for
: the 'first wave'.
A German paper called this the "Modell Titanic". Before the flagship's last
service life extension it was promised to decommission her after two years
or so. Bets were that FGS Schäuble, then serving as the repeater frigate,
would become the new flagship. During the past time he has shown to be
also capable of operating independently.
Many people think he would stand better chances against the competitor's
low signature Schröder and his modern modular design.
(The WIFE-module has been replaced, recently. Though not exactly an
upgrade, it was demonstrated that such changes can be carried out within
just a few days and without affecting the combat readiness.)
But yet the flag officers refuse to move to the frigate. Nearer my God
to Thee...
: Who is Hannelore?
This is the old-fashioned, non modular WIFE-facility as used by the
flagship.
Thomas
Thomas Buell
Prof. Vincent Brannigan (vb...@umail.umd.edu) wrote:
: To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
: the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
: changing either the rudder or the screws because the whole ship bends.
=:-)
Is this what happens to USS Big Bill during or after an emergency blow?
Thomas
Malcolm
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Prof. Vincent Brannigan signalled:
>To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
>the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
>changing either the rudder or the screws
I understand there is a cause and effect relationship between the number
of screws and the amount of flexibility.
>because the whole ship bends.
>This allows the ship to avoid barriers while claiming to steer a
>"straight" course. Whether it's an improvement over the USS George,
>which had no engines, or the USS Ronnie, (oversize, over budget, and
>listing all the way to the right) we'll just have ot wait and see.
>
>Vince
--
Regards
Malcolm
"It's easy to be brilliant if you are not bothered about being right".
Hector McNeil (1907 - 1955)
(In Denis Healey "The Time of My Life")
"The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest
coward like everybody else".
Umberto Eco
("Travels in Hyper Reality", 1986)
Peter Skelton
Malcolm <Pus...@clarkeassoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Prof. Vincent Brannigan signalled:
>>To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
>>the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
>>changing either the rudder or the screws
>
>I understand there is a cause and effect relationship between the number
>of screws and the amount of flexibility.
In view of the original JFK I find this a rather astounding theory.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/634-0230
p...@adan.kingston.net
D.C.KOH
Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
> the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
> This allows the ship to avoid barriers while claiming to steer a
> "straight" course. Whether it's an improvement over the USS George,
> which had no engines, or the USS Ronnie, (oversize, over budget, and
> listing all the way to the right) we'll just have ot wait and see.
>
workrate on foreign stations and duties, but admittedly that effort
seemed to mean that when in port or home waters, USS George's power
plant would be U/S. Steering gear in port and home waters were almost
gone too.
USS Ronnie AKA Gipper despite a pronounced starboard-list and enormous
cost, was endowed with a fabulously great communications suite. CIC was
less than adequate however. In fact some suspect that it was never
installed...
Dan
Owe Jessen
On 11 Mar 1998 14:22:59 GMT, Thomas...@heim1.tu-clausthal.de
(Thomas Buell) wrote:
>D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
>: > isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
>: > name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl?
>(...)
>: Naming a ship for Fatso? Now that'll be a laff...
>
>Nice name for an old BB: Large, beamy vessel. Has been of some use back
>in the old days. Hardly affected by anything coming from outside.
>When visiting foreign harbours frequently runs aground or hits something
>due to poor manoeuverability and communication problems, but looks very
>impressive once alongside the other ships.
>Has received only minor modernizations during her long service life, but
>has not yet been replaced because there always have been a few fans and
>nothing to take her place.
>
> Thomas
LMAO
Seen in this context, it really is a shame there wont ever be a German
BB again.
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
D.C.KOH wrote:
>
> Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
> >
> > To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
> > the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
> > changing either the rudder or the screws because the whole ship bends.
> > This allows the ship to avoid barriers while claiming to steer a
> > "straight" course. Whether it's an improvement over the USS George,
> > which had no engines, or the USS Ronnie, (oversize, over budget, and
> > listing all the way to the right) we'll just have ot wait and see.
> >
> Did USS George have no engines? Certainly he seemed capable of good
> workrate on foreign stations and duties, but admittedly that effort
> seemed to mean that when in port or home waters, USS George's power
> plant would be U/S. Steering gear in port and home waters were almost
> gone too.
Floating in a strong current gives an excellent impression of engines.
> USS Ronnie AKA Gipper despite a pronounced starboard-list and enormous
> cost, was endowed with a fabulously great communications suite. CIC was
> less than adequate however. In fact some suspect that it was never
> installed...
>
not to mention the fuel shortage that hit when the unpaid bills came
due.
Vince
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Peter Skelton wrote:
>
> Malcolm <Pus...@clarkeassoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Prof. Vincent Brannigan signalled:
> >>the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
> >>changing either the rudder or the screws
> >
> >of screws and the amount of flexibility.
>
> In view of the original JFK I find this a rather astounding theory.
>
but no one could detect any of them. They all ran all the time, but in
retrospect ths ship while handsome did not go anywhere. The ELBIE sank
after hitting a rock while the captian was trying to imporve the cres
living conditions. The concept of a curved ship began with the USS
Tricky Dick, which was so crooked it torpedoed itself. It was abandoned
in favor of the USS Gerry (an unarmed barge of very poor seakeeping) and
the USS Jimmy, an unusual straight arrow design that could not turn at
all.
Vince
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Peter Skelton wrote:
>
> Malcolm <Pus...@clarkeassoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Prof. Vincent Brannigan signalled:
> >>To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
> >>the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
> >>changing either the rudder or the screws
> >
> >I understand there is a cause and effect relationship between the number
> >of screws and the amount of flexibility.
>
> In view of the original JFK I find this a rather astounding theory.
>
The USS Big John was a stealth ship with a vast number of propellers,
but no one could detect any of them. They all ran all the time, but in
retrospect ths ship while handsome did not go anywhere. The ELBIE sank
Peter Skelton
"Prof. Vincent Brannigan" <vb...@umail.umd.edu> wrote:
>Peter Skelton wrote:
>>
>> Malcolm <Pus...@clarkeassoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Prof. Vincent Brannigan signalled:
>> >>To see the real state of the art you have to try to catch a glimpse of
>> >>the USS BIG BILL. Only ship in the world that can manuver without
>> >>changing either the rudder or the screws
>> >
>> >I understand there is a cause and effect relationship between the number
>> >of screws and the amount of flexibility.
>>
>> In view of the original JFK I find this a rather astounding theory.
>>
>The USS Big John was a stealth ship with a vast number of propellers,
>but no one could detect any of them. They all ran all the time, but in
>retrospect ths ship while handsome did not go anywhere. The ELBIE sank
>after hitting a rock while the captian was trying to imporve the cres
>living conditions. The concept of a curved ship began with the USS
>Tricky Dick, which was so crooked it torpedoed itself. It was abandoned
>in favor of the USS Gerry (an unarmed barge of very poor seakeeping) and
>the USS Jimmy, an unusual straight arrow design that could not turn at
>all.
Most interesting.
Someone posted the comments about ATB/ITB'S in the merchant yards thread.
With its help I am finally beginning to understand certain of the US ships
(Big Bill, Rompin' Ronnie, And Big John at least.)
Clearly the voter selects the barge but is driven by the tug. You may wish
to reflect this motive reality in your descriptions.
The posting follows:
> From the Great Lakes perspective, the US Yards will probably only deal with new
> construction of Articulated and Integrated Tug-Barge units in the future.
> Some older lakers (6 or 7) have been converted to ATB/ITB's. There hasnt been a new
> powered vessel built for the great lakes sevice in about 10 or 12 years. Some
> of these Tug Barge units reach up to 1,000 feet long , 105 feet wide and 35
> foot draft . They are far more economicle to operate with a crew of about half
> and self unloading booms up to 260 feet long.
> There has been talk of some over seas contracts for tankers built on the
> lakes but nothing has been built recently.
Katana
>So who was VON DER TANN (WWI battlecruiser) named after?
>
the guy who invented the tanning bed...of course
Erwin Wodarczak
Wouter Trioen <wouter...@student.kuleuven.ac.be> wrote:
>For short
>Bismarck politician
>Tirpitz Admiral
>Scharnhorst General (also ship)
>Gneisenau General (also ship)
>Graf Zeppelin ? (Air Force?)
>Admiral Hipper Admiral
>Bl=FCcher General (also ship)
>Prinz Eugen General
>L=FCtzow General (also ship)
>Seydlitz General (also ship)
>Deutschland country
>L=FCtzow (ex-Deutschland) see above
>Admiral Scheer Admiral
>Admiral Graf Spee Admiral
So who was VON DER TANN (WWI battlecruiser) named after?
>(N=FCrnberg city
>Leipzig city
>Karlsruhe city
>K=F6ln city
>K=F6nigsberg city
>Emden city)
>Now start counting:
> 4 admirals
> 6 generals of which 5 also famous ships of WWI
>this leads to 9 out of 12 that have a connection with
>naval tradition.
>So Kriegsmarine has at least tried to build some naval tradition.
>Of course if one starts talking about Hochseeflotte....
>Wouter Trioen
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Erwin Wodarczak (wode...@unixg.ubc.ca)
http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/woderwin/ (just me)
http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/woderwin/alt_hist/ (The Path Not Taken)
A burro is an ass. A burrow is a hole in the ground.
Remember the difference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Erwin Wodarczak
"D.C.KOH" <RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>Dave Powell wrote:
>> Do they still use the names of old German kings? Friedrich der Grosse, =
>etc.?
>> =
>Germany is a Republic. Almost impossible that they'll use the name of a
>king for their ship. =
>Besides, Germany is suppose to be getting away from her militaristic
>past (Prussian or otherwise). =
>Hell, if they aren't going to name a ship after Stauffenberg or any of
>the Kreisau/July 20 conspirators, do you think they'll name one after
>Old Blood & Iron? As it is the names of Rommel and M=F6lders would most
>probably not be re-used, and they are considered as decent as any German
>military figures as Germany's had this century.
How about Lettow-Vorbeck, WWI commander in German East Africa? He led
British and South African forces a merry chase until several weeks
*after* the Armistice - gained the respect of allies and foes alike -
supported his askaris (native soldiers) in their attempts to get
pensions from the German govt. after WWI (at least that's the story I
recall reading once - if true, it probably puts him several
generations ahead of his countrymen in terms of race relations) - and
although a staunch conservative, was anti-Nazi.
Thomas Buell
Erwin Wodarczak (wode...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: How about Lettow-Vorbeck, WWI commander in German East Africa? He led
AFAIK several army barracks are named for him, or at least were.
Thomas
D.C.KOH
Barry Lake wrote:
>
> While we're at it, can anybody clear up the correct use of "von" when also
> using the rank? IIRC, it is ok to say , "von Spee" but wrong to say
> ,"Admiral von Spee." Graf means "count" I think, so is that like a rank re
> von? Do you say Graf Spee or Graf von Spee or what? The ship was the
> "Admiral Graf Spee" and the carrier was "Graf Zeppelin" in Jane's, if that
> means anything. ( So I don't get thrown out of court in case I am
> presented.) Thanks, Barry
>
IIRC, 'von' is an honorific/title given by the sovereign, kind of like a
knighthood 'Sir'. Using Hipper who was so honoured after Jutland, I
think he would be Admiral von Hipper.
OTOH, Graf is a (heriditary?) title meaning 'Count'. So it's Count Spee.
BTW I don't know if Spee had or used the 'von' honorific.
Dan
Owe Jessen
On 6 Mar 98 13:22:14 GMT, "Barry Lake" <bfl...@coastnet.com> wrote:
>While we're at it, can anybody clear up the correct use of "von" when also
>using the rank? IIRC, it is ok to say , "von Spee" but wrong to say
>,"Admiral von Spee." Graf means "count" I think, so is that like a rank re
>von? Do you say Graf Spee or Graf von Spee or what? The ship was the
>"Admiral Graf Spee" and the carrier was "Graf Zeppelin" in Jane's, if that
>means anything. ( So I don't get thrown out of court in case I am
>presented.) Thanks, Barry
Talking about the name of the person, the von has no meaning other
than to distinguish of wich family he comes, like the de in france. It
is not a rank of itself, merely showing some kind of nobility. I guess
the correct name was Graf von Spee, but it could be shortened to Graf
Spee. I do not know wether you were allowed to prefix military and
nobility rank together to your name, but i dont see any problems to do
so. This of course has nothing to do with the ships name, it should
always be the name it was cristianed with.
Andrey Shvetsov
D.C.KOH wrote:
>
> IIRC, 'von' is an honorific/title given by the sovereign, kind of like a
> knighthood 'Sir'. Using Hipper who was so honoured after Jutland, I
> think he would be Admiral von Hipper.
> OTOH, Graf is a (heriditary?) title meaning 'Count'. So it's Count Spee.
> BTW I don't know if Spee had or used the 'von' honorific.
>
Originally, count of the county 'Spee'. Later on as nobility titles
become detached from actual estates, "von", "of", "des" and the like
started to be used just as prefix before name of the noble.
Cheers,
Andrey Shvetsov
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
D.C.KOH wrote:
>
> Barry Lake wrote:
> >
> > While we're at it, can anybody clear up the correct use of "von" when also
> > using the rank? IIRC, it is ok to say , "von Spee" but wrong to say
> > ,"Admiral von Spee." Graf means "count" I think, so is that like a rank re
> > von? Do you say Graf Spee or Graf von Spee or what? The ship was the
> > "Admiral Graf Spee" and the carrier was "Graf Zeppelin" in Jane's, if that
> > means anything. ( So I don't get thrown out of court in case I am
> > presented.) Thanks, Barry
> >
> knighthood 'Sir'. Using Hipper who was so honoured after Jutland, I
> think he would be Admiral von Hipper.
> OTOH, Graf is a (heriditary?) title meaning 'Count'. So it's Count Spee.
> BTW I don't know if Spee had or used the 'von' honorific.
>
This is not quite right. "von" literally "from" and normally follows
the rank e.g. Graf Von Spee etc. Other titles are Freiherr (baron)
Furst (prince) although prince is also used with "Zu" The only person
I have found among the ship names that had a simple von is Scharnhorst.
the von can also be used in the name. this is a little confusing since
Blucher for example was both
Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher,
Furst von WAHLSTATT
Admiral Spees first name was Maximilian, so he could have been addressed
as either max von spee or Graf von spee. often when the title was used
the von was omitted. e.g. Graf Spee
vince
Unqabear
>IIRC, 'von' is an honorific/title given by the sovereign, kind of like a
>knighthood 'Sir'.
Well . . . sort of. "von" means "of," as in Sir Robin "of" Locksley. So,
Admiral Graf von Spee translates roughly as Admiral, the Count of Spee. In the
German honorific usage there is no literal equivalent of the English "Sir."
But the attachment of the honorific "von," in the absence of any title (Such as
Prinz, Graf, Markgraf, Baron, etc.) does indicate a member of the petty
nobility.
D.C.KOH
Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> This is not quite right. "von" literally "from" and normally follows
> the rank e.g. Graf Von Spee etc. Other titles are Freiherr (baron)
>
I know 'von' means 'from'. But 'von' at least under Willy 2 was also an
honorific or part of a title as such isn't it? Because IIRC, Hipper was
apparently given his 'von' as a gong for his services at Jutland,
whereas Scheer refused his gong or something like that, and so never had
a 'von' prefix to his name.
Dan
Andy Gural
> How about Lettow-Vorbeck, WWI commander in German East Africa? He led
> British and South African forces a merry chase until several weeks
> *after* the Armistice - gained the respect of allies and foes alike -
> supported his askaris (native soldiers) in their attempts to get
> pensions from the German govt. after WWI (at least that's the story I
> recall reading once - if true, it probably puts him several
> generations ahead of his countrymen in terms of race relations) - and
> although a staunch conservative, was anti-Nazi.
Hi:
Funny how Von Lettow-Vorbeck seems to have vanished into history. He
was approached by the allies in 44 and asked if he wouldnšt mind leading
the first post-Nazi government.
He said no.
The officer class, Von Lettow-Vorbeck related, had disgraced itself.
An interesting man. For those who are interested, The Ghosts of Africa
is a fictionalized account of his career in Africa. It is written by
William Stephanson, the same fellow who wrote A Man Called Intrepid.
Andy
--
I charge $5,000 for reviewing & deleting unsolicited commercial
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Karsten Paczkowski
On 02 Mar 98 Darrell wrote to
"Correct pronunciation of "Prinz Eugen" and "Gneisenau"?" the
following lines:
DH>Phonetically speaking...is it: "OYgen", OYjen", "Ugeen"...?
^^^^^
This is pretty close.
For the English-speaking people I would write it like "OYgain"
though.
DH>Is the "G" in GNEISENAU" silent?
No.
Kind regards,
Karsten
--
"Nothing is easier than being busy -
and nothing more difficult than being effective..."
(R. Alec Mackenzie)
>>> PGP-KEY available on request <<<
Karsten Paczkowski
On 05 Mar 98 Chris wrote to
"Re: Correct pronunciation of "Prinz Eugen" and "Gneisenau"?" the
following lines:
CT>Are you sure about the G not being silent. I remember them saying
CT>Neisenau
Yes, I am sure. And I am German, so trust me. :)
Peter H. Granzeau
How about "von und zu"?
George F. Hardy
>How about "von und zu"?
"Von und zu" is an indication that the person does not
hold fealty to another noble, but is free from such
obligations.
GFH
Christoph Schlegel
Thomas Buell schrieb in Nachricht
<6e6j23$j34$1...@methusalix.rz.tu-clausthal.de>...
>D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>[snip snip snip]
>
>It's in late September. But the rival ship-builder is known for making
>very effective self-destruction devices.
[snip]
>Let's see what happens to Stealth-Schröder.
Yes, and let's also not fotget about the recently "upgraded" FGS Fischer.
The upgrades have been referred to as Operation OUTOFNATO and Operation
5DMPERLITRE...
best regards,
Christoph
Peter H. Granzeau
On 15 Mar 98 15:41:37 GMT, geo...@mail.rlc.net (George F. Hardy)
wrote:
>>How about "von und zu"?
>
>"Von und zu" is an indication that the person does not
>hold fealty to another noble, but is free from such
>obligations.
Thank you. I had always wondered (and the use of the term to describe
Von der Tann in another thread reminded me to ask).
Dave Powell
Andy Gural wrote in message ...
>
>> How about Lettow-Vorbeck, WWI commander in German East Africa? He led
>> British and South African forces a merry chase until several weeks
>> *after* the Armistice - gained the respect of allies and foes alike -
>> supported his askaris (native soldiers) in their attempts to get
>> pensions from the German govt. after WWI (at least that's the story I
>> recall reading once - if true, it probably puts him several
>> generations ahead of his countrymen in terms of race relations) - and
>> although a staunch conservative, was anti-Nazi.
You know.. the Germans tried sending a Zeppelin to contact him, from Europe
to Africa.. but they had to turn back (Over the Sahara IIRC), so couldn't
get to him.. yeah.. he had a rep for really getting along with the African
troops... which put him one up on more than a few of his contemporaries..
and not all of them were German, for sure. He was a hell of a commander and
field tactician, not to mention a great guerilla fighter in his own right.
Maybe a scout vehicle/AFV or a scout chopper could bear his name. (Or one of
the future AIP subs.)
>
> Hi:
> Funny how Von Lettow-Vorbeck seems to have vanished into history. He
>was approached by the allies in 44 and asked if he wouldnšt mind leading
>the first post-Nazi government.
> He said no.
> The officer class, Von Lettow-Vorbeck related, had disgraced itself.
Dang... shades of Rommel. Seeing the Holocaust must have hurt him deeply...
> An interesting man. For those who are interested, The Ghosts of Africa
>is a fictionalized account of his career in Africa. It is written by
>William Stephanson, the same fellow who wrote A Man Called Intrepid.
> Andy
Sounds like a first class read....
>
Dave Powell David_Po...@msn.com
>--
>I charge $5,000 for reviewing & deleting unsolicited commercial
>electronic mail. Commercial electronic mail to my e-mail
>address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages
>to UseNet neither grants consent to receiving nor is intended to
>solicit commercial e-mail. All other e-mail is welcome. Remove
>the phrase '**turnnip**' from the name.
Ditto, hold the turnnip.
Dave Powell
Owe Jessen wrote in message <350d1a0d...@news.uni-hildesheim.de>...
>On 11 Mar 1998 14:22:59 GMT, Thomas...@heim1.tu-clausthal.de
>(Thomas Buell) wrote:
>
>>D.C.KOH (RA6...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk) wrote:
>>: > isn't used, though maybe they want a bigger ship, like a CG, for that
>>: > name... why not one named for Helmut Kohl?
>>(...)
>>: Naming a ship for Fatso? Now that'll be a laff...
>>
>>Nice name for an old BB: Large, beamy vessel. Has been of some use back
>> Thomas
>
>LMAO
>Seen in this context, it really is a shame there wont ever be a German
>BB again.
Maybe a US/UK/German BBGN collaboration.. USS Maine, South Carolina, Oregon
and Kentucky; HMS Warspite and Nelson, and for Germany, Bismarck and Von Der
Tann.
D.C.KOH
in environmentally-friendly ozone/carbon free emissions technology. Tho
solar-powered or handraulic, I don't know. But I can imagine drumbeats
and 'Ramming Speed!'
Still in the Sunday Times there are remarks that there there might be
yet another possible 'own goal' in the shipyard of the above vessel...
Dan
Barry Lake
Thanks, all for adding something here, but nobody answered the question
whether it is a faux pas to use von with the rank as I read somewhere it
was. That is , Admiral Graf Spee is right , von Spee is right, but Graf
von Spee is wrong? Thanks, Barry
Barry Lake
Got something here from Thomas Fuller, with his permission. Apparently, my
source was wrong and its ok to say Graf von Spee, so now I won't step on
my crank when next presented at the new German court to be created?! on the
100th anniversary of the end of the last one, along with the return of the
Romanov's farther east. Ok from Mr Fuller: In German 'von'
means from and is one of several family name prefixes denoting noble
status. One also finds 'von und zu' and 'auf dem' or 'auf der'. During
Imperial Germany and pre 1870 German states, titles of nobility were
granted as they were and are in Britain today. There were essentially two
types of nobility, the heriditary, landed nobility and a lesser nobility
somewhat analogous to a British knighthood.
In Prussia, there was also the Junker class of military and civil servants
who were entitled to add 'von' to their names as a reward for service to
the Prussian King. Once granted, the right had to be maintained by at
least one member of each generation entering military or governmental
service.
Titled nobility would have a supplementary title such as Ritter (knight),
Freiherr (baron), Markgraf (margrave), Graf (count), Landgraf (landgrave),
Prinz, (prince), etc. The proper way of writing a name was to use 1.
Military title if present, First name, title, prefix (usually von), and
family name. Thus one could have Vizeadmiral Maximillan Graf von Spee,
Rittmeister Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen, Kunegunde Freiherrin von
Richthofen
(Manfred's mother), Friedrich Wilhelm Kronprinz von Hohenzollern, or Otto
Fuerst von und zu Bismarck, etc.
In naming a ship after a person with a title, the accepted way was to
leave the von out of the name for the sake of brevity and to make sure that
one knew one was referring to a ship rather than a person, hence Admiral
Graf Spee, Admiral Hipper, Graf Zeppilin, etc.. There were some
exceptions to naming ships though: von der Tann, for instance. It also
seems that during the Imperial period, titles were sometimes included,
i.e., Koenigin Louise, Kronprinz Wilhelm, Fuerst Bismarck, etc. Likewise,
ships named after famous generals or leaders frequently did not have their
rank or title--Goeben, Mackensen, Roon, Yorck, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau,
Seydlitz. All in all, the German method of naming ships after people was
somewhat
haphazard from one period or regime to the next. In WW II, ships named
after naval figures were usually preceeded by 'Admiral', but not in the
case of Tirpitz.
Cheers,
Tom
Barry Lake
Ashamed to say I made an error in my German--the word for Baroness is
Freifrau (or Freiin), not Freiherrin. That will teach me not to
figuratively open my mouth until I double check things! So Richthofen's
mother's name and title would have been Kunegunde Freifrau von Richthofen.
Cheers,
Tom