Match bearing and shoot
Steffen Lassahn
In sevearl books uncluding Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy i read a
phrase i didn't quite understand:
If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
alignment of the sub relative to the target?
Hope anybody could help, Steffen
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Steffen Lassahn s...@carus.de (work) |
| Tel. +49 (0)40 250 72 98 s...@mail.hh.provi.de (home) |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Thank God I am an atheist! |
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Paul F Austin
>From: s...@mail.hh.provi.de (Steffen Lassahn)
>Subject: Match bearing and shoot
>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 15:44:08 GMT
>Hi!
>In sevearl books uncluding Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy i read a
>phrase i didn't quite understand:
>If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
>torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
>What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
>alignment of the sub relative to the target?
It's a holdover from the days of dumb torpedos with only a gyroscope stable
element from "guidance". The boat didn't have to be aligned with the target
but prior to firing, the bearing to target had to be set in the torpedo. I'm
sure Tim or Paul will have more to say on the subject.
Paul Beaudoin
>In sevearl books uncluding Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy i read a
>phrase i didn't quite understand:
>If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
>torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
>What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
>alignment of the sub relative to the target?
I believe that phrase refered, as you suspect, to the fact that
torpedoes, when launched, are set to follow a specific course or
heading. You have probably also heard of something called a "spread"
of torpedoes. When a submarine commander has time and stealth on his
side, he can carefully launch several torpedoes at his target. After
estimating the course and speed of his target, he will lauch his
"fish", each at a slightly different bearing. A "spread". In this
way, he hopes at least one of them will hit the target. The exact
bearing for each torpedo to follow is calculated and set for each
individual torpedo. When the submarine commander does not have time,
when he has two second to shoot and then go for deep water or die, he
has to act quickly. It this case, there is no time to calculate the
target's course and speed, but the torpedo's bearing must still be
entered before it is launched. "Match bearing and shoot" means to set
the torpedo's bearing to where the periscope is looking right now and
fire it. Shooting from the hip, at it were.
All this is WW II submarine tactics, mind you, but I don't think the
phrase "Match bearings and shoot" has changed meaning... If I am
wrong about that, somebody straighten me out!
Paul Beaudoin
prb...@a.crl.com
St. Louis, Missouri
AMI Inter
fire control computer to the bearing of the target as seen from the
periscope.
Guy Stitt
amii...@aol.com
Ron Miller
: bearing. If they matched the order "Fire XX" was given. Perhaps if the
: solution was bad (no match) the TDC would be forced to the target bearing
: but the PK for that scenario would be low, and I think that the CO would
: probably say "Match Bearing" and then "Fire XX" after the gyro angle was
: adjusted. I dont specifically remember hearing "match bearing and shoot"
: but all of my experience (Helm during battle stations Torpedo) was with MK 14
: torpedoes. Forcing a match with a bad solution with a homing torpedo would
: be more viable.
I operated an analog Attack Director when at Battlestations. Matching
the bearing at that station was intended to zero any accumulated bearing
error between sonar data and the AD's predicted solution before sending
the torpedo on its way. This bearing error was the indication to the AD
operator whether his solution was tracking or not. I'm sure the
bitweenies using the Mk117 AD don't know what I'm talking about but
operating the analog AD was a pretty good game :-)
: Trivia - When is the word "Fire" used on submarines?
1. When something is burning.
2. When the CO is reaming you a new oversized one (again).
Ron Miller
UCCS Safety & Risk Management
> In sevearl books uncluding Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy i read a
> phrase i didn't quite understand:
> If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
> torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
> What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
> alignment of the sub relative to the target?
>
This is simply the sonar equivalant of "bearing, mark" used for the
periscope. The sonar bearing of the target is "matched" in the fire
control system as the current line of sight.
R. O'Keefe
>In article <4copo5$8...@popcorn.hamburg.pop.de> s...@mail.hh.provi.de (Steffen Lassahn) writes:
>>From: s...@mail.hh.provi.de (Steffen Lassahn)
>>Subject: Match bearing and shoot
>>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 15:44:08 GMT
>
>>Hi!
>
>>phrase i didn't quite understand:
>>If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
>>torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
>>What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
>>alignment of the sub relative to the target?
>
>element from "guidance". The boat didn't have to be aligned with the target
>but prior to firing, the bearing to target had to be set in the torpedo. I'm
>sure Tim or Paul will have more to say on the subject.
I remember the order "Final bearing and shoot". It was given before raising the
'scope the last time. The QM would say the bearing on the COs "mark" and the
TDC operator would say "Matches" if the scope bearing matched the TDC predicted
bearing. If they matched the order "Fire XX" was given. Perhaps if the
solution was bad (no match) the TDC would be forced to the target bearing
but the PK for that scenario would be low, and I think that the CO would
probably say "Match Bearing" and then "Fire XX" after the gyro angle was
adjusted. I dont specifically remember hearing "match bearing and shoot"
but all of my experience (Helm during battle stations Torpedo) was with MK 14
torpedoes. Forcing a match with a bad solution with a homing torpedo would
be more viable.
Trivia - When is the word "Fire" used on submarines?
Dick OKeefe
>
>
Ron Miller
: Mr. Miller wrote another piece of naval trivia,
: >2. When the CO is reaming you a new oversized one (again).
: Also known as non-consentual anal sex (technically, a violation of
: the UCMJ)
Lest anyone take this too literally, Mr. McFeely is using the vernacular
for something known in the most polite of circles as "verbally counselling
a subordinate."
Physical counseling actually didn't occur but it is understandable that
seizure of the subordinate's uniform in order to slam and pin the
subordinate against an immobile bulkhead for the purpose of ensuring the
subordinate's full attention would be confused with physical abuse.
Bystanders, onlookers and overhearers would, after the counselling session,
ask the recipient (also in the vernacular) if the recipient had gone up one
O-ring size or two. These straphangers could legitimately make the joke
because their sizes had been increased many times and they were aware
that their growth was certainly not finished.
These items are symptomatic of being in the proximity of "a screamer."
Ron Miller
(Who only screamed just once when he found out that the ICmen were
practically *planning* to blow up the battery well.......)
tim_mcfeely
Or Sonar, or Radar, or ESM.
Scope's under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
tim...@usa.net
ad...@osfn.rhilinet.gov
Ray Wilson
>
> Hi!
>
> In sevearl books uncluding Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy i read a
> phrase i didn't quite understand:
> If the commanding officer of a submarine gives the command to launch a
> torpedo, his command is "Match bearing and shoot".
> What does Match bearing mean? Has that anything to do with the
> alignment of the sub relative to the target?
>
>
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Steffen Lassahn s...@carus.de (work) |
> | Tel. +49 (0)40 250 72 98 s...@mail.hh.provi.de (home) |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Thank God I am an atheist! |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Ahhhh. You need a FT or Weps type to properly answer this question. Even
though I was a ET (SINS) I'll try to answer. Hopefully I won't get flamed
too bad by the FTs.
MATCH BEARINGS AND SHOOT MASTER ONE!
To me, this meant take the "solution" (for killing Master One) that
was calculated in the Position Keeper (PK) and forward it to the Torp.
Then launch the Torp. If all went well, the weapon would run out past
it's aquisition point, go active, find a big fat Kiev, or Moskva then
Bang! sonar reports breaking up noises on the bearing of Master One...
Start flame here...
Ray
ex-boomer puke.
Paul Jonathan Adam
> It's a holdover from the days of dumb torpedos with only a gyroscope stable
> element from "guidance". The boat didn't have to be aligned with the target
> but prior to firing, the bearing to target had to be set in the torpedo. I'm
> sure Tim or Paul will have more to say on the subject.
Actually I always wondered the same thing :) I build the hardware, I've
never been on a submarine that was still in commission let alone heard
the fire control orders.
--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
Paul Jonathan Adam
> Trivia - When is the word "Fire" used on submarines?
> Dick OKeefe
1) When something is burning
2) When the captain is ordering a summary execution by firing squad :)
But not when you intend to launch a weapon.
tim_mcfeely
>1. When something is burning.
Yup, just like the word 'close' is never used. Proper terminology is 'SHUT'
i.e. SHUT the valve (or SHUT the f***ing valve, depending on the depth
of the water around your feet)
>2. When the CO is reaming you a new oversized one (again).
Also known as non-consentual anal sex (technically, a violation of
the UCMJ)
>
>
>Ron Miller
>
Scopes under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
tim_mcfeely
the digital world. Assuming that the tubes are flooded and the weapons
powered up (these two things take 45 or so seconds minimum, 2 minutes
is a better figure, mostly to allow the gyro in the unit to spin up). Lastly
a target must be designated. Usually MASTER-1 (unless of course you
are unlucky enough to have more than one target) (oops, sorry some
might consider more than 1 skimmer target lucky)
After the decision is made to launch, the following things occur (in a brief
list. There are many more things that happen, some classified):
FIRING POINT PROCEDURES TUBE X AT MASTER-1 (Command
comes from the Approach Officer if at battlestations or OOD if a snapshot)
Tells the Fire Control party and the Torpedo Room party that launch is
imminent. The Torpedo Room party ensures the designated tube is
‘ready in all respects’ (flooded, equalized, outer doors open, weapon
power on, weapon ready light lit, etc). Fire Control ensures they have a
solution set, weapon search mode set, solution does not violate ACR/range
settings, and most importantly they have the correct tube selected on the
Firing Console. Ship Control party, mainly the Chief of the Watch, prepares to
compensate for the loss of the unit’s weight and to supply more water to the
WRT (water round torpedo) tanks and drain the Aux tanks of the added water
from draining the tube. The nukes drink coffee!!!! Also any problems are
announced and dealt with or another tube is selected.
Variation:
FIRING POINT PROCEDURES TUBE X and X TUBE X FIRST
(must be a horizonal launch, inotherwords tubes 1 or 3 and tubes 2
or 4. Tubes are arranged 1,3 starboard side-2,4 port side. Launch
must have one from each side). Same as above, except both tubes
are set up. Launches are staggered by several seconds.
SAFETIES SET (exercise weapons on an instrumented range only) A senior
officer not involved with the approach and firing solution (usually the XO)
verifies that range safety procedures are not violated. He has the authority
in this capacity to override the Approach Officer/OOD and prevent a launch.
SOLUTION(S) SET (Comes from Fire Control when they have a solution
on the designated target) This is somewhat self-explanatory.
SHOOT TUBE X (note the word shoot, vice fire) (Comes from the
Approach Officer/OOD when they are satisfied above steps have been
preformed correctly and the target meets ROE) At this point, several things
happen. Fire Control moves the weapons launch handle to the STANDBY
position. The Torpedo Room does not get the SHOOT command (though
a good FT will tell you he is ‘shooting tube X’). The standby light
does light in the Torpedo Room. After the STANDBY light
lights in Control, Fire Control moves the weapons launch handle to the
FIRE (I know its contradictory) position. At this point the tube shoots.
The Torpedo Room is standing by to launch the weapon either electrically
or manually if the tube doesn’t shoot from the Fire Control command.
If the launch is a horizonal salvo the process is repeated. It only takes as long
as Fire Control can select the second tube, and repeat the STANDBY/FIRE
procedure, about 6-7 seconds. When the handle is moved to the FIRE
position the system does a final data dump to the weapon. On Mk 48s
this is instantaneous because the weapon is in constant communications
with CCS Mk 1 or BSY-1(the fire control system) Harpoons and
Tomahawks are slightly different.
IMPULSE RETURN NORMAL LAUNCH (comes from the Torpedo Room
as the tube shoots) Lack of impulse return means the weapon did not receive
final targeting data (or maybe nothing at all). Lack of the normal launch means
something is majorly wrong.
This is a simplistic version. Actually launches have constant chatter on the sound
powered phones, constant attention to consoles and screens, a running manual
plot on various things, a well trained crew, and most importantly several individuals
following set procedures to ensure nothing is missed. 'Match bearing and
shoot' is not in the unclass launch procedures, but does seem to be used
occasionally by some COs.
Scope's under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
tim_mcfeely
> TimMcFeely wrote:
> : Mr. Miller wrote another piece of naval trivia,
>
> : >2. When the CO is reaming you a new oversized one (again).
>
> : Also known as non-consentual anal sex (technically, a violation of
> : the UCMJ)
>
> for something known in the most polite of circles as "verbally counselling
> a subordinate."
>
> Physical counseling actually didn't occur but it is understandable that
> seizure of the subordinate's uniform in order to slam and pin the
> subordinate against an immobile bulkhead for the purpose of ensuring the
> subordinate's full attention would be confused with physical abuse.
>
> Bystanders, onlookers and overhearers would, after the counselling session,
> ask the recipient (also in the vernacular) if the recipient had gone up one
> O-ring size or two. These straphangers could legitimately make the joke
> because their sizes had been increased many times and they were aware
> that their growth was certainly not finished.
>
> These items are symptomatic of being in the proximity of "a screamer."
>
>
> Ron Miller
> (Who only screamed just once when he found out that the ICmen were
> practically *planning* to blow up the battery well.......
>>>>
(remember, this is a procedure and not a checklist. See below.)
1. Find offending subordinate (preferably in a high visibility area) _______
2. Temporarily stow subordinate for sea (i.e. hang, tape, pin, staple,
secure, strap, or other approved methods) _______
3. Apply verbal lambasting, using necessary pokes, prods, kicks,
slaps, gestures, threats, attitude adjustments, punches, bites,
scatches, more threats, and other approved methods _______
4. If subordinate is qualified Submarines skip to step 5.
Take qual card from subordinate ______
Initial compartment walkthroughs ______
Initial Officer/LPO walkthrough (if applicable) ______
Hand qual card back to subordinate _______
5. Respond to on-lookers with the statement ‘What the f*** are you
looking at’ ______
6. Repeat step 3 and then move to step 7 ______
7. Walk away in disgust, stopping several times to act like
you are returning ______
8. Scream one last obscenity ______
9. If you are not an Officer skip to step 10
Walk upright ______
Inform CO something is broken ______
Write CASREP ______
Pray ______
10. Rearrange Watch schedule to screw subordinate ______
A procedure is a suggested order in which to accomplish things. Items
may be completed in any order as long as they are all completed. A checklist
requires reader/worker routine, which means that as each step is read by
a designated reader (who does nothing else) a worker performs the step
and a second worker verifies the step was done correctly. The above could
be real harsh if it was a checklist!!!!!
Scope's under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed, but not a screamer. Just a grunter!!
tim...@usa.net
ad...@osfn.rhilinet.gov
Ron Miller
: Ron Miller (r...@fc.hp.com) wrote:
: : Lest anyone take this too literally, Mr. McFeely is using the vernacular
: : for something known in the most polite of circles as "verbally counselling
: : a subordinate."
: Nice job, Ron. On my ship, we referred to it as "getting some oh-five
: bone."
You know guys, maybe we should just keep this stuff to ourselves.
Otherwise the recruiters won't make their quota and the Prez will have
to call us back to active service to make up the difference.
<<< Liberals please avert your eyes. This may offend you. >>>
There's nothing so eye-opening in your life as realizing when you're
being counselled in this manner that yes, you DO have to take it.
<<< OK Liberals, you can resume reading >>>>
I consider it a very rare privilege to hear that several months after my
Superior's rotation, a shipmate witnessed said superior on the receiving
end of identical verbal counselling at the hands of the Volkswagen
dealership Service Manager. The uppity civilian decided that no, he
DIDN'T have to take that kind of treatment from this particular
soon-to-be-ex-customer and replied in kind.
Keeping my own counsel for now,
Ron Miller
Jeff Crowell
: Lest anyone take this too literally, Mr. McFeely is using the vernacular
: for something known in the most polite of circles as "verbally counselling
: a subordinate."
ROTFL
Nice job, Ron. On my ship, we referred to it as "getting some oh-five
bone."
Jeff
Incoming fire has the right of way.
Murphy's Laws of Combat
Ron Miller
: Ok, why can't you say 'close'? Because it's a helm order, as in 'close
: with the target'?
: --
: saun...@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar.
Because on a noisy interphone circuit it sounds like "blow" as in
"blow main ballast".
'close with the target' is not a helm order. Helm is 'left 10 degrees rudder'
or bell changes.
'close with the target' might be the words the CO uses to the OOD during
a practice approach.
Ron Miller
R. O'Keefe
Things have really changed; the only familiar thing I see is that the
diesel boats also had a WRT Tank. The commands were something like:
"Make ready tubes X-Y"
"Open the outer doors on tubes X-Y"
Banter in the Conning tower about entering data and getting a solution.
"Bearing, Mark; Range, Mark; (read stadimeter), Down Scope, Angle on the bow
Port/Stbd XXX"
"Solution Satisfactory"
"Final Bearing and shoot"
"Standby X"
Get last look and check solution
"FIRE X" - firing keys in Conn and Torpedo room pressed
The actual command to launch a torpedo in the diesel days was the other
time "Fire" was used on a submarine. I found this out early in my mess
cooking tour when I went to the Control Room and asked the Diving Officer
for "permission to fire the garbage ejector". The COB, who was COW at the
time (TMC Tom Pierce, who sailed on Seahorse with Slade Cutter during WW II)
immediately let me know about the only two (three?) uses of the word "Fire"
on a submarine, kind of like Ron described.
Dick OKeefe
tim_mcfeely
> Ok, why can't you say 'close'? Because it's a helm order, as in 'close
> with the target'?
>
> --
> saun...@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar.
>
>>>>
is much more emphatic and understandable on busy phone circuits and
in noisy compartments when wearing breathing devices. Too many other
words sound the same. Hose, blows, etc.
Also, the helm, unless he is damn good, usually has no clue where the target
is. Most helmsmen/planesmen are non-quals that are fairly new onboard.
They usually have just grasped the concept of turning right appears to
make the gyro repeater go left and vice versa. Things like true/relative
bearings, angle on the bow, lead/lag angle of sight are well beyond their
capabilities. The ability to pay attention to sonar-fire control conversations
and manage to maintain course, all the time trying to distinguish the OOD’s
voice in case he orders a course change is too difficult. Most helmsmen are
happy just to keep the boat on course, thusly avoiding a crack in the back
of the head by the ever vigilant Diving Officer (who is almost never an officer
and almost always some crusty old chief standing four section watch and
had 16 hours sleep and a hot shower before watch).
Scope's under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
Martin Hill
>
>Mr. Miller wrote another piece of naval trivia,
>>
>>1. When something is burning.
>
>Yup, just like the word 'close' is never used. Proper terminology is
'SHUT'
>i.e. SHUT the valve (or SHUT the f***ing valve, depending on the depth
>of the water around your feet)
>
>
>Also known as non-consentual anal sex (technically, a violation of
>the UCMJ)
>
>>
>>
>>
>Scopes under...
>Tim McFeely
>ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
>
I've got to know...If the word 'Fire' is only used aboard a sub to mean
smoke and flames, what is the command to launch a torpedo... or a
missile (VLS or tube)?
What about all those great movies with the skipper yelling "Fire One!"?
From what you bubbleheads <g> apparently call a "skimmer."
MH
Brian Moum
>I've got to know...If the word 'Fire' is only used aboard a sub to mean
>smoke and flames, what is the command to launch a torpedo... or a
>missile (VLS or tube)?
>
>What about all those great movies with the skipper yelling "Fire One!"?
>
>From what you bubbleheads <g> apparently call a "skimmer."
>
>MH
From another skimmer (I know, we are crawling out of the woodwork):
The command is 'Shoot.' BTW: every surface ship I've been on uses the same terms.
But, they have all been nucs, so maybe that's why we are so squared away......
One of the best orders I ever heard: In the engineroom, during a drill set, with monitors
around:
EWS to MM: Shut that F***ing valve !
(after MM went to wrong one)
EWS: No, Sh**head, the other F***ing valve !
Yes, they got hit hard for 'lack of clear orders, not using correct terminology, etc' but won
points for comic relief.....
Brian
Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac?
He kept himself awake at night wondering if indeed there was a DOG.
Jim Nowotarski
>From: Tim McFeely
>Subject: Re: Match bearing and shoot
>Date: 11 Jan 1996 15:12:59 GMT
<snip>
>FIRING POINT PROCEDURES TUBE X and X TUBE X FIRST
>(must be a horizonal launch, inotherwords tubes 1 or 3 and tubes 2
>or 4. Tubes are arranged 1,3 starboard side-2,4 port side. Launch
>must have one from each side). Same as above, except both tubes
>are set up. Launches are staggered by several seconds.
I'm curious. Why must the tubes be in the pairing given?
Is it because there is some shared system/hardware/whatever between the tubes
on the same side?
>Scope's under...
>Tim McFeely
>ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
>tim...@usa.net
>ad...@osfn.rhilinet.gov
Jim Nowotarski
--------------------
usual disclaimers...
Mark G. Havener
r...@fc.hp.com (Ron Miller) writes:
> There's nothing so eye-opening in your life as realizing when you're
> being counselled in this manner that yes, you DO have to take it.
You didn't _have_ to take it, as long as you didn't mind geeting shot
out of a torpedo tube....... ;)
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark G. Havener | "If God had intended for Man to go
(Just so you know | about naked, we would have been born
it's not my wife) | withoug clothes on."
PGP Key fingerprint = | "I have a 4 year degree from
94 DA 8A 16 E4 8F 4F 6A | Psychotic State."
4B 94 EA 0F 9F 8E 39 3B |
Geoff Miller
In article <4d39dr$o...@shiva.usa.net> Tim McFeely writes:
> Tubes are arranged 1,3 starboard side-2,4 port side.
They're numbered from right to left?
When I served on a Coast Guard cutter before getting into aviation,
I was surprised to learn that the engines were numbered from right
to left, with engine #1 being to starboard -- the opposite of the
tradition with airplanes. According to what I've read, that's
apparently the way many items aboard ships, from engines to torpedo
tubes to boats, are numbered.
That seems strange and counterintuitive to me, and not just because
I'm an airdale. After all, we read and write from left to right, so
it would be more natural to number things airplane-style. Does anyone
know how this tradition of "backwards" numbering got started in the
nautical world?
Geoff
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller + + + + + + + + Mountain View
geo...@netcom.com + DoD #0996 + California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Dave Whittaker
>
>> Tubes are arranged 1,3 starboard side-2,4 port side.
>
>
>They're numbered from right to left?
>
>When I served on a Coast Guard cutter before getting into aviation,
>I was surprised to learn that the engines were numbered from right
>to left, with engine #1 being to starboard -- the opposite of the
>tradition with airplanes. According to what I've read, that's
>apparently the way many items aboard ships, from engines to torpedo
>tubes to boats, are numbered.
>
>That seems strange and counterintuitive to me, and not just because
>I'm an airdale. After all, we read and write from left to right, so
>it would be more natural to number things airplane-style. Does anyone
>know how this tradition of "backwards" numbering got started in the
>nautical world?
>
Hehehe. They're not numbered from right to left, they follow a
standard in naval numbering based on which side of the ship they're on. Almost
all equipment is numbered even to port, odd to starboard. In other words, the
NR1 Main Engine is the one to starboard, and the NR2 Main Engine is the one to
port. Torpedo tubes are numbered the same way. 1 & 3 to starboard, 2 & 4 to
port.
This convention is also followed in space designations. The space
2-101-2-Q would be a (2) space on the second deck, (101) at frame 101, (2)
first space to port of centerline at that frame, (Q) designated as a general
purpose space (probably an office). The space 2-101-1-A would be the first
space to starboard of the centerline at frame 101, and is a storeroom (A).
Hope this clears it up.
How did they decide starboard was odd, port was even? Your guess is as
good as mine, but a flip of the coin seems as good a way as any. Actually, the
space numbering system I described wasn't placed in use until March 1949.
Prior to then, ships were split into 3 sections (A, B & C, I believe) and the
compartments were referenced in much the same way, but within their respective
sections.
Regards,
Dave
jim farrell
> That seems strange and counterintuitive to me, and not just because
> I'm an airdale. After all, we read and write from left to right, so
> it would be more natural to number things airplane-style. Does anyone
> know how this tradition of "backwards" numbering got started in the
> nautical world?
Geoff:
Don't know how it all got started, but suggest strongly that looking for
logic in Navy nomenclature will rapidly reduce your sanity level. FWIW,
naval ships use even number for everything on the port side, odd for
starboard. Also, red is the portside color, green starboard. Same for
navigation aids as long as you are departing harbor -- red channel bouys
to port, hence mnemonic "red right returning." Except in some "western"
river where the system of bouyage is not quite the same, or wasn't a few
decades ago, anyway. Except for ... (flame away, mates)...
73s Jim
Tom Herman
snip
>SHOOT TUBE X (note the word shoot, vice fire)
snip
In the RN we still say FIRE to fire a weapon - the control which
passes the order to the weapon is known as the "Fire push". The
preliminary order is invariably "Standby to fire". To date we have not
confused firing a weapon with a fire in the boat. Of interest is the
fact that we do not say torpedo but rather weapon. The term torpedo
is reserved for something coming towards us.i.e being fired at us.
With regards the discussion concerning "Match Bearing" from Tom
Clancy's book - I agree that what he is getting at is the need to
update the firing bearing from the holding sensor immediately prior to
discharge. This achieved by "cutting" a bearing into the Fire Control
equipment from the holding sensor.
There is however another equally vital drill when firing straight
running weapons. It is necessary to have an accurate estimate of the
targets solution in order to ensure a hit. The key known factor (in
passive attacks) is Bearing Bate thus the solution bearing rate must
match exactly the target bearing rate. Most servo mechanical (i.e. old
fashioned) FC equipments allowed this to be done simply and quickly.
Prior to discharge it therefore makes sense to compare then match
bearing rates. In the RN the order to do this was "Compare Bearing
Rates, Match for Course or Speed or Range".
I wonder if Tom Clancy had heard this during his frequent discussions
with RN submariners or if the USN had a similar drill.
Tom Herman
W.E. Nichols
+ How did they decide starboard was odd, port was even? Your guess is as
+good as mine, but a flip of the coin seems as good a way as any. Actually, the
+space numbering system I described wasn't placed in use until March 1949.
+Prior to then, ships were split into 3 sections (A, B & C, I believe) and the
+compartments were referenced in much the same way, but within their respective
+sections.
When they split the ship into three sections, the numbering system was quite
different. B-205-lL This designated a compartment in the "B" section;
second deck; compartment 05; starboard side; living space. About the only
thing that stayed the same was the use of numbers to designate port and
starboard. The "A" section usually extended from the bow to the forward
bulkhead of the engineering space. "B" section was everything to the aft
bulkhead of the engineering spaces and the "C" section was everything aft.
A good DCA would know that. <GGGG>
Nick
W.E. Nichols Let's go catch Willy and make
w...@infi.net him do tricks.
Jerry Williamson
In article <4d0k44$4...@nntpa.cb.att.com>, "R. O'Keefe" <r...@aluxs.att.com>
writes:
>From: "R. O'Keefe" <r...@aluxs.att.com>
>Newsgroups: sci.military.naval
>Subject: Re: Match bearing and shoot
>
>pau...@harris.com (Paul F Austin) wrote:
>>In article <4copo5$8...@popcorn.hamburg.pop.de> s...@mail.hh.provi.de
>(Steffen Lassahn) writes:
>>>From: s...@mail.hh.provi.de (Steffen Lassahn)
>>>Subject: Match bearing and shoot
>>>Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 15:44:08 GMT
>
SNIp----------------------------------------------
>Trivia - When is the word "Fire" used on submarines?
>
>>
When you have spontanious oxidization in the people tube !!!
-- (AKA a FIRE!!!)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jerry Williamson + No hackers don't cut people up
Department of Defence + and kill them,... SOMETIMES IT'S
Canberra Australia + MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT!!
Arved Sandstrom
>
[ stuff removed ]
> This convention is also followed in space designations. The space
>2-101-2-Q would be a (2) space on the second deck, (101) at frame 101, (2)
>first space to port of centerline at that frame, (Q) designated as a general
>purpose space (probably an office). The space 2-101-1-A would be the first
>space to starboard of the centerline at frame 101, and is a storeroom (A).
>Hope this clears it up.
>
> Dave
>
Mastering this terminology is a rare and mysterious art for non-swabs
(read embarked Marines). Actually, to quote G. Bush, most Marines faced
with the space designation system "just don't get it", and rely on
memory to figure out how to get from important point A to important
point B.
Having spent quality time on practically every class of gator, I don't
think I ever knew the actual designation for any space except for my
berthing area.
I sincerely hope that DC sections murmur ship design in their sleep,
though.
--
Arved H. Sandstro"m | YISDER ZOMENIMOR
Physical Oceanography Group | ORZIZZAZIZ
Dept.of Physics, Memorial Univ. of NFLD | ZANZERIZ
asnd...@crosby.physics.mun.ca | ORZIZ
Steve Atkatz
only one, meaning. In addition each command has as far as
possible unique and distinctive phonetics. The only multi-meanng
word used frequently on submarines is the all purpose "F" word of
which entire pages of different definitions and usages have
previously been posted.
DBF,
--
A to Z
If in trouble, if in doubt
Run in circles, scream and shout
Andrew Toppan
The odd/even port/stardboard thing can lead to some odd results
when translated to conventional fore-aft increasing numerical order.
Fer example, take the Salem. The turrets are #1, #2, #3 fore-to-aft,
as might be expected. Are the engine rooms numbered #1 through #4
fore-to-aft? Of course not. The engine rooms are (logically) numbered
to match the shafts they serve. The shafts are numbered in standard
sequence--#1 outboard starboard, #3 inboard starboard, #2 outboard
port, #4 inboard port. This produces an arrangement with #1 engine
room forward, #2 engine room behind that, followed #4, with #3 all
the way aft. It does play with one's mind a bit...
Oh...all those references to "engine rooms" should be "machinery rooms",
since Salem has combined boiler/engine rooms....oops...
--
Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- el...@confusion.net
Railroads, Ships and Aircraft Homepage -- http://www.wpi.edu/~elmer/
"I am Pentium of Borg. Arithmetic is irrelevant. Prepare to be approximated."
DONALD L. AYRTON
> I always consider it this way:
>
> Starboard is a contraction for Steer Board. In the old days the steer
> board was on the right hand side of the ship. The Captain operated the
> steer board, and the right hand side of the ship therefore is predominant.
Eric Partridge's "Origins: A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English"
agrees. STEER (2) (para. 2): Old English "stoer", rudder, has the compounds
"steoresmann," man of the rudder, whence "steersman," and "steorbord," the
steering side, whence Middle English "sterbord," and English "Starboard."
Partridge devotes several pages to the various relatives of "port," from the
word meaning "harbour" to "importunity" and "transportation," but gives no
guess has to how it came to be the word for the left side of a boat, other than
its being derived from Latin "portus," harbour (originally, a mountain pass and
a gate, basically, a passage.)
W.E. Nichols
snip
+ In fact it's traditional in naval engineering for elevation views of
+ships to be drawn looking at the right hand, starboard, side (with the
+pointy end to the right).
Or could this also be the result of the fact that it has always been the
practice to moor starboard side too. Therefore giving everyone the same
sheet of music.
Nick
W.E. Nichols Do not attempt to teach a pig to sing.
w...@infi.net It wastes your time and more importantly
it annoys the hell out of the pig.
Dave Whittaker
>Partridge devotes several pages to the various relatives of "port," from the
>word meaning "harbour" to "importunity" and "transportation," but gives no
>guess has to how it came to be the word for the left side of a boat, other
than
>its being derived from Latin "portus," harbour (originally, a mountain pass
and
>a gate, basically, a passage.)
Basically, the term was appropriated relatively late in nautical
history, during the late 18th or early 19th century. The term "larboard" was
used for the left side of the ship, but it was finally decided that it was too
confusing, due to its similarity to "starboard". So the term "port" was
applied to the left side of the ship. I don't remember which year this was
accomplished, but some other scholar out there may be able to come up with it.
Regards,
Dave
W.E. Nichols
snip
+Oh...all those references to "engine rooms" should be "machinery rooms",
+since Salem has combined boiler/engine rooms....oops...
You will find that on some vessels there is a further break down of the
engineering spaces. On a 27C you will have #1 Boiler Room and #1 Main
Machinery Room. There other three are named accordingly.
NIck
W.E. Nichols Do not attempt to teach a pig to sing.
w...@infi.net It wastes your time and more importantly,
Steve Atkatz
>tank, as differentiated from "Shoot"
Sorry Arved, wrong "F" word. The one all us old swabbies refer to
is the all purpose verb, adjective & adverb (F__K, or F__KING).
Arved Sandstrom
>Naval terminology has evolved where command words have one, and
>only one, meaning. In addition each command has as far as
>possible unique and distinctive phonetics. The only multi-meanng
>word used frequently on submarines is the all purpose "F" word of
>which entire pages of different definitions and usages have
>previously been posted.
>
>DBF,
>
>A to Z
> If in trouble, if in doubt
> Run in circles, scream and shout
Well, I'd agree with this, but I'd say "command phrase" rather than
"command word".
No need to worry about using the F word on a gunline or in a tank, as
differentiated from "Shoot"; if it is a fire, all personnel will know at
the same time. Besides, at the right time any word starting with F will
lead to a shot.
Only other boo-boo word I can think of is "Repeat"; _don't_ say this
when you mean "Say Again". I got so indoctrinated by this that when I
talk to friends, family, etc. now I still ask "Say Again"? Then they
look at me funny.
--
Arved H. Sandstro"m | YISDER ZOMENIMOR
Physical Oceanography Group | ORZIZZAZIZ
Dept.of Physics, Memorial Univ. of NFLD | ZANZERIZ
asnd...@crosby.physics.mun.ca | ORZIZ
Chuck Cunningham
Interesting...I had heard that the port and starboard naming came from
much older...
The Old Viking ships using a board for steering on the right side, the
STEER BOARD marked that side while the left side was put to the pier
so that the steer board wasn't damaged, thus it was the PORT side.
Who knows.
Chuck
Chuck.Cu...@HDCAFE.Riverside.Ca.US -or- Ch...@pe.net
Arved Sandstrom
>In <4dsbfp$29...@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> BFK...@prodigy.com writes:
>
>> I always consider it this way:
>>
>> Starboard is a contraction for Steer Board. In the old days the steer
>> board was on the right hand side of the ship. The Captain operated the
>> steer board, and the right hand side of the ship therefore is predominant.
>
>Eric Partridge's "Origins: A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English"
>agrees. STEER (2) (para. 2): Old English "stoer", rudder, has the compounds
>"steoresmann," man of the rudder, whence "steersman," and "steorbord," the
>steering side, whence Middle English "sterbord," and English "Starboard."
>
>word meaning "harbour" to "importunity" and "transportation," but gives no
>guess has to how it came to be the word for the left side of a boat, other than
>its being derived from Latin "portus," harbour (originally, a mountain pass and
>a gate, basically, a passage.)
>
oar) side of the ship precisely because it meant a "port" or opening.
The older terminology for port, i.e. "larboard", has the same derivation
- "ladeboard" as in loading board. It then got condensed.
Incidentally, the Captain was the overall guy-in-charge, set in practise
over the Master (the sailing expert). He certainly wasn't handling
details of navigation. And "board" meant side of ship, from Old English
"bord". Whence the original meaning of "boarding" - to approach to
touching distance. This meaning has been reclaimed in hockey, in a sense
:)
For things like this, Michael Lewis is an excellent start.
Peter Skelton
You docked with the steering oar away from the pier. Then you carried
the cargo on & off over the other side. (from the latin portare)
Portus, the latin for haven is obviously related as is porta, door. Anyone
know the latin for gandplank?
br...@ibm.net
>In <4dsbfp$29...@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> BFK...@prodigy.com writes:
>
>> I always consider it this way:
>>
>> Starboard is a contraction for Steer Board. In the old days the steer
>> board was on the right hand side of the ship. The Captain operated the
>> steer board, and the right hand side of the ship therefore is predominant.
>
>Eric Partridge's "Origins: A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English"
>agrees. STEER (2) (para. 2): Old English "stoer", rudder, has the compounds
>"steoresmann," man of the rudder, whence "steersman," and "steorbord," the
>steering side, whence Middle English "sterbord," and English "Starboard."
>
>Partridge devotes several pages to the various relatives of "port," from the
>word meaning "harbour" to "importunity" and "transportation," but gives no
>guess has to how it came to be the word for the left side of a boat, other than
>its being derived from Latin "portus," harbour (originally, a mountain pass and
>a gate, basically, a passage.)
>
>
>
steerboard that is hanging off the other side. Keep in mind that rudders mounted
on the centerline were a fairly recient invention. Port and Starboard date from a
much older time.
DONALD L. AYRTON
> In article <4e409q$f...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, asnd...@renews.physics.mun.ca (Arved Sandstrom) says:
> >>Partridge devotes several pages to the various relatives of "port," from the
> >>word meaning "harbour" to "importunity" and "transportation," but gives no
> >>guess has to how it came to be the word for the left side of a boat, other than
> >>its being derived from Latin "portus," harbour (originally, a mountain pass and
> >>a gate, basically, a passage.)
> >"Port" probably came to stand for the left (opposite to the steering
> >oar) side of the ship precisely because it meant a "port" or opening.
> >The older terminology for port, i.e. "larboard", has the same derivation
> >- "ladeboard" as in loading board. It then got condensed.
> You docked with the steering oar away from the pier. Then you carried
> the cargo on & off over the other side. (from the latin portare)
> Portus, the latin for haven is obviously related as is porta, door. Anyone
> know the latin for gandplank?
<grins> Nope, but it wouldn't look much like "gangplank" either. "plank"
comes down to us from Late Latin "plancus", flat, via Old Northern French and
Middle English ("planke"). It is probably related to the Greek "plakos", a
flat surface. "Gang" on the other hand, comes from Medieval Dutch and Danish
"gang", itself from Gothic "gaggs" (pronounced "gangs") a lane or street.
Partridge goes on to suggest a connection to Sanskrit "jangha" meaning leg or
foot. "Gangway" come directly from Old English "gangweg."
Arved Sandstrom
><grins> Nope, but it wouldn't look much like "gangplank" either. "plank"
>comes down to us from Late Latin "plancus", flat, via Old Northern French and
>Middle English ("planke"). It is probably related to the Greek "plakos", a
>flat surface. "Gang" on the other hand, comes from Medieval Dutch and Danish
>"gang", itself from Gothic "gaggs" (pronounced "gangs") a lane or street.
>Partridge goes on to suggest a connection to Sanskrit "jangha" meaning leg or
>foot. "Gangway" come directly from Old English "gangweg."
>
"gehen" - to go. "Ich bin gegangen" (I have gone), for example.
My dictionary identifies the Late Latin for "plank" as PLANCA - are you
sure PLANCUS wasn't an earlier form?
This is an interesting thread - the etymology of naval terms.
Particularly the ones in dispute :)