Effects of getting kicked out of the military - negligible
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
"devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts talking
about how important their little club is.
Let's recap:
1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in the Post Office
or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine without the VA hospitals.
3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay yourself, very do-able.
4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
5. don't get free uniforms anymore - yeah!
This "devastating" talk is just Mickey Mouse bullshit to scare the young lads.
Most importantly, one can keep honor by telling an immoral military to go fuck itself.
;-)
definition:
murder - the unjustifiable and intentional killing of people, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Arved Sandstrom
>
> Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
> "devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts talking
> about how important their little club is.
>
> Let's recap:
> 1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in the
> Post Office
Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
effect, unless you work scuzzy jobs where nobody cares about your resume
or recommendations.
Any clueful employer that sees the words "Bad Conduct" or "Dishonorable"
attached to the fact that a prospective employee got their ass fired
from a previous job is likely going to think twice about hiring the person.
The only way there is no effect is if you manage to hide the fact that
the event occurred.
> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine
> without the VA hospitals.
> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay
> yourself, very do-able.
> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
You think? Let's be accurate about this one. *You* don't give a shit.
Others that think like you do maybe don't give a shit. But tens of
millions of others would give a shit...and some of them are prospective
employers.
[ SNIP ]
AHS
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>
>>
>> Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
>> "devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts
>> talking
>> about how important their little club is.
>>
>> Let's recap:
>> 1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in the
>> Post Office
>
>
> Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
> effect,
You're very naive, son.
If a company needs someone to fill a job and you are the best, or only,
qualified to do the job, they will hire you. Period.
It's business, not politics.
It's business, about making money, not politics.
They don't give a shit about your mickey mouse outlook.
> Any clueful employer that sees the words "Bad Conduct" or "Dishonorable"
> attached to the fact that a prospective employee got their ass fired
> from a previous job is likely going to think twice about hiring the person.
>
> The only way there is no effect is if you manage to hide the fact that
> the event occurred.
Or if they don't give a shit. Or if the event was long ago. Or...sheesh you are naive.
>
>> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
>> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine
>> without the VA hospitals.
>> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay
>> yourself, very do-able.
>> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
>
>
> You think? Let's be accurate about this one. *You* don't give a shit.
> Others that think like you do maybe don't give a shit. But tens of
> millions of others would give a shit...and some of them are prospective
> employers.
Again, you are very naive.
Son, I knew one person who was kicked out and had a secret clearance while
working for a large military contract company. After the Vietnam war people
realized that the war was so wrong that refusing to participate was accepted as
an honorable decision and demand was high for engineers of any type. It was business.
This so-called "obstacle" is easy to overcome.
;-)
Kerryn Offord
> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>>
>> Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
>> "devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts
>> talking
>> about how important their little club is.
>>
>> Let's recap:
>> 1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in the
>> Post Office
>
> Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
> effect, unless you work scuzzy jobs where nobody cares about your resume
> or recommendations.
>
> Any clueful employer that sees the words "Bad Conduct" or "Dishonorable"
> attached to the fact that a prospective employee got their ass fired
> from a previous job is likely going to think twice about hiring the person.
>
> The only way there is no effect is if you manage to hide the fact that
> the event occurred.
***
Any HR specialist checking CVs to fill a job are looking for reasons to
reject each applicant.
If there is any competition for a job.. well.. Military service is a
"flag".. Failure to complete a term of enlistment is a "black flag"...
unless there is a note on type of discharge. No note giving a reasonable
reason for a discharge, and well.. "reject"
>
>> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
>> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine
>> without the VA hospitals.
***
I have a contact in the states.
He's just spent the last two months in hospital with serious heart
problems (Still in ICU).. He's ex-service..... hopefully VA is helping
non-military need good insurance to survive two months plus ICU care...
And afterwards.. well.. will your insurance company continue to cover
you (And at what price)
>> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay
>> yourself, very do-able.
***
You seen the difference in costs for GI bill versus paying your own way?
It's extra debt someone with an honorable discharge doesn't have.
>> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
>
> You think? Let's be accurate about this one. *You* don't give a shit.
> Others that think like you do maybe don't give a shit. But tens of
> millions of others would give a shit...and some of them are prospective
> employers.
>
> [ SNIP ]
> AHS
***
It would be interesting to see what someone's "friends" think when talk
of military service comes up and an dishonorable discharge comes up...
!Jones
<dce...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
>effect, unless you work scuzzy jobs where nobody cares about your resume
>or recommendations.
Usually, I'd sooner drink downstream from the shitter than to post
anywhere below *that* brainless nitwit; however...
If you'll look at all of the bloody-great stuff you received with your
discharge... all of the easy rides that you had for the rest of your
life... everyone just tripping over themselves to thank you for your
service and to let you know it was valued... yes, life is just a big,
sweet tit with the honorable discharge! ... well, you wouldn't get
any of that.
The world is full of people who find a reason to sit around feeling
sorry for themselves, crying about what a rough lot life has dealt
them... and an equal number who believe that life is what you make it.
Many of your people who have served time or other did so *because*
they're of the former lot; usually, nothing much changes, so they
continue to whine about how unfairly they have been treated.
I doubt that Watada will suffer any particular hardship... he just
wasted six years; thus, he begins his professional career that far
behind his peers. I see he's talking about law school; however; he'll
be closing in on 40 by the time he finishes. The lad should have had
a long talk with his conscience *BEFORE* he enlisted in the army!
He'd be taking his bar exams right about now had he done so... IMO,
that would have been a better "victory"!
Jones
Arved Sandstrom
> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:21:28 GMT, in alt.war.vietnam Arved Sandstrom
> <dce...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
>> effect, unless you work scuzzy jobs where nobody cares about your resume
>> or recommendations.
>
> Usually, I'd sooner drink downstream from the shitter than to post
> anywhere below *that* brainless nitwit; however...
>
> If you'll look at all of the bloody-great stuff you received with your
> discharge... all of the easy rides that you had for the rest of your
> life... everyone just tripping over themselves to thank you for your
> service and to let you know it was valued... yes, life is just a big,
> sweet tit with the honorable discharge! ... well, you wouldn't get
> any of that.
I won't disagree with any of that. Most people know that an Honorable
discharge is pretty much like a 10 or 15 or 25 year "good and loyal
service" award from a private company - nice to look at, but it's not
going to fill your bank account or get you promoted.
Point being that a BCD or DD is the equivalent of being fired from a
private company, and not for being incompetent either. It's a
misdemeanour or a felony equivalent. And a lot of BCDs and DDs get
handed out because of things that would be crimes in the "real" world -
people like "Quin" would have us believe that everyone who gets a bad
discharge from the military is a crusader for social justice. No,
they're not - most of them are nasty little criminals.
> The world is full of people who find a reason to sit around feeling
> sorry for themselves, crying about what a rough lot life has dealt
> them... and an equal number who believe that life is what you make it.
> Many of your people who have served time or other did so *because*
> they're of the former lot; usually, nothing much changes, so they
> continue to whine about how unfairly they have been treated.
>
> I doubt that Watada will suffer any particular hardship... he just
> wasted six years; thus, he begins his professional career that far
> behind his peers. I see he's talking about law school; however; he'll
> be closing in on 40 by the time he finishes. The lad should have had
> a long talk with his conscience *BEFORE* he enlisted in the army!
> He'd be taking his bar exams right about now had he done so... IMO,
> that would have been a better "victory"!
This particular individual may suffer little or no personal hardship,
true. And since he believes that he took a moral stand, he's not going
to feel like a shit because of being kicked out of the military. But the
general question was about *all* people who get BCDs or DDs, and since
most of them got those discharges as a result of crimes that would still
be crimes on civvie street, they've got nothing to be proud of. And most
of them won't be going to law school either.
"Quin" seems to think that a BCD or DD won't hurt anyone. Well, I assure
you, if that BCD or DD was for rape, or fraud, or theft, or assault and
battery, or drunk driving, that's a real crime, and it's one that
civilian employers won't turn a blind eye to.
As to the offenses like UA/AWOL or desertion, that civilians supposedly
don't understand. Well, actually civilian employers understand them
perfectly well - it's called absenteeism, and in real life that gets
your ass fired. So a civilian employer would also be interested to hear
that a prospective employee thought so little of the rules and policies
of a former place of work that they got themselves kicked out for
absenteeism. "Quin" would have you believe otherwise.
AHS
Lewis K. Zeelastik
"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote in message
news:PNWdnWFZdr6vM1rX...@supernews.com...
When I was serving in the Merchant Marine, at the end of each voyage we had
our MM book stamped with two letters for professionalism and the same for
conduct. The two letters were wither VG/VG (Very Good) - G/G (Good) or DR/DR
(Decline Report). You always got the same two letters for both
Professionalism and Conduct. Within the MM itself VG/VG was the only
acceptable report if you wanted to ship out again. G was tantamount to
TERRIBLE and DR was like signing a death warrant.
However, when applying for a shore based job, the prospective employer
didn't have a clue what these reports represented. VG and G to them was
quite acceptable when you explained that they meant Very Good and Good and
you could make up anything to explain what DR meant - eg, Deck
Responsibility, Direct Recruit, Decidely Responsible, etc.
!Jones
For the most part, a kid in the armed forces is just starting his or
her career. Even with a blem; the person can clean up his act and do
OK. Actually, except for US Civil Service, civillian HR people seldom
vet military records as they're fairly difficult to obtain. I can
make you include a transcript with your application; not so with
military records. I can't even make you show me your DD214.
People don't tend to change, though.
>"Quin" would have you believe otherwise.
Do me a favor and don't quote that moron to me, please.
Jones
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>
>> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
>>> "devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts
>>> talking
>>> about how important their little club is.
>>>
>>> Let's recap:
>>> 1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in
>>> the Post Office
>>
>>
>> Being kicked out of - fired from, if you like - *any* job has a career
>> effect, unless you work scuzzy jobs where nobody cares about your
>> resume or recommendations.
>>
>> Any clueful employer that sees the words "Bad Conduct" or
>> "Dishonorable" attached to the fact that a prospective employee got
>> their ass fired from a previous job is likely going to think twice
>> about hiring the person.
>>
>> The only way there is no effect is if you manage to hide the fact that
>> the event occurred.
>
>
> ***
> Any HR specialist checking CVs to fill a job are looking for reasons to
> reject each applicant.
HR - Human Resources...ha ha ha, boy are you fuckin naive. Son, the people
in the good jobs don't go through HR, that's for the mob competing for the
low echelon jobs, filling out hundreds of applications. For the higher jobs,
even if one did go through HR but was otherwise highly qualified, the former
military job is irrelevant, as it is a business, to make money, not politics.
Usually for the higher level jobs one *first* has an interview with the
hiring person, then *after* getting hired and starting work *then* one
fills out any paperwork HR might want.
>
> If there is any competition for a job.. well.. Military service is a
> "flag".. Failure to complete a term of enlistment is a "black flag"...
> unless there is a note on type of discharge. No note giving a reasonable
> reason for a discharge, and well.. "reject"
>
>
>>
>>> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
>>> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine
>>> without the VA hospitals.
>
>
> ***
> I have a contact in the states.
>
> He's just spent the last two months in hospital with serious heart
> problems (Still in ICU).. He's ex-service..... hopefully VA is helping
>
> non-military need good insurance to survive two months plus ICU care...
>
> And afterwards.. well.. will your insurance company continue to cover
> you (And at what price)
Son, most people don't have VA and get along just fine. Have you noticed, moron?
>
>
>>> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay
>>> yourself, very do-able.
>
>
> ***
> You seen the difference in costs for GI bill versus paying your own way?
> It's extra debt someone with an honorable discharge doesn't have.
Goddam, son, you can't even speak correct English, so what education benefit did you get?
Most people in need who go to college find a way to pay, most often working while
attending college, and loans or grants and there are plenty available.
*Anyone* can go through college if they want to, and *without* having to
sacrifice one's honor in the immoral U.S. military.
>
>
>>> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
>>
>>
>> You think? Let's be accurate about this one. *You* don't give a shit.
>> Others that think like you do maybe don't give a shit. But tens of
>> millions of others would give a shit...and some of them are
>> prospective employers.
>>
>> [ SNIP ]
>> AHS
>
>
> ***
> It would be interesting to see what someone's "friends" think when talk
> of military service comes up and an dishonorable discharge comes up...
No one gives a shit, I've seen it.
You're a naive kid.
billzz
> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 23:14:50 GMT, in alt.war.vietnam Arved Sandstrom
>
I took a course, in Washington, D.C., on how to transition from the
military/government to the commercial sector. We got lectures from an
HR person from IBM, a person from Britches of Georgetown on how to
dress, a psychological exam and interview with a psychologist, and on
and on. What kind of paper to print the resume on, and where to sit
in a waiting room were the tiny details that paid off for those that
took the course. The course was famous for placing people. So famous
that ten years after I retired from Rockwell having gone from
Technical Staff Member to Programs Manager for Network Programs, Korn-
Ferry offered me an interview as president of a French defense firm
(they needed an American figurehead.) I learned, along the way, that
they can find out anything that they want to find out. And if they do
not try, well, you are just not important enough to spend the money.
It used to cost about $10K to qualify someone for a US Secret
clearance. Anyone who says that a military discharge less than
honorable is not important, is, themselves, not important.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
> This particular individual may suffer little or no personal hardship,
> true. And since he believes that he took a moral stand, he's not going
> to feel like a shit because of being kicked out of the military.
True. You just destroyed your mickey mouse notion.
QED.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
There you go. Most people have at least one bad job experience, and
figure out how to overcome it. That's life.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
>>"Quin" would have you believe otherwise.
>
>
> Do me a favor and don't quote that moron to me, please.
Ha ha ha! Whatsamatta son did i hurt your feelings, refusing to
play your troll games.
;-)
>
> Jones
>
>
Frogwatch
I AM an employer and I hire very technical people. If I saw DD or
equivalent, I would not even consider the person and if I found out
about it later, I'd fire the person on the spot. As a small
businessman, I cannot afford the sort of incompetence and dishonesty a
DD means.
If somebody is a veteran, I actually consider them more than others as
a way to reward them for doing what I never did.
In this age, you do not hire someone for a real job without hiring an
agency to check them out. This includes all past felonies, military
record and even credit record. In a recession where every person you
hire must be worth twice what an employee would be worth two years
ago, you look even more closely.
So, Quinn is not just wrong, he is foolish.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Son, it's a big world, and your precious military just isn't that important.
The world is full of non-military companies, in case you haven't noticed.
It's business, not politics.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
Well, big deal, you're a minority. I've hired engineers and seen many other
engineers hired and no one seriously considered any military jobs. What
was *always* important was could this person do the job. You would be
a fool to throw away a superstar because he quit the military. To the
contrary, quitting the military often shows high standards...honor.
It's business, making money, not politics.
;-)
!Jones
<bil...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>I took a course, in Washington, D.C., on how to transition from the
>military/government to the commercial sector. We got lectures from an
>HR person from IBM, a person from Britches of Georgetown on how to
>dress, a psychological exam and interview with a psychologist, and on
>and on. What kind of paper to print the resume on, and where to sit
>in a waiting room were the tiny details that paid off for those that
>took the course. The course was famous for placing people. So famous
>that ten years after I retired from Rockwell having gone from
>Technical Staff Member to Programs Manager for Network Programs, Korn-
>Ferry offered me an interview as president of a French defense firm
>(they needed an American figurehead.) I learned, along the way, that
>they can find out anything that they want to find out. And if they do
>not try, well, you are just not important enough to spend the money.
>It used to cost about $10K to qualify someone for a US Secret
>clearance. Anyone who says that a military discharge less than
>honorable is not important, is, themselves, not important.
I'm not saying that you're not important; I'm just saying that it's
hard for a pure civilian HR department to vet military service, that's
all. Now, if it's a "defense firm", that's a different story.
If you're pure civilian, you cannot demand a DD214 from an applicant
and, if you do, anyway, you have no way to verify what you receive...
any printer can bang out a DD214 look-alike.
Jones
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
> I doubt that Watada will suffer any particular hardship... he just
> wasted six years;
That's right 6 years wasted, regardless of the discharge type. There's
not a big demand in the civilian world for artillery experience.
Regardless of discharge type...6 wasted years.
;-)
thus, he begins his professional career that far
> behind his peers. I see he's talking about law school; however; he'll
> be closing in on 40 by the time he finishes. The lad should have had
> a long talk with his conscience *BEFORE* he enlisted in the army!
Watada joined the military to fight terrorism and said he would go to
Afghanistan, but not Iraq as that would be immoral killing.
Regardless of what the military trys to define for us, we each still *must*
make moral decisions.
Son, why don't you learn what you are trying to talk about, instead of just mouthing off.
;-)
Nigel Brooks
"!Jones" <sws...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:182gc59i08emtdn8g...@4ax.com...
You can most certainly require that an applicant grant you access to his or
her records as a condition of employment - however most employers don't
bother and don't want to go through the expense and hassle of doing any kind
of a due diligence background check.
Nigel Brooks
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:34eaf77a-1b94-4885...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you hire Hitler if he can do the job and make you money.
that is all business cares about.
Hermann
> "Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> you hire Hitler if he can do the job and make you money.
> that is all business cares about.
There is no way that I would hire Fred!
>
>
Richard Casady
wrote:
>It used to cost about $10K to qualify someone for a US Secret
>clearance. Anyone who says that a military discharge less than
>honorable is not important, is, themselves, not important.
For Secret, the USAF used to check the national agencies. FBI and so
on. Cost probably 20 bucks. BTW, I was a perrsonnel man.
Casady
Kerryn Offord
> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>>
>> ***
>> Any HR specialist checking CVs to fill a job are looking for reasons
>> to reject each applicant.
>
> HR - Human Resources...ha ha ha, boy are you fuckin naive. Son, the people
> in the good jobs don't go through HR,
***
And you don't know anything if you imagine anybody can get a job without
HR being involved... Except for really small businesses where the boss
does everything.
Even the top CEOs have some sort of HR vetting.. (usually by the head
hunting companies responsible.)
To think otherwise indicates how naive you are...
The cost of making mistakes is too high to not have people run checks.
> that's for the mob competing for the
> low echelon jobs, filling out hundreds of applications. For the higher
> jobs,
***
Crap...
Look at your newspaper some time.. Have a look at the levels of the
positions being offered.. NZ$250,000pa plus here in NZ.. I can't imagine
USA doesn't have the same.. Even if the ads are in specialist
publications.. (Business papers)
Unless you think a quarter million salary is low echelon
If the positions are being advertised, then HR is usually involved.. and
CVs will be processed...
and well..
What is a recently discharged DD military actually "qualified" to do
that is not going to rely on reference to his military experience? SFA...
Anybody recently discharged from the military, except maybe a high
ranking officer, is going to be filling out his / her CV and pushing it
around...
Employers want to know about experience.. well, good employers who offer
good wages etc do... If you want scutt work they might not be so fussy..
> even if one did go through HR but was otherwise highly qualified, the
> former
> military job is irrelevant, as it is a business, to make money, not
> politics.
***
Except of course.. unless you are the only suitably qualified person for
the job the personnel officer is still looking for reasons to weed you
out of the running...
Given two otherwise equally qualified individuals.. the person with the
DD is going to be rejected... because they won't want to take the risk
he/she won't fit...
> Usually for the higher level jobs one *first* has an interview with the
> hiring person, then *after* getting hired and starting work *then* one
> fills out any paperwork HR might want.
***
Which clearly shows how little you know
That person going for that interview has been head hunted. The firm
doing the head hunting has checked them out already....
Nobody goes to an interview for a high level job without some kind of
vetting...
The higher the level of the position, the more expensive making a
mistake is...
>> If there is any competition for a job.. well.. Military service is a
>> "flag".. Failure to complete a term of enlistment is a "black flag"...
>> unless there is a note on type of discharge. No note giving a
>> reasonable reason for a discharge, and well.. "reject"
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
>>>> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine
>>>> without the VA hospitals.
>>
>>
>> ***
>> I have a contact in the states.
>>
>> He's just spent the last two months in hospital with serious heart
>> problems (Still in ICU).. He's ex-service..... hopefully VA is helping
>>
>> non-military need good insurance to survive two months plus ICU care...
>>
>> And afterwards.. well.. will your insurance company continue to cover
>> you (And at what price)
>
> Son, most people don't have VA and get along just fine. Have you
> noticed, moron?
***
How many of them apply for bankruptcy as a result of medical bills?
How many of them live with the knowledge that any medical problem can
bankrupt them?
Doing fine as long as you're healthy isn't a great way to live.. That's
why those that can afford it get health insurance (If the insurance
companies will cover them).
It's also a reason why VA benefits are so attractive....
>
>>
>>
>>>> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to
>>>> pay yourself, very do-able.
>>
>>
>> ***
>> You seen the difference in costs for GI bill versus paying your own
>> way? It's extra debt someone with an honorable discharge doesn't have.
>
> Goddam, son, you can't even speak correct English, so what education
> benefit did you get?
***
I got a "free ride" on the NZ system... Actually. They paid for me to go
to University...
>
> Most people in need who go to college find a way to pay, most often
> working while
> attending college, and loans or grants and there are plenty available.
> *Anyone* can go through college if they want to, and *without* having to
> sacrifice one's honor in the immoral U.S. military.
***
If you believe that...
Lot's of people can't go to university because not only can they not
afford it, neither can their family afford to help them.
They have a choice in funding..
Either get a scholarship, get student loans, or get the GI bill
The GI bill makes it easier for many to afford an education they
couldn't otherwise afford...
>>>> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
>>>
>>>
>>> You think? Let's be accurate about this one. *You* don't give a shit.
>>> Others that think like you do maybe don't give a shit. But tens of
>>> millions of others would give a shit...and some of them are
>>> prospective employers.
>>>
>>> [ SNIP ]
>>> AHS
>>
>>
>> ***
>> It would be interesting to see what someone's "friends" think when
>> talk of military service comes up and an dishonorable discharge comes
>> up...
>
> No one gives a shit, I've seen it.
>
> You're a naive kid.
***
Really..
Where have you seen it?
You and your friends might not give a shit.. but have you asked anybody
responsible for hiring high level employees if they give a shit?
HR personnel are looking for any reason to weed people out.... and a DD
is a really good (easily defended in court) reason to weed someone out.
Jack Linthicum
Great remark from HR person when I applied for a job there, "But
that's more than I make" Later worked with people from the same firm,
yes, that's why I left, no imagination. It was a firm doing "blue
sky" evaluations of military and diplomatic situations.
Kerryn Offord
<SNIP>
> This particular individual may suffer little or no personal hardship,
> true. And since he believes that he took a moral stand, he's not going
> to feel like a shit because of being kicked out of the military. But the
> general question was about *all* people who get BCDs or DDs, and since
> most of them got those discharges as a result of crimes that would still
> be crimes on civvie street, they've got nothing to be proud of. And most
> of them won't be going to law school either.
>
> "Quin" seems to think that a BCD or DD won't hurt anyone. Well, I assure
> you, if that BCD or DD was for rape, or fraud, or theft, or assault and
> battery, or drunk driving, that's a real crime, and it's one that
> civilian employers won't turn a blind eye to.
>
> As to the offenses like UA/AWOL or desertion, that civilians supposedly
> don't understand. Well, actually civilian employers understand them
> perfectly well - it's called absenteeism, and in real life that gets
> your ass fired. So a civilian employer would also be interested to hear
> that a prospective employee thought so little of the rules and policies
> of a former place of work that they got themselves kicked out for
> absenteeism. "Quin" would have you believe otherwise.
>
> AHS
Military service is usually considered "useful" by employers..
mostly for the personal disciple and leadership skills one expects them
to have.. and often the service training they've received...
So HR will look for military service,
and IIRC there are incentives for employers to recruit ex-service --
That makes them worth "money" to the firm.. and well..
DD or BCD probably don't count towards those incentives...
Kerryn Offord
I think the fee for/ cost of recruitment is 1-3 months salary for the
position...
Due diligence costs money.. At the low end they will use a lower level
of diligence (because it costs money).. as you move up the food chain
the cost of making mistakes gets higher..
this fee/cost explains why the HR want to weed down the numbers fast...
the less time it takes to weed numbers down and create a short list the
better (For company HR costs or HR company profits). So any reason is a
reason to reject... at least until you get to the short list... Then you
have to start thinking of reasons.
HR companies can't afford the loss of confidence if they let high level
people through because they didn't do enough checking (A couple of high
profile cases in NZ probably destroyed the HR companies responsible.. A
guy claiming a MBA from Denver State (Yes.. Denver State) And a woman
claiming a doctorate from (IIRC) Cambridge) -- IIRC she started but teh
university had no record of her completing it.. but she claimed it when
applying for a job...it was a government job and teh opposition had a
field day...
Kerryn Offord
>
> I AM an employer and I hire very technical people. If I saw DD or
> equivalent, I would not even consider the person and if I found out
> about it later, I'd fire the person on the spot. As a small
> businessman, I cannot afford the sort of incompetence and dishonesty a
> DD means.
> If somebody is a veteran, I actually consider them more than others as
> a way to reward them for doing what I never did.
> In this age, you do not hire someone for a real job without hiring an
> agency to check them out. This includes all past felonies, military
> record and even credit record. In a recession where every person you
> hire must be worth twice what an employee would be worth two years
> ago, you look even more closely.
> So, Quinn is not just wrong, he is foolish.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> you hire Hitler if he can do the job and make you money.
> that is all business cares about.
>
>
Only if he is absolutely the only person for the job.
He has so much personal baggage his employment by your business will be
a black mark against your company and you'll lose business...
Given the choice between two otherwise equally qualified people.. you
don't touch the one with the DD/ BCD because they're more likely to cost
you money... There has to be a good reason they got that DD/BCD and
well.. you aren't going to wast time asking for explanations.. time is
money...
!Jones
<nbr...@msn.com> wrote:
>You can most certainly require that an applicant grant you access to his or
>her records as a condition of employment - however most employers don't
>bother and don't want to go through the expense and hassle of doing any kind
>of a due diligence background check.
In Texas, it would have to have some bearing on the employment. For
example, I was a Bell 205 tech... if I applied to Bell Helicopter
citing that training, then they could require access, particularly,
since I raised the matter. If, on the other hand, I claimed that I
had proudly served in the infantry, then they could not require me to
prove that because it has nothing to do with an aircraft assembly
line. (One could argue that it might; however, the *applicant* would
have to raise that point: "You should hier me because of my patriotic
service in the infantry.")
Every decision we make in life has consequences... the emotionally
mature person accepts this. I believe that our decision to invade
Iraq was illegal from the perspective of international law and
unbelievably stupid from a social perspective... we will feel the
consequences of *that* decision for decades; mark my words! OTOH, had
I chosen to have enlisted in '03, then I would have accepted my ticket
to the show.
Jones
Ray O'Hara
"Kerryn Offord" <ka...@ext.cantrbury.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:haa51o$aga$1...@adenine.netfront.net...
its doubtful anybody would know everybody who works for you or their past.
and if the deal was beneficial they will make it.
self interest rules. not some loyalty to any ideals.
worse people than this guy get hired and rehired every day.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
> Military service is usually considered "useful" by employers..
Spending the same time working toward a B.S. or Masters degree is considered far more useful.
>
> So HR will look for military service,
No, son, HR doesn't look for it; they look to see if the application or
resume has the right buzz words for the job. A job in infantry or scrubbing
a ship's deck doesn't mean shit.
You are naive, spouting how you imagine or wish it is.
At your level, responding to newspaper ads, it works like this:
HR usually gets a set of job requirements from the hiring person (e.g. the
Director of Engineering), then HR's job is to advertise the job opening.
When HR receives an application or resume they will scan it to see if there
is a possible fit. The HR people are not technical people and generally
cannot evaluate technical competence. They scan for buzz words. The pile
of paper with the best buzz words gets sent to the hiring person who then
decides who to call in for an interview. The interview is all important, and
military experience unrelated to the job is completely irrelevant. If the
person with no or bad military job experience presents himself as better able
to do the job, then he will get hired. Period. It's business, not politics.
No applications or resumes are rejected for no military job experience.
Again, he who presents himself best for the job will get hired, and
spending 6 years scrubbing ship decks doesn't mean shit.
;-)
> and IIRC there are incentives for employers to recruit ex-service --
Son, why would incentives be necessary if military job experience is so valuable?
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> So any reason is a
> reason to reject... at least until you get to the short list... Then you
> have to start thinking of reasons.
sheesh...how fucking naive...or just plain stupid...
;-)
Ordie55
> Kerryn Offord wrote:
> sheesh...how fucking naive...or just plain stupid...
> ;-)
Yes Son, You certainly are!
The amazing thing here is that some actually think you are trying to
have meaningful conversation, when in actuality you just want to
demean & insult others...
like the Troll U R!
Or maybe someone out there can explain how your comments above are
anything else?
Uncle Bubbah Say...
If It Looks Like Dog Shit &,
It Smells Like Dog Shit &,
It Taste Like Dog Shit.....
Is Probably Dog Shit!
Ergo...............
Ordie55
> ;-)
Yes Son, You certainly are!
Frogwatch
The only type of person I'd hire without a significant background
check would be a flunky.
Ray says I'd hire Hitler if he could do the job which shows Ray has
never been in business. Character is a major part of why some people
get hired. If someone can do the job well but has what you'd consider
poor character traits, he will eventually be too much trouble and you
do not hire him. I have been in that position, hiring a PhD who was
very capable but was so paranoid I eventually let him go. For a
proessional level job, I insist on a significant background check.
This has already revealed on guy who was suspected by the FBI of
working for the Chinese govt.
Quin is simply wrong, business cannot afford to hire somebody who can
do the job well but will probably prove to have character flaws. This
simply shows Quinn has no experience in the matter.
Kerryn Offord
Nope.. real life.... Something you obviously have no contact with....
Time is money. Time wasted studying lots of CVs is wasted.
Fist pass by a personnel officer is the covering letter. If the letter
doesn't catch the attention then the CV never gets seen.
(Don't send "form letters". Always write a covering letter that
directly addresses what the company you are applying to wants and how
you can fill that want. Don't regurgitate what is on the CV beyond
raising points. Keep the covering letter brief (Less than one page)
Personnel officers are going to dump any "form letter" as it suggests
the applicant isn't really interested... it suggests they are using a
shotgun approach to looking for a job...
Kerryn Offord
>>
>> Military service is usually considered "useful" by employers..
>
> Spending the same time working toward a B.S. or Masters degree is
> considered far more useful.
***
And you are suggesting that military personnel can't have university
degrees/ Even some earned while in service?
Shows your level of ignorance...
>
>>
>> So HR will look for military service,
>
> No, son, HR doesn't look for it; they look to see if the application or
> resume has the right buzz words for the job. A job in infantry or
> scrubbing
> a ship's deck doesn't mean shit.
>
> You are naive, spouting how you imagine or wish it is.
***
Oh dear... your ignorance is showing...
Also your lack of comprehension...
Anybody who has completed a tour of duty has self-disciple skills and
likely has leadership skills.
The military does not waste it's resources having uniformed staff
scrubbing decks and well.. The average intelligence required to service
successfully in the infantry is quite high... They get to handle a lot
of high tech equipment... and do all sorts of special courses...
Obviously not all ex-military have these skills etc.. but enough do for
HR to take a happy view of military service.
>
> At your level, responding to newspaper ads, it works like this:
>
> HR usually gets a set of job requirements from the hiring person (e.g. the
> Director of Engineering), then HR's job is to advertise the job opening.
> When HR receives an application or resume they will scan it to see if there
> is a possible fit. The HR people are not technical people and generally
> cannot evaluate technical competence. They scan for buzz words. The pile
> of paper with the best buzz words gets sent to the hiring person who then
> decides who to call in for an interview. The interview is all
> important, and
> military experience unrelated to the job is completely irrelevant. If the
> person with no or bad military job experience presents himself as better
> able
> to do the job, then he will get hired. Period. It's business, not
> politics.
***
And the difference between this and higher level situations is?
Almost none.. Word of mouth gets around that company X is looking for
someone to do X... Head hunters check their files for suitable people.
People who might qualify talk to head hunter outfits hoping to be put
forward...
(You don't get many high level staff sending their CV to the company..
everything is done through intermediaries...
Of course anybody with a DD or BCD is unlikely to have the mental makeup
to be a better applicant...
>
> No applications or resumes are rejected for no military job experience.
***
Did anybody ever make that claim? I did say military service is usually
a plus when it comes to employment... not that it is a requirement.
Please learn comprehension skills. And stop throwing up strawmen...
The fact is.. HR does check.. Sure they are looking for "buzzwords"..
based on what the department they are recruiting for gave them...
The interview is the final filter. Up until then the HR department has
been finding reasons not to send someone forward (Usually they've been
asked to find X warm bodies for interviews)
>
> Again, he who presents himself best for the job will get hired, and
> spending 6 years scrubbing ship decks doesn't mean shit.
> ;-)
***
And someone said it did?
>
>> and IIRC there are incentives for employers to recruit ex-service --
>
> Son, why would incentives be necessary if military job experience is so
> valuable?
> ;-)
***
Because there is a lot of competition for work and it tips the balance
when two people are otherwise "equal".. And teh gateful nation tries to
reward military service
Kerryn Offord
For what kind of job?
remember.. the discussion has been (mostly) about the fact that a DD/
BCD is not good for your career...
Anybody know of people with DD/ BCD who have "done well" in employment
terms? And how does that compare with people without the DD/ BCD?
dino
I knew of one that didn't do well...
When I was in the Army I was told that Walt Disney had a DD and proudly
displayed it on the wall behind his desk. That was a well circulated and
believed tale - but not true...
Pepperoni
> I knew of one that didn't do well...
>
> When I was in the Army I was told that Walt Disney had a DD and proudly
> displayed it on the wall behind his desk. That was a well circulated and
> believed tale - but not true...
>
>
Walt was too young for the military (WW1), but served for 11 months in
France with the Red Cross after the war ended.
Nigel Brooks
"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bb9d6940-a16f-4b25...@s6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 4:36 pm, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>> > So any reason is a
>> > reason to reject... at least until you get to the short list... Then
>> > you
>> > have to start thinking of reasons.
>>
>> sheesh...how fucking naive...or just plain stupid...
>> ;-)
>
> The only type of person I'd hire without a significant background
> check would be a flunky.
> Ray says I'd hire Hitler if he could do the job which shows Ray has
> never been in business. Character is a major part of why some people
> get hired. If someone can do the job well but has what you'd consider
> poor character traits, he will eventually be too much trouble and you
> do not hire him. I have been in that position, hiring a PhD who was
> very capable but was so paranoid I eventually let him go. For a
> proessional level job, I insist on a significant background check.
> This has already revealed on guy who was suspected by the FBI of
> working for the Chinese govt.
Most businesses do not have the resources or the money to do a background
investigation on an applicant. In addition to checking former employment,
references, financial, and criminal records checks, the investigator also
has to develop other sources who know the individual.
It is a lengthy and expensive business to do it properly, and usually only a
government entity has that kind of resource.
> Quin is simply wrong, business cannot afford to hire somebody who can
> do the job well but will probably prove to have character flaws. This
> simply shows Quinn has no experience in the matter.
Yeah but Quinn is not Quinn - he's merely a common or garden variety troll
who gets a kick out of riling folks up.
Nigel Brooks
Ordie55
> Yeah but Quinn is not Quinn - he's merely a common or garden variety troll
> who gets a kick out of riling folks up.
>
> Nigel Brooks
Well Said Son!
LOLOLOL
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
>
> Anybody know of people with DD/ BCD who have "done well" in employment
> terms?
Yes, I do. I worked with one while he had a secret clearance.
Son, we have right here on usenet a professor at a major university who says
his "dishonorable discharge" from the 1970s presented very little problem.
You are like a naive kid recruit who choses to believe the scare crap put out by the military.
It's a big world with many opportunities for *anyone* who wants to succeed.
It's business, making money, the American Way...not politics.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>
>> Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>
>>> Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>>
>>> ***
>>> Any HR specialist checking CVs to fill a job are looking for reasons
>>> to reject each applicant.
>>
>>
>> HR - Human Resources...ha ha ha, boy are you fuckin naive. Son, the
>> people
>> in the good jobs don't go through HR,
>
>
> ***
> And you don't know anything if you imagine anybody can get a job without
> HR being involved...
That's right, son, *anyone* can get a job *anywhere* without *first* going through HR.
But why worry, as it's a big world and there are plenty of companies who actually
*need* the new employee and won't give a shit about irrelevant military jobs.
It's business, not politics.
> Except for really small businesses where the boss
> does everything.
Well yeah, that's *one* way. There are many ways.
>
> Even the top CEOs have some sort of HR vetting.. (usually by the head
> hunting companies responsible.)
Son, anybody hiring CEOs will not give a shit about a military job when
the prospect was a kid, and HR is usually not qualified to vet except for
checking for buzz words or spelling and grammar errors on a resume, or
checking if the prospect did work at the prior companies stated. Anyone
hiring a CEO is not going to give too big a responsibility to a fairly
low paid HR person. Any other background checking will come *after* the
interviews, and then the hiring person, not HR, will make determinations.
What do you think...
"he has 6 years air force fueling experience, hire him as CEO!"
Or
"he guided his company to record profits but he has a DD from 20 years ago, forget him!"
sheesh...you are naive as hell...I can't read your crap any further
;-)
!Jones
<dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>The only type of person I'd hire without a significant background
>check would be a flunky.
>Ray says I'd hire Hitler if he could do the job which shows Ray has
>never been in business. Character is a major part of why some people
>get hired. If someone can do the job well but has what you'd consider
>poor character traits, he will eventually be too much trouble and you
>do not hire him. I have been in that position, hiring a PhD who was
>very capable but was so paranoid I eventually let him go. For a
>proessional level job, I insist on a significant background check.
>This has already revealed on guy who was suspected by the FBI of
>working for the Chinese govt.
It ultimately comes down to money and a diminishing return on that
investment. First of all, it is *very* expensive; for this reason,
most employers rely on government agencies. Second: how do you know
that your process works? How do you know that a larger investment in
background investigation will produce a better quality applicant
stream? I can't cite a quantitative study on it because there simply
aren't any and never will be. This lack of hard evidence makes it
more difficult to pry funding from CEOs worried about bottom line and
ROI.
It's a little like spotting the fake Rolex... one person looks at the
watch; the other at the person selling the watch. It's not an exact
science.
>Quin is simply wrong...
No, he's simply a moron, that's all.
Jones
Richard Casady
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>richar...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote:
>
>:On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 18:36:37 -0700 (PDT), billzz <bil...@wildblue.net>
>:
>
>You think you can do ANYTHING for $20? Preposterous! Take the number
>of agencies checked, multiply by the cost of the check (either
>computer time, clerical time, or both). Don't forget to include
>clerical costs at each agency for preparing the report back, vetting
>that the request for records is appropriate, etc.
>i10k is *cheap*..
You could send a letter to about six agencies and ask if they have
anything. This involves looking in a drawer full of punch cards and
seeing if there is one. 98% of the time there was nothing. My entry
level pay was 90 bucks a month, for example, while civilians got more,
I can't imagine how you could get it up to 20 bucks. That is way high.
It is high if you spent an hour on the horn for each guy.
Actually it was done in bulk, one email a day from the guys at the
basic training base would do it. We had guys who could type 90 words a
minute.. I had a background investigation which involved talking to
everyone I ever knew, severral days of work for, often, a FBI agent. I
never got the Top Secret Russian linguist job. When they wanted a
warm body for a shit detail, I got a secret clearance along with the
gun. That was all you needed for the license to kill, a secret
clearance and an hour or so at the small arms range. Actually, you
needed the clearance to get on the flight line, to mostly check if
guys had their photo ID. The badges had a clip solidly rivited not on
a swivel and were easily brushed off, and if a guy was missing his it
was usually on the ground nearby.
Everyone I knew had the one buck agency check, and all the aircrew,
all the mechanics, and all the guys with guns, had a secret clearance
and they sure as hell didn't spend more than a four year enlistment
worth of pay on less than an hours work.
You can speculate all you want, but I was there. The story was that a
secret was practically free, while a TS could possibly get expensive
There were few TS jobs at Charleston AFB, undoubtedly the guys inside
the nuke warehouse. I mean the gomers knew who we were, said 437MAW
right on the planes.
Casady
Frogwatch
wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:52:30 -0700, Fred J. McCall
>
>
>
What an amazing amount of nonsense Quin is full of. The higher level
the job, the more the person gets checked out (unless it is for an
Obama cabinet position). These days, you can hire a company that does
this sort of thing to find out anything on anybody, if you do not, and
the hiree screws up, you will get sued. Such background checks can be
a very valuable tool to see what a person is REALLY like aside from
glowing references that mean nothing. Universities will hire anybody
because Professorial types would mostly be disasters in any business.
The things a person does in his younger years bear great relevance to
his character today. You would never hire someone for a position of
responsibility knowing he had done prison time or gotten a DD no
matter how many years later it is.
I have been "burned" twice by hirees before I starting checking them
out. The first was a technician who I failed to check out why he had
left a previous job a 1000 miles away and he got very flaky and
started being suicidal at work. The next was a professional position
and I hired a Chinese guy with a green card and later had a federal
agency advise me he was working for the Chinese govt. Last hiree, I
had a serious background check done.
Richard Casady
>It's business, making money, the American War
The DD was awarded only by sentence of a general court martial, and,
in the USAF, was vanishingly rare. It took a class A felony to get
one. Murder, rape, armed robbery. It always came with at least a year
in the can. If they just wanted you out, there was the undesirable
discharge, other than honorable, fuck all veterens benefits, the worst
you can get without a sentence of a court.. You got those for gay,
drugs, drunken bum,
bad check writer, stuff like that. Quite a few recruiter's mistakes
got honorable discharges for being inept. I used to type discharge
papers, and, believe me, you had to work at it to get really bad
paper.
Casady
Tri-Pacer
PLONK
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Boy did this troll ever get results
Son, initiating a relevant lively discussion is not trolling.
Trolling would be someone asking you if your mother is still the town slut.
Is she?
;-)
Richard Casady
<fjmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Yeah, you were the only guy in the world who ever got exposed to any
>of this. You were a bloody clerk-typist (apparently), and a not very
>bright one at that.
You don't know what a clerk-typist is or does, or what a personnel
specialist is, but quack on. A clerk-typist is a guy who can type well
and who could undoubtedly knit up a storm if he tried. Doing personnel
work didn't involve much typing, in many cases, but it was more
complicated than what those called clerks did. I filled out forms, and
it probably ammounted to two pages a day of actual words. Just as
well, I had steel fingers, no dexterity whatever, and the best I could
do was maybe ten words a minute. It wasn't rocket science and I never
said it was. There were never any complaints about my work, by the
way. I filled out DD214's and all the recipients seemed glad to get
them. Also did enlistment contracts. It was better than toting a
machine gun through rice paddies.
Casady
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:04:01 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>
>>>Anybody know of people with DD/ BCD who have "done well" in employment
>>>terms?
>>
>>Yes, I do. I worked with one while he had a secret clearance.
>>
>>Son, we have right here on usenet a professor at a major university who says
>>his "dishonorable discharge" from the 1970s presented very little problem.
>>
>>You are like a naive kid recruit who choses to believe the scare crap put out by the military.
>>
>>It's a big world with many opportunities for *anyone* who wants to succeed.
>>
>>It's business, making money, the American War
>
>
> Quite a few recruiter's mistakes
> got honorable discharges for being inept. I used to type discharge
> papers, and, believe me, you had to work at it to get really bad
> paper.
Yep. And hiring companies might reasonably infer that the so-called honorable discharge is
not necessarily honorable...it doesn't mean shit...what counts is can the prospect
demonstrate that he can do the required job. Period. It's business, not politics.
;-)
Frogwatch
Quin, clearly demonstrates he knows nothing about business.
Jack Linthicum
I think your mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing
!Jones
<Zomby...@cox.net> wrote:
>>For the most part, a kid in the armed forces is just starting his or
>>her career. Even with a blem; the person can clean up his act and do
>>OK. Actually, except for US Civil Service, civillian HR people seldom
>>vet military records as they're fairly difficult to obtain. I can
>>make you include a transcript with your application; not so with
>>military records. I can't even make you show me your DD214.
>>
>You can indeed ask for a DD214, but nowadays very few people do
>outside of the Federal Civil Service System. I've never once been
>asked for a copy of my DD214 for any Non Civil Service position, ever.
You can *ask* for a Biblical citation. You cannot use it as a
criterion for employment unless you can show that it has a direct
bearing on the job description. If I am citing military experience as
a part of my qualification(s), then it's certainly on the table. On
the other hand, if the job description has absolutely nothing to do
with military service (and I don't raise the matter), then you cannot
require it.
That has been tested when an employer (Youth Options, Austin, TX) had
a federal grant that required them to hire a teacher who was an ethnic
minority. To that end, they required the person to be bilingual
(*everyone* should be bilingual, IMO); however, this had nothing to do
with the job description... they lost in court.
Jones
!Jones
Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I think your mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing
Jack, do us all a big favor and honor the <PLONK>.
Jones
!Jones
<dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Quin, clearly demonstrates he knows nothing about business.
Sir, I agree that he has demonstrated *many* things, a knowledge of
business being the least.
Jack Linthicum
> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:29:02 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam Jack
>
> >I think your mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing
>
> Jack, do us all a big favor and honor the <PLONK>.
>
> Jones
Oh sure, you are the Petronius Arbiter of smn, either than or another
piece of trollery that can't find a naval topic to comment on.
!Jones
Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >I think your mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing
>>
>> Jack, do us all a big favor and honor the <PLONK>.
>
>Oh sure, you are the Petronius Arbiter of smn, either than or another
>piece of trollery that can't find a naval topic to comment on.
Oh, I probably could if I tried. Would it look like: "I think your
mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing"? I certainly
wouldn't end my sentence with a preposition, though!
It's just a civil request, Jack... do as you please; to be honest, I
don't generally bother reading your postings, either.
Jones
Jack Linthicum
> On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:58:31 -0700 (PDT), in alt.war.vietnam Jack
>
> >> >I think your mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing
>
> >> Jack, do us all a big favor and honor the <PLONK>.
>
> >Oh sure, you are the Petronius Arbiter of smn, either than or another
> >piece of trollery that can't find a naval topic to comment on.
>
> Oh, I probably could if I tried. Would it look like: "I think your
> mother cut her prices and drove her back to waitressing"? I certainly
> wouldn't end my sentence with a preposition, though!
>
> It's just a civil request, Jack... do as you please; to be honest, I
> don't generally bother reading your postings, either.
>
> Jones
I count nine posts by you on this thread. That isn't a civil request
that's trying to steal the spotlight.
!Jones
actually *saw* a white elephant! They had a gorilla there, Jack... it
was smarter than most of the posters here (present company, as always,
excepted.)
I mean... I'd pull my ear and go "Uba-doo-doo!" And the gorillia
would pull his ear and go "Uba-doo-doo!" too. It was just the
damndest thing I'd ever seen.
Did I ever tell that story?
Anybody wanna hear about the gorillia? It's a true story or I'll eat
a bug!
Jones
tankfixer
sws...@hotmail.com says...
>
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:29:01 -0400, in alt.war.vietnam Zombywoof
> <Zomby...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>For the most part, a kid in the armed forces is just starting his or
> >>her career. Even with a blem; the person can clean up his act and do
> >>OK. Actually, except for US Civil Service, civillian HR people seldom
> >>vet military records as they're fairly difficult to obtain. I can
> >>make you include a transcript with your application; not so with
> >>military records. I can't even make you show me your DD214.
> >>
> >You can indeed ask for a DD214, but nowadays very few people do
> >outside of the Federal Civil Service System. I've never once been
> >asked for a copy of my DD214 for any Non Civil Service position, ever.
>
> You can *ask* for a Biblical citation. You cannot use it as a
> criterion for employment unless you can show that it has a direct
> bearing on the job description. If I am citing military experience as
> a part of my qualification(s), then it's certainly on the table. On
> the other hand, if the job description has absolutely nothing to do
> with military service (and I don't raise the matter), then you cannot
> require it.
If I see a person has left a gap emplyment history of three or so years
I would be asking...
If he tells me he was in but had some troubles then I can evaulate that
and hire him or not.
But if he choses to say he was unemployed and I later find he was in the
service and discharged for cause I'll fire him post haste.. For lying.
!Jones
<paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You can *ask* for a Biblical citation. You cannot use it as a
>> criterion for employment unless you can show that it has a direct
>> bearing on the job description. If I am citing military experience as
>> a part of my qualification(s), then it's certainly on the table. On
>> the other hand, if the job description has absolutely nothing to do
>> with military service (and I don't raise the matter), then you cannot
>> require it.
>
>If I see a person has left a gap emplyment history of three or so years
>I would be asking...
>If he tells me he was in but had some troubles then I can evaulate that
>and hire him or not.
>But if he choses to say he was unemployed and I later find he was in the
>service and discharged for cause I'll fire him post haste.. For lying.
I cannot speak to what you would or wouldn't do in some hypothetical
situation. I am simply saying that a person can only be required to
document military service if it relates directly to the job
description or if the person is claiming veteran status and asking for
some consideration based on that.
It's kind of a 5th Amendment thing... the person should not make a
false statement; the person may simply not answer. OTOH, if you
couldn't verify it pre-employment, then how would you learn of it
later?
My guess is that, if the person made a valuable employee, then most
people would tend to look at *that*. If the person were a slacker and
the employer were looking for a reason to get rid of him or her, then
one can usually find something on the resume that was padded... most
of them are. Any reason is as good as the next.
97% of the people who are fired are either fired by a jerk or for
being one... and many times, both.
Jones
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> In article <0ookc516r0knumlt5...@4ax.com>,
> sws...@hotmail.com says...
>
>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:29:01 -0400, in alt.war.vietnam Zombywoof
>><Zomby...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>For the most part, a kid in the armed forces is just starting his or
>>>>her career. Even with a blem; the person can clean up his act and do
>>>>OK. Actually, except for US Civil Service, civillian HR people seldom
>>>>vet military records as they're fairly difficult to obtain. I can
>>>>make you include a transcript with your application; not so with
>>>>military records. I can't even make you show me your DD214.
>>>>
>>>
>>>You can indeed ask for a DD214, but nowadays very few people do
>>>outside of the Federal Civil Service System. I've never once been
>>>asked for a copy of my DD214 for any Non Civil Service position, ever.
>>
>>You can *ask* for a Biblical citation. You cannot use it as a
>>criterion for employment unless you can show that it has a direct
>>bearing on the job description. If I am citing military experience as
>>a part of my qualification(s), then it's certainly on the table. On
>>the other hand, if the job description has absolutely nothing to do
>>with military service (and I don't raise the matter), then you cannot
>>require it.
>
>
> If I see a person has left a gap emplyment history of three or so years
> I would be asking...
Son, we know you are not in any such position so you may say anything about what
you might do. You have amply demonstrated you are a jerk. The vast majority of
responsible people in hiring positions are mature reasonable people concerned with
their business, not some mickey mouse ideology.
No one really expects an 18 year old to have any significant job experience.
Gaps in the younger years are fine.
Gaps are easy to explain..."I backpacked Europe", "I taught fly-fishing in Alaska",
"I just didn't work", "I surfed the big waves", etc...
But again, it's a big world with many companies who don't give a shit about 3 years
in a military job (scrubbing ship decks, or whatever), especially as it fades into history.
Most people have bad job experiences and learn how to overcome them. No big deal.
It's business, not politics.
;-)
> If he tells me he was in but had some troubles then I can evaulate that
> and hire him or not.
I recommend leaving *all* bad job experiences off of resumes (or job application forms).
> But if he choses to say he was unemployed and I later find he was in the
> service and discharged for cause I'll fire him post haste.. For lying.
Who cares (especially since you're not in such a position and you've amply demonstrated here
that you are a jerk).
Rule #1: Remember it's a *BIG* world with a great many companies and opportunities.
Rule #2: They are interviewing you, but you are also interviewing them. If there is
any possibility that your boss is a jerk, don't go to work there.
Rule #3: Always be truthful and forthright about what you can do, and expect a
company to hire you on that basis. Don't exaggerate your abilities, as that will be discovered.
Rule #4: *Anyone* can be successful with the right attitude. *You* are in demand.
forget the mickey mouse stuff the military says to scare the young recruits...
;-)
Kerryn Offord
> organizations is a valid reason for termination. Also, if the
> discharge was the result of a Court Martial you must list it under the
> any convictions area of the job application. Some employers do not
> vet lower level employees, but almost all do for higher level
> positions or positions of trust. Some also run a basic NCIS criminal
> check on ALL prospective employees.
> --
>
> Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms should be aisles in a
> convenience store; not a Government agency!
Lying on a job application form can also be fraud (using a document for
gain knowing it to be false).
A guy in NZ got sent to prison for falsely claiming a MBA (It was with a
high profile Government enterprise (niche TV station IIRC)
Kerryn Offord
> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:42:29 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>> Well, big deal, you're a minority. I've hired engineers and seen many other
>> engineers hired and no one seriously considered any military jobs. What
>> was *always* important was could this person do the job. You would be
>> a fool to throw away a superstar because he quit the military. To the
>> contrary, quitting the military often shows high standards...honor.
>>
>> It's business, making money, not politics.
>> ;-)
>>
> And very few people want Politics interfering with their ability to
> make money. If I knew your organization deliberately hired DD's,
> BCD's or Deserters I simply would not do business with you. Many
> other people feel the same way.
> --
>
> Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms should be aisles in a
> convenience store; not a Government agency!
Quin seems to imagine DD or BCD is the same as "quitting the military"
(leaving at the end of your term or arranging an early discharge - if
that is possible)..
he fails to notice the significant difference between being "kicked out
without a reference" (probably after doing time) and leaving because you
want to...
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> organizations is a valid reason for termination.
I recommend doing whatever it takes to overcome a bad job experience. An 18 year old
soon will have other good experience which will eclipse his bad military job.
Also, if the
> discharge was the result of a Court Martial you must list it under the
> any convictions area of the job application.
No, a discharge is not a criminal conviction. A "less than honorable" discharge is not a crime.
> Some employers do not vet lower level employees,
Not "some", son, virtually none check beyond a very rudimentary level for low level jobs.
> but almost all do for higher level
> positions or positions of trust.
By then the bad military job will be long faded into *irrelevant*, and unmentioned, history.
> Some also run a basic NCIS criminal
> check on ALL prospective employees.
It's a *BIG* world, and unless this *very* small number of jobs is important, avoid them.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 18:59:25 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
> <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On Oct 3, 9:46 pm, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Lewis K. Zeelastik wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote in message
>>>>news:PNWdnWFZdr6vM1rX...@supernews.com...
>>>
>>>>>Some military types assert being kicked out of the military has
>>>>>"devastating, just devastating" effects. It's like the Boy Scouts talking
>>>>>about how important their little club is.
>>>
>>>>>Let's recap:
>>>>> 1. job/career - virtually no effect (unless you want a career in the
>>>>>Post Office
>>>>> or some common job like forklift operator for the next 30 years).
>>>>> 2. VA hospitals - who cares, as non-military get along just fine without
>>>>>the VA hospitals.
>>>>> 3. educational benefits - like most anyone else, you'll have to pay
>>>>>yourself, very do-able.
>>>>> 4. stigma - hardly anyone gives a shit
>>>>> 5. don't get free uniforms anymore - yeah!
>>>
>>>>>This "devastating" talk is just Mickey Mouse bullshit to scare the young
>>>>>lads.
>>>
>>>>>Most importantly, one can keep honor by telling an immoral military to go
>>>>>fuck itself.
>>>>>;-)
>>>
>>>>>definition:
>>>>>murder - the unjustifiable and intentional killing of people, NO
>>>>>EXCEPTIONS.
>>>
>>>>When I was serving in the Merchant Marine, at the end of each voyage we had
>>>>our MM book stamped with two letters for professionalism and the same for
>>>>conduct. The two letters were wither VG/VG (Very Good) - G/G (Good) or DR/DR
>>>>(Decline Report). You always got the same two letters for both
>>>>Professionalism and Conduct. Within the MM itself VG/VG was the only
>>>>acceptable report if you wanted to ship out again. G was tantamount to
>>>>TERRIBLE and DR was like signing a death warrant.
>>>>However, when applying for a shore based job, the prospective employer
>>>>didn't have a clue what these reports represented. VG and G to them was
>>>>quite acceptable when you explained that they meant Very Good and Good and
>>>>you could make up anything to explain what DR meant - eg, Deck
>>>>Responsibility, Direct Recruit, Decidely Responsible, etc.
>>>
>>>There you go. Most people have at least one bad job experience, and
>>>figure out how to overcome it. That's life.
>>>;-)
>>
>>If somebody is a veteran, I actually consider them more than others as
>>a way to reward them for doing what I never did.
>
> As do I. I've always had a preference for hiring Veterans and think
> more people should. I also cannot afford the bad image that may come
> from having a DD or BCD employee on the payroll, unless they are a
> janitor or something.
*Nobody* hires based on the prospect being a Vet, as what matters is can
the prospect do the job. An "honorable" discharge for scrubbing ship decks or
being an army cook for 6 years doesn't mean shit, except perhaps some *loser*
was able to hang on to an easy job where no initiative was required. You hire
that guy, son, in your made-up "company". ;-)
As for your illusion of "bad image", well son, hardly anyone gives a shit...dream on.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 19:42:29 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>> I've hired engineers and seen many other
>>engineers hired and no one seriously considered any military jobs. What
>>was *always* important was could this person do the job. You would be
>>a fool to throw away a superstar because he quit the military. To the
>>contrary, quitting the military often shows high standards...honor.
>>
>>It's business, making money, not politics.
>>;-)
>
> If I knew your organization deliberately hired Deserters I simply would
> not do business with you.
Who cares...it's a big world...*BIG* I tell you!
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:04:01 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>
>>>Anybody know of people with DD/ BCD who have "done well" in employment
>>>terms?
>>
>>Yes, I do. I worked with one while he had a secret clearance.
>>
>
>
>>Son, we have right here on usenet a professor at a major university who says
>>his "dishonorable discharge" from the 1970s presented very little problem.
>>
>
>
>>You are like a naive kid recruit who choses to believe the scare crap put out by the military.
>>
>>It's a big world with many opportunities for *anyone* who wants to succeed.
>>
>
> everyday. It costs me $25 to run a basic background check through our
> State Police and even less to run a credit check. Both are done on
> every single new hire along with a pre-employment physical (to
> establish a baseline) & drug screen. All in it is usually less then
> $200 to Vet an employee.
Son, none of that shows military history. You moron.
>
>>It's business, making money, the American Way...not politics.
> And nothing will stop a company from not making money quicker then a
> lack of credibility.
So, son, in your dream world a CEO making record profits for XYZ Cracker Company reveals
that he quit the military by refusing to go to Vietnam would be booted out since
cracker sales will plummet as customers stop buying XYZ crackers.
go on, son, you ain't really that stupid are you?
;-)
Jack Pine Savage
"Zombywoof" <Zomby...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ia5qc59d05kj1ni2k...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 18:59:25 -0700 (PDT), Frogwatch
>>equivalent, I would not even consider the person and if I found out
>>about it later, I'd fire the person on the spot. As a small
>>businessman, I cannot afford the sort of incompetence and dishonesty a
>>DD means.
>>If somebody is a veteran, I actually consider them more than others as
>>a way to reward them for doing what I never did.
>>agency to check them out. This includes all past felonies, military
>>record and even credit record. In a recession where every person you
>>hire must be worth twice what an employee would be worth two years
>>ago, you look even more closely.
>>So, Quinn is not just wrong, he is foolish.
>>
> As do I. I've always had a preference for hiring Veterans and think
> more people should. I also cannot afford the bad image that may come
> from having a DD or BCD employee on the payroll, unless they are a
> janitor or something.
Like a phony Ph.D. perhaps?
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 13:01:23 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.">>>Military service is usually considered "useful" by employers..
>>
>>Spending the same time working toward a B.S. or Masters degree is considered far more useful.
>>
>
> Of course it is, but it also tells me nothing about your work ethic.
Wrong, son, it establishes that the prospect can set and achieve long term goals.
You moron.
>
>>>So HR will look for military service,
>>
>>No, son, HR doesn't look for it; they look to see if the application or
>>resume has the right buzz words for the job. A job in infantry or scrubbing
>>a ship's deck doesn't mean shit.
>>
>
> If they ask, and some do, then they want to know.
Son, it's been amply shown in this thread that very very few, if any, ask.
> Lying on an
> employment application is almost always a cause for termination.
Of course, so be careful. Leaving out ancient bad job experiences is not lying, son.
>
>>You are naive, spouting how you imagine or wish it is.
>>
>>At your level, responding to newspaper ads, it works like this:
>>
>>HR usually gets a set of job requirements from the hiring person (e.g. the
>>Director of Engineering), then HR's job is to advertise the job opening.
>>When HR receives an application or resume they will scan it to see if there
>>is a possible fit. The HR people are not technical people and generally
>>cannot evaluate technical competence. They scan for buzz words. The pile
>>of paper with the best buzz words gets sent to the hiring person who then
>>decides who to call in for an interview. The interview is all important, and
>>military experience unrelated to the job is completely irrelevant. If the
>>person with no or bad military job experience presents himself as better able
>>to do the job, then he will get hired. Period. It's business, not politics.
>>
>>No applications or resumes are rejected for no military job experience.
>>
>
> Unless you are trying to do a diversity fill for an EEO requirement.
right, son...for the low-level herd jobs, the any-ol-job-will-do crowd...like
a Post Office job...or the ultra-tiny number of other government jobs...son, you have
no grasp here...
>
>>Again, he who presents himself best for the job will get hired, and
>>spending 6 years scrubbing ship decks doesn't mean shit.
>>
>
> If that was only true we wouldn't have Affirmative Action programs.
> The best person for the job ability wise is not always the person that
> gets the job offer.
>
>>>and IIRC there are incentives for employers to recruit ex-service --
>>
>>Son, why would incentives be necessary if military job experience is so valuable?
>>
>
> It isn't that the experience is so valuable, but that the service &
> employment of Veterans is appreciated and sometimes rewarded.
Well, son, your admirers can go after those secure government jobs...my crowd doesn't want them.
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> gain knowing it to be false).
Son, it depends on the lie. An 18 year old leaving off his bad military
experience is not lying, as there is no rule that says all bad job experiences must
be told, else resumes would be hundreds of pages long. ;-)
>
> A guy in NZ got sent to prison for falsely claiming a MBA (It was with a
> high profile Government enterprise (niche TV station IIRC)
There ya go...a relevant lie. If the same 50 year old left off his
bad military job when he was 18 years old...nobody gives a shit.
;-)
Richard Casady
wrote:
>And nothing will stop a company from not making money quicker then a
>lack of credibility.
WTF?
Casady
Richard Casady
<dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>No, a discharge is not a criminal conviction. A "less than honorable" discharge is not a crime.
Being hanged by the neck until dead is not a crime or a criminal
conviction either. DD's are part of the sentence for a felony
conviction. Fred said a BCD is misdemeanor thing. I don't rightly
remember that part of it, not part of the need to know to process the
papers. And, out of thousands of separations, there were no DD's one
BCD. A dozen or two Undesirable discharges.
Casady
Richard Casady
<dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>*Nobody* hires based on the prospect being a Vet, as what matters is can
>the prospect do the job. An "honorable" discharge for scrubbing ship decks or
>being an army cook for 6 years doesn't mean shit, except perhaps some *loser*
>was able to hang on to an easy job where no initiative was required. You hire
>that guy, son, in your made-up "company". ;-)
The airlines used get most of their pilots from the military. No place
else to get the heavy jet experience. Also the usual source for
aircraft mechanics.
Casady
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:09:36 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Zombywoof wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:04:01 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
>>><dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Anybody know of people with DD/ BCD who have "done well" in employment
>>>>>terms?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I do. I worked with one while he had a secret clearance.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I have to throw up the B.S. flag on that one.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Son, we have right here on usenet a professor at a major university who says
>>>>his "dishonorable discharge" from the 1970s presented very little problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>>In most Universities it would probably be considered a plus.
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are like a naive kid recruit who choses to believe the scare crap put out by the military.
>>>>
>>>>It's a big world with many opportunities for *anyone* who wants to succeed.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes it is. However, technology is making it smaller & smaller
>>>everyday. It costs me $25 to run a basic background check through our
>>>State Police and even less to run a credit check. Both are done on
>>>every single new hire along with a pre-employment physical (to
>>>establish a baseline) & drug screen. All in it is usually less then
>>>$200 to Vet an employee.
>>
>>Son, none of that shows military history. You moron.
>>
>
> does.
Son, the point here is if you spend $200 expecting to find war resisters with
"other than honorable", you won't find them. You dummy.
(you would be *exactly* the dumb ass who is easy to get around because you think you
know it all...just figure out what you want to hear and tell you...dazzle you.
btw, that (a know-it-all dumb ass) is a well known weakness in security systems, son.)
;-)
>
>>>>It's business, making money, the American Way...not politics.
>>
>>>And nothing will stop a company from not making money quicker then a
>>>lack of credibility.
>>
>>So, son, in your dream world a CEO making record profits for XYZ Cracker Company reveals
>>that he quit the military by refusing to go to Vietnam would be booted out since
>>cracker sales will plummet as customers stop buying XYZ crackers.
>>
>
> Quitting the Military isn't the same thing as getting tossed out on
> your ass, but for some reason I suspect you aren't able to understand
> that difference.
>
>>go on, son, you ain't really that stupid are you?
>>;-)
>
> Perhaps even stupider, I won't do business with condescending assholes
> who call people son either Junior.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> Since I started it & run it, I guess it is my "made up" company.
> Matter of fact the name of it is ExGis Consulting.
Ha Ha Ha!!! you and your 1 person "consulting" company...i've seen lots of those...
that's one way people fill up gaps on their resume...just make up your "company"...
;-)
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:11:06 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
> <dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Zombywoof wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 13:01:23 -0700, "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."
>>><dr...@coldine.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kerryn Offord wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Military service is usually considered "useful" by employers..
>>>>
>>>>Spending the same time working toward a B.S. or Masters degree is considered far more useful.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Of course it is, but it also tells me nothing about your work ethic.
>>
>>Wrong, son, it establishes that the prospect can set and achieve long term goals.
>>
>
> Same thing can be said for someone who completes their initial
> Military Obligation jackass.
No son, 6 years of scrubbing ship decks proves only that some loser can hang on.
And...the poor ship deck scrubber is 6 years *behind* the college degreed person for
any meaningful career.
>
>>You moron.
>>
>
> Projecting your weaknesses on others now Dad?
>
>>>>>So HR will look for military service,
>>>>
>>>>No, son, HR doesn't look for it; they look to see if the application or
>>>>resume has the right buzz words for the job. A job in infantry or scrubbing
>>>>a ship's deck doesn't mean shit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>If they ask, and some do, then they want to know.
>>
>>Son, it's been amply shown in this thread that very very few, if any, ask.
>>
>
> That was my premise in a post on the subject many moons ago. However,
> for the one's that do it is in fact quite important.?
>
>>> Lying on an
>>>employment application is almost always a cause for termination.
>>
>>Of course, so be careful. Leaving out ancient bad job experiences is not lying, son.
>>
>
> Also known as an error of omission. You'll have a hard time
> convincing me you forgot the Military tossed you out on your ass.
>
>>>>You are naive, spouting how you imagine or wish it is.
>>>>
>>>>At your level, responding to newspaper ads, it works like this:
>>>>
>>>>HR usually gets a set of job requirements from the hiring person (e.g. the
>>>>Director of Engineering), then HR's job is to advertise the job opening.
>>>>When HR receives an application or resume they will scan it to see if there
>>>>is a possible fit. The HR people are not technical people and generally
>>>>cannot evaluate technical competence. They scan for buzz words. The pile
>>>>of paper with the best buzz words gets sent to the hiring person who then
>>>>decides who to call in for an interview. The interview is all important, and
>>>>military experience unrelated to the job is completely irrelevant. If the
>>>>person with no or bad military job experience presents himself as better able
>>>>to do the job, then he will get hired. Period. It's business, not politics.
>>>>
>>>>No applications or resumes are rejected for no military job experience.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Unless you are trying to do a diversity fill for an EEO requirement.
>>
>>right, son...for the low-level herd jobs, the any-ol-job-will-do crowd...like
>>a Post Office job...or the ultra-tiny number of other government jobs...son, you have
>>no grasp here...
>>
>
> Well I have a grasp on reality, you have one on your ass. BFD!
>
>>>>Again, he who presents himself best for the job will get hired, and
>>>>spending 6 years scrubbing ship decks doesn't mean shit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>If that was only true we wouldn't have Affirmative Action programs.
>>>The best person for the job ability wise is not always the person that
>>>gets the job offer.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and IIRC there are incentives for employers to recruit ex-service --
>>>>
>>>>Son, why would incentives be necessary if military job experience is so valuable?
>>>>
>>>
>>>It isn't that the experience is so valuable, but that the service &
>>>employment of Veterans is appreciated and sometimes rewarded.
>>
>>Well, son, your admirers can go after those secure government jobs...my crowd doesn't want them.
>>
>
> And your "crowd" isn't wanted by most self-respecting people so sit in
> the corner & play with yourself for all I care Junior.
Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.
> There is also something known in the U.S. as the Stolen Valor Act. If
> you are caught portray your Military Service falsely in order for
> personal gain you might just end up in prison as well.
No son, leaving bad military jobs off a resume or job application is not a
violation of that law. You dummy.
Kerryn Offord
A few too many negatives..
I think he means lack of credibility makes it difficult for a company to
be profitable.. mind.. there is Microsoft :^)