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For UK's RN, what does "paid off" mean?
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a425couple
Jan 26, 2012, 10:46:57 AM1/26/12
to
I see it fairly often, I have sometimes asked,
but do not seem to understand it.
What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emerald_(D66)
"She was launched on 19 May 1920, and commissioned 14 January 1926.
Emerald went out to the East Indies, 4th Cruiser Squadron,
on commissioning, finally returning home to pay off on 15 July 1933.
After a refit at Chatham, the ship recommissioned for the East Indies
again on 31 August 1934, which tour lasted until September 1937,
on relief by Liverpool. On her return home she paid off to reserve."
So, she was "paid off" not just once (that I do not understand),
but twice?
Meanwhile, of interest, (gotta plan for bad days!)
"Recommissioned for war service, she joined the 12th Cruiser
Squadron on Northern Patrol duties in September 1939. However,
the appearance of German raiders in the Atlantic resulted in her
transfer to Halifax in October, to escort homeward-bound convoys,
where she remained into 1940. Between October 1939 and
August 1940 the ship carried £58 million in gold from Britain
to Canada"
but do not seem to understand it.
What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emerald_(D66)
"She was launched on 19 May 1920, and commissioned 14 January 1926.
Emerald went out to the East Indies, 4th Cruiser Squadron,
on commissioning, finally returning home to pay off on 15 July 1933.
After a refit at Chatham, the ship recommissioned for the East Indies
again on 31 August 1934, which tour lasted until September 1937,
on relief by Liverpool. On her return home she paid off to reserve."
So, she was "paid off" not just once (that I do not understand),
but twice?
Meanwhile, of interest, (gotta plan for bad days!)
"Recommissioned for war service, she joined the 12th Cruiser
Squadron on Northern Patrol duties in September 1939. However,
the appearance of German raiders in the Atlantic resulted in her
transfer to Halifax in October, to escort homeward-bound convoys,
where she remained into 1940. Between October 1939 and
August 1940 the ship carried £58 million in gold from Britain
to Canada"
Peter Skelton
Jan 26, 2012, 11:17:40 AM1/26/12
to
warship finished it's commission, the crew was paid off, and the ship
transferred from the active list (the name for this changed from time
to time) to laid up in ordinary, refit, the disposal list, reserve or
whatever.
Eugene Griessel
Jan 26, 2012, 10:58:01 AM1/26/12
to
back in the old days when crews were recruited piecemeal. Came to
mean whenever the ship goes out of commission for whatever reason.
Eugene L Griessel
The right to die is the only right nature extends to humans. All other
rights are fictions, often more honoured in the breach than the compliance.
Chris
Jan 26, 2012, 3:36:33 PM1/26/12
to
On Jan 26, 10:58 am, Eugene Griessel <eug...@dynagen.co.za> wrote:
>
> When the ship goes into refit or reserve the crew is "paid off" - from
> back in the old days when crews were recruited piecemeal. Came to
> mean whenever the ship goes out of commission for whatever reason.
As I recall from Rodger, _Command of the Ocean_ one of the tricks that
>
> When the ship goes into refit or reserve the crew is "paid off" - from
> back in the old days when crews were recruited piecemeal. Came to
> mean whenever the ship goes out of commission for whatever reason.
the Navy often pulled in the 17th century- when the government
financial stuff was often badly run, was to keep a ship in commission
for years (rather than just for the fighting season and paying off for
the winter), so as to avoid paying the officers and men their due
wages. This had a negative effect on the efficiency of the crew, of
course (for some reason men like getting paid for their jobs) and also
on the ships- since the ships couldn't use the normal winter
maintenance season the ships were in a lower state of physical
condition as well. One of the reasons that the Dutch kept winning the
Anglo-Dutch wars (especially the Dutch Invasion of 1688...) was that
they were able to actually pay their sailors reliably, whereas the RN
couldn't.
Eventually, according to Rodger, the decentralized Dutch system
cracked (each of the United Provinces maintained it's own Admiralty
and fleet, which proved to be too much overhead) and the RN became the
most reputable and trusted institution in England/the UK so
embarrassing things like successful invasions stopped happening.
Chris Manteuffel
Jeff Crowell
Jan 26, 2012, 4:02:12 PM1/26/12
to
a425couple wrote:
>> I see it fairly often, I have sometimes asked,
>> but do not seem to understand it.
>> What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
Peter Skelton wrote:
> The easiest to understand synonym is 'decommissioned'. When an RN
> warship finished it's commission, the crew was paid off, and the ship
> transferred from the active list (the name for this changed from time
> to time) to laid up in ordinary, refit, the disposal list, reserve or
> whatever.
The term is also used in the WWII era, for example in cases
> The easiest to understand synonym is 'decommissioned'. When an RN
> warship finished it's commission, the crew was paid off, and the ship
> transferred from the active list (the name for this changed from time
> to time) to laid up in ordinary, refit, the disposal list, reserve or
> whatever.
where a ship was to go into the dockyard for some extended
period, the crews would be assigned to other ships or shore
stations rather than waiting for that ship to come back out
of the yards.
Adding to Peter's comments, even in modern times sailors
would talk of some event which took place "last commission,"
which in those cases would seemingly be just as accurately
spoken as "last voyage" or "last deployment."
Jeff
--
Murphy's Laws of gunfights:
Shoot the one with the shotgun first.
Eugene Griessel
Jan 26, 2012, 4:21:40 PM1/26/12
to
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 14:02:12 -0700, Jeff Crowell
<jeff.crow...@hp.com> wrote:
>Adding to Peter's comments, even in modern times sailors
>would talk of some event which took place "last commission,"
>which in those cases would seemingly be just as accurately
>spoken as "last voyage" or "last deployment."
Hardly. A commission, in something like a frigate or destroyer in
<jeff.crow...@hp.com> wrote:
>Adding to Peter's comments, even in modern times sailors
>would talk of some event which took place "last commission,"
>which in those cases would seemingly be just as accurately
>spoken as "last voyage" or "last deployment."
peacetime, would last several years and you would pay off only when
the ship went in for an extensive refit. A deployment or "last
voyage" would be a small fraction of a commission.
Eugene L Griessel
Necrophillia: That Uncontrollable Urge To Crack Open A Cold One.
Peter Granzeau
Jan 26, 2012, 5:18:30 PM1/26/12
to
>I see it fairly often, I have sometimes asked,
>but do not seem to understand it.
>What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
>
>From:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emerald_(D66)
>"She was launched on 19 May 1920, and commissioned 14 January 1926.
>Emerald went out to the East Indies, 4th Cruiser Squadron,
>on commissioning, finally returning home to pay off on 15 July 1933.
>After a refit at Chatham, the ship recommissioned for the East Indies
>again on 31 August 1934, which tour lasted until September 1937,
>on relief by Liverpool. On her return home she paid off to reserve."
>
>So, she was "paid off" not just once (that I do not understand),
>but twice?
I think the USN equivalent to "pay off" would be "decomissioned". The
>but do not seem to understand it.
>What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
>
>From:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emerald_(D66)
>"She was launched on 19 May 1920, and commissioned 14 January 1926.
>Emerald went out to the East Indies, 4th Cruiser Squadron,
>on commissioning, finally returning home to pay off on 15 July 1933.
>After a refit at Chatham, the ship recommissioned for the East Indies
>again on 31 August 1934, which tour lasted until September 1937,
>on relief by Liverpool. On her return home she paid off to reserve."
>
>So, she was "paid off" not just once (that I do not understand),
>but twice?
ship has no crew, not even a cadre, aboard. Back in the old days, ships
appear to have been taken out of service and, things being simpler then,
didn't need a crew. The crew was paid to that point, and sent to other
ships. No one in the RN got paid unless he was assigned to one or
another of HM ships, as I understand it--and even now, RN naval bases
operate under a ship's name, I believe, so that naval personnel on the
base may be paid.
Chris
Jan 26, 2012, 5:24:09 PM1/26/12
to
On Jan 26, 5:18 pm, Peter Granzeau <pgranz...@cox.net> wrote:
> No one in the RN got paid unless he was assigned to one or
> another of HM ships, as I understand it--and even now, RN naval bases
> operate under a ship's name, I believe, so that naval personnel on the
> base may be paid.
In the age of sail, enlisted, midshipmen etc. did not get pay unless
> No one in the RN got paid unless he was assigned to one or
> another of HM ships, as I understand it--and even now, RN naval bases
> operate under a ship's name, I believe, so that naval personnel on the
> base may be paid.
assigned, but those on the captain and admiral list would get half-
pay.
Chris Manteuffel
Jeff
Jan 27, 2012, 2:43:32 AM1/27/12
to
the lengthy of which reflected the length of service.
Jeff
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Jan 27, 2012, 5:25:43 AM1/27/12
to
In article
<ae481da3-134c-425f...@hs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
enlistment. The same terms as merchant ships in fact. Men ranking from
midshipmen down would be taken on for a single voyage and paid at the
end of it. Later when it became possible to regularly keep ships at sea
during winter they were paid when the ship was put in ordinary or taken
in hand for a refit. After Spithead some pay was paid when the ship was
in service but this could be years in arrears.
Exceptions to this were officers lieutenant and above who were
permanently enlisted and required to wear uniforms who were retained on
half pay and standing warrant officers. The latter the Carpenter
Sailmaker etc were assigned to a ship when it was put onto the naval
list and could remain until the ship was struck from service. When the
ship was in ordinary they acted as ship keepers.
Ken Young
<ae481da3-134c-425f...@hs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
cman...@gmail.com (Chris) wrote:
> In the age of sail, enlisted, midshipmen etc. did not get pay unless
> assigned, but those on the captain and admiral list would get half-
> pay.
The term dates from the sailing navy when the RN used temporary
> In the age of sail, enlisted, midshipmen etc. did not get pay unless
> assigned, but those on the captain and admiral list would get half-
> pay.
enlistment. The same terms as merchant ships in fact. Men ranking from
midshipmen down would be taken on for a single voyage and paid at the
end of it. Later when it became possible to regularly keep ships at sea
during winter they were paid when the ship was put in ordinary or taken
in hand for a refit. After Spithead some pay was paid when the ship was
in service but this could be years in arrears.
Exceptions to this were officers lieutenant and above who were
permanently enlisted and required to wear uniforms who were retained on
half pay and standing warrant officers. The latter the Carpenter
Sailmaker etc were assigned to a ship when it was put onto the naval
list and could remain until the ship was struck from service. When the
ship was in ordinary they acted as ship keepers.
Ken Young
a425couple
Jan 30, 2012, 10:14:39 PM1/30/12
to
"Peter Skelton" <skelto...@gmail.com> wrote in message...
- "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
-> What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
I thank everyone who helped.
I think I understand better now (but may still prove my ignorance!)
-The easiest to understand synonym is 'decommissioned'.
OK. I think I got it for the ship.
- When an RN warship finished it's commission, the crew was
- paid off,
First with more or less current times.
Am I correct in thinking your RN personel are normally
paid on a routine monthly basis (or some period like that) ?
And that now the term "paid off" really just means their
pay jacket is closed for that station, to be picked up
by the next.
Or, (really fairly slight variation) does it mean the
paymaster officer is on hand to give them cash
or checks for up to that date ?
In olden times, were the officers and crews not
paid AT ALL until the voyage/commission was done?
(Seems like that could make for some real either
sad times for crew during a port call,
or some really sad times for the local merchants
getting their beer etc. raided, and their bar ladies
kidnapped - because these lonely thirsty sailors
had no money their, uh, uh "needs".
- and the ship transferred from the active list
- (the name for this changed from time to time) to
- laid up in ordinary, refit, the disposal list, reserve or
- whatever.
I could be wrong, but I understood, even during
the USA Navy major "refits" (over a year for CVNMs)
that there was still a fair size cadre aboard
(or working at the ship during the day).
Pretty much totally different subject.
If I recall correctly, (PROBABLY NOT!) in early 1970s,
when I was assigned as a paymaster, I counted out cash.
But, a bit later, it was changed to handing out checks.
I admit, I'm not sure. Anyone know?
- "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
-> What does the UK's RN term of "paid off" really mean?
I thank everyone who helped.
I think I understand better now (but may still prove my ignorance!)
-The easiest to understand synonym is 'decommissioned'.
OK. I think I got it for the ship.
- When an RN warship finished it's commission, the crew was
- paid off,
First with more or less current times.
Am I correct in thinking your RN personel are normally
paid on a routine monthly basis (or some period like that) ?
And that now the term "paid off" really just means their
pay jacket is closed for that station, to be picked up
by the next.
Or, (really fairly slight variation) does it mean the
paymaster officer is on hand to give them cash
or checks for up to that date ?
In olden times, were the officers and crews not
paid AT ALL until the voyage/commission was done?
(Seems like that could make for some real either
sad times for crew during a port call,
or some really sad times for the local merchants
getting their beer etc. raided, and their bar ladies
kidnapped - because these lonely thirsty sailors
had no money their, uh, uh "needs".
- and the ship transferred from the active list
- (the name for this changed from time to time) to
- laid up in ordinary, refit, the disposal list, reserve or
- whatever.
I could be wrong, but I understood, even during
the USA Navy major "refits" (over a year for CVNMs)
that there was still a fair size cadre aboard
(or working at the ship during the day).
Pretty much totally different subject.
If I recall correctly, (PROBABLY NOT!) in early 1970s,
when I was assigned as a paymaster, I counted out cash.
But, a bit later, it was changed to handing out checks.
I admit, I'm not sure. Anyone know?
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Jan 31, 2012, 11:15:08 AM1/31/12
to
In article <jg7mb...@news6.newsguy.com>, a425c...@hotmail.com
more than six months or so. When ships were kept in commission for a
year or more there was some pay on account though it was always well in
arrears. As well slops, tobacco and other small luxuries could be bought
from the Purser and paid for with chits for pay owed as well as cash.
Volunteers got a signing on bonus usually paid in cash up front. A major
source of complaint was that wages were often paid by a note on the
Naval Board not cash. These either had to be exchanged at the Naval
Board Offices or sold at a discount to face value.
Surprisingly the worst off were the Captain and the Purser. These had
to keep books of naval funds expended and other legitimate expenses.
They would not be paid anything until these books were proved and if
there were any apparent irregularities could end up waiting years.
Ken Young
(a425couple) wrote:
> In olden times, were the officers and crews not
> paid AT ALL until the voyage/commission was done?
To start with ships were not kept in commission over the winter. So not
> In olden times, were the officers and crews not
> paid AT ALL until the voyage/commission was done?
more than six months or so. When ships were kept in commission for a
year or more there was some pay on account though it was always well in
arrears. As well slops, tobacco and other small luxuries could be bought
from the Purser and paid for with chits for pay owed as well as cash.
Volunteers got a signing on bonus usually paid in cash up front. A major
source of complaint was that wages were often paid by a note on the
Naval Board not cash. These either had to be exchanged at the Naval
Board Offices or sold at a discount to face value.
Surprisingly the worst off were the Captain and the Purser. These had
to keep books of naval funds expended and other legitimate expenses.
They would not be paid anything until these books were proved and if
there were any apparent irregularities could end up waiting years.
Ken Young
Alistair Gunn
Feb 1, 2012, 1:31:26 PM2/1/12
to
In sci.military.naval ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk twisted the electrons to say:
volunteered could get sometimes get that bonus too?
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
> Volunteers got a signing on bonus usually paid in cash up front.
I seem to recall reading, somewhere, that pressed men who retrospectively
volunteered could get sometimes get that bonus too?
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
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