John McCain & Condoleezza Rice
D. Spencer Hines
and Vice President.
Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
Could they win?
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Ray O'Hara
"D. Spencer Hines" <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:gozKj.48$v91...@eagle.america.net...
what about the rumours that your career was ruined by allegations of
pederasty?
J A
> John McCain & Condoleezza Rice as the Republican candidates for President
> and Vice President.
>
> Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
She's reputed to be the most incompetent Natl. Security Council chief
in history; so yeah, why not?
> Could they win?
Hell yes.
But I think the beer heiress barbie doll wife with those space alien
eyes might get a little jealous..
Obama's wife and Condi could have cat fight sistah debates - that
would be good in terms of attracting interest in Phil Donahue again.
a425couple
> John McCain & Condoleezza Rice as the Republican candidates
> for President and Vice President.
> Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
I think it would be a bad idea.
I do not believe she has ever run for any election before
(and there are a number of things that take experience to do well).
I do not think she wants the scrutiny of being on the ticket.
The last eight years have not greatly added to the
general (i.e. nonpartisan moderates) view of her competance.
Although she is very bright, she is not a proven leader.
Jack Linthicum
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote .
But is a proven follower. Got time for an underground campaign
featuring innuendos about a 54 year old single woman?
La N
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wIKdnWjAYoeF82ba...@comcast.com...
She has stated absolutely over and over again that she does not want to run
for this kind of office. Furthermore, enough people are pissed off at her
that I doubt she would get the required votes. OTOH, if she ran, it would
be good news for the Democrats, as it would assure them a win.
As you stated, she's very bright but can be quite emotional under pressure.
Other times, she's very wooden. Not leadership material.
- nilita
La N
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:b556f25f-1404-47bd...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
Yup. She would be an easy target. Not a snowball's chance in hell.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
economy doesn't totally tank.
La N
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3a21865d-2474-454c...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
***************************************
Although the idea of a biracial "dream team" of McCain and Rice gives Hines
a woody, it just ain't gonna happen.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
I've always thought that the first black or woman president would
be a Republican... Colin Powell, Elizabeth Dole, etc. I just might be
wrong...if the economy goes down as badly as it looks, McCain is
toast. If the economy is doing okay, I think he has a better than even
chance.
Jack Linthicum
Tell that to the people who are deciding not to run for Congressional
and Senate seats because this looks like a year of disaster for the
Republicans.
La N
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:501014b9-759c-4107...@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
****************************************
I agree with you. btw, when I was following the leadership race some years
ago of the Republican Party, I was rooting for McCain over Bush. Shame the
skullduggery that took place then which ensured that McCain wouldn't win.
I haven't been following the news lately, but IIRC McCain's main platform is
security and he's pro continuing the war in Iraq. I believe voters now are
waaaay more concerned about the economy than the aforementioned issues.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
Oh, I think the Republicans are going to take a bath in Congress.
That doesn't change my mind about McCain. I think he's toast because
of the economy. I don't see my "what if" to be very likely.
Jack Linthicum
Yes, the first black governor of a southern state or the first black
senator from a similar state. When, like not within the foreseeable
future.
La N
Anyway, American pre-election politicking is hard to watch. As I mentioned
elsewhere, it's like WWF Pro-Wrestling, only bloodier and *real*.
- nilita
deem...@aol.com
wrote:
Both of those have already occurred. You might want to add
"modern" :-)
a425couple
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
(aside - Wow! After a weekend mostly away, I start to work
through favorite ngs., see one post that for whatever reason
inspires me to throw out my humble opinion, and a couple
ngs. later, here it is again - and already has some reponses
that happen to validate mine!
And the planned replacement of my computer - - did not
happen. So with plenty of TLC, curses, life support, etc.
will stumble on a bit longer.)
I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
(Just as a couple decades ago I'd looked hopefully for
Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
stature.) It just did not happen.
Fate? How much is skill (et.al.) and how much is luck (et.al.)??
We all end up having to play the hand we are dealt
(although at times, we are able to do the dealing ourselves!)
((and sometimes you can win with garbage, or lose with great hand!))
Fred J. McCall
:
:She has stated absolutely over and over again that she does not want to run
Quite right. I keep wondering how people keep missing that bit.
:
:Furthermore, enough people are pissed off at her
:that I doubt she would get the required votes.
:
There are no "required votes" to become the candidate for Vice
President. All that's required is that the candidate for President
select you.
:
:As you stated, she's very bright but can be quite emotional under pressure.
:Other times, she's very wooden. Not leadership material.
:
Now you're talking about political skills and speechifying. Is she
really "quite emotional under pressure" or is that just how she
speaks? I tend to vote for the latter.
--
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
will never know.
La N
> " >
> I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
> during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
> might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
> (Just as a couple decades ago I'd looked hopefully for
> Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
> stature.) It just did not happen.
I always liked C. Powell. Unfortunately the aforementioned women would have
to display the intestinal fortitude of Hillary in order to withstand the
blood sport of politicking for the highest office. Unfortunately, if they
did so, they would have to tolerate the same crap that Hillary is receiving.
I'm not saying that I'm a fan of Hill's (I'm not), but a lot of the comments
about/against her are sexist ugly. I think that, thus far, most Americans
prefer to see women in the Oval Office more as genteel first ladies.
>
> Fate? How much is skill (et.al.) and how much is luck (et.al.)??
> We all end up having to play the hand we are dealt
> (although at times, we are able to do the dealing ourselves!)
> ((and sometimes you can win with garbage, or lose with great hand!))
>
>
Ultimately in a democracy you get the leader you deserve. Whatever happens,
you have no choice but to roll with the punches.
- nilita
Fred J. McCall
:
: He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
:the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
:economy doesn't totally tank.
I'm not sure that's a given, although it is certainly the conventional
wisdom.
This is another one of those places where McCain would probably be
better served to listen to his own inner voices rather than the
'politics as usual' crowd.
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
Fred J. McCall
:
: I've always thought that the first black or woman president would
:be a Republican... Colin Powell, Elizabeth Dole, etc. I just might be
:wrong...if the economy goes down as badly as it looks, McCain is
:toast. If the economy is doing okay, I think he has a better than even
:chance.
The question isn't what the economy does now. It's what it's doing in
6 months. I'd hope it'd be on the upswing by then. If it isn't,
there's always the ploy of blaming the (Democrat) Congress...
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden
deem...@aol.com
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> :
> : He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
> :the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
> :economy doesn't totally tank.
> :
>
> I'm not sure that's a given, although it is certainly the conventional
> wisdom.
>
> This is another one of those places where McCain would probably be
> better served to listen to his own inner voices rather than the
> 'politics as usual' crowd.
>
>
That would be nice, but if he picks someone more liberal, that
increases the chance that there will be a conservative
revolt....either a third party run or just staying at home. McCain
needs the conservatives to have a chance. Conservatives also need
McCain, but politics are rarely rational.
Jack Linthicum
Better, living
deem...@aol.com
Jack Linthicum
The conservative movement is slowly dying because its big names are
actually dying. The group called fundamentalists have more community
interests than gay marriage and abortion. They want to Christianize
not politicize.
D. Spencer Hines
We've already HAD an African-American Governor of a Southern state, since
Reconstruction...
Douglas Wilder, of Virginia, a DEMOCRAT served as Governor of Virginia from
1990 to 1994. He is currently Mayor of Richmond, Virginia.
How soon Pogue Linthicum forgets.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
------------------------------------------
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ecf37e4a-42b4-4bb0-b53e-
>> I've always thought that the first black or woman president would
>> be a Republican... Colin Powell, Elizabeth Dole, etc. I just might be
>> wrong...if the economy goes down as badly as it looks, McCain is
>> toast. If the economy is doing okay, I think he has a better than even
>> chance....
D. Spencer Hines
Pogue Linthicum is on a roll.
Douglas Wilder is certainly living and is Mayor of Richmond, Virginia.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2f0dca4e-7ffa-4aa2...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Fred J. McCall
:
:"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:MKadnU5KrOs04mba...@comcast.com...
:> " >
:> I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
:> during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
:> might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
:> (Just as a couple decades ago I'd looked hopefully for
:> Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
:> stature.) It just did not happen.
:
:I always liked C. Powell. Unfortunately the aforementioned women would have
:to display the intestinal fortitude of Hillary in order to withstand the
:blood sport of politicking for the highest office. Unfortunately, if they
:did so, they would have to tolerate the same crap that Hillary is receiving.
:I'm not saying that I'm a fan of Hill's (I'm not), but a lot of the comments
:about/against her are sexist ugly. I think that, thus far, most Americans
:prefer to see women in the Oval Office more as genteel first ladies.
:
You mean as opposed to them being power-hungry bitches on wheels?
Yeah, I suppose you're right there.
I would like Hillary even less if she were male. She is all the worst
parts of the Clinton political machine with none of the charming parts
(which Bill seems to have left somewhere, as well).
--
You are
What you do
When it counts.
Fred J. McCall
:
And this is the conventional wisdom. But McCain also needs the
moderates and he won't get them by running too far to the right.
NEITHER party seems to realize that it's the 'swing middle' that
elects Presidents and that toadying to the 'party base' simply won't
get you into the White House and will alienate the very votes you need
to win.
--
"Most people don't realize it, but ninety percent of morality is based
on comfort. Incinerate hundreds of people from thirty thousand feet
up and you'll sleep like a baby afterward. Kill one person with a
bayonet and your dreams will never be sweet again."
-- John Rain, "Rain Storm"
deem...@aol.com
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ::"a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I really think that it wouldn't bother Bill too much if she lost.
Kind of an ego thing?
D. Spencer Hines
[slipperiness] and ENDURANCE.
All those years she was convinced how much smarter she was than he blinded
her to those truths.
The Great Awakening.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a6ebf81f-12ba-4f2a...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
deem...@aol.com
> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> :On Apr 8, 10:30 am, Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote::> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> :>
> :> :
> :> : He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
> :> :the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
> :> :economy doesn't totally tank.
> :> :
> :>
> :> I'm not sure that's a given, although it is certainly the conventional
> :> wisdom.
> :>
> :> This is another one of those places where McCain would probably be
> :> better served to listen to his own inner voices rather than the
> :> 'politics as usual' crowd.
> :>
> :
> : That would be nice, but if he picks someone more liberal, that
> :increases the chance that there will be a conservative
> :revolt....either a third party run or just staying at home. McCain
> :needs the conservatives to have a chance. Conservatives also need
> :McCain, but politics are rarely rational.
> :
>
> And this is the conventional wisdom. But McCain also needs the
> moderates and he won't get them by running too far to the right.
True, but I don't think a Veep candidate will cause a lot of
moderates to shy away, while I think the Veep candidate will mollify
many conservatives.
>
> NEITHER party seems to realize that it's the 'swing middle' that
> elects Presidents and that toadying to the 'party base' simply won't
> get you into the White House and will alienate the very votes you need
> to win.
>
>
I think this is our biggest political problem. Since most districts
are slam dunks for one party or the other, the biggest challenge is in
the primaries. That's why we tend to get hyper-Dems/Reps who are less
likely to compromise. The same even holds true in Senatorial and
Presidential primaries....the candidates, in order to get a decent
start, have to lean too far to the extremes.
We need term limits and a viable third party.
TMOliver
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
> "deem...@aol.com" <deem...@aol.com> wrote:
> :
> : He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
> :the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
> :economy doesn't totally tank.
> :
>
> I'm not sure that's a given, although it is certainly the conventional
> wisdom.
>
> This is another one of those places where McCain would probably be
> better served to listen to his own inner voices rather than the
> 'politics as usual' crowd.
>
I'm of Fred's general perspective, as much as anything because his views are
not formed in steel from some imagined political philosophy or leaning, but
are based on reality.
1) McCain is unlikely to select Rice, moving to (at least visibly) distance
himself from Bush and the current administration (just as Karl Rove won't
get many national job offers for the next few years, but make scads of cash
consulting in several conservative states which are unlikely to be dominated
by Theocracy expectations, the incredible nightmare of some here, sort of
the Black Helicopters of the Left).
2) He's likely to pick one who looks to be able to deliver a "key" state or
important block of votes. From Arizona and with a moderate stance on
immigration, he doesn't need a Hispanic - not that there's a high profile
Republican one available. Look for his choice to be a young Midwesterner.
3) Reports of the prospect of any revolt by the Theocrats or the Hard
Righters are enormously over rated, over sold and over blown. Some may not
be enthusiastic and won't pound the pavement. A few may sit home,
re-foiling their helmets, but revolt? Optimistic BS by the Left who see a
bogeyman around ever corner they own, and expect similar treachery from the
other side.
The election will be decided by a combination of whatever appeal may be
added by his VP selection, and the two bigger bits of
guesswork.....(attempting to project the unthinkable in an era of political
correctness)
How many American voters not already likely to vote for McCain will not vote
for an African American candidate, even an appealing one (and where they
live will be of paramount importance because of the electoral college)?
The other side of the coin, a nomination of Hillary, brings a slightly
different question, i.e. how many prospective voters not already voting for
McCain will not vote for (a) Hillary or (b) any woman?
While neither group may be large enough to allow a Repub to carry
Massachusetts, ray might be surprised by polling on the streets of some
cities in the area with which I'm familiar. I can think of several voting
boxes in Boston and New Bedford where Obama won't run well. The big
question comes in places like Ohio or those states where the emotions of a
small percentage of voters might move a slug of electoral votes.
TMO
Jack Linthicum
> Dead Wrong Again...
>
> Pogue Linthicum is on a roll.
>
> Douglas Wilder is certainly living and is Mayor of Richmond, Virginia.
>
> DSH
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>
> news:2f0dca4e-7ffa-4aa2...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Yes, the first black governor of a southern state or the first black
> >> > senator from a similar state. When, like not within the foreseeable
> >> > future.
>
> >> Both of those have already occurred. You might want to add
> >> "modern" :-)
>
> > Better, living
Wilder is 77 years old, politically dead. as is Edward Brooke at 89
deem...@aol.com
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote ...
Mostly agree....I still think he'll pick someone a bit more
conservative. I'll still say that if the economy sucks, he's toast.
Even distancing himself from Bush won't help. I could be wrong, but
I've been wrong before.
Also, Boston is the second most racist place I've ever spent a
decent amount of time in....South Carolina is first.
Dan
>> for President and Vice President.
>> Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
>
> I do not believe she has ever run for any election before
> (and there are a number of things that take experience to do well).
> I do not think she wants the scrutiny of being on the ticket.
> The last eight years have not greatly added to the
> general (i.e. nonpartisan moderates) view of her competance.
>
> Although she is very bright, she is not a proven leader.
>
>
>
But McBush and Condie would make such a cute couple... Does the
electorate consider anything else?
Dan
PaPaPeng
<a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
>during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
>might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
>(Just as a couple decades ago I'd looked hopefully for
>Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
>stature.) It just did not happen.
A rerun of this assessment is in order.
She's the most powerful black woman in the world. Why can't I stand
the sight of her?
Candace Allen has spent her whole life cheering on fellow
African-Americans who have battled their way to the top. Yet the
extraordinary career of Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state,
fills her only with revulsion and anger. Here she explains why
Wednesday December 5, 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2222067,00.html
The Guardian
I am African-American. We are a sentimental people in the main and we
tend to track our own. We are aware of others of colour who cross our
spaces. We look around asking: "How did she/he come to be here/there?
Is his/her story extraordinary, coincidental or totally banal?"
At 80 years old, my dentist father has been a desegregator all of his
adult life, both professionally and domestically. Although raised in
Richmond, Virginia, he chose to rear his family up north, first in
Boston, then in a Connecticut suburb of New York. When I call him to
ask how things are going during the first week of the US Open, he
tells me that the Williams sisters are doing fine, as is James Blake,
and there are a young boy and girl playing in their first Open who
won't get too far this time but are looking mighty good. Unsaid, I
know the nature of the report he's going to give; unsaid, he knows
what I want to hear: stories about black people coming on to
traditional white fields of play and not just holding their own but
kicking ass and taking names. Smiles, pride, a fist in the air.
So why the viscerally negative reaction, my gut literally roiling with
distaste and disappointment, when I look at Condoleezza Rice, the
first African-American female to be secretary of state of the world's
one remaining superpower?
She is a powerful woman, often coming first in lists of the world's
most powerful women. Unlike Hillary Clinton and Oprah Winfrey, she is
seldom referred to by her first name only: as with Angela Merkel and
Margaret Thatcher, she gets both her names. Her eyes, intelligent,
usually veiled, often glittering hard, give up nothing. Her hair is
now less iron-solid than it was but, as with Thatcher and Merkel, it
is generally unmovable. And there is the posture: ramrod straight. The
chin is held high even seemingly when notes are consulted, but that is
very seldom, because Rice functions in public almost invariably
without notes. A woman of impressive intellect - vast, profound and/or
well-trained - holding her own, be it among or before the most
powerful white men in the world. Again and again, she is generally the
only non-secretarial black woman to be seen in such environments.
Mercilessly kicking ass, taking names. Ready.
(A cultural footnote: back in the day, before any kind of mixing,
before even Motown was heard on white radio stations,
African-Americans had a play on the word "ready". If someone acted a
fool, the jibe was: "He/she ain't ready." Not ready for responsibility
or integration, ie interaction with white folks.)
So why am I so loth to look in her direction? She is not unattractive;
our ages and backgrounds are reasonably similar. Yet I must force
myself to look at her. She is family, attenuated family, deplored
family maybe, but family none the less. I do not have to condone or
even explain family misdeeds.
But I take her complicity in what I consider the most disastrous US
administration in modern times very personally. I want to take her by
the shoulders and shake, if not throttle her. But very much more, I
want to know, why? Why the Republicans and these Republicans? Why the
rigidity? Why the hubris? Why so little compassion for those less
blessed than yourself? So intelligent, so capable ... how could you
get it so wrong?
It is with these questions in mind that I came to Marcus Mabry's
biography of Rice. A graduate of Stanford University during Rice's
time there, like her a student of Soviet Russia, later a fellow of the
Council on Foreign Relations, Mabry - formerly chief of correspondents
at Newsweek magazine - is supremely equipped to examine his subject.
He is also African-American and so gained access to family and friends
who would have been far more circumspect with a white person.
Not unexpectedly I learn that Rice seemed to have popped "ready" from
the womb. She was born in Birmingham, Alabama in November 1954, her
parents coming from two families of strivers. Of modest financial
means, but fierce pride, discipline and determination, her kin had
made their mark and way in a city known for some of the most virulent
racism in the old South. When John Rice Sr decided to abandon the
cotton fields for book learning, he converted from Methodist to
Presbyterian when he learned that the nearby Stillman Institute in
Tuscaloosa, Alabama, offered scholarships for black men wanting to
become ministers in that faith.
His son followed in his footsteps. On gaining his degree in 1949,
Condoleezza's father, John Jr, moved to Birmingham, and met and
married Angelena Ray, a teacher of music, science, maths and oratory
at a local black high school. John Rice Jr was a huge bear of a man,
gregarious and warm. The lighter-skinned Rays were proud and clannish,
needing no one but their own.
An only child because her mother couldn't imagine dividing her love,
Condoleezza was her family's perfect legacy. Reading music from the
age of three, never fidgeting or dreamy, she was initially
home-schooled and not allowed to play with the girl across the street
unless her mother could watch her though open doors.
The US edition of Mabry's book is entitled Twice as Good. I expect
that this was discarded for its lack of cultural resonance here in the
UK, but among striving African-American families "twice as good" was
the order of all days. We knew that good wasn't enough to achieve in
the white world and many of us were reared with what Mabry calls the
"affection of expectation". I myself did well in school. I knew this
was expected of me, but I was also enjoying myself. However, when at
13 I learned that many of my (white) classmates were getting paid for
their A grades, I ran this by my father. His response was: "You don't
get paid to do your best. That's your job." I wasn't surprised (though
I wouldn't have minded the extra quarters).
In Rice's upbringing things went far further. An accomplished
classical pianist who spent hours practising every day, when she
wished to play one of the Supremes in a school talent show, her father
dismissed it as common. She would tap dance instead, and although
Condoleezza had never tap danced before, she got by. She was being
trained for solo stardom.
These were the years when the civil rights movement was at its height
and particularly lethal in what was dubbed "Bombingham". In addition
to the bombings, beatings, dogs, water hoses and mass arrests were all
too frequent, but although John Rice was known for mentoring the youth
of his community, neither he nor the Rays held with the collective
mass protests led by Martin Luther King and his lieutenants. They were
practical people, realists who believed in the power of diligently
applied individual will to change one's situation and improve one's
lot, and had no desire to be seen as part of a group - at least not
this group.
Participants in marches were lower class, in their opinion and, most
particularly, John Rice could not condone the morality of the city's
famous children's crusade, when hundreds upon hundreds of black
children left school and were jailed for marching against civic
directive. He would not allow his daughter to participate, but he
drove her downtown to observe from the safety of their car. He perched
her on his shoulders outside a fenced outdoor detainment camp. These
are images to be reckoned with, the treasured special child insulated
from harm within the considerable steel of a 1960s American automobile
and observing world-challenging turmoil from the eyrie of her father's
high and ample shoulders.
Via her father's hard work, the Rice family's prospects improved, and
in 1968 they moved to Denver, Colorado, where John's graduate studies
at the University of Denver resulted in an administrative appointment
at that school. For the first time the family were living, working and
going to school in a white environment.
After a period of readjustment, Rice continued her familiar pattern of
academic excellence combined with the solitary disciplines of piano
and now figure skating training as well. Then, in the summer after her
second year at Denver, came her first crisis of confidence, when she
attended the music school of the Aspen Music Festival. Up to that
point, Rice had been dedicating countless hours of practice toward her
career goal of becoming a classical pianist, but at Aspen she
encountered students far younger than she who could read by sight
things that had taken her an entire year to master. Not wanting to be
mediocre, she decided to change course.
Her teacher was not surprised. He had recognised early on that
although Rice was technically competent, she was too emotionally
detached to be a great musician. Rice's later reaction to queries
about losing the dream of her early years were words that had by then
become her mantra: "I don't do life crises. I really don't. Life's too
short. Get over it. Move on to the next thing."
That next thing was disciplined study of the Soviet Union, first at
Denver University, then at Notre Dame University for a masters degree,
then back to Denver for a brief interlude, and finally on to Stanford
with a predoctoral fellowship. She charmed all whom she encountered.
She was competent, tireless and a pleasure to be around. She was also
an African-American woman shining in an unexpected field, something
that worked very much to her advantage during a time of affirmative
action.
A pause to consider what Rice's years of higher education were and
what they were not. Nothing in her educational progress seemed to
diminish her family-inculcated feeling of distinction, but why was
there no impulse to push the educational envelope by attending more
competitive schools? Yes, she was young when she entered Denver, with
all the sheltering, probably younger than her years, and after the
loss of her musical dreams and the finding of a political science
mentor at Denver University (Madeleine Albright's father), one can
understand why she chose to complete her undergraduate studies at
home. But with all this academic self-confidence, why was there no
desire for graduate study in the Ivy League or Berkeley or the
University of Chicago, to hone her intellectual skills via challenge
from those at least her equal? Her father was a university
administrator concerned with affirmative action. She would have known
that elite institutions were welcoming qualified African-American
students. Did she eschew the possibility of being just another smart
black girl whose gifts might not stand out so magnificently with other
smart black girls about, black girls from equally, far more and far
less supportive environments - the academic equivalent of Aspen, in
fact?
Rice's university years were a time of tumult on elite American
campuses, anti-Vietnam war and pro-Black Nationalist strikes,
teach-ins and demonstrations. It was chaotic, time-consuming and, yes,
I can attest, time-wasting to some degree. For one programmed for
ordered perfection, such an environment might have been repellent; but
in the unruly hair and dogmas, the disorderly passions, was a
provocative creativity as students probed the meaning of being
American and human in changing times. From her eyries in Denver and
South Bend, Indiana, where the greatest passion was for football and
most black students were on sports scholarships just trying to hold
their own, Rice was above that messy fray, undistracted, not having to
justify her decision not to be part of any group to folk who would
have kept on asking, not having to defend her ideas before those of a
similar background who had the abilities to question her worth. She
was thus able to reinforce her steely belief that nobody was her
intellectual equal, certainly no person of colour in her peer group.
Time and again in interviews, Rice maintains that despite the manifold
physical threats to black people in Birmingham - and even the death of
one of her school friends in the infamous church bombing of 1963 - it
was not rabid racists who struck the most fear into her heart (at age
eight) but the Cuban missile crisis the year before. In 1968, when she
was 13, it was not the assassination of Martin Luther King that tore
at her soul but the Soviet suppression of the Prague Spring. Nothing
Mabry or any other questioner has suggested has ever induced her to
sway from this stance.
True to his journalistic calling, Mabry does not editorialise
inordinately on this point, but he is far younger than Rice (and me).
I am sure he has done his homework, and he is bound to have heard many
tales of those horrible weeks in 68 during the course of his young
life, but not having been around then he cannot know in his gut how
the death of Dr King had such a visceral impact on Americans, both
black and white, who weren't spawn of the devil. To claim more concern
for an unknown foreign people thousands of miles away when, regardless
of your family's political notions, you have heard this man's
eloquence in defence of your freedom and personhood, when all around
you people are heaving with grief, anger and despair, bespeaks a
dishonesty of colossal dimensions.
Rice was not alone in her desire to stand out from the rank and file
of a debased minority. Many of us did this. We studied Chinese,
Arabic, European painting, Indonesian architecture, Hindu cosmogony
and mushrooms. We were well aware of our exceptionalism - you couldn't
not be with white professors and students wondering what you were
doing in unusual places, often to our faces - and eager to push wide
the bounds of what people thought we could do. But by and large we
felt it unnecessary to go to Rice's lengths to shore up our exception.
Or maybe she is being truthful and thus displaying a lack of human
empathy that is even more disturbing, indeed smacks of the
sociopathic.
Rice's appointment to Stanford in 1981 (as an assistant professor in
political science) was affirmative action in the best sense. She was
not, on paper, the most qualified for the appointment - her colour and
gender had tipped the scales in her favour - but once in situ she ran
so fast, far and well that she left her peers in the dust. She was a
dynamic and well-liked teacher, an ever-prepared and charismatic
speaker. In 1984, she was noticed at a conference on the future of the
cold war by Brent Scowcroft, the former general who was soon to be
National Security Council advisor to President George Bush Sr. In
1989, he brought her to Washington as the National Security Council
director of Soviet and east-European affairs in Bush Sr's
administration. In so doing, Rice became an integral player in the
reunification of Germany and the denouement of the Soviet empire,
distinguishing herself on the international stage.
Though Stanford's campus felt small upon her return in 1991, her
professional life continued as one success after another. She wanted
corporate experience and, via her Republican contacts, was appointed
to the executive boards of Chevron, Hewlett Packard, Transamerica and
the International Advisory Council of JP Morgan. She became a paid
consultant for ABC News on Soviet affairs, and in 1992 was appointed
provost of Stanford University, the youngest in its history and, of
course, the first to be African-American.
In 1952, when Alabama's Democratic party was not allowing black voter
registration, its Republican party had welcomed John Rice into its
fold, and he had always told his daughter to think Republican. Each
Republican was an individual, not part of a group, while in 1980 the
Democratic presidential nominee Walter Mondale was still
characterising black people as hapless victims, at least in Rice's
eyes. Infuriated and repelled, she voted for Ronald Reagan, attracted
by his strength, and saying: "I'd rather be ignored than patronised."
While she never seemed an ideological Republican prior to her time
with Bush Sr, upon her return to Stanford, many of her friends - who,
interestingly, are in the main far more leftwing than she is -
detected a hardening in her approach to issues such the affirmative
action that had greatly assisted her own rise. She was also extremely
autocratic. She was intelligent; she was always right. She believed
deeply that she was God's instrument, guided by His will. Despite her
inexperience as a manager, she felt that compromise and
coalition-building were an unnecessary waste of time. She could be
ruthless. She accomplished much, was also feared - and, of course, she
was exceptional.
There had never been much room in Rice's life for relationships, but
she was something of a flirt in her first years away from home. She
was partial to football players and most attracted to the bad boys
among them. This is not so surprising. For someone loth to share the
inner workings of her heart and mind, bad boys are ideal. Bad boys
titillate, make you feel daring by following their leads, but with
their tendency towards narcissism they aren't going to probe very deep
beyond what they see. They are not worrying about the truth in
themselves so they are not going to search for the truth in you.
In 1998, accepting an invitation from Bush to come to Kennebunkport,
Maine, to meet his son George W, Rice encountered the quintessential
bad boy, with a near-direct avenue to the heart of American power.
They clicked. They more than clicked. They both considered themselves
outsiders. He admired her brains, she his leadership instincts and
"compassion-ate conservatism". They shared a sense of humour and a
love of sports. And the rest is our current history.
Originally drafted in to school the second George in foreign policy
and to manage the coterie of advisors dubbed the Vulcans, Rice and her
exemplary exceptionalism became a key weapon in the overall campaign.
Crowds loved her, her charm, her charisma, her life's example of the
power of individual will. When the election in 2000 was finessed in
his favour, it was only natural that Bush would want Condi by his
side. During the first term she was National Security advisor; in the
second she is the secretary of state.
As with his subject's earlier life, Mabry details the progress of
Rice's involvement with Bush Jr with cogent application - her varying
levels of success in outmanoeuvring the administration's behemoths of
malice, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney; her continuing and steadfast
belief in God and in herself and in the man to whom, say family and
friends, she can't say no; the continuing and steadfast refusal even
now, after four years of Iraqi debacle, to concede misguided
decisions, let alone failure.
The question that can be asked is this: is this continuing and
steadfast refusal to go off script because she won't, or because she
is not able? Having always been insulated from the chaotic mix of the
world by her family and then through her own choices, having never
cultivated the virtues of spontaneity and creative thinking beyond the
goals of careerism, Rice formulated her ideas of power through a very
narrow prism. She is not alone in this. Regrettably, few foreign
policy advisors in many governments have taken the time to learn the
workings of hearts and minds operating on bases other than their own.
Unfortunately for Rice, her time at the helm has coincided with the
splintering of political theories of what works and what does not.
Because of this, she was ill-equipped to guide her feckless leader
through so shape- shifting a time.
In reaching so high, her exceptionalism could no longer be judged by
the mere fact that she had reached such a pinnacle, but by how she
performed when she got there. The working consensus at this point in
2007 is that she is working more efficiently at the State Department
than at the National Security Council, no longer in such physical and
symbiotic closeness to her employer, but that these will be looked
upon as embarrassingly tainted years and in this she will have been an
integral factor.
One could ask, why the moral outrage? Rice has become a politician and
this is said to be the way politicians behave. But that would be
forgetting the holy shroud of morality that drapes about the shoulders
of American society. We are meant to be a nation conceived in liberty
via the blessings of God. Is not one of the first tenants of America's
God, and Rice's Christian belief, to protect the common welfare and
give succour to the less fortunate?
I may be sentimental, but African-American sentimentality is but
American sentimentality. Creating and trading on her exceptionalism,
Rice has gone far further than most of us. Is this proof of her
superiority, her willingness to adapt, or both? Despite her
disassociation from the life and messages of Martin Luther King, she
is the epitome of his wish for his children that they be judged "not
by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character". In
this, most certainly, if not in all that she might have imagined,
Condoleezza Rice has succeeded.
· Candace Allen's first novel, Valaida, was published by Virago in
2004. She studied at Harvard University and was the first
African-American female member of the Directors Guild of America.
Les Cargill
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> :
> :"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> :news:MKadnU5KrOs04mba...@comcast.com...
> :> " >
> :> I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
> :> during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
> :> might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
> :> (Just as a couple decades ago I'd looked hopefully for
> :> Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
> :> stature.) It just did not happen.
> :
> :I always liked C. Powell. Unfortunately the aforementioned women would have
> :to display the intestinal fortitude of Hillary in order to withstand the
> :blood sport of politicking for the highest office. Unfortunately, if they
> :did so, they would have to tolerate the same crap that Hillary is receiving.
> :I'm not saying that I'm a fan of Hill's (I'm not), but a lot of the comments
> :about/against her are sexist ugly. I think that, thus far, most Americans
> :prefer to see women in the Oval Office more as genteel first ladies.
> :
>
> You mean as opposed to them being power-hungry bitches on wheels?
> Yeah, I suppose you're right there.
>
> I would like Hillary even less if she were male.
http://logo.cafepress.com/1/356074.2546501.JPG
I don't know exactly why that works, but....
> She is all the worst
> parts of the Clinton political machine with none of the charming parts
> (which Bill seems to have left somewhere, as well).
>
We seem to work very hard guaranteeing that we will get the
worst possible candidates. "Lie to me, baby...."
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> On Apr 8, 9:42 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:3a21865d-2474-454c...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> John McCain & Condoleezza Rice as the Republican candidates for President
>>> and Vice President.
>>> Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
>>> DSH
>>> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>> He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
>> the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
>> economy doesn't totally tank.
>>
>>
>> Although the idea of a biracial "dream team" of McCain and Rice gives Hines
>> a woody, it just ain't gonna happen.
>>
>> - nilita
>
> be a Republican... Colin Powell, Elizabeth Dole, etc. I just might be
> wrong...if the economy goes down as badly as it looks,
I would be very surprised to see the present economic conditions persist
beyond the next couple of months. Be the first down Q3 since
about 1980 in an election year.
http://www.frbsf.org/economics/conferences/0303/gdp.pdf
> McCain is
> toast. If the economy is doing okay, I think he has a better than even
> chance.
--
Les Cargill
D. Spencer Hines
news:47fc13d0$0$1080$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> We seem to work very hard guaranteeing that we will get the
> worst possible candidates. "Lie to me, baby...."
No...
John McCain is not lying to us...
He's a straight talker.
La N
"TMOliver" <tmoliv...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message
news:47fbabec$0$17350$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
I wonder how many potential voters are just going to stay home that day.
- nilita
Andrew Swallow
> On Apr 8, 10:10 am, "a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote .
>>
>>> John McCain & Condoleezza Rice as the Republican candidates
>>> for President and Vice President.
>>> Would that be a Good Idea or a Bad Idea?
>> I do not believe she has ever run for any election before
>> (and there are a number of things that take experience to do well).
>> I do not think she wants the scrutiny of being on the ticket.
>> The last eight years have not greatly added to the
>> general (i.e. nonpartisan moderates) view of her competance.
>>
>> Although she is very bright, she is not a proven leader.
>
> featuring innuendos about a 54 year old single woman?
Who is in record as calling the President her husband.
Andrew Swallow
J A
> "Les Cargill" <lcarg...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> news:47fc13d0$0$1080$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
> > We seem to work very hard guaranteeing that we will get the
> > worst possible candidates. "Lie to me, baby...."
>
> No...
>
> John McCain is not lying to us...
>
> He's a straight talker.
Well, I guess he tries, with "truths" like this, who needs lies...
McCain's chief economic adviser is former Texas Senator Phil Gramm.
In 2000, then Senator Gramm pushed through a law written by industry
lawyers, that removed regulation on a large swath of murky financial
instruments - the type which wrecked Bear Stearns investment bank and
have recently been requiring extraordinary market interventions by
the
US central bank.
Gramm's wife was then the head of the commission which regulated
futures trading. Sen. Gramm left the Senate for greener pastures,
after getting the above mentioned bill through.
His great expertise at financial matters landed Gramm a job at the
Swiss bank UBS, which has recently had massive losses in the area of
the above mentioned murky financial instruments.
During his Presidential run in the late '80's, when speaking on the
Senate floor, Sen. Gramm would repeatedly inject an emphatic "ahh
believe" in his speaking, as code to Christian fundamentalists that
he
would inject their views into government. Maybe he got his financial
insights from the holy Jebus hisself.
It was this genre of the god fearing Gramm's deregulated murky
financial instruments, that facilitated the selling and reselling of
huge numbers of usurious first and second mortgages.
These had high front end fees and "time bomb" re-payment features,
and
have caused the current wave of foreclosures and US economic
problems.
Nobody who had insight into these mortgages would want to actually
hold them as investments - they had to be passed along to dummies.
If it were not for the financial debacle caused by the deregulation
bill that McCain's corrupt and stupid economic adviser pushed through
Congress in 2000, the US would probably have a fairly strong economy
right now.
To increase his economic knwoledge, McCain is reading Alan
Greenspan's
biography (he was the former US central bank chief).
Greenspan's prolonged inaction during the period running up to our
current financial / economic problem is widely thought to have
abetted
the corruption and malfeasance causing it.
McCain graduated near the bottom of his Naval Acamdemy class, and is
regarded by Senate staffers as a dim bulb. He'll probably want lots
of
advisers with financial expertise around him. The military stuff he's
got covered hisself.
Lux et mas lucks - we're gona need it ;-)
Jack Linthicum
>
> > :
> > :"a425couple" <a425cou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
The perfect politician has been born
Jack Linthicum
> "TMOliver" <tmoliverjr...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message
>
> news:47fbabec$0$17350$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>
>
>
>
>
Or turn out to vote their conscience?
La N
I'd vote for her. Maybe not worship her.
- nilita
La N
I'd vote for Hillary just to bug you guys ...;)
- nilita
La N
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:b6a75606-a258-4cf1...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Speaking of "conscience" ... a couple pretty high-ranking servicemen ... how
did the Colonel die? RIP, men, and my heart goes out to their loved ones
....
Latest US deaths in Iraq 4-9
Army Pfc. Shane D. Penley, age 19, Sauk Village, Illinois
Army Staff Sgt. Emanuel Pickett, 34, Teachey, North Carolina
Army Capt. Ulises Burgos-Cruz, 29, Puerto Rico
Army Spc. Matthew T. Morris, 23, Cedar Park, Texas
Army Col. Stephen K. Scott, 54, New Market, Alabama
Army Maj Stuart A. Wolfer, 36, Coral Springs, Florida
Source: Defense Dept./USA Today
Total dead: 4,025
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
The only way a brave field garde can die in this war, killed by a
mortar attack while exercising on a treadmill in the Green Zone.
Alabama loses another soldier
Col. Stephen K. Scott
Another Alabama soldier has died in Iraq. Army Col. Stephen K. Scott
of New Market, just outside of Huntsville, was killed on April 6 as he
was exercising on a treadmill in Baghdad's green zone during a mortar
attack.
Scott, 54, was serving at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad where he was
working with Iraqi leaders on weapons intelligence and defense. Two
other soldiers also were killed during the attack.
Scott, who grew up in St. Louis, Mo., lived in Alabama for 12 years
while he worked at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville. Since October 2005,
he was in Washington, D.C., working at the Pentagon until he went to
Iraq to oversee the transition of security forces to the Iraqi
government.
He has two grown daughters and a 1-year-old grandson. Scott spent two-
thirds of his life serving in the military, joining the Army at age
18. From then, the military, fast cars and family became the focus on
his life. In Huntsville he kept a large collection of cars and
motorcycles. From the time he was young, he loved to drive his cars
fast, family members said.
Fred J. McCall
:
:"TMOliver" <tmoliv...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message
By the time we get there, I would bet damned few of them. I expect
another record turnout this time around.
The folks who stay home are not typically the 'party base' folks. I
think the continual public concern about the religious right types
staying home because McCain isn't loony enough is preposterous.
The folks who generally stay home are what I refer to as 'the
disgusted middle'. They generally stay home because the national
candidates are both too far toward the extremes of the political
spectrum and the race gets nasty. They stay home on a 'pox on all
their houses' feeling.
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
La N
Jayzus Murphy. Not even the gym in the Green Zone is safe anymore.
Well, anyway, currently I'm listening to Gen. Petraeus; and, to his credit,
he says the situation in Iraq remains "complicated".
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
Too complicated to measure when we could leave, too complicated to
tell how long we should stay. Report in September, just like every
other year.
deem...@aol.com
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> :news:47fbabec$0$17350$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> :>
Which allows the loonies to decide the election. Ain't life a b*tch?
Fred J. McCall
:
:Speaking of "conscience" ... a couple pretty high-ranking servicemen ... how
:did the Colonel die? RIP, men, and my heart goes out to their loved ones
:....
:
:Latest US deaths in Iraq 4-9
:
:Army Pfc. Shane D. Penley, age 19, Sauk Village, Illinois
:
:Army Staff Sgt. Emanuel Pickett, 34, Teachey, North Carolina
:
:Army Capt. Ulises Burgos-Cruz, 29, Puerto Rico
:
:Army Spc. Matthew T. Morris, 23, Cedar Park, Texas
:
:Army Col. Stephen K. Scott, 54, New Market, Alabama
:
:Army Maj Stuart A. Wolfer, 36, Coral Springs, Florida
:
:Source: Defense Dept./USA Today
:
:Total dead: 4,025
Another typical "Aww, I'm so sorry for their families... MORE DEAD
... MORE DEAD ... MORE DEAD ... YAY!" posting from the political left.
Ugly to the bone, I tell you...
--
"Der Feige droht nur, wo er sicher ist."
--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
te...@tiglath.net
>
> Ugly to the bone, I tell you...
>
No doubt. We saw your picture.
Wake up and scream ugly, I call it, NoGall.
BigRedWingsFan
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:auipv3t29csm427en...@4ax.com...
She sounds more and more like Le'Turd and I2PeeTheBed every day if you ask
me.
Hal
home and abroad. She will always be Condi 'mushroom clouds' Rice,
stalwart Bush lackey.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/08/le.00.html
Hal
Jack Wang
On 4/9/08 6:48 PM, in article
fd0d723d-f6ef-403e...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com, "Hal"
<Spam...@gmail.com> wrote:
She's too 'academic' for a politician. I always feel she will not be good at
handling random and sometimes totally Irrelevant questions on campaign
trail. She emits the vibe of a grown-up nerd, very mature, very polished,
but nevertheless still a nerd. We all know how well nerds do when It comes
to attract voters, or people of any sort.
Les Cargill
Ms. Rice constructed the Plan B the Bush Administration is now
operating under. See "Bush's War" on "Frontline". She was largely
out of the loop with respect to PLlan A. She and Colin Powell got
end run so many times...
Had she not done so,. what is a minor embarassment could have been an
all out disaster.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
That's a training issue.
> She emits the vibe of a grown-up nerd, very mature, very polished,
> but nevertheless still a nerd. We all know how well nerds do when It comes
> to attract voters, or people of any sort.
>
NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDS!
http://www.horrordvds.com/reviews/misc/pictures/nerds.jpg
This is true, and why we always seem to end up with Zapp Brannigan
or Phil Ken Sebben.
--
Les Cargill
Jack Linthicum
Speaking of "all out disasters", can one imagine who the unnamed
"choreographer" was in these discussions?
"The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation
techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the
interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number
of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic."
"... this is the first time sources have disclosed that a handful of
the most senior advisers in the White House explicitly approved the
details of the program. According to multiple sources, it was members
of the Principals Committee that not only discussed specific plans and
specific interrogation methods, but approved them."
"According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting:
"Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not
judge this kindly.""
"Then-National Security Advisor Rice, sources said, was decisive.
Despite growing policy concerns -- shared by Powell -- that the
program was harming the image of the United States abroad, sources say
she did not back down, telling the CIA: "This is your baby. Go do it."
"
Sources: Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation'
Detailed Discussions Were Held About Techniques to Use on al Qaeda
Suspects
By JAN CRAWFORD GREENBURG, HOWARD L. ROSENBERG and ARIANE de VOGUE
April 9, 2008--
In dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House, the
most senior Bush administration officials discussed and approved
specific details of how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be
interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, sources tell ABC
News.
The so-called Principals who participated in the meetings also
approved the use of "combined" interrogation techniques -- using
different techniques during interrogations, instead of using one
method at a time -- on terrorist suspects who proved difficult to
break, sources said.
Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how
the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects -- whether they would
be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated
drowning, called waterboarding.
The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation
techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the
interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number
of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic.
The advisers were members of the National Security Council's
Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met
frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security
policy.
At the time, the Principals Committee included Vice President Cheney,
former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as CIA
Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft.
As the national security adviser, Rice chaired the meetings, which
took place in the White House Situation Room and were typically
attended by most of the principals or their deputies.
Contacted by ABC News today, spokesmen for Tenet, Rumsfeld and Powell
declined to comment about the interrogation program or their private
discussions in Principals Meetings. Powell said through an assistant
there were "hundreds of [Principals] meetings" on a wide variety of
topics and that he was "not at liberty to discuss private meetings."
The White House also declined comment on behalf of Rice and Cheney.
Ashcroft could not be reached for comment today.
Critics at home and abroad have harshly criticized the interrogation
program, which pushed the limits of international law and, they say,
condoned torture. Bush and his top aides have consistently defended
the program. They say it is legal and did not constitute torture.
"I can say that questioning the detainees in this program has given us
the information that has saved innocent lives by helping us stop new
attacks here in the United States and across the world," Bush said in
a speech in September 2006.
In interview with ABC's Charles Gibson last year, Tenet said: "It was
authorized. It was legal, according to the Attorney General of the
United States."
But this is the first time sources have disclosed that a handful of
the most senior advisers in the White House explicitly approved the
details of the program. According to multiple sources, it was members
of the Principals Committee that not only discussed specific plans and
specific interrogation methods, but approved them.
The discussions and meetings occurred in an atmosphere of great
concern that another terror attack on the nation was imminent. Sources
said the extraordinary involvement of the senior advisers in the grim
details of exactly how individual interrogations would be conducted
showed how seriously officials took the al Qaeda threat.
It started after the CIA captured top al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah
in spring 2002 in Faisalabad, Pakistan. When his safe house was raided
by Pakistani security forces along with FBI and CIA agents, Zubaydah
was shot three times during the gun battle.
At a time when virtually all counterterrorist professionals viewed
another attack as imminent -- and with information on al Qaeda scarce
-- the detention of Zubaydah was seen as a potentially critical
breakthrough.
Zubaydah was taken to the local hospital, where CIA agent John
Kiriakou, who helped coordinate Zubaydah's capture, was ordered to
remain at the wounded captive's side at all times. "I ripped up a
sheet and tied him to the bed," Kiriakou said.
But after Zubaydah recovered from his wounds at a secret CIA prison in
Thailand, he was uncooperative.
"I told him I had heard he was being a jerk," Kiriakou recalled. "I
said, 'These guys can make it easy on you or they can make it hard.'
It was after that he became defiant."
The CIA wanted to use more aggressive -- and physical -- methods to
get information.
The agency briefed high-level officials in the National Security
Council's Principals Committee, led by then-National Security Advisor
Rice and including then-Attorney General Ashcroft, which then signed
off on the plan, sources said. It is unclear whether anyone on the
committee objected to the CIA's plans for Zubaydah.
The CIA has confirmed Zubaydah was one of three al Qaeda suspects
subjected to waterboarding.
After he was waterboarded, officials say Zubaydah gave up valuable
information that led to the capture of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik
Mohammad and fellow 9/11 plotter Ramzi bin al-Shibh.
Mohammad was also subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. At a hearing
before a military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay on March 10, 2007, KSM,
as he is known, said he broke under the harsh interrogation.
COURT: Were any statements you made as the result of any of the
treatment that you received during that time frame from 2003 to 2006?
Did you make those statements because of the treatment you receive
from these people?
KSM: Statement for whom?
COURT: To any of these interrogators.
KSM: CIA peoples. Yes. At the beginning, when they transferred me...
Lawyers in the Justice Department had written a classified memo, which
was extensively reviewed, that gave formal legal authority to
government interrogators to use the "enhanced" questioning tactics on
suspected terrorist prisoners. The August 2002 memo, signed by then
head of the Office of Legal Counsel Jay Bybee, was referred to as the
so-called "Golden Shield" for CIA agents, who worried they would be
held liable if the harsh interrogations became public.
Old hands in the intelligence community remembered vividly how past
covert operations, from the Vietnam War-era "Phoenix Program" of
assassinations of Viet Cong to the Iran-Contra arms sales of the 1980s
were painted as the work of a "rogue agency" out of control.
But even after the "Golden Shield" was in place, briefings and
meetings in the White House to discuss individual interrogations
continued, sources said. Tenet, seeking to protect his agents,
regularly sought confirmation from the NSC principals that specific
interrogation plans were legal.
According to a former CIA official involved in the process, CIA
headquarters would receive cables from operatives in the field asking
for authorization for specific techniques. Agents, worried about
overstepping their boundaries, would await guidance in particularly
complicated cases dealing with high-value detainees, two CIA sources
said.
Highly placed sources said CIA directors Tenet and later Porter Goss
along with agency lawyers briefed senior advisers, including Cheney,
Rice, Rumsfeld and Powell, about detainees in CIA custody overseas.
"It kept coming up. CIA wanted us to sign off on each one every time,"
said one high-ranking official who asked not to be identified. "They'd
say, 'We've got so and so. This is the plan.'"
Sources said that at each discussion, all the Principals present
approved.
"These discussions weren't adding value," a source said. "Once you
make a policy decision to go beyond what you used to do and conclude
it's legal, (you should) just tell them to implement it."
Then-Attorney General Ashcroft was troubled by the discussions. He
agreed with the general policy decision to allow aggressive tactics
and had repeatedly advised that they were legal. But he argued that
senior White House advisers should not be involved in the grim details
of interrogations, sources said.
According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting:
"Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not
judge this kindly."
The Principals also approved interrogations that combined different
methods, pushing the limits of international law and even the Justice
Department's own legal approval in the 2002 memo, sources told ABC
News.
At one meeting in the summer of 2003 -- attended by Vice President
Cheney, among others -- Tenet made an elaborate presentation for
approval to combine several different techniques during
interrogations, instead of using one method at a time, according to a
highly placed administration source.
A year later, amidst the outcry over unrelated abuses of Iraqi
prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the controversial 2002 legal memo, which gave
formal legal authorization for the CIA interrogation program of the
top al Qaeda suspects, leaked to the press. A new senior official in
the Justice Department, Jack Goldsmith, withdrew the legal memo -- the
Golden Shield -- that authorized the program.
But the CIA had captured a new al Qaeda suspect in Asia. Sources said
CIA officials that summer returned to the Principals Committee for
approval to continue using certain "enhanced interrogation
techniques."
Then-National Security Advisor Rice, sources said, was decisive.
Despite growing policy concerns -- shared by Powell -- that the
program was harming the image of the United States abroad, sources say
she did not back down, telling the CIA: "This is your baby. Go do it."
a425couple
-> Fred J. McCall <fmcc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :> "deemsb...@aol.com" <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote:
> :> : He's going to end up with someone to his right. He needs to shore up
> :> :the conservatives and hope the Dems self-destruct....and that the
> :> :economy doesn't totally tank.
> :> I'm not sure that's a given, although it is certainly the conventional
> :> wisdom.
> :> This is another one of those places where McCain would probably be
> :> better served to listen to his own inner voices rather than the
> :> 'politics as usual' crowd.
> :increases the chance that there will be a conservative
> :revolt....either a third party run or just staying at home. McCain
> :needs the conservatives to have a chance. Conservatives also need
> :McCain, but politics are rarely rational.
> And this is the conventional wisdom. But McCain also needs the
> moderates and he won't get them by running too far to the right.
fwliw - I pretty much agree on above.
> NEITHER party seems to realize that it's the 'swing middle' that
> elects Presidents and that toadying to the 'party base' simply
> won't get you into the White House and will alienate the very
> votes you need to win.
The above is certainly a "core issue" and somewhat valid,
but sadly, does not work out well.
Even if there was only one overall political 'matrix' that you
arrange the voters on - the sad reality is if you appeal too
much to "swing middle", the activists from your 'home' side
will sit out, and not enough of 'other' side will swing over.
I knew a pretty good US Senator, that got run over by that.
a425couple
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > --- I had some hope that --- either C. Powell or C. Rice
> > might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
> ---Unfortunately the aforementioned women would have
> to display the intestinal fortitude of Hillary in order to withstand the
> the same crap that Hillary is receiving. --- a lot of the comments
> about/against her are sexist ugly.
Lucky (or deservidly?) for most of us in this ng., living in
USA, UK, or Canada, the "politicking" just feels like a
"blood sport".
Meaning, the term is not literal. We are very fortunate to
have at least the level of "civility" that few running for
office are likely to lose their lives.
But it does indeed feel to participants like a dirty nasty
"blood sport".
I have run for public office and won, and run and lost.
(although after saying that, not sure which result is really
'winning', nor which is really 'losing' ??!?)
Always an "interesting" and "informative" experience.
(and clearly note, my words did NOT say 'enjoyable'!)
The dirty, nasty, personal, off the real issues, side attacks
and inuendos are disgusting and hurtful.
(1."Did you notice the way that young pretty redhead in
the back of the room was looking at him? I bet his
wife wouldn't like that!" -- lucky for me she was, and
still is my wife!!)
(2."He was in the Marines, so he is obviously a sadistic
baby-killer." Sheesh!)
And, the assumptions.
And how hard it is to actually get voters to really hear
your views.
I have worked with a lot of "politicians" and seen them
through the cycle. A core view of mine, that probably
many in this ng will disagree with is:
The vast, vast majority, first entered, because they thought
the could do something to help their community/country.
> > Fate? How much is skill (et.al.) and how much is luck (et.al.)??
> > We all end up having to play the hand we are dealt
> > (although at times, we are able to do the dealing ourselves!)
> > ((and sometimes you can win with garbage, or lose with great hand!))
> Ultimately in a democracy you get the leader you deserve.
Yes. We keep destroying many good, because none are
perfect in our minds.
I've noted with irritation here in ngs that many do not like
any of the still current candidates. When I point out that
a few months ago we had around 15 in each party,
(certainly of 15, there should have been someone 'tolerable'!)
But, the 'critics' never got out and worked for choices available.
> Whatever happens, you have no choice but to roll with the punches.
> - nilita
Yep!
a425couple
> "a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I will admit, that at start of 2001, I had some hope that
> >during the next term or two, that either C. Powell or C. Rice
> >might get themselves in position to run for POTUS or VP.
> >Libby Dole or Nancy Kasenbaum to get into such
>
> A rerun of this assessment is in order.
Ahh, just a reminder.
Then was then, now is now.
Nearly everyone who is doing important things,
can display (and hopefully improve upon) their abilities.
"It just did not happen" - I believe without detailing reasons,
most voters, do not now, think she has any chance at top.
> She's the most powerful black woman in the world.
Probably yes.
> Why can't I stand the sight of her?
(massive snip of many facts and some opinions.)
Why? = for a variety of reasons that YOU feel
are valid. And it does not make sense for anyone
to try to disagree with that.
(thanks for not sniping - and for informative post)
Jack Linthicum
> "PaPaPeng" <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote
Do you think a "yes-ma'am" is more powerful than, say, Oprah Winfrey
or Michelle Obama?
Jack Wang
On 4/10/08 4:39 PM, in article
fd41223a-bbb8-4112...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "Jack
Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Why do you think Oprah Winfrey Is actually powerful? Rich, certainly,
Influential, In certain senses, but powerful? Michelle Obama Is just wife of
a junior senator from Chicago who has only been In senate for very short
period of time. Wife of one of the candidate for presidency, you call her
powerful?
Jack Linthicum
If you don't see Oprah moving governments over her school in South
Africa or making an entire nation sit up and listen to her when she
introduces a new face to the world, hypes a book, or has a nice chat
with a politician, then, no, she isn't powerful.
Michelle Obama has the ability to do things that Hillary can only
dream of doing. That potential gives her powerl, that a mis-trained,
failed National Security advisor can only play at. Ever hear
Condaleeza speak out on her own? Not a chance.
Jack Wang
On 4/10/08 5:05 PM, in article
e4a6f192-b418-4f1d...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Jack
Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I'm not saying Condi Is up to the expectations some people might put on her.
But since we are talking about politics, I would consider power means that
ability to affect war and peace, world situation, how the economy Is doing,
that sort of things. No matter how popular a Hollywood star Is, he/she will
never have that kind of power.
Personally, not really a big fan of Michelle Obama, having her as wife Is
one of the biggest weakness of Obama In my biased opinion. Even If a first
lady could be characterized as powerful, you can only reach that conclusion
after she actually moves Into the white house. For all I know, 08 race can
still go to both parties and any one of the three possible candidates.
Jack Linthicum
La N
"a425couple" <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NJydnZz3gaTboWPa...@comcast.com...
< snip >
I have worked behind the scenes in politics myself in the past and have a
relative who has been a very well known name brand in Canadian politics.
At least a couple of regs on the naval group know him.
In any case, on the one hand I admire most of those who want to make a
difference and thereby run for political office. On the other hand, these
same people are not the same "on the other side" after they've been through
the mill for a bit.
For the most part, politics seems to be waaaay dirtier in the US than in
Canada, the former country being so dominated by yellow journalism and
political opponents who have no compunction with regard to taking on
politicos' private lives and that of their loved ones / family members. Up
here in Canada, that's more a taboo. But, if you f*ck with our money, all
bets are off!
- nilita
La N
Jack is voting for Obama! :)
- nilita
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
James Hogg
<pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>Condoleeza [sic] Rice would make an EXCELLENT Vice President.
Wouldn't it cause less embarrassment if the US had a VP whose name
everyone - including Yale graduates - could spell?
James
John Briggs
It would have caused less embarrassment if her parents could have spelt it.
It is usually said to be derived from the musical term "con dolcezza" ('with
sweetness') - which would be fine (a) if the name had been spelt thus, and
(b) if the musical term actually existed...
It seems that most people think it derives from "con dolenza" or
"condolenza", but they don't seem to exist either...
[By an association of ideas, "Oprah" is usually said to be a mistake for
"Orpah"....]
--
John Briggs
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
More than likely, I just hope he isn't the black Jimmy Carter. IE a
wrong answer for a problem.
Peter Skelton
OFCS, he can't possibly help that. Carter was ineffective because
he ran into the immune system. Obama would do the same.
To be effective a president has to be an amoral bastard, a good
one is a pragmatically driven amoral bastard, a bad one is an
idiologically driven amoral bastard.
Peter Skelton
La N
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:16muv35l6f1cg91kv...@4ax.com...
So, to be effective, a president has to have his heart carved out of his
chest.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> "Peter Skelton" <skelt...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:16muv35l6f1cg91kv...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:10:20 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
He can act like he cares, but he can't actually care. Carter's real
problem was he didn't have enough friends who could run a government
and he had to rely on the usual suspects. Hamilton Jordan said it all
when before the inaugural he said "if it's Cyrus Vance at State we
have lost". It was Cyrus Vance at State.
La N
I got the impression that although Carter wasn't an effective president, he
was a man of integrity.
- nilita
Peter Skelton
Wasn't that rather the point?
Peter Skelton
La N
Why, yes, Peter. But I dared mention the "i" word - integrity. Most people
who run for POTUS - and their supporters - believe themselves to have
integrity, but they don't truly understand the real meaning of *integrity*.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> "Peter Skelton" <skelt...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:47:15 GMT, "La N"
One is said to have integrity to the extent that everything one does
and believes is based on the same core set of values. While those
values may change, it is their consistency with each other and with
the person's actions that determine the person's integrity. If those
principles include lying, cheating, stealing, blackmail and
intimidation but are consistent, then you have integrity.
La N
Which politicians actually believe themselves to hold the principles of
"lying, cheating, stealing ... " etc.?
- nilita
James Hogg
The whole of Grove Music Online has just one instance of
"con dolezza", not as a musical term but in the title of a song,
"Con dolcezza e pietate".
There's something very fishy about the whole story of this unfortunate
and tacky name.
Maybe it's just a compound of "condo" and "lezza", meaning a
commonhold dyke?
James
La N
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HKJLj.58938$_v3.5202@edtnps90...
"Bush and Cheney are men of integrity". Debate.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
The wise ones, look at Senator Stevens or anyone with an absolute need
for an earmark despite voting against earmarks.
Renia
It's said to be Harpo backwards.
John Briggs
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:54:43 GMT, "John Briggs"
> <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:47:06 +0100, "D. Spencer Hines"
>>> <pan...@excelsior.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Condoleeza [sic] Rice would make an EXCELLENT Vice President.
>>>
>>> Wouldn't it cause less embarrassment if the US had a VP whose name
>>> everyone - including Yale graduates - could spell?
>>
>> It would have caused less embarrassment if her parents could have
>> spelt it. It is usually said to be derived from the musical term
>> "con dolcezza" ('with sweetness') - which would be fine (a) if the
>> name had been spelt thus, and (b) if the musical term actually
>> existed...
>>
>> It seems that most people think it derives from "con dolenza" or
>> "condolenza", but they don't seem to exist either...
>>
>> [By an association of ideas, "Oprah" is usually said to be a mistake
>> for "Orpah"....]
>
> The whole of Grove Music Online has just one instance of
> "con dolezza", not as a musical term but in the title of a song,
> "Con dolcezza e pietate".
Frescobaldi. That's not impossible as the origin - it would be interesting
to know when it was edited and published: it is unlikely to have been
recorded by 1954.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
It's a bit bizarre that she should be (mis)named after a vocal canzona
rather than a keyboard piece.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Richard Nixon is probably the best example.
--
John Briggs
La N
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mBKLj.4801$B83....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
I agree. But did he believe himself to have those principles?
- nilita
James Hogg
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Grove refers only to:
Girolamo Frescobaldi: Arie musicali (Florenz 1630), ed. H. Spohr,
Musikalische Denkmäler, iv (Mainz, 1960)
James
James Hogg
wrote:
>>> Which politicians actually believe themselves to hold the principles
>>> of "lying, cheating, stealing ... " etc.?
>>
>> Richard Nixon is probably the best example.
>> --
>
>I agree. But did he believe himself to have those principles?
ISTR he explicitly denied being a crook.
James
Jack Linthicum
The irony might be that her big allure is her perfume. Several people
have commented upon it and here is a quote: "As Condoleezza left, the
faint scent of peach blossom lingered in the air, a too-quickly
dispersing waft of fragrance hanging like a cloud of hope in the night-
time hotel corridor of wartorn central Baghdad"
Fred J. McCall
:On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:47:15 GMT, "La N"
:<nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>
:>I got the impression that although Carter wasn't an effective president, he
:>was a man of integrity.
:>
:
:Wasn't that rather the point?
:
And I think 'was' is probably also the proper verb tense. He seems to
have lost that integrity somewhere along the way...
--
You are
What you do
When it counts.
Fred J. McCall
:La N wrote:
:>
:> Which politicians actually believe themselves to hold the principles
:> of "lying, cheating, stealing ... " etc.?
:>
:
:Richard Nixon is probably the best example.
:
LBJ beat him to it...
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Jack Linthicum
Book of Ruth
4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one
was Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelt there about
ten years.
Tiglath
> Condoleeza Rice would make an EXCELLENT Vice President.
>
It fits. The rule in government to get rid of the incompetent is
promotion.
John Briggs
Florenz?
--
John Briggs
Les Cargill
>
> I got the impression that although Carter wasn't an effective president, he
> was a man of integrity.
>
After a fashion. I've never found the actual reference, but Carter is
purported to have said that he considered the Ayatollah Khohemeni to
be "a holy man".
You may have wanted Carter to be a deacon in your church, but I am
not sure you wanted him leading a nation.
> - nilita
>
>
--
Les Cargill