Easy aircraft terror
Frogwatch
of what a soft target an aircraft filled with passengers is. The
terrorists does not have to destroy the plane to cause terror or to
kill.
Consider if he simply had bleach and ammonia to mix together. He'd
make Chlorine gas aboard a sealed aircraft. I doubt more than a few
people would get sick but still frightening. Can the pilot cause the
oxygen masks to drop without a drop in cabin pressure?
What if he had either sodium or potassium cyanide powder which is easy
to buy. Mixed with any acid it produces cyanide gas. If he had the
powder in his shorts, all he has to do is get some orange juice and
pour it into his lap. How much trouble would this cause?
Easily to obtain calcium carbide in his shorts and all he has to do is
pour a pint of water in his lap and you get huge volumes of acetylene
gas and then he flicks his Bic and BOOOOOOM.
The answer: Profiling. Yup, you aint gonna find a bunch of
Scandanavian girls scouts with bombs in their panties but those guys
from islamo countries with islamo names or who even look islamo might
need some serious consideration. Not PC but sometimes reality sucks.
La N
"Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4e169a1c-01e2-422f...@upsg2000gro.googlegroups.com...
This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to actually come
into effect universally at airports in the near future.
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search. You
know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
La N
> On Dec 30, 2:55 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>
>> come into effect universally at airports in the near future.
>>
>> - nilita
>
> That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
>
> Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search. You
> know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports would be
sharing photos by email? Kind of like baseball trading cards. I'll give
you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
- nil
Frogwatch
I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
unpleasant these days.
Jack Linthicum
You'll love the welcoming committee, they are just waiting for
smartasses like you to show up. Have you ever fallen (accidently) down
a flight of concrete stairs?
La N
> On Dec 30, 3:06 pm, Frogwatch <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 30, 3:03 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>>>> On Dec 30, 2:55 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>>> This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to
>>>>> actually come into effect universally at airports in the near
>>>>> future.
>>
>>>>> - nilita
>>
>>>> That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
>>
>>>> Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search.
>>>> You know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
>>
>>> Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports
>>> would be sharing photos by email? Kind of like baseball trading
>>> cards. I'll give you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
>>
>>> - nil
>>
>> I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
>> unpleasant these days.
>
> You'll love the welcoming committee, they are just waiting for
> smartasses like you to show up. Have you ever fallen (accidently) down
> a flight of concrete stairs?
They have absolutely NO sense of humour.
Andrew Chaplin
news:90d8bd18-1c30-473f...@n31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 30, 3:06锟絧m, Frogwatch <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 30, 3:03锟絧m, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> > > On Dec 30, 2:55 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > >> This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to
>> > >> actually come into effect universally at airports in the near
>> > >> future.
>> > >
>> > > That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
>>
>> > > Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search.
>> > > You know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
>>
>> > Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports
>> > would be sharing photos by email? 锟終ind of like baseball trading
>> > cards. 锟絀'll give
>> > you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
>>
>> I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
>> unpleasant these days.
>
> You'll love the welcoming committee, they are just waiting for
> smartasses like you to show up. Have you ever fallen (accidently) down
> a flight of concrete stairs?
Where the hell was that committee when Farouk showed up? If a guy is on a
"watch list," it strikes me that, when he shows up with no passport and a
one-way ticket bought with cash, and you can find no reasonable premise
to prevent him from boarding, you tap the nearest sky marshal on the
shoulder and say, "See Numb-Nuts over there? You're going to be sitting
in the seat next to him all the way to Detroit. If he tries anything
funny, disable him."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote innews:90d8bd18-1c30-473f...@n31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 3:06 pm, Frogwatch <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 30, 3:03 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Jack Linthicum wrote:
> >> > > On Dec 30, 2:55 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > >> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > >> This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to
> >> > >> actually come into effect universally at airports in the near
> >> > >> future.
>
> >> > > That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
>
> >> > > Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search.
> >> > > You know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
>
> >> > Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports
> >> > cards. I'll give
> >> > you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
>
> >> I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
> >> unpleasant these days.
>
> > You'll love the welcoming committee, they are just waiting for
> > smartasses like you to show up. Have you ever fallen (accidently) down
> > a flight of concrete stairs?
>
> Where the hell was that committee when Farouk showed up? If a guy is on a
> "watch list," it strikes me that, when he shows up with no passport and a
> one-way ticket bought with cash, and you can find no reasonable premise
> to prevent him from boarding, you tap the nearest sky marshal on the
> shoulder and say, "See Numb-Nuts over there? You're going to be sitting
> in the seat next to him all the way to Detroit. If he tries anything
> funny, disable him."
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
I was letting Herr Frog know that as amused as he is by his japery
there are people who listen to such as a professional duty and then
interrogate the perpetrator. In the U.S. There are now laws about
that, now that we have changed Presidents.
Andrew Chaplin
4c40-8496-d...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
> Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be when a
significant element of the threat is foreign nationals entering the U.S. on
flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> 4c40-8496-dad9d0db2...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
> > and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
> > Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be when a
> significant element of the threat is foreign nationals entering the U.S. on
> flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
The sky marshall program keeps getting cut because the terrorists have
stopped their activities. Did you know there are RCMP on every flight
to Ronald Reagan National Airport? But apparently not Dulles.
My idea would be to have an evaluation of the passengers made by
someone in the security process. If they sense that one or more
passengers are potential terror types, they seat a sky marshal on the
aisle seat opposite theirs.
William Black
> Where the hell was that committee when Farouk showed up? If a guy is on a
> "watch list," it strikes me that, when he shows up with no passport and a
> one-way ticket bought with cash, and you can find no reasonable premise
> to prevent him from boarding, you tap the nearest sky marshal on the
> shoulder and say, "See Numb-Nuts over there? You're going to be sitting
> in the seat next to him all the way to Detroit. If he tries anything
> funny, disable him."
Nice thought.
The 'no passport' story is a none starter.
Nigerians have to submit a valid passport to get a US visa, it has to
have at least six month's life left in it and the visa will not exceed
the life of the passport.
A reasonable premise for stopping someone boarding an aircraft on an
international flight is that they don't have the right papers...
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Jack Linthicum
A bit on the TV news says Farouk came to Houston, which has a very
large Nigerian population, for a 17-day series of classes in 2008.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7193124
David E. Powell
What gets me is not only that he had been flagged on a couple lists,
but I already thought people walked through sniffers that scanned for
that stuff. A couple years ago they did something like that on me and
my luggage, I'd figure PETN was pretty well known as an explosive to
watch for. Easier than the full body scan, and less invasive (This
reminds me of the "Airport Security" scene in the movie Airplane.)
If sniffers can already read PETN more tech isn't needed, just using
the existing stuff properly.
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
Supposed to be one element that defies airport equipment. This group
says they can detect it in miniscule quantities says it could be
used in airport type screening.
Jack Linthicum
<juergen.nieveler.nos...@arcor.de> wrote:
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to actually come
> > into effect universally at airports in the near future.
>
> registering policy for breast implants.
>
> Just think of the amount of liquids you could safely store in a pair of
> DDs....
>
> Juergen Nieveler
> --
> It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.
Farouk hid his in his underwear, which is why he is the Undiebomber.
Alan Lothian
<nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports would be
> sharing photos by email? Kind of like baseball trading cards. I'll give
> you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
In my underwear, or does it have to be starkers? I am not sure I like
the rate of exchange.
Indeed (sniff) I am *insulted*. Expect retaliation, Nilita, at a time
of my choosing. You'll live to regret this, mark my words. Still,
revenge is a dish best eaten cold, non e' vero?
--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian.
Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
Jim H.
wrote:
...............................
>
> Where the hell was that committee when Farouk showed up? If a guy is on a
> "watch list," it strikes me that, when he shows up with no passport and a
> one-way ticket bought with cash, and you can find no reasonable premise
> to prevent him from boarding, you tap the nearest sky marshal on the
> shoulder and say, "See Numb-Nuts over there? You're going to be sitting
> in the seat next to him all the way to Detroit. If he tries anything
> funny, disable him."
> --
> Andrew Chaplin
> SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
> (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
So did the Undybomba do enough damage to his wedding tackle to be
self-Darwinating? Of course, I suppose he'd have to get out of prison
before it really mattered....
Jim H.
For Eugene Griessel,with thanks for years of smiles:
I saw a woman wearing a t-shirt with "Guess" on it, so I said
"Implants?"
Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.
If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.
William Black
Which only means he had a passport, a valid visa and money for a flight.
Which makes the story about no passport very unlikely.
Jim Yanik
news:Xns9CF1A09494...@216.196.109.144:
> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> 4c40-8496-d...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
>> IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
>> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
>> Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be when
> a significant element of the threat is foreign nationals entering the
> U.S. on flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
there's not that many Sky Marshals to go around.Never was.
besides,what good is a guy with a gun when a jihadi is trying to detonate
his bomb? (and maybe out of sight of the Marshall...)
It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
No more Political Correctness.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
La N
Okay, I'll bite. Could you provide categories of people who should be
PROFILED?
versus
Those who should be given a pass?
This is your homework for the day, Mr. Yanik. If you provide a good
argument, I will myself email Mr. Obama with your suggestion!
- nilita
Ray O'Hara
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2376ee76-1657-4145...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
==========================================================================
we can't run or police every airport in the world.
Lagos is as lawless a town as there is.
all the "Nigerian scams are from Lagos, everybody is on the take.
but it would be nice if the Repubs stopped blocking the appointment of a
head for the TSA because they fear unionization of American workers more
than bombers from abroad.
the only thing the Repubs are really upset about is the bomb failed.
Alan Lothian
<67e8568d-297f-4e12...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Farouk hid his in his underwear, which is why he is the Undiebomber.
Every flown El Al, Jack? They don't do jobsworth security, they do
security. It's a real pain, but it's real security, and it works. And
their "skymarshals" carry soft-nosed low-penetration .22 jobbies, which
they are quite prepared to use. "Low penetration" refers to airframe,
not skulls. One of these bullets goes into a skull quite nicely, and
bounces around a while rather than exiting and harming an honest,
fare-paying passenger. The wretched Farouk would never have got on to
an El Al flight, and if by some almost unthinkable aberration he had,
he would never have got off it, except in a body bag.
Question: who was the only person to survive an attempted hijack of an
El Al aircraft?
Clue: she was very good looking. Even Fascist Zionist Imperialists have
their weaknesses.
And that great British prime minister, Edward Heath, helped.
No more clues.
Ray O'Hara
====================================================================
he was the "Undiebomber, but now he is the Eunuchbomber.
Jack Linthicum
> Andrew Chaplin <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote innews:Xns9CF1A09494...@216.196.109.144:
>
> > Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> > news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> > 4c40-8496-dad9d0db2...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
> >> Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> > If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be when
> > a significant element of the threat is foreign nationals entering the
> > U.S. on flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
>
> there's not that many Sky Marshals to go around.Never was.
>
> besides,what good is a guy with a gun when a jihadi is trying to detonate
> his bomb? (and maybe out of sight of the Marshall...)
>
> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
> Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
>
> No more Political Correctness.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> localnet
> dot com
When you see your suspect take 20 minutes in the head and then comes
out and spreads a blanket over his lap and starts to fiddle
underneath, I suspect even a rookie would reach over and either pull
the blanket or ask the suspect to stand up. If we don't have enough
sky marshals we should get more. It's not like there's a shortage of
experienced military standing around waiting for the unemployment line
to open up.
Jack Linthicum
> >news:Xns9CF1A09494...@216.196.109.144:
>
> >> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> >> news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> >> 4c40-8496-dad9d0db2...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to
> >>> William Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> >> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be
> >> when a significant element of the threat is foreign nationals
> >> entering the U.S. on flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
>
> > there's not that many Sky Marshals to go around.Never was.
>
> > besides,what good is a guy with a gun when a jihadi is trying to
> > detonate his bomb? (and maybe out of sight of the Marshall...)
>
> > It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
> > Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
>
> > No more Political Correctness.
>
> Okay, I'll bite. Could you provide categories of people who should be
> PROFILED?
>
> versus
>
> Those who should be given a pass?
>
> This is your homework for the day, Mr. Yanik. If you provide a good
> argument, I will myself email Mr. Obama with your suggestion!
>
> - nilita
Start with the obvious, name. Next appearance. Then demeanor.
Jack Linthicum
> "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Amsterdam isn't lawless. Put the marshals at the obvious places,
London, Amsterdam, Paris, SAS, maybe Germany.
La N
Mmmm ..... name ... appearance ... demeanor .... Mr. Barack Obama seems like
an obvious first choice ........
Me too, come to think of it, with my Nigerian connections!
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
> In article
> <67e8568d-297f-4e12-9649-29ac4f285...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Understood, I have a friend who works the Sinai. Not from him but
others I have heard of five interrogations between the entry gate and
the boarding ramp.
La N
> In article <PmO_m.57875$Db2.33518@edtnps83>, La N
> <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports would
>> be sharing photos by email? Kind of like baseball trading cards.
>> I'll give you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
>
> In my underwear, or does it have to be starkers? I am not sure I like
> the rate of exchange.
>
> Indeed (sniff) I am *insulted*. Expect retaliation, Nilita, at a time
> of my choosing. You'll live to regret this, mark my words. Still,
> revenge is a dish best eaten cold, non e' vero?
You said bad things about my haiku writing, Mr. Lothian. As such, your
stock went down .... along with your trousers ....
- nil
Alex Potter
> Question: who was the only person to survive an attempted hijack of an
> El Al aircraft?
That would be the lovely Leila, I think.
--
Regards
Alex
Alan Lothian
<spa...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:
Got it in one. La Khaled. Apparently enjoying comfortable middle age,
these days. The other hijackers were all shot in the head at
point-blank range by Israeli marshals, which certainly saved tiresome
difficulties with the British legal system. Khaled's survival caused no
end of trouble. As a regular airline user, I would have had no
objection whatsoever to the Israeli response. Please note that I have
no allegiance of any kind to Israel, then or now. The marshals should
have shot her, too, but I can understand why they didn't. Judge not,
lest ye be judged, and all that. Mercy, after all, is not a crime. Even
when it's sexist mercy. And brings with it a sackload of woe. Now, if
those Israeli marshals had found a way of shooting Edward Heath... but
I digress.
Alex Potter
> ime. Even
> when it's sexist mercy. And brings with it a sackload of woe. Now, if
> those Israeli marshals had found a way of shooting Edward Heath.
Better yet, his party's odious female successor to the post.
--
Regards
Alex
Frogwatch
Jack needs to get his head screwed on straight because I am perfectly
serious. Clearly TSA has NOT thought of everything so it is up to us
to tell them of potential possibilities which is why I posted. If
Jack can see some sort of threat from my post, perhaps it is entirely
in his own mind
TSA does need o consider scenarios where the threat is not to bring
down the plane but to simply cause death in an enclosed space. They
need to consider such in spite of what Jack L. thinks because clearly
Jack has insufficient imagination to see the possibilities.
I will further explain so that any TSA types reading this might learn
something useful. A TINY amount of calcium carbide mixed with water
generates copious amounts of acetylene. It is not very explosive in
high concentration but when it gets mixed with the air it becomes
highly explosive.Someone could very easily put some in the toilet,
pour in some water, wait about 30 seconds and strike a lighter. BOOM,
the side is blown out of the plane. I fully intend for TSA to think
about such possibilities and hope they do.
How could someone hide the calcium carbide? How about in a condom
stuffed up his ass? You'd never detect it. This is why I think that
serious profiling may be the only way to alleviate the threat.
The reason I know about calcium carbide is because I am a caver and
for years we used carbide lamps. When I lived where there was no
trash pick-up, we had to burn our trash. One day, 2 weeks after a
caving trip, I took the trash outside, dropped a match on the plastic
bag and was knocked down by an explosion. Standing up with my hair
and eyebrows singed off and covered with trash, I smelled the
acetylene and realized what had happed. I had emptied spent calcium
carbide in the trash and it still produced enough gas to be dangerous.
I know about Potassium cyanide because years ago I bought 3 ounces to
dissolve gold coatings. Somehow the supplier screwed up and delivered
30 lbs. The container had been punctured by a forklift. Reading all
about it scares me to death so I have it locked up in a fireproof
cabinet inside a triple container.
If I can see how such chemicals could be used for terror, then
dedicated jihadis who seriously outnumber me thought of it a long time
ago and TSA needs to know about the threat.
Jack Linthicum
Let me tell you a story. I have a friend who is quite large. He is of
Potawattamie descent and doesn't look like your drugstore indian. He
has a son, at least one, who is his size, too. Years ago the Hope
Diamond came to Washington DC and was put on display in one of the
Smithsonian museums.
This guy and his son went to the museum to see the Hope Diamond, among
other things. While they were looking at the diamond the innocent
subject of how the diamond was protected and what one would do to
extricate it from its present abode. As a part of that discussion both
father and son knelt next to the case and were looking at the lock on
the bottom part of that case.
Suddenly they were interrupted by about 50 policemen, who very gruffly
took each as if they were going to resist and hustled them out of the
hall where the diamond was displayed. Now my friend is large, as I
said, and he has not found many people who could pick him up and
hustle him off. He says he only tensed, but got whacked rather hard
for having done so. His son tried to help him and got whacked also.
I think it was some 30 hours before they were released and told never
to come back to the Smithsonian again. It made the papers, without any
names of course, and giving the police great credit for keeping the
Hope Diamond safe and sound.
As near as he ever said he admits he asked his son how they would
handle the lock and that was a s far as he got in this "innocent"
discussion. So learn, there are people whose job it is to prevent
occurences, and they do not give a rat's ass damn what your intent
was, only that you made a statement that would sound like a criminal
act.
Frogwatch
wrote:
So now Jack thinks that making suggestions to TSA is a criminal act?
Purely by coincidence, the day before Christmas I was discussing 9/11
with a liberal friend and he was criticizing the airport security
measures. He actually expressed the opinion that the idea of someone
mixing a bomb aboard a plane was nonsense. Nothing like being proved
wrong so soon. However, Jack seems to be of the opinion that
discussing possibilities is the same as encouraging them and that we
should all close our eyes and believe that "the authorities" are doing
their jobs. Jack seems to live in a fantasy world where the govt is
always right.
BlackBeard
> In article
> <67e8568d-297f-4e12-9649-29ac4f285...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>
Pshaaw... If the bullet will penetrate the skull it will easily
penetrate the aircraft skin. Modern airlines are a pressurized beer-
can with lots of ribbing. I've put holes in them with a screw-driver,
let alone all the projectiles we've tested on them.
However the commonly held belief that the vessel would explosively
decompress (from previously mentioned bullet) lives only in Hollywood
conditioned- and Arthur Hailey's fertile imagination. Just as cars
explode anytime all four wheels leave the ground. ;)
BB
tankfixer
says...
>
> "Frogwatch" <ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > The Christmas day Froot of the Loon underwear bomber got me thinking
> > of what a soft target an aircraft filled with passengers is. The
> > terrorists does not have to destroy the plane to cause terror or to
> > kill.
> > Consider if he simply had bleach and ammonia to mix together. He'd
> > make Chlorine gas aboard a sealed aircraft. I doubt more than a few
> > people would get sick but still frightening. Can the pilot cause the
> > oxygen masks to drop without a drop in cabin pressure?
> > What if he had either sodium or potassium cyanide powder which is easy
> > to buy. Mixed with any acid it produces cyanide gas. If he had the
> > powder in his shorts, all he has to do is get some orange juice and
> > pour it into his lap. How much trouble would this cause?
> > Easily to obtain calcium carbide in his shorts and all he has to do is
> > pour a pint of water in his lap and you get huge volumes of acetylene
> > gas and then he flicks his Bic and BOOOOOOM.
> > The answer: Profiling. Yup, you aint gonna find a bunch of
> > Scandanavian girls scouts with bombs in their panties but those guys
> > from islamo countries with islamo names or who even look islamo might
> > need some serious consideration. Not PC but sometimes reality sucks.
>
>
> into effect universally at airports in the near future.
>
Instead of spending copious sums of money on such technology why not
just profile these buggers and deny them passage...
paid in cash
one way ticket
no luggage
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
Dragging the TSA contoversy is a moot point since they had no part in
allowing him to board...
>
> the only thing the Repubs are really upset about is the bomb failed.
Tell you what Ray..
FUCK
YOU
You stupid remarks like that only prove how intelectually dishonest you
are.
tankfixer
@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, jackli...@earthlink.net says...
Then how they purchased their ticket, was it cash ?
And is it a one way ticket.
Then consider the ammount of luggage the prospective passenger has.
tankfixer
says...
He might garner a second look..
Then again does he travel half shaven in shabby clothes ?
Does he act like he is worried someone is watching his every move while
he waits in line ?
Fidget...
tankfixer
juergen.nie...@arcor.de says...
>
> "La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to actually come
> > into effect universally at airports in the near future.
>
> registering policy for breast implants.
>
> Just think of the amount of liquids you could safely store in a pair of
> DDs....
>
I figure to get a TSA job checking them when I retire....
La N
Really? I thought most retirees got jobs as Wal-Mart greeters ....
Ray O'Hara
"tankfixer" <paul.c...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.25a5a06...@news.bytemine.net...
hit a nerve Paul?
already the Repubs are using the attempt in fund raising.
they'd have loved for the plane to have been destroyed, think of the money
they'd raise from the likes of you and Fred.
think of the howls faux and friends, o'lielly, rush the junkie and the
beckster would be sending up.
a successful terror attack is the repubs wetdream./
and you know it.
Ray O'Hara
"La N" <nilita20...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nWQ_m.57921$Db2.17322@edtnps83...
muslim men with one way tickets and minimal luggage.
Frogwatch
> "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:nWQ_m.57921$Db2.17322@edtnps83...
>
>
>
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >>news:Xns9CF1A09494...@216.196.109.144:
>
> >>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> >>> news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> >>> 4c40-8496-dad9d0db2...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>>> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to
> >>>> William Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> >>> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be
> >>> when a significant element of the threat is foreign nationals
> >>> entering the U.S. on flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
>
> >> there's not that many Sky Marshals to go around.Never was.
>
> >> besides,what good is a guy with a gun when a jihadi is trying to
> >> detonate his bomb? (and maybe out of sight of the Marshall...)
>
> >> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
> >> Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
>
> >> No more Political Correctness.
>
> > Okay, I'll bite. Could you provide categories of people who should be
> > PROFILED?
>
> > versus
>
> > Those who should be given a pass?
>
> > This is your homework for the day, Mr. Yanik. If you provide a good
> > argument, I will myself email Mr. Obama with your suggestion!
>
> > - nilita
>
> muslim men with one way tickets and minimal luggage.
If Jack wants to report me to TSA, I will be happy to give them the
benefit of myimagination that is obviously more active than his.
What about an ounce of sodium dropped into the toilet?
tankfixer
oh...@hotmail.com says...
No, I think your comments only indicate what a whore you are for your
corrupt ideology
Frogwatch
Does Ray truly think that those of us who oppose Obama would want a
successful aircraft terror attack when we also fly and when our own
families fly? Ray, that is truly sick and you owe us an apology. If
I WANTED a successful terror attack, would I be suggesting things to
look out for? Of course not. Simple logic proves Ray is wrong.
tankfixer
says...
You need to think harder then..
One previous supervisor of mine is a VA counselor at a local college..
Another works as a sheriffs deputy.
Not that being a greeter at WalMart is a dishonorable job..
It's unfortunate you wish to demean it..
La N
> think of the howls faux and friends, o'lielly, rush the junkie and the
btw, it's breaking news that Rush Limbaugh was just a little while ago
rushed to hospital in Hawaii with severe chest pain. One source says
"serious condition".
Ironical that he is holidaying over there the same time as the Obamas.
- nilita
La N
How am I demeaning it???? Eh??? My own dentist says that he's retiring in
five years and because he doesn't like the idea of retiring, he's going to
think of being a Wal-Mart greeter. Dude, you read waaaaaaaay too much into
many things .... you must have Ray-itis at the moment.
- nilita
tankfixer
There are those who like to insult Walmart greeters..
La N
I agree with Froggie here. But, I also know that both sides - Repubs and
Dems - work at gaining political capital when some kind of senseless tragedy
or scandal happens under the other side's watch. I definitely recall when
Bush supporters (not mentioning any names, but some are in this group) were
claiming that Dems were "dancing on the graves of soldiers" when same Dems
lamented the fatality rates, suicides, dismemberment, etc. etc. as a result
of the Iraq invasion.
- nilita
La N
Maybe in your neck of the woods. Our local Wal-Mart is staffed big time by
retirees. Some of the other local department stores and supermarkets have
caught on to the gimmick of hiring greeters that second as security looking
out for shoplifters and the ilk.
Alan Lothian
<45547f3c-3a8f-4aea...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
BlackBeard <spk...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Pshaaw... If the bullet will penetrate the skull it will easily
> penetrate the aircraft skin.
That's why they are trained to shoot them into skulls, not airframes.
But they are relatively low-velocity and pure soft lead. More splat
than punch, although if it's your skull you'll never notice the
difference.
> Modern airlines are a pressurized beer-
> can with lots of ribbing. I've put holes in them with a screw-driver,
> let alone all the projectiles we've tested on them.
That's got to be 25 years in the federal pen. Come to think of it, even
a non-federal pen would make a hole in an airliner's skin.
> However the commonly held belief that the vessel would explosively
> decompress (from previously mentioned bullet) lives only in Hollywood
> conditioned- and Arthur Hailey's fertile imagination. Just as cars
> explode anytime all four wheels leave the ground. ;)
Only when they are driven by Bad Guys.
Dammit, I am up in the middle of the bloody night again, despite taking
every precaution that good Scotch can offer.
Frogwatch
Let's be nice y'all. I did not intend this to be a thread on
politics.
After considering all the ways somebody could cause havoc on an
airliner, it is tempting to swear off flying.
I doubt that any technology could detect all the ways someone could
cause trouble which is why I am suggesting profiling, it is simply
technically easier than anything else and probably more successful.
Yes, people will be charged with "Flying while muslim" but that is
Islams problem. They caused it, they can do all they can to reverse
the image.
Malcom "Mal" Reynolds
<4e169a1c-01e2-422f-9de4-77730fd74edc@up
sg2000gro.googlegroups.com>,
Frogwatch <ohar...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> The Christmas day Froot of the Loon underwear bomber got me thinking
> of what a soft target an aircraft filled with passengers is. The
> terrorists does not have to destroy the plane to cause terror or to
> kill.
> Consider if he simply had bleach and ammonia to mix together. He'd
> make Chlorine gas aboard a sealed aircraft. I doubt more than a few
> people would get sick but still frightening. Can the pilot cause the
> oxygen masks to drop without a drop in cabin pressure?
> What if he had either sodium or potassium cyanide powder which is easy
> to buy. Mixed with any acid it produces cyanide gas. If he had the
> powder in his shorts, all he has to do is get some orange juice and
> pour it into his lap. How much trouble would this cause?
> Easily to obtain calcium carbide in his shorts and all he has to do is
> pour a pint of water in his lap and you get huge volumes of acetylene
> gas and then he flicks his Bic and BOOOOOOM.
> The answer: Profiling. Yup, you aint gonna find a bunch of
> Scandanavian girls scouts with bombs in their panties but those guys
> from islamo countries with islamo names or who even look islamo might
> need some serious consideration. Not PC but sometimes reality sucks.
I believe that this discussion misses
the obvious point: Terrorism is to
terrorise the masses. It's not
necessarily the destruction of an
aircraft with hundreds of passengers
that is the goal, but the disruption of
other flights and the economic
disruption this causes to travelers (and
even freight) but the money that is
spent to counter these acts is money
that could be better spent elsewhere.
To that end it seems much easier to me
to just blow yourself up in a terminal
while waiting for your flight. Just keep
going thru security points until you get
caught and then blow yourself up. If you
get thru, blow up the plane while in
flight. And you don't have to get fancy
with the explosives.
Imagine how pleasant traveling by plane
would be if they had to search everyone
at the terminal entrance.
Just a thought
Ray O'Hara
Obama is having a better time it seems.
BlackBeard
> In article
>
> > Modern airlines are a pressurized beer-
> > can with lots of ribbing. I've put holes in them with a screw-driver,
> > let alone all the projectiles we've tested on them.
>
> That's got to be 25 years in the federal pen. Come to think of it, even
> a non-federal pen would make a hole in an airliner's skin.
No sir, I was authorized.
I spent my last ten working years in aircraft/weapons survivability.
We worked for the USN, USAF, USMC, FAA, and NASA. Every major
platform for the military had a congressional mandate to be tested in
combat situations to prove it could survive a certain amount of battle
damage. The FAA used us in cases like TWA 800, the LiOh fire in
Florida, and another case in FLA where engine blades were thrown
through the cabin. Also when the post 9/11 armed flight crew proposal
came up I had the opportunity to help put more than 100 rounds through
the cockpit and cabin of a platform.
With NASA I worked for several years on the Spirit and Opportunity
rover programs. I have my name (along with thousands of others) on
Mars now. ;) Also my wife and I got to observe the landing telemetry
from Pasadena.
The screwdriver incident was on a challenge. A coworker was flying
out the next day so I demonstrated the relative skin strength on a 737
body we were using to test a protection system to save passengers when
an engine came apart and tossed blades through the cabin.
BTW the fix is there and worked, let's see if the airlines ever adopt
it considering weight (fuel) and overall cost.
BB
BlackBeard
Although as taught by Mr. Lothian to be a liberal and tolerant man, I
will note that if Mr. Yanik, or Mr. O'hara contributes, it always gets
political.
BB
frank
> In article <hhgm1t$72...@news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
> oh...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Considering its supposed to be SOP that no foreign flight takes off
for the US until the passenger list is approved, yeah, TSA is in on
it. Another dropped the ball moment.
There should have been multiple flags on this guy.
then again, I never would have believed somebody would fly a B-52 with
ACMs on it Xcountry and be clueless about it either.
Dennis
> "La N" wrote:
>
>> This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to actually
>> come into effect universally at airports in the near future.
I just hope they don't start having internal body scans, ie. cavity
searchs - and I don't mean dental checks!
> Full-body under-the-skin scanning, hopefully - and a mandatory global
> registering policy for breast implants.
>
> Just think of the amount of liquids you could safely store in a pair
> of DDs....
Actually, I think that sort of thing is standard practice in
intelligence tradecraft!
Dennis
William Black
>>
>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Farouk hid his in his underwear, which is why he is the Undiebomber.
>> Every flown El Al, Jack? They don't do jobsworth security, they do
>> security. It's a real pain, but it's real security, and it works. And
>> their "skymarshals" carry soft-nosed low-penetration .22 jobbies, which
>> they are quite prepared to use. "Low penetration" refers to airframe,
>> not skulls. One of these bullets goes into a skull quite nicely, and
>> bounces around a while rather than exiting and harming an honest,
>> fare-paying passenger. The wretched Farouk would never have got on to
>> an El Al flight, and if by some almost unthinkable aberration he had,
>> he would never have got off it, except in a body bag.
>>
>> Question: who was the only person to survive an attempted hijack of an
>> El Al aircraft?
>> Clue: she was very good looking. Even Fascist Zionist Imperialists have
>> their weaknesses.
>> And that great British prime minister, Edward Heath, helped.
>>
>> No more clues.
>>
>> --
>> "The past resembles the future as water resembles water" -- Ibn Khaldun
>>
>> If you wish to email me, try putting a dot between alan and lothian.
>> Blueyonder is a thing of the past.
>
> others I have heard of five interrogations between the entry gate and
> the boarding ramp.
Bombay has four 'stop and ask', plus another three inspections of
documents.
People with a real terrorist problem tend to be meticulous about such
things.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Jack Linthicum
bug...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> In article
> <4e169a1c-01e2-422f-9de4-77730fd74edc@up
> sg2000gro.googlegroups.com>,
Just once I would like to see one of these people with the bombs be
located in the first class section. Nice suit, expensive carry-on,
orders a martini, says "hello" to the sky marshal stuck in tourist
wearing the only other suit and tie on the plane.
Richard
> The Christmas day Froot of the Loon underwear bomber got me thinking
> of what a soft target an aircraft filled with passengers is. The
> terrorists does not have to destroy the plane to cause terror or to
> kill.
> Consider if he simply had bleach and ammonia to mix together. He'd
> make Chlorine gas aboard a sealed aircraft. I doubt more than a few
> people would get sick but still frightening. Can the pilot cause the
> oxygen masks to drop without a drop in cabin pressure?
> What if he had either sodium or potassium cyanide powder which is easy
> to buy. Mixed with any acid it produces cyanide gas. If he had the
> powder in his shorts, all he has to do is get some orange juice and
> pour it into his lap. How much trouble would this cause?
> Easily to obtain calcium carbide in his shorts and all he has to do is
> pour a pint of water in his lap and you get huge volumes of acetylene
> gas and then he flicks his Bic and BOOOOOOM.
> The answer: Profiling. Yup, you aint gonna find a bunch of
> Scandanavian girls scouts with bombs in their panties but those guys
> from islamo countries with islamo names or who even look islamo might
> need some serious consideration. Not PC but sometimes reality sucks.
You guys really over think this. We had a much better system back in
the skydiving days; the first rule was "never get on the first load on
Sunday".
Stale beer farts + Texas barbeque + jalapenos + beans (lots and lots
of beans) + hangover = disaster in the sky at 8000' when the
outgassing really begins. Substitute black beans and add an egg or
too for sulfer and you really had a party...and this was with the
cargo door OPEN.
Bombs are for wankers and nitwits.
dott.Piergiorgio
> I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
> unpleasant these days.
well, here are many serious questions of the "No Fly" list, because,
well, you will have many troubles in putting yourself in the no-fly
list, because, well, you're a good, natural-born US citizen, whence EU
people has less troubles in ending in this "No fly" list, and of course,
muslim people & citizen of Islamic countries finds too easy being in
this list, perhaps finding their inclusion in said list only at the
airport gate...
EU people always dislike the "american exceptionalism", and was already
pissed off by the forcing of the biometric passports by the former US gov't.
I can infer that the true attack here is against the current admin's
main foreign policy (Personally I feel that interrogating the (failed)
martyr about his *training* will help much more on the intelligence side
than the other topics.....)
there's also many facets and subtleties on the general airline safety in
relation to foreign people, diplomatic relations/talks and general
perception of the involved country & their citizens, but will be a
rather long writing....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott, Piergiorgio
dott.Piergiorgio
>> IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
>> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to William
>> Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be when a
> significant element of the threat is foreign nationals entering the U.S. on
> flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
I'm wrong or there are already definite protocols for technical trips of
(armed) law-enforcement people outside the country ? without these,
let's say, extradition procedures can't be implemented....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
William Black
> Frogwatch ha scritto:
>
>> I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
>> unpleasant these days.
>
> well, here are many serious questions of the "No Fly" list, because,
> well, you will have many troubles in putting yourself in the no-fly
> list, because, well, you're a good, natural-born US citizen, whence EU
> people has less troubles in ending in this "No fly" list, and of course,
> muslim people & citizen of Islamic countries finds too easy being in
> this list, perhaps finding their inclusion in said list only at the
> airport gate...
The only way to find your self on the 'no fly' list at the gate is to
try and fly to the USA without a visa.
dott.Piergiorgio
> The sky marshall program keeps getting cut because the terrorists have
> stopped their activities. Did you know there are RCMP on every flight
> to Ronald Reagan National Airport? But apparently not Dulles.
>
> My idea would be to have an evaluation of the passengers made by
> someone in the security process. If they sense that one or more
> passengers are potential terror types, they seat a sky marshal on the
> aisle seat opposite theirs.
urgh... If I understand correctly your "sense" above substantially
you're asking for senior & very expert law-enforcement NCO's (that is,
our standard Maresciallo dei Carabinieri in his 50s and 30 years of
service, capable of assessing people at glance...) at every gate of
every airport.... it's utterly impossible.
dott.Piergiorgio
> My idea would be to have an evaluation of the passengers made by
> someone in the security process. If they sense that one or more
> passengers are potential terror types, they seat a sky marshal on the
> aisle seat opposite theirs.
>
>
> we can't run or police every airport in the world.
As pointed above, if I have understand correctly a central point in
Jack's idea, I fear that he's suggesting an impossible solution...
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
> Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
As pointed in a post above here, this is perhaps the *real* objective of
the failed (?) bombing....
If us is forced to ask, or worst, impose profiling, or whatever else, of
foreign (read: not US citizien) the core of Obama's strategy is in shambles.
> No more Political Correctness.
... and back to square one, with every other country more wary of the US
of A than during the previous administration....
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
William Black
> Jim Yanik ha scritto:
>
>> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights. Then give
>> the real suspects the scrutiny.
>
> As pointed in a post above here, this is perhaps the *real* objective of
> the failed (?) bombing....
>
If you're going to be effective everyone of African, South Asian,
Central Asian, Polynesian and Arab origin will need screening.
That's going on for a half of the world's population...
You might as well not bother...
Jack Linthicum
There are a certain number of airports which serve the United States
in Europe. Israel manages to have a man on every flight there and some
to other places.
If, as the Republicans insist, this is truly a War on Terrorism, and
not just another empty slogan, then certainly one brigade of 5,000 men
could be organized and stationed at these airports in groups of 40-50,
platoon-sized, and assigned as needed on flights.
There are plenty of your American version of the Maresciallo dei
Carabinieris newly retired and wanting to continue service. It just
takes organization, we have the Israeli example and at the present
time enough agitation to "do something".
dott.Piergiorgio
>> A bit on the TV news says Farouk came to Houston, which has a very
>> large Nigerian population, for a 17-day series of classes in 2008.
>>
>> http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7193124
>
> Which only means he had a passport, a valid visa and money for a flight.
>
> Which makes the story about no passport very unlikely.
Interesting this bit of info, by my perspective (I must point that US
foreign student programs and higher education in the US of A is still
the better, esp. in the long run, for building goodwill toward US of A;
and I should also point that the current US president is more than well
aware of this, at least for the mere fact that, well, his very existence
is because of this...)
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Jim Yanik
news:311220090534203835%alanl...@mac.com:
> In article
><45547f3c-3a8f-4aea...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
> BlackBeard <spk...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Pshaaw... If the bullet will penetrate the skull it will easily
>> penetrate the aircraft skin.
>
> That's why they are trained to shoot them into skulls, not airframes.
More chance of them -bouncing off- a skull,or being deflected by bone and
not a "stopper".
> But they are relatively low-velocity and pure soft lead. More splat
> than punch, although if it's your skull you'll never notice the
> difference.
>
>
>> Modern airlines are a pressurized beer-
>> can with lots of ribbing. I've put holes in them with a screw-driver,
>> let alone all the projectiles we've tested on them.
So what?
the chances of a bullet damaging anything critical is nil,and
sometimes,it's necessary to shoot THROUGH things to get the bad guy,like a
seat back or bulkhead.
Israeli "Sky marshals" probably carry .22's because they're easier to
control,light and compact.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
dott.Piergiorgio
> Full-body under-the-skin scanning, hopefully - and a mandatory global
> registering policy for breast implants.
>
> Just think of the amount of liquids you could safely store in a pair of
> DDs....
mh....
So, on paper, bad people need an above-suspicion woman (defined as
"obviously western and of western mindset") with:
1) A serious flat chest complex
2) An intrinsic weakness of mind
3) An unhealty romantic passion for "Arabic cause".
Being in contact with environments whose one can find womans with these
parameters I knew exactly zero women whit all these parameters, only one
with two of three parameters (and lacking parameter being 1) I can
safely hassume she's not harmful) and under a score of womens with only
one of the three parameters, incl. buxom womans.
I guess the proposal can be safely dismissed ;) :D ;D
The other proposal (under the skin scansion, perhaps through the
garments) can led to a can of worm, if we consider the "faking
buxomness" side; there's a definite advantage in the Islamic dress code,
that is easy to faking buxomness, and I guess that no sharia law or
fatwa forbid husband & wife(wes) to put, say, well cushioned
undergarments for mere matters of pride (here in Italy, the best course
of action toward a woman whose was operated of breast cancer is
pretending of not knowing about it and admiring her "bosom" (trust me,
here if one do a poll on surgical operations and compare the results
with tha actual statistics. there will be *huge* discrepancies between
polled and actual data on mastectomy and aesthetic surgery....)
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
P.s. I can beg to have acknowledges of reading ? I have endured great
pain in wording for obvious anti-spam related reasons.....
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
Is This Really an Intelligence Failure? Real Talk on Abdulmutallab
Digg Tweet By Spencer Ackerman 12/31/09 9:09 AM
In an appearance on “Democracy Now!” yesterday morning to discuss Umar
Farouk Abdulmutallab, I made the point that Abdulmutallab’s ability to
board Northwest Airlines Flight 253 demonstrates a policy failure more
than an intelligence failure. By that I meant that the threat
information acquired on Abdulmutallab was insufficient to ground him,
based on the bureaucracy’s process for placing someone on the no-fly
list. And for seemingly good reason: the input on him leading to the
conclusion that he was dangerous was his father’s Nov. 19 appeal to
officials at the U.S. embassy in Abuja.
As investigation into the case continues, there’s some new information
that complicates that picture. First, the CIA, after hearing his
father’s concern, compiled a profile of Abdulmutallab consisting of
non-specific information, but apparently declined to share it with the
National Counterterrorism Center. And the National Security Agency
picked up communications from al-Qaeda’s Yemeni affiliate indicating
that the group was looking to use a “Nigerian” in an unspecified
terrorist attack, according to The New York Times. That also didn’t go
to the NCTC.
New information may surface. But based on this, is it really fair to
point the finger at the intelligence community here? Abdulmutallab’s
father told embassy officials in Abuja that he didn’t know where his
son was, but might be in Yemen. The CIA had that information. NSA has
information that a Nigerian might be used for an attack sponsored by
al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. If all of this had gone into the
NCTC, would someone have put two and two together — setting off the
process for pulling Abdulmutallab’s visa or putting him on the no-fly?
Maybe. And the rationale for the all-source, multi-agency NCTC is all
about intelligence sharing. But remember: the inputs are that the
guy’s dad says he’s dangerous; he’s Nigerian; he might be in Yemen;
and al-Qaeda in Yemen may be looking to use a Nigerian in a
forthcoming attack. Is that really enough?
The answer to that question most certainly requires a policy decision,
not an intelligence decision. The intelligence community is drinking
from a fire hose of data, a lot of it much more specific than what was
acquired on Abdulmutallab. If policymakers decide that these thin
reeds will be the standard for stopping someone from entering the
United States, then they need to change the process to enshrine that
in the no-fly system. But it will make it much harder for people who
aren’t threatening to enter, a move that will ripple out to effect
diplomacy, security relationships (good luck entering the U.S. for a
military-to-military contact program if, say, you’re a member of the
Sunni Awakening in Iraq, since you had contacts with known
extremists), international business and trade, and so on. Are we
prepared for that?
Similarly, there’s a reasonable issue to investigate about
intelligence-sharing processes even in the pre-specific-threat level.
But remember: that just increases the firehose of data NCTC must
process. Information is supposed to filter up to NCTC in strength and
specificity from the component intelligence agencies so that NCTC
isn’t overwhelmed. If we want to say that there should be a lower
standard for sharing with NCTC, fine. But then either NCTC needs to be
given more resources, or we risk missing the next Abdulmutallab
because NCTC’s analysts will be drowning in nonspecific data and
trying to rope it to flotillas of additional information. It’s
reasonable to ask, however, what the CIA did post-Nov. 19 to
investigate Abdulmutallab specifically. But it’s also important to
remember that barely a month passed between his father’s warning and
Flight 253.
None of this is to excuse any complacency. It’s to provide context for
evaluating whatever complacency occurred.
dott.Piergiorgio
> As near as he ever said he admits he asked his son how they would
> handle the lock and that was a s far as he got in this "innocent"
> discussion. So learn, there are people whose job it is to prevent
> occurences, and they do not give a rat's ass damn what your intent
> was, only that you made a statement that would sound like a criminal
> act.
... and of course the pro look carefully, memorize and discuss later at
the base... (been here, done that: riot successful)
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
> Pshaaw... If the bullet will penetrate the skull it will easily
> penetrate the aircraft skin. Modern airlines are a pressurized beer-
> can with lots of ribbing. I've put holes in them with a screw-driver,
> let alone all the projectiles we've tested on them.
> However the commonly held belief that the vessel would explosively
> decompress (from previously mentioned bullet) lives only in Hollywood
> conditioned- and Arthur Hailey's fertile imagination. Just as cars
> explode anytime all four wheels leave the ground. ;)
as concurring & naval content, it's like shoring leaks; and is obvious
that "shoring" [1] a .22 hole is much more easy than "shoring" [1] a
hole in the .38-.44 range (aside that with .22 holes there's more time
to dive to safer (pressure-wise) altitudes)
[1] I don't know the aeronautical term for this....
Best regard from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
dott.Piergiorgio
> That's got to be 25 years in the federal pen. Come to think of it, even
> a non-federal pen would make a hole in an airliner's skin.
ma RRRROOOOOTTTTFFFFLLLL !!!!
*CONGRATS* for the excellent pun !!!!
Best regards between the laughs,
Dott. Piergiorgio laughing like a mad hyena !
dott.Piergiorgio
> Let's be nice y'all. I did not intend this to be a thread on
> politics.
> After considering all the ways somebody could cause havoc on an
> airliner, it is tempting to swear off flying.
> I doubt that any technology could detect all the ways someone could
> cause trouble which is why I am suggesting profiling, it is simply
> technically easier than anything else and probably more successful.
successfully, yes, but at a too dearly price, namely, the total loss of
well-whishing toward US of A,
> Yes, people will be charged with "Flying while muslim" but that is
> Islams problem. They caused it, they can do all they can to reverse
> the image.
now, let's suppose for a moment, an actual democratic muslim country.
The people are really pissed off by the discriminatory acts, and are fed
up of them, notwhistanding the efforts of US State dept. in apologising
and pouring out reparation dollars, what choice have the democratically
elected officials in not being ousted of offuice in the next election ?
hint: what is the main, and sole, economic leverage not few muslim,
countries have ?
and I can point out that is really hard to explain military retaliations
against a democratically elected gov't whose merely act on their
People's wills, esp. when nearby other major powers have more or less
icy relation ?
Aside that even dictatorship or theocracies known that exists definite
limits in kowtowing & bowing to the US (or whatever) masters and closing
both eyes on mistratments, humiliations & mortifications of fellow
countryman abroad and the people are incensed & outraged by the
humiliating treatments & behavior against them...
(aside that the concept of dignity is different between cultures; asking
a muslim lady to remove the veil or headscarf for ID purposes is a
roughly equivalent to asking a western woman to publicly undress (Alan
can easily hear about the political-administrative affaire in france on
ID card photos, some years ago, solved, IIRC, with the escamotage of
equating muslim females to... nuns !)
(side joking note, I suspect that in the current airline safety
algorithms are something like this:
-- start pseudo-code --
if ID_photo_not_good=TRUE and citizenship=FRANCE and alarm_flag=TRUE then
if alarm_flag_cause=INCONSISTENCY then
if status=NUN and ((exist husband_name) or (children >1)
alarm flag=FALSE
alarm_flag_cause=NONE /*she's a french muslim, no problem*/
return
-- end pseudo-code --
of course I have done some bugs in this example, but I hope that the
essence of the joke is evident :D
Best regards from Italy,
Dott.Piergiorgio.
La N
Who pays for this?
- nilita
Mark Borgerson
@f5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, spk...@msn.com says...
on some types of engine to slow down or stop errant blades.
I wonder if any blades got thrown on the Hudson River inadvertent
amphibian?
Mark Borgerson
dott.Piergiorgio
> No sir, I was authorized.
> I spent my last ten working years in aircraft/weapons survivability.
> We worked for the USN, USAF, USMC, FAA, and NASA. Every major
> platform for the military had a congressional mandate to be tested in
> combat situations to prove it could survive a certain amount of battle
> damage. The FAA used us in cases like TWA 800, the LiOh fire in
> Florida, and another case in FLA where engine blades were thrown
> through the cabin. Also when the post 9/11 armed flight crew proposal
> came up I had the opportunity to help put more than 100 rounds through
> the cockpit and cabin of a platform.
> With NASA I worked for several years on the Spirit and Opportunity
> rover programs. I have my name (along with thousands of others) on
> Mars now. ;) Also my wife and I got to observe the landing telemetry
> from Pasadena.
> The screwdriver incident was on a challenge. A coworker was flying
> out the next day so I demonstrated the relative skin strength on a 737
> body we were using to test a protection system to save passengers when
> an engine came apart and tossed blades through the cabin.
> BTW the fix is there and worked, let's see if the airlines ever adopt
> it considering weight (fuel) and overall cost.
two things:
Firstly, was true that in same instances weakness in US military systems
was more or less publicily (that is, at least in front of the bunch of
the least untouchable congresscritters) by initiative of rather upset
upper middle and/or flag/general officiers ?
for sure there was the M2/3 Bradley incident, when, IIRC, a general
insisted in live test-firing of the armour using different angle of
impacts or something like this, and the XM2/3's involved ends utterly
destroyed (and in the end, with Gulf hindsight, was done the Right Thing)
Secondly, my open & warm congrats with deep esteem for your contribution
to a decisive scientific, technological & engineering success !!! Long
life and prosperity to Spirit and Opportunity !
(if you noticed, in other threads, I explained & advocate that the best
field and place for rebuilding the US tech advance (and world respect &
well-wishing, and even improve US economy) is in the (areo)space and not
defence field....) Not one but three glasses for you !
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Mark Borgerson
dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it says...
cause significant change in cabin altitude. After all the pressure
differential across that hole is probably only about 10PSI. I suspect
that the pressurization system could keep the cabin altitude
at a reasonable level for quite some time---if not indefinitely.
Mark Borgerson
Jack Linthicum
If they have any sense, the airlines, otherwise the government but
with some very strong restrictions on airline operations.
Thomas Womack
dott.Piergiorgio <dott.Pierg...@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote:
>Frogwatch ha scritto:
>
>> Let's be nice y'all. I did not intend this to be a thread on
>> politics.
>> After considering all the ways somebody could cause havoc on an
>> airliner, it is tempting to swear off flying.
>> I doubt that any technology could detect all the ways someone could
>> cause trouble which is why I am suggesting profiling, it is simply
>> technically easier than anything else and probably more successful.
>
>successfully, yes, but at a too dearly price, namely, the total loss of
>well-whishing toward US of A,
>
>> Yes, people will be charged with "Flying while muslim" but that is
>> Islams problem. They caused it, they can do all they can to reverse
>> the image.
>
>now, let's suppose for a moment, an actual democratic muslim country.
You don't need particularly to suppose; Turkey and Indonesia are both
perfectly credible examples, I think the elections in both places are
more believable than in the worst EU states (say, Romania).
They're big countries, they can mostly look after themselves, and
there's only a tiny chunk of elite in either who would contemplate
going to America - what does America offer Turks that the EU doesn't,
what does it offer Indonesians that Singapore and China together
can't? Customers, but convincing representatives of major American
importers, and those are really all you have to care about, to have a
look at the merchandise in-situ isn't a great problem. So I don't
_think_ that American visa policy would be able to swing an election
in either place. Trade policy definitely, but visas a lot less so.
I don't believe there's that much well-wishing towards the US
government left to lose there (though lots of personal enthusiasm for
Obama in Indonesia, of course).
Both countries have quite large navies, unsurprisingly given that each
has a world-class sea route nearby, though no ships larger than a
frigate; it would be briefly interesting to see from a comfortable
distance what happened if the Russians tried to force the Bosphorus,
it's not terribly wide and the Turks have fifteen decent submarines.
Tom
dott.Piergiorgio
> To that end it seems much easier to me
> to just blow yourself up in a terminal
> while waiting for your flight. Just keep
> going thru security points until you get
> caught and then blow yourself up. If you
> get thru, blow up the plane while in
> flight. And you don't have to get fancy
> with the explosives.
>
> Imagine how pleasant traveling by plane
> would be if they had to search everyone
> at the terminal entrance.
>
> Just a thought
I fully concur. Our indigenous terrorism has as basic targeting strategy
the highest non-protected objective (with some high-profile exception,
the most known and infamous was the entire Aldo Moro affair)
example... hmmm... how to get this understandable to foreigners not
knowing the Italian state hierarchy ? mmmm... let's use the Carabinieri
hierarchy, because everyone here understand well the military hierarchy.
Is the General escorted ? yes.
Is the Colonel escorted ? yes.
Is the Lieutenant-colonel escorted ? no. let's do a more deep
scouting... mmm... there's these tactical disavantage, let's pass.
Is the Major escorted ? no. more deep scouting... OK is feasible
.. let's start the planning... all OK ? well, let's go.
If someone follows Italian political scene, now should understand why
the last killing by Italian indigenous terrorism (that of Marco Biagi)
has started a large political flame because his protection escort was
rewoked (unwisely, as there was definitive warning signs)
Notice that the word escort ("scorta") is used in his original & true
meaning, that is, bodyguards.
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
La N
The airlines would have to cut costs in other areas then. Many, if not
most, are having trouble staying afloat economically. And we have seen how
passengers are already complaining about having to pay for their pillows
now!
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> In article <EE4%m.73881$813.11...@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
And I suspect some torpedo tubes available.
Friday, 11 September 2009
Turkey to receive Mk54 Torpedoes through FMS
Raytheon Co. said on 9th September 2009 Wednesday, that it received a
$19.3 million contract from the Navy to provide MK54 lightweight
torpedo hardware to the U.S. and Turkish navies.
Under the contract, the company said its Integrated Defense Systems
division will deliver 241 MK54 kits, including 100 that will be sent
to the Turkish Navy through a foreign military sales agreement.
Jack Linthicum
The concept of cheap air fares will take a big dive after the first
successful one of these attacks. Also the number of people using
airplanes.
As I said, if they have any sense they will pay for the extra
protection and advertise it. I saw a bit from 2001 where the Israelis
wanted to put their sky marshalls on U.S. domestic flights. Maybe a
contract there someplace?
David V. Loewe, Jr
<ohar...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Dec 30, 3:03�pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Jack Linthicum wrote:
>> > On Dec 30, 2:55 pm, "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> "Frogwatch" <ohara...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> This makes me wonder if full body pre-scanning is going to actually
>> >> come into effect universally at airports in the near future.
>> > That and the subsequent dating service are in the works.
>>
>> > Froggie wants to volunteer if they institute an underwear search. You
>> > know Farouk is now the "Undiebomber" don't you?
>>
>> Can you imagine how many people with camera phones at airports would be
>> sharing photos by email? �Kind of like baseball trading cards. �I'll give
>> you three of Mr. Lothian for four of Eugene.
>I am trying to get put on the "No Fly" list because flying is so
>unpleasant these days.
<shrug>
I flew to Chicago on Monday and back the next day and there was nothing
unpleasant about it at all.
--
"...you know, it seems to me you suffer from the problem of
wanting a tailored fit in an off the rack world."
Dennis Juds
La N
I don't disagree with you, btw. I think a lot of people would feel
reassured and maybe think the extra cost would be worth it knowing sky
marshalls were aboard. I would think that would be kind of a boring job for
the sky marshall 99 percent of the time ...;p
- nilita
Jack Linthicum
Maybe they could let him or her pick out one the passengers and pistol
whip them. Like the lottery.
BlackBeard
Thank you, but I was only one of thousands. At the bottom of the page
of this URL is a video entitled "Mars."
http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcwd/nawcwd/media_galleries/movies.htm
The work with the landers retro-rockets and Zylon bridle were
performed at our site. When you hear the countdown, that's me. ;)
BB
Jack Linthicum
Neat, a celebrity in the group.
If anyone wants to see how things are going for the Rovers
BlackBeard
wrote:
I wouldn't use that term, ever. :/
BB
Ray O'Hara
"Frogwatch" <dbo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ff0b6f2e-51b1-45d9...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 30, 10:42 pm, Frogwatch <dboh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 9:50 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "La N" <nilita2004NOS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:nWQ_m.57921$Db2.17322@edtnps83...
>
> > > Jim Yanik wrote:
> > >> Andrew Chaplin <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in
> > >>news:Xns9CF1A09494...@216.196.109.144:
>
> > >>> Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> > >>> news:b9e958c8-f50b-
> > >>> 4c40-8496-dad9d0db2...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > >>>> IIRC Farouk boarded a plane in Nigeria, changed planes in Amsterdam
> > >>>> and never left the confines of the"air" portion, according to
> > >>>> William Black. When did we send TSA people overseas?
>
> > >>> If you aren't sending sky marshals overseas, what use can they be
> > >>> when a significant element of the threat is foreign nationals
> > >>> entering the U.S. on flights from overseas, e.g.: the Shoe Bomber.
>
> > >> there's not that many Sky Marshals to go around.Never was.
>
> > >> besides,what good is a guy with a gun when a jihadi is trying to
> > >> detonate his bomb? (and maybe out of sight of the Marshall...)
>
> > >> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights.
> > >> Then give the real suspects the scrutiny.
>
> > >> No more Political Correctness.
>
> > > Okay, I'll bite. Could you provide categories of people who should be
> > > PROFILED?
>
> > > versus
>
> > > Those who should be given a pass?
>
> > > This is your homework for the day, Mr. Yanik. If you provide a good
> > > argument, I will myself email Mr. Obama with your suggestion!
>
> > > - nilita
>
> > muslim men with one way tickets and minimal luggage.
>
> If Jack wants to report me to TSA, I will be happy to give them the
> benefit of myimagination that is obviously more active than his.
> What about an ounce of sodium dropped into the toilet?
Does Ray truly think that those of us who oppose Obama would want a
successful aircraft terror attack when we also fly and when our own
families fly? Ray, that is truly sick and you owe us an apology. If
I WANTED a successful terror attack, would I be suggesting things to
look out for? Of course not. Simple logic proves Ray is wrong.
====================================================================
the p[eople who set the tone for the conmservatives would love a successful
attack they could pin on Obama.
Cheney,Limbaugh ,Demint, and many others would cream themselves if that
happened.
and they are doing everything to make it happen.
the enemy see how anti-administation you and your soulmates are. the
constant barrage by the right, birthers the party of no crowd,
the Al Qaeda leadership is politically astute and they know if they can get
any success you guys will go wild with it and do 3/4 of their work for them.
Kerryn Offord
> dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
>> Jim Yanik ha scritto:
>>
>>> It's Well past the time to PROFILE people on air flights. Then give
>>> the real suspects the scrutiny.
>>
>> of the failed (?) bombing....
>>
> Doubtful.
>
> If you're going to be effective everyone of African, South Asian,
> Central Asian, Polynesian and Arab origin will need screening.
>
> That's going on for a half of the world's population...
>
> You might as well not bother...
>
Besides,they'd just start sourcing "White Europeans"...
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