Marines no longer require dress blue uniform for death notification
Jack Linthicum
solemn event and deserves full honors.
March 20, 2005
THE NATION
Marines Want Dark Tone Out of Dress Blues
Green now will be worn for notifying relatives of the dead. Some say
the move is disrespectful.
By Tony Perry, Times Staff Writer
With the toll of Marines killed in Iraq mounting, the Marine Corps is
no longer requiring the Marines notifying families of such deaths to
wear the Corps' distinctive dress blue uniform.
The change, authorized by Commandant Gen. Michael Hagee, was made
because the public was beginning to associate the blue uniform, usually
worn during ceremonial or joyous occasions, with death and tragedy,
officials said.
Officers and senior enlisted Marines making notification visits are now
ordered to wear the Corps' green uniform, known as alphas.
The switch has caused a rift among active-duty and retired Marines.
Some, including recruiters and casualty assistance officers, applaud
the switch. But others say it smacks of disrespect for the dead Marines
and their families.
"Casualty notification is a solemn event and deserves full honors,"
said Col. John Toolan, who disagrees with the switch.
Toolan, who led the 1st Marine Regiment during the 2003 assault on
Baghdad and April's offensive in Fallouja, said the dress blues were a
perfect symbol of "a noble profession that must often balance the
euphoria of battles won and the pain of brothers lost."
But Gunnery Sgt. Cindy Grubb, operations chief for the Corps' casualty
branch, said wearing the dress blues while notifying families had begun
to associate the uniform unfairly with bad news. <more>
Arved Sandstrom
news:1111335807.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
As a former Marine, I must disagree with Colonel Toolan. The service uniform
is a dignified uniform, and I think it's exactly the appropriate uniform to
wear when doing casualty notification. I don't think blues are quite right,
and neither are cammies. Service dress strikes the correct balance, IMHO.
AHS
Peter Skelton
Question one - Doesn't it simply transfer the negative
connotation to a different uniform, one more commonly worn?
Question two - Is there a more formal situation?
Question three - Have the blues reached their best retired by
date?
Peter Skelton
Arved Sandstrom
news:kdkr31puc0qf38nqv...@4ax.com...[ SNIP ]
> >As a former Marine, I must disagree with Colonel Toolan. The service
uniform
> >is a dignified uniform, and I think it's exactly the appropriate uniform
to
> >wear when doing casualty notification. I don't think blues are quite
right,
> >and neither are cammies. Service dress strikes the correct balance, IMHO.
>
> Question one - Doesn't it simply transfer the negative
> connotation to a different uniform, one more commonly worn?
No, I don't think so. I can't explain exactly why, but I am mentally
visualizing the most correct and complete forms of wear of each of the three
grades of uniforms (utility, service and dress), and it just strikes me that
full service uniform is most tactful when doing this kind of nasty work.
It's a good-looking uniform, but it doesn't distract the bereaved.
> Question two - Is there a more formal situation?
A Marine Corps Birthday Dinner and Ball, and, no, I'm not being facetious.
Casualty notification is more serious, but it's not necessarily the most
formal. It may not be useful for notification of a death or injury to be
formal.
> Question three - Have the blues reached their best retired by
> date?
That's like asking, has the USMC NCO sword reached its best retired by date.
Try taking the right to carry a sword away from a Marine NCO - that's
hallowed ground, and one had best not go there. AFAIK, only NCO's in the US
Marines are allowed to carry a sword...NCO's in other branches are not.
I was fortunate enough to leave the Corps before they made it mandatory to
own dress blues. IG and CG inspections are already enough of a pain in the
ass when you have to maintain immaculate sets of camo and service uniforms.
I, like many others, had complete sets of "inspection stuff" and "usage
stuff." Where that was impracticable, as with the entrenching tool or
canteens, we spent way too many hours sanding, spraypainting, Armor-All'ing,
slushing with Listerine, brushing with toothpaste, blah blah blah.
AHS
Guy Alcala
Presumably the funeral itself would be at least as formal, so I presume that
dress blue will still be worn then? I suspect the problem is that any marine
family with family members serving in Iraq/Afghanistan has begun to freak out
whenever they see someone driving in their neighborhood in dress uniform. Of
course, seeing a chaplain and a senior officer get out of a car in front of your
house probably has much the same effect. Or in an earlier age, the Western
Union deliveryman. There's no good way to do it, only gradations of bad.
Guy
Arved Sandstrom
news:423E42A3...@junkpostoffice.pacbell.net...
This is a good starting link:
https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/aspweb/ministry.asp
>I suspect the problem is that any marine
> family with family members serving in Iraq/Afghanistan has begun to freak
out
> whenever they see someone driving in their neighborhood in dress uniform.
Of
> course, seeing a chaplain and a senior officer get out of a car in front
of your
> house probably has much the same effect. Or in an earlier age, the
Western
> Union deliveryman. There's no good way to do it, only gradations of bad.
I agree. Marine service uniform these days will not be a welcome sight at
the front door either.
AHS
renab...@aol.com
SNIP
No
The Dress Blue uniform is the equivalent of the civilian tuxedo while
the Service Uniform is the equivalent of the business suit. I honestly
can't remember people wearing a tuxedo to a funeral, so the change
seems appropraite.
Glenn Dowdy
<renab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111386317.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> The Dress Blue uniform is the equivalent of the civilian tuxedo while
> the Service Uniform is the equivalent of the business suit. I honestly
> can't remember people wearing a tuxedo to a funeral, so the change
> seems appropraite.
Nice explanation. When I served as funeral offficer, I wore the service
uniform, not dress blues.
Glenn D.
Glenn Dowdy
"Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:vJq%d.81395$i6.39323@edtnps90...
>> Question one - Doesn't it simply transfer the negative
>> connotation to a different uniform, one more commonly worn?
>
> No, I don't think so. I can't explain exactly why, but I am mentally
> visualizing the most correct and complete forms of wear of each of the
> three
> grades of uniforms (utility, service and dress), and it just strikes me
> that
> full service uniform is most tactful when doing this kind of nasty work.
> It's a good-looking uniform, but it doesn't distract the bereaved.
>
I agree, and I'd want the same rules for the Army: wear the green service
uniform for notifications and funerals.
In over four years on active duty, I wore my dress blues more than I wore
the green service uniform.
Glenn D.
Arved Sandstrom
news:AmC%d.1987$R_6...@news.cpqcorp.net...
When I was in ('86-'92) not very many Marines had dress blues at all. Number
one, they weren't required (except for certain units), although now they are
issue to everyone, as I understand it. Number two, if you owned a set of
dress blues, that was something else to get inspected on an IG or CG...one
usually wants to minimize, not maximize, the amount of stuff that you have
to maintain.
At least in the Fleet Marine Force, I don't remember very many people
turning out in dress blues for the Corps Birthday dinner or ball even. Most
people simply didn't have them.
In my command (2nd MarDiv) we had a service dress Friday, when we were in
garrison. On Fridays you wore service dress, unless you had essential work
to do that would have ruined the uniform. It's not a stupid idea - the
service uniform is semi-form fitting, hence tailored, and a regular day per
week to see whether it still fits your bod is pretty reasonable.
AHS
Glenn Dowdy
>>
>> In over four years on active duty, I wore my dress blues more than I wore
>> the green service uniform.
>
> When I was in ('86-'92) not very many Marines had dress blues at all.
I was a zero, and it was required. I think that of our Sr NCOs, only our
battalion sergeant major had blues.
Glenn D.
Joe Osman
worn at funerals in order to show the solemnity of the situation. I
don't think that anyone cares what the person telling them that their
loved one is dead is wearing, but if even one wife is spared a moment
of fear when she sees a man in dress blues drive down her street, then
I'm all for the change to greens.
One of the changes in military manners since I got out that I
dislike is the exageratted slow movements of salutes at funerals. I
think that the lesser services started out doing this because it makes
coordination of movements among members of the burial detail a lot
easier.
The other change is the challenge coin business, which seems
almost Cub Scout in its immaturity.
Joe
CJ Adams
"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.n...@hpspam.com> wrote
> Mess dress is more equivalent to tails or a morning coat, not the ordinary
> tuxedo.
>
Mess kit is military evening wear, equivalent to civilian black tie
(tux/dinner jacket) or white tie (tails). Morning coat is civilian formal
day dress, suitable for before 6pm.
Cheers
CJ Adams
Arte et Marte
Thomas Schoene
>
> The Dress Blue uniform is the equivalent of the civilian tuxedo while
> the Service Uniform is the equivalent of the business suit. I honestly
> can't remember people wearing a tuxedo to a funeral, so the change
> seems appropraite.
People do sometimes wearing morning coats, which are the equivalent of black
tie for day wear. It's a tradition that has mostly fallen by the wayside in
private life, but is maintained in state occasions (Prince Edward wore one
to the Queen Mother's funeral, being the only of her grandsons not entitled
to military uniform.)
Having been to a Marine funeral (for my great uncle) where the honor guard
wore their blues, despite being turned out on very short notice,* I'm very
grateful that they did. Greens would not have been as impressive, or as
comforting. There's a solemnity that the blues bring that no other uniform
in the US military can match.
* Funeral home called the wrong office at Quantico and the sergeant who took
the message failed to relay it to the proper people. Still, they turned out
pallbearers, firing squad, bugler, and officer in charge (a light Colonel)
on 45-minute's notice. I was impressed, and deeply honored.
--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872
Bob McKellar
"Thomas Schoene" <tasc...@earthlink.invalid> wrote in message
news:YcJ%d.1218$S46...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
and dungarees. We were going out for a one day cruise, and a chaplain with
a package of ashes hitched a ride.
Once far enough out, we went to all stop and held a brief ceremony, very
businesslike, and the chaplain sprinkled the ashes over the side and we went
back to work.
I thought then, "That's how I want to go!" I still do.
Bob McKellar, who is not in any hurry, mind you.......
renab...@aol.com
Joe Osman wrote:
> Mess dress is more equivalent to the tuxedo.
SNIP
Technically that may be true, but I never saw anyone wear Mess Dress in
my entire Army officer career. Officers were required to own Dress
Blues and all personnel were required to have one set each of summer
and winter weight Army Greens. Dress Blues was an optional purchase for
enlisted peronnel. A few enlisted peronnel - bandsmen and members of
the Honor Company of the 1st Battalion, Third Infantry - which provides
the guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns - spring to mind, had Blues
issued to them. Dress White and Mess Blues and Whites were optional
purchases for all peronnel - and given the likelihood of your having
the opportunity to wear them, I never knew anyone, officer or enlisted,
who owned them.
So Blues became the de facto formal wear of the Army, with Greens being
an acceptable substitute (sometimes with a bow tie - which IIRC was not
authorized by regulation, but accepted in some units) for enlisted
personnel.
When I served as OIC of a funeral detail, I and my troops all wore our
Army Greens - if for no other reason, to look uniform.
And I can remember one Regimental dining in at the end of a large
exercise to celebrate that all the battalions of the 60th Infantry were
temporarily on the same post for the first time in a generation where
the uniform of the day was fatigues. No one had packed their Blues in
their A Bag when going on a FTX that would last longer than a month...
Arved Sandstrom
news:M7udnc47hdu...@comcast.com...
>
[ SNIP ]
> One of the best USN funerals I ever attended was mostly in working khakis
> and dungarees. We were going out for a one day cruise, and a chaplain
with
> a package of ashes hitched a ride.
>
> Once far enough out, we went to all stop and held a brief ceremony, very
> businesslike, and the chaplain sprinkled the ashes over the side and we
went
> back to work.
>
> I thought then, "That's how I want to go!" I still do.
>
> Bob McKellar, who is not in any hurry, mind you.......
I'm in no hurry either, but join the club, my man. I want to be cremated
myself, and sprinkled out over the shores of Nova Scotia. I don't see why
the bugs in any one specific location should have a shot at me...let 'em all
have a chance.
My maternal grandmother joined her dead husband, in Estonia, by travelling
in an urn. Fairly complicated arrangements involved. I may have a few ounces
of me shipped over there when I bite the bullet.
I don't know how citizens would react, but me personally, I wouldn't care
about the uniform, as long as it was neat and clean (for in garrison).
*Really* casual would be strolling up to the door for a casualty
notification in sandals, shorts, a flowered short-sleeved shirt and
sunglasses...that would bother me.
AHS
Jack Love
wrote:
I've got my Dad's ashes upstairs. One would have thought that would
have been his choice as well: not. He apparently saw enough
'throwing over the side' that he couldn't stand the idea, so I've been
negotiating with my mother for the last 10 years trying to find an
acceptable location...I think we're likely to put a cairn on my
sister's Hood Canal property and put them both under it. Probably
illegal, but who will know.
Fred J. McCall
:I agree. Marine service uniform these days will not be a welcome sight at
:the front door either.
I can remember the days when you didn't even want to see a staff car
come into the neighborhood because you knew what it meant....
--
"The way of the samurai is found in death. If by setting one's heart
right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his
body were already dead, he gains freedom in The Way. His whole life
will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling."
-- "Hidden in the Leaves", Hagakure
TOliver
>
> "Joe Osman" <Joseph...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1111423965.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> Mess dress is more equivalent to the tuxedo.
>
> tuxedo.
>
morning coat or cutaway and should only be prescribed for wearing after
1800. It is comparable to both civilian dinner dress (AKA "tuxedo") and
full dress ("white tie and tail coat"). The Navy at least has no special
"full bore" rig for after dark, and "full dress" whites or blues are the
equivalent of morning coat/cutaway.
TMO
Arved Sandstrom
news:n75v31lbml2jmv64h...@4ax.com...
[ SNIP ]
> I've got my Dad's ashes upstairs. One would have thought that would
> have been his choice as well: not. He apparently saw enough
> 'throwing over the side' that he couldn't stand the idea, so I've been
> negotiating with my mother for the last 10 years trying to find an
> acceptable location...I think we're likely to put a cairn on my
> sister's Hood Canal property and put them both under it. Probably
> illegal, but who will know.
There is a Friesian joke that involves a sandclock and grandfather. "Grandpa
must still do work - we all do work."
As far as your parents go, use them to fertilize trees. My parents are
getting pretty close to writing things off, and I see no need for them to be
entombed in caskets. I've already informed everyone that I personally wish
to be burnt up.
AHS
Glenn Dowdy
"Joe Osman" <Joseph...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1111423965.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Mess dress is more equivalent to tails or a morning coat, not the ordinary
tuxedo.
Glenn D.
BF Lake
"TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4IP%d.36201$8D.1...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> > Mess dress is more equivalent to tails or a morning coat, not the
ordinary
> > tuxedo.
> >
> In the USN, Mess dress (or dinner dress) bears no relationship to the
> morning coat or cutaway and should only be prescribed for wearing after
> 1800. It is comparable to both civilian dinner dress (AKA "tuxedo") and
> full dress ("white tie and tail coat"). The Navy at least has no special
> "full bore" rig for after dark, and "full dress" whites or blues are the
> equivalent of morning coat/cutaway.
The RCN had/has a similar system . We had two levels of mess dress: dress
and undress. The undress version lacked the gold stripe down the pant legs
and the pants had pockets. ISTR a simpler shirt also. And a maybe a
cummerbund instead of a waistcoat?--(not a "vest" you dummy, Never call a
waistcoat a vest, you colonial Canadian trash) The full rig had a wing
collar and black bow tie, etc. The idea was that the full rig was
equivalent to civilian "white tie" (even though the bow tie was black) and
the undress was "black tie" level . You would never wear either rig until
evening. In the daytime you wore a "lounge suit" (being "lounge lizards"?)
for formal (or is that informal?- There's another thing nobody understands
with plain clothes.)
Apparently we got all this from Edward VII when Prince of Wales--he and his
cronies kept undesirable people away by having all sorts of obscure rules
for dress at different occasions, so if you showed up wearing the wrong
colour socks to a snipe shoot, you were sent to Coventry. I know we were
strictly taught that officers never wore a belt with their raincoats, only
the lower classes did that, and never to wear a pin or tack in your tie as
that was a sure sign you were not a gentleman, also no Windsor knot unless
you are a used car salesman--only a four-in-hand please.
The trouble was by the1960s in Canada, neither RCN officers or civilians had
a clue about white tie and black tie. Some badly taught naval officers even
got married in mess dress instead of their "number ones" . I think the
average civilian now (who wears his cap in people's houses and restaurants
and even at the table without the slightest hint of embarrassment) for
formal occasions will wear a rented tux and change his daytime John Deere
ball cap for a cleaner, newer, Home Depot ball cap to wear at dinner.
Regards,
Barry
Brian Sharrock
>
> "Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:_CR%d.1460$Xq6...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Joe Osman" <Joseph...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:1111423965.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> The other change is the challenge coin business, ...
> >
> > What's the 'challenge coin business' ?
> >
> Some units and schools have an unofficial commemorative coin given to /
> purchased by members / graduates. Once issued, you're supposed to carry
this
> coin at all times. The challenge comes from other holders who believe that
> you aren't carrying yours, and so they present their coin as a challenge.
If
> you don't have your's, then you owe the challenger something: drinks,
> push-ups, whatever. If you do, then the challenger owes you.
>
> I ended up carrying four of these silver dollar sized coins by the time I
> got out. A friend who had served in a Ranger Battalion used to carry his
> coin in his soap dish to the communal showers; another Ranger would tape
his
> to the inside of his butt cheeks for the same errand.
>
> Glenn D.
>
Hmmm ... challenge coin ... thanks for the explanation;
what with Rings, BB-caps and coins you certainly have to
have a sharp attention to the dress code. Cub-scouts over
here seem to restrict themselves to left-handed hand shakes.
--
Brian
Glenn Dowdy
Ogden Johnson III
>Ogden Johnson III wrote:
>> "Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote:
>>>The USMC has always been very dapper. One of my issue items was a London Fog
>>>overcoat, and I still wear it. It's not exactly cheap, either. I did find it
>>>odd that we were issued a top-quality raincoat, but were not allowed to use
>>>umbrellas.
>> *That* was a post-1982 issue item. The previous "raincoat" had
>> been a rubberized nylon thing that, when worn for any period over
>> one hour, left one as wet inside it as you would have been
>> without it at all. We also had a "horse-blanket" green overcoat
>> that I never, once, saw any Marine ever wear, save for an IG
>> inspection or Div/Wing A&M inspection.
>Yeah, but that old GI surplus green overcoat, a tan wool shirt, and the
>green wool pants sure made a nice central Texas deer hunting ensemble
>way back when. Heck, I wasn't even in the Marines, I worked for the
>parent company. <VBG>
I *was* being a tad facetious about that overcoat. In hindsight,
once I had aged^Wmatured enough to find out about civvie
overcoats, I realized that it actually was not bad quality at
all, and it *was* a warm coat. Alas, was never station anywhere
that it was needed.
I was lucky coming in in 1961, tail end of the WWII/Korea era and
before the VN war and its aftermath killed off the last of the
"Old Corps". Still had "career" Corporals finishing off their 20
started in WWII. Several I met had been back and forth to/from
SSgt/GySgt a half-dozen times or more. The Ike jackets were no
longer issue, but if you could obtain the Marine one, it was
still authorized for wear, on base only - not for liberty,
anytime Winter Service A was the UD. We hadn't gone to the
all-year greens yet, so still wore trops/khakis as Summer
Service. Green trop shirts were still in the inventory, but now
as a unit issue item, two per man, for cold weather wear under
the utility uniform shirt. Still had enough troops wearing the
ranks from the pre-1959 pay-grade expansion that you always had
to specify the pay grade as well as the rank in certain
situations lest someone get confused.
Sigh. You had to start this, Arved. Get back to me on that
property, have I got a payback^Wdeal for you!
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]
Arved Sandstrom
news:wCV%d.101110$gJ3.18000@clgrps13...
>
[ SNIP ]
> The trouble was by the1960s in Canada, neither RCN officers or civilians
had
> a clue about white tie and black tie. Some badly taught naval officers
even
> got married in mess dress instead of their "number ones" . I think the
> average civilian now (who wears his cap in people's houses and restaurants
> and even at the table without the slightest hint of embarrassment) for
> formal occasions will wear a rented tux and change his daytime John Deere
> ball cap for a cleaner, newer, Home Depot ball cap to wear at dinner.
The USMC has always been very dapper. One of my issue items was a London Fog
overcoat, and I still wear it. It's not exactly cheap, either. I did find it
odd that we were issued a top-quality raincoat, but were not allowed to use
umbrellas.
I despise it myself when people wear caps in a house. Not much you can do
about it.
AHS
George Shirley
>>overcoat, and I still wear it. It's not exactly cheap, either. I did find it
>>odd that we were issued a top-quality raincoat, but were not allowed to use
>>umbrellas.
>
>
> been a rubberized nylon thing that, when worn for any period over
> one hour, left one as wet inside it as you would have been
> without it at all. We also had a "horse-blanket" green overcoat
> that I never, once, saw any Marine ever wear, save for an IG
> inspection or Div/Wing A&M inspection.
Yeah, but that old GI surplus green overcoat, a tan wool shirt, and the
green wool pants sure made a nice central Texas deer hunting ensemble
way back when. Heck, I wasn't even in the Marines, I worked for the
parent company. <VBG>
George
> The announcement of the incoming London Fogs to replace the
> raincoat/overcoat was /almost/ enough to make me reconsider
> retirement.
>
> [And if you buy that, I've got a little piece of land ...]
Brian Sharrock
"Joe Osman" <Joseph...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1111423965.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
snip
> The other change is the challenge coin business, ...
What's the 'challenge coin business' ?
> ...which seems
> almost Cub Scout in its immaturity.
>
--
Brian
Arved Sandstrom
news:ubk04155bsfu0c8ng...@4ax.com...
> "Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote:
>
> >The USMC has always been very dapper. One of my issue items was a London
Fog
> >overcoat, and I still wear it. It's not exactly cheap, either. I did find
it
> >odd that we were issued a top-quality raincoat, but were not allowed to
use
> >umbrellas.
>
> been a rubberized nylon thing that, when worn for any period over
> one hour, left one as wet inside it as you would have been
> without it at all. We also had a "horse-blanket" green overcoat
> that I never, once, saw any Marine ever wear, save for an IG
> inspection or Div/Wing A&M inspection.
The best cold/wet weather gear is Goretex for the low ranges, and poncho
with poncho liner for the higher ranges. As for the rubberized
nylon...Grrrrrrrrrr. The worthy dork who invented that probably also helped
to lose people to the civilian workforce.
> The announcement of the incoming London Fogs to replace the
> raincoat/overcoat was /almost/ enough to make me reconsider
> retirement.
>
> [And if you buy that, I've got a little piece of land ...]
Where is the land, Ogden? Is it beachfront property with a bridge?
I still like the fact that we could keep our uniform gear. I am pissed about
the fact that my trusty M16A2, whose number I still have recorded, I had to
leave behind. I've got my range book from 1986 still - those are hallowed
documents.
AHS
Ogden Johnson III
>The USMC has always been very dapper. One of my issue items was a London Fog
>overcoat, and I still wear it. It's not exactly cheap, either. I did find it
>odd that we were issued a top-quality raincoat, but were not allowed to use
>umbrellas.
*That* was a post-1982 issue item. The previous "raincoat" had
been a rubberized nylon thing that, when worn for any period over
one hour, left one as wet inside it as you would have been
without it at all. We also had a "horse-blanket" green overcoat
that I never, once, saw any Marine ever wear, save for an IG
inspection or Div/Wing A&M inspection.
The announcement of the incoming London Fogs to replace the
raincoat/overcoat was /almost/ enough to make me reconsider
retirement.
[And if you buy that, I've got a little piece of land ...]
Tiger
>Recruiters applaud the change but others say casualty notification is a
>solemn event and deserves full honors.
>
> March 20, 2005
>THE NATION
>Marines Want Dark Tone Out of Dress Blues
> Green now will be worn for notifying relatives of the dead. Some say
>the move is disrespectful.
>
>
>
>
>
A Armani suit won't make a widow feel better........ :-\
Glenn Dowdy
<renab...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1111453911.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Technically that may be true, but I never saw anyone wear Mess Dress in
> my entire Army officer career.
Our field grades had them, but no one else did. Looked very sharp.
Glenn D.
Jack Love
An interesting change: I remember the commentary on one of the operas
(I think it was Lucia di Lammermoor, with Beverly Sills, an amazing
performance late in her career) where one of the characters removed
his hat, actually sailed it across the stage, indicating a mortal
insult to the host in that it implied he was comfortably 'at home'
with all that implied.
But, you're right, these days I wish people would take their hats off
in doors.
>AHS
>
scott s.
@news.cpqcorp.net:
What is sharp, and I guess expensive, is the version the colonels and up
have.
scott s.
.
TOliver
"Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote...
>
> As a former Marine, I must disagree with Colonel Toolan. The service
> uniform
> is a dignified uniform, and I think it's exactly the appropriate uniform
> to
> wear when doing casualty notification. I don't think blues are quite
> right,
> and neither are cammies. Service dress strikes the correct balance, IMHO.
>
As usual, I find Arved's perspective in keeping with good order and
discipline. As a former serving naval officer from an era in which Uniform
Regs were more complex and far more sternly enforced, I find the current
practice of allowing naval and USMC personnel to appear in camo utilities in
environments for which the uniforms are entirely unsuitable (especially
stateside news conferences or naval officers and USN enlisted personnel
aboard ships or in offices) plumb farcical and pretentious. Even the old
"driving to and from work" permission for utilities or dungarees was
excessive deregulation, although the USN is grievously to be faulted for
failure to produce a serviceable and wearable "work" uniform
As for casualty notifications, "Service Dress" is certainly appropriate, and
the once traditional USMC turnout of blue trousers w/khaki shirt and field
scarf ("tie" to the uninitiated?) and white cover, a reasonable compromise.
With greens, I believe that the blouse should be worn.
Of course, I hope to bring back "Service Dress Khaki" for USN officers,
modernized by requiring oxblood cordovan shoes rather than "Issue Orange",
khaki rig for Marines, and OD "Ike jackets" and shirts, light contrasting
tie and "pinks" (khaki gab trousers of a pinkish hue much favored by better
dressed officers of the pre and early WWII periods) and "Silver Tans" for
the USArmy. For the Army, Sam Brown belts should be optional, but officers
of Cavalry, Armor, Mounted Engineers, Mechanized Infantry and Arty should be
optionally allowed to wear boots and jodhpurs (light khaki or "pink" with
white canvas reinforced seats). Flight suits should only be issued and worn
by aircrew traveling to or from aviation missions or during the mission (and
in "flight suit" messes or bars).
Of course, I'm so old that in my time, naval officers on "shore leave" in
the Med had only recently been freed from wearing hats (not caps, but straw
or felt dress hats, no cowboy shit either), and in port quarterdeck watches
when the ship was "open" were stood in Service Dress Blue or White (choker
collar), with Full Dress - swords, medals and white gloves - for official
visitors. Although the galley served extended hours, it remained customary
for the senior EM on duty to send to the QD or bridge a mess tray (carried
by a "clean" cook - white trousers, TShirt, apron, white hat) for sampling
and approval by the OOD. Bridge and QD coffee came in a silver pot (and one
of my COs didn't like stained mugs, forcing us to use cups and saucers UW on
the bridge). I clearly recall the day in 1964 when "ball caps" were first
permitted on the Bridge (but they remained taboo for "Sea Detail" for which
Service Dress remained in effect.
.....and then there were the debates over when watchstanders could wera
"seaboots" (never in port).
TMO
Peter McLelland
>
> "Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote...
> >
> > As a former Marine, I must disagree with Colonel Toolan. The service
> > uniform
> > is a dignified uniform, and I think it's exactly the appropriate uniform
> > to
> > wear when doing casualty notification. I don't think blues are quite
> > right,
> > and neither are cammies. Service dress strikes the correct balance,
IMHO.
> >
>
> As usual, I find Arved's perspective in keeping with good order and
> discipline. As a former serving naval officer from an era in which
Uniform
> Regs were more complex and far more sternly enforced, I find the current
> practice of allowing naval and USMC personnel to appear in camo utilities
in
> environments for which the uniforms are entirely unsuitable (especially
> stateside news conferences or naval officers and USN enlisted personnel
> aboard ships or in offices) plumb farcical and pretentious. Even the old
> "driving to and from work" permission for utilities or dungarees was
> excessive deregulation, although the USN is grievously to be faulted for
> failure to produce a serviceable and wearable "work" uniform
Fron an ex RN perspective I concur, things really have gone downhill since
my days too.
>
> As for casualty notifications, "Service Dress" is certainly appropriate,
and
> the once traditional USMC turnout of blue trousers w/khaki shirt and field
> scarf ("tie" to the uninitiated?) and white cover, a reasonable
compromise.
> With greens, I believe that the blouse should be worn.
I have mixed feelings on this one, yes the 'prpoer' dress shows respect to
both the departed and survivor, but equally the public announcement to all
of the purpose of the visit, it is of course the only reason some one would
wear the uniform to call on the house, may be equally upseting to some next
of kin who may wish to have more control over the news. All in all it is a
difficult problem dealing with death, it is far to easy to offend
un-intentionally.
>
> Of course, I hope to bring back "Service Dress Khaki" for USN officers,
> modernized by requiring oxblood cordovan shoes rather than "Issue Orange",
> khaki rig for Marines, and OD "Ike jackets" and shirts, light contrasting
> tie and "pinks" (khaki gab trousers of a pinkish hue much favored by
better
> dressed officers of the pre and early WWII periods) and "Silver Tans" for
> the USArmy. For the Army, Sam Brown belts should be optional, but
officers
> of Cavalry, Armor, Mounted Engineers, Mechanized Infantry and Arty should
be
> optionally allowed to wear boots and jodhpurs (light khaki or "pink" with
> white canvas reinforced seats). Flight suits should only be issued and
worn
> by aircrew traveling to or from aviation missions or during the mission
(and
> in "flight suit" messes or bars).
I remeber one of the divisional officers at Dartmouth was a major in the
17th/21st Lancers and his dress uniform was splendid, you could hear him
coming from miles away with those spurs jingling at each step. I certainly
saw no problem with wearing 5s every day, after all I still wear a jacket to
work, and a suit when dealing with customers. Certainly working rigs are for
working, and I find it some what depressing seeing RN officers in public in
a uniform that in may day was reserved for sea duty only, and then only then
if the captain allowed which not all did.
>
> Of course, I'm so old that in my time, naval officers on "shore leave" in
> the Med had only recently been freed from wearing hats (not caps, but
straw
> or felt dress hats, no cowboy shit either), and in port quarterdeck
watches
> when the ship was "open" were stood in Service Dress Blue or White (choker
> collar), with Full Dress - swords, medals and white gloves - for official
> visitors. Although the galley served extended hours, it remained
customary
> for the senior EM on duty to send to the QD or bridge a mess tray
(carried
> by a "clean" cook - white trousers, TShirt, apron, white hat) for sampling
> and approval by the OOD. Bridge and QD coffee came in a silver pot (and
one
> of my COs didn't like stained mugs, forcing us to use cups and saucers UW
on
> the bridge). I clearly recall the day in 1964 when "ball caps" were first
> permitted on the Bridge (but they remained taboo for "Sea Detail" for
which
> Service Dress remained in effect.
I was OK for the 'improved' coffee served on submarine bridges entering
harbour to be carrie up in a thermos flask, but that was down to the
practicalities of getting it there in a drinkable state, but it was still
propeer cups, but once again practicalitiies precluded saucers. If the
weather was bad the only acceptable dress on the bridge entering harbour for
submarines was a greatcoat, no modern plastic foul weather geer. Fortunately
we never got round to baseball caps, still hardly ever wear them.
Fortunately the wearing of hats as mandatory for officer proceeding ashore
in plain clothes had gone by my time too, but we were instructed in the
proper protocol for the wearing of hats in plain clothes and I did know
several who still carried on the tradition.
>
> .....and then there were the debates over when watchstanders could wera
> "seaboots" (never in port).
>
The only time I ever wore sea boots was bridge watchkeeping on a submarines
open bridge, at all other times in bad weather one wore what were known as
'steaming boots' which were relatively waterproof safety shoes/boots with
excellent non slip soles, they even worked reasonably well on greasy
engineroom plates.
Peter
Arved Sandstrom
news:4242e...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
We were allowed to wear the cammies in the USMC, in the '80's, for a direct
trip from work to home, and vice versa. Any other wear of them off base was
highly discouraged, or disallowed. Generally speaking, it was service dress
for any interaction with civilians - whenever I travelled it was in service
dress. When my Dad drove me home when I demobbed, it was service dress all
the way from North Carolina to the Maine-New Brunswick border.
We also had strict codes over civilian attire when people went on leave or
liberty. It was one of the jobs of the duty NCO in barracks to make sure
that the lads didn't go out on liberty just wearing T-shirts, and that they
were shaved. Admittedly, a rule not often enforced. However, a sweatshirt
with a "Aryans Rule - Mudpeople must die" slogan would have gotten you
stopped for sure.
[ SNIP ]
Peter McLelland
"Arved Sandstrom" <asand...@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:qCH0e.70035$ZO2.17578@edtnps84...
since
> > my days too.
>
> We were allowed to wear the cammies in the USMC, in the '80's, for a
direct
> trip from work to home, and vice versa. Any other wear of them off base
was
> highly discouraged, or disallowed. Generally speaking, it was service
dress
> for any interaction with civilians - whenever I travelled it was in
service
> dress. When my Dad drove me home when I demobbed, it was service dress all
> the way from North Carolina to the Maine-New Brunswick border.
When I retired in 75, you could wear 'air line pilot' rig (shirt with rank
bars on the shoulder) on base on duty in warm weather, and it was permisable
to wear from home to base as long as you wore a No 5 jacket over the shirt.
No 8s, Action Working Dress was allowed for home to base travel for ratings,
but only if in perfect condition.
>
> We also had strict codes over civilian attire when people went on leave or
> liberty. It was one of the jobs of the duty NCO in barracks to make sure
> that the lads didn't go out on liberty just wearing T-shirts, and that
they
> were shaved. Admittedly, a rule not often enforced. However, a sweatshirt
> with a "Aryans Rule - Mudpeople must die" slogan would have gotten you
> stopped for sure.
>
As a duty officer it would be my responsibility to ensure that ratings
proceeding on leave of any kind were properly dressed, but those who were
into some of the more extreme things just carried their stuff in a bag and
changed in the toilets of the first pub outside the gates.
Peter