did any US Troop ships ever get sunk in WW2 ???
henry jakala
just wondering
considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
happening
must have been psychological hell for those stuck below decks
knowing that the minute the ship takes a hit everyone would be
good as dead - how many troops to a ship on average ? gear
included or was that all on another ship ?
what about enemy troop ships ? any reported sinkings ?
Andrew Toppan
I don't think any of the _really_ big troopships were sunk. Smaller ones,
maybe. The biggest troopships were converted liners; the absolute biggest
being the "Atlantic Queens", RMS Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth (they
were Brit ships, but carrying US GIs).
The reason they were never touched is simple--speed. The loaded at New
York, each carrying 12,000 troops, then moved to Halifax (NS), with
escorts I think, and then took off for a trans-Atlantic sprint at 30+
knots. They were not escorted during the Atlantic crossing, and the
slowed or stopped for nothing. They picked up a cruiser/destroyer escort
as they approached England. Queen Mary sank part of her escort on one
trip--a cruiser blundered in front of her as the ships zig-zagged, and the
she was quickly chopped in half and sent to the bottom. Queen Mary didn't
stop for that either, lest a U-boat take advantage of the situation.
Queen Mary was _almost_ sunk by an enemy more powerful than the Germans--
Mother Nature. A huge wave rolled her onto her side, taking her to within
6 inches of the "point of no return". Had she gone a bit farther, she
would have filled through portholes, then through the funnels, and would
have gone down like a rock.
--
Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- el...@neunet.com
Rail, Sea and Air InfoPages -- http://www.wpi.edu/~elmer/
If Yoda so strong in force is, why words in right order he cannot put?
ste...@ix.netcom.com
jak...@netcom.com (henry jakala) wrote:
> just wondering
>
> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
> happening
> must have been psychological hell for those stuck below decks
> knowing that the minute the ship takes a hit everyone would be
> good as dead - how many troops to a ship on average ? gear
> included or was that all on another ship ?
> what about enemy troop ships ? any reported sinkings ?
>
My uncle's ship was sunk on the way over. I think he was in the 13th
Armored Division (not sure--been too long since I've seen him). He
was picked up but he didn't do much for the war effort after that. It
damn near killed him. I'm surprised he's still alive, in fact.
Andrew Toppan
Followup to a followup: The following "troopships" were sunk in
WWII. Amphibious assault transports not included.
Edward Rutledge (AP 52) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
George F. Elliot (AP 13) by Jap aircraft off Guadalcanal, 8 Aug 1942
Hugh Scott (AP 43) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
Joseph Hewes (AP 50) by U-173 off Morocco, 11 Nov 1942
Leedstown (AP 73) by German aircraft off Algiers, 9 Nov 1942
Susan B. Anthony (AP 72) by a mine off Normandy, 7 June 1944
Tasker H. Bliss (AP 42) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
Thomas Stone (AP 59) damaged by German aircraft off Spain, 7 Nov 1942;
abandonded at Algiers 25 Nov 1942
Based on the dates/places of these losses, I would surmise that
these ships were being used to transport troops into active combat
areas, rather than the trans-Atlantic shuttle the really big
ships were used for.
Mckellar
Cdr Helmut Somers of U-853 spotted Queen Mary speeding toward England in
spring (April?) 1944. He tried to get position for a shot but she was too
fast and he never fired......
Mark
Inca King
Well, it was not easy to sink a troop carrier to begin with.
The troop carriers were the most protected ships in any convoy
that cross the Atlantic. I think the way it was done is that
the convoy formed a square box, says fifty ships or more. So
ships sailed on the formation of seven rows and seven columns.
The troop ships would be on the middle of the square box,
protected on each side with at least three columns/rows of
transport. Any U-boat that try to score the troop carrier
would need
1. A decoy U boat to keep the escorts busy.
2. position in advance of the convoy.
3. sneak into the formation at night.
4. find the right ship.
5. fire torpedo on point blank range.
6. get away fast, really really fast.
As far as I know, no allied solders were lost on their way
to the European theater.
Ray Wilson
Henry,
National Geographic printed some wonderful pictures taken inside a US
troopship that is lying on the bottom of some lagoon in the Pacific.
Can't remember the reason for the sinking. Mine? Inhabitants
practically walked ashore. Most interesting picture: Thompson machine
gun with cleaning rod sticking out the muzzle. Owner left in haste.
Ray
henry jakala wrote:
>
> just wondering
>
> considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
> heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
> guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
>
Mckellar
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
ste...@ix.netcom.com
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
jak...@netcom.com (henry jakala) wrote:
> just wondering
>
> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
> happening
> must have been psychological hell for those stuck below decks
> knowing that the minute the ship takes a hit everyone would be
> good as dead - how many troops to a ship on average ? gear
> included or was that all on another ship ?
> what about enemy troop ships ? any reported sinkings ?
>
Inca King
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Well, it was not easy to sink a troop carrier to begin with.
henry jakala
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
just wondering
considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
Andrew Toppan
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
I don't think any of the _really_ big troopships were sunk. Smaller ones,
maybe. The biggest troopships were converted liners; the absolute biggest
being the "Atlantic Queens", RMS Queen Mary and RMS Queen Elizabeth (they
were Brit ships, but carrying US GIs).
The reason they were never touched is simple--speed. The loaded at New
York, each carrying 12,000 troops, then moved to Halifax (NS), with
escorts I think, and then took off for a trans-Atlantic sprint at 30+
knots. They were not escorted during the Atlantic crossing, and the
slowed or stopped for nothing. They picked up a cruiser/destroyer escort
as they approached England. Queen Mary sank part of her escort on one
trip--a cruiser blundered in front of her as the ships zig-zagged, and the
she was quickly chopped in half and sent to the bottom. Queen Mary didn't
stop for that either, lest a U-boat take advantage of the situation.
Queen Mary was _almost_ sunk by an enemy more powerful than the Germans--
Mother Nature. A huge wave rolled her onto her side, taking her to within
6 inches of the "point of no return". Had she gone a bit farther, she
would have filled through portholes, then through the funnels, and would
have gone down like a rock.
--
Andrew Toppan
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Followup to a followup: The following "troopships" were sunk in
WWII. Amphibious assault transports not included.
Edward Rutledge (AP 52) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
George F. Elliot (AP 13) by Jap aircraft off Guadalcanal, 8 Aug 1942
Hugh Scott (AP 43) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
Joseph Hewes (AP 50) by U-173 off Morocco, 11 Nov 1942
Leedstown (AP 73) by German aircraft off Algiers, 9 Nov 1942
Susan B. Anthony (AP 72) by a mine off Normandy, 7 June 1944
Tasker H. Bliss (AP 42) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
Thomas Stone (AP 59) damaged by German aircraft off Spain, 7 Nov 1942;
abandonded at Algiers 25 Nov 1942
Based on the dates/places of these losses, I would surmise that
these ships were being used to transport troops into active combat
areas, rather than the trans-Atlantic shuttle the really big
ships were used for.
--
Arved Sandstrom
In article <jakalaDy...@netcom.com> jak...@netcom.com (henry jakala) writes:
> just wondering
>
> considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
> heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
> guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
>
> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
> happening
>
Don't count on it.
> must have been psychological hell for those stuck below decks
> knowing that the minute the ship takes a hit everyone would be
> good as dead - how many troops to a ship on average ? gear
> included or was that all on another ship ?
>
>
> what about enemy troop ships ? any reported sinkings ?
>
I remember being on the Guad in the Gulf when the captain very helpfully
came up on the 1MC and said "We have incoming anti-shipping missiles".
Those were the ones that the British helped to deal with. Thank you very much.
We had 150-odd guys in a below-waterline compartment with _two_ small exits.
When we got that report, everyone started checking out their neighbours. "How
big are they?" "Can I stomp them in order to get to the hatch?"
I truly believe people would have been using those useless bayonets, because
I saw a couple of guys take them out and check them.
Probably the only parallel is when you're a troopie on a CH-46 or CH-53.
Realistically, the only people with a chance of getting out if the bird dives
into the sea are the crew - but for morale purposes they tell Marines that
they can get out, too. They even teach them how to do it. The only
problem is that you just flipped, you're full of water, there are 20 guys
in full gear with no breath in their lungs going spastic, and you're
supposed to calmly execute a pre-planned routine? I knew guys that carried
serious knives just so they could kill guys on the way out. Not because
they wanted to, but just to get them out of the way.
--
Arved H. Sandstrom * YISDER
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia * ZOMENIMOR
(at least for now) * ORZIZZAZIZ
best email: asnd...@emerald.bio.dfo.ca * ZANZERIZ ORZIZ
Fubar2X
Yes, troop ships were sunk during the Second World War. If I remember
correctly, there was a war on . . .
Some examples ( there were many others ) :
On Feb 3 1943 the SS DORCHESTER was sunk by a U-Boat off Greenland and
went down with 605 soldiers and crewmen. 4 chaplains gave their life
jackets to other soldiers and went down with the ship.
On Nov 26 1943 the SS ROHNA was sunk by a German guided bomb in the
Mediterranean and went down with 1015 US troops, more men than were lost
in the sinking of the INDIANAPOLIS.
On Dec 25 1944 the LEOPOLDVILLE was sunk by a U-Boat in the English
Channel and went down with 762 men, most of them from the 66th Infantry
Division. The total casualties suffered by the 66th ID in the ETO were
just 800 killed and 636 wounded; it was the only US division to have more
men killed than wounded, thanks to the LEOPOLDVILLE.
As for enemy sinkings ( just examples, there were many ) :
The single largest loss of life on any sinking in history was on the liner
WILHELM GUSTLOFF, torpedoed off Danzig on Jan 30 1945 by the Soviet
submarine S-13. Somewhere between 6000 and 8000 men went down with her.
In the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, US aircraft sank 8 Japanese troopships
on 3-4 March 1943. Between 3000 and 4000 Japanese troops drowned.
Fubar2X
Dwayne Allen Day
Fubar2X (fub...@aol.com) wrote:
: The single largest loss of life on any sinking in history was on the liner
: WILHELM GUSTLOFF, torpedoed off Danzig on Jan 30 1945 by the Soviet
: submarine S-13. Somewhere between 6000 and 8000 men went down with her.
Wasn't there also a large ship sunk AFTER the war was over in unexplained
circumstances? I seem to remember a ship going down with several
thousand people aboard after Japan gave up.
D-Day
--
1-If anything can go wrong, Fix It! (To hell with Murphy!
7-If you can't beat them, join them, then beat them.
19-The faster you move, the slower time passes, the longer you live.
Peter's Laws
Merlin Dorfman
Andrew Toppan (el...@WPI.EDU) wrote:
: Edward Rutledge (AP 52) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
...
: Hugh Scott (AP 43) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
...
: Tasker H. Bliss (AP 42) by U-130 off Morocco, 12 Nov 1942
U-130 was busy that day. Didn't we have any ASW capability
at all during the Torch landings?
Merlin Dorfman
DOR...@NETCOM.COM
W. ROLLINS
Fubar2X (fub...@aol.com) wrote:
: Yes, troop ships were sunk during the Second World War. If I remember
: correctly, there was a war on . . .
: Some examples ( there were many others ) :
When my Dad went to England during the pre D-Day invasion buildup he rode
the Queen Mary and they went at high speed without escort on the theory
that no uboat could keep up and the chances of one being in the right
place was slim.
BiNM
Andrew Toppan
Ray Wilson reshaped the electrons to say:
> National Geographic printed some wonderful pictures taken inside a US
> troopship that is lying on the bottom of some lagoon in the Pacific.
> Can't remember the reason for the sinking. Mine?
She blundered into a "friendly" minefield.
dunk...@utdallas.edu
Merlin Dorfman (dor...@netcom.com) wrote:
> U-130 was busy that day. Didn't we have any ASW capability
> at all during the Torch landings?
There was some, but you have to consider a few things:
The US had been surprised that they had not come under sustained attack
before the landings, and figured there were packs of U-boats in the area.
The US portion (Western Task Force) consisted of five carriers, which
would understandably drain from ASW resources. The Ranger also barely
avoided a torpedo attack, which might have influenced some decisions.
The transport fleet off of Fedhala was protected, partially by a mine
field to the north. I don't have the destroyer screen handy, but it's
not to say that the U-boat captains weren't any good. On November 11th
one destroyer was hit as well as two transports (one sunk) and on the
next night struck three transports were struck by U-130. However U-173
was destroyed in the same area on the 16th, so it's not like there wasn't
any ASW protection. It was just exceptionally good luck and piloting by
2 U-boats.
--
Alan Dunkin (dunk...@utdallas.edu) Warbirds (Black Sheep squadron): -avd
Executive Editor News/Strategy, Online Gaming Review (http://www.ogr.com)
Contributing Writer, Dallas Morning News
"This isn't rocket science, this is brain surgery!" -- The Simpsons
Fubar2X
wrol...@nmsu.edu (W. ROLLINS) writes:
>When my Dad went to England during the pre D-Day invasion buildup he rode
>the Queen Mary and they went at high speed without escort on the theory
>that no uboat could keep up and the chances of one being in the right
>place was slim.
Ditto. My dad sailed from New York on the Queen Mary on July 1, 1944,
with the entire 80th Infantry Division onboard. The artillery battalion
he was in crossed the English Channel on LST's 372 and 515 and landed on
Utah Beach on August 6, 1944, exactly two months after D-Day.
I suspect they felt a lot safer on the Queen Mary than on those LST's.
Fubar2X
Eric Gross
I'm going to have dig through my books, but I believe one or two US transports
were sunk by U-boats during the Torch operation in November of 1942.
Karsten Paczkowski
On 21 Sep 96 henry wrote to
"did any US Troop ships ever get sunk in WW2 ???" the following lines:
hj> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
hj> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
hj> happening
Taken from my book of statistics:
Ships destroyed by the German navy, subs only, in 1939-1945
[...]
landing crafts - 13 sunk (reported 3 by the German navy)
[...]
Of course it's not quite that what you wanted, I guess you referred to the
pure troop transports that often haven been liners before.
I've got no detailed information about that, but I assume there were
sinkings. Later in the war, troop transports were running in convoys, too.
In the same book is a short list of sinkings by German subs that made lots
of trouble in the international press. Unfortunately I have nothing but
the names of these ships, maybe someone can give further information.
The ships names are:
- Laconia
- Papalemos
- Pandias
- Manaar
- Noreen Mary
- Marina
- Monte Gorbea
- Athenia
- Peleus
- Antonico
- Akensite
- Blairlotie
- City of Benares
- Fanadheat
- C.S. Flight
- Kalchas
- Robin Moor
Best regards,
Karsten
--
"Nothing is easier than being busy -
and nothing more difficult than being effective..."
(R. Alec Mackenzie)
>>> PGP-KEY available on request <<<
Fubar2X
fub...@aol.com (Fubar2X) wrote :
>On Feb 3 1943 the SS DORCHESTER was sunk by a U-Boat off Greenland and
>went down with 605 soldiers and crewmen. 4 chaplains gave their life
>jackets to other soldiers and went down with the ship.
The Dorchester was in convoy SG-19, with just two other cargo ships and
three Coast Guard cutters as escorts. The Dorchester was taking Army
reinforcements to Greenland when she was torpedoed by U-223. 299 of the
904 men on board survived.
>On Nov 26 1943 the SS ROHNA was sunk by a German guided bomb in the
>Mediterranean and went down with 1015 US troops, more men than were lost
>in the sinking of the INDIANAPOLIS.
The Rohna was in convoy KMF.26, and was sunk off the coast of Algeria by a
Hs293 glide bomb launched from a He-177. A reference of doubtful
authenticity notes, "Nov. 26, Mediterranean Sea, SS Rohna - 1015 US troops
are killed aboard this British troopship when it is hit by a German guided
missile."
>On Dec 25 1944 the LEOPOLDVILLE was sunk by a U-Boat in the English
>Channel and went down with 762 men, most of them from the 66th Infantry
>Division. The total casualties suffered by the 66th ID in the ETO were
>just 800 killed and 636 wounded; it was the only US division to have more
>men killed than wounded, thanks to the LEOPOLDVILLE.
The Leopoldville was a Belgian liner, and was sunk by U-486 despite five
escorts. The total loss of life on the Leopoldville was apparently 815,
of whom 762 were American. Sources differ on whether she went down on the
24th or 25th; it may just be a time zone thing, or maybe she was torpedoed
on the night of the 24th and sank in the early morning of the 25th.
Fubar2X
space for rent
When the Japanese were about to lose the Phillipenes they packed
pow's onto freighters to ship to Japan. Many of these ships were
bombed and strafed by American planes who did not know what they
were carrying. They were packed into holds unable to move and a lot died.
I remember the Smothers Brothers. Remember the old "Mother liked you
best?" Dick said Tommy was closer to their mother. The reason was
their father was one of those prisoners. He died on the dock in Tokyo
after coming off one of those hell holes. The war was over very shortly
and it had a big effect on Tommy. Dick was too young to remember.
On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, henry jakala wrote:
> Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
>
>
>
> just wondering
>
> considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
> heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
> guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
>
> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
> happening
funkraum
>el...@WPI.EDU (Andrew Toppan) wrote:
[...]
>Based on the dates/places of these losses, I would surmise that
>these ships were being used to transport troops into active combat
>areas, rather than the trans-Atlantic shuttle the really big
>ships were used for.
>
Churchill commented in 'The Second World War' that initially the
large liners (Queen Mary at al) were loaded with no more than
there were lifeboats for but later in the war they were run packed
to the gills.
If I remember correctly, some could steam faster than destroyer
escorts and in speed they found a modicum of safety.
Andrew Toppan
funkraum reshaped the electrons to say:
> If I remember correctly, some could steam faster than destroyer
> escorts and in speed they found a modicum of safety.
It would be a darned slow liner that _couldn't_ outrun a destroyer
escort (20-25 knot max speed).
Fubar2X
fub...@aol.com (Fubar2X) wrote:
>The Rohna was in convoy KMF.26, and was sunk off the coast of Algeria by
a
>Hs293 glide bomb launched from a He-177. A reference of doubtful
>authenticity notes, "Nov. 26, Mediterranean Sea, SS Rohna - 1015 US
troops
>are killed aboard this British troopship when it is hit by a German
guided
>missile."
According to the on-line bookstore amazon.com, there is in fact a new
Naval Institute Press book coming out on Dec 1 1996 called "Forgotten
Tragedy: The Sinking of Hmt Rohna", by Carlton Jackson, ISBN 1557504024.
Fubar2X
John Smit
>In the same book is a short list of sinkings by German subs that made lots
>of trouble in the international press. Unfortunately I have nothing but
>the names of these ships, maybe someone can give further information.
>The ships names are:
>- Laconia
Laconia - British - Passanger Liner - 12/09/42 - Sunk by 2
torpedo hits fired from the German Submarine U-156 500 miles south of
the bulge of Africa, Found to have 1,800 Italian prisioners and over
800 passangers and crew, 1091 survived after an international rescue
operation. (also had reference to 450 italian survivors out of 1800
and 1111 passangers/crew survived out of 2732)
>- Papalemos
>- Pandias
>- Manaar
>- Noreen Mary
>- Marina
Marina - British - Merchant Ship - 5088 tons - 17/09/40 - Sunk by
U-48 on her 8th patrol.
>- Monte Gorbea
>- Athenia
Athenia - British - Passanger Liner - 4/09/39 - Sunk when hit at 21:00
3/9/39, North West of Ireland by 1 torpedo fired from U-30 while bound
to New York from England, 112 die (28 US citizens), (The German
captain had disobeyed orders by not checking with Donitz before
attacking and was almost court martialled)
>- Peleus
Peleus - Merchant Ship - march 44 - Sunk by German submarine U852,
Survivors machine gunned (Only deliberate atrocity recorded against a
German U-Boat), 3 survivors
>- Antonico
>- Akensite
>- Blairlotie
>- City of Benares
City of Benares - British - Merchant Ship - 11081 tons - 17/09/40 -
Sunk by U-48 on her 8th patrol.
>- Fanadheat
>- C.S. Flight
>- Kalchas
>- Robin Moor
Robin Moor - Steamship - Sunk by German U-Boat
Hope these help. I only have a little information on some of these
sinkings.
Roger Eustis
pac...@private.westfalen.de (Karsten Paczkowski) wrote:
[Sabatier]
>In the same book is a short list of sinkings by German subs that made lots
>of trouble in the international press. Unfortunately I have nothing but
>the names of these ships, maybe someone can give further information.
>The ships names are:
[sad list swiped]
>- City of Benares
>Karsten
Karsten, the reason the sinking of the <<City of Benares >> made the
headlines is that she was full of children.
They were being evacuated to the << safety >> of Canada to escape from
bombing threat in London and other population centres.
In peace,
Roger
'Don't wait for your ship to come in - row out to meet it !'
n
(|:-} [ Helga ? When's the next boat to Vinland ?]
v
David Stevens
In article <52obp9$1...@nuntius.u-net.net>, ro...@aaee.u-net.com says...
>pac...@private.westfalen.de (Karsten Paczkowski) wrote:
[anything remotely to do with this thread snipped]
>
>
>Roger
>'Don't wait for your ship to come in - row out to meet it !'
>
> n
> (|:-} [ Helga ? When's the next boat to Vinland ?]
> v
Roger, where have you been? Welcome back, sir; the damned colonials have
been frisky of late and every good Englishman is needed.
David Stevens
Karsten Paczkowski
On 30 Sep 96 Roger wrote to
"Re: did any US Troop ships ever get sunk in WW2 ???" the following lines:
RE>Karsten, the reason the sinking of the <<City of Benares >> made the
RE>headlines is that she was full of children.
I did not know that. As I wrote, I have no further information about these
ships, their crew or passengers. All I knew was that they made big
headlines in the international press, therefore I guessed that there must
have been lots of passengers, maybe troops onboard.
Poor people...
RE>They were being evacuated to the << safety >> of Canada to escape from
RE>bombing threat in London and other population centres.
And just came upon a German sub...
Can anyone give further information about the sinking of the "City of
Benares" ?
Barry Williams
One Troopship that went down, that was realy big, with little loss of
life, was the President Coolidge, in Vanuatu. She was carrying, IIRC, a
Marine Brigade or close too, and hit a mine. The Captain beached the ship
bow in with most/all troops on board escaping with their lives but leaving
their equipment behind. On the outgoing tide the Cooldige moved out to
deeper water. She is today the largest diveable wreck in about 35 to 50+
metres, I think the stern is in about 65 metres. I have not dived her but
some of my friends have and there is a lot of WW2 gear still on her
including jeeps. Salvage is prohibited as the Coolidge is a mjor source
of tourist dollars for Vanuatu.
Regards
Barry
Barry Williams
> Ray Wilson reshaped the electrons to say:
> > National Geographic printed some wonderful pictures taken inside a US
> > troopship that is lying on the bottom of some lagoon in the Pacific.
> > Can't remember the reason for the sinking. Mine?
>
> She blundered into a "friendly" minefield.
>
> --
> Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- el...@neunet.com
> Rail, Sea and Air InfoPages -- http://www.wpi.edu/~elmer/
> If Yoda so strong in force is, why words in right order he cannot put?
The President Coolidge, in Vanuatu, a great dive, some of my buddies have
done it, one has an underwater video of it, including swimming in the
swimming pool at 55+ metres.
Regards,
Barry
Colin Duell
> Can anyone give further information about the sinking of the "City of
> Benares" ?
She was an Ellerman liner and was torpedoed and sunk on the night
of 17 September 1940 while carrying 90 children to Canada to escape
the bombing in the U.K. The weather was bad and many of the boats
were swamped. Only thirteen children together with six more travelling
privately were rescued. 248 of the ship's company of 406 were drowned.
Forty-six survivors, including six children, drifted in an open boat
for eight days before a Sunderland flying-boat saw them and guided
a destroyer to their rescue.
One of the youngsters, Kenneth Sparks, was the first to see the
flying-boat. He said that they shouted and then prayed. He also
mentioned that they had to be lifted up the steps of the warship
as none of them could walk.
A week or so after the sinking the British government decided to
stop sending children to Canada.
The City of Benares (11 081 tons) was launched or completed in 1936.
Colin Duell
Karsten Paczkowski
On 29 Sep 96 John wrote to
"Re: did any US Troop ships ever get sunk in WW2 ???" the following lines:
JS>Laconia - British - Passanger Liner - 12/09/42 - Sunk by 2
JS>torpedo hits fired from the German Submarine U-156 500 miles south of
JS>the bulge of Africa, Found to have 1,800 Italian prisioners and over
JS>800 passangers and crew, 1091 survived after an international rescue
JS>operation. (also had reference to 450 italian survivors out of 1800
JS>and 1111 passangers/crew survived out of 2732)
Some words should be added:
At 6 o'clcok in the morning, it's December 13th, 1942, commander
Hartenstein of U 156 broadcasted on the international 600 m wave the
following text:
"CQ-CQ-CQ. If any ship will assist the shipwrecked Laconia crew, I will
not attack her, providing I am not being attacked by ship or airforce. I
picked up 193 men. 4°53' South, 11°26' West. German Submarine."
September 14th, 1942: Hartenstein estimates the number of survivors to be
about 1,500 men.
abr...@rt66.com
Has anyone here beta tested harpoon online (HOL) from kesmai?
How accurate do you folks think harpoon is in simulation of naval
conflict. I think it presents a nice demonstration of different
platforms strengths and weaknesses. Some of the arguments that take
place here can be illustrated in harpoon.
Anyway, I really just want more people to beta test against, and some
smart opinions on the game in general.
Beware the humans you may play against are much smarter than the
computer you might be used to.
The site to find HOL is http://freeplay.kesmai.com
thanx BBoy
vawoo...@gmail.com
john Szalay
news:8af5cd2b-c9c9-4634...@googlegroups.com:
Women In Life Boats
Surviving British soldiers & crewmen fr. troopship which was torpedoed,
standing on the deck of a rescue destroyer after they were picked up from
life boats near the coast of N. Africa.
Date taken: February 1943
Photographer: Margaret Bourke-White
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/72f9da531339af35.html
LIFE magazine article link
http://tinyurl.com/lvz9zm8
or
https://books.google.com/books?id=gU8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA49
&dq=Women+In+Lifeboats&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFsObsy-
rTAhVBzIMKHUt_ANQQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=Women%20In%20Lifeboats&f=false
Jonathan
TIGER—The E-Boat Attack
Six Quartermaster units sustain losses due to enemy action
during training for the D-Day Invasion
Webmaster's Note: Operation TIGER was held 22-30 April 1944, at Slapton
Sands, England. It was the major training dress rehearsal
for the 4th Infantry Division's assault at Utah Beach, Normandy,
France on D-Day, 6 June 1944.
In the early morning hours of 28 April 1944, eight Landing Ship
Tanks (LSTs) were in Lyme Bay, heading towards Slapton Sands,
with the assault's follow on force of combat service support
soldiers. The losses sustained during this exercise were a
closely held secret until the end of D-Day invasion to keep
the Germans from learning about allied invasion plans.
The 3206th Quartermaster Service Company sustained the heaviest
losses of any unit the night of 27-28 April 1944. According
to the historian Charles MacDonald, in an article written
for the June 1988 Army magazine, "When the waters of the
English Channel at last ceased to wash bloated bodies ashore,
the toll of the dead and missing stood at 198 sailors and
551 soldiers, a total of 749, the most costly training
incident involving U.S. forces during World War II."
During the buildup phase of TIGER, eight LSTs (Landing Ship, Tank)
in a convoy were caught by German E-boats which torpedoed and
sank two, causing a loss of life greater than that later
suffered by the assault troops during initial attack on Utah Beach.
The final account of this incident must take into account naval
records not available in the European Theater, but Army
records indicate that the following took place.
read more here
http://www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/d-day/tiger.htm
SS Paul Hamilton
From Wikipedia,
The SS Paul Hamilton (Hull Number 227) was a Liberty ship built
in the United States during World War II. She was named after
Paul Hamilton, the third United States Secretary of the Navy.
On her fifth voyage [1] the SS Paul Hamilton left Hampton
Roads, Virginia on 2 April 1944 as part of convoy UGS 38,
carrying supplies and the ground personnel of the 485th
Bombardment Group of the United States Army Air Forces to Italy.
On the evening of 20 April it was attacked 30 miles (48 km)
in the Mediterranean Sea off the coast of Cape Bengut near
Algiers by 23 German Ju 88 bombers of III./Kampfgeschwader 26,
I. and III./Kampfgeschwader 77.[2] One aerial torpedo struck
the Paul Hamilton and detonated the cargo of high explosives
and bombs, and the ship and crew disappeared within 30 seconds. [3]
The crew and passengers, who included 154 officers and men
of the 831st Bombardment Squadron and 317 officers and men
of the 32nd Photo Reconnaissance Squadron, were all lost.
Of the 580 men aboard only one body was recovered.
Picture of the explosion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Paul_Hamilton#/media/File:SS_Paul_Hamilton_destroyed_20_Apr_1944.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Paul_Hamilton
>
>
bannon...@gmail.com
> just wondering
>
> considering that they were packed to the gills - it would be a
> heck of a way to go - no chance of anyone getting out alive i'd
> guess - packed like sardines and going to the bottom
>
> i'd imagine that troop ship convoys were very heavily protected
> by anti-submarine forces to prevent anything like that from
> happening
>
> must have been psychological hell for those stuck below decks
> knowing that the minute the ship takes a hit everyone would be
> good as dead - how many troops to a ship on average ? gear
> included or was that all on another ship ?
>
>
> what about enemy troop ships ? any reported sinkings ?
bannon...@gmail.com
bannon...@gmail.com
a425couple
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMT_Rohna
"("HMT" stands for His Majesty's Transport.) Rohna was sunk in
the Mediterranean in November 1943 by a Henschel Hs 293 guided
glide bomb launched by a Luftwaffe aircraft. More than 1,100
people were killed, most of whom were US troops.
1,138 men were killed, including 1,015 US personnel. The attack
is the largest loss of US troops at sea due to enemy action in a
single incident. A further 35 US troops of the 2,000 originally
embarked later died of wounds. As well as the troops, five of
Rohna's officers and 117 of her 195 crew were killed, along with
one of her 12 DEMS gunners and one hospital orderly. USS Pioneer
rescued 606 survivors.[10]
Details of the loss were revealed slowly over time. By February 1944
the US Government had acknowledged that more than 1,000 soldiers
had been lost in the sinking of an unnamed troopship in European
waters, but it hinted that a submarine was responsible. By June 1945
the US Government had released accurate casualty figures, the ship
had been identified as Rohna, and the cause of the sinking had
been identified as German bombers, but did not mention the fact
that a guided bomb was used. In 1948 a history of British India Line
in the Second World War was published, stating "the missile was one
of the new glider bombs guided by wireless".[11] The US Government
released the full story only in 1967 after the passing of the Freedom
of Information Act.
Wolffan
(in article<687640dd-b9e0-44ff...@googlegroups.com>):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bismarck_Sea
jonathan
The disaster that may have saved D-Day
SLAPTON SANDS, England — Lured across the English Channel by an
unexpected frenzy of radio chatter, the Nazi predators sliced through
the waves toward an unknown enemy.
It was shortly after midnight on April 28, 1944. Within a matter of
2-1/2 hours, an ambush by a German E-boat flotilla had brought misery to
hundreds of American families.
A secret dress rehearsal for D-Day had been interrupted with deadly
consequences.
Nicknamed "Long Slow Targets" by their crews, the U.S. landing craft
proved to be no match for the 50-mph German torpedo boats. The
hit-and-run attack left two American vessels ablaze and sinking. A third
had been struck in the stern and was badly damaged.
As hundreds of American servicemen floundered amid the burning oil and
cold water off England's southern coast, futile cries of "help" and
"mom" echoed across the darkness. At least 749 U.S. sailors and soldiers
would be dead by dawn.
Code-named Exercise Tiger, the ill-fated D-Day dry run was at the time
America's costliest incident of the war (only Pearl Harbor was worse).
The attack claimed more than three times as many lives as the amphibious
landing at Utah Beach in France, the assault they had been practicing
for at Slapton Sands in picturesque Devon county.
But now, 65 years after the disaster was hushed-up by military chiefs,
historians believe lessons learned from the little-known tragedy helped
to ensure the success of the D-Day landings less than six weeks later.
"These people were training for a military operation in the midst of a
war," said Dr. Harry Bennett, a World War II expert based at Britain's
University of Plymouth. "Without Exercise Tiger, the liberation of
Normandy, France and Europe might have been a more protracted and bloody
process."
Haunted by carnage
For the servicemen who made it back to shore, such sentiments don't make
the horrors they witnessed any easier to bear.
Many survivors say it isn't memories of Utah or Omaha beaches that haunt
them decades later. It's the carnage of the pre-invasion practice gone
wrong that live on in their nightmares.
Steve Sadlon, who was a radio operator aboard the first landing craft
struck by the German E-boats that night, recalls being awakened by the
"scraping" sound of a torpedo that failed to detonate. Moments later, an
explosion ripped through LST 507, which was fully loaded with trucks,
military equipment and soldiers. (LST is an acronym for Landing Ship, Tank.)
"It was an inferno," said Sadlon, speaking from his home in Ilion in
upstate New York. "The fire was circling the ship. It was terrible.
"Guys were burning to death and screaming. Even to this day I remember
it. Every time I go to bed, it pops into my head. I can't forget it."
Sadlon, who was aged 20 at the time, retrieved his pistol and a
floatation belt before leaping into the frigid English Channel.
"Guys were grabbing hold of us and we had to fight them off," he
recalled. "Guys were screaming, 'Help, help, help' and then you wouldn't
hear their voices anymore."
Tracers light the sky
Paul Gerolstein, then a gunner's mate 2nd class, recalls a fireball
rising "60 or 70 feet in the air" after Sadlon's LST was struck by the
second torpedo.
"Our radar gave us the German positions and we started to return fire,"
said Gerolstein, an 88-year-old retired police lieutenant who now lives
in Port Charlotte, Fla. "I vividly remember the German tracers were
light green while our tracers were red.
"The convoy was given orders to scatter and the battle was over before
we knew it.
"But my captain, John Doyle, decided to stay. 'We came here to fight the
Germans and we will stay here and fight,' he ordered. We went back and
threw cargo nets over the side and picked up 70 or 80 survivors."
Gerolstein recalls working with a "strong as a bull" colleague named
Gerhard Jensen to pull seven or eight wounded servicemen to safety.
This Sherman tank, which was recovered from the sea about a mile off
Slapton Sands, England, serves as a memorial to the U.S. servicemen
killed while preparing for D-Day
.
Sadlon ended up spending about four hours in the frigid English Channel
before he was finally hauled aboard an American landing craft.
Unconscious and suffering from hypothermia, he was initially mistaken
for dead.
But, like many Exercise Tiger survivors, he would participate in the
D-Day landings just 40 days later.
"In comparison to the E-boat attack, Utah Beach was a walk in the park,"
Sadlon said.
D-Day nearly scrapped
The deadly ambush left Allied commanders rattled. Ten U.S. officers with
detailed knowledge of the looming Normandy invasion were missing and the
possibility that any of them been taken prisoner on the German E-boats
was a major concern. Scrapping "Operation Overlord," the name given to
the D-Day landings, was discussed at the highest levels.
But the emergency ended when all ten bodies were eventually recovered.
The German crews had no idea they had stumbled upon a secret test run
for the Normandy invasion.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30977039/ns/world_news-d_day_65_years_later/t/disaster-may-have-saved-d-day/
--
Marland
>
> A close second, over 700 lost, is recounted here.
>
>
> The disaster that may have saved D-Day
>
>
> SLAPTON SANDS, England — Lured across the English Channel by an
> unexpected frenzy of radio chatter, the Nazi predators sliced through
> the waves toward an unknown enemy.
>
>
> consequences.
>
>
> America's costliest incident of the war (only Pearl Harbor was worse).
> The attack claimed more than three times as many lives as the amphibious
> landing at Utah Beach in France, the assault they had been practicing
> for at Slapton Sands in picturesque Devon county.
>
> But now, 65 years after the disaster was hushed-up by military chiefs,
> historians believe lessons learned from the little-known tragedy helped
> to ensure the success of the D-Day landings less than six weeks later.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Slapton Sands, England, serves as a memorial to the U.S. servicemen
> killed while preparing for D-Day
> .
determined that the incident should be properly remembered is a little lost
in that long article.
He has passed over himself now but his Son keeps the memories alive.
http://www.exercisetigermemorial.co.uk/ken-small
GH
jonathan
kind of determination.
s
> GH
>
>
>
--