Midshipman Terminology
Matt Hickman
Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term 'Midshipman' the
only proper one to use?
Thanks.
Matt Hickman bh...@chevron.com TANSTAAFL!
OS/2 Systems Specialist, Chevron Information Technologies Co.
He was not really aware of the implications of order and efficient
preparation; it did impress him as "style."
Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
_Space Cadet_ c. 1948
Phil Toth
rrs...@ibm.net (Matt Hickman) wrote:
>Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
>could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term 'Midshipman' the
>only proper one to use?
Matt,
As a career Bos'n Mate, I've had to train more than a few Midshipmen.
I referred to them by many names (none of which are acceptable in
public discussion) but never as Cadets.
Phil Toth BMC(SW)
Hampton, Virginia
Byron Bond
Matt Hickman wrote:
>
In the US Navy, "Midshipman" is a bona fide rank, falling between
Warrant officer 2 and Warrant officer 3 in strict precendence (not that
any Middie in his or her right mind would debate rank with a WO, but in
case of formal occasions or strict rank requirements, that's where it
fits). Someone once told me that in the US Army, the Cadet, as used by
West Pointers, is NOT strictly a rank...but that could have been one of
those inter-service things!
I cannot speak as to when 'naval cadet' is appropriate, but I would say
that as a generic term it would probably not be unreasonable...though I
cannot think of a circumstance where Midshipman would not be MORE
correct, at least for the old Blue and Gold fleet.
Byron
Once a Midshipman, but never a cadet ;>)
> Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
> could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term 'Midshipman' the
> only proper one to use?
>
BlackBeard
In article <326BA9...@Pfizer.com>, Byron Bond <Bo...@Pfizer.com> wrote:
> Matt Hickman wrote:
> >
> In the US Navy, "Midshipman" is a bona fide rank, falling between
> Warrant officer 2 and Warrant officer 3 in strict precendence (not that
> any Middie in his or her right mind would debate rank with a WO, but in
> case of formal occasions or strict rank requirements, that's where it
> fits).
hmmm.... I've got to question this. Mainly because it is quite opposite
my experience. First:
A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
It was clearly stated during the first Mid'n cruise I participated in
that the middies were to be treated respectfully (get me the serial # on
that water slug SIR ;) and addressed as sir, but that they could not issue
lawful orders and were not commisioned yet.
Was this in error?
EMWK
BlackBeard
-. .- -..- --.-
De Profundis
Submarines once, Submarines twice...
JC54B0000-FarleighSE(DR9818)226
From article <326BA9...@Pfizer.com>, by Byron Bond <Bo...@Pfizer.com>:
> Matt Hickman wrote:
>>
> In the US Navy, "Midshipman" is a bona fide rank, falling between
> Warrant officer 2 and Warrant officer 3 in strict precendence (not that
> any Middie in his or her right mind would debate rank with a WO, but in
> case of formal occasions or strict rank requirements, that's where it
> West Pointers, is NOT strictly a rank...but that could have been one of
> those inter-service things!
>
> I cannot speak as to when 'naval cadet' is appropriate, but I would say
> that as a generic term it would probably not be unreasonable...though I
> cannot think of a circumstance where Midshipman would not be MORE
> correct, at least for the old Blue and Gold fleet.
>
> Byron
> Once a Midshipman, but never a cadet ;>)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
>> could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term 'Midshipman' the
>> only proper one to use?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Matt Hickman bh...@chevron.com TANSTAAFL!
>> OS/2 Systems Specialist, Chevron Information Technologies Co.
>> He was not really aware of the implications of order and efficient
>> preparation; it did impress him as "style."
>> Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
>> _Space Cadet_ c. 1948
>>
Naval Cadet's are High School kiddies that are playing sailor. Naval Cadets are
sponsered by the U.S. Navy and at least back in 1974 a Naval Cadet could enlist
at the rate of E-3. I guess it was an At-A-Boy for being a pre-pubescent Lifer.
Naval Cadet is NOT to be confused with Sea Explorer which is a division of the
Boy Scouts.
Scott E. Farleigh (formerly PR-2 and Sea Explorer :-))
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parachute Riggers bury their mistakes.
Martin Sinclair
In article <this-2110961152520001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>,
th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says...
>
> A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
>midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
>saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
>
> <snip>
>
AFAIK, here's how it works. Originally, the term "officer" was merely
someone who held office - ie officer of the law, officer of the court,
etc.
The Monarch granted a commission to some of those who were "officers"
of the armed forces. The rank structure evolved underneath this -
previous threads have mentioned the origin of the term "private soldier"
These days, officers are commissioned into HM Armed Forces - they
receive a commissioning scroll, signed by the Monarch.
Warrant Officers hold a warrant, not a commission (in the sense of
"I've a warrant to search / arrest"). They receive Warrants, and
these are signed by HM Secretary of State for Defence.
Non-commissioned officers are exactly that. However, in HM Forces,
Warrant Officers called by that name are found in Army and RAF only;
they are Senior NCOs, and there is no direct route to that rank
(unlike the US?). I don't know whether RN CPOs receive a warrant.
Equivalent rank FAQs abound.
Impenetrable British rank structure story : some regiments refer
don't have sergeants, they have serjeants. Certain cavalry regiments
heard that the word "sergeant" came from a root meaning "slave", and
replaced Sergeant & Sergeant-Major, with Corporal of the Horse and
Corporal Major. (Hence Squadron Corporal-Major).
Test question : Why does a Lieutenant-General rank higher than a
Major-General ? (shades of the Rear / Vice Admiral thread here).
I've heard two versions :
A - it's really Lieutenant-Colonel-General, not Lieutenant-General
B - it's really Sergeant-Major-General, not Major-General.
Martin
Confused ? Try to tell a Lance-Sergeant from a Sergeant .......
Peter H. Granzeau
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:52:52 -0700, th...@reader.makes.me.doThis
(BlackBeard) wrote:
>> In the US Navy, "Midshipman" is a bona fide rank, falling between
>> Warrant officer 2 and Warrant officer 3 in strict precendence (not that
>> any Middie in his or her right mind would debate rank with a WO, but in
>> case of formal occasions or strict rank requirements, that's where it
>> fits).
>
>hmmm.... I've got to question this. Mainly because it is quite opposite
>my experience. First:
>
> A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
>midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
>saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
>
> It was clearly stated during the first Mid'n cruise I participated in
>that the middies were to be treated respectfully (get me the serial # on
>that water slug SIR ;) and addressed as sir, but that they could not issue
>lawful orders and were not commisioned yet.
>
>Was this in error?
Midshipmen at one time (1960) ranked between W-1 Warrant Officers and
W-2 Commissioned Warrant Officers. There were certain technicalities
in the details of uniform which made the difference evident (the width
of the gold chin strap on the service cap, for instance-- 1/4" for
W-1, 3/8" for Midshipmen, and 1/2" for all other officers). I
understand there is no W-1 grade in the USN any more, and I would
guess that midshipmen now rank below any officer in the USN.
The term "naval cadet" may apply to high school ROTC units (I don't
know).
Martin Sinclair
>In article <this-2110961152520001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>,
>th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says...
>
>midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
>saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
>
>
Aargh, cocked it up _again_ ! Apocryphal story time.
Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst :
Story 1 :
Warrant Officer instructor to cadet. "It's perfectly simple. You call
me Sir, and I call you Sir, but only one of us means it...."
Story 2 :
Warrant Officer instructor, on parade square, at top of voice,
"There's a piece of sh*t on the end of this pace stick !"
Officer cadet (probably Cavalry)
"Oh, not this end, Sarn-Major......"
Martin :-)
Martin Sinclair
In article <54gkmo$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>,
martin....@gecm.com@SMTP@GCSCHM says...
>
>In article <this-2110961152520001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>,
>th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says...
>
>>
>> A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
>>midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
>>saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
>>
>> <snip>
>>
Oops forgot the important bit - not too sure about the RN, but the Army
position goes; until commissioned, you hold the _appointment_ of Officer
Cadet, but the _rank_ of Private Soldier. Hence, no problem !
>
>Confused ? Try to tell a Lance-Sergeant from a Sergeant .......
>
Answer : You can tell by the cap-badge. Told you it was confusing.
Martin :-)
"Damn - I thought he was a bit old to be a 2Lt in the PT Corps"
William Hamblen
> Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
> could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term 'Midshipman
> the
> only proper one to use?
If you had asked the question around the turn of the century naval cadet
would have been ok. For a few years for reasons obscure to me
midshipmen were called naval cadets. Nowadays they're midshipmen. I
guess the women midshipmen are midshipmen, too. The young gentlemen are
midshipmen I suppose because in the sailing navy they were not yet
officers in the wardroom aft, but they're not enlisted men, who berth
forward.
... nfx v2.8 [C0000] This tagline is false.
BlackBeard
In article <54gkmo$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>,
martin....@gecm.com@SMTP@GCSCHM (Martin Sinclair) wrote:
> In article <this-2110961152520001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>,
> th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says...
>> AFAIK, here's how it works. Originally, the term "officer" was merely
> someone who held office - ie officer of the law, officer of the court,
> etc.
>
> The Monarch granted a commission to some of those who were "officers"
> of the armed forces. The rank structure evolved underneath this -
> previous threads have mentioned the origin of the term "private soldier"
>
> These days, officers are commissioned into HM Armed Forces - they
> receive a commissioning scroll, signed by the Monarch.
>
> Warrant Officers hold a warrant, not a commission (in the sense of
> "I've a warrant to search / arrest"). They receive Warrants, and
> these are signed by HM Secretary of State for Defence.
Ahhhh.. there's the rub..
I did not notice you were UK. In the USN, the Warrant *is* a commission.
And I still believe middies hold no real rank until graduation. Maybe
Jeff or one of the other zero's on here will correct/provide the right
info.
Bob & John McKellar
Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
There were certain technicalities
> in the details of uniform which made the difference evident (the width
> of the gold chin strap on the service cap, for instance-- 1/4" for
> W-1, 3/8" for Midshipmen, and 1/2" for all other officers).
Officer Candidates were actually E5's (OCUI-2), also with 1/4" chin
strap. Every now and then we would get a salute from a white hat who
didn't spot the difference. After the salute was returned and the
distance closed, you would hear "Shit!" from the real sailor, followed
by much grins and chuckles from the OC.
I always though the chin strap differences were too small to mean much,
until an incident after I left active duty and was teaching in college.
One of the NROTC middies walked into my class with a 1/2" chin strap on
his hat and I had a flashback and chewed his ass out. I don't know
which one of us was more surprised.
He later flunked my class, flunked out of NROTC, and came back in my
class the next year, wearing RADM stars on his civilian clothes!
Bob McKellar - Former Porkchop, Uncle Sam's Tin Can Navy
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
Matt Hickman (rrs...@ibm.net) wrote:
: Are there any circumstances when a Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy
: could be properly referred to as a 'naval cadet'? Or is the term
: 'Midshipman' the only proper one to use?
Humph.
'Kaydet' is only suitable for referring to inmates of the Hudson High School
or the Rocky Mountain Finishing School for Boys, or the ROTC units associated
with those services.
Howsomever, them Colorado busdrivers done good this past weekend, beating
Notre Dame (one week after the Midshipmen beat the busdrivers ;-) )
To be briefly serious, 'Midshipman' has been the only correct term for
some years, though when the Naval Academy was first established in 1845,
the victims were referred to as naval cadets.
And please, PLEASE, never call 'em 'middies.'
Jeff
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# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# BLD Quality Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
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Incoming fire has the right of way.
Murphy's Laws of Combat
Paul J. Adam
In article <54glgf$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>, martin....@gecm.com
writes
>Oops forgot the important bit - not too sure about the RN, but the Army
>position goes; until commissioned, you hold the _appointment_ of Officer
>Cadet, but the _rank_ of Private Soldier. Hence, no problem !
Been there. Done that. It sucks :)
You get called "sir" a lot by NCOs.
It's incredible how the word "sir" can carry such a freight of "what a
complete and total idiot I have been forced to address with respect..."
when a senior NCO really puts effort into it...
Sometimes you would rather be devoured alive by rabid hamsters than have
the RSM call you "sir" in that tone of voice again.
--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam pa...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+Midshipmen at one time (1960) ranked between W-1 Warrant Officers and
+W-2 Commissioned Warrant Officers. There were certain technicalities
+in the details of uniform which made the difference evident (the width
+of the gold chin strap on the service cap, for instance-- 1/4" for
+W-1, 3/8" for Midshipmen, and 1/2" for all other officers). I
+understand there is no W-1 grade in the USN any more, and I would
+guess that midshipmen now rank below any officer in the USN.
I think if you check, the midshipman actually falls in the gap between
warrant officer (W-4/W-5) and commision officers (O-1).
Nick
W.E. Nichols The difference between participation and commitment
w...@infi.net is illustrated at breakfast. The chicken participates.
The pig is committed.
Peter N. & Eleanor B. Randrup
BlackBeard wrote:
>
> In the USN, the Warrant *is* a commission.
> And I still believe middies hold no real rank until graduation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quoting from your Dad's _Bluejacket's Manual_ (1950), p.66:
_Midshipmen._ --
"Midshipmen in general are classified as officers of the line in a
qualified sense. Their uniforms are similar to those of officers
except that only very thin gold striping is worn, and gold anchor
pin-on devices are worn on each collar. There are two classes of
midshipmen:
_Naval Academy midshipmen attend the Naval Academy at Annapolis,
Maryland. They rank between commissioned warrant officers and warrant
officers.
_Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps (NROTC) midshipmen_ are college
students at certain selected schools who carry additional work in
naval subjects leading to commissions as ensigns in the Naval Reserve.
Their cap device is now the same as that of the Naval Academy
midshipmen. They rank after Naval Academy midshipmen.
_Naval aviation cadets._ --
Naval aviation cadets are a special class of enlisted personnel
enrolled as student aviators. Their uniforms are similar to
officers', but a gold anchor pin-on device is worn on the collars.
They rank between chief petty officers and warrant officers."
In the past, when money for the Navy was really tight, midshipmen
graduating from the Naval Academy gained a status of being Passed
Midshipmen. Thus there was another rank between Midshipman and Ensign.
Assigned to ships in the fleet, they received their ensign commission
after serving a year or two in this status.
Although I can't cite any source, the US Naval Academy and its
Midshipmen are more formally integrated into the Naval Service than is
the US Military Academy. As a result, we are having this discussion.
For as I understand it, the Cadets at West Point do not have rank
within the Army per se. And I've never heard anything about the Coast
Guard Academy, Merchant Marine Academy, and Air Force Academy in this
regard.
Peter DBF
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
th...@reader.makes.me.doThis (BlackBeard) wrote:
>
>
>
> I did not notice you were UK. In the USN, the Warrant *is* a commission.
> And I still believe middies hold no real rank until graduation. Maybe
> Jeff or one of the other zero's on here will correct/provide the right
> info.
>
Its a commission in the sense that it is an "order form the government"
however the US statutes clearly distinguish between commissioned officers
and warrant officers. I agree with you on Midshipmen.
vince
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
"Peter N. & Eleanor B. Randrup" <hard...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In the past, when money for the Navy was really tight, midshipmen
> graduating from the Naval Academy gained a status of being Passed
> Midshipmen. Thus there was another rank between Midshipman and Ensign.
> Assigned to ships in the fleet, they received their ensign commission
> after serving a year or two in this status.
>
I believe "passed midhipman" was a Royla navy term for Midshipmen
who had passed the lieutenant's exam, but for whom no current commission
was available.
> Although I can't cite any source, the US Naval Academy and its
> Midshipmen are more formally integrated into the Naval Service than is
> the US Military Academy. As a result, we are having this discussion.
> For as I understand it, the Cadets at West Point do not have rank
> within the Army per se.
From a statutory proint of view they are identical
in addition. All graduates of the serivce academies are entitled by law
to request that their commission be in another service.
And I've never heard anything about the Coast
> Guard Academy, Merchant Marine Academy, and Air Force Academy in this
> regard.
Students at the Merchant Marine Academy are midshipmen in the USNR
Vince
Steve Bartman
th...@reader.makes.me.doThis (BlackBeard) wrote:
>Ahhhh.. there's the rub..
>I did not notice you were UK. In the USN, the Warrant *is* a commission.
>And I still believe middies hold no real rank until graduation. Maybe
>Jeff or one of the other zero's on here will correct/provide the right
>info.
>BlackBeard
>-. .- -..- --.-
>De Profundis
>Submarines once, Submarines twice...
To further muddy the waters . . .
Understanding that midshipmen hold special historical significance
that OCSers do not, it struck me as unfair that those at OCS were
below Academy folks while in training. Consider:
1. OCs are all already college grads.
2. therefore older (and MUCH wiser <g>)
3. at the time (1980) about 1/3 prior enlisted, including at least one
E-7 I recall (Marine gunny, ex-Vietnam.)
4. 16 weeks from a commission rather than 4 years.
On the question of midshipman rank I have no idea, but perhaps one
could ask 'what paygrade?' instead. At OCS we were the rank of OCUI-2
(Officer Candidate Under Instruction-2. Don't ask me what a '1' was.)
We were specifically E-5s for pay, however. I recall that this led to
some heartburn for the former enlisteds, especially on allowances.
They may have kept the old paygrade, but I do remember a lot of
heartburn for some. As I recall, we were E-5s so our pay would be
roughly 1/2 of an O-1's. Is that true at the Academy? I thought they
got only a token stipend (about $200/month.)
As far as rank, we saluted EVERY officer first (including Warrants),
and most especially the 'Oysters', shake-an-bake staff officers who
lived across the parade ground at OIS (Officer Indoctrination School)
and got a uniform in the mail along with their commission. We could
give orders inside the OCS regiment, but I think any sailor would have
laughed if one of us had tried to anywhere else in Newport.
And, at the end, we got an official enlisted discharge certificate
(filled in as 'OCUI-2') on the morning we were sworn in as O-1s.
So, at the start, we took the same oath as a middie, got paid
differently (more), apparently had less 'rank', got commissioned
faster, but were discharged from enlisted ranks (without ever having
an enlistment contract--OCS you could quit and go home at any time)
before being commissioned.
Very strange this Navy.
Steve
Peter N. & Eleanor B. Randrup
Prof. Vincent Brannigan wrote:
>
> "Peter N. & Eleanor B. Randrup" <hard...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In the past, when money for the Navy was really tight, midshipmen
> > graduating from the Naval Academy gained a status of being Passed
> > Midshipmen. Thus there was another rank between Midshipman and Ensign.
> > Assigned to ships in the fleet, they received their ensign commission
> > after serving a year or two in this status.
> >
> I have found references to "junior ensigns" in the late 1880's
> I believe "passed midhipman" was a Royla navy term for Midshipmen
> who had passed the lieutenant's exam, but for whom no current commission
> was available.
Interesting, but in the USN. . . ."in 1862 Congress abolished the
rating of acting midshipman. This was caused by an agreement with the
Confederates which specified that a midshipmen had an exchange value
of seven ordinary seamen, but provided no exchange value for "acting
midshipmen on probation." The same act also eliminated the rank of
passed midshipman and created that of ensign, to which rank all
midshipmen were to be commissioned immediately upon graduation. The
Class of 1863 was the only Class to benefit from this change, since
the following year the Navy Department had the application of the law
modified to require graduates to serve at least one year as midshipmen
prior to being commissioned ensigns." (Capt. John E. LaCouture, USN
Ret'd. in Shipmate 4/95).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> > Although I can't cite any source, the US Naval Academy and its
> > Midshipmen are more formally integrated into the Naval Service than is
> > the US Military Academy. As a result, we are having this discussion.
> > For as I understand it, the Cadets at West Point do not have rank
> > within the Army per se.
>
> From a statutory proint of view they are identical
> in addition.
No question of equality concerning the difference has been made.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> All graduates of the serivce academies are entitled by law
> to request that their commission be in another service.
~~~~~~
No problem about that either.
~~~~~~
Peter H. Granzeau
On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:34:06 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
>I think if you check, the midshipman actually falls in the gap between
>warrant officer (W-4/W-5) and commision officers (O-1).
In 1960, they were as I said. Between W-1 and W-2. I got on out 6
January 1961, and what they have done since then, I don't know.
Peter H. Granzeau
I went through OCS in 1957-1958. At that time, most of us had the
rank OCSA (e.g., "Officer Candidate Seaman Apprentice"), and received
E-2 pay (something like $78.00 a month, as I remember). A few had
prior service, and got to use their previous rank (our student company
commander, for instance, was a former SK1, he was an OC1 while he was
in the school, and paid E-6 wages). We wore the standard enlisted
uniform, with a white "OC" on the left shoulder for the first 8 weeks,
and were then fitted out with a midshipman's uniform (also with a
white "OC" on the left shoulder, but no SA stripe on the sleeve) for
wear only on liberty. With the officer's raincoat, we were
indistinguishable from a midshipman, and did gather an occasional
salute. When we graduated, that uniform went with us (and we were
charged $89.00 against our uniform allowance of $300.00 for it). I
can remember getting the Ensign's stripes put on it in the last couple
of days before I graduated; with several hundred others trying to do
the same thing, it nearly didn't get done. I still have the DD 214
for the time I spent there.
Matt Clonfero
In message <54gkmo$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Martin Sinclair wrote:
> Non-commissioned officers are exactly that. However, in HM Forces,
> Warrant Officers called by that name are found in Army and RAF only;
> they are Senior NCOs, and there is no direct route to that rank
> (unlike the US?). I don't know whether RN CPOs receive a warrant.
> Equivalent rank FAQs abound.
Faux. Either that, or the RN Warrant Officers at work have designed
their own rank. They are the senior NCO rate in the RN, but as a
point of strangeness they are addressed as `sir' by the other enlisted
rates.
> Test question : Why does a Lieutenant-General rank higher than a
> Major-General ? (shades of the Rear / Vice Admiral thread here).
> I've heard two versions :
> A - it's really Lieutenant-Colonel-General, not Lieutenant-General
> B - it's really Sergeant-Major-General, not Major-General.
Easy. A Lieutenant-General is the Lieutenant to the General - i.e
he holds the post a lieutenant would to a captain - his second in
command.
Aetherem Vincere
Matt.
--
===============================================================================
Matt Clonfero (ma...@aetherem.demon.co.uk) | To err is human,
My employer & I have a deal - they don't | To forgive is not Air Force Policy.
speak for me, and I don't speak for them. | -- Anon, ETPS
horne_bill
In 1958, I obtained my commission through the NAVCAD (Naval Aviation
Cadet) program. (We had 1/4" chin straps.) In my first squadron, I
served with some Naval Academy graduates. One became a good friend, but
never got over his annoyance that I, as an Ensign with prior Naval
Reserve enlisted and NAVCAD time counting for longevity purposes, was
paid more money than he received as a Lt(jg) ring knocker. At that
time, Naval Academy time counted for naught as time in service or for
retirement calculations.
All this discussion about the relative ranks of someone that isn't even
in the service seems a bit strange. Have things changed for Midshipmen?
Are they actually in the Navy now?
Cheers,
Bill Horne
LCDR USN(Ret)
P.S. The NAVCAD program always was an expedient to fill needs of the
moment. I think it has been gone for twenty or thirty years.
Johan Broman
In the Canadian Navy, Naval Cadet is an actual rank, it is the equivalent
rank of the USN Midshipman. Technically a Naval Cadet can be called a
Midshipman but they are never referred as such.
Naval Cadets are not commissioned officers and to their chagrin are rated
lower than an ordinary seaman.
Naval Cadets get their commission and their promotion to Acting
Sub-Lieutenant (A/Slt)(same as an Ensign in USN) after basic part II if they
are a Direct Entry Officer (ie they have a degree), or after their third sea
phase if they do not have a degree.
Slt Johan Broman
jbr...@UoGuelph.CA
My words are my own and may not reflect those of the CF or the University
of Guelph.
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
: of the gold chin strap on the service cap, for instance-- 1/4" for
: W-1, 3/8" for Midshipmen, and 1/2" for all other officers). I
: understand there is no W-1 grade in the USN any more, and I would
: guess that midshipmen now rank below any officer in the USN.
I beg to differ, Peter... as I recall it:
Non-commissioned Warrant Officers have a black chinstrap and enlisted badge.
Commissioned WOs have an officer-width (1/2") gold chinstrap and enlisted
badge.
Mids have 3/8" gold chinstrap and fouled anchor badge (how approppriate!)
and rank below all commissioned officers.
Of course, my memory has been subjected to many beers over the years...
Jeff
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Rule number 8 of gunfights:
Never assume your opponent is out of ammo.
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
BlackBeard (th...@reader.makes.me.doThis) wrote:
: hmmm.... I've got to question this. Mainly because it is quite opposite
: my experience. First:
: A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
: midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
: saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
Oooo! Oooo! I remember now!
Warrants 3 and 4 are not commissioned, Warrants 1 and 2 are.
That's why the placement of mids between W2 and W3.
Damn memory.
Mumble grumble rassum frassum.
Jeff
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Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
: > Matt Hickman wrote:
: > In the US Navy, "Midshipman" is a bona fide rank, falling between
: > Warrant officer 2 and Warrant officer 3 in strict precendence (not that
: > any Middie in his or her right mind would debate rank with a WO, but in
: > case of formal occasions or strict rank requirements, that's where it
: > fits).
BlackBeard (th...@reader.makes.me.doThis) wrote:
: hmmm.... I've got to question this. Mainly because it is quite opposite
: my experience. First:
: A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
: midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
: saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
My experience mirors Matt's--I was a Mid from 77-81 and we were told the
tale exactly as he relates it. I, too, have problems with the strict
interpretations of that. Would, for example, a Midn 1/c be legally
obligated to assume command of a lifeboat in which there were any number
of NCOs and enlisted and a Warrant 2? I can't believe this is so.
As an aside, we were told in no uncertain terms what would happen to us if
we tried to use our authority in any other than strictly controlled training
evolutions. Not that most of us needed to be told...
: It was clearly stated during the first Mid'n cruise I participated in
: that the middies were to be treated respectfully (get me the serial # on
: that water slug SIR ;) and addressed as sir, but that they could not issue
: lawful orders and were not commisioned yet.
: Was this in error?
They are most certainly not commissioned. Yet it seems to me that a Mid
can issue lawful orders.
Hmmm. Lemme check with the son of a friend who's now incarcerated at USNA.
As an aside, our paygrade as Mids was O-1/2 (oh one-half). I'm not kidding.
Jeff
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Rules of a gunfight, number 22:
A hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .45.
Bob & John McKellar
Steve Bartman wrote:
>
Snopped a lot of generally accurate stuff...
> So, at the start, we took the same oath as a middie, got paid
> differently (more), apparently had less 'rank', got commissioned
> faster, but were discharged from enlisted ranks (without ever having
> an enlistment contract--OCS you could quit and go home at any time)
> before being commissioned.
When you talking about, son? During the draft years, at first, if you
washed out of OCS , you were sent to the fleet as a white hat, with a 2
year (like the draft) obligation. Supposedly, a few folks saw this as
an opportunity to avoid the army, and pay their debt to society in the
Navy instead. They signed up for OCS and then flunked out on purpose.
(This part may be legend).
When I went to OCS in '68, the procedure for washouts was to keep them
in the Navy for another month, cleaning heads and cutting grass, while
their draft board was notified. By the time they got home, there was a
green uniform hanging on the front door knob! Not many people washed
out during my tenure in Newport.
I am consistently amazed at how little the effects of the draft are
appreciated by those who, by virtue of gender or time of birth, did not
have to deal with it.
Bob McKellar - Former Porkchop, Uncle Sam's Tin Can Navy
Distinguished Naval Graduate <G> USNAVOCS Clas M6901
Matt Clonfero
In message <54gm1c$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Martin Sinclair wrote:
> Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst :
Dogshit City. A RN CPO is drilling a division of recruits. A Wren officer
walks past, and smiles at the recruits. They all smile back. CPO says
`With all due respect Ma'am, you've only got one cunt to deal with. I've
got all these.'
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:34:06 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
+
+>I think if you check, the midshipman actually falls in the gap between
+>warrant officer (W-4/W-5) and commision officers (O-1).
+
+In 1960, they were as I said. Between W-1 and W-2. I got on out 6
+January 1961, and what they have done since then, I don't know.
Okay, someone break out the UCMJ and lets get this thing settled.
W.E. Nichols
"Prof. Vincent Brannigan" <vb...@umail.umd.edu> wrote:
+t...@reader.makes.me.doThis (BlackBeard) wrote:
+>
+> I did not notice you were UK. In the USN, the Warrant *is* a commission.
+> And I still believe middies hold no real rank until graduation. Maybe
+> Jeff or one of the other zero's on here will correct/provide the right
+> info.+>
+
+Its a commission in the sense that it is an "order form the government"
+however the US statutes clearly distinguish between commissioned officers
+and warrant officers. I agree with you on Midshipmen.
Let's see if I can get in trouble here. The distinction btwn commssioned
officers and commissioned warrant officers is that the commission was signed
by the President. The warrant officer commission was signed by SecNav.
Patrick Pemberton
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, W.E. Nichols wrote:
> Let's see if I can get in trouble here. The distinction btwn commssioned
> officers and commissioned warrant officers is that the commission was signed
> by the President. The warrant officer commission was signed by SecNav.
That can't be it; my grandfather's Warrant commission and his officer's
commission were both signed by SecNav (for some reason he likes that the
latter wasn't sighned by that President). Of course, this was a while ago
and he was a temporary, which may or may not have anything to do with it.
Anyone else?
Steve Bartman
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
>I went through OCS in 1957-1958.
Man, ROCKS aren't that old! <g>
At that time, most of us had the
>rank OCSA (e.g., "Officer Candidate Seaman Apprentice"), and received
>E-2 pay (something like $78.00 a month, as I remember).
Ah, perhaps we see the vestigal origins of my OCUI-2 here. $78 sounds
right. My dad was an E-6 about this time and I think he was pulling
about $210/month. Those good old draftee days. An aside-- he told me
that in the 1950s (maybe just in the K. War zone, don't know) they
used to get paid in $2 bills. That was the way the Treasury injected
them into the economy.
A few had
>prior service, and got to use their previous rank (our student company
>commander, for instance, was a former SK1, he was an OC1 while he was
>in the school, and paid E-6 wages).
The rank point was not true by my day. I think priors kept their old
paygrade. The issue was COMRATS and BAQ stopped (I think) for the
married guys.
We wore the standard enlisted
>uniform, with a white "OC" on the left shoulder for the first 8 weeks,
>and were then fitted out with a midshipman's uniform (also with a
>white "OC" on the left shoulder, but no SA stripe on the sleeve) for
>wear only on liberty.
In those days, if you washed out, you went to the Fleet, true? By 1980
you went home, so they issued (sold) us regular officer uniforms up
front (wash khakis, working blues, dress blues/whites sans
stripes--same as NROTC or Academy, but a different stripe system. We
wore one fouled anchor on khakis and blues (collar point) and when you
went past half-way (8 weeks) you shifted it to the other side. The OC
'officers' wore that multi-bar system the Academy uses, but we only
went through regiment, not all the way to brigade like they do (what's
Brigade CO--five bars? Six? Looks dumb, and how can you count fast
enough to salute?)
With the officer's raincoat, we were
>indistinguishable from a midshipman, and did gather an occasional
>salute. When we graduated, that uniform went with us (and we were
>charged $89.00 against our uniform allowance of $300.00 for it).
I think the allowance might have still been $300! I left Newport
having spent over $1500 on uniforms.
I can remember getting the Ensign's stripes put on it in the last
couple
>of days before I graduated; with several hundred others trying to do
>the same thing, it nearly didn't get done. I still have the DD 214
>for the time I spent there.
There were two good 'in-town' naval tailors that did much better work
and offered more quality than the NEX. They also delivered to the
back-door of the barracks 24 hrs. a day. I remember needing a new pair
of blue trousers as I was to be cadre for the incoming class behind
ours. We'd been in khakis up until then and I'd lost 45 pounds since
initial fit-out. I tried on the blues, pulled them up from my ankles,
ran to the payphone and had a new pair--cuffed even--by midnight, and
a new appreciation for planning ahead.
So many memories.
Steve
Martin Sinclair
In article <19961022....@aetherem.demon.co.uk>, ma...@aetherem.demon.co.uk
says...
>Faux. Either that, or the RN Warrant Officers at work have designed
>their own rank. They are the senior NCO rate in the RN, but as a
>point of strangeness they are addressed as `sir' by the other enlisted
>rates.
>
AAckk. (Hangs head in true shame, embarrassment, etc)
As said to me before, it's not often I'm right, but I'm wrong again....
Almost all of my experience is Army, but I design radars for the RN.
I know, it's an explanation, not an excuse. Do I have to clean the
heads out for a week, or something ?
Sergeant-Majors in the Army are also addressed as "sir" in the same
situation.
>> Test question : Why does a Lieutenant-General rank higher than a
>> Major-General ? (shades of the Rear / Vice Admiral thread here).
>> I've heard two versions :
>> A - it's really Lieutenant-Colonel-General, not Lieutenant-General
>> B - it's really Sergeant-Major-General, not Major-General.
>
>Easy. A Lieutenant-General is the Lieutenant to the General - i.e
>he holds the post a lieutenant would to a captain - his second in
>command.
>
So where does Major-General come into it ? Is B) true ?
Martin
A note to those on the left-hand side of the pond :-)
We only salute commissioned officers over here.
We only salute them with our hats on (I assume RN also?).
It's pronounced "Lef-tenant"
Jeremy Westhead
In article <54gkmo$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>, Martin Sinclair
<martin....@gecm.com@SMTP@GCSCHM> wrote: >In article
<this-2110961152520001@edward_teach.chinalake.navy.mil>,
>th...@reader.makes.me.doThis says... [snip] >Non-commissioned officers are
exactly that. However, in HM Forces, >Warrant Officers called by that name
are found in Army and RAF only; >they are Senior NCOs, and there is no
direct route to that rank >(unlike the US?). I don't know whether RN CPOs
>Confused ? Try to tell a Lance-Sergeant from a Sergeant ....... > Right
here goes, what used to be called a Fleet Chief Petty Officer is now
called a warrant officer, addressed as Mr Smith. They may not technically
outrank a midshipman, however you try telling that to any of the current
crop at Dartmouth - they live in fear of a lovely man called Mr Scarrot, a
warrant officer, who is in charge of ceremonial training...He can spin
more dits than I've had hot dinners, ie what he doesn't know about the
Navy isn't worth knowing. In the Army the Warrant officers have two grades
WO1 and WO2. The WO1 is the rank given to Regimental Sergeant Majors and
the like, and the WO2 is the rank given to Company Sergeant Majors and the
like. My grandfather was an RSM in the army and would have been most
upset if anybody lower than a major had told him what to do...The prospect
of a second lieutenant or Cadet telling him what to do would have, quite
literally, resulted in something very ugly...limbs on the floor, head in
the next room etc...Of course in family life he was the most doting and
wonderful man. You have to bear in mind the fact the the chances of a WO
making comissioned officer are very slim (if not non existent), therefore
they tend to be *very* experienced at what they do and for example Mr
Scarrot(qv) has been in the navy for as long as our CO has been alive....
As for Lance Sergeant, though strictly not relevant here, these are what
everybody else knows as Corporals. Queen Victoria didn't like being
guarded by people without lots of stripes, so they made up the rank of
Lance sergeant, not as much pay as a sergeant, but membership of the
Sergeants mess etc- expensive job, but more kudos then being a corporal.
--
Yours
Jeremy [Jeremy....@Trin.ox.ac.uk]
Pissed as ever...
Peter H. Granzeau
>p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
>
>>I went through OCS in 1957-1958.
>
>Man, ROCKS aren't that old! <g>
Class 35, by the way. Until class 34, they had kept two classes on
board, one first half, one second half, and graduated a class every
two months. We arrived just after class 34 graduated, and were the
only class there. Since our 16 weeks extended through Christmas, and
they closed the school (and the barracks and the mess hall), we all
got two weeks' uncharged leave during Christmas.
> At that time, most of us had the
>>rank OCSA (e.g., "Officer Candidate Seaman Apprentice"), and received
>>E-2 pay (something like $78.00 a month, as I remember).
>
>Ah, perhaps we see the vestigal origins of my OCUI-2 here. $78 sounds
>right. My dad was an E-6 about this time and I think he was pulling
>about $210/month. Those good old draftee days. An aside-- he told me
>that in the 1950s (maybe just in the K. War zone, don't know) they
>used to get paid in $2 bills. That was the way the Treasury injected
>them into the economy.
We received our pay in the form of a Treasury check. Later on, I
remember watching payday aboard my ship. They always paid in the
fewest number of bills that would pay the amount; thus if you were to
get $163, you got 8 $20s, a $2, and a $1.
> A few had
>>prior service, and got to use their previous rank (our student company
>>commander, for instance, was a former SK1, he was an OC1 while he was
>>in the school, and paid E-6 wages).
>
>The rank point was not true by my day. I think priors kept their old
>paygrade. The issue was COMRATS and BAQ stopped (I think) for the
>married guys.
>
>We wore the standard enlisted
>>uniform, with a white "OC" on the left shoulder for the first 8 weeks,
>>and were then fitted out with a midshipman's uniform (also with a
>>white "OC" on the left shoulder, but no SA stripe on the sleeve) for
>>wear only on liberty.
>
>In those days, if you washed out, you went to the Fleet, true? By 1980
>you went home, so they issued (sold) us regular officer uniforms up
>front (wash khakis, working blues, dress blues/whites sans
>stripes--same as NROTC or Academy, but a different stripe system. We
>wore one fouled anchor on khakis and blues (collar point) and when you
>went past half-way (8 weeks) you shifted it to the other side. The OC
>'officers' wore that multi-bar system the Academy uses, but we only
>went through regiment, not all the way to brigade like they do (what's
>Brigade CO--five bars? Six? Looks dumb, and how can you count fast
>enough to salute?)
No bars or other signs of rank on the midshipman lookalike in 1958. I
believe we looked just like a plebe, except for that "OC" on the
shoulder.
We had two people in our company who did not graduate. One decided
after about 3 weeks he didn't like it, and was sent off to recruit
training someplace. The other had reached the point, with only a
couple of weeks to go, where he could not wash out, all he had to do
was live for two more weeks and he would graduate--and then the
doctors found a spot on his lungs in the pre-commissioning physical.
They moved him to the transient barracks, and put him to work in the
OCS office as a clerk while the case bounced back and forth between
the local medics and BuMed. It took them nearly 8 months to decide he
was all right. In the meantime, he had gotten himself promoted to
OCSN (and a small pay raise)--and when they told him that he could be
commissioned, he said, in effect, "lessee. If I take the commission,
I get to go to sea for three years more, right? But if I don't accept
it, I only have 13 months more to serve and I'm out." Guess which
choice he made!
> With the officer's raincoat, we were
>>indistinguishable from a midshipman, and did gather an occasional
>>salute. When we graduated, that uniform went with us (and we were
>>charged $89.00 against our uniform allowance of $300.00 for it).
>
>I think the allowance might have still been $300! I left Newport
>having spent over $1500 on uniforms.
I think I may have spent $600.00, maybe more. I used the NEX. Six
long sleeved white shirts, six short sleeved white shirts, six long
sleeved khaki shirts, six short sleeved khaki shirts, two dress blue
uniforms, two service dress khaki uniforms (with second pair of
trousers for each), one blue officer's raincoat, one blue rain cover
for cap, one khaki officer's raincoat, one khaki rain cover, four
pairs of washable khaki trousers, four service dress white uniforms, 6
pairs of white socks, 6 pairs of khaki socks, 6 pairs of black socks,
one pair of white shoes, 2 pair of brown shoes, 2 pair of black shoes,
two cap frames, one blue cap cover, two gabardine khaki cap covers,
four washable khaki cap covers, four white cap covers, four washable
khaki service caps, two black ties, one black belt, two khaki belts,
two white belts, two pair grey gloves (one heavy, one light), two
pairs white gloves, two boiled front dress shirts, two separate
collars for the dress shirts, one black bow tie for the dress shirts,
one mourning band, various hardware (two chin straps, several sets of
bars in two sizes for shoulder, collar and service cap, cap device for
service cap, two button sets for dress white uniforms, etc.), six tee
shirts, six undershorts...I don't know if that was the full kit or
not, but it filled a wooden box which was shipped via common carrier
to my first (and only) ship, and it took six weeks getting there, at
that.
> I can remember getting the Ensign's stripes put on it in the last couple
>>of days before I graduated; with several hundred others trying to do
>>the same thing, it nearly didn't get done. I still have the DD 214
>>for the time I spent there.
>There were two good 'in-town' naval tailors that did much better work
>and offered more quality than the NEX. They also delivered to the
>back-door of the barracks 24 hrs. a day. I remember needing a new pair
>of blue trousers as I was to be cadre for the incoming class behind
>ours. We'd been in khakis up until then and I'd lost 45 pounds since
>initial fit-out. I tried on the blues, pulled them up from my ankles,
>ran to the payphone and had a new pair--cuffed even--by midnight, and
>a new appreciation for planning ahead.
I had to lose weight while I was in OCS - I entered at about 205, and
was advised that I had to drop to 187 or less. I was having trouble,
but did it by getting the flu and not eating for about three days. I
was 185 the next time they weighed me, and I kept it off at least
until I graduated. But your weight loss was quite a bit more than I
was required to do!
>So many memories.
Indeed.
Peter H. Granzeau
On 22 Oct 1996 14:14:57 GMT, jc...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell (3U-post
R4);T/208-396-6525) wrote:
>: There were certain technicalities
>: in the details of uniform which made the difference evident (the width
>: of the gold chin strap on the service cap, for instance-- 1/4" for
>: W-1, 3/8" for Midshipmen, and 1/2" for all other officers). I
>: understand there is no W-1 grade in the USN any more, and I would
>: guess that midshipmen now rank below any officer in the USN.
>
>I beg to differ, Peter... as I recall it:
First, I wasn't telling you what it IS, I was telling you what it WAS
in 1958-1960.
>Non-commissioned Warrant Officers have a black chinstrap and enlisted badge.
No, those were CPOs.
W-1 Warrant Officers wore very different cap hardware in 1960--as I
said, the chin strap was 1/4" wide, and in addition, there was no
silver shield or eagle on the cap device, just the gold-colored
crossed anchors.
>Commissioned WOs have an officer-width (1/2") gold chinstrap and enlisted
>badge.
No enlisted badge, it was the same as an officer's cap. Crossed
anchors, silver colored shield and eagle.
>Mids have 3/8" gold chinstrap and fouled anchor badge (how approppriate!)
>and rank below all commissioned officers.
True.
>Of course, my memory has been subjected to many beers over the years...
We got a brand-new W-1 Boatswain aboard in 1959. He had been a Chief
Gunners' Mate during WW II, but had gotten out for about 9 months in
1945-1946, and reenlisted as a SN. In the time 1946-1958, he had made
it up to BM1, but discovered it was easier to get a warrant
appointment than to make BMC (which was a closed rate at the time).
Remembering him is one of the reasons I remember the details of W-1
uniform so well. Smart man (he had completed all of the
correspondence courses he was going to need all the way to LtCDR).
Tim McFeely
<wannabe ringknocker miscellania snipped>
>And please, PLEASE, never call 'em 'middies.'
Excepting when they are the middleman in an academy circle jerk (as
cited in NAVACINST 1101.2D).
>Jeff
>--
> #######################################################
> # #
> # Jeff Crowell | | #
> # jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
> # _________|__( )__|_________ #
> # BLD Quality Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
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> #######################################################
>Incoming fire has the right of way.
> Murphy's Laws of Combat
Happy to cite the full NAVACINST if you desire...
Scope's under...
Tim McFeely
ex-TM2(SS)...a dying breed
ad...@osfn.rhilinet.gov
W.E. Nichols
+BlackBeard (th...@reader.makes.me.doThis) wrote:
+: hmmm.... I've got to question this. Mainly because it is quite opposite
+: my experience. First:
+
+: A Warrant Officer is a commisioned rank (albeit a Warrant commision). A
+: midshipman does not receive his commision until graduation. So you're
+: saying an NCO could outrank a commisioned officer?
+
+Oooo! Oooo! I remember now!
+
+Warrants 3 and 4 are not commissioned, Warrants 1 and 2 are.
+
+That's why the placement of mids between W2 and W3.
I'm surprised at you, Jeff. W-2 thru W-5 are commissioned officers.
W.E. Nichols
Patrick Pemberton <patr...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
+
+
+On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, W.E. Nichols wrote:
+
+> Let's see if I can get in trouble here. The distinction btwn commssioned
+> officers and commissioned warrant officers is that the commission was signed
+> by the President. The warrant officer commission was signed by SecNav.
+
+That can't be it; my grandfather's Warrant commission and his officer's
+commission were both signed by SecNav (for some reason he likes that the
+latter wasn't sighned by that President). Of course, this was a while ago
+and he was a temporary, which may or may not have anything to do with it.
+Anyone else?
In doing a search, I came across something that will clarify my above
statement. Commissioned officers and commissioned warrant officers are
"appointed" by the President. Warrant officers are appointed by the
Secretary of the Navy.
Steve Bartman
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
>Class 35, by the way. Until class 34, they had kept two classes on
>board, one first half, one second half, and graduated a class every
>two months. We arrived just after class 34 graduated, and were the
>only class there. Since our 16 weeks extended through Christmas, and
>they closed the school (and the barracks and the mess hall), we all
>got two weeks' uncharged leave during Christmas.
That was a deal! We had two classes at all times. I started in July
1980 (pre-Reagan build-up) and graduated Nov. 7, just after the
election. Our classes were about 350 each, making the Friday
pass-in-review pretty impressive. One of my fondest memories of
Newport (intact after all these years): temp. on reporting--103
degrees. Temp. on leaving--17 degrees. <g>.
>No bars or other signs of rank on the midshipman lookalike in 1958. I
>believe we looked just like a plebe, except for that "OC" on the
>shoulder.
This may be (guessing) due to the influence of the draft. If you
didn't make OCS you were exposed. By 1980 everyone there was a
volunteer, and they tried pretty hard in the first two weeks to make
the fence-straddlers quit. Either way, up front you knew you were
going to be either an officer or a civilian.
>We had two people in our company who did not graduate. One decided
>after about 3 weeks he didn't like it, and was sent off to recruit
>training someplace. The other had reached the point, with only a
>couple of weeks to go, where he could not wash out, all he had to do
>was live for two more weeks and he would graduate--and then the
>doctors found a spot on his lungs in the pre-commissioning physical.
>They moved him to the transient barracks, and put him to work in the
>OCS office as a clerk while the case bounced back and forth between
>the local medics and BuMed. It took them nearly 8 months to decide he
>was all right. In the meantime, he had gotten himself promoted to
>OCSN (and a small pay raise)--and when they told him that he could be
>commissioned, he said, in effect, "lessee. If I take the commission,
>I get to go to sea for three years more, right? But if I don't accept
>it, I only have 13 months more to serve and I'm out." Guess which
>choice he made!
We lost at least 50, maybe more like 75. One problem was in 1980 the
first cold winds of the '81 recession were blowing. My roomie had a
Masters in microbiology, a wife, and an infant when his stipend was
eliminated. He had no business being in the Navy (completely wrong
temperment), but he had to feed his family. We had a mixed bunch: lots
of just-out college grads (like me), some divorced women, ex-enlisteds
from late Vietnam years who got degrees and were rotating back, the
last class of NESEPS (a great program IMO), and a good share of mama's
boys who thought it would be neat to drive a ship. Many of them lasted
days or hours. One (a no-shitter) pulled up in front of the QD in a
convertible with golf clubs in the back seat (2 hours.) Another (the
best story I think), flew into Providence, changed his mind at the
jetway, and wrote a note to the OCS CO on an air-sick bag saying he'd
made a terrible mistake. It was delivered by another guy who was on
the same plane; the skippee had returned home. They mailed him a
discharge.
In a volunteer Navy I'd have to agree this is the right way. No sense
wasting time and money on no-loads. The first week (CUMIN period for
Civilian Under Military Instruction) wasn't fun (no showers, lots of
PT, little sleep, indoc lectures, inspections, shots, saluting
practice, 'count-through-the-doors', close-order drill etc. Familiar
to anyone who's done any sort of basic training), but it did show the
doubters that there was more involved than a steady paycheck.
>I think I may have spent $600.00, maybe more. I used the NEX.
Inflation I guess. I used the NEX for everything but my dress blues
and a top notch hat frame (and my blue trousers <g>.)
Seabag snipped.
Yours was MUCH larger than what we got. Four SDW? Wow. We got one set,
and in six years I wore it twice (once to a wedding.) We had no
full-dress stuff, no gloves, fewer of everything (especially all those
shoes) and no wooden seachest. It all left in civilian suitcases and
one green seabag. (And those govt. lowest-bidder skivies were for
shit.)
>I had to lose weight while I was in OCS - I entered at about 205, and
>was advised that I had to drop to 187 or less. I was having trouble,
>but did it by getting the flu and not eating for about three days. I
>was 185 the next time they weighed me, and I kept it off at least
>until I graduated. But your weight loss was quite a bit more than I
>was required to do!
I went at 263 and graduated at 203. Ate one meal a day (lunch), no
gedunk, and ran at dinner time. At Supply Corps school I went back to
about 230 ($.25 beers). That first year my uniform bills were huge.
>>So many memories.
>Indeed.
Anyone out there been to OCS since it went to P-cola? (And got Marine
DIs?) Love to hear some stories.
Steve
Matt Clonfero
In message <54lhet$c...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Martin Sinclair wrote:
> AAckk. (Hangs head in true shame, embarrassment, etc)
> As said to me before, it's not often I'm right, but I'm wrong again....
> Almost all of my experience is Army, but I design radars for the RN.
> I know, it's an explanation, not an excuse. Do I have to clean the
> heads out for a week, or something ?
Naval radars? The SMN USTAFISH may have a billet for you. Erm, Nick,
XO, Sir, do we need another greenie?
> >> B - it's really Sergeant-Major-General, not Major-General.
> >
> >Easy. A Lieutenant-General is the Lieutenant to the General - i.e
> >he holds the post a lieutenant would to a captain - his second in
> >command.
> So where does Major-General come into it ?
If I could remember that part, I'd sound that little bit smarter. Sadly,...
> Is B) true ?
I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
Steve Bartman
Bob & John McKellar <c...@sava.gulfnet.com> wrote:
>When you talking about, son? During the draft years, at first, if you
>washed out of OCS , you were sent to the fleet as a white hat, with a 2
>year (like the draft) obligation.
Note my dates--no draft. This made it either easier or harder
depending on your motivations. You had to want to stay.
>When I went to OCS in '68, the procedure for washouts was to keep them
>in the Navy for another month, cleaning heads and cutting grass, while
>their draft board was notified. By the time they got home, there was a
>green uniform hanging on the front door knob! Not many people washed
>out during my tenure in Newport.
We washed out about 25%. I don't have figures, but at least half that
never 'really' reported (lots of people collapsed into one-man rooms
the first week) and the rest were total academic failures (celestial
nav was a big crippler of young adults.) There were academic review
boards and roll-backs, but some people just didn't have it and were
chucked. Perhaps the recuiters weren't doing the job, but that's
always been a problem when there are quotas.
>I am consistently amazed at how little the effects of the draft are
>appreciated by those who, by virtue of gender or time of birth, did not
>have to deal with it.
Agreed. I missed it, but I was a Navy brat. The quality of many
draftees was a topic of dinner conversation at out house (dad was an
LDO.) My uncle had a clear shot into the FBM force but got lazy,
missed a dental appointment, and ended up running a printing press in
the Canal Zone. Better than the alternative in 1967 though.
Steve
Peter H. Granzeau
>>>So many memories.
>
>>Indeed.
>
>Anyone out there been to OCS since it went to P-cola? (And got Marine
>DIs?) Love to hear some stories
One final comment: The CPO in charge of our company was Scales, BMC.
I never did learn his first name or initials, but when the first
appointments were made to E-8 and E-9 a year or so later, Scales was
one of the four first BMCM appointments, making him one of the four
senior POs in the Navy at that time.
Mark Borgerson
> Steve
I went through Newport OCS in 1970/71. (favorite phrase: When the wind
blows, Newport sucks). We were mostly draftee-escapees. (You got a draft
notice right after college graduation). I had already avoided the draft
by enlisting and becoming a CT. After a year in Morocco, I got out of the
crummy barracks by volunteering for OCS. (Had been refused right out of
college!). Good evals and fairly rapid advancement (E5 before 2 years
active) got me in.
OCS was milder than boot camp in many ways--except that the boot DI (a EMCS
in my case) was replace by an OC with about 12 weeks service. The practice
of having the senior students drill and supervise the newbies may work OK
Annapolis, but it was often a disaster at OCS. PT was tougher at OCS, though.
As other posters have mentioned, academics were a differentiator at OCS--in
particular the piloting and celestial NAV courses hit heavily on the OCs with
little math background. (In all fairness it was a pain for me--a chem undergrad,
but with two years of French language school and translating in the immediate
past).
All-in-all, I was comfortable in OCS, though-- I was pre-designated for Nav Sec Gru--
due to inadequate vision for unrestricted line. And I got Rated as CTI2 the week
I entered OCS. At least if I dropped out, I didn't get reduced to SN and sent to
the fleet! Plus, after January 71, I was over 2 active and got a significant pay
raise! Actually bought a car at OCS (a 71 Chevy Vega) at OCS! Navy Federal
Credit Union actually thought OCs were a good risk--at least after the 12th week.
Mark Borgerson
Peter H. Granzeau
>Bob & John McKellar <c...@sava.gulfnet.com> wrote:
>
>>When you talking about, son? During the draft years, at first, if you
>>washed out of OCS , you were sent to the fleet as a white hat, with a 2
>>year (like the draft) obligation.
>
>Note my dates--no draft. This made it either easier or harder
>depending on your motivations. You had to want to stay.
In 1957, I had a draft obligation, but it was a peacetime draft.
Normally, they didn't call you until you were about 21 or so (true of
me). I had spent two years in USAFROTC in college, but dropped out,
and went back from 1-D to 1-A, but they didn't get around to getting
me in for a physical until January 1957. I was in my final semester
of college by that time. I really didn't want to go through Army
basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, and was already applying for Navy
OCS. I had some problem with color vision, had to make a special trip
to Great Lakes to take another color test, but they told me I would
have been accepted for intelligence if I didn't qualify for line. In
retrospect, I would have enjoyed the intel work (I worked for an intel
operation as a data processor for ten years, later on).
Bob & John McKellar
Steve Bartman wrote:
> That was a deal! We had two classes at all times. I started in July
> 1980 (pre-Reagan build-up) and graduated Nov. 7, just after the
> election. Our classes were about 350 each, making the Friday
> pass-in-review pretty impressive. One of my fondest memories of
> Newport (intact after all these years): temp. on reporting--103
> degrees. Temp. on leaving--17 degrees. <g>.
Reference date - July through November 1968:
Roger your last on the temperatures!
As I recall, probably incorrectly, the OCS Regiment had 4 battalions,
each with four companies, each company had four sections (classes) of
about 30 OC's each. We had pass in review on Saturdays, did they give
you young punks the weekends off? The impressive memory for me was
morning colors with more or less 2000 of us draft dodgers.
As a chop, Steve, you'll like this. When my class was the "senior"
class, it suddenly dawned on the line officers running the place that
90% of the OC officers, Regimental commander, company commanders, etc.
were either Supply Corps or CEC designees. In an early Navy "affirmative
action" policy to make up for the basically inferior nature of line
officers, certain OC positions were then reserved for line types.
Snipped some good stuff, the newsreader makes me!
>[There were] a good share of mama's
> boys who thought it would be neat to drive a ship. Many of them lasted
> days or hours. One (a no-shitter) pulled up in front of the QD in a
> convertible with golf clubs in the back seat (2 hours.) Another (the
> best story I think), flew into Providence, changed his mind at the
> jetway, and wrote a note to the OCS CO on an air-sick bag saying he'd
> made a terrible mistake. It was delivered by another guy who was on
> the same plane; the skippee had returned home. They mailed him a
> discharge.
These stories are simply unbelievable, fantastic and ludicrous in the
context of my 1968 experience. (Not to say they are untrue, but times
must have really changed when the draft died). I agree the NESEP
program was excellent. On my ship the crew knew we had young ensigns
and old ensigns. They didn't (sailorly expletive deleted) with the old
ensigns. But we young ones certainly learned from them.
Bob McKellar USNAVOCS M6901
John Eckhardt
W.E. Nichols <w...@infi.net> wrote in article
<327847ff...@news.norfolk.infi.net>...
> +Warrants 3 and 4 are not commissioned, Warrants 1 and 2 are.
> +
> +That's why the placement of mids between W2 and W3.
>
> I'm surprised at you, Jeff. W-2 thru W-5 are commissioned officers.
>
> Nick
Got to back up Nick on this one. There haven't been any W-1s in the USN
since the early 80s. W-2 and above are Commissioned Officers (Nick, does
the navy have any W-5s yet? I thought we had decided not to use that
paygrade. ) Navy CWOs wear the same uniform as other officers (except for
rank insignia) including hat devices. The special warrant hat device is
gone.
In the Early 90s, the Army decided to follow the Navy's lead and commission
its Warrants. (Last I heard, the USAF has no WOs).
Nick, maybe we should really confuse them and try to explain LDOs.
John Eckhardt.
Jack Love
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 23:58:39 GMT, p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
wrote:
Occasionally if the Navy was getting a hard time from the locals they
would pay the entire amount in $2s. My dad said it had a truly
salutory affect on community relations in Norman, Oklahoma....
now why DID the Navy have a training facility in Norman???
>>So many memories.
>
>Indeed.
Jeremy Westhead
In article <54lhet$c...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>,
Martin Sinclair <martin....@gecm.com@SMTP@GCSCHM> wrote:
[snip]
>
>A note to those on the left-hand side of the pond :-)
>
>We only salute commissioned officers over here.
>We only salute them with our hats on (I assume RN also?).
>It's pronounced "Lef-tenant"
>
Same in the RN, though of course we do it better, as in everything.
W.E. Nichols
ma...@aetherem.demon.co.uk (Matt Clonfero) wrote:
+In message <54lhet$c...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Martin Sinclair wrote:
+
+> AAckk. (Hangs head in true shame, embarrassment, etc)
+> As said to me before, it's not often I'm right, but I'm wrong again....
+> Almost all of my experience is Army, but I design radars for the RN.
+> I know, it's an explanation, not an excuse. Do I have to clean the
+> heads out for a week, or something ?
+
+Naval radars? The SMN USTAFISH may have a billet for you. Erm, Nick,
+XO, Sir, do we need another greenie?
You don't need to grovel. "You ask me regular." If he can also repair
multi-layer boards to the component level, check his references. If he
checks out okay, set him up with The Dragon Lady for a physical. The
Corpsman is over at the Victory attempting to keep the COB and Gun Boss from
bringing back "anything" to the boat.
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+One final comment: The CPO in charge of our company was Scales, BMC.
+I never did learn his first name or initials, but when the first
His first name was, Chief. Period. You didn't need to know anything else
about him.
Christopher Wiles
W.E. Nichols (w...@infi.net) wrote:
> jc...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525) wrote:
> +Warrants 3 and 4 are not commissioned, Warrants 1 and 2 are.
> +
> +That's why the placement of mids between W2 and W3.
>
> I'm surprised at you, Jeff. W-2 thru W-5 are commissioned officers.
Hmmm ... in today's Navy (well, the Navy of two years ago, at least), the
progession goes (from lowest-ranking to highest-ranking):
CWO2
CWO3
CWO4
... no CWO1, no CWO5 ... and they're all commissioned.
-- Chris (wil...@fsr.net) tactical sysadmin
http://www.fsr.net/staff/wileyc/ ICBM:46 43' 53" N 117 10' 43" W
Peter H. Granzeau
On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:43:21 +0000, Mark Borgerson <bor...@peak.org>
wrote:
>I went through Newport OCS in 1970/71. (favorite phrase: When the wind
>blows, Newport sucks).
I don't know about 1970, but in 1957, we were in old wooden open bay
barracks, right on the end of the point. The wind in December and
January started in Providence, came straight down the bay, and there
was nothing to stop it from coming straight through our
barracks--certainly not the windows across that end of the building!
David Stevens
In article <54lhet$c...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com>,
martin....@gecm.com@SMTP@GCSCHM says...
>In article <19961022....@aetherem.demon.co.uk>,
ma...@aetherem.demon.co.uk
>says...
>>
>>In message <54gkmo$9...@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Martin Sinclair wrote:
>>> Test question : Why does a Lieutenant-General rank higher than a
>>> Major-General ? (shades of the Rear / Vice Admiral thread here).
>>> I've heard two versions :
>>> A - it's really Lieutenant-Colonel-General, not Lieutenant-General
>>
>>Easy. A Lieutenant-General is the Lieutenant to the General - i.e
>>he holds the post a lieutenant would to a captain - his second in
>>command.
>>
>
>
>A note to those on the left-hand side of the pond :-)
>
>We only salute commissioned officers over here.
>We only salute them with our hats on (I assume RN also?).
>It's pronounced "Lef-tenant"
Firstly, Major Generals were indeed originally Sergeant-Major Generals. In a
17th Century army, say English Civil War, the General commanded the army, the
Lieutenant-General commanded the more glamorous sub-division, namely the
cavalry, and the Major General commanded the plodding infantry. Hence their
relative positions in the hierarchy. Oliver Cromwell, for example, was
Parliament's Lt Gen at the battle of Naseby; Sir Thomas Fairfax was the
General, and in overall command, as was King Charles on the other side.
Cromwell and Prince Rupert were the rival cavalry commanders/ Lt Gens.
Secondly, all three services are identical in saluting regulations (if not in
style of salute) - and no, never salute without a hat on. That is why the US
Presidents look so bloody daft to British eyes - they salute, but do not wear
uniform or even a hat.... The Queen, for example, returns salutes only when
in uniform and hatted; since she gave up riding a horse for Trooping the
Colour, you will note that she has given up wearing uniform, and has an
officer assigned to return salutes on her behalf.
All warrant officers, regardless of service, are entitled to be addressed as
Sir or Mr (Bloggs), but not to be saluted.
I shall dig out some stuff on the early origens of midshipmen over the
weekend. If memory serves correct, they were originally mature seamen not
dissimilar to senior petty officers or warrant officers, though presumably
not holding a particular post in the ship, unlike the latter (ie Gunner,
etc). Basically trusted men, unsuitable, because of class/education for the
Quarter Deck (= commission). Young midshipmen were effectively a misuse of
the system to get officers' young proteges to sea in a semi-respectable rank,
which later became approved and regulated. Soviet/Russian midshipmen
were/are closer to the original concept. But I will dig out some references
if I can.
David Stevens
Peter H. Granzeau
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:02:42 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
>+One final comment: The CPO in charge of our company was Scales, BMC.
>+I never did learn his first name or initials, but when the first
>
>His first name was, Chief. Period. You didn't need to know anything else
>about him.
For the dollar I gave him for my first salute, I should have his
name.
D.P. NUTTING
In <327bf2f0...@news.norfolk.infi.net> w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols)
>Now back to an original point of this discussion. I am not satisfied
with
>the answer of where exactly a midshipman falls in the rank structure.
>Someone quoted the BJM of 1950 as them falling in btwn enlisted and
>warrants. If someone will look in Navy Regs, I think you will find
they
>fall btwn warrants and O-1.
They fall between Warrant and Chief Warrant.....there is no Warrant
rank now that W-1 is gone so they fall between E-9 and CWO2.
Dwayne
W.E. Nichols
wil...@mikkabi.fsr.net (Christopher Wiles) wrote:
+W.E. Nichols (w...@infi.net) wrote:
+
+> jc...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525) wrote:
+
+> +Warrants 3 and 4 are not commissioned, Warrants 1 and 2 are.
+> +
+> +That's why the placement of mids between W2 and W3.
+>
+> I'm surprised at you, Jeff. W-2 thru W-5 are commissioned officers.
+
+Hmmm ... in today's Navy (well, the Navy of two years ago, at least), the
+progession goes (from lowest-ranking to highest-ranking):
+
+CWO2
+CWO3
+CWO4
+
+... no CWO1, no CWO5 ... and they're all commissioned.
A W-1 in not a commissioned officer. I think the Navy has a W-5 authorized.
Now back to an original point of this discussion. I am not satisfied with
the answer of where exactly a midshipman falls in the rank structure.
Someone quoted the BJM of 1950 as them falling in btwn enlisted and
warrants. If someone will look in Navy Regs, I think you will find they
fall btwn warrants and O-1.
Nick
D.P. NUTTING
In <32712d4e...@news.norfolk.infi.net> w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols)
writes:
>Let's see if I can get in trouble here. The distinction btwn
commssioned
>officers and commissioned warrant officers is that the commission was
signed
>by the President. The warrant officer commission was signed by
SecNav.
There is NO distinction between Commissioned Officers and
Commissioned (Chief) Warrant Officers; both are fully commissioned
Officers. The distinction was between WARRANT Officers and all the
others... A Warrant Officer (W-1) held a "Warrant" signed by the
Secretary of the Navy and WAS outranked by 1st class midshipmen
(Although long out of style, the rank of Midshipman was once thought of
as a "warrant" rank for the same reason.....no commission, just a
"warrant" signed by the SecNav.)
I recall the Summer after I got my Warrant, we had a Midshipman
Summer cruise group aboard from the Naval Academy and those who were
assigned to the engineering department kept calling me "sir"; I had to
finally correct them with: "...you don't call me "sir", I call YOU
"sir".......but your won't like it!"
Believe it or not, the Midshipman's chin strap was (and is) wider
than that of a "pin-stripe" Warrant.
Dwayne
D.P. NUTTING
In <01bbc201$8a17ec00$6958...@jeckhard.emanon.net> "John Eckhardt"
<jeck...@recom.com> writes:
>Nick, maybe we should really confuse them and try to explain LDOs.
What's to explain? It stands for Loud-Dumb-Obnoxious......
Dwayne
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+On Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:02:42 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
+
+>+One final comment: The CPO in charge of our company was Scales, BMC.
+>+I never did learn his first name or initials, but when the first
+>
+>His first name was, Chief. Period. You didn't need to know anything else
+>about him.
+
+For the dollar I gave him for my first salute, I should have his
+name.
Geez, cuz he got your dollar (better have been a silver dollar) you are not
entitled to anything else. You had his name, it was Chief.
The last silver dollar I received from a salute of this nature, was one of
the stupid assed Susan B. Anthony pieces of crap. I threw the damned thing
over the side.
W.E. Nichols
"John Eckhardt" <jeck...@recom.com> wrote:
+Nick, maybe we should really confuse them and try to explain LDOs.
Hell John, there is nothing to explain. Loud, Dumb and Obnoxious. That's
pretty straight forward and needs no explanation.
J.McEachen
Way back in 1960, NavCads ranked between E-7 (top enlisted) and W-1, a
warrant officer with a crossed anchor cap insignia. Midshipmen (and I
think there was a differentiation between NROTC, contract NROTC, and
USNA) ranked between W-1 and W-2 (W-2 to W-4 were commissioned warrant
officers). In 1961 Warrants were to be phased out in favor of LDO's.
I'll clue you, though, as a LTJG reporting aboard the Forrestal in 2/61
with a full boat (6,000 men) I was temporarily put in WO country and did
I tiptoe down there! There were no new Warrants then, just new LDO's,
but I guess the plan for attrition died and from what I hear here there
are still warrants in the Navy. The Army does it right: WO's are mainly
pilots without expectation of command. The Navy a few years ago
considered and rejected making a career path of pilots without command
possibility to get a full career out of an expensive commodity but
rejected it. But in the early 60's, the Navy was slated to go out of
the WO business by attrition.
Ray Pawley
W.E. Nichols wrote: (snip)
> A W-1 in not a commissioned officer. I think the Navy has a W-5 authorized.
Authorized, but not used. The Army and Marines are using it. Just heard of a USMC LDO
Major being promoted to W-5 vice O-5. Curious.
Ray Pawley
David Stevens
Right-oh then. I have just spent a pleasant couple of hours (extended
lunch-break) trawling through Queen's Regulations and Michael Lewis'
(and others') various books on the history of the RN and its personnel. I
also looked at such USN works as were immediately obvious in the Admiralty
Library.
Starting with the present-day situation in the RN. Queen's Regs are quite
clear - a Midshipman is an officer. The table of officer ranks shows them as
the most junior rank. Status as an officer is the important point - the
table merely indicates those ranks where a commission is granted with an
asterisk. The definitions of Command clearly place the responsibility for
command and discipline on officers, without exceptions, over ratings;
however, it notes that when detailing an officer to command in a certain
situation, consideration should be given to his suitability in terms of
training and experience. Also, the Mishipman is listed as equivalent (but
junior except when afloat) to the commissioned ranks of Second Lieutenant
(Army) and Pilot Officer (Royal Air Force). Even the most august of Warrant
Officers is listed as a rating, not an officer, and thus is theoretically
junior to a midshipman. Presumably, orders issued to Midshipmen by ratings
during training are regarded as empowered by Special Command, similar to that
granted to members of the Provost and Regulating Branches. As an aside, a
personal experience of mine when a Midshipman in the University unit was when
our training craft, HMS Hunter, was required to move at no notice by the
Harbour Master at St Helier in the Channel islands at 0200 - the ship's
captain - a Lt Cdr - was billeted ashore, as was normal, and was unable to
return to the ship in sufficient time. The First Lieutenant, a post held on
this class of training craft by a Seaman Chief Petty Officer, was aboard.
Under his guidance, we took the ship to sea (basically hung about outside the
breakwater until the Harbour Master had reorganised his life and his berths)
but whilst he would never normally hesitate to give me an order, and I would
certainly never hesitate to obey him, he insisted that I was nominally in
command of the vessel, as the senior Midshipman, should the incident ever
come to the attention of their Lordships - as a rating, not having been
explicitly authorised by the Captain, he had no right of Sea Command, even
though he had vastly more expertise than I did. We never explored the depths
of Regulations to prove him right, and the Captain fully endorsed our
actions, but I always thought his gut reaction an interesting one.
As for the historical side. The difference between Commissioned officers and
Warrant officers goes back to medieval and Tudor times. When a war fleet
consisted generally of merchant vessels chartered for the Crown's service, a
warrant issued by the Monarch or his appointed officers - what became the
Navy Board - was the normal means of marking a vessel's impressment for
military service. The vessel was assumed to be supplied by its owner with
the means of getting to and fro, ie including a sailing crew and the
necessary office-holders to navigate and control her. The holders of these
essential offices became known, as a result, as Warrant Officers. Their
alternate title for many years was Standing Officers, which marked the fact
that, in the sailing navy, they usually stayed with a ship, regardless of its
status of commission. These Warrant Officers comprised: Master, Boatswain,
Gunner, Carpenter and Cook (though the cook lost this status quite early on).
By contrast, the Captain was a military officer commanding the Monarch's
fighting men posted aboard the ship for the purposes of the planned naval
campaign, and he and his Lieutenant subsequently held commissions from the
Crown for the express purpose of bringing a ship into service for military
action. Thus the commission related to the authority to operate the vessel
as an agency of the Crown's military power, whilst the Warrant only covered
placing the vessel and essential crew at the Crown's disposal.
The earliest mention of Midshipman comes from court records of 1362, when one
was charged with murder. Midshipman was originally a rating, and did not
become a rank until 1815. The original midshipmen appear to have been a form
of petty officer, holding positions of responsibility amidships. Their
particular concern appears to have been during boarding actions, since they
were charged with the provision of boarding equipment and weapons, and were
detailed to be the first choice for command of any prizes taken. This form
of mature, experienced midshipman did not disappear from the RN till the
eraly days of steam. Nathanial Boteler was the first to suggest the need for
some form of officer-under-training rank, in 1634, and made it clear that
this could include actual command responsibilities when necessary - he
stipulated that the individuals concerned should be "Gentlemen who could
perform Quarterdeck duties". Boteler suggested converting the Ship's
Corporals to this purpose. The Commonwealth government under Cromwell picked
up on his idea and implemented it, but chose Midshipman as the rating to use.
Pepys further elaborated on this scheme under Charles II, and instituted the
requirement that any candidate for Lieutenant should have acquired sea
experience and served a minimum period as a Midshipman. Similarly,
candidates for Midshipman had to have a certain period of sea-time before
they could be rated as such.
Thus, pre-1815, Midshipmen were rated by Captains and Commanders as they saw
fit, with (perhaps) due regard to the requirement for a couple of years' sea
time. The Gunroom was not, originally, the home of the mids - they resided
in the dank hell of the After Cockpit on the Orlop deck, but was the nursery
where the Gunner looked after those Young Gentlemen doing their pre-Mid
qualifying sea-time: they might be rated as Captain's Servants, Seamen,
Volunteers or Boys at various periods. Some lads did go straight to sea as
Mids, but were either products of the Naval Academy, which was legit, or had
naval relatives who had cooked the books to ensure they had adequate sea-time
on their records. A Midshipman could transfer between ships, and not be
rated, at least at first, as a Mid in his new vessel - Nelson, I think, was
rated AB at one stage in between appointments as a Mid.
With regards to the USN at this period, the Navy Act of 1815 apparently
listed the officers of a ship by precedence as follows:
Captain or Commander; Lieutenants (by seniority); Master; Master's Mates;
Boatswain; Gunner; Carpenter; Midshipmen. Thus, the Midshipmen in the USN
are clearly in authority over petty officers and ratings, but junior to the
old Standing Officers. The inclusion of the Master's Mates, higher up the
scale, however, is interesting - certainly the RN at this time often rated
senior Mids with the necessary navigational and seamanship experience as
Master's Mates, and the rank eventually became that of Mate, between
Midshipman and Lieutenant, finally becoming the commissioned rank of
Sub-Lieutenant.
Enough for now
David Stevens
Steve Bartman
Bob & John McKellar <c...@sava.gulfnet.com> wrote:
>As I recall, probably incorrectly, the OCS Regiment had 4 battalions,
>each with four companies, each company had four sections (classes) of
>about 30 OC's each. We had pass in review on Saturdays, did they give
>you young punks the weekends off? The impressive memory for me was
>morning colors with more or less 2000 of us draft dodgers.
Four batts sounds right: two second half, two first half. Don't
remember companies, but I know we went at least up to Papa (I was
Alfa-had an early plane <g>.)
Another post mentioned old wooden barracks--perhaps you were still in
them in 1968. We were in a red brick barracks---big---four decks and
many wings. Laid out like a series of capital H's side-by-side.
Companies were across the arms of the H's, half on each side of the
'spine'. The central 'spine' had heads, storage, company officer
offices, sick bay, etc. Walking fire-and-security took about 30
minutes if you did it right. I think we were about 1200 tops, but I
recall empty P-ways on 4th deck. The Navy hit the gas (600-ship Navy
(tm)) right after my time so they could have put more in later
classes.
We passed-in-review Friday after classes. Then had libs from 1700 to
about 0200 Saturday (if you hadn't failed weekly graded personnel or
room inspection Friday AM.) We went to the old Datum JO club on base
(a LOT of fun, since torn down), or if somebody had a car, into
Newport. The America's Cup was that summer and old Ted Turner, who was
winning, kept the bars lively. Had to be back by 0200 and across the
quarterdeck. We used to flip to see who would have to do the 'talking
bullet." There were six ceremonial 5in shells with white lines ringing
the quarterdeck carpet. That meant that only six OCs could 'come home'
at a time, and there was a little speech one of you had to recite for
the group to the OC OOD standing there in SDBs holding the spyglass
(the commisioned CDO could be lurking too to keep you honest.) The six
marched in, very grave, and stood at attention at each 'bullet' while
the front, starboard side OC did the talking. You had to get the
patter EXACTLY right or the OOD sent you back to the curb, or end of
the line if close to 0200, to try again. If you were deeply in the bag
it could get pretty tense (also hilaroious if you were sober<g>.) Miss
0200, and it was demerits, which had to be marched off--walking tours
with the plastic drilling rifle on Saturday.
Saturday 0600--drop your c**cks and grab your socks!! It's Mandatory
Fun Time!! After breakfast we had six hours of team sports, by
company. Everybody had to do at least two. As I recall: water polo
(SEALS loved this <g>.), b-ball, volleyball, running races,
tug-of-war, swimming relays. This was very 'fun' if you'd been in the
last group across the talking bullet four hours previous. More than
one technocolor yawn was witnessed in the August heat.
Then lunch and libs until 1800 Sunday. Unless you failed the Friday
inspection (CDO reinspect and EMI, usually shining brass around the
barracks) or had demerits to march off, or were academically dink.
This allowed overnight trips to Boston, New York, or even Washington
(me, on Amtrak.) The married folks saw their spouses and kids if they
were stashed in Newport somewhere, or traveled. That's when you
realized how much you'd already changed versus civilians.
>[There were] a good share of mama's
>> boys who thought it would be neat to drive a ship. Many of them lasted
>> days or hours. One (a no-shitter) pulled up in front of the QD in a
>> convertible with golf clubs in the back seat (2 hours.) Another (the
>> best story I think), flew into Providence, changed his mind at the
>> jetway, and wrote a note to the OCS CO on an air-sick bag saying he'd
>> made a terrible mistake. It was delivered by another guy who was on
>> the same plane; the skippee had returned home. They mailed him a
>> discharge.
>These stories are simply unbelievable, fantastic and ludicrous in the
>context of my 1968 experience. (Not to say they are untrue, but times
>must have really changed when the draft died). I agree the NESEP
>program was excellent. On my ship the crew knew we had young ensigns
>and old ensigns. They didn't (sailorly expletive deleted) with the old
>ensigns. But we young ones certainly learned from them.
I watched the draft die as a dependant, and things certainly did
change (Zumwalt added to it.) Mutinies that went unpunished because
they were "racically sensitive" are something few people remember or
talk about now.
NESEPS. At one point on my SSBN the XO, Engineer, NAV, Weaps, and one
A-Weaps were Neseps. The NAV was a former E-7. They were excellent
officers, leavening us whippersnappers with the wisdom of years and
"been there" knowledge. Too bad the NAvy couldn't afford to continue
the program.
Steve Bartman
sbar...@ix.netcom.com
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
: W.E. Nichols <w...@infi.net> wrote:
: > I'm surprised at you, Jeff. W-2 thru W-5 are commissioned officers.
John Eckhardt (jeck...@recom.com) wrote:
: Got to back up Nick on this one. There haven't been any W-1s in the USN
: since the early 80s. W-2 and above are Commissioned Officers (Nick, does
: the navy have any W-5s yet?
Okay, okay, mea maxima culpa.
All I can say is it's all y'alls fault--I've been having to drink lots
of beer to make room for all the stuff I'm brewing in prep for the
maiden voyage of the USTAFISH, but it keeps on being postponed and you
don't expect me to just pour that nectar out, do ya?
Drowned brain cells plus ten years is taking its toll, my friends. The
embarassing thing is that one of my roomies in CHANDLER was a Warrant
Officer Gunner.
But I repeat the main point of my post: Mids are in the rank structure,
just below the commissioned WOs, and can give legal orders.
No, really. trust me.
Jeff
--
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# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
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Rule number 5 of gunfights:
Never turn your back on a Bad Guy, even if he's down.
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
W.E. Nichols (w...@infi.net) wrote:
: If he checks out okay, set him up with The Dragon Lady for a physical.
Ah yes, the physical.
Afterward, make sure to fill out the questionnaire. "Turn your head and
cough" and "Bend over and spread 'em" are currently running neck and neck
in popularity.
8-)
Jeff
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The only acceptable substitute for brains is silence.
Peter H. Granzeau
On Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:54:19 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
>Geez, cuz he got your dollar (better have been a silver dollar) you are not
>entitled to anything else. You had his name, it was Chief.
I won't accept your attitude on this. I know from BMCs, too many of
themn worked for me. To a man, they are lazy, shiftless, incompetent
place holders who sit in the chief's mess playing acey deucey and
don't do a goddamn thing to work the ship.
D.P. NUTTING
In <327a6538...@news-3.exis.net> p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
writes:
>I won't accept your attitude on this. I know from BMCs, too many of
>themn worked for me. To a man, they are lazy, shiftless, incompetent
>place holders who sit in the chief's mess playing acey deucey and
>don't do a goddamn thing to work the ship.
You are totally full of crap on this and I can't let this remark
pass unchallenged....I know for a FACT that very few BMC's are smart
enough to master the intricacies of acey-deucey...
BTW, which is it, did they work for you....or sit around the chiefs
mess?? Kind of a contradiction there.
Dwayne
D.P. NUTTING
In <3273B7...@mail.snet.net> "J.McEachen" <jm...@mail.snet.net>
writes:
> There were no new Warrants then, just new LDO's,
>but I guess the plan for attrition died and from what I hear here
there
>are still warrants in the Navy. The Army does it right: WO's are
mainly
>pilots without expectation of command. The Navy a few years ago
>considered and rejected making a career path of pilots without command
>possibility to get a full career out of an expensive commodity but
>rejected it. But in the early 60's, the Navy was slated to go out of
>the WO business by attrition.
The Navy brought back the Warrant program after 1966, the Navy
program is alive but the rank of Warrant is gone...or I should say that
the Paygrade of W-1 is gone. The Navy also brought out LDO Aviators in
the early 1980's...as far as I know that program is now dead also. I
remember in about 1961 or 62, the Navy offered all it's Warrants what
was called the "one shot" program....promotion to LDO LTJG in an effort
to thin the Warrant ranks faster.
Dwayne
BlackBeard
In article <5545ln$n...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, d...@ix.netcom.com(D.P.
NUTTING) wrote:
> In <327a6538...@news-3.exis.net> p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
> writes:
>
> You are totally full of crap on this and I can't let this remark
> pass unchallenged....I know for a FACT that very few BMC's are smart
> enough to master the intricacies of acey-deucey...
hehehe
>
> BTW, which is it, did they work for you....or sit around the chiefs
> mess?? Kind of a contradiction there.
>
> Dwayne
His job was to keep the Chiefs Mess full. ;)
(setting the drag)
BlackBeard
-. .- -..- --.-
De Profundis
Submarines once, Submarines twice...
Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525
David Stevens (david....@kcl.ac.uk) wrote:
: Secondly, all three services are identical in saluting regulations
: on. That is why the US Presidents look so bloody daft to British eyes -
: they salute, but do not wear uniform or even a hat...
Ah, but in the Colonies, the Air Farce and Army salute when uncovered (as
well as when covered).
Navy, Marines, and Coasties salute only when covered. Unless under arms,
they are uncovered indoors. This can lead to hard feelings at times.
Jeff
--
#######################################################
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# BLD Quality Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
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# O x x O #
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#######################################################
Thou hast not to like it--thou hast just to do it.
Demo Dick's 10 Commandments of SpecWar
W.E. Nichols
+David Stevens (david....@kcl.ac.uk) wrote:
+: Secondly, all three services are identical in saluting regulations
+: (if not in style of salute) - and no, never salute without a hat
+: on. That is why the US Presidents look so bloody daft to British eyes -
+: they salute, but do not wear uniform or even a hat...
+
+Ah, but in the Colonies, the Air Farce and Army salute when uncovered (as
+well as when covered).
+
+Navy, Marines, and Coasties salute only when covered. Unless under arms,
+they are uncovered indoors. This can lead to hard feelings at times.
There may be two situations where under arms you are not covered. I seem to
recall the cover must be removed in sick bay and maybe on the mess decks
during a meal.
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+On Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:54:19 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
+
+>Geez, cuz he got your dollar (better have been a silver dollar) you are not
+>entitled to anything else. You had his name, it was Chief.
+
+I won't accept your attitude on this. I know from BMCs, too many of
+themn worked for me. To a man, they are lazy, shiftless, incompetent
+place holders who sit in the chief's mess playing acey deucey and
+don't do a goddamn thing to work the ship.
Well, it could be, Peter, that you did not understand what the hell was
going on. I understand from you postings, you were a full fleet junior
officer at the time. I guess that make you some kind of authority on what
goes on, huh. Back in those days you didn't see the chief hanging around
the work site. That is what they had "Leading Seamen" for and Petty
Officers.
And if you want to travel a couple of miles and make the above comments, I
will convince you "up close and personal" that you are talking out of your
ass, cuz your mouth knows better.
LCDR1635
>There may be two situations where under arms you are not covered. I seem
to
>recall the cover must be removed in sick bay and maybe on the mess decks
>during a meal.
>Nick
IIRC, these situations are dictated by custom rather than regulation or
instruction.
John H. Eckhardt
It's not my spelling or grammer
that's so bad. It's my typing.
W.E. Nichols
lcdr...@aol.com (LCDR1635) wrote:
+>There may be two situations where under arms you are not covered. I seem
+to
+>recall the cover must be removed in sick bay and maybe on the mess decks
+>during a meal.
+
+>Nick
+
+IIRC, these situations are dictated by custom rather than regulation or
+instruction.
I have to say your are correct. It's difficult sometimes to separate regs
from customs.
Peter H. Granzeau
On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:00:06 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
>And if you want to travel a couple of miles and make the above comments, I
>will convince you "up close and personal" that you are talking out of your
>ass, cuz your mouth knows better.
I consider the above to be a threat.
Arved Sandstrom
I consider all of the above to be a joke. Nick couldn't punch you while
he's leaning from his cane.
If you consider the above to be a threat, how about this one routinely
uttered by NCOs and SNCOs?: "I'm going to rip your fucking head off and
shit down your throat".
If that's a bit much, well, don't join the military.
Call Public Legal Aid. They'll get you a lawyer.
--
Arved H. Sandstrom * YISDER
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia * ZOMENIMOR
(at least for now) * ORZIZZAZIZ
best email: asnd...@emerald.bio.dfo.ca * ZANZERIZ ORZIZ
Zhang Hongyu
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:00:06 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
+
+>And if you want to travel a couple of miles and make the above comments, I
+>will convince you "up close and personal" that you are talking out of your
+>ass, cuz your mouth knows better.
+
+I consider the above to be a threat.
Consider it what you want. However you owe an apology to all the
Boatswain's Mates. It is really a sad state of affairs when some Fucking
Full Fleet Ensign who served 30 some years ago, to call all Chief
Boatswain's Mates lazy and worthless. I won't call you what you are. It
might irritate you and then you would Super Glue your grandmothers ass to
the toilet seat as revenge. That's about how sick you are.
Martin Sinclair
In article <55c06q$r...@News.Dal.Ca>, ar...@cs.dal.ca says...
>
>If you consider the above to be a threat, how about this one routinely
>uttered by NCOs and SNCOs?: "I'm going to rip your fucking head off and
>shit down your throat".
>
Or even "I'm going to rip your arm off, and beat you with the soggy end".
Martin
LCDR1635
>If you consider the above to be a threat, how about this one routinely
>uttered by NCOs and SNCOs?: "I'm going to rip your fucking head off and
>shit down your throat".
The last time that one was used on me it was by our CHENG (O-5). I was an
O-3 at the time and he said it in front of the troops. Really
professional I thought (but then, he was a Nuke.)
Olin K. McDaniel
Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:34:06 GMT, w...@infi.net (W.E. Nichols) wrote:
>
> >I think if you check, the midshipman actually falls in the gap between
> >warrant officer (W-4/W-5) and commision officers (O-1).
>
> In 1960, they were as I said. Between W-1 and W-2. I got on out 6
> January 1961, and what they have done since then, I don't know.
I've been both amused and puzzled by these messages. So at the risk of
being an "old bore" I'll add my recollections.
From mid-1943 til early 1945 I was in the Navy V-12 program with the
rating of AS (apprentice seaman). We were paid $50 per month. In those
days that was the equivalent of E-1. Then we were appointed as Reserve
Midshipmen, and sent to various Midshipmen schools around the country, I
happened to get to go to the Naval Academy for my four months. After
one month there we received that appointment to Midshipmen, the first
month was probationary. During those final three months we received the
same pay as the Regular Midshipmen, $75 per month. As to where our rank
fit within the grand structure, I have NO idea any more.
Not much help, just a little history to add to the story.
Olin McDaniel
Arved Sandstrom
In article <32815397...@news.norfolk.infi.net> w...@infi.net writes:
>jc...@boi.hp.com (Jeff Crowell (3U-post R4);T/208-396-6525) wrote:
>
>+David Stevens (david....@kcl.ac.uk) wrote:
>+: Secondly, all three services are identical in saluting regulations
>+: (if not in style of salute) - and no, never salute without a hat
>+: on. That is why the US Presidents look so bloody daft to British eyes -
>+: they salute, but do not wear uniform or even a hat...
>+
>+Ah, but in the Colonies, the Air Farce and Army salute when uncovered (as
>+well as when covered).
>+
>+Navy, Marines, and Coasties salute only when covered. Unless under arms,
>+they are uncovered indoors. This can lead to hard feelings at times.
>
>recall the cover must be removed in sick bay and maybe on the mess decks
>
>Nick
>W.E. Nichols The difference between participation and commitment
>w...@infi.net is illustrated at breakfast. The chicken participates.
> The pig is committed.
Marines under arms may uncover in one situation, and one situation only.
Church services, such as a wedding. That is it. USN and USCG might be
different. One might wonder why one would *be* armed in church - we're
talking about NCO's and officers' dress swords.
Peter H. Granzeau
On Sun, 03 Nov 1996 11:30:21 -0500, "Olin K. McDaniel"
<omcd...@flosc.net> wrote:
>Incidentally, it would appear from this table,
>there was no higher enlisted grade than E-7 in those days. No E-8 nor
>E-9 shown.
Not until 1958 or 1959, when the two additional enlisted grades were
added to the structure. E-8s to be 1 and 1/2 per cent of the total
enlisted force, E-9s to be 1/2 of 1 per cent of the total.
It appeared that the addition of the two grades eventually did away
with W-1 in the USN, at least, and did away with warrant officer
altogether in the USAF (I have a sneaking feeling that the USAF has
more junior officer authorizations than the other services have, as
well, but no knowledge at all of the actual numbers). Sometimo or
other, the Army started using warrant grades for helocopter pilots and
various other kinds of specialists (the only ones I met were all
involved with intel in one way or another) of the kind who would not
expect to become part of the chain of command.
The USN use of warrants and LDO commissions, concurrently, seems odd,
and I never have really understood why both were necessary. At one
time, the supply department on my ship consisted of a LTJG LDO as
department head and a W-2 Supply Warrant. They had virtually
identical time in service and as an officer. The LDO was mad as a wet
hen about it, because he also had to act as disbursing officer (a
Warrant could not have custody of money, it seems--that had to be a
Commissioned Officer).
Patrick Pemberton
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Olin K. McDaniel wrote:
> I was surprised about a couple of other things it showed. First of all
> the Cadet at West Point does not fit in the structure at all. He was
> not even part of the Army!!!
Remember that MIDN before the Academy trained on ships underneath officers
and were "in" the Navy; AFAIK army cadets never went out in field with the
army.
> The other thing that surprised me was the Aviation Cadet did not fit in
> the same slot as the Midshipman. The AVCAD was below WO, just above CPO
> and Master Sergeant. Incidentally, it would appear from this table,
> there was no higher enlisted grade than E-7 in those days. No E-8 nor
> E-9 shown.
There wasn't an E-8 or E-9 until the last few decades.
D.P. NUTTING
In <Pine.SOL.3.95.961103...@piglet.cc.utexas.edu>
Patrick Pemberton <patr...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu> writes:
>> The other thing that surprised me was the Aviation Cadet did not fit
in
>> the same slot as the Midshipman. The AVCAD was below WO, just above
CPO
>> and Master Sergeant. Incidentally, it would appear from this table,
>> there was no higher enlisted grade than E-7 in those days. No E-8
nor
>> E-9 shown.
>
>There wasn't an E-8 or E-9 until the last few decades.
The AVCAD WASN'T a Midshipman and therefore did not fit the same
slot. The E-9/E-8 grades started in 1958.
Dwayne
W.E. Nichols
p...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
+On Sun, 03 Nov 1996 11:30:21 -0500, "Olin K. McDaniel"
+<omcd...@flosc.net> wrote:
+
+>Incidentally, it would appear from this table,
+>there was no higher enlisted grade than E-7 in those days. No E-8 nor
+>E-9 shown.
+
+Not until 1958 or 1959, when the two additional enlisted grades were
+added to the structure. E-8s to be 1 and 1/2 per cent of the total
+enlisted force, E-9s to be 1/2 of 1 per cent of the total.
I think if you check, you will find that for the Navy, the E-8s are 7% of
the enlisted force structure and 3% for E-9s.
Matt Hickman
In <327CC8...@flosc.net>, "Olin K. McDaniel" <omcd...@flosc.net> writes:
>
>Also, one correction. I stated our pay as midshipmen was $75 per month,
>that was wrong, it was $65 per month. Also, when we graduated our base
>pay as Ensigns went to $150 per month.
>
>Just trivia, hope no one objects.
I am curious if the pay for U.S. midshipmen, ensigns etc. changed with the
U.S. involvement in W.W.II, the great depression etc. Did it take an act
of Congress to change pay? If that is the case, I suspect that the pay was
fairly stable over the first half of the 20th century.
I also suspect that U.S. Naval pay during the first half of this century was
close to poverty level. And even officers' families often lived in a kind of
genteel poverty.
Matt Hickman bh...@chevron.com TANSTAAFL!
OS/2 Systems Specialist, Chevron Information Technologies Co.
Army paymasters come in only two sizes; one sort shows you where the
book says that you can't have what you have coming to you; the second
digs through the book until he finds a paragraph that lets you have
what you need, even if you don't rate it.
Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
_The Door Into Summer_ 1956
Patrick Pemberton
I don't recall (nor see myself) referring to AVCAD; my grandfather was a
MSGT before E-8/9's were introduced, and that was in the late sixties
IIRC.
<No Value Set: using "MICHELLE LEA JOHNSON">
Are there any navy wives or girlfriends out there? I would like to talk
to someone about the lofe of a navy wife.
\|||/
(o o)
-------oo0-(_)-0oo-------
Michelle Lea Johnson
Terry Stover
> >"I'm going to rip your fucking head off and
> >shit down your throat".
> The last time that one was used on me it was by our CHENG (O-5). I was an
> O-3 at the time and he said it in front of the troops. Really
> professional I thought (but then, he was a Nuke.)
When we were in nuke school, you could tell which ones were the skimmers. They were all
the assholes. I had one as a roommate, arrogant, cocky and not really all that smart. The
kind of people who would take notes on who left early from mandatory study hours. There
has to be something fundamentally wrong with a person who wants to be a skimmer nuke.
Peter Mackay
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961104...@mason2.gmu.edu>,
"<No Value Set: using \"MICHELLE LEA JOHNSON\">" <mjohnso3@osf1 wrote:
> Are there any navy wives or girlfriends out there? I would like to talk
> to someone about the lofe of a navy wife.
I was a navy wife for a while. We lived on base and as we drove out the
gate the guard would see the sticker and salute me. If my wife was beside
me she'd return the salute, but generally I'd just wiggle my fingers at the
poor bugger, being of ex-army extraction myself.
~ m
u U Cheers!
\|
|> -Peter Mackay
/ \ pete...@netinfo.com.au
_\ /_
W.E. Nichols
Terry Stover <tst...@amd.com> wrote:
+> >"I'm going to rip your fucking head off and
+> >shit down your throat".
+
+> The last time that one was used on me it was by our CHENG (O-5). I was an
+> O-3 at the time and he said it in front of the troops. Really
+> professional I thought (but then, he was a Nuke.)
+
+ When we were in nuke school, you could tell which ones were the skimmers. They were all
+the assholes. I had one as a roommate, arrogant, cocky and not really all that smart. The
+kind of people who would take notes on who left early from mandatory study hours. There
+has to be something fundamentally wrong with a person who wants to be a skimmer nuke.
There is something fundamentally wrong with you, Stover. This is bull shit.
W.E. Nichols
rrs...@ibm.net (Matt Hickman) wrote:
+In <327CC8...@flosc.net>, "Olin K. McDaniel" <omcd...@flosc.net> writes:
+>
+>Also, one correction. I stated our pay as midshipmen was $75 per month,
+>that was wrong, it was $65 per month. Also, when we graduated our base
+>pay as Ensigns went to $150 per month.
+>
+>Just trivia, hope no one objects.
+
+I am curious if the pay for U.S. midshipmen, ensigns etc. changed with the
+U.S. involvement in W.W.II, the great depression etc. Did it take an act
+of Congress to change pay? If that is the case, I suspect that the pay was
+fairly stable over the first half of the 20th century.
+
+I also suspect that U.S. Naval pay during the first half of this century was
+close to poverty level. And even officers' families often lived in a kind of
+genteel poverty.
I enlisted in 61. Pay for an E-2 was about 32 bucks a payday after taxes.
Sea pay was about $4.50. When you made AN, the pay jumped to about 38 bucks
a payday. If you were married, Uncle kicked in about 44.50. Allotments
were mandatory for E-4 and below. Quite honestly, I can not remember the
first pay raise. Probably because the raise was so large.:):) It might
have been the late 60s to early 70s.
You can make your own assessment as to poverty.
Brian C. Moum
> > + When we were in nuke school, you could tell which ones were the
skimmers. They were all
> > +the assholes. I had one as a roommate, arrogant, cocky and not
really all that smart. The
> > +kind of people who would take notes on who left early from mandatory
study hours.
Gotta stand up for us Skimmer Types. In my experience, the personality
you describe belongs to those who graduated from Boat School. (ducking
and putting on my FFE now....) (of course, you could ask 'as a newly
commissioned officer, don't you see something WRONG with blowing off
MANDATORY study hours?')
I have not found ANY difference between tubers and skimmers. (except we
have better tans.)
> But you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to be a skimmer
nuke. Almost all of them go to
> carriers. They are outside the mainstream warfare community there and
get to spend all their time
> babysitting reactors with a couple bridge/CIC watches thrown in so they
can get their water wings.
> They get engineering divisions and stand engineering watches and deal
with the nuke bs all the
> time, the officer version of a snipe.
> On a sub, you get at least your mandatory year as a nuke division
officer and EOOW, but you still
> spend a substantial amount of time studying tactics and seamanship. By
the 3rd year of your first
> tour, you probably won't stand anything more than proficiency watches as
EOOW. We always wondered
> about those people who really wanted to do that stuff all the time.
Nope, nope, nope. Complete and utter BS.
Old-style surface nuke career path: (up to around year group 1994)
- Go to power school/prototype/SWOS.
- Go to ship, qualify EOOW, have an engineering division for at least one
year. (required to take the Engineer's exam.) While doing this, qualify
SWO.
Now, given that fully HALF of the wardroom on a CGN is nukes, do you
really think manning allows keeping all of us in the hole? There were
many times South Carolina got underway with a completely nuke watch team.
Every officer on watch, Bridge, CIC, and plant, was a nuke. I spent my
last two years onboard standing only proficiency watches and running the
drill team. Otherwise, I was topside. VERY common. Even those who were
sent to CVNs first (see below) cannot have the career path you list. You
are unpromotable. Tactics and seamanship are not the sole property of the
SS(B)N community. (actually, you could claim that seamanship is the sole
property of the surface fleet. Reference previous discussions on
submarine line handlers.....)
New style surface path:
- Go to SWOS.
- Go to a newish ship - Tyco or Burke. (initial orders are awarded mostly
by national class standing - those who are picked up nuke are usually near
the top. QED.) Spend 18 - 24 months onboard in a (by definition)
non-nuke job.
- Go to power school / prototype.
- Go to a nuke and qualify nuke EOOW / Engineer.
A different perspective: the only thing a submariner will ever
drive/conn/command is one of two vessels: SSN or SSBN. As a surface
warfare officer first, (who happens to be nuke qualfied) I can
drive/conn/command anything in the surface fleet. Right now, there are
SWO(N)s in command of DDGs, FFGs, AOEs, CGNs, PCs, etc. As I see it, we
have more opportunities than the submarine community.
--
Brian
In God we trust: all others squawk Mode IV.
Prof. Vincent Brannigan
Terry Stover <tst...@amd.com> wrote:
>
>
> But you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to be a skimmer nuke. Almost all of them go to
> carriers. They are outside the mainstream warfare community there and get to spend all their time
> babysitting reactors with a couple bridge/CIC watches thrown in so they can get their water wings.
> They get engineering divisions and stand engineering watches and deal with the nuke bs all the
> time, the officer version of a snipe.
> On a sub, you get at least your mandatory year as a nuke division officer and EOOW, but you still
> spend a substantial amount of time studying tactics and seamanship. By the 3rd year of your first
> tour, you probably won't stand anything more than proficiency watches as EOOW. We always wondered
> about those people who really wanted to do that stuff all the time.
polite inquiry
Exactly what type of seamanship would you learn on any nuclear sub?
and what type of tactics are used on a Boomer?
I thought everyone on a boomer was
"outside the mainstream warfare community"
(at least that's what my friends tell me)
I thought the whole
point of being an engineering officer was not to have to worry about
either seamanship or tactics. Engineers keep the machines going.
(I fully agree that tactics are meaningfull on attack subs,
but your post didn't make the difference.
no flame intended. I train engineers and getting them to see the
"big picture" is one of my ambitions. Its hard work.
Vince
Ray Bales
Terry Stover wrote:
>
>
> But you have to ask yourself why anyone would want to be a skimmer nuke. Almost all > of them go to carriers.
Hmmmm.....on a certain surface combatant that I served on that had a gas
turbine plant, we had a Strike Officer, 1LT, Gunnery Officer...even a
CO...who were all nuc officers.
> They are outside the mainstream warfare community
On a CG/DD/DDG I'd have say that they're right in the middle of the
mainstream warfare community. Let's not forget the ones who go to CGNs
also.
> with a couple bridge/CIC watches thrown in so they can get their water wings.
The last time I looked, the requirements were a bit more stringent than
a couple of watches on the bridge and in CIC.....MUCH more.
> They get engineering divisions and stand engineering watches and deal with the nuke bs > all the time
Who else should deal with the nuc BS "all the time".....non-nucs?