Royal Marine armanments
Robert Williams
On the front cover of the latest Navy News paper (a british paper about the
RN), there is a picture of two Royal Marines commandos (of 40 commando) on
the front page, on patrol at bagram airport in afghanistan.
One of them has an LSW, and the other has an FN Minimi. My question is,
since when did the Royal marines have this weapon? I know UK special forces
have it, but these guys aren't special forces, they are regular commandos.
Thanks
Rob
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Robert Williams <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Hello,
>One of them has an LSW, and the other has an FN Minimi. My question is,
>since when did the Royal marines have this weapon? I know UK special forces
>have it, but these guys aren't special forces, they are regular commandos.
Since someone put it down within reach?
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
William Black
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:a81nrs$7d7p$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
> In article <a81m8i$aiq$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Robert Williams <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >One of them has an LSW, and the other has an FN Minimi. My question is,
> >since when did the Royal marines have this weapon? I know UK special
forces
> >have it, but these guys aren't special forces, they are regular
commandos.
>
> Since someone put it down within reach?
The Minimi has been out there for some time, attached to US forces.
Royal Marines are noted for their ability to acquire new toys.
The Royal Navy is actually worse, every RN officer I've ever met is a total
gadget freak, and must have every new toy he/she sees.
However firearms are marked with numbers and things, so I imagine they will
have swapped it for something 'non accountable'.
The big question is, what do Royal Marines have that US Special Forces
want? Apart from 3.5 litre V8 petrol fuelled Land Rovers of course...
(It couldn't have been a cap badge...)
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
TMOliver
>
> The big question is, what do Royal Marines have that US
> Special Forces want? Apart from 3.5 litre V8 petrol fuelled
> Land Rovers of course...
Having recently driven my daughter's Land Rover (on the
way to turn it in from lease) equipped with that dismal old
engine, a "retread" for which the rights to build were bought
from a US maker, I'm amazed that anyone would care, a classic
example of over-pricing and over-hypeing (although the running
gear was better than the engine in which poor fuel economy was
matched by shabby performance).
Rumor has it that Ford, pissed off at all the videos of Taliban
Nissan extended cab "personnel carriers" will offer to equip the
new Afghan defense forces with Explorer Sports in Haj green with
whip aerials, pennants, pintle mounts and fold down seats in the
bed.
TMO
Eugene Griessel
>Rumor has it that Ford, pissed off at all the videos of Taliban
>Nissan extended cab "personnel carriers" will offer to equip the
>new Afghan defense forces with Explorer Sports in Haj green with
>whip aerials, pennants, pintle mounts and fold down seats in the
>bed.
There's a bed? Good, I can take my harem into battle with me!
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat History www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/guybook.html
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because
they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous
sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
Neil Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
Martin Sinclair
>
> The big question is, what do Royal Marines have that US Special Forces
> want? Apart from 3.5 litre V8 petrol fuelled Land Rovers of course...
Erk. Make that diesel. The Army switched over for all new vehicles some
time ago, and I don't think they have a separate purchasing spec for
the Booties...
...mind you, the 75th Ranger Regt bought a pile of Landies from Special
Vehicles Division in Solihull a while back; manily because their
M151s were long in the tooth and worked to death, and because that
epitome of US vehicular engineering (the HMMWV) wouldn't fit inside
the helicopters they wanted to use....
> (It couldn't have been a cap badge...)
Why not? After all, HM Armed Forces are now fully integrated, and
I believe the US don't ask ;-)
Martin
First of Foot, Right of the Line
Martin Sinclair
>
> Having recently driven my daughter's Land Rover (on the
> way to turn it in from lease) equipped with that dismal old
> engine, a "retread" for which the rights to build were bought
> from a US maker, I'm amazed that anyone would care, a classic
> example of over-pricing and over-hypeing (although the running
> gear was better than the engine in which poor fuel economy was
> matched by shabby performance).
Take the turbo-diesel :-) (I say; how....agricultural. Good grief,
and Officer shouldn't be seen in an oil-burner unless it's
supplied by Her Majesty, or required for working ones' land....)
(OK, so I'm biased, the brother-in-law is a production engineer
at Solihull, and I've a soft spot for Landies)
He did say that the new Range Rover is particularly impressive
on-road, which should impress the UK cops, as well as off. By
way of comparison, he describes it as the match of the BMW X5
on-road, and far superior off-road :-)
Meanwhile, the newer "Wolf" Defender 110s are fast becoming the
Army's most accident-prone vehicle, given their step-change
improvement in performance once the turbocharged engine went
in.....and the average squaddie's demonstrable restraint in
charge of higher-performance vehicles X-(
> Rumor has it that Ford, pissed off at all the videos of Taliban
> Nissan extended cab "personnel carriers" will offer to equip the
> new Afghan defense forces with Explorer Sports in Haj green with
> whip aerials, pennants, pintle mounts and fold down seats in the
> bed.
And of course, the mounting to hold a 32oz "Big Gulp" is a key
item - and TINS, identified as a major need if selling to the
US market, along with wide seats ;-)
Of course, the ability to hold a quarter-pint rather than "Big
Gulp" goes down rather better with those who use SUVs off-road,
compared with those who use them to negotiate nothing steeper
than the kerb, wetter than a car park puddle, nor muddier than
missing the driveway and cutting up the front lawn......
Martin Sinclair
>
> One of them has an LSW, and the other has an FN Minimi. My question
> have it, but these guys aren't special forces, they are regular
> commandos.
Given the presence of the SBS at Baghram, there are other possibilities;
that the picture editor of Navy News got sloppy, and published an older
photo (rather than 40 Cdo RM); that there remain some SBS in Baghram,
and this was one of them; or as Andy suggests, it was unattended, and
the Mne concerned was a Scouser :-)
[1] TINS. I did my Recce course at Netheravon (dates me) while the
demo Bn was full of Liverpudlians. Morning of Day 1 on the course, we
are warned that the nicknames of said Bn run to "Fingers" and "Lefty",
and that _any_ unlocked windows and doors would be....a mistake.
A hand goes up from a QLR CSgt, who says "they've already had the
canopy off my Landrover, and it was parked outside the Guardroom...."
Brad Meyer
wrote:
>In article <a81m8i$aiq$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>Robert Williams <ma...@rscc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>Hello,
>>One of them has an LSW, and the other has an FN Minimi. My question is,
>>since when did the Royal marines have this weapon? I know UK special forces
>>have it, but these guys aren't special forces, they are regular commandos.
>
>Since someone put it down within reach?
That sounds more like the US Marines then the Royal Marines. ;-)
Brad Meyer
"It is history that teaches us to hope"
-- R E Lee
William Black
Martin Sinclair <ms...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3CA47A9D...@tality.com...
> William Black wrote:
> >
> > The big question is, what do Royal Marines have that US Special Forces
> > want? Apart from 3.5 litre V8 petrol fuelled Land Rovers of course...
>
> Erk. Make that diesel. The Army switched over for all new vehicles some
> time ago, and I don't think they have a separate purchasing spec for
> the Booties...
T he 'Wolf' standard vehicle is essentially a commercial Land Rover with a
TDi 300 Engine fitted, and slightly modified for burning several other
fuels apart from straight diesel.
However several bits of the armed forces seem to be allowed to buy V8 petrol
engined jobs from the 'Special Vehicles' bit of Land Rover, in small(ish)
quantities. Land Rover no longer market a petrol engined Defender to the
public.
For example I am led to believe that the Parachute Regiment LWB's which
mount a .50 are all petrol fuelled. As are all the HAC recce vehicles.
.
TMOliver
>
> Of course, the ability to hold a quarter-pint rather than
> "Big Gulp" goes down rather better with those who use SUVs
> off-road, compared with those who use them to negotiate
> nothing steeper than the kerb, wetter than a car park
> puddle, nor muddier than missing the driveway and cutting up
> the front lawn......
>
My spouse's new Expedition has more and more complex cupholders
than ought to be allowed in a production vehicle, even two
"expandable" to Jumbo size by removing the liners up front. She
chose it over the Yukon/Tahoe (my suggestion, although short
Yukons with split rear doors were hard to find) as more
"appealingly utilitarian" (her words). I liked my daughter's
'98 LR Discovery, but it was overpriced and undergunned.
TMO (who drives a Jetta 5 spd)
Alan Minyard
wrote:
I can remember the "armored" Land Rovers that the Hong Kong RMP's used
( I rode with them as liaison lo those many years ago). Either the
weight of the armor was excessive, or the engine was, to be polite,
"anemic".
Al Minyard
William Black
Alan Minyard <amin...@netdoor.com> wrote in message
news:b9i9auk4opp4ku0mg...@4ax.com...
> I can remember the "armored" Land Rovers that the Hong Kong RMP's used
> ( I rode with them as liaison lo those many years ago). Either the
> weight of the armor was excessive, or the engine was, to be polite,
> "anemic".
They were probably 'Shorelands' rather than Land Rovers, made by Shorts in
Belfast on Land Rover running gear.
As a rule they have the 6 cylinder 91 HP Rover engine, and with an all up
weight of 3500Kg (1000Kg more than a standard Land Rover) it's probably more
than a little sluggish. Top speed is listed as 88 kph in my copy of Janes
AFVs, which is about two thirds the speeed of a modern Defender/Wolf.
Tom Schoene
> ...mind you, the 75th Ranger Regt bought a pile of Landies from Special
> Vehicles Division in Solihull a while back; manily because their
> M151s were long in the tooth and worked to death, and because that
> epitome of US vehicular engineering (the HMMWV) wouldn't fit inside
> the helicopters they wanted to use....
And the Marines just bought some Mercedes-Benz G-wagens for the same reason.
--
Tom Schoene (replace "invalid" with "net" to email)
We must welcome the future, remembering that soon it will be the
past; and we must respect the past, knowing that once it was all that
was humanly possible. - George Santayana
Doug McClure
Robert Williams wrote in message ...
Could they possibly be RM SBS?
Kenny MacLeod
news:a84vm2$kqo$1...@plonk.apk.net...
Possibly. Not that they'd ever admit it.
Do the SBS deploy as part of regular RN units, like the SAS do with the
Paras?
Robert Williams
>
> Could they possibly be RM SBS?
>
No, there faces weren't blacked out. In UK media it is standard practice to
black out the faces of special forces troops. Also, the SBS don't use the
LSW.
Apparently it turns out that the Royal Marines have been given a "blank
cheque", so to speak, by the MoD, to get the equipment they need to get the
job done properly in afghanistan. One of the things they are getting is the
Minimi. Another thing is some kind of thermal/motion imaging device
(probably already in use by US forces).
Rob
Kerryn Offord
In the early stages of the mission to East Timor there were shots
(video) of UK personnel (RM's presumably) with M16's, minimi, etc and
none of their faces were blanked out. It later came out that SBS
personnel were involved.
So, either the RM's habitually field personnel with M16's and minimi or
they were SBS.
The same comment will apply to the photo being discussed.
Peter Kemp
<ka...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>In the early stages of the mission to East Timor there were shots
>(video) of UK personnel (RM's presumably) with M16's, minimi, etc and
>none of their faces were blanked out. It later came out that SBS
>personnel were involved.
>
>So, either the RM's habitually field personnel with M16's and minimi or
>they were SBS.
>
>The same comment will apply to the photo being discussed.
Could it have been members of whatever they're calling the A&MW Cadre
these days? IIRC they have the same felxibility in choosing kit as the
Para's Pathfinders.
Peter Kemp
Andy Spark
<olive(DEL)@calpha.com> wrote:
> Having recently driven my daughter's Land Rover (on the
> way to turn it in from lease) equipped with that dismal old
> engine, a "retread" for which the rights to build were bought
> from a US maker, I'm amazed that anyone would care, a classic
> example of over-pricing and over-hypeing (although the running
> gear was better than the engine in which poor fuel economy was
> matched by shabby performance).
Oi mind your language! -Or my v8 Defender 90 will be terribly upset.
It's a rather good engine actually, albeit somewhat long in the tooth.
-It was bought by Rover from Buick in about 1963, they had decided it
was too small for the US market
And it's not half as anaemic when you strip out all that emission
control crap. In fact it goes like shit off a shovel up to about 40mph,
which makes it *rather good fun* at the traffic lights..... -But then I
do have the 5 speed manual version....
For the record, my 90 returns 18mpg ish on the open road, my record is
27 mpg, during the fuel strike last year.
Steve Barlow
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/1905.html
"Kerryn Offord" <ka...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in message
news:3CA7B67A...@student.canterbury.ac.nz...
Robert Williams
> > cheque", so to speak, by the MoD, to get the equipment they need to get
the
> > job done properly in afghanistan. One of the things they are getting is
the
> > Minimi. Another thing is some kind of thermal/motion imaging device
> > (probably already in use by US forces).
>
> In the early stages of the mission to East Timor there were shots
> (video) of UK personnel (RM's presumably) with M16's, minimi, etc and
> none of their faces were blanked out. It later came out that SBS
> personnel were involved.
But they woulnd't have been shown. The shots were probably of marines form
the Brigade Patrol Group, who have M16's.
> The same comment will apply to the photo being discussed.
No. The RM are definately getting the Minimi. And the chaps in the photo
were regular royal marines, and both of them are named.
You might be able to see the photo on www.navynews.co.uk
Rob
TMOliver
>
> Oi mind your language! -Or my v8 Defender 90 will be
> terribly upset.
>
> It's a rather good engine actually, albeit somewhat long in
> the tooth. -It was bought by Rover from Buick in about 1963,
> they had decided it was too small for the US market
No longer 'too small" obviously, because of fuel constraints and
technology, it's outperformed in most parameters by several
current off the shelf products installed in SUV's selling for
substantially less.
>
> And it's not half as anaemic when you strip out all that
> emission control crap. In fact it goes like shit off a
> shovel up to about 40mph, which makes it *rather good fun*
> at the traffic lights..... -But then I do have the 5 speed
> manual version....
Stripping out emission controls these days is liable to have
unintennded consequences and reduce resale
potential/possibilities. ....and if you did with this elderly
V8, the results would likely be an engine producing substantial
pollutants. I'll admit the one I've driven had "orrowmatic",
and the manual is likely peppier and a bit less thirsty.
>
> For the record, my 90 returns 18mpg ish on the open road, my
> record is 27 mpg, during the fuel strike last year.
The problem (and apparently the problem which led to the
companies problems/digestion by others....
Aside from "marque-fixated" folks willing to plunk down a
substantial premium for the privilege of owning any of the line,
certainly fine vehicles and likely in the first tier of off road
performers, sales and production simply can not return profit
levels to on their own support a company. can the line survive
without being submerged among other products of its new owners?
After seeing the new "Freelander", my confidence is not
inspired. "Copycats" are fine, but even copycats with Land
Rover plaques on the fenders and priced well above the vehicles
which they're copying may find substantial market resistance.
While it's hard to determine what was natural and what
illegitimate among the "market forces" at play in Afghanistan
prior to the descent of the US on the scene, all the videos of
what appear to be near new and new Nissan and/or Toyota crew cab
pickups, many of them 4WD, used as military and paramilitary GP
vehicles, indicate a pragmatic and utilitarian approach to
vehicle selection, for though less durable than LRs and the
like, one suspects that off the shelf Japanese trucks came a
hell of a lot cheaper....
TMO
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
TMOliver <olive(DEL)@calpha.com> wrote:
>Andy Spark postulated:
V8 Landies..
>> It's a rather good engine actually, albeit somewhat long in
>> the tooth. -It was bought by Rover from Buick in about 1963,
>> they had decided it was too small for the US market
>
>No longer 'too small" obviously, because of fuel constraints and
>technology, it's outperformed in most parameters by several
>current off the shelf products installed in SUV's selling for
>substantially less.
I'd never count a Landy as being a SUV (a type of vehicle devised
for those concerned about their ability to traverse those particularly
challenging kerbs in supermarket car-parks, as far as I can see). It's
an off-road vehicle with an acceptable minimum of on-road performance
(as opposed to a Haflinger, for example, which is an off-roader which
can be driven on the road, provided you're not in any sort of a hurry
and can stand the loud buzzing sound).
Depends on what you mean by "outperformed" - the only Land-Rover with
the V8 that I've played with was the old 109" with the 90bhp version
of the 3.5. Not a lot of top-end go, but it slogged away very happily
at 1200-1800 rpm which was great for dealing with the muddy stuff (my
2.25 88" needed low-ratio third to do what the V8 was doing in
high-ratio second (or even third!!!!), and was burning a *lot* more
petrol than the V8 in the process. Land-Rover used to be pretty purist
about tuning their engines (tuning the whole vehicle) for off-road
use, whether this made it less car-like or not. The low-tune V8
was a very nice thing for the off-road stuff we were using it for
(we were shifting the booze and food for a party across a
partially-flooded field, through a river which was in a
rising state of flood and up a steep hill through a muddy wood to the
cottage - Landys are very useful at times... :). Unfortunately we
only had access to the V8 for a couple of trips.
>> For the record, my 90 returns 18mpg ish on the open road, my
>> record is 27 mpg, during the fuel strike last year.
Boggle: My 2.25 (with overdrive) never beat 18, and 12 wasn't
atypical. The 2.25 petrol engine was nothing to write home
about though. Good slogger, but that was about it.
TMOliver
>
> I'd never count a Landy as being a SUV (a type of vehicle
> devised for those concerned about their ability to traverse
> those particularly challenging kerbs in supermarket
> car-parks, as far as I can see). It's an off-road vehicle
> with an acceptable minimum of on-road performance
Obviously, most 'merkins (I inc.) don't spend that much time
"off road" and in my case a "dedicated" offroad vehicle's simply
not in the cards. We keep an ancient 4WD pickup out in the
country for hay hauling, fence mending, firewood and the like,
but it's not even "road-registered". My wife's Expedition gets
a little cross country work when hunting, weekending or the
like, but very honestly, the clearance is far more important
than sloggability. The rise of the SUV as a US mass sale item
is not simply soccer momism (although in the case of two of my
sisters and many of there contemporaries urban crash safety
[injury protection] was a principal issue). "Combined usage",
covering the long distances, hauling of substantial volumes,
a little rough road cross country, and the perception of
survivability, seems to be the major factor - adding
spaciousness for those of us old enough to have grown up with
"really big" cars, recalling that my high school era '53 DeSoto
had more cubic space in the back seat than some motel rooms of
the time.
TMO
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
TMOliver <olive(DEL)@calpha.com> wrote:
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN postulated:
>> I'd never count a Landy as being a SUV (a type of vehicle
>> devised for those concerned about their ability to traverse
>> those particularly challenging kerbs in supermarket
>> car-parks, as far as I can see). It's an off-road vehicle
>> with an acceptable minimum of on-road performance
>Obviously, most 'merkins (I inc.) don't spend that much time
>"off road" and in my case a "dedicated" offroad vehicle's simply
>not in the cards. We keep an ancient 4WD pickup out in the
>country for hay hauling, fence mending, firewood and the like,
>but it's not even "road-registered". My wife's Expedition gets
There are a *lot* of Landys like that around here. Normally
when they've stopped working as farm haulers they're used
as hen-roosts for a bit, then when the hens complain about
their accomodation the Landy gets sold on (for a large amount
of money) to some fool who wants one for local on-road work
and a bit of light timber-collecting. That's how I got mine,
except it was an ex-estate shooting brake with a good collection
of feathers from ex-pheasant in the back and no piston rings
left).
>a little cross country work when hunting, weekending or the
>like, but very honestly, the clearance is far more important
>than sloggability. The rise of the SUV as a US mass sale item
Mud is the issue off-road here, so the ability to slog away at
the lowest revs in the highest gear possible is *really* useful.
>is not simply soccer momism (although in the case of two of my
>sisters and many of there contemporaries urban crash safety
>[injury protection] was a principal issue). "Combined usage",
There's a deal of that over here, too - though given the ease
with which most 4x4s can be rolled (mine had obviously been
on both its sides at various times in its career, though it
had obviously never done the full 180) I'm not sure that there's
any gain, safety-wise (perceived safety being a whole other
story, of course).
>covering the long distances, hauling of substantial volumes,
>a little rough road cross country, and the perception of
>survivability, seems to be the major factor - adding
>spaciousness for those of us old enough to have grown up with
>"really big" cars, recalling that my high school era '53 DeSoto
>had more cubic space in the back seat than some motel rooms of
>the time.
Whereas over on this side of the pond cars have been getting
steadily bigger over the same period - a shame, IMO, as
there's a definite niche for small and light cars (I was
fond of my 2CV, though it would't be much good for towing
a boat).
Oh, and sympathies on uncovering a potential kook-of-the-year
over in ramn. Please don't let him find his way here..
William Black
> I'd never count a Landy as being a SUV (a type of vehicle devised
> for those concerned about their ability to traverse those particularly
> challenging kerbs in supermarket car-parks, as far as I can see).
On my log book it says 'Utility Vehicle'
> >> For the record, my 90 returns 18mpg ish on the open road, my
> >> record is 27 mpg, during the fuel strike last year.
>
> Boggle: My 2.25 (with overdrive) never beat 18, and 12 wasn't
> atypical. The 2.25 petrol engine was nothing to write home
> about though. Good slogger, but that was about it.
He he he
My Defender 90 TDi 300 gives 28 mpg diesel most of the time and does 85 mph
(but consumption goes up to about 20 mpg)
Alan Minyard
wrote:
I suppose that I am atypical, but my off road vehicle of choice is an
83 Jeep CJ-7 with a 400 cu in (6.5 ltr) chevy engine and appropriate
tires, gears etc. If I set it up properly for the conditions (desert,
mountain, mud, etc.) It will go darn near anywhere, and is a fine
illustration of the fact that a truly tricked out 4-wd vehicle can get
you stuck much farther from the nearest road.
Al Minyard
Paul J. Adam
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>There's a deal of that over here, too - though given the ease
>with which most 4x4s can be rolled (mine had obviously been
>on both its sides at various times in its career, though it
>had obviously never done the full 180) I'm not sure that there's
>any gain, safety-wise (perceived safety being a whole other
>story, of course).
The all-time classic radio message from a TA exercise. "Zero Alpha, this
is Dover, I've rolled my Rover over, Over."
The high-ground-clearance 4x4s are quite easy to flip over to drivers
used to modern automobiles (or, worse, those of us who try to tighten a
turn by leaning further in and pushing the bar^H^H^Hwheel further away
from the curve). I've been in the back of a well-driven Landie on a bad
track, where its cross-country performance was well demonstrated: I've
also tried to drive the damn things myself. Skill and experience is
required.
There's also the problem that drivers in their four-wheel-drive urban
warfare vehicles think they're safe and so tend to act as if they're
immune to all other road users. Motorcyclists curse them for their habit
of pulling out without looking, resulting in badly mangled bikers; while
truckers resent them for their similar apparent belief that their crash
cage will withstand forty tons of articulated lorry applied at
point-blank range.
I think a sense of vulnerability is an important element of road sense.
To see that sharp, hard, nasty road surface flashing past and to know
that you do _not_ want to meet it today, is a great incentive to being a
cautious considerate road-user.
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill
Paul J. Adam ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk
BlackBeard
<ms...@tality.com> wrote:
>
>Given the presence of the SBS at Baghram, there are other possibilities;
>that the picture editor of Navy News got sloppy, and published an older
>photo (rather than 40 Cdo RM); that there remain some SBS in Baghram,
>and this was one of them; or as Andy suggests, it was unattended, and
>the Mne concerned was a Scouser :-)
Damn, I've been waiting for the opportunity to show off my minute
knowledge and use 'Scouser' in a reply to you or Paul. One of our
frequent customers grew up in Liverpool and moved here some 30 years ago
(in his 60 or 70's now). We were talking about the UK during some
'between tests' down time and he mentioned he was a scouser. After
educating us in the control room I could hardly wait to flaunt my
micro-knowledge... Oh well, never mind.. *sulk*
BlackBeard
Submarines once, Submarines twice...
" To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others;
To leave the world a better place, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition;
To know even one life has breathed easier because you lived.
This is to have succeeded".
John Halliwell
<amin...@netdoor.com> writes
>I suppose that I am atypical, but my off road vehicle of choice is an
>83 Jeep CJ-7 with a 400 cu in (6.5 ltr) chevy engine and appropriate
>tires, gears etc. If I set it up properly for the conditions (desert,
>mountain, mud, etc.) It will go darn near anywhere, and is a fine
>illustration of the fact that a truly tricked out 4-wd vehicle can get
>you stuck much farther from the nearest road.
Not only much further out, but also much better stuck.
--
John
Preston, Lancs, UK.
John Halliwell
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>Boggle: My 2.25 (with overdrive) never beat 18, and 12 wasn't
>atypical. The 2.25 petrol engine was nothing to write home
>about though. Good slogger, but that was about it.
My ex-MOD 109 2.25 never beat 16 (UK gallons) even on a 'run' as they
say. I can't comment on if it was any better with the overdrive I fitted
as I couldn't afford to run it long enough after fitting to find out
(that was when fuel was 50p/l).
Worst case was 8, best on the 'urban' cycle was around 13.3 (I remember
that figure very well), usually returned between 12 and 13. It's
currently sat next to a donor Rover SD1 with a 155bhp (ish?) 3.5 V8 in
the workshop (aka my parents driveway - can't keep it at my property).
John Halliwell
<black_...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:a89qr3$eu8j$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
>
>> I'd never count a Landy as being a SUV (a type of vehicle devised
>> for those concerned about their ability to traverse those particularly
>> challenging kerbs in supermarket car-parks, as far as I can see).
>
>On my log book it says 'Utility Vehicle'
Mine says 'twin axle rigid body'.
Andrew Chaplin
> The all-time classic radio message from a TA exercise. "Zero Alpha, this
> is Dover, I've rolled my Rover over, Over."
Along with, on a fire orders line, "Six-Niner, this is Six. Eat me.
Over" "Six-Niner. Eat me. Out." and, "Two, this is Zero. You are now
Three. Happy birthday to you. Over."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger."
out, and change "home" to "rogers".)
Kerryn Offord
TMOliver wrote:
>
> Andy Spark postulated:
>
>
> >
> > Oi mind your language! -Or my v8 Defender 90 will be
> > terribly upset.
> >
> > It's a rather good engine actually, albeit somewhat long in
> > the tooth. -It was bought by Rover from Buick in about 1963,
> > they had decided it was too small for the US market
>
> No longer 'too small" obviously, because of fuel constraints and
> technology, it's outperformed in most parameters by several
> current off the shelf products installed in SUV's selling for
> substantially less.
<SNIP>
> While it's hard to determine what was natural and what
> illegitimate among the "market forces" at play in Afghanistan
> prior to the descent of the US on the scene, all the videos of
> what appear to be near new and new Nissan and/or Toyota crew cab
> pickups, many of them 4WD, used as military and paramilitary GP
> vehicles, indicate a pragmatic and utilitarian approach to
> vehicle selection, for though less durable than LRs and the
> like, one suspects that off the shelf Japanese trucks came a
> hell of a lot cheaper....
Something to remember about Land Rovers (and Range Rovers) is that
because of the way they are built they have a very good carry and tow
capacity especially when compared with the Japanese vehicles (something
like a 2 ton difference in tow weight between a series one Range Rover
(2 door) and the contemporary Land Cruiser).
Sometimes the Land Rover is just the better vehicle for the job (other
times cost counts the most)
Eugene Griessel
>In article <3CA49F10...@tality.com>, Martin Sinclair
><ms...@tality.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Given the presence of the SBS at Baghram, there are other possibilities;
>>that the picture editor of Navy News got sloppy, and published an older
>>photo (rather than 40 Cdo RM); that there remain some SBS in Baghram,
>>and this was one of them; or as Andy suggests, it was unattended, and
>>the Mne concerned was a Scouser :-)
>
>
> Damn, I've been waiting for the opportunity to show off my minute
>knowledge and use 'Scouser' in a reply to you or Paul. One of our
>frequent customers grew up in Liverpool and moved here some 30 years ago
>(in his 60 or 70's now). We were talking about the UK during some
>'between tests' down time and he mentioned he was a scouser. After
>educating us in the control room I could hardly wait to flaunt my
>micro-knowledge... Oh well, never mind.. *sulk*
Never mind BB - you can always cook up a nice mess of genuine
Liverpool scouse and enjoy it.
Scouse
-----------
5 lbs Potatoes
2 lbs Stewing Steak
2 Large Cooking Onions
4 Large Carrots
1 Tin Chopped Tomatoes
1 Level Tablespoon of White Sugar
5 Stock Cubes
1 Bay Leaf
Salt and Black Pepper
Method
-----------
Chop the stewing steak into cubes. Peel, clean and dice the carrots
and onion. Peel, clean and cut the potatoes into bite size chunks.
Take a large pan and fill with 4 pints of water.
Add the steak, carrots, onions, tomatoes and bay leaf.
Crush the stock cubes and add along with the sugar.
Add black pepper to taste.
Bring to the boil and then simmer until the carrots are tender.
Add potatoes, bring back to the boil and then simmer for a further
20-30 minutes.
Add salt to taste.
Voila - Liverpool Scouse!
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat History www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/guybook.html
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because
they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous
sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
Neil Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
Brian Sharrock
"BlackBeard" <Black...@middle.of.nowhere> wrote in message
news:BlackBeard-01...@keck-mac.chinalake.navy.mil...
snip
>
> Damn, I've been waiting for the opportunity to show off my minute
> knowledge and use 'Scouser' in a reply to you or Paul. One of our
> frequent customers grew up in Liverpool and moved here some 30 years ago
> (in his 60 or 70's now). We were talking about the UK during some
> 'between tests' down time and he mentioned he was a scouser. After
> educating us in the control room I could hardly wait to flaunt my
> micro-knowledge... Oh well, never mind.. *sulk*
>
To supplement your micro-knowledge; some helpful pico-knowledge;-
Scouser, aka Liverpudlian, is a descriptive noun
in the vocative case it takes the form "Scouse!"
with increasing familiarity the word may be replaced
by 'Wacker (nominative)/ Wack (vocative)' and ultimately
"Our Kid (proun. R'Kid}.
Wacker is a fellow Liverpudlian
"Our Kid" is a family member / sibling / brother / sister.
Thus;-
Ossifer;- "Instruct a hand to execute an evolution"
Blackbeard;- "Aye Aye, I'll instruct the scouser!"
Blackbeard;- "Scouse!"
HonestScouser;- "Aye!"
Blackbeard;- "Eh Wack, He want's you to do this!"
HonestScouser;- "I require instruction, Chief!" (more normally "R hay!")
Blackbeard;- "You can do it our kid! [explanation]"
HonestScouser springs willingly to perform task with bright eyes
and uplifted heart.
Similiar scenes have been played out on many of HM ships.
Two scousers unknown to each other will start a conversation
with "Eh Wack, what time's the next bus" or somesuch.
A scouser will always converse, all quiet intervals must be filled
with conversation.
One can walk into any drinking hostelry, in any city,
in any country, at any time and ask "Has anyone seen Scouse?"
and get a reply along the lines "He's just left / over there /
not been in yet".
--
Brian
Eugene Griessel
>One can walk into any drinking hostelry, in any city,
>in any country, at any time and ask "Has anyone seen Scouse?"
>and get a reply along the lines "He's just left / over there /
>not been in yet".
Strangely the only "Scouse" I've ever known was a military barber of
such execrable talent that he was rejected by the prison service as
not fit to do the heads of the long term prisoners. Known plenty of
"whacks" though ....
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
And, if you've got a really well-tricked-out 4x4 and you're doing really
well, better stuck beyond the length of your winch cable.
Reported quotes from Land-Rover's development driver (mid-80s, this):
"Just so long as you remember that the badge on the front says 'Land
Rover' and not 'Centurion'"
and
"Most problems off-road involve failure of the component between the
steering wheel hub and the seat back"
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Kerryn Offord <ka...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>TMOliver wrote:
>> illegitimate among the "market forces" at play in Afghanistan
>> prior to the descent of the US on the scene, all the videos of
>> what appear to be near new and new Nissan and/or Toyota crew cab
>> pickups, many of them 4WD, used as military and paramilitary GP
>> vehicles, indicate a pragmatic and utilitarian approach to
>> vehicle selection, for though less durable than LRs and the
>> like, one suspects that off the shelf Japanese trucks came a
>> hell of a lot cheaper....
>Sometimes the Land Rover is just the better vehicle for the job (other
>times cost counts the most)
Nice thing about Landys has always been the Aluminium bodywork (and,
from a fairly early stage with the milspec ones at least, the galvanised
chassis). Means they don't rust. In .uk (and much of europe) where mud,
gunk and salt are problems this really does help - you see a lot of
elderly Landys around here. You *don't* see many comparably old
Landcruisers, Suzukis or Daihatsu fourtracks, and it's not because they
weren't sold. They've just rusted. By the look of the film footage heavy
mud and rainfall (and salt water) are rather less of a problem in
Afghanistan, and I suspect the main limits on the life of 4x4s there are
(a) mechanical wear-and-tear, which will kill anything in time and (b)
friends, neighbours, allies and enemies with HMGs and rocket-launchers
(ditto).
Besides, would any self-respecting bandit chief drive a '72 Land-Rover
if he can persuade someone to donate a brand-new Landcruiser with
all the trimmings?
Eugene Griessel
>Nice thing about Landys has always been the Aluminium bodywork (and,
>from a fairly early stage with the milspec ones at least, the galvanised
>chassis). Means they don't rust. In .uk (and much of europe) where mud,
>gunk and salt are problems this really does help - you see a lot of
>elderly Landys around here. You *don't* see many comparably old
>Landcruisers, Suzukis or Daihatsu fourtracks, and it's not because they
>weren't sold. They've just rusted. By the look of the film footage heavy
>mud and rainfall (and salt water) are rather less of a problem in
>Afghanistan, and I suspect the main limits on the life of 4x4s there are
>(a) mechanical wear-and-tear, which will kill anything in time and (b)
>friends, neighbours, allies and enemies with HMGs and rocket-launchers
>(ditto).
>Besides, would any self-respecting bandit chief drive a '72 Land-Rover
>if he can persuade someone to donate a brand-new Landcruiser with
>all the trimmings?
OT - have you ever read PJ O'Rourke's article on the 4x4 tests he
participated in in Wales?
Brian Sharrock
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@.dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
news:3ca94d57...@news.iafrica.com...
> Black...@middle.of.nowhere (BlackBeard) wrote:
>
> >In article <3CA49F10...@tality.com>, Martin Sinclair
> ><ms...@tality.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
>
> Never mind BB - you can always cook up a nice mess of genuine
> Liverpool scouse and enjoy it.
>
> Scouse
> -----------
>
> 5 lbs Potatoes
> 2 lbs Stewing Steak
^^^ according to meGran; it should be mutton :)
> 2 Large Cooking Onions
> 4 Large Carrots
> 1 Tin Chopped Tomatoes
^^^ 'Tin? Tin? We used to dream of tins .... :)
> 1 Level Tablespoon of White Sugar
> 5 Stock Cubes
^^^ 'Stock cubes? Stock Cubes?' We used to dream ... :)
> 1 Bay Leaf
> Salt and Black Pepper
>
> Method
snip
>
> Voila - Liverpool Scouse!
>
Leave out the meat for _blind_ scouse. 'Meat? Meat? We used to dream ... .
Scouse is a derivative of the scandawegian lobscouse. It was a staple
meal of the very poor and Eugene's recipe would have fed a very large
family.
--
Brian
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Eugene Griessel <eugene.@dynagen..co..za> wrote:
>OT - have you ever read PJ O'Rourke's article on the 4x4 tests he
>participated in in Wales?
I've not - which of the books was that it. I may have to investigate.
Do remember reading of the press-tests of the Toyota Landcruiser
when it was (re-) introduced to .uk at the beginning of the 80s
- the tests were on one of the Scottish islands (Islay, in fact - so
this thread is very much on-topic for smn). The Toyota PR androids
asked the local garage for advice on test-routes. They really ought
to have noticed the Land-Rover sign outside.
Mr. Pressman, meet Mr. Landcruiser. Mr, Landcruiser, meet
Mr. Bottomless-Peat-Bog.
After that it was simply a matter getting a film camera for the
footage of one Landcruiser after another being extracted from
the swamp by a Land-Rover (with a winch, standing on firm
ground about 10 metres or so from the hole into which the press
had fallen).
Eugene Griessel
>
> ^^^ according to meGran; it should be mutton :)
Yup - bu mutton is so pricey in these parts these days.
>> 2 Large Cooking Onions
>> 4 Large Carrots
>> 1 Tin Chopped Tomatoes
>
> ^^^ 'Tin? Tin? We used to dream of tins .... :)
If you want you can chop your own tomatoes - I find a tin easier.
>
>> 1 Level Tablespoon of White Sugar
>> 5 Stock Cubes
>
> ^^^ 'Stock cubes? Stock Cubes?' We used to dream ... :)
The old lady used to boil bones for stock. But the cubes are so much
quicker.
>
>> 1 Bay Leaf
>> Salt and Black Pepper
>>
>> Method
>
>snip
>
>>
>> Voila - Liverpool Scouse!
>>
>Leave out the meat for _blind_ scouse. 'Meat? Meat? We used to dream ... .
>Scouse is a derivative of the scandawegian lobscouse. It was a staple
>meal of the very poor and Eugene's recipe would have fed a very large
>family.
Not only that, if some guests rocked up at that large family's dinner,
it was fairly easy to stretch the scouse by the addition of a few odds
and sods. Much depended on the viscosity of the gravy .....
My old man grew up as a member of a large family (16 siblings from two
marriages) during the depression. And being that sort of a family
there were always hungry people brought in from the street to share
the meal. All this on a police sergeant's pay. So granma really knew
how to streeeeetch the scouse.
Eugene Griessel
>In article <3ca9883b...@news.iafrica.com>,
>Eugene Griessel <eugene.@dynagen..co..za> wrote:
>
>>OT - have you ever read PJ O'Rourke's article on the 4x4 tests he
>>participated in in Wales?
>
>I've not - which of the books was that it. I may have to investigate.
Age and Guile beat Youth, Innocence and a Bad Haircut. Section called
"Drives to Nowhere" chapter entitled "The Welsh National Combined Mud
Wrestling and Spelling Bee Championship".
I'll scan it for you if you are interested and cannot lay hands on a
copy.
Stephen Shepherd
> William Black postulated:
>
> >
> > The big question is, what do Royal Marines have that US
> > Special Forces want? Apart from 3.5 litre V8 petrol fuelled
> > Land Rovers of course...
>
> Having recently driven my daughter's Land Rover (on the
> way to turn it in from lease) equipped with that dismal old
> engine, a "retread" for which the rights to build were bought
> from a US maker, I'm amazed that anyone would care, a classic
> example of over-pricing and over-hypeing (although the running
> gear was better than the engine in which poor fuel economy was
> matched by shabby performance).
>
IIRC, the modern Land Rocer Defender which is supplied to HM Forces
differs somewhat from the standard civilian vehicle. Judging by the
number of them I see speeding past in the outside lane of the motorway,
I'd say they're not lacking in performance. A little while ago I talked
to a pongo who'd been on the selection team for the new Army 4x4. The
reason they chose the Land Rover over the Humvee, the main contender,
was that they were half the price, could go 9o or 95% of the places a
Humvee could go, and if they dud get stuck could be hauled out by
manpower (the Humvee being rather heavier requires another vehicle - or
so I was told).
>
> Rumor has it that Ford, pissed off at all the videos of Taliban
> Nissan extended cab "personnel carriers" will offer to equip the
> new Afghan defense forces with Explorer Sports in Haj green with
> whip aerials, pennants, pintle mounts and fold down seats in the
> bed.
>
> TMO
>
Well, Ford owns Land Rover now, so maybe a few Defenders or
Discovery's? Range Rovers for the top lot? A sprinkling of Freelanders
for city work?
B F Lake
> Never mind BB - you can always cook up a nice mess of genuine
> Liverpool scouse and enjoy it.
BB has the nous for making it too. (can you say plenty of nous or is it a
thing like pregnancy which does not have degrees -of?)
Regards,
Barry
Stephen Shepherd
> In article <U$AlHbAq+...@photopia.demon.co.uk>,
> John Halliwell <jo...@photopia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >In article <veehau83nl2emb6fn...@4ax.com>, Alan Minyard
> ><amin...@netdoor.com> writes
> >>I suppose that I am atypical, but my off road vehicle of choice is an
> >>83 Jeep CJ-7 with a 400 cu in (6.5 ltr) chevy engine and appropriate
> >>tires, gears etc. If I set it up properly for the conditions (desert,
> >>mountain, mud, etc.) It will go darn near anywhere, and is a fine
> >>illustration of the fact that a truly tricked out 4-wd vehicle can get
> >>you stuck much farther from the nearest road.
>
> >Not only much further out, but also much better stuck.
>
> And, if you've got a really well-tricked-out 4x4 and you're doing really
> well, better stuck beyond the length of your winch cable.
>
> Reported quotes from Land-Rover's development driver (mid-80s, this):
> "Just so long as you remember that the badge on the front says 'Land
> Rover' and not 'Centurion'"
>
Some colleagues of mine got an old RN Landy stuck in a huge, tank derived,
quagmire at Langmoor Army camp. Had to be towed out by a tracked recovery
vehicle. While they were waiting an Army Lynx came to have a look, they
said most embarrassing as the Landy was painted all blue with ROYAL NAVY
stencilled down the side.
Martin Sinclair
>
> However several bits of the armed forces seem to be allowed to buy V8
> petrol engined jobs from the 'Special Vehicles' bit of Land Rover,
> in small(ish) quantities.
TINS. (Hey, twice in one thread)
Story goes that the London Scottish sell their TA Centre. Due to its,
shall we say, "prime" site in London, they make enough cash from the
sale to build a brand new TA centre, and have a fair bit left over.
Some of which they used to ....upgrade... their equipment.
As a NATO-roled unit, they had their new petrol LR Defender 110s (we,
being envious Home Defence types, still had Series III LWB).
Additionally, the Army had just lost Crown Immunity, and "Health and
Safety" were fast becoming yet another excuse for the Quartermaster
to muck you about.
Apparently, they'd sent their wagons to Special Vehicles
at their own expense, got them modified (pintle mounts, fitted
radio harnesses, bergen racks, roll bars, lights, the lot). The
piece de resistance was having Special Vehicles issue a safety
certificate for the work done, which they then waved in the
faces of all those in G4 side who cried "unsafe"........
....apparently the Duke of Westminster did the same sort of thing
when he was a Yeomanry CO (TA Cavalry). Sent a Range Rover off to
Special Vehicles for fitting out as his staff car :-)
(Oh yes, given it took a full day to rig our recce wagons with their
radio harnesses, we were ever so impressed by our G4 tail-wag-dog
insistence that _everything_ be stripped out of the wagons before
their six-monthly service)
Anyway, we were having "no, you can't strip down your Landrovers,
you haven't got rollbars" "no, we won't order pintle mounts for
you" etc etc conversations with the battalion's Quartermaster,
when the Recce Platoon of London Scottish rolled up to the annual
Scottish recce concentration.
Lucky B**tards (we all thought). Mind you, when you looked at the
War Establishment of home-defence-roled units, it included 4WD
vehicles taken up from civilian sources. Hmmmm, we thought,
straight down to the LR dealership at Queen's Order II for a
brand new Range Rover :-) :-)
ObSMN: My recce role initially involved providing OPs for
several naval establishments in the West of Scotland.....
...no, not the big ones, the tiddly ones.
Martin
First of Foot, Right of the Line
Martin Sinclair
>
> The rise of the SUV as a US mass sale item is not simply soccer
> contemporaries urban crash safety [injury protection] was a
> principal issue).
Those chassis-based Landrovers (Defender, Disco, Range Rover) are
reassuring in that their concept of a crumple zone is "the other
car"...and the Aluminium bodywork on Defenders is dead easy to
beat back into shape, with the Series II and III rivalling the
deux-chevaux in shade-tree-engineer maintainability....
...the problem being similar to the provision of armour on ships.
Try as you might, the argument that "avoiding the hit in the first
place" (good braking performance is notably lacking in large 4WDs,
and they can roll if thrown about violently) is often outweighed
by the instinct for more armour.......
Mind you, we can confess to having a brace of Volvo V40, selected
because they're nice cars, and for safety. A concern, with the
recent arrival of firstborn and heir to House Sinclair.......
....yup, all those exercises where someone kicked me awake at
random times through the night are at last demonstrably useful...
Martin
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Martin Sinclair <ms...@tality.com> wrote:
>TMOliver wrote:
>>
>> The rise of the SUV as a US mass sale item is not simply soccer
>> momism (although in the case of two of my sisters and many of their
>> contemporaries urban crash safety [injury protection] was a
>> principal issue).
>
>Those chassis-based Landrovers (Defender, Disco, Range Rover) are
>reassuring in that their concept of a crumple zone is "the other
>car"...and the Aluminium bodywork on Defenders is dead easy to
I recall watching a guy in a Lincoln "off-roader"[1] attempt
to make enough room to park his behemoth by shoving the vehicles
in front and behind some distance forwards and backwards. He
may hace been a Boston driver (this was in Nantucket). Unfortunately
for his wallet the vehicle behind was a Series II Landy, in low
gear, transmission brake on. The Lincoln eneded up a good foot
shorter. Quite spectacular, and very funny.
>beat back into shape, with the Series II and III rivalling the
>deux-chevaux in shade-tree-engineer maintainability....
And - as with the tin snail, you don't care what the result
looks like so long as it's not touching anything.
[1] Really. Never seen such a funny sight before.
BlackBeard
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@.dynagen..co..za> wrote in >
>
>BB has the nous for making it too. (can you say plenty of nous or is it a
>thing like pregnancy which does not have degrees -of?)
Well, I'd leave out the salt since the 'stock cubes' here already have
enough salt to gag a flounder. Also, the carrots will be mush with that
recipe. Diced that small, the potatoes and the carrots will cook in about
the same time.
But other than the tomatoes it sounds like a basic stew. I might try it soon.
Although I'll use the beef. I'd couldn't convince the family to eat
mutton again (I talked them into trying it once...).
;)
William Black
>I suspect the main limits on the life of 4x4s there are
> (a) mechanical wear-and-tear, which will kill anything in time and (b)
> friends, neighbours, allies and enemies with HMGs and rocket-launchers
> (ditto).
> Besides, would any self-respecting bandit chief drive a '72 Land-Rover
> if he can persuade someone to donate a brand-new Landcruiser with
> all the trimmings?
A friend of mine is a sheep farmer up near Whitby. He tried one of the nice
shiny Far Eastern 4x4s. He tells me the main problem is that some of the
hoses/cables/bits pass under the chassis rather than, as on Land Rovers,
passing over.
This results in things like brake hoses and etc being ripped off on rocks
and things where a Defender/Discovery just bumps the chassis.
I imagine the lifespan of nice shiny 4x4s in Afghanistan is fairly short,
there seem to be a lot more rocks there than here in North Yorkshire...
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Paul J. Adam
<shep...@bcs.org.uk> writes
>Some colleagues of mine got an old RN Landy stuck in a huge, tank derived,
>quagmire at Langmoor Army camp. Had to be towed out by a tracked recovery
>vehicle. While they were waiting an Army Lynx came to have a look, they
>said most embarrassing as the Landy was painted all blue with ROYAL NAVY
>stencilled down the side.
We managed to bog a Landie down on Salisbury Plain.
Fixed the problem by the entire platoon picking it up and carrying it to
drier ground...
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
>Those chassis-based Landrovers (Defender, Disco, Range Rover) are
>reassuring in that their concept of a crumple zone is "the other
>car".
I forget exactly which 4WD vehicle was involved in an anecdote I
remember for at least 30 years back, but there weren't many of them at
the time: this guy had been blown off by a guy in an expensive sports
car--Mercedes, Ferrari, something like, who flipped him a bird in the
doing.
A few miles on, he happened to pull up behind the same car at a stop
sign at an extremely busy intersection, just beyond a railroad grade
crossing which a long train had just cleared (which is why he had
caught up with the two seater). The guy in the two seater was waiting
for a hole in cross traffic, when our guy eased his vehicle up to
touch the rear of the car in front, put it into FWD low, and pushed
the other guy out into the middle of the intersection, enabling him to
make the right turn he wanted. There were two long black streaks from
the two seater's tires left behind.
Peter Skelton
It was printed in Car and Driver about a Jeep Wagoneer, an then a
couple of years later in Road & Track about some other vehicle
(these had to be while I was at university). I think it's like
the one about the carrier (battleship, 74, trimerene) and the
lighthouse.
____
Peter Skelton
Andrew Chaplin
> We managed to bog a Landie down on Salisbury Plain.
>
> Fixed the problem by the entire platoon picking it up and carrying it to
> drier ground...
Nothing exceeds like excess.
In my time as a Driver, Wheeled Artillery, I managed to get anything
and everything bogged down at some point or other, and could unbog
most of it myself. I operated a few Landies (half-tonnies) in UNEF. I
am afraid they were not as good as the M38A1CDN3 jeeps, and no match
for the M37 3/4 ton Dodge Powerpig. I hope recent Land Rover
iterations have improved.
Guy Alcala
> TMOliver wrote:
> >
> > The rise of the SUV as a US mass sale item is not simply soccer
> > momism (although in the case of two of my sisters and many of their
> > contemporaries urban crash safety [injury protection] was a
> > principal issue).
>
> Those chassis-based Landrovers (Defender, Disco, Range Rover) are
> reassuring in that their concept of a crumple zone is "the other
> car"...and the Aluminium bodywork on Defenders is dead easy to
> beat back into shape, with the Series II and III rivalling the
> deux-chevaux in shade-tree-engineer maintainability....
>
> ...the problem being similar to the provision of armour on ships.
> Try as you might, the argument that "avoiding the hit in the first
> place" (good braking performance is notably lacking in large 4WDs,
> and they can roll if thrown about violently) is often outweighed
> by the instinct for more armour.......
A friend and his then-fiancee (now wife) were traveling though Monument
Valley in Arizona in their Ford Expedition, when a flatbed truck and
trailer hauling three forty-foot long steel pipes (perhaps 4-5,000 lb.
each?) heading in the other direction on the two lane undivided road,
came around a turn too fast, about sixty mph or so according to his
estimate. The bed tilted, the straps holding the pipes on the trailer
broke followed by the metal retaining bands holding them together, and
they proceeded to roll off the trailer one after another, heading
directly for his grill. He saw it coming and steered hard right to avoid
the first one, heading off into the desert sagebrush. Whether the abrupt
change of course would have caused him to roll over to the left we'll
never know, as the first pipe dug its forward end into the road asphalt
and, not having given up much if any kinetic energy, proceeded to pivot
around that end, much like a swung baseball bat. It struck the left
front end and all along the left side of the vehicle, breaking the engine
mounts and knocking it on its right side and off the road, where it
continued to skid along for a ways. The second and third pipes
apparently beat on the now exposed chassis in their turn, although this
is somewhat uncertain (his recollection of events at this point is
understandably vague). The left side of the vehicle was well smashed in,
and all the window glass on the front, left and rear had fractured, but
stayed in one piece (hooray for shatterproof glass). Both were belted
and both airbags deployed, breaking his glasses and bruising his head,
chest and neck. His wife in the passenger seat suffered more severe
spinal injuries (still in physical therapy a year and a half later). It
proved impossible for them to get out the left side, owing both to the
vehicle damage and their physical condition, and the only way they could
get out was to crawl out through her window (the thing had stopped
straddling a small gully, so there was just room to do so).
I often point out to him that in a more nimble vehicle he could probably
avoid far more accidents than he'd get into with this one, although in
this case the chance of that was limited. He agrees, but that didn't
stop him from going right down to the dealer and buying another
Expedition as soon as the insurance company paid off on the first one;-)
Guy
B F Lake
> >BB has the nous for making it too. (can you say plenty of nous or is
it a
> >thing like pregnancy which does not have degrees -of?)
>
>
> Well, I'd leave out the salt since the 'stock cubes' here already have
> enough salt to gag a flounder.
My feeble attempt to use my micro -knowledge word was a damp squib it seems.
Maybe somebody can translate to get us both out of this soup.
Thanks,
Barry
John Halliwell
>...the problem being similar to the provision of armour on ships.
>Try as you might, the argument that "avoiding the hit in the first
>place" (good braking performance is notably lacking in large 4WDs,
>and they can roll if thrown about violently) is often outweighed
>by the instinct for more armour.......
There's an art to driving a Landie, you have to be aware that in some
circumstances, it's safer to give it a lot more welly than trying to
stop. Brakes frequently get a bad reputation, often unfairly. The
vehicle weighs a lot more, but the brakes are generally bigger to
compensate. Where old Landies get their reputation from is comparing 60s
or 70s unassisted drum brakes to modern disks with servos and all the
rest. Compare them to a similar period car with similar (but smaller
brakes) and they'd probably come out with similar stopping performance.
When I absolutely had to stop my 109 in a hurry, careful use of engine
braking and very heavy pressure on the brake pedal, would stop it
surprisingly quickly (but it never felt like that from the drivers
seat). Only problem was the red glow of the oil light as all the oil
rushed to the front of the engine.
--
John
Preston, Lancs, UK.
Peter Kemp
ISAF forces patrolling in Kabul, one of which had an L85A2, and the
other a Minimi.
They were not Marines, but Royal Anlgian Regiment (ob smn - East
Anglia is by the sea - I know, not really good enough).
So does anyone definitively know if the LSW is history? I can't recall
seeing one for quite a while on the news, nor the published photos.
Nothing on the MOD websites though.
TIA
Peter Kemp
Jim Herring
> Scouse
> -----------
>
> 5 lbs Potatoes
> 2 lbs Stewing Steak
> 2 Large Cooking Onions
> 4 Large Carrots
> 1 Tin Chopped Tomatoes
> 1 Level Tablespoon of White Sugar
> 5 Stock Cubes
> 1 Bay Leaf
> Salt and Black Pepper
>
> Method
> -----------
>
> Chop the stewing steak into cubes. Peel, clean and dice the carrots
> and onion. Peel, clean and cut the potatoes into bite size chunks.
> Take a large pan and fill with 4 pints of water.
> Add the steak, carrots, onions, tomatoes and bay leaf.
> Crush the stock cubes and add along with the sugar.
> Add black pepper to taste.
> Bring to the boil and then simmer until the carrots are tender.
> Add potatoes, bring back to the boil and then simmer for a further
> 20-30 minutes.
> Add salt to taste.
>
> Voila - Liverpool Scouse!
Dammit. The Brits have stolen my Texan family's recipe. But, we add garlic and some Lee
and Perrins. And, we don't need no sugar or stock cubes. :)
--
Jim
carry on
Tom Schoene
"Peter Kemp" <pk...@iee.org> wrote in message
news:e1nkauonu6ophb7hs...@4ax.com...
I'm abut 90% sure that I saw some LSWs in coverage of operations in Sierra
Leone. If it's been ditched, it happened since sometime in late 2000.
--
Tom Schoene (replace "invalid" with "net" to email)
We must welcome the future, remembering that soon it will be the
past; and we must respect the past, knowing that once it was all that
was humanly possible. - George Santayana
Kerryn Offord
Tom Schoene wrote:
>
> "Peter Kemp" <pk...@iee.org> wrote in message
> news:e1nkauonu6ophb7hs...@4ax.com...
> > Ok, the Minimi plot thickens. BBC America news this evening had UK
> > ISAF forces patrolling in Kabul, one of which had an L85A2, and the
> > other a Minimi.
> >
> > They were not Marines, but Royal Anlgian Regiment (ob smn - East
> > Anglia is by the sea - I know, not really good enough).
> >
> > So does anyone definitively know if the LSW is history? I can't recall
> > seeing one for quite a while on the news, nor the published photos.
> > Nothing on the MOD websites though.
>
> I'm abut 90% sure that I saw some LSWs in coverage of operations in Sierra
> Leone. If it's been ditched, it happened since sometime in late 2000.
Reading through posts at
http://pub88.ezboard.com/foffroaderrantpagefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=90.topic&start=41&stop=44
<Quote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bob Military Police Posts: 721 (3/2/02 3:08:05 pm)
LSW
I agree with the comment "The concept of part sharing between an IW & a
LSW is an extremely valid one." The only drawback to this is that the
LSW is only issued with the same 30-round mag as the IW. This, in
effect, gives the weapon an in-built 30-round stoppage factor. Our boys
in Afghanistan are using the Minimi (I believe on a scale of 1 LSW plus
1 Minimi per section instead of two LSWs) to overcome this problem. It's
just a pity that MoD didn't also give H&K authority to trial/modify
other high capacity 5.56 mags to work with SA80A2 LSW.
Bob
<End Quote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Alexander (Sandy) McClearn
> can the line survive
> without being submerged among other products of its new owners?
> After seeing the new "Freelander", my confidence is not
> inspired. "Copycats" are fine, but even copycats with Land
> Rover plaques on the fenders and priced well above the vehicles
> which they're copying may find substantial market resistance.
I seem to recall watching BBC's "Top Gear" program a while back, when
they commented that a distressing percentage of first model year
Freelander's were sold without working 4WD. The amusing bit was that
apparently (although TG may have taken a bit of poetic license) most
owners didn't notice.
Regards,
--
Sandy McClearn...Civil-Engineer-in-Training....smcclearn@hazegray.org
Haze Gray & Underway........Maritime History.........www.hazegray.org
Tall Ships/Foundation Maritime/Ship Tours..www.hazegray.org/features/
Canadian Naval History...............www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/
Alfred May
"Jim Herring" <mus...@bga.com> wrote in message
news:3CAA6169...@bga.com...
Ever think of trying your hand at genealogy? There's always the chance that
the two receipts have the same root...
Tom (wandering off whistling "Leaving of Liverpool")
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:a8bvtq$ls0$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
>
>>I suspect the main limits on the life of 4x4s there are
>> (a) mechanical wear-and-tear, which will kill anything in time and (b)
>A friend of mine is a sheep farmer up near Whitby. He tried one of the nice
>shiny Far Eastern 4x4s. He tells me the main problem is that some of the
>hoses/cables/bits pass under the chassis rather than, as on Land Rovers,
>passing over.
Oh. Bugger. That is not good (ob.smn: about as good an idea as running
control and power above the protective deck: Bismarck and Scharnhorst
refer[1]).
>This results in things like brake hoses and etc being ripped off on rocks
>and things where a Defender/Discovery just bumps the chassis.
One of our local coastguards went over a cliff south of here in his
Izuzu(?), having gone off-road to park. He survived, and ISTR the
report was that when he took the handbrake off the vehicle rolled forward
and the footbrake didn't work. Wonder if that might line up with what
your friend tells.
>I imagine the lifespan of nice shiny 4x4s in Afghanistan is fairly short,
>there seem to be a lot more rocks there than here in North Yorkshire...
Maybe they don't mind the lack of brakes.
[1] Eeek! B*ttl*sh*ps.
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
John Halliwell <jo...@photopia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>When I absolutely had to stop my 109 in a hurry, careful use of engine
>braking and very heavy pressure on the brake pedal, would stop it
>surprisingly quickly (but it never felt like that from the drivers
>seat). Only problem was the red glow of the oil light as all the oil
>rushed to the front of the engine.
Yours had the 2.6-litre six, right? I don't remember the oil-light
doing that on mine, but then it was both lubricated and cooled
by pretty much the same mayonaisse.
TMOliver
>
>
> I seem to recall watching BBC's "Top Gear" program a while
> back, when they commented that a distressing percentage of
> first model year Freelander's were sold without working 4WD.
> The amusing bit was that apparently (although TG may have
> taken a bit of poetic license) most owners didn't notice.
>
>
While being bored at the broker's, I picked up the new _Consumer
Reports_ ('merkin rag with some rep for objectivuty) in which
the Freelander was relatively unfavorable compared with a group
of similar "unibofy" small SUVs (and priced more than $5 grand
higher than the crowd).
The mag claimed that Freelander has been sold in UK since '97.
Did it go under that name?
TMO
BlackBeard
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>My feeble attempt to use my micro -knowledge word was a damp squib it seems.
>Maybe somebody can translate to get us both out of this soup.
>
>Thanks,
>Barry
nous: common Brit application... common sense, alertness.
I thought it was a stretch, but a defendable stretch...
B F Lake
> nous: common Brit application... common sense, alertness.
>
> I thought it was a stretch, but a defendable stretch...
>
> ;)
>
I had the notion it was a northern expression, perhaps by scousers. Maybe
someone can clarify? I wonder if they use nous-sticks on people trying to
speak their language?
Regards,
Barry
Eugene Griessel
Traces back to Greek where it means "the intellect" - in a
philosophical sense, that is.
Eugene L Griessel www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat History www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/guybook.html
"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because
they almost always turn out to be - or to be indistinguishable from - self-righteous
sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
Neil Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
Andrew McCruden
sci.military.naval
I have heard it, it is British slang from _SOMEWHERE_ but i can't
place whereabouts, don't think it was from Glasgow (if it were
i'd be fairly likely to remember it)
--
Andrew McCruden
"Sometimes we break the system, Sometimes the system breaks us"
Keith Willshaw
"Andrew McCruden" <use...@beyond-comprehension.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:Xns91E5B93189026se...@195.92.193.157...
> on 03 Apr 2002, "B F Lake" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in
> sci.military.naval
>
> > "BlackBeard" <Black...@middle.of.nowhere> wrote
> >
> >> nous: common Brit application... common sense, alertness.
> >>
> >> I thought it was a stretch, but a defendable stretch...
> >>
> >> ;)
> >>
> > I had the notion it was a northern expression, perhaps by
> > scousers. Maybe someone can clarify? I wonder if they use
> > nous-sticks on people trying to speak their language?
>
> I have heard it, it is British slang from _SOMEWHERE_ but i can't
> place whereabouts, don't think it was from Glasgow (if it were
> i'd be fairly likely to remember it)
>
I remember it being used in the North of England
occasionally and its fairly commonly used in Australia as I recall.
Keith
John Halliwell
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>Yours had the 2.6-litre six, right? I don't remember the oil-light
>doing that on mine, but then it was both lubricated and cooled
>by pretty much the same mayonaisse.
No it was the 4 pot 2.25, chucked oil out through the front when I
stopped, out the back when I moved, kept various bits of the chassis in
pretty good condition. Although the whole vehicle had been 'modified' by
previous owners to various levels, made trying to insure it lots of fun.
John Halliwell
<ol...@calpha.com> writes
>While being bored at the broker's, I picked up the new _Consumer
>Reports_ ('merkin rag with some rep for objectivuty) in which
>the Freelander was relatively unfavorable compared with a group
>of similar "unibofy" small SUVs (and priced more than $5 grand
>higher than the crowd).
There's a lot of Land Rover enthusiasts who disowned Freelander even
before it appeared, suggesting it wasn't a true Landie in any way shape
or form. I don't think I'd ever consider buying one.
>The mag claimed that Freelander has been sold in UK since '97.
>Did it go under that name?
I'm not sure when it became available, but '97 sounds roughly right.
Yes, it's known as Freelander in the UK, although the original launch
showed a very different vehicle than the majority of sales, a trendy
three door 'sports' version opposed to the five door 'station wagon'
type I usually see.
Matt Clonfero
The LSW, as in the heavy barrelled version of the L85? If so, no - it
was supposed to have been upgraded in the same process that generated
the L85A2.
Aetherem Vincere
Matt
--
To err is human
To forgive is not
Air Force Policy
Paul J. Adam
<Matt@[127.0.0.1]> writes
>In article <e1nkauonu6ophb7hs...@4ax.com>, Peter Kemp
><pk...@iee.org> wrote:
>>So does anyone definitively know if the LSW is history? I can't recall
>>seeing one for quite a while on the news, nor the published photos.
>>Nothing on the MOD websites though.
LSW's still around, though may be supplemented by Minimi.
>The LSW, as in the heavy barrelled version of the L85? If so, no - it
>was supposed to have been upgraded in the same process that generated
>the L85A2.
Similar big improvements in reliability, too.
Andy Spark
<shep...@bcs.org.uk> wrote:
> IIRC, the modern Land Rocer Defender which is supplied to HM Forces
> differs somewhat from the standard civilian vehicle. Judging by the
> number of them I see speeding past in the outside lane of the motorway,
> I'd say they're not lacking in performance. A little while ago I talked
> to a pongo who'd been on the selection team for the new Army 4x4. The
> reason they chose the Land Rover over the Humvee, the main contender,
> was that they were half the price, could go 9o or 95% of the places a
> Humvee could go, and if they dud get stuck could be hauled out by
> manpower (the Humvee being rather heavier requires another vehicle - or
> so I was told).
I don't think the Humvee can ever have been seriously considered by the
UK. It doesn't fit down most of our roads
Alan Minyard
wrote:
>In article <U$AlHbAq+...@photopia.demon.co.uk>,
>John Halliwell <jo...@photopia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <veehau83nl2emb6fn...@4ax.com>, Alan Minyard
>><amin...@netdoor.com> writes
>>>I suppose that I am atypical, but my off road vehicle of choice is an
>>>83 Jeep CJ-7 with a 400 cu in (6.5 ltr) chevy engine and appropriate
>>>tires, gears etc. If I set it up properly for the conditions (desert,
>>>mountain, mud, etc.) It will go darn near anywhere, and is a fine
>>>illustration of the fact that a truly tricked out 4-wd vehicle can get
>>>you stuck much farther from the nearest road.
>
>>Not only much further out, but also much better stuck.
>
>And, if you've got a really well-tricked-out 4x4 and you're doing really
>well, better stuck beyond the length of your winch cable.
>
>Reported quotes from Land-Rover's development driver (mid-80s, this):
>"Just so long as you remember that the badge on the front says 'Land
>Rover' and not 'Centurion'"
>
>and
>
>"Most problems off-road involve failure of the component between the
>steering wheel hub and the seat back"
Ah yes, that component of my Jeep has failed on numerous occasions :-)
Al Minyard
Andy Spark
<jo...@photopia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I always thought that was a design feature...
Did anyone else see that fab documentary on the history channel last
night on Rover gas turbine cars from the 40's annd 50's....?
Peter Skelton
BREEN) wrote:
>In article <U$AlHbAq+...@photopia.demon.co.uk>,
>John Halliwell <jo...@photopia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <veehau83nl2emb6fn...@4ax.com>, Alan Minyard
>><amin...@netdoor.com> writes
>>>I suppose that I am atypical, but my off road vehicle of choice is an
>>>83 Jeep CJ-7 with a 400 cu in (6.5 ltr) chevy engine and appropriate
>>>tires, gears etc. If I set it up properly for the conditions (desert,
>>>mountain, mud, etc.) It will go darn near anywhere, and is a fine
>>>illustration of the fact that a truly tricked out 4-wd vehicle can get
>>>you stuck much farther from the nearest road.
>
>>Not only much further out, but also much better stuck.
>
>And, if you've got a really well-tricked-out 4x4 and you're doing really
>well, better stuck beyond the length of your winch cable.
>
>Reported quotes from Land-Rover's development driver (mid-80s, this):
>"Just so long as you remember that the badge on the front says 'Land
>Rover' and not 'Centurion'"
>
>and
>
>"Most problems off-road involve failure of the component between the
>steering wheel hub and the seat back"
We get a little tired of hauling 4x4's out of the bog where
brainless twits have burried them. Mostly my old olds suffices
but sometimes the farmer's tractor is needed.
A good eye for ground makes more difference than the vehicle. So
does a clue about gas and brake.
____
Peter Skelton
B F Lake
> >and
> >
> >"Most problems off-road involve failure of the component between the
> >steering wheel hub and the seat back"
>
> We get a little tired of hauling 4x4's out of the bog where
> brainless twits have burried them. Mostly my old olds suffices
The higher your rubber boots the more of you that will get wet.
Regards,
Barry
Peter Skelton
wrote:
If they're high enough, a soaker will drown you. Think of it as
evolution in action, as the man said.
____
Peter Skelton
Stephen Shepherd
I meant to put, the *other* main contender. Chap I talked to was a Sergeant
Major - and yes, it was a contender to the point they were testing it out...
Andy Spark
<a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
> Depends on what you mean by "outperformed" - the only Land-Rover with
> the V8 that I've played with was the old 109" with the 90bhp version
> of the 3.5. Not a lot of top-end go, but it slogged away very happily
> at 1200-1800 rpm which was great for dealing with the muddy stuff (my
> 2.25 88" needed low-ratio third to do what the V8 was doing in
> high-ratio second (or even third!!!!), and was burning a *lot* more
> petrol than the V8 in the process. Land-Rover used to be pretty purist
> about tuning their engines (tuning the whole vehicle) for off-road
> use, whether this made it less car-like or not. The low-tune V8
> was a very nice thing for the off-road stuff we were using it for
> (we were shifting the booze and food for a party across a
> partially-flooded field, through a river which was in a
> rising state of flood and up a steep hill through a muddy wood to the
> cottage - Landys are very useful at times... :). Unfortunately we
> only had access to the V8 for a couple of trips.
ISTR the old "Stage1" Series III V8 goes a lot better if you just pull
the restrictor plates out of the inlet manifold
Malcolm
Shepherd writes
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
>>[snipped]
>Some colleagues of mine got an old RN Landy stuck in a huge, tank
derived,
>quagmire at Langmoor Army camp. Had to be towed out by a tracked
recovery
>vehicle. While they were waiting an Army Lynx came to have a look,
they
>said most embarrassing as the Landy was painted all blue with ROYAL
NAVY
>stencilled down the side.
>
>
Just before I left the RN I was tasked to drive a Landrover from
Plymouth to Aultbea (Scotland), to meet my ship. It was brand new
(about 400 miles on the clock when I picked it up from the dockyard
motor pool). The last stage of the trip, nvolved driving along miles of
single track road through glens and alongside Lochsi. The road had
"passing places", i.e. points at which it was slightly wider so that one
could pull over to let and on coming vehicle pass. I had just gone past
one of these when a car coming the other way decided to pull out of his
stopping place. No probs, I thought - there appeared to be a bit of a
hard shoulder, so I put the nearside wheels onto it. Problem was it was
actually some stones jammed in a gulley, and the weight of the landrover
dislodged them. Both offside wheels go into the gully, up to the axle,
and the side comes to rest against the rock face. No amount of juggling
with 4 wheel drive will get me out. The vehicle behind me came to the
rescue - it edged past, hooked a rope onto the front bumper, and pulled
me out (with much grinding of metal). The bumper was bent into the
tire, so had to be removed before I could go on my merry way. WE also
discovered that the chassis was twisted and the steering out of
alignment. The igmony of it was that the vehicle that pulled me out was
the Ross and Cromarty dust cart! .
The skippers face was a picture when I reported on board with the bumper
on my shoulder.... Cost of repairs - £975 (in 1968!). Cost to me -
lots of free drinks to the other Senior Rates and the officers.
--
Regards
Malcolm
www.tosd.demon.co.uk - HMS SOLEBAY and Battle class website.
I love to cook with wine: sometimes I even put it in the food.