Japanese troops head to Iraq
a000...@airmail.net
for Kuwait carrying eight light armored vehicles.
Total of 30 members of the JDSF for the first group.
Interestingly, it is being cast by some journalists as payback to keep
the US fully engaged in dealing with a nuclear armed North Korea.
This leads to 2 obvious views:
1 Are the Japanese (government I mean) worried that North Korea is so
unstable that they have to contemplatet a Tokyo for LA nuke exchange
equation (Nk nukes Tokyo, threatens to nuke LA if US retaliates)
2. or are they worried about the possibility of US action against NK
if they don't cut out the nuclear games they've been playing for the
last few years? Considering the claims about how stretched the US Army
is, I just don't see this scenario as really likely.
From what little I know, this is a VERY risky move for the Koizumi
government. Either Japan's economy is way worse than people think
(unlikely to me) or the stakes in that part of the world are very
serious to run a gamble of this magnitude. You could get some pretty
interesting wagering scenarios from British bookies on what would
happen politically in Japan if there are casualties in Iraq, combat
related or not.
Big political ramifications here. It would have been much more safe
policy wise to send a few Japanese ships to patrol in the Gulf, low
risk, show the flag, solidarity with the American's yada yada minimal
real danger.
Troops on ground? Serious business.
Steven James Forsberg
: From what little I know, this is a VERY risky move for the Koizumi
: government. Either Japan's economy is way worse than people think
: (unlikely to me) or the stakes in that part of the world are very
: serious to run a gamble of this magnitude. You could get some pretty
: interesting wagering scenarios from British bookies on what would
: happen politically in Japan if there are casualties in Iraq, combat
: related or not.
: Big political ramifications here. It would have been much more safe
: policy wise to send a few Japanese ships to patrol in the Gulf, low
: risk, show the flag, solidarity with the American's yada yada minimal
: real danger.
I would agree, most reports I've seen indicate that it is a risky
move. I'm not certain it is about specific items as much as it is about a
general belief that Japan's future (economic and otherwise) is forged to
that of the US, and that they might as well go 'all the way' on the
"In for a penny, in for a pound" theory. The pragmatists in Japan (i.e.
big business in particular) realize that for their nation, Middle East oil
is not a luxury (which it arguably is for the US) but rather their umbilical
cord. And the US, for better or worse, is the dominant power. The Japanese,
as before WWII, combine some great strengths with some great weaknesses.
So in Japan there is great disagreement between those who counsel for
becoming a "more active US ally" like the UK (I'll not say "lap dog" out of
respect for our Brit readers :-) ), and those who think it is time for
the "Japan that can say no" -- and to play cards like more intimate relations
with China in order to keep the US in place. Now, this is not like pre-
WWII where it is at an Oil Embargo/Pearl Harbor level of conflict. Rather,
it is a more subtle, but nonetheless key, game of international economic
gamesmanship (i.e. trade/interest/debts/IMF, etc.).
One danger, from a US perspective, is that there might indeed be a
popular backlash from the Japanese public that poisons US-Japanese relations
via the democratic process. This is one of the dangers of asking political
allies to venture out front with you -- ask Tony Blair how it sometimes feels
to champion US foreign policy. If he had fallen (I'm not saying it was likely,
just "if") it could have been a very major blow to US foreign policy in
general. I think there is a somewhat similar situation in Japan, where the
current government has decided that for now at least they must be more
obviously supportive of the US in order to gain US favor/tolerance, but the
danger is that if they are pushed one step too far a very contrary new
government will take place. In Japan some very popular and powerful
politicians are very critical of the US and Japan's role vis-a-vis the
US. While their views would probably mellow upon taking office, they would
nonetheless represent a possible sea-change in US-Japan relations.
My question: Is it really worth such a risk over a strictly
*symbolic* deployment? I don't think anyone thinks the limited Japanese
force will be the measure of success in Iraq. Rather, it seems to be a
rather desperate attempt to characterize the occupation as an "international"
vice a "US" operation. Such PR is largely aimed at the US citizenry, it is
a legitimate political goal for the administration but carries the risk
of SNAFUing relations in the Pacific. Hopefully the Japanese will keep their
heads down and Iraq will trend away from foreign-aimed violence.
regards,
-------------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu
Duke of URL
a000...@airmail.net <a000...@airmail.net> radiated into the
WorldWideWait:
> A Russian charter aircraft left Hokkaido in northern Japan on Friday
> for Kuwait carrying eight light armored vehicles.
> Total of 30 members of the JDSF for the first group.
> Interestingly, it is being cast by some journalists as payback to
> keep the US fully engaged in dealing with a nuclear armed North
> Korea. This leads to 2 obvious views:
> 1 Are the Japanese (government I mean) worried that North Korea is
> so unstable that they have to contemplatet a Tokyo for LA nuke
> exchange equation (Nk nukes Tokyo, threatens to nuke LA if US
> retaliates)
Nope. That doesn't equate, because DPRK doesn't have the capability to
nuke CONUS. And they know we would without hesitation (unless Nikita
Dean or Queen Hillary became POTUS) turn them into a firestorm if they
did that to Japan.
> 2. or are they worried about the possibility of US action against NK
> if they don't cut out the nuclear games they've been playing for the
> last few years? Considering the claims about how stretched the US
> Army is, I just don't see this scenario as really likely.
>
> From what little I know, this is a VERY risky move for the Koizumi
> government. Either Japan's economy is way worse than people think
> (unlikely to me) or the stakes in that part of the world are very
> serious to run a gamble of this magnitude.
You've got it right there - DPRK is a danger to everyone around them.
> You could get some pretty
> interesting wagering scenarios from British bookies on what would
> happen politically in Japan if there are casualties in Iraq, combat
> related or not.
>
> Big political ramifications here. It would have been much more safe
> policy wise to send a few Japanese ships to patrol in the Gulf, low
> risk, show the flag, solidarity with the American's yada yada
> minimal real danger.
> Troops on ground? Serious business.
Not combat troops AFAIK - support troops. Of course, they're capable
of protecting themselves.
Duke of URL
John A. Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
WorldWideWait:
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:40:09 -0600, "Duke of URL"
> <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote:
>> In news:kuce00hmiej7ufc2o...@4ax.com,
>> a000...@airmail.net <a000...@airmail.net> radiated into the
>> WorldWideWait:
>>
>>> A Russian charter aircraft left Hokkaido in northern Japan on
>>> Friday for Kuwait carrying eight light armored vehicles.
>>> Total of 30 members of the JDSF for the first group.
>>> Interestingly, it is being cast by some journalists as payback to
>>> keep the US fully engaged in dealing with a nuclear armed North
>>> Korea. This leads to 2 obvious views:
>>> 1 Are the Japanese (government I mean) worried that North Korea is
>>> so unstable that they have to contemplatet a Tokyo for LA nuke
>>> exchange equation (Nk nukes Tokyo, threatens to nuke LA if US
>>> retaliates)
>>
>> Nope. That doesn't equate, because DPRK doesn't have the
>> capability to nuke CONUS. And they know we would without
>> hesitation (unless Nikita Dean or Queen Hillary became POTUS) turn
>> them into a firestorm if they did that to Japan.
>
> using ICBM's. Think Fishing Boat.
Many thousands of miles across the Pacific in a fishing boat? I don't
think so.
Howard Berkowitz
Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:40:09 -0600, "Duke of URL"
> <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote:
>
> >In news:kuce00hmiej7ufc2o...@4ax.com,
> >a000...@airmail.net <a000...@airmail.net> radiated into the
> >WorldWideWait:
> >
> >> A Russian charter aircraft left Hokkaido in northern Japan on Friday
> >> for Kuwait carrying eight light armored vehicles.
> >> Total of 30 members of the JDSF for the first group.
> >> Interestingly, it is being cast by some journalists as payback to
> >> keep the US fully engaged in dealing with a nuclear armed North
> >> Korea. This leads to 2 obvious views:
> >> 1 Are the Japanese (government I mean) worried that North Korea is
> >> so unstable that they have to contemplatet a Tokyo for LA nuke
> >> exchange equation (Nk nukes Tokyo, threatens to nuke LA if US
> >> retaliates)
> >
> >Nope. That doesn't equate, because DPRK doesn't have the capability to
> >nuke CONUS. And they know we would without hesitation (unless Nikita
> >Dean or Queen Hillary became POTUS) turn them into a firestorm if they
> >did that to Japan.
>
> They do have that capability. you just have to stop thinking about
> using ICBM's. Think Fishing Boat.
*sigh* and Japan knows we have submarine deterrents against them.
Jack Linthicum
This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
constitution = nuclear weapons. That first step, as Mao noted, is a
precursor to a long journey. The offensive planning I have to feel is
there buried in the Japanese General Staff as it was in Germany
between the World Wars. The change in the constitution is a harder nut
to crack and may depend on the Emperor Akihito being able to see the
need for the future of the nation, which he personifies. Once the
constitution is amended to allow for an offensive form of defense,
brought on by the Defense Minister's beliefs that current Japanese
aircraft could not take out any North Korean offensive capability
without an element of suicide. The nuclear thing is probably also
sitting in somebody's safe waiting for the go ahead. Safety is there
for the acceptance, commitment is in the hands of the Emperor and his
advisors.
Gernot Hassenpflug
particular, the subtle economic gamesmanship. Oil from Iraq could be a
great boost to the ruling coalition in terms of economic recovery and
therefore votes. Any casualties in Iraq would have to be manipulated
by the media into more support for the fight against international
terrorism and, by extension, North Korea which has been played up a
lot in the media here over the last few years (priming). I worry about
a terrorist attack inside Japan, which I think the security is not
poised to foil. Such an attack would strengthen the government, and
make life for foreigners here far more difficult.
--
G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University
Jack Linthicum
On the question of local security against a terrorist attack when I
lived in Japan, admittedly 40 years ago, the corner policeman knew
who everyone was and what their relationship was with his community.
After the sarin attacks on the subway I would have thought that would
become even more intense and precise. Has the local cop as guardian of
the community idea gone? And, as a sort of accompanyment is there more
and better coordination of government agencies? This and the Kobe
earthquake were almost simultaneous so it would be difficult to change
between the two events, but....
http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Okumura.htm
Duke of URL
Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
WorldWideWait:
FLIJ should be able to tell us.
Brett Robson
>
>
> In Japan some very popular and powerful
>politicians are very critical of the US and Japan's role vis-a-vis the
>US.
really? what are their names?
>While their views would probably mellow upon taking office, they would
>nonetheless represent a possible sea-change in US-Japan relations.
>
The Liberal Democratic Party has been in power since the Pacific continuously
except for 2 years (?). Who are these people that would create a "sea change"?
.
----
someone who wants junk mail
in...@jpat.jp
Brett Robson
>
>This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
>the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
>constitution = nuclear weapons.
Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
>That first step, as Mao noted, is a
>precursor to a long journey.
That is strange logic. If you take a step, then you are walking a long way. That
isn't what Mao said.
>The offensive planning I have to feel is
>there buried in the Japanese General Staff as it was in Germany
>between the World Wars.
Japanese generals are quite happy staying at home, thank you very much.
>The change in the constitution is a harder nut
>to crack and may depend on the Emperor Akihito being able to see the
>need for the future of the nation, which he personifies.
If you think that the Showa Emporeror has any influence on Japanese politics or
policy you are very mistaken.
>Once the
>constitution is amended to allow for an offensive form of defense,
>brought on by the Defense Minister's beliefs that current Japanese
>aircraft could not take out any North Korean offensive capability
>without an element of suicide.
I'm not sure that is actually a sentence. What is your point exactly?
>The nuclear thing is probably also
>sitting in somebody's safe waiting for the go ahead. Safety is there
>for the acceptance, commitment is in the hands of the Emperor and his
>advisors.
What nuclear *thing* is in somebody's safe? There is a lot of missing plutomium,
is that what you mean?
Brett Robson
>
>I agree with aa00..., Stephen and Jack on the points they raised. In
>particular, the subtle economic gamesmanship. Oil from Iraq could be a
>great boost to the ruling coalition in terms of economic recovery and
>therefore votes.
You think that the Japanese public will vote for the LDP because they have
secured a new source of cheap fuel? One JSDF death will run in the press for
years.
Brett Robson
>
>On the question of local security against a terrorist attack when I
>lived in Japan, admittedly 40 years ago, the corner policeman knew
>who everyone was and what their relationship was with his community.
>After the sarin attacks on the subway I would have thought that would
>become even more intense and precise. Has the local cop as guardian of
>the community idea gone? And, as a sort of accompanyment is there more
>and better coordination of government agencies? This and the Kobe
>earthquake were almost simultaneous so it would be difficult to change
>between the two events, but....
3 million people go through Shinjuku station every day. Amazingly the police in
the local koban (police box) know everyone by name. The first day I travelled to
work a young policeman approached me and said we haven't met. We exchanged
meishi (business cards) and had a short importu tea ceremony on the floor
outside the Keio department store and now he greets me by name every morning (he
doesn't work in the afternoons when I am kaering).
Brett Robson
>
>A Russian charter aircraft left Hokkaido in northern Japan on Friday
>for Kuwait carrying eight light armored vehicles.
>Total of 30 members of the JDSF for the first group.
>Interestingly, it is being cast by some journalists as payback to keep
>the US fully engaged in dealing with a nuclear armed North Korea.
>This leads to 2 obvious views:
you mean "two obvious questions"
>
>From what little I know, this is a VERY risky move for the Koizumi
>government. Either Japan's economy is way worse than people think
>(unlikely to me) or the stakes in that part of the world are very
>serious to run a gamble of this magnitude.
nationalism might be a third reason, also extreme pressure from the US.
>Big political ramifications here.
A verb is required to make a sentence.
>It would have been much more safe [comma required here]
It would have been much more correct to say "It would have been much safer"
>policy wise to send a few Japanese ships to patrol in the Gulf,
no, you patrol the Gulf. Patrol for what?
>low
>risk, show the flag, solidarity with the American's yada yada minimal
>real danger.
"yada yada"? I'm not sure how the Japanese "yada" fits into that (non) sentence.
>Troops on ground? Serious business.
Obviously you thought long and hard about that.
Jack Linthicum
> On 16 Jan 2004 15:56:40 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
> >
> >This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
> >the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
> >constitution = nuclear weapons.
>
> Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
>
None of the wise ones, but http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/nuke/
>
> >That first step, as Mao noted, is a
> >precursor to a long journey.
>
> That is strange logic. If you take a step, then you are walking a long way. That
> isn't what Mao said.
>
Have you got that in the Chinese? "For a journey of 1000 miles,"
Chairman Mao is supposed to have said, "it is necessary to take the
first step".
>
> >The offensive planning I have to feel is
> >there buried in the Japanese General Staff as it was in Germany
> >between the World Wars.
>
> Japanese generals are quite happy staying at home, thank you very much.
>
>
http://www.egroups.co.jp/message/nomorewar/8663
> >The change in the constitution is a harder nut
> >to crack and may depend on the Emperor Akihito being able to see the
> >need for the future of the nation, which he personifies.
>
> If you think that the Showa Emporeror has any influence on Japanese politics or
> policy you are very mistaken.
>
Showa emperor is dead. The Heisei Emperor is the one who should make
decisions that will lead his people to a safe and wise future.
>
> >Once the
> >constitution is amended to allow for an offensive form of defense,
> >brought on by the Defense Minister's beliefs that current Japanese
> >aircraft could not take out any North Korean offensive capability
> >without an element of suicide.
>
> I'm not sure that is actually a sentence. What is your point exactly?
>
Check the bit about the JSDF buying tankers as posted above.
>
> >The nuclear thing is probably also
> >sitting in somebody's safe waiting for the go ahead. Safety is there
> >for the acceptance, commitment is in the hands of the Emperor and his
> >advisors.
>
> What nuclear *thing* is in somebody's safe? There is a lot of missing plutomium,
> is that what you mean?
>
No, I think the Japanese can arrive at a nuclear weapons program, as
outlined in my first cite above, within a year of initiation, probably
less if they are cheating now.
>
> .
>
I would get better prepared, making comments on the use of English in
a multinational NG is a quick way to find yourself killfiled.
Steven James Forsberg
:> In Japan some very popular and powerful
:>US.
: really? what are their names?
Well, a good one to start with is Shintaro Ishihara. A former cabinet
member, he was once pegged as a future PM. However, he got in a party fight
over policy issues and was 'cast out'. Recently, however, he won the
flagship Tokyo governor race against powerful competitors. According to
which polls you follow, he is the "most popular" politician in Japan, though
there is debate over whether this is due more to his policies or his direct
plainspoken manner. He is not taken lightly by anyone, in particular the
LDP party leadership that was once grooming him for PM. He may get that seat
yet.
And, not coincidentally, he was co-author of the book "The Japan
that Can say No", which has labeled an entire movement in Japanese politics.
:>While their views would probably mellow upon taking office, they would
:>nonetheless represent a possible sea-change in US-Japan relations.
:>
: The Liberal Democratic Party has been in power since the Pacific continuously
: except for 2 years (?). Who are these people that would create a "sea change"?
The LDP themselves. To quote professor Yasuaki Onuma of Tokyo
University, the LDP has always had a "reactionary view of history", and
has kept quiet and complacent on international policy in the past only
because it was seen as good policy. The end of the Soviet threat, and the
withering of serious communist/socialist opposition has strengthened their
hold on power -- and they feel made them less reliant on outside (i.e. US)
help. Within the LDP there is a growing feeling that Japan must no
now "assert herself" on the international stage and not just follow the
US lead. The 'traditional' party leaders, however, argue that now is not
the time to buck the trace.
Witness the debate over actions/words by PM Mori. Increasingly
politicians are using Japanese terms/words once used in conjunction with
the WWII Empire, and stridently arguing in public about the interpretation
of past events (the 'Rape' of Nanking, ethnic riots in Japan, etc.), and
once again highlighting the role of the emperor and shinto/militarist
tradition. In the 60s that kind of behavior was beyond the pale. Now it
is increasingly coming into the open.
regards,
--------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu
: .
Steven James Forsberg
:>This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
:>the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
:>constitution = nuclear weapons.
: Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
Several have. For example, Liberal Party president Ichiro Ozawa
warned that Japan could quickly build a large nuclear arsenal to curb
growing Chinese power. When his remarks were widely publicized, he said
they were 'distorted' but did not withdraw them.
In the July/Auguse '98 issue of "Foreign Affairs" former
Prime Minister Hosokawa warned likewise that Japan could (and would)
rapidly implement a nuclear arsenal if she felt it were necessary.
One argument is that if the US withdraws its 'unconditional' support
for Japan, Japan would "have to" go nuclear. On the other hand, there are
many who argue that by going nuclear, Japan would not NEED the unconditional
support of the US.
As a matter of law and policy, successive Japanese Prime Ministers
and foreign ministers have stated that Nuclear Weapons in and of themselves
are *not* a violation of the Japanese constitution nor any of her
international agreements, and that if Japan decides it can build nuclear
weapons legally (while complying with non-proliferation agreements, etc.).
regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------
sjfo...@bayou.uh.edu
Michael Cash
<macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> brought down from the Mount tablets inscribed:
>In news:7164002b.04011...@posting.google.com,
>Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
>WorldWideWait:
>
>> On the question of local security against a terrorist attack when I
>> lived in Japan, admittedly 40 years ago, the corner policeman knew
>> who everyone was and what their relationship was with his community.
>> After the sarin attacks on the subway I would have thought that
>> would become even more intense and precise. Has the local cop as
>> guardian of the community idea gone?
By and large, yes.
>>And, as a sort of
>> accompanyment is there more and better coordination of government
>> agencies?
By and large, no.
>>This and the Kobe earthquake were almost simultaneous so
>> it would be difficult to change between the two events, but....
>> http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Okumura.htm
>
>FLIJ should be able to tell us.
I wouldn't bet the rent on it.
--
Michael Cash
"While we thank you for considering our firm, regretfully we have no openings
for a person of your educational background and are returning your resume.
Despite what your academic advisor may have told you, there are, to the best
of our knowledge, no openings in our industry for a person with a degree in
farm ecology."
Dr. Seymore Butts
Human Resources
Acme Pharmeceuticals, Inc.
a000...@airmail.net
>
>"yada yada"? I'm not sure how the Japanese "yada" fits into that (non) sentence.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
Nice grammar slam fool.
It's not Japanese you pr*ck.
Get a life.
Gernot Hassenpflug
Jack Linthicum
I picked up on Mr. Ozawa after I posted. I think his most telling
point, one picked up by the Chinese (see Peoples Daily), is that..."
in fact, Japan has sufficient plutonium already for more than 7000
nuclear warheads. Currently, Japan has a stockpile of over 38,000
kilograms of plutonium, of which more than 5,000kg is stored at
various sites around the country. The largest stock of its plutonium
of around 31,000kg is currently stored in France and the UK. This is
to be shipped back over the next 10 to 15 years. In total Japan is
expected to have more than 45,000kg of plutonium by around 2006-10.
This will be even larger if a new plutonium reprocessing plant
currently under construction at Rokkasho-mura in northern Japan is
completed and operated. The Rokkasho plant is scheduled to produce as
much as 100,000kg plutonium during the first fifteen years of
operation. In total Japan would have more plutonium than is contained
in all United States nuclear warheads. It takes as little as 5kg of
this plutonium to make one nuclear weapon. " quote is from a
Greenpeace site. There are people who think that Japan has become some
sort of hedonistic pleasure-culture and has no party or faction that
looks to the old Imperial power. None of those people are Chinese and
I hope very few are Korean.
Ryan Ginstrom
news:100ipdn...@corp.supernews.com...
> In news:7164002b.04011...@posting.google.com,
> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
> > guardian of the community idea gone?
Pretty much. They are still trying, though. There are a few police boxes
that the police officer and his family live in. The cop doesn't have to pay
rent, so it kind of reminds me of programs in the US that pay cops
bonuses/subsidize loans if they will live in the areas they patrol.
Also, the cops kind of make the rounds of the neighborhood door to door
every once in a while, apparently mostly to get to know everybody's faces
(and maybe who belongs and doesn't belong in the neighborhood). I had one
over about 6 months ago.
As a way to kind of get an idea of how cops operate here, a foreign woman
once showed me a note the police had left on her windshield, wondering what
it said (It said: "Please don't park your car on the street with your window
down and your purse on the front seat, as it invites crime.")
One thing you don't see a lot of is patrolling, or even much of a cop
presence on the streets. But there are police boxes everywhere, so at least
you know where to drop off that lost wallet you found.
> And, as a sort of
> > accompanyment is there more and better coordination of government
> > agencies?
I would say no.
---
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
Fred J. McCall
:Currently, Japan has a stockpile of over 38,000
:kilograms of plutonium, of which more than 5,000kg is stored at
:various sites around the country. The largest stock of its plutonium
:of around 31,000kg is currently stored in France and the UK. This is
:to be shipped back over the next 10 to 15 years. In total Japan is
:expected to have more than 45,000kg of plutonium by around 2006-10.
:This will be even larger if a new plutonium reprocessing plant
:currently under construction at Rokkasho-mura in northern Japan is
:completed and operated. The Rokkasho plant is scheduled to produce as
:much as 100,000kg plutonium during the first fifteen years of
:operation. In total Japan would have more plutonium than is contained
:in all United States nuclear warheads.
Yes, but you lose sight of WHY Japan has all this plutonium. The
Japanese nuclear power industry, which provides much of their
electricity, is on what is called 'the plutonium cycle'. It is
essentially the ONLY path toward energy self-sufficiency that is
available to Japan.
Note that the United States made the decision back in the 1960s that
we would NOT go on the plutonium cycle. It's why we have all that
high level waste sitting in cooling ponds.
:It takes as little as 5kg of
:this plutonium to make one nuclear weapon. " quote is from a
:Greenpeace site.
You shouldn't get your weapon physics from Greenpeace.
[Actually, it can be done with significantly LESS than 5 kg of
material.]
:There are people who think that Japan has become some
:sort of hedonistic pleasure-culture and has no party or faction that
:looks to the old Imperial power. None of those people are Chinese and
:I hope very few are Korean.
But the question is whether the Japanese people are willing to
essentially 'turn out the lights' to build a bunch of bombs, so that
they can sit in the dark and feel powerful.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Paul J. Adam
<macbenahATkdsiDOTnet@?.?.invalid> writes
>In news:uh1g001j81p5jho2d...@4ax.com,
>John A. Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
>WorldWideWait:
>> using ICBM's. Think Fishing Boat.
>
>Many thousands of miles across the Pacific in a fishing boat? I don't
>think so.
Trawlers can cross oceans... and so do shipping containers.
If a nuclear weapon ever does hit a US city, and I most sincerely hope
one doesn't... I'll wager it won't arrive by missile.
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill
Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
Duke of URL
Paul J. Adam <ne...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk> radiated into the
WorldWideWait:
> In message <100gfjb...@corp.supernews.com>, Duke of URL
> <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet@?.?.invalid> writes
>> In news:uh1g001j81p5jho2d...@4ax.com,
>> John A. Stovall <johnas...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
>> WorldWideWait:
>>> They do have that capability. you just have to stop thinking about
>>> using ICBM's. Think Fishing Boat.
>>
>> Many thousands of miles across the Pacific in a fishing boat? I
>> don't think so.
>
> Trawlers can cross oceans... and so do shipping containers.
> If a nuclear weapon ever does hit a US city, and I most sincerely
> hope one doesn't... I'll wager it won't arrive by missile.
Yeah. For some reason, I was thinking of the ones like the Gulf Boats
off Louisiana. I forgot all about the huge ones.
Jack Linthicum
Thanks Gernot, he needed that.
For those who want to expand their knowledge of the general subject of
where Japan may or may not be going militarily:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/international/asia/18TOKY.html
ozawa
http://www.iht.com/articles/105137.html
us pressure on Japan to arm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/missile/
icbm capability
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/missile/FBIS-EAS-96-227.htm
Nisohachi Hyodo's 1996 article
http://marketing.cob.vt.edu/evans/Marketing%20moments.htm#french
Nisohachi Hyodo is the former bad boy in favor of nuclear weapons for
Japan.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke.htm
nuclear weapons capability
Gernot Hassenpflug
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:52:17 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug <g...@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> Bad temper ?
Not at all, just removing useless postings from visibility.
> I think it makes sence the Japs try to get out of the
> military dillemma they are now in.
Agreed, my view too. But not for the large business and political
leaders. From a practical point of view (present economy) it makes
sense to sacrifice security (no Iraq troops) for economic concessions.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> "Duke of URL" <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:100ipdn...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In news:7164002b.04011...@posting.google.com,
>> Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> radiated into the
>> > would become even more intense and precise. Has the local cop as
>> > guardian of the community idea gone?
>
> Pretty much. They are still trying, though. There are a few police boxes
> that the police officer and his family live in. The cop doesn't have to pay
> rent, so it kind of reminds me of programs in the US that pay cops
> bonuses/subsidize loans if they will live in the areas they patrol.
I was amazed and pleasantly surprised by the postings by people here
of their experiences in Shinjuku etc. with regard to the community
involvement of Japanese policement. I have never experienced this in
my area of Kyoto, or Uji. Possibly some Kansai joke that I need to
figure out! That said, the police are very polite here, given that
they have pretty absolute powers of questioning.
Declan Murphy
> "Duke of URL" <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote in message
> news:100ipdn...@corp.supernews.com...
> Also, the cops kind of make the rounds of the neighborhood door to door
> every once in a while, apparently mostly to get to know everybody's faces
> (and maybe who belongs and doesn't belong in the neighborhood). I had one
> over about 6 months ago.
YMMV of course. Haven't had one visit me yet since I moved here 9 years
ago. Whereas when I lived in Gunma a copper visited me within 3 weeks of
my moving there. Same when I was in Sapporo. When in Osaka though I
think they were too busy to notice.
> One thing you don't see a lot of is patrolling, or even much of a cop
> presence on the streets. But there are police boxes everywhere, so at least
> you know where to drop off that lost wallet you found.
Except that with each of the last 6 or so police boxes I've visited (2
in Okazaki, 1 in each of Takayama, Nara (city), Niigata (city) and
somewhere in bumfuck Wakayama they have been unattended. I'm not sure
what people do if they don't have the language skills required for the
telephone provided. As for patrolling, I've never seen a cop walk the
beat in Aichi, though at least a couple cycling the beat in nishi-shinjuku.
--
I am not who I think I am
I am not who you think I am
I am who I think you think I am
...or some such shite.
Ryan Ginstrom
"Declan Murphy" <declan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:400B477...@hotmail.com...
> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
> > "Duke of URL" <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote in message
> > news:100ipdn...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Also, the cops kind of make the rounds of the neighborhood door to door
> > every once in a while, apparently mostly to get to know everybody's
faces
> > (and maybe who belongs and doesn't belong in the neighborhood). I had
one
> > over about 6 months ago.
>
> YMMV of course. Haven't had one visit me yet since I moved here 9 years
> ago. Whereas when I lived in Gunma a copper visited me within 3 weeks of
> my moving there. Same when I was in Sapporo. When in Osaka though I
> think they were too busy to notice.
I've had 2 visits over the course of 5 or 6 years. I really couldn't see the
point either time, except to just get an idea of who was around on their
beat. But then, I have lived in areas of Japan far more bumfucked that
Okazaki/et al. So maybe my experience is the Japanese equivalent of Maybury.
---
Regards,
Ryan Ginstrom
cc
"Declan Murphy" <declan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Ryan Ginstrom wrote:
> > Also, the cops kind of make the rounds of the neighborhood door to door
> > every once in a while, apparently mostly to get to know everybody's
faces
> > (and maybe who belongs and doesn't belong in the neighborhood). I had
one
> > over about 6 months ago.
>
> YMMV of course. Haven't had one visit me yet since I moved here 9 years
> ago. Whereas when I lived in Gunma a copper visited me within 3 weeks of
> my moving there. Same when I was in Sapporo. When in Osaka though I
> think they were too busy to notice.
Busy in Osaka ? They seem to be very hima around here. But they never
visited me or other gaigins I know directly. Usually, they interrogate the
neighbours about us (or is it the contrary ?).
Today, I have received the visit of a false cop. Anyone else had that ? The
guy was wearing a uniform, identification card, etc. He obviously had tried
to reach me for weeks when I was in holidays. Today he rang 5 or 6 times (I
don't open to people that don't announce themselves), and tonight at 10 p.m.
he came again. So I opened to get rid of him. He was like glue. At least
half an hour in the genkan before I could slam the door on him. The pretext
was to check if my door's lock was OK and to sell me some Inspector Gadget
lock that would be "taped" on my door, with remote control + his service for
3000 yen/month. I don't know the price to never hear about him again.
Is it normal they visit you without invitation and "harass" you till you
open the door ?
In France, when a guy like that visits you, it's like when the Gipsies draw
something on your wall, you can expect a burglary in a near future. I have
nothing interesting for thiefs, no problem if they take away old horrors,
I'd like to have more space to buy new stuff. But I don't like the idea of
strangers getting in here. So now I have an unpleasant feeling.
CC
Duke of URL
cc <cpasune...@spam.com> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
> Today, I have received the visit of a false cop. Anyone else had
> that ? The guy was wearing a uniform, identification card, etc.
I can't believe that your *real* cops wouldn't be delighted to snatch
him up. Did you call them?
cc
"Duke of URL" <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote in message
> > Today, I have received the visit of a false cop. Anyone else had
> > that ? The guy was wearing a uniform, identification card, etc.
>
> I can't believe that your *real* cops wouldn't be delighted to snatch
> him up. Did you call them?
No. So far, except rudeness and suspiscion, I have nothing to reproach him.
When I say "false cop", I don't mean he is usurpating the identity of
official police. His appearance is just misleading. You could think he is
one from a few meters away (until you open the door...). On his uniform and
identification, it's written æ–°æ—¥è¦, not really è¦å¯Ÿ but that's close enough
to hesitate. æ–°æ—¥è¦ is just the name of his business. He told me, but not at
the start, only after I asked a dozen of questions.
In my country that wouldn't be allowed to name your company that way and get
a uniform so ressembling, I know people that had to modify their company's
name and logo for 1/1000th of that. But we're in Japan. Lies are not sins. I
have worked with guys that desguise themselves in bishop to celebrate
marriages (on their days off), OL that desguise in doctors and call each
other "sensei" to sell eikaiwa, businesses that take a name similar to their
main competitors to get their customers, etc. That would be one more.
CC
.
Brett Robson
>
>
>"Duke of URL" <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote in message
>
>> > Today, I have received the visit of a false cop. Anyone else had
>> > that ? The guy was wearing a uniform, identification card, etc.
>>
>> I can't believe that your *real* cops wouldn't be delighted to snatch
>> him up. Did you call them?
>
>No. So far, except rudeness and suspiscion, I have nothing to reproach him.
>When I say "false cop", I don't mean he is usurpating the identity of
>official police. His appearance is just misleading. You could think he is
>one from a few meters away (until you open the door...). On his uniform and
>identification, it's written æ–°æ—¥è¦, not really è¦å¯Ÿ but that's
>close enough
>to hesitate. æ–°æ—¥è¦ is just the name of his business. He told me, but not
>at
>the start, only after I asked a dozen of questions.
Spare a thought for the Royal Australian Airforce. Their uniform is so plain and
boring they look like taxi drivers, in fact bus drivers have a more impressive
uniform.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> Today, I have received the visit of a false cop. Anyone else had that ? The
> Is it normal they visit you without invitation and "harass" you till you
> open the door ?
> In France, when a guy like that visits you, it's like when the Gipsies draw
Not the first time this has been reported, last year on the news
several such stories made the rounds (now I have no TV, so I don't
know if the worsening economy has made such scams multiply). If you
live on say the 3rd floor I could suggest undressing him over the
balcony to look for the `true mark' - maybe he was not even
Japanese. At the very least I would report this to the local cops, who
should take notice, since yours will not have been an isolated
case. The ID number on the guys' card might have been useful for
that....
Rafael Caetano
> Spare a thought for the Royal Australian Airforce. Their uniform is so
> plain and boring they look like taxi drivers,
Don't they complain? I mean, the taxi drivers.
Rafael Caetano
Steve Richter
> :>
> :>the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
> :>constitution = nuclear weapons.
>
> : Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
>
> Several have. For example, Liberal Party president Ichiro Ozawa
> warned that Japan could quickly build a large nuclear arsenal to curb
> growing Chinese power. When his remarks were widely publicized, he said
> they were 'distorted' but did not withdraw them.
> In the July/Auguse '98 issue of "Foreign Affairs" former
> Prime Minister Hosokawa warned likewise that Japan could (and would)
> rapidly implement a nuclear arsenal if she felt it were necessary.
> One argument is that if the US withdraws its 'unconditional' support
> for Japan, Japan would "have to" go nuclear. On the other hand, there are
> many who argue that by going nuclear, Japan would not NEED the unconditional
> support of the US.
I cant imagine the US nuking China, Korea or Russia in response to one
of those countries nuking Japan.
I dont like it, but I cant make a case for Japan not being safe with
its policy of non defence. Other than North Korea, none of Japan's
neighbors would benefit from intimidating or attacking Japan.
Not having read this thread, I think Japan is sending troops to Iraq
simply to enhance its commercial interests in the area.
-Steve
Dott. Piergiorgio
> Currently, Japan has a stockpile of over 38,000
> kilograms of plutonium, of which more than 5,000kg is stored at
> various sites around the country. The largest stock of its plutonium
> of around 31,000kg is currently stored in France and the UK. This is
> to be shipped back over the next 10 to 15 years. In total Japan is
> expected to have more than 45,000kg of plutonium by around 2006-10.
> This will be even larger if a new plutonium reprocessing plant
> currently under construction at Rokkasho-mura in northern Japan is
> completed and operated. The Rokkasho plant is scheduled to produce as
> much as 100,000kg plutonium during the first fifteen years of
> operation. In total Japan would have more plutonium than is contained
> in all United States nuclear warheads. It takes as little as 5kg of
> this plutonium to make one nuclear weapon.
This is a *REALLY* worrying thing.
If Japan start building nukes, and is already on the road to rebuilding the
CV force of yore, there's very little space to avoid a second, more wicked
Pacific War whose have the same effect of the feared Big Mistake Three and
surely end with one of the two countries reduced to a glass parking lot
(i'm near sure that will be the the Japan) and the other in big shambles.
And the devastation of the two largest economy in the world will lead to
very interesting and bad time for the rest of the world..... :((((((((
Best regards from Italy.
--
Dott. Piergiorgio d' Errico- Naval and military historian
Niitakayama nobore ichi ni rei ya
cc
"Gernot Hassenpflug" <g...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>At the very least I would report this to the local cops, who
> should take notice, since yours will not have been an isolated
> case. The ID number on the guys' card might have been useful for
> that....
As I didn't sign and let him settle the lock imediatly (?!), he gave me his
meishi and phone number. It's Susumu-kun, his nickname is Anshin-kun.
I've just seen my landlord. He's also got the visit of that character and
has already told him to get lost several times. He thinks he guy does
nothing more than renting his toy lock to naive bachans.
CC
Duke of URL
Rafael Caetano <rcae...@yahoo.com> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
> Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
They probably just live with it. After all, the Greyhound drivers
didn't get all upset over the USAF copying their uniform.
Jack Linthicum
Japan is faced with some very hard decisions, their economy is not in
great shape, they have some very push neighbors who think that a
pacifist Japan is also an object for bullying. Given the past of the
Japanese this will probably not go unanswered.
The fact that Hyodo has gone from a far fringe nut case to spokesman
for a national policy option in seven years is probably the most
disturbing. But faced with their problems, given the solutions seem
perhaps as dangerous as maintaining the status quo, the Japanese will
come up with answers. The answers may not suit anyone, Japanese,
American, Chinese or Korean (both) but need to be made.
The JSDF already skirts the sense of the Constitution, the force sent
to Iraq probably bent it in 1992 and will conceivably break it now.
Four Aegis destroyers and the accompanying missiles are purely stop
gap. Hyodo's answer in 1996 was SLBMs carried two to a boat, with six
boats to cover all the enemies, existing and potential. US was in that
group. The helo carriers and any development of offensive capability
in long-range aircraft and tanker support will generate opposition in,
minimum, China and Korea.
A ballistic missile program either sea-borne or land mobile seems
almost ludicrous. The idea of a a mobile missile system on Japan's
roads with their driving habits is scarier than North Korea's
potential for trouble. But you know that if Japan is pushed it will
respond and that stockpile of plutonium and the capability of the
Japanese research establishment is a certain tripwire for people like
China and Korea.
Let us hope than China and North Korea can see that trip wire and not
step on it.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> I cant imagine the US nuking China, Korea or Russia in response to one
> of those countries nuking Japan.
Yeah, me neither.
> I dont like it, but I cant make a case for Japan not being safe with
> its policy of non defence. Other than North Korea, none of Japan's
> neighbors would benefit from intimidating or attacking Japan.
Agreed, Japan is stuck in a crapshoot: with the govt. unwilling to
engage Asia as equals, but also not able to dominate it without the
US.
> Not having read this thread, I think Japan is sending troops to Iraq
> simply to enhance its commercial interests in the area.
You have read enough, obviously :-)
Gernot Hassenpflug
> A ballistic missile program either sea-borne or land mobile seems
> almost ludicrous. The idea of a a mobile missile system on Japan's
> roads with their driving habits is scarier than North Korea's
> potential for trouble.
If you drive in Japan, and notice a good road, ask yourself when it
was built. I have found that all these roads were built pre-BM2 by the
military, in fact the entire area the roads were in used to be
military zones for factories, depots etc, so they could build the best
without regard to civilian homes.
The differences between Japan and the West are still now as they were
then: human life is fairly cheap, so crazy policies are not as crazy
here as they would be in the West. Sadly....
Dott. Piergiorgio
> The differences between Japan and the West are still now as they were
> then: human life is fairly cheap, so crazy policies are not as crazy
> here as they would be in the West. Sadly....
I agree on this; but also discussing this topic in an Italian NG someone
point to me that Japanese people of today, esp. the younger, are more
individualistic today than in the old days. What do you think, based on
your observation on the field ?
Dan Timmins
> Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
>
> > The differences between Japan and the West are still now as they were
> > then: human life is fairly cheap, so crazy policies are not as crazy
> > here as they would be in the West. Sadly....
>
> I agree on this; but also discussing this topic in an Italian NG someone
> point to me that Japanese people of today, esp. the younger, are more
> individualistic today than in the old days. What do you think, based on
> your observation on the field ?
>
> Best regards from Italy.
I believe you guys are missing out on some essential characteristics
of modern Japan: in polls, the Japanese populace *overwhelmingly*
opposes militarism, or even actions that have the *appearance* of
militarism. Take note of the bitter and acrimonious debate in the
Diet over dispatching Self Defence Forces *anywhere*, even on a
peacekeeping mission. Take note of the fact that the Japanese
populace is opposed to even calling its military a "military", but
rather refers to it as "Self-Defence Forces". Take note of the fact
that Japanese Self Defence Forces are forbidden *by law* to practice
offensive maneuvers. Take note of the fact that every schoolchild in
Japan is taught intensively the horrors of nuclear weapons, and the
fact that Japan is the only country to have experienced them
firsthand. Take note of the fact that not only does the Japanese
populace overwhelmingly (close to 90%) oppose any form of nuclear
weapon, it also opposes any U.S. ships armed with nuclear weapons
docking in a Japanese port. (this often provokes outraged civil
demonstrations).
Moreover, modern Japan is a peaceful, liberal, democratic nation, with
a heavy reliance on foreign trade, and which hence has a lot more to
gain from peace than from war. Cliches and stereotypes such as that
"life is cheap" for the Japanese insult the intelligence of anyone who
believes in the uniqueness of the individual. Although Japan, like
any modern nation, has its share of "crazies", the overwhelming,
empirically provable sentiment of its people is against war,
militarism, and military expenditures.
Dott. Piergiorgio
>
> Moreover, modern Japan is a peaceful, liberal, democratic nation, with
> a heavy reliance on foreign trade, and which hence has a lot more to
> gain from peace than from war.
Without hostility, a little advice: please remove a moment your pink
glasses.
Duke of URL
Gernot Hassenpflug <g...@nospam.com> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
(Steve Richter) writes:
>
>> I cant imagine the US nuking China, Korea or Russia in response to
>> one of those countries nuking Japan.
>
> Yeah, me neither.
I (partially) disagree. It would depend on the situation at the time.
If Japan was in one of its cycles of "F*ck over the Gaijins" again,
then they wouldn't have a lot of sympathy. OTOH, if they were in the
decent world-citizen mode, I think we would be delighted to melt a few
large PLA/PLAN bases into glowing glass. Or the DPRK.
But I can't see any possible realistic situation where the CIS would
want to kill Japan.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> Dan Timmins wrote:
>
>>
>> Moreover, modern Japan is a peaceful, liberal, democratic nation, with
>> a heavy reliance on foreign trade, and which hence has a lot more to
>> gain from peace than from war.
>
> Without hostility, a little advice: please remove a moment your pink
> glasses.
Ooh, lovely! Indeed, rose-colored spectacles there. The statements Dan
lists are all true, but not the interpretation he gives them. Dan, the
most beautiful enka love songs contain lines like 'let's die together'
(suicide), which are supposed to awaken true feelings of love in the
partner. Tell me that says `life is worht more than death' :-)
I have several philosophis regarding Japan, some good, some bad. There
are many things I admire about the Japanese way of life. They are
pragmatic, ruthless when necessary (especially the women, though that
does not make them special!), and the politicians have learnt well the
lessons from their teacher China of the millenia - how to keep control
of the country. They have not chosen to deal well with the outside
world, in my opinion (gawd, how much further off-topic can this
get...!), and the status-quo and hierarchy rule supreme (with isolated
cases to prove the rule). There is a well-established custom of
`internal consumption' regarding foreigners, I believe that Japanese
still do not grasp the essence of Western technology (use, yes, but
not extrapolation and understanding of the Western ideas associated
with it), and the teachers don't teach!!! (Arrgh!)
On the other hand, I believe that the Japanese manner of choosing
words that are meant to transmit a certain feeling, where that feeling
is the message, is something as much a part of our humanity as the
realm of reason established in the West. Just as Japanese are
prefectly capable of rational thought when properly taught, so
Westerners can learn something that Japanese people are brought up to
believe is a natural part of their interaction with others.
I beat my head against a wall for years trying to do research here,
always finding the `the Japanese culture interferes and hinders
Western research', until I figures how to get the results I want by
doing things in a mixture of Japanese and Western manner. Hard work,
but good fun in the end. There are many talented people here, just as
elsewhere.
So don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Japanese, but I have to agree
with Piergiorgio (though perhaps not so pessimistically!), Japan is
NOT what you think it is.
Jack Linthicum
Do they still have very violent animes, is there a 'war goods' store
in Kanda, is there a large contingent of deputies who find their way
into Yasakuni on various 'days', is there/are there think tanks that
study violent war but don't ever seem to publish for open ditribution,
do the student groups march, uniformed, to events and points of
interest, is there someone at one of the metalurgical institutes
(there's one in Hiroshima, by the way) studying the means of machining
very heavy metals, is the new concept of Ozawa's group enough to get
them elected next time around, etc, etc.???
Duke of URL
Louise Bremner
No, no... for a full, detailed discussion of this, you need to
cross-post to sci.culture.japan (not the moderated subgroup, BTW), not
to fli-j. Note that I have re-set the followup.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Gernot Hassenpflug
Nice work! Now we've pushed the OT deep into lala land. Maybe
something naval will turn up (hopeful prayer). To start, what's your
bets about when the ski-jump will appear in published drawings for the
new DDH design?
a000...@airmail.net
wrote:
What would they fly off them that needs a ski jump?
Dott. Piergiorgio
> To start, what's your
> bets about when the ski-jump will appear in published drawings for the
> new DDH design?
If they copy the Italian Garibaldi half-scam, well after the ships was laid
down.
I'll propose another Naval bet: what name they will have ? I bet Hosho and
Ryujo, wchich will be nicely translated into "Experimentation" and
"training". Surely the follow-up class (whose, if I have understand
correctly will be enough larger and of 5-6 ships) will have more mean names
(at least for US ears).
Nest regards from Italy.
Dott. Piergiorgio
Self-reply because I have incorrect posted the F/up. Please reply to this
post and not the other (whose is more IT here in s.m.n.)
Andrew McCruden
> Dott. Piergiorgio wrote:
>
<snip>
> Surely the follow-up class (whose, if I have understand
> > correctly will be enough larger and of 5-6 ships) will have more mean
> > names (at least for US ears).
> >
Is that based on anything other than specualtion? 5 -6 ships even ones as
small as the Garibaldi would be a _massive_ increase in combat power of the
JMSDF, not to mention that that effectively escorting many would completely
tie up _all_ the JMSDF's AAW ships, so would require an increase in numbers
unless the existing taskings of those DDG's go away, tyhen theres UNREP
requirement increases, training demand increases, the Air Groups. All in all
you'd be looking at about a 30-60% expansion in crews and cash.
2-3 such ships in the range of Garibaldi or Invincible _might_ be possible,
as they could probably be integrated into the existing force rather than
require its re-organisation arround them (even perhaps realistic if Japan is
serious about being able to secure its Martime Supply lanes) buit IMO 6
would be an almost unbelievable shift.
Dott. Piergiorgio
> Is that based on anything other than specualtion? 5 -6 ships even ones as
> small as the Garibaldi would be a massive increase in combat power
I get this fact in an earlier thread about Japanese "DDH" I don't remenber
the original poster, but surely is one of the qualified poster of our NG,
because if not so, I don't have accepted the fact.
Best regards from Italy.
P.s. If someone has posted a reply to my identical post erroneously set to
f/up in fjlj please repost here, because i don't follow fjlj.
Brett Robson
That wouldn't be a DDH then would it?
CAPT B A ROBSON, RASIGS, BSC, OA, CCNA
>--
>G Hassenpflug RASC, Kyoto University
----
Brett Robson
>
>:>
>:> In Japan some very popular and powerful
>:>politicians are very critical of the US and Japan's role vis-a-vis the
>:>US.
>
>: really? what are their names?
>
> Well, a good one to start with is Shintaro Ishihara.
Ishihara is the governor of Tokyo. Whatever he may write about international
affairs and whatever his illusions about his position in the world his primary
responsibility involves collecting rubbish.
>A former cabinet
>member, he was once pegged as a future PM.
past tense.
However, he got in a party fight
>over policy issues and was 'cast out'. Recently, however, he won the
>flagship Tokyo governor race against powerful competitors. According to
>which polls you follow, he is the "most popular" politician in Japan, though
>there is debate over whether this is due more to his policies or his direct
>plainspoken manner. He is not taken lightly by anyone, in particular the
>LDP party leadership that was once grooming him for PM. He may get that seat
>yet.
> And, not coincidentally, he was co-author of the book "The Japan
>that Can say No", which has labeled an entire movement in Japanese politics.
Perhaps you have the good fortune to read/listen to translations of him. As
rambling and incoherent as these are, the original material in Japanese is
almost impossible to follow.
If you have actually read "The Japan that Can say No" in either English or
Japanese, you would know that he devolts a chapter to the fact that Japan built
64Mbyte RAM when the US could only build 32Mbyte RAM. He thought huge
technological advantage which rendered the US impotent. (If you know anything
about Japan's strategic position you'd know Japan can never say "no". Hence
Japanese troops in Iraq.)
Ishihara can't even deal with the urban crow population let alone his own
budget. The man is a buffoon and widely recognized as such. He will be PM when I
shit golden eggs.
> The LDP themselves. To quote professor Yasuaki Onuma of Tokyo
>University, the LDP has always had a "reactionary view of history", and
>has kept quiet and complacent on international policy in the past only
>because it was seen as good policy. The end of the Soviet threat, and the
>withering of serious communist/socialist opposition has strengthened their
>hold on power -- and they feel made them less reliant on outside (i.e. US)
>help. Within the LDP there is a growing feeling that Japan must no
>now "assert herself" on the international stage and not just follow the
>US lead. The 'traditional' party leaders, however, argue that now is not
>the time to buck the trace.
Prof Onuma can crap on all he likes, but until Japan discovers oil in Chubu,
massive mineral reserves in Kyushu, and some way to economically *double* their
food production Japan will remain (in colloqial terms) America's Bitch.
> Witness the debate over actions/words by PM Mori.
Mori ascended to power based on lies. Exactly how long was he PM?
> Increasingly
>politicians are using Japanese terms/words once used in conjunction with
>the WWII Empire, and stridently arguing in public about the interpretation
>of past events (the 'Rape' of Nanking, ethnic riots in Japan, etc.), and
>once again highlighting the role of the emperor and shinto/militarist
>tradition. In the 60s that kind of behavior was beyond the pale. Now it
>is increasingly coming into the open.
>
Perhaps you could provide links to the original sources of these? In Japanese of
course.
.
Brett Robson
>
>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote in message
>news:<buc07...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>> On 16 Jan 2004 15:56:40 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
>> >
>> >This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
>> >the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
>> >constitution = nuclear weapons.
>>
>> Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
>>
>
>>
"On 17 June 1974, Japanese Prime Minister Tsutomu Hata told reporters that "it's
certainly the case that Japan has the capability to possess nuclear weapons but
has not made them."
is that the best you can do?
>> >That first step, as Mao noted, is a
>> >precursor to a long journey.
>>
>>That is strange logic. If you take a step, then you are walking a long way. That
>> isn't what Mao said.
>>
>
>Have you got that in the Chinese? "For a journey of 1000 miles,"
>Chairman Mao is supposed to have said, "it is necessary to take the
>first step".
>>
Which is very different to the misquote I replied to. Perhaps English isn't the
original posters first language.
>> >The offensive planning I have to feel is
>> >there buried in the Japanese General Staff as it was in Germany
>> >between the World Wars.
>>
>> Japanese generals are quite happy staying at home, thank you very much.
>>
>>
>http://www.egroups.co.jp/message/nomorewar/8663
If you are trying to make a point then make it. All I see is refuelling
aircraft.
>
>
>> >The change in the constitution is a harder nut
>> >to crack and may depend on the Emperor Akihito being able to see the
>> >need for the future of the nation, which he personifies.
>>
>>If you think that the Showa Emporeror has any influence on Japanese politics or
>> policy you are very mistaken.
>>
>
>Showa emperor is dead. The Heisei Emperor is the one who should make
>decisions that will lead his people to a safe and wise future.
Yes I made a mistake. I often have to write my birthdate in Showa years. However
the point is the same. The Heisei Emperor has no affect on policy and if you
think otherwise you are very ignorant of Japan.
>>
>> >Once the
>> >constitution is amended to allow for an offensive form of defense,
>> >brought on by the Defense Minister's beliefs that current Japanese
>> >aircraft could not take out any North Korean offensive capability
>> >without an element of suicide.
>>
>> I'm not sure that is actually a sentence. What is your point exactly?
>>
>Check the bit about the JSDF buying tankers as posted above.
It is still only half a sentence. Once the constitution is amended what?
>>
>> >The nuclear thing is probably also
>> >sitting in somebody's safe waiting for the go ahead. Safety is there
>> >for the acceptance, commitment is in the hands of the Emperor and his
>> >advisors.
>>
>>What nuclear *thing* is in somebody's safe? There is a lot of missing plutomium,
>> is that what you mean?
>>
>
>No, I think the Japanese can arrive at a nuclear weapons program, as
>outlined in my first cite above, within a year of initiation, probably
>less if they are cheating now.
>>
As could any first world country.
>
>I would get better prepared, making comments on the use of English in
>a multinational NG is a quick way to find yourself killfiled.
Go for it. English is not the issue, ignorance is. I only speak 4 languages, but
half a sentence is half a sentence in any of those languages.
Brett Robson
>
>:>
>:>This is not an easy operation for the Japanese. There is a sense in
>:>the politicians that troops to Iraq = offensive planning = change of
>:>constitution = nuclear weapons.
>
>: Which politicians have mentioned nuclear weapons?
>
>warned that Japan could quickly build a large nuclear arsenal to curb
>growing Chinese power. When his remarks were widely publicized, he said
>they were 'distorted' but did not withdraw them.
Ozawa? Do a quick google and find out what percentage of the electorate he
represents.
> In the July/Auguse '98 issue of "Foreign Affairs" former
>Prime Minister Hosokawa warned likewise that Japan could (and would)
>rapidly implement a nuclear arsenal if she felt it were necessary.
Hosokawa? That is even funnier. The only post war non LDP PM?
> One argument is that if the US withdraws its 'unconditional' support
>for Japan, Japan would "have to" go nuclear.
yes that is an argument, not a very relevant one though.
Brett Robson
>
>I picked up on Mr. Ozawa after I posted. I think his most telling
>point, one picked up by the Chinese (see Peoples Daily), is that..."
>in fact, Japan has sufficient plutonium already for more than 7000
>nuclear warheads. Currently, Japan has a stockpile of over 38,000
>kilograms of plutonium, of which more than 5,000kg is stored at
>various sites around the country. The largest stock of its plutonium
>of around 31,000kg is currently stored in France and the UK. This is
>to be shipped back over the next 10 to 15 years. In total Japan is
>expected to have more than 45,000kg of plutonium by around 2006-10.
>This will be even larger if a new plutonium reprocessing plant
>currently under construction at Rokkasho-mura in northern Japan is
>completed and operated. The Rokkasho plant is scheduled to produce as
>much as 100,000kg plutonium during the first fifteen years of
>operation. In total Japan would have more plutonium than is contained
>in all United States nuclear warheads. It takes as little as 5kg of
>Greenpeace site. There are people who think that Japan has become some
>sort of hedonistic pleasure-culture and has no party or faction that
>looks to the old Imperial power. None of those people are Chinese and
>I hope very few are Korean.
Every single country in Europe could build nuclear weapons.
Brett Robson
>
>The fact that Hyodo has gone from a far fringe nut case to spokesman
>for a national policy option in seven years is probably the most
>disturbing.
Who is Hyodo?
>
>A ballistic missile program either sea-borne or land mobile seems
>almost ludicrous. The idea of a a mobile missile system on Japan's
>roads with their driving habits is scarier than North Korea's
>potential for trouble.
"their driving habits" Lord give me strength.
Brett Robson
Intelligent people should ignore everything above.
Brett Robson
>
>"Dott. Piergiorgio" <pg...@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:<0cmPb.266660$vO5.10...@twister1.libero.it>...
>> Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
>>
>> > The differences between Japan and the West are still now as they were
>> > then: human life is fairly cheap, so crazy policies are not as crazy
>> > here as they would be in the West. Sadly....
>>
>> I agree on this; but also discussing this topic in an Italian NG someone
>> point to me that Japanese people of today, esp. the younger, are more
>> individualistic today than in the old days. What do you think, based on
>> your observation on the field ?
>>
>> Best regards from Italy.
>
>I believe you guys are missing out on some essential characteristics
>of modern Japan: in polls, the Japanese populace *overwhelmingly*
>opposes militarism, or even actions that have the *appearance* of
>militarism.
Finally a voice of reason.
/
Brett Robson
>
>, I believe that Japanese
>still do not grasp the essence of Western technology (use, yes, but
>not extrapolation and understanding of the Western ideas associated
>with it), and the teachers don't teach!!! (Arrgh!)
That is the most stupid thing I have read tonight.
> Just as Japanese are
>prefectly capable of rational thought when properly taught,
You are a racist bigoted fool.
>So don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Japanese, but I have to agree
>with Piergiorgio (though perhaps not so pessimistically!), Japan is
>NOT what you think it is.
No, Japan is not what *you* think it is.
.
Brett Robson
>
>Do they still have very violent animes, is there a 'war goods' store
>in Kanda, is there a large contingent of deputies who find their way
>into Yasakuni on various 'days', is there/are there think tanks that
>study violent war but don't ever seem to publish for open ditribution,
>do the student groups march, uniformed, to events and points of
>interest, is there someone at one of the metalurgical institutes
>(there's one in Hiroshima, by the way) studying the means of machining
>very heavy metals, is the new concept of Ozawa's group enough to get
>them elected next time around, etc, etc.???
no
Brett Robson
>
>
>>
>>"yada yada"? I'm not sure how the Japanese "yada" fits into that (non) sentence.
>
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
>Nice grammar slam fool.
>It's not Japanese you pr*ck.
>Get a life.
It's not English (or Indonesian, Chinese) either so what the fuck are you
talking about?
Brett Robson
>> Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> writes garbage:
>>
>> *plonk*
>
>Thanks Gernot, he needed that.
>
>For those who want to expand their knowledge of the general subject of
>where Japan may or may not be going militarily:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/international/asia/18TOKY.html
New York Times? Have they stopped writing about panty vending machines?
>ozawa
>http://www.iht.com/articles/105137.html
>us pressure on Japan to arm
Japan is armed, not surprised you didn't notice
>http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/missile/
>icbm capability
>http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/missile/FBIS-EAS-96-227.htm
>Nisohachi Hyodo's 1996 article
>http://marketing.cob.vt.edu/evans/Marketing%20moments.htm#french
>Nisohachi Hyodo is the former bad boy in favor of nuclear weapons for
>Japan.
>http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke.htm
>nuclear weapons capability
Bret Robison
It's quite clear that with the exception of Dan Timmins (and me), the posters
here have no idea what they are talking about. I'm tempted to call you all a
bunch of idiots, but you must have some redeeming qualites (they aren't evident
is this thread for sure). You have some bizarre ideas about Japanese culture
based on two many Samurai movies or you've watched Tora Tora Tora once too
often.
I'd love to educate you, but frankly I don't know where to start. Perhaps
teaching you Japanese would be the best start, as your references clearly fail
you.
Everyone after me
nippon no koto ga zenzen waranai.
.
Fred J. McCall
:Every single country in Europe could build nuclear weapons.
Eventually. Most of them, however, don't have tens of tons of weapon
grade plutonium lying about ready to hand.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Gernot Hassenpflug
> It's quite clear that with the exception of Dan Timmins (and me),
> the posters here have no idea what they are talking about. I'm
> tempted to call you all a bunch of idiots, but you must have some
> redeeming qualites (they aren't evident
I'm not tempted to do anything, the trollmeter doesn't flinch
yet.
> I'd love to educate you, but frankly I don't know where to
> start. Perhaps teaching you Japanese would be the best start, as
> your references clearly fail you.
Obviously you haven't yet grasped the essentials yourself then yet
either. When you do find out where to start, please start :-)
Especially with the Japanese, I'm really keen to learn what you have
to offer.
a000...@airmail.net
>On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:24:52 -0600, a000...@airmail.net ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>>"yada yada"? I'm not sure how the Japanese "yada" fits into that (non) sentence.
>>
>>
>>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
>>Nice grammar slam fool.
>>It's not Japanese you pr*ck.
>>Get a life.
>
>It's not English (or Indonesian, Chinese) either so what the fuck are you
>talking about?
look it up pr*ck
David E. Powell
Brett Robson
http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=yada&x=0&y=0
doesn't appear to be a word.
Brett Robson
>
>Bret Robison <jet...@yahoo.dif> writes:
>
>> It's quite clear that with the exception of Dan Timmins (and me),
>> the posters here have no idea what they are talking about. I'm
>> tempted to call you all a bunch of idiots, but you must have some
>> redeeming qualites (they aren't evident
>
>I'm not tempted to do anything, the trollmeter doesn't flinch
>yet.
>
>> I'd love to educate you, but frankly I don't know where to
>> start. Perhaps teaching you Japanese would be the best start, as
>> your references clearly fail you.
>
>Obviously you haven't yet grasped the essentials yourself then yet
>either.
I passed 1 kyu several years ago, this is the Japanese level required to enter a
Japanese university.
>When you do find out where to start, please start :-)
>Especially with the Japanese, I'm really keen to learn what you have
>to offer.
>
Enough to recognise the following statements are racist stupidity.
The differences between Japan and the West are still now as they were
then: human life is fairly cheap, so crazy policies are not as crazy
here as they would be in the West. Sadly....
I believe that Japanese
still do not grasp the essence of Western technology (use, yes, but
not extrapolation and understanding of the Western ideas associated
with it), and the teachers don't teach!!! (Arrgh!)
Just as Japanese are
prefectly capable of rational thought when properly taught,
----
Brett Robson
>
>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>
>:Every single country in Europe could build nuclear weapons.
>
>Eventually. Most of them, however, don't have tens of tons of weapon
>grade plutonium lying about ready to hand.
>
and they don't have your racist attitude about their inherent militarist
tendencies.
Brett Robson
It seems Steven James Forsberg can't back up any of his stupid assertions - I
guess he exhausted his google searches.
On 23 Jan 2004 08:58:02 -0800, Brett Robson ...
Brett Robson
know what you are talking about. Good strategy, run away and live to fight
again.
On 23 Jan 2004 08:44:12 -0800, Brett Robson ...
Brett Robson
an argument together?
On 23 Jan 2004 09:23:16 -0800, Brett Robson ...
Brett Robson
world where Japanese are crazy sword weilding Emperor whorshiping kamikaze pilot
samurais shouting banzai and points out that you don't actually know what you
are spouting about you go all quiet.
Perhaps you should find out who the *other* Ishihara is, the one who doesn't
collect my rubbish every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
On 23 Jan 2004 08:28:29 -0800, Brett Robson ...
Brett Robson
>Especially with the Japanese, I'm really keen to learn what you have
>to offer.
I would really love to have a intelligent discussion about the serious strategic
issues facing Japan. I am not an expert on stragetic matters as I am just a dumb
ex army officer who has read extensively on the Japanese land force from
original sources and visited bases. However the level of stupidity displayed
here is lamentable and seems to be based more on a recent viewing of Tora Tora
Tora than any serious understanding of Japan. You idiots are unable to put
visions of kamizake pilots shouting banzai on the flight deck past you. If you
made the same assertions about modern Germany you would be quickly recognised as
the idiots you are but there is something about exotic Japan that quickly makes
your minds turn to mush. Maybe it's their funny squigly writing or their
obession with dirty underwear.
Jack Linthicum
Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
Fred J. McCall
:On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:46:46 GMT, Fred J. McCall ...
:>
:>Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
:>
:>:Every single country in Europe could build nuclear weapons.
:>
:>Eventually. Most of them, however, don't have tens of tons of weapon
:>grade plutonium lying about ready to hand.
:
:and they don't have your racist attitude about their inherent militarist
:tendencies.
WHAT? You're obviously confused. Where did I ever say anything
racist about the Japanese?
Jack Linthicum
> On 17 Jan 2004 06:00:30 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
> >
>
> >On the question of local security against a terrorist attack when I
> >lived in Japan, admittedly 40 years ago, the corner policeman knew
> >who everyone was and what their relationship was with his community.
> >After the sarin attacks on the subway I would have thought that would
> >become even more intense and precise. Has the local cop as guardian of
> >the community idea gone? And, as a sort of accompanyment is there more
> >and better coordination of government agencies? This and the Kobe
> >earthquake were almost simultaneous so it would be difficult to change
> >between the two events, but....
>
>
> 3 million people go through Shinjuku station every day. Amazingly the police in
> the local koban (police box) know everyone by name. The first day I travelled to
> work a young policeman approached me and said we haven't met. We exchanged
> meishi (business cards) and had a short importu tea ceremony on the floor
> outside the Keio department store and now he greets me by name every morning (he
> doesn't work in the afternoons when I am kaering).
>
>
On the subject of 'no such word' could you give some reference for
"kaering"?
and by the way if you want to learn about yada, yada, yada (or yadda
yadda yadda) try these:
http://linux.about.com/cs/linux101/g/yada.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/id694.htm#yada
http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p17ax.htm
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yada+yada+yada
a000...@airmail.net
>On the subject of 'no such word' could you give some reference for
>"kaering"?
>
>and by the way if you want to learn about yada, yada, yada (or yadda
>yadda yadda) try these:
>
>http://linux.about.com/cs/linux101/g/yada.htm
>http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/id694.htm#yada
>http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p17ax.htm
>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yada+yada+yada
You ruined the fun Jack :)
Jack Linthicum
With the mentally deficient you need to occasionally remind them which
way the wind blows. It is a little deflating to realize that all
Seinfeld and company were saying is "ya'know?" over and over. I like
the linux one best, if he really is as cogent as he wants us to think
he is he could spend hours on that one.
Brett Robson
>
>
>On the subject of 'no such word' could you give some reference for
>"kaering"?
It is the Japanese verb kaeru (to go home) conguagated as an English verb.
>
>and by the way if you want to learn about yada, yada, yada (or yadda
>yadda yadda) try these:
>
>http://linux.about.com/cs/linux101/g/yada.htm
packages are for wimps, real men use tar balls. Are you still doing Linux 101?
Debian might be a bit advanced for you.
While you are googling for yada did you seem to have missed Japanese definition.
Words definitions are normally found in dictionaries, not Linux tutorials.
.
.
----
Triangle Man hits Person Man
They have a fight
and Triangle Man wins
Brett Robson
>
"Safety is there for the acceptance, commitment is in the hands of the Emperor
and his advisors. "
Now Jack let's get back to basics. The Japanese emperor has nothing to do with
political decisions or anything else to do with policy. The emperor does not
embody the nation. The emperor's job is to write some poetry, wave around some
cut branches and then sip sake. His advisors are experts in fine art and
liteature.
,
Brett Robson
>
>Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
>is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
Just the train line that I catch carries more than 300,000 people everyday, in
the morning. You knowledge about Japanese transport is even worse than your
knowledge of Japanese politics.
Shinjuku Station handles over 4 million passengers per day, and is Japan's
busiest railway station.
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3011.html
Banzai
.
Jack Linthicum
> On 30 Jan 2004 10:09:18 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
> >
> >Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
> >is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
>
>
> Just the train line that I catch carries more than 300,000 people everyday, in
> the morning. You knowledge about Japanese transport is even worse than your
> knowledge of Japanese politics.
>
> Shinjuku Station handles over 4 million passengers per day, and is Japan's
> busiest railway station.
> http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3011.html
>
> Banzai
>
> .
>
>
Would you like to give a reference for "Kaering" it seems to be a non
word, although a champion Labrador retriever is known as Kaera
Kaering. http://www.rasdata.nu/labrador/hund/1984/n0130585.htm Woof!
WOOHOO WOOHOO WOOHOO YATTA YATTA YATTA BANZAI BANZAI BANZAI SUGOI DESU
baka boy remember yada yada, well here it is in Nipper.
"Handles" means that many pass through Shinjuku, riding on the trains.
http://www.tcvb.or.jp/en/infomation/2area/07shinjuku.html
From dazzling modern skyscrapers and a newly built opera district to
crowded discount shops and cozy pubs in back alleys, Shinjuku has
everything. JR Shinjuku Station is said to be the busiest station in
the world, with 760 thousand passengers boarding trains daily.
Fred J. McCall
:On 30 Jan 2004 10:09:18 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
:>
:>Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
:>is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
:
:Just the train line that I catch carries more than 300,000 people everyday, in
:the morning. You knowledge about Japanese transport is even worse than your
:knowledge of Japanese politics.
It appears that no one explained to Jack that when thinking about
Japan and things like transit traffic that we're talking about a
nation with a population half that of the United States jammed into an
area the size of California.
High density. High traffic.
--
"Nekubi o kaite was ikenai"
["It does not do to slit the throat of a sleeping man."]
-- Admiral Yamamoto
Jack Linthicum
> Brett Robson <jet...@deja.com> wrote:
>
> :On 30 Jan 2004 10:09:18 -0800, Jack Linthicum ...
> :>
> :>Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
> :>is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
> :
> :Just the train line that I catch carries more than 300,000 people everyday, in
> :the morning. You knowledge about Japanese transport is even worse than your
> :knowledge of Japanese politics.
>
> It appears that no one explained to Jack that when thinking about
> Japan and things like transit traffic that we're talking about a
> nation with a population half that of the United States jammed into an
> area the size of California.
>
> High density. High traffic.
Been there (two years) Done that (Try taking a pair of skis from Kanda
to Akasaka-Mitsuke). Fred and Brett (or Bret as the mood seems to fit)
you are not worth the arguing. I can get numbers from the net that say
2 million and some that say 4 million but Shinjuku is served by about
10 different lines (rail and subway), has three distinct stations and
is second to Ikebukuro Station the busiest subway station in Japan
and the second busiest railway station overall, second only to
Shinjuku Station. Numbers.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> Sort of confirms my suspicions. By the way the daily count at Shinjuku
> is closer to 300,000 than 3m.
Hi there Jack, I got back from South Africa yesterday, back in Japan
now. Ah, this discussion is still ongoing? :-) You might be right, but
I got my figures from the Lonely Planet Guide to Tokyo. No idea where
they got the figures from....
Jack Linthicum
I sort of corrected myself at this posting: 2004-02-07 03:46:30 PST
The thread has been dormant for four weeks.