How noble is it to be a 'dottore'?
Joe Osman
year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
How noble is it to be a 'dottore'?:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/18/news/titles.php
Joe
dott.piergiorgio
> The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
> year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
> Tribune.
You're missing a detail: I was enrolled under the old, more saner system,
so my degree is actually equivalent to a graduate. The 3-year curricula is
actually the equivalent of an undergraduate.
The current five-year degree is the full graduate, and in practice is
prepared and trained one as me, whose have followed the older 4-year
system.
Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.
Joachim Schmid
> It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
> as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
> Professor"
That's utter nonsense - regardless if college or university. My students
usually call me - like my colleagues - just "Mr. Schmid", most employees
use "Dr. Schmid", some foreign (!) students say "Prof. Schmid", but no
one ever called me by full titles, except in official papers. Even
there, I was never addressed as "Senator Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Schmid" - for
everybody this would sound ridiculous.
In industry, many employees ask new bosses with academic titles, how
they want to be addressed. If one insists on his titles - *shrug*, the
guy must be somewhat conceited. In all the years, I had one single CEO
who was known for demanding to be addressed as "Herr Direktor Dr. X." -
we did it out of fear for our bonus payments, but often secretly joked
about his habit.
Normally, to call one "Dr. Z." is a voluntary sign of respect for
personal authority, not formal auhority.
Our Austrian neighbors are somewhat different. There, traditionally
titles are very important and liberally applied. To exaggerate a little
bit: A plumber or mechanic is called an engineer, and a masseur a doctor
- just for politeness. But no joke: An _Austrian_ high school teacher is
called "professor", many company owners there still call themselves
"Kommerzienrat" (commercial councillor), and even 85 years after
abolition of monarchy and aristocracy, in Austria still exists the rank
and title of "Hofrat" (privy councillor) for executive officials.
Regards
Joachim
Jack Linthicum
Times have changed then. Roughly 1954 one of my professors at U.
Missouri went to Austria, stayed in a little place near his source of
documents. He went from "Herr McGrew" to "Herr Doktor McGrew" to "Herr
Doktor der Universitatzprofessor" as he was asked about what he did.
Arved Sandstrom
news:Hlvoe.409$5M2.241@trndny06...
The most noble title is that of Mister and Missus. It is just now, when I am
43 years of age, that I am permitted to call my best buddy's parents Brian
and Margie. With my aunts and uncles, I must still prefix Ta"di (Aunt) or
O~nu (Uncle) to their first names. All of my grandparents are deceased, and
I was never able to call them by their names - it was Taat (maternal
grandfather), Memm (maternal grandmother), Vanaisa (literally "old father" -
paternal grandfather), and Vanaema (literally "old mother" - paternal
grandmother). Isa and Ema are respectively "Father" and "Mother". My
godmother is Ta"di (Aunt) Aire...I can't just use her first name.
My father is a retired physical oceanographer, PHd, Emeritus status, who
still works mornings at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography, and his title
is "Hal", and always has been. Even the janitors address him as Hal.
Somewhat more of a relaxed atmosphere in non-Teutonic areas.
AHS
Joachim Schmid
> Times have changed then.
Not really.
> Roughly 1954 one of my professors at U.
> Missouri went to Austria, stayed in a little place near his source of
> documents. He went from "Herr McGrew" to "Herr Doktor McGrew" to "Herr
> Doktor der Universitatzprofessor" as he was asked about what he did.
It ist still nearly the same there. :-)
Cheers
Joachim
Ian MacLure
news:1117974332.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> Joachim Schmid wrote:
>> Joe Osman wrote:
>>
>> > It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>> > as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>> > Professor"
An Italian colleague of mine ( a dottore himself, real PhD ) once
remarked casually that in Italy everyone was Dottore.
>> That's utter nonsense - regardless if college or university. My students
>> usually call me - like my colleagues - just "Mr. Schmid", most employees
>> use "Dr. Schmid", some foreign (!) students say "Prof. Schmid", but no
>> one ever called me by full titles, except in official papers. Even
>> there, I was never addressed as "Senator Prof. Dr.-Ing. J. Schmid" - for
>> everybody this would sound ridiculous.
At school we used "Doctor" as slang for "Unlikely to see the back of
a diploma anytime soon".
[snip]
> Times have changed then. Roughly 1954 one of my professors at U.
> Missouri went to Austria, stayed in a little place near his source of
> documents. He went from "Herr McGrew" to "Herr Doktor McGrew" to "Herr
> Doktor der Universitatzprofessor" as he was asked about what he did.
Europeons exepcially continental types seem to have this thing
about titles.
A German colleague ( Dr-Ing ) says that at one time Dr-Ing was
viewed as beyond the pale as far as "official" science (research?)
was concerned. He himself never mentioned his Dr of Eng.
IBM
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Vince Brannigan
Actually its very funny the difference between spoken personal address
and written material. I have the personal situation that I am a
professor, teaching law in a School of Engineering, So my cards for the
UK say
Professor (Law)
and for Germany say
Prof Dr.Jur
So no one will think I'm an Engineer :-)
When speaking to people in Germany the form of address seems to follow
the same rules as Sie and Du. (for non German speakers this is the
formal and informal address) If you are in a Du relationship no one uses
titles but in a Sie relationship they are used routinely. I agree that
in Austria they love titles, and even more than Germany they use the
titles in the "third person" i.e. even a person you know well and have
a "Du" relationship will greet you with the German equivalent of "and
how is the Herr Professor today". It always takes a moment to realize
that they are asking you how you are today.
The UK is particularly Bizarre in writing and cards I'm looking at a
good friend's website from the uk and it has his name followed by
BSc, Dip.Ed, Phd, AMISASI, CMath, FIMA, CEng, MIFireE.
and he is just beginning to collect this stuff. I once went to a very
official event in the UK and there was a discreet inquiry as to whether
I was a full professor or not, since in the US assistant and associate
professors are addressed as Professor. It was used to determine where I
sat.
you can always tell when software was written in Germany or the uk
because it has a full range of titles that can be included
Vince
Ian MacLure
> The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
> year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
> Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
> as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
> Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
In western navies, the commander of a vessel is always the
Captain, whatever their actual rank.
The German just turns out to be more precise in a low-context
way.
Ian MacLure
news:pan.2005.06.05....@SORYUfastwebnet.it:
Seems to me that Oxbridge elevates your Bach to a masters after
some time has passed post graduation.
Joachim Schmid
> An Italian colleague of mine ( a dottore himself, real PhD ) once
> remarked casually that in Italy everyone was Dottore.
Correct. An Italian dottore is equivalent to a master degree.
> A German colleague ( Dr-Ing ) says that at one time Dr-Ing was
> viewed as beyond the pale ...
Can somebody pls explain this expression to me?
Regards
Joachim
Jack Linthicum
One of the games the old intelligence hands used to play on the
contractors representatives was to have "Dr." name cards made up and
address each other as "doctor". It would drive some of the legitimate
draft dodger set crazy trying to figure out what institution would
grant this maniac an advanced degree. One of the funniest events was
the sharp and precise questioning of the only legit doc in the group,
who played along with "you have to understand I have cover problems
with revealing the institution" (MIT) and "I studied under so-and-so,
knowing the guy was dead".
Andrew Chaplin
news:Hlvoe.409$5M2.241@trndny06...
| The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
| year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
| Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
| as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
| Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
My father used to have fun with German titles. When he organized a symposium
of military historians in Ottawa on behalf of DHist, he presented Steve
Harris, then shortly out of a Ph.D. programme and still a bandsman (baritone
horn, IIRC) with the Governor General's Foot Guards band, to Jürgen Rohwer,
a "Herr Doktor"
(http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/foxweb.exe/base/author?jrohwer) as
"Obergefreiter Doktor Harris" and managed to get a highly arched eyebrow out
of Rohwer.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Sarah H
> The most noble title is that of Mister and Missus. It is just now, when I am
> 43 years of age, that I am permitted to call my best buddy's parents Brian
> and Margie. With my aunts and uncles, I must still prefix Ta"di (Aunt) or
> O~nu (Uncle) to their first names. All of my grandparents are deceased, and
> I was never able to call them by their names - it was Taat (maternal
> grandfather), Memm (maternal grandmother), Vanaisa (literally "old father" -
> paternal grandfather), and Vanaema (literally "old mother" - paternal
> grandmother). Isa and Ema are respectively "Father" and "Mother". My
> godmother is Ta"di (Aunt) Aire...I can't just use her first name.
>
> My father is a retired physical oceanographer, PHd, Emeritus status, who
> still works mornings at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography, and his title
> is "Hal", and always has been. Even the janitors address him as Hal.
> Somewhat more of a relaxed atmosphere in non-Teutonic areas.
When I started with GEC-Electronics about 8 years ago I ran into an
interesting dilemma regarding names, titles and familiarity. My boss
was a born-again Muslim and could not bring himself to call me Sarah as
he felt it to be undue familiarity. I could not stand being called Mrs
Hartwell; for a start what passed for a marriage was rapidly
disintegrating and I've never liked being seen as a chattel. The
eventual compromise was that he used my nickname "DQ" (it stands for
"Dragonqueen" - the nickname given to me when I was BOFH on a cluster
of VAXen). In the years that I worked for him, he never called me
anything other than DQ.
--
Sarah Hotdesking
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Ms Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
John Dallman
Schmid) wrote:
> Ian MacLure wrote:
> > A German colleague ( Dr-Ing ) says that at one time Dr-Ing was
> > viewed as beyond the pale ...
> Can somebody pls explain this expression to me?
Assuming you mean "beyond the pale", it dates from the British rule of
Ireland. At some point in the history - don't know just when, but not
recently - the area around Dublin was considered to be fairly civilised,
but the rest of Ireland wasn't. For some reason, the Dublin area was known
as "The Pale", hence "beyond the pale" as being unacceptable in polite
company.
---
John Dallman, j...@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
John Dallman
(Ian MacLure) wrote:
> > The current five-year degree is the full graduate, and in practice is
> > prepared and trained one as me, whose have followed the older 4-year
> > system.
> Seems to me that Oxbridge elevates your Bach to a masters after
> some time has passed post graduation.
Yes. But if you don't hang the (Cantab) or (Oxon) on it to tell people
it's that kind, it's considered fraudulent.
Brian Sharrock
"Joachim Schmid" <E94...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:d7uut9$eh4$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>> viewed as beyond the pale ...
>
> Can somebody pls explain this expression to me?
>
AIUI.
A pale is an archaic term for a slim straight tree-trunk
many of which were used to form a high barrier or palisade.
The area of Dublin was surrounded in Norman times by
such a defence (AIUI). Apparently the area was about
twenty miles surrounding Dublin. This enclosure was
termed 'The Pale'.
Someone who was not acceptable socially would be 'beyond the pale'.
HTH
--
Brian
Brian Sharrock
"Ian MacLure" <i...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:Xns966C3D9A6F...@129.250.168.14...
> Joe Osman <Jseph...@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:Hlvoe.409$5M2.241@trndny06:
>
>> The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
>> year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
>> Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>> as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>> Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
>
> In western navies, the commander of a vessel is always the
> Captain, whatever their actual rank.
> The German just turns out to be more precise in a low-context
> way.
>
> IBM
Isn't Kapitan-Leutnant a specific rank?
Without the context of the conversation when
'Herr Kapitan-Leutnant ... ' occurred it's not
possible to draw any conclusions.
--
Brian
Vince Brannigan
While it is used in other contexts it originated in Ireland
As with so many thigns it has very different meanings for the Brits and
the Irish.
"beyond the pale" was the are not controlled by the Brits
the brits use it to mean "wild and uncivilized"
The Irish take considerable pride in the term as being "genuine irish"
Even today I hear it used to mean "outside of dublin" in the same sense
as we use "beyond the beltway" in the USA
it has a similar meaning to
Metternich's
der Balkan fange in der Landstraße
See
Pale, in Irish history, that district of indefinite and varying limits
around Dublin, in which English law prevailed. The term was first used
in the 14th cent. to designate what had previously been called English
land. Outlying districts were styled the marches, or border lands. In
the time of Henry VIII the Pale extended N from Dublin to Dundalk and
c.20 mi (32 km) inland from the coast. It disappeared in the ensuing
years as the English control of the whole of Ireland was made effective.
http://www.answers.com/topic/pale-1
Normans:Beyond the Pale 1315 - 1558
"The Lordship of Ireland, the area controlled by the English Crown,
reeled from the impact of the Bruce invasion, plague and an Irish
military recovery until it contracted to an area around Dublin known as
the Pale. This process was slowly reversed under the Tudor monarchs,
though Ulster remained beyond the reach of the English Crown."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/beyond_pale.shtml
"whilst our one is from palus, a stake. A pale is an old name for a
pointed stake driven into the ground to form part of a fence and—by
obvious extension—to a barrier made of such stakes, a fence (our modern
word paling is from the same source, as are pole and impale). This
meaning has been around in English since the fourteenth century. By 1400
it had taken on various figurative senses, such as a defence, a
safeguard, a barrier, an enclosure, or a limit beyond which it was not
permissible to go...... The first mention of the Irish Pale is in a
document of 1446–7.
The expression beyond the pale, meaning outside the bounds of acceptable
behaviour, came much later. The idea behind it was that civilisation
stopped at the boundary of the pale and beyond lay those who were not
under civilised control and whose behaviour therefore was not that of
gentlemen.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pal2.htm
Vince
John Dallman
mogg...@aol.com (Sarah H) wrote:
> The eventual compromise was that he used my nickname "DQ" (it stands for
> "Dragonqueen" - the nickname given to me when I was BOFH on a cluster
> of VAXen).
Hah! At work, and on home's computers, my user ID and e-mail address is
"jgd". I try to use the G because something over half the Dallmans I know
have J as an initial. I'm happy to be called John in person. But one chap
at works feels he's being informal and friendly when he calls me "jaygee".
By my age, I should at least be a full LT.
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
>The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
>year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
>Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant"
"Kapitanleutnant" is the name of the rank (US/UK equivalent Lieutenant
Commander), is it not?
On the other hand, I understand that the waiter in a restaurant is
addressed as "Herr Ober", so things must be more formal in Germany.
Peter H. Granzeau
>Joe Osman <Jseph...@verizon.net> wrote in
>news:Hlvoe.409$5M2.241@trndny06:
>
>> The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
>> year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
>> Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>> as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>> Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
>
> In western navies, the commander of a vessel is always the
> Captain, whatever their actual rank.
> The German just turns out to be more precise in a low-context
> way.
The German rank equivalent to Lieutenant Commander is Kapitanleutnant,
anyway.
Joachim Schmid
>>>The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
>>>year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
>>>Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>>>as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>>>Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant".
>>
>> In western navies, the commander of a vessel is always the
>> Captain, whatever their actual rank.
>> The German just turns out to be more precise in a low-context
>> way.
>
> Isn't Kapitan-Leutnant a specific rank?
Yes it is. In German, there is no equivalent to the English term "Sir"
as a sufficiently respectful address. We only have "Herr" in the meaning
of "Sir" as well as "Mister" and _must_ add something specific, like
"Herr Nachbar" (neighbour), "Herr Meier" (Mr. Meier), "Herr Direktor"
(executive), etc. If we do not know or remember the other's identity, we
have "mein Herr" (Mister, Sir) as a last resort, but this demonstrates
our knowledge deficit, and is a little bit out-fashioned, so then we
normally try to avoid any addressing. Eg. it's absolutely acceptable if
a car sales agent just says: "Darf ich Ihnen diesen Wagen zeigen?" (May
I show you this car?) - no "Sir", "mein Herr" or anything the like.
In the military, for the same reason it is not possible to just shout
"Yessir!" but we have always to add the rank, too: "Jawohl Herr
Kapitaenleutnant!" To compensate for this inconvenience, in German
military it is very common and does not show any lack of respect to use
abbreviations for the rank: "Jawohl Herr Kaleu!" was the usual way to
confirm an order in a U-boat, a staff sergeant (Oberfeldwebel) is
addressed as "Herr Oberfeld" or in informal situations just "Oberfeld".
Even more: Saying "Herr Kapitaen" to a German navy captain is considered
somewhat impolite, because as a military commanding officer he expects
to be addressed with a military-style clipped "Herr Kap'taen" to
distinguish him from a merchant marine captain.
Regards
Joachim
Michael P. Reed
<pgr...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 04:39:03 GMT, Joe Osman <Jseph...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The Italian law that you are entitled to be a 'dottore' with a three
>>year degree has led to problems, according to the International Herald
>>Tribune. It says that Italians love titles, but I've never seen anyone
>>as bad as the Germans. College professors there are "Herr Doktor
>>Professor", and U-Boat captains were "Herr Kapitan Leutnant"
>
>"Kapitanleutnant" is the name of the rank (US/UK equivalent Lieutenant
>Commander), is it not?
Captain-Lieutenant was once an actual rank in the United States as
well. Sometimes it was referred to lieutenant's commanding companies
(much like LTCs who were designated lietenant colonel commandant). In
the artillery companies, capt-lt was a grade between capt and 1st Lt
(said companies also having a 3rd Lt vice two 2nd lt's or an ensign).
That was standard during the Revolution, but was phased out around the
time of the adoption of the Constitution, because five officers per
company was deemed far too expensive.
--
Regards,
Michael P. Reed
Joachim Schmid
> A German colleague ( Dr-Ing ) says that at one time Dr-Ing was
> viewed as beyond the pale as far as "official" science (research?)
> was concerned.
First of all, many thanks to all the gents for their explanations of
"beyond the pale".
Well, this was indeed the situation in former times, when the "pure"
scientists considered themselves as superior. But this is long ago, at
least in Germany engineering is now fully accepted as a science.
In contrary, I never had any feeling oder impression of
inferiority, and never faced reservations from other scientists. The
only opposition comes sometime from the "snooty" and social departments
- but not against the title but against technology and engineering itself.
> He himself never mentioned his Dr of Eng.
Not that uncommon. We engineers have a sense for understatement. ;-)
My sister is working in a travel agency, and one day she told that she
sometimes has customers who introduce themselves in pretended modesty
just by name, but then place a business card with full academic titles
on the counter and watch attentively that all titles are put into the
booking form. ;-)
Regards
Joachim
Joachim Schmid
> On the other hand, I understand that the waiter in a restaurant is
> addressed as "Herr Ober", so things must be more formal in Germany.
As already explained, it's a matter of language structures, too. In
German, as in many other languages, there is a distinction between
formal and informal address. We have not only "you", but say "du" to
family members and friends, and the more respectful and formal "Sie" to
others. Calling a stranger or non-befriended person "du" is already a
slight offense. And German lacks some short formal forms of address,
like the English "Sir" or "Mister". We cannot say just "Herr", but have
to add a specification. So the waiter is either the polite "Herr Ober"
(coming from "Oberkellner" = head waiter) or you just call for
"Bedienung" (service) and the address the waiter with "Sie".
Funnily, the waitress is not a "Mrs. Ober" but just "Fraeulein". Today,
this outdated thanks to women's lib, so the waitress is "Bedienung" or
talked at without any address. Of course, if one knows the waiters by
name, the name is used in the degree of respect appropiate to the kind
of restaurant and grade of personal familiarity.
Regards
Joachim
Arved Sandstrom
news:y9SdncgcTpl...@comcast.com...
[ SNIP ]
> When speaking to people in Germany the form of address seems to follow
> the same rules as Sie and Du. (for non German speakers this is the
> formal and informal address) If you are in a Du relationship no one uses
> titles but in a Sie relationship they are used routinely. I agree that
> in Austria they love titles, and even more than Germany they use the
> titles in the "third person" i.e. even a person you know well and have
> a "Du" relationship will greet you with the German equivalent of "and
> how is the Herr Professor today". It always takes a moment to realize
> that they are asking you how you are today.
Estonian is similar - for example, I can use Sina with my sisters but must
use Teie with my parents.
Third person in the Marine Corps was great, because they couldn't tell you
to stop it. I enjoyed myself a great deal saying "Would the Major like a new
cup of coffee?"
AHS
Arved Sandstrom
[ SNIP ]
> In the military, for the same reason it is not possible to just shout
> "Yessir!" but we have always to add the rank, too: "Jawohl Herr
> Kapitaenleutnant!" To compensate for this inconvenience, in German
> military it is very common and does not show any lack of respect to use
> abbreviations for the rank: "Jawohl Herr Kaleu!" was the usual way to
> confirm an order in a U-boat, a staff sergeant (Oberfeldwebel) is
> addressed as "Herr Oberfeld" or in informal situations just "Oberfeld".
> Even more: Saying "Herr Kapitaen" to a German navy captain is considered
> somewhat impolite, because as a military commanding officer he expects
> to be addressed with a military-style clipped "Herr Kap'taen" to
> distinguish him from a merchant marine captain.
Oddly enough, in the US Marines you never used the rank if if you were
addressing an officer. It was "Sir" and nothing but "Sir". I do not recall
once, in 6 years, ever addressing an officer as anything but Sir. The TV
series JAG and US Army customs give you the impression that you can casually
trot around and say "Captain" or "Colonel" - not so. We only used the rank
in informal conversations - as in, "Captain W. is a dickhead."
AHS
John Dallman
Schmid) wrote:
> Even more: Saying "Herr Kapitaen" to a German navy captain is
> considered somewhat impolite, because as a military commanding officer
> he expects to be addressed with a military-style clipped "Herr
> Kap'taen" to distinguish him from a merchant marine captain.
Is that anyone who is captain of a vessel, or only someone with the full
rank of Kaptain zur See? My guess would be the former. Since "Herr" is
clearly a gendered term, what would be the equivalent for a lady officer?
Is there any equivalent of "skipper", as used for the captain of a vessel
so small that calling him "Captain" seems excessive?
John Dallman
(Arved Sandstrom) wrote:
> Third person in the Marine Corps was great, because they couldn't tell
> you to stop it. I enjoyed myself a great deal saying "Would the Major
> like a new cup of coffee?"
Yes ... is that just a bizarre custom of the USMC, or is there supposed to
be a reason for it?
the Epopt of Boskone
> Is that anyone who is captain of a vessel, or only someone with the full
> rank of Kaptain zur See? My guess would be the former. Since "Herr" is
> clearly a gendered term, what would be the equivalent for a lady officer?
Frau Kaleu?
How do the Norwegians address Solveig Krey?
--
All e-mail sent to dev...@epoptic.com
is recorded as spam and never read.
Joachim Schmid
>>Even more: Saying "Herr Kapitaen" to a German navy captain is
>>considered somewhat impolite, because as a military commanding officer
>>he expects to be addressed with a military-style clipped "Herr
>>Kap'taen" to distinguish him from a merchant marine captain.
>
> Is that anyone who is captain of a vessel, or only someone with the full
> rank of Kaptain zur See?
Only an officer with the rank of captain is addressed as "Herr
Kap(i)taen". It's civilian use - a mix of politeness and cluelessness -
to call any skipper a Kapitaen.
> Since "Herr" is
> clearly a gendered term, what would be the equivalent for a lady officer?
For gender-neutral ranks like Kapitaen or Leutnant ist no problem to say
"Frau Leutnant" or "Frau Kapitaen". The tricky ranks are the ones
including a male form like Gefreiter (corporal), Bootsmann (Bosun), or
Hauptmann (army captain). "Frau Bootsmann" sounds illogical, but "Frau
Bootsfrau" just ridiculous, the feminized "Frau Bootsmaennin" even
silly. The same with some civilian officials' ranks like Amtmann
("office man" = office chief - anybody with a suitable translation at
hand?) or professions like Kaufmann (office clerk, merchant).
For several reasons (tradition, practicability, linguistic correctness)
the military decided to abstain from a feminization of ranks, saying
"Frau Bootsmann" etc. Only in written documents a gender identification
is - if necessary - achieved by adding a (w) ("weiblich" = female) to
the rank.
Civil service and industry instead - under heavy pressure of female
equality legislation - decided to consequently either neutralize or
feminize all ranks and designations. So we actually have now an Amtfrau
besides the Amtmann, with the plural form changed from Amtmaenner to
Amtleute ("office people"). The same with Kaufmann etc.
> Is there any equivalent of "skipper", as used for the captain of a vessel
> so small that calling him "Captain" seems excessive?
We just say "skipper", too :-)
Regards
Joachim
Joachim Schmid
>>In German ...
>>Calling a stranger or non-befriended person "du" is already a
>>slight offense.
>
> It's exactly the opposite in de.* usenet. Calling somebody "Sie" is
> quite an offensive move ;)
Yes, an interesting phenomenon. The usenet had its origin in a group of
anglophile like-minded young people, so they established this custom.
Now, with a much larger spectrum of users, this causes some bizarrities,
eg. when students and professors want to discuss matters in the usenet,
or when a contact from the usenet leads to a business relationship.
Regards
Joachim
Arved Sandstrom
news:memo.2005060...@jgd.compulink.co.uk...
> In article <veIoe.26620$HI.14606@edtnps84>, asand...@accesswave.ca
> (Arved Sandstrom) wrote:
>
> > Third person in the Marine Corps was great, because they couldn't tell
> > you to stop it. I enjoyed myself a great deal saying "Would the Major
> > like a new cup of coffee?"
>
> Yes ... is that just a bizarre custom of the USMC, or is there supposed to
> be a reason for it?
No reason required. As quoted from the Heinl/Estes "Handbook for Marine
NCO's", 3rd edition, 1988, foreword by Gen. Al Gray, "in these days of
unification, Marines should also be very careful not to pick up
inappropriate terms and phrases from other services, even if we do serve
alongside them."
Officers of a company or battery may address the First Sergeant as Top - all
others must use First Sergeant.
Navy CPO's are spoken to as "Chief."
Navy corpsmen of rank equal to you, or lesser, may be addressed as "Doc."
Never refer to a Marine by their paygrade. You are a Sergeant, not an E-5.
The Army and Air Force are pretty sloppy in this regard, but that's their
problem.
Corpsmen are corpsmen. We don't have medics or aid men.
Every Cherokee Marine is known as Chief.
Third person address is only used when you want to take the piss out of an
officer. It's completely legal, and is not considered to be insolent
behaviour.
AHS
Arved Sandstrom
> Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
> > On the other hand, I understand that the waiter in a restaurant is
> > addressed as "Herr Ober", so things must be more formal in Germany.
>
> As already explained, it's a matter of language structures, too. In
> German, as in many other languages, there is a distinction between
> formal and informal address. We have not only "you", but say "du" to
> family members and friends, and the more respectful and formal "Sie" to
> others.
I still have to refer to my parents, aunts, uncles and godparents as "Teie",
which is like the German "Sie".
AHS
Peter H. Granzeau
<andre....@gmx.de> wrote:
>Peter H. Granzeau <pgr...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>The German rank equivalent to Lieutenant Commander is Kapitanleutnant,
>>anyway.
>
>Kapitaenleutnant is OF-2, that's Lieutenant in USN/RN. Lieutenant
>Commander is Korvettankapitaen.
Aha. The reference I had was wrong, then. I know you are correct.
Sorry.
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
That is interesting.
English, of course, uses "you" for all forms of second person now, but
originally "you" was only plural (hence the now-obsolete "thee" and
"thou", now reserved for Quakers and addressing the Deity).
Sarah H
>
> That is interesting.
>
> English, of course, uses "you" for all forms of second person now, but
> originally "you" was only plural (hence the now-obsolete "thee" and
> "thou", now reserved for Quakers and addressing the Deity).
That's true for Queen's English, but some English dialects preserve
"yous" for plural you. Evidently when "you" became singular, those
dialects still had a need for a distinguishable plural form. I also
came across "us'n" ("Them's not for the likes of us'n"), but I'm note
sure of the usage.
Jack Linthicum
Old Brooklyneese had the "youse" form "Youse guys", the Appalachians
seem to have also preserved the "us'n" and other old forms, Quebec was
a backwater in language too.
Andrew Chaplin
news:1118054733....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
There are lots of archaisms in Quebec Joual and even more elevated language,
e.g. "dispendieux" rather than "cher" for "expensive", but their "vouvoyage"
and "tutoyage" practices are fairly consistent with those of France. The
Acadians, who brought some Huguenot influences with them, are rather more
familiar, but I cannot say that this predates the end of the Ancien Regime
for them.
As for "thee" and "thou", the Book of Common Prayer is still full of them.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Bob McKellar
"Sarah H" <mogg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1118052616....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Y'all are still missing some examples.
Bob McKellar
Glenn Dowdy
"Bob McKellar" <b...@coastcomp.com> wrote in message
news:maadndCt68p...@comcast.com...
Glenn D.
John Dallman
(Arved Sandstrom) wrote:
Thanks. Any idea how it started?
Peter H. Granzeau
Which was why my last words above were "and addressing the Deity".
Joachim Schmid
> I still have to refer to my parents, aunts, uncles and godparents as "Teie",
> which is like the German "Sie".
The same in Germany until ca. 150 years ago.
Regards
Joachim
Arved Sandstrom
> (Arved Sandstrom) wrote:
>
> > Third person address is only used when you want to take the piss out of
> > an officer. It's completely legal, and is not considered to be insolent
> > behaviour.
>
> Thanks. Any idea how it started?
I don't know for a fact, but I'm guessing that you would have to have been a
pretty close buddy of a prince, archduke, earl, colonel or major in order to
call him Hermann or Archie. I believe third person was fairly common - it's
just now that you can still use it but it sounds bizarre.
AHS
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
(Joachim Schmid) wrote:
> It's civilian use - a mix of politeness and cluelessness -
> to call any skipper a Kapitaen.
RN usage used to be to call the commander of a vessel Captain while
he was aboard regardless of his actual rank. There can be only one man
who can directly command all the crew. This usage goes back to the
Napoleonic Wars or earlier. Only one Captain on a ship which was why
the Marine Commander was known as Major. About the only exception to
this would be when there was a Captain of the Fleet (chief of staff
for an Admiral) aboard a ship with a second captain who commanded the
vessel.
Ken Young
ken...@cix.co.uk
Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)
Joachim Schmid
>> It's civilian use - a mix of politeness and cluelessness -
>>to call any skipper a Kapitaen.
>
> RN usage used to be to call the commander of a vessel Captain while
> he was aboard regardless of his actual rank. ...
Yes, the RN has several customs differing from the German habits. I
could only speak of the latter.
One should not forget that in Germany there is no long military naval
tradition. Before the 1870 unification, Germany was a rag rug of
independent territories. None of them maintained a considerable naval
force besides of some customs cutters. In wartime, sometimes there were
quickly put together some armed merchantmen or hurriedly built units,
which were disbanded after the end of hostilities. The first serious
attempt to form a Navy was the Federal Fleet of the 1848 revolution,
which was dissolved after only a few years. Some ships were taken over
by the Prussian state, but that new, small Prussian Navy was known to
more being laid up than being at sea. For lack of experienced personnel,
the Federal Navy as well as the successing Prussian Navy and the
resulting Imperial Navy of 1870 had to employ civilian skippers and to a
large extent army officers. Until 1885, the admiralty consisted of
former Prussian army generals with no naval education.
So the German Navy lacked of continual service traditions, was under the
influence of land soldiers with their traditions and view of things. And
we should consider that it already started as a partly mechanized
service, with no memories and habits from wartimes with "iron men aboard
wooden ships".
Regards
Joachim
Brian Sharrock
Scouse still differentitates between singular and plural
forms of the second person ... you; yous: [not you'se which is a
contraction]
Scouse also differentiates relationships being based
on the person speaking and the distance of the relationship.
Direct linear relations get the adjective 'Me' as in 'mine'
MeDad, MeMam, MeGranMa, MeGrandDad ...
Siblings, and Cousins get 'R' from 'Our' ...
R'Joe, R'Josie, R'Sue ...
Uncles, Aunts of blood relationship warrant the 'Me' too ...
MeUncleBob = My (Mother's Brother) Bob ..
whereas 'Uncle Bob' just is the appropriate form of address
for a Male friend of your parents who can be trusted ...
Mr Smith is a male who may or not be a friend ... :(
WHen I return to Liverpool I can understand it when a
child say; "Uncle Brian! -(He knows me) R'Brian (his brother)
has gone with MeUncleBrian (His Mother's brother) to Uncle Brian's
[the house of a neighbour called Brian)".
--
Brian
Hoges in WA
<ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t9WdnRTB0tK...@pipex.net...
I came in on this one late but I've read all 50-odd on G Groups.
Can you tell me what the correct form of address is for a Warrant Officer?
I am aware that Army has some distinctions between WOs who are by posting
RSMs and RSM is appropriate but what about the Navy ones and (OT I know) the
remaining Army ones.
thanks
Hoges in WA
Joe Osman
and everyone else would find it interesting. I guess I should have
commented to that effect when I posted it. Sorry.
Joe
Joe Osman
at MU. I moved to New York state from Columbia, Missouri and still miss
it and plan to retire there. The DoD has me moving in their BRACC plan,
so it may be sooner than I expected.
Joe
Joe Osman
do think that there should be a difference between scientists and
engineers as both disciplines are needed. "Scientist" does have more
prestige. All of the "Chief Scientists" I have run across have been
engineers, and I have heard that some peoples plans for their Ph. D. in
Engineering have been rejected as "just engineering", which doesn't
make sense to me.
Joe
Joe Osman
both the USMC and US Army before WWII. When I left the Marines in 1972,
I still disliked officers, mostly due to the separation that was
carefully maintained between officers and enlisted men. One thing about
the Marines is that officers don't have to go through boot camp. Marine
officers that were not platoon leaders in combat were surprisingly
defensive about that. I think that there should be a separation as
discipline is what keeps people moving when the shit really hits the
fan.
I've heard Air Force enlisted men use officer first names when they
thought they were alone or forgot I was there. I don't even remember
the last time someone used "Sir" to someone lower than a colonel or
general.
Joe
Joe Osman
inappropriatly used, as the title properly belongs to a "Combat Arms"
Warrant Officer who is also a Marine Gunner with a bursting bomb
insignia.
It was legal to call any officer below a certain rank (Lt. Commander,
IIRC) "Mister " also, but I never heard a subordinate rank do so.
Joe
Joe Osman
are from New York City, thanks to all the prisons in the area. I hear
"you guys" as the plural "you" much more often, even by females
addressing other females.
My favorite is "y'all" and "all y'all" from my North Carolina days.
Joe
Joe Osman
singular and y'all for plural. Some use 'y'all and 'all y'all" and some
use y'all for both.
Joe
Joe Osman
past and present. My wife's grandmother remembered when the coastal
inhabitants of North Carolina still spoke Elizabethan English before
radios became common.
In the US reckon is used only in the south and people looked at me
funny when I used it in New York where it is considered "hick" but I
hear it on British television and movies all the time.
Vince Brannigan
I actually published quite a bit on this issue in the context of
expertise. When I chaired the Promotion and Tenure committee in the
Engineering School this was an endless discussion. Most of the
engineering Phds seemed to be in areas where complex measurement and
uncertainty was the dominant issue while scientists looked for
confirmation of theory. It was always interesting to watch the clash
in the committee.
then there is Computer Science
How many computer scientists does it take to change a light bulb?
They don't, that's hardware
Vince
William Black
"Hoges in WA" <tzhog...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:ESipe.7219$F7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I came in on this one late but I've read all 50-odd on G Groups.
>
> Can you tell me what the correct form of address is for a Warrant Officer?
In the UK services it depends what rank you are.
Inferiors call then 'sir'
Superiors call them 'Mister Smith' (or whatever)
Equals call them 'John' (or whatever)
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Joe Osman
"Airmen" to designate the people in the Air Force. And yes, they want
it capitalized.
Joe
Peter H. Granzeau
<tzhog...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Can you tell me what the correct form of address is for a Warrant Officer?
>I am aware that Army has some distinctions between WOs who are by posting
>RSMs and RSM is appropriate but what about the Navy ones and (OT I know) the
>remaining Army ones.
US warrant officers rate a "sir" and a salute from enlisted. USN
warrant officers are addressed formally as "Mister Smith", but often
informally by the traditional name of their warrant specialty (thus, a
Surface Ordnance Technician is called "Gunner").
Jack Linthicum
As it says in this website there are no warrant officers in the Navy,
per se. They are all Chief Warrant officers and as such may be
addressed as Chief, a title all have to earn before the warrant is
issued. http://www.answers.com/topic/warrant-officer
"There are no "warrant officers" per se in the U.S. Navy, but rather
"chief warrant officer" is the correct title. In the U.S. Navy, a
sailor must be in one of the top three enlisted ranks to be eligible to
become a chief warrant officer."
An interesting point is the origin of the warrant began in the 13th
century in the nascent British Royal Navy. At that time, nobles assumed
command of the new Navy, adopting the Army ranks of lieutenant and
captain. These officers often had no knowledge of life on board a
ship-let alone how to navigate such a vessel or operate the
guns-and relied on the expertise and cooperation of a senior sailor
who tended to the technical aspects of running the ship and operating
the cannons.
These sailors became indispensable to less-experienced officers and
were rewarded with a royal warrant. This warrant was a special
designation, designed to set them apart from other sailors, yet not
violate the strict class system that was prevalent during the time.
Arved Sandstrom
news:gJidnWsjh7k...@comcast.com...
> Joe Osman wrote:
> > I make fun of the engineers I work with all the time and vice versa. I
> > do think that there should be a difference between scientists and
> > engineers as both disciplines are needed. "Scientist" does have more
> > prestige. All of the "Chief Scientists" I have run across have been
> > engineers, and I have heard that some peoples plans for their Ph. D. in
> > Engineering have been rejected as "just engineering", which doesn't
> > make sense to me.
>
> expertise. When I chaired the Promotion and Tenure committee in the
> Engineering School this was an endless discussion. Most of the
> engineering Phds seemed to be in areas where complex measurement and
> uncertainty was the dominant issue while scientists looked for
> confirmation of theory. It was always interesting to watch the clash
> in the committee.
I had the delightful experience of being in both cultures - physics and
electrical engineering. Throw in political science as a minor, and I really
had my brain whacked.
> then there is Computer Science
> How many computer scientists does it take to change a light bulb?
> They don't, that's hardware
There is truth to this statement. I can send you email, or receive email,
using straight POP and SMTP commands through Telnet, in a heartbeat, or lash
up a quickie program in Python, C++, or Perl, but it took me about 2 hours
to install a second hard drive.
AHS
Arved Sandstrom
news:1118161127.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
When I was in the Marines, we mostly didn't know the junior and field grade
officers' first names at all. Come to think of it, I don't believe I knew
more than a handful of enlisted ranks' first names above Sergeant - Sergeant
Major or Gunnery Sergeant was quite sufficient...that *is* their first name.
Using "Sir" is an art. Do it too often, and it's insolence. Do it too
infrequently, and it's insubordination.
I have to admit, that as enlisted personnel in private conversation over
beers, none of the officers retained their ranks, going all the way up to
the Commandant. It was "Al Gray", not the Commandant, nor General Al Gray.
Although we had great respect for him.
AHS
Jack Love
Electric screwdriver! You need one. After built in icemakers one of
the great inventions of the last century!
Sarah H
news:DRnpe.45066$9A2.16461@edtnps89...
> > How many computer scientists does it take to change a light bulb?
> > They don't, that's hardware
>
> There is truth to this statement. I can send you email, or receive email,
> using straight POP and SMTP commands through Telnet, in a heartbeat, or
lash
> up a quickie program in Python, C++, or Perl, but it took me about 2
hours
> to install a second hard drive.
>
was XP that had me beat when it came to putting a new HDD for bro-in-law -
XP has this "initialise" command that isn't easy to find! I'm now doing
the PC maintenance stuff for bro-in-law and father; getting used to
installing HW though the folks stay worried from the moment I open the case
to the moment it reboots successflly. I've been doing more and more of
this so my HW skills are improving. Currently I've been seconded/migrated
from SW QA into HW QA and I'm really enjoying the challenge and the
learning curve (and I get to use screwdrivers and things).
--
Sarah H
Disclaimer 1: All opinions are my own
Disclaimer 2: Any non-work-related links in this post should be viewed in
your own time
/^\ ASCII RIBBON
\ / CAMPAIGN
X AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \ AND POSTINGS.
Arved Sandstrom
news:42a68506$1...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
Can you do maintenance on my Honda Accord?
AHS
Sarah H
trusty VW Polo going as long as possible as it has a nice basic engine and
I have a fair idea of what's going on and it does what *I* tell it. New
cars scare me.
William Hamblen
> I gave up car fixing when they put computers in them. I'm keeping my
> trusty VW Polo going as long as possible as it has a nice basic engine and
> I have a fair idea of what's going on and it does what *I* tell it. New
> cars scare me.
Like the Irish woman I saw interviewed on television many years ago
who had a Rolls-Royce with about a million miles on it. She knew how
to work on it herself. Her only concession to modernity was that she
had had an electric starter put in on the advice of her doctor.
--
e-Harmony.com called the cops after I sent in my personality profile.
Glenn Dowdy
> using straight POP and SMTP commands through Telnet, in a heartbeat, or
> lash
> up a quickie program in Python, C++, or Perl, but it took me about 2 hours
> to install a second hard drive.
>
Glenn D.
Glenn Dowdy
>
> Using "Sir" is an art. Do it too often, and it's insolence. Do it too
> infrequently, and it's insubordination.
>
platoon. We had a rat-bastard ring-knocker for a CO, and the troops were
pretty careful when he was around.
Glenn D.
Joe Osman
friends with a can of cold spray, but quickly learned which chip caused
which error. I've built most of my Intel based computers from scratch,
and have to keep up on the hardware because I like to put OS/2 on them
and it's behind on hardware drivers. I used to work on hardware
components for optical computers and have two patents for photochromic
optical memory systems.
I never did like programming and was bored in my advanced computer
courses (pipelining. etc) mostly because I consider computer science to
be nothing more than fancy bookkeeping. Luckily for me, I was able to
get an undergraduate programmer both as a graduate student and as a
working scientist.
Joe
Jack Love
It certainly depends on what kind of case you have but I do it (far
too frequently in the recent past) in about 10 minutes...depending
upon where the #$@$ broken drive is. Now formatting the latest in
250GB drives can take some time, indeed.
Joe Osman
more expensive.
Joe
Brian Sharrock
"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1118170632.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Unfortunately Jack, you seem to have a biased interpretation - coupled with
some plain inaccuracies.
In the Royal Navy there was (broadly) an _Admiralty_ which commanded the
Sea Officers holding a Royal Commissioned to execute the policy of the
Admiralty.
Such an officer would be ordered to serve onboard a specific named ship
for a commission (a period of duty). However the vessel itself would
'belong' to the _Navy Board_ the body which negotiated with builders,
outfitted, and staffed them with Sailing Master, Boatswain, Surgeon,
Coopers,
Carpenters, Gunners, Sailmakers, Bakers, and all the other staff needed
to keep a mobile military machine in working order (ready to perform
under the directions of the Sea Officer(s).
A Warrant was not a _Royal Warrant_ but was issued by (or on behalf of)
the _Navy Board_. Lavery (Nelson's Navy) has a facsimile of a warrant;-
it says; -
By Virtue of the power and authority to me given, I do hereby
appoint you ...$Tradename ... of His Majesty's ship ... $Shipname ...
in the room of ... £directions_for_finding_appointee ... requiring you
forthwith to repair on board the said ship and take upon the
Employment of ... $Tradename ... in her accordingly and to be
obedient to such commands as you shall form Time to Time receive from
the Captain of said ship or any other your Superior Officer,
to hold the same Employment till further Order, together with such an
allowances of Wages and Victuals for yourself and servant(s) as is
usual for ... $Tradename ... of the said ship.
And for so doing this shall be your Warrant.
Dated ....
Signed ....
To: $Person_appointed
hereby appointed ... $Tradename ...
of His Majesty's Ship ...$Shipname ...
By Command of the .....
As you can see, the warrant is a rather vague 'letter of
appointment' but, on the bright side; it's a for an
unlimited period.
The Public Records Office (now National Archives) Kew, has
many such warrants. BTW, Commissions were issued on parchment
while warrants were on paper.
It should also be noted that the Navy was a meritocracy within
which even the most aristocratic needed time-in before becoming
[this requirement was fiddled a bit ... ] a midshipman and needed
to pass the examination for 'Officer' status [passed Lieutenant]
then advance through the appointments before being posted Captain.
An officer without an appointment to serve at sea was 'beached' and
on half-pay whilst a Warrant-holder stayed with the ship.
Those seamen who qualified to help the warrant-holder were, of course,
his 'Mates' so the Boatswain (Bosun) would have Bosun's Mates etc.
The path to Lieutenants' Examinations had two entry streams; Midshipmen
and Mates.
There were several classifications of Warrant holders, The Master
would be entitled to dine in the Wardroom - officially 'with but after'
the Lieutenants but he'd still have the best cabin. Other Warrant-holders
would mess in the Gunroom - along with the midshipmen, while some
Warrant-holders would be Petty Officer equivalents ... I can't
quite equate these practises to your; " ... yet not violate the strict
class system that was prevalent during the time."
--
Brian
Jack Linthicum
You are speaking of the 13th Century aren't you? As I was?
Tank Fixer
on Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:48:07 GMT,
Glenn Dowdy glenn.n...@hpspam.com attempted to say .....
A new lieutenant was always refered to as just that until they had rpoven
themselves.
Then they might find themselves called LT.
If I know the first sergeant I may use the term Top, depending on who might
be around.
Where I work we have the disadvantage where many of the soldiers are federal
technicians during the week. No one uses rank with them and you have to be
careful come drill when Steve becomes your unit 1SG and Hans is the CSM..
They usually don't mind but it's not good for the troops to hear.
--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
Tank Fixer
on Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:34 +0100 (BST),
John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk attempted to say .....
> In article <1117984574.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> mogg...@aol.com (Sarah H) wrote:
>
> > The eventual compromise was that he used my nickname "DQ" (it stands for
> > "Dragonqueen" - the nickname given to me when I was BOFH on a cluster
> > of VAXen).
>
> Hah! At work, and on home's computers, my user ID and e-mail address is
> "jgd". I try to use the G because something over half the Dallmans I know
> have J as an initial. I'm happy to be called John in person. But one chap
> at works feels he's being informal and friendly when he calls me "jaygee".
> By my age, I should at least be a full LT.
One can't ignore that incident with the Admiral's daughter, sorry....
Brian Sharrock
Brian Sharrock wrote:
> "Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1118170632.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
big snip
Oh dear, Jack! _NO_ , I was not referring to the 13th Century
- a term I understand to refer to 1200 AD until 1299 AD - as
you were. Unfortunately the Royal Navy wasn't even nascent in
the 13th Century timeframe (AIUI). A Navy Royal would be assembled
by the Lord High Admiral for a specific event - transporting
an army across to France usually. [When King Edward III organised
his great flotilla to invade France in 1347 (_14th Century) barely
thirty of seven hundred ships belonged to the King. All the rest
were borrowed from private merchants and fishermen), After the event
the Navy Royal - essentially STUFT - would disperse about their
profitable business. (They would only meet again if there was another
army to ferry or loot to be carried home).
The nascent Royal Navy is usually considered to start with the Tudor
dynasty when ships were built by and for the Crown for war-fighting.
Please cite any 13th Century warrants that support your hypothesis.
--
Brian
Peter McLelland
"Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:nuTpe.7240$8m5...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
to that I am quite sure that warrants were given to those in charge of ships
engaged in warfare on behalf of the king, but these would be more akin to
those later described as Letters of Marque. One must remember that a Royal
Warrant is still a form of royal appointment and was certainly used much
more in medieval times as a means of conferring authority on some one to act
on behalf of the crown in some matter.
Peter
Jack Linthicum
Well, this is the official U.S. Navy historical site. I can believe
that it has been vetted by historians, Colonials and Brits, and has a
certain ring of scholarly twinkieness to it. IE saying "five English
ports" rather than "cinq ports".
http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/triv4-5b.htm
"The "warrant" portion of the Warrant Officer's title comes from the
old French word warant that meant variously a protector, a defense and
an authorization. It is also the source of our modern word "warranty."
In 1040 when five English ports began furnishing warships to King
Edward the Confessor in exchange for certain privileges, they also
furnished crews whose officers were the Master, Boatswain, Carpenter
and Cook. Later these officers were "warranted" by the British
Admiralty. They maintained and sailed the ships and were the standing
officers of the navy. Soldiers commanded by Captains would be on board
the ships to do the fighting but they had nothing to do with running
the ships. The word "soldiering" came about as a seaman's term of
contempt for the soldiers and anyone else who avoided shipboard duties.
The warranted officers were often the permanent members of the ships'
companies. They stayed with the ships in port between voyages as
caretakers supervising repairs and refitting. Other crewmen and
soldiers might change with each voyage. Early in the Fourteenth Century
the Purser joined the warrant officers. He was originally "the clerk of
burser." During the following centuries the Gunner, Surgeon, Chaplain,
Master-at-arms, Schoolmaster and others signed on."
BF Lake
"Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote
> Oh dear, Jack! _NO_ , I was not referring to the 13th Century
> - a term I understand to refer to 1200 AD until 1299 AD - as
> you were.
Snip good history.
The rest of us count starting with "one", so that the century would go from
1201 to 1300. Maybe Brian is still in UK house-floor counting mode. Maybe
that is why the UK jumped the gun on the new millenium. Maybe we could go
over 'home and make some money by trading them 99 cents for a dollar?
Regards,
Barry
Jack Linthicum
that 99 cents, is that them New Pennies?
BF Lake
from
> > 1201 to 1300. Maybe Brian is still in UK house-floor counting mode.
Maybe
> > that is why the UK jumped the gun on the new millenium. Maybe we could
go
> > over 'home and make some money by trading them 99 cents for a dollar?
> that 99 cents, is that them New Pennies?
Yipes, I forgot about the money over 'ome! Only time I was ashore there
was in 1969 and they had half-way converted to whatever they were doing and
you got a collection of coins from before and after with all sorts of funny
names and what they were worth at that stage of the game. Wasn't worth
trying to understand it--easier to let them take what they wanted from your
pile of change and hope you weren't getting ripped off too badly. Same
procedure in most places except Italy where they kept giving out pay-phone
tokens as money.
On second thought giving them 99 cents for a dollar might mean losing our
shirts if they want 33 threpny bits for 99 cents before sliding us Manx
dollar bills. Ok, we need a new business plan.
Regards,
Barry
Jack Linthicum
One of the LSTs that took the Malayan army to the Congo in 1961 told of
one guy who wanted either 100 dollars or a thousand dollars for some
piece of art work. Someone had a bunch of semi-Monopoly money (either
from an advertisement or a game) and 'paid' the guy the amount he
wanted for some rare tribal art about two days old.
Alan Lothian
Fixer <paul.deek...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> In article <memo.2005060...@jgd.compulink.co.uk>,
> on Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:34 +0100 (BST),
> John Dallman j...@cix.co.uk attempted to say .....
>
> > In article <1117984574.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > mogg...@aol.com (Sarah H) wrote:
> >
> > > The eventual compromise was that he used my nickname "DQ" (it stands for
> > > "Dragonqueen" - the nickname given to me when I was BOFH on a cluster
> > > of VAXen).
> >
> > Hah! At work, and on home's computers, my user ID and e-mail address is
> > "jgd". I try to use the G because something over half the Dallmans I know
> > have J as an initial. I'm happy to be called John in person. But one chap
> > at works feels he's being informal and friendly when he calls me "jaygee".
> > By my age, I should at least be a full LT.
>
> One can't ignore that incident with the Admiral's daughter, sorry....
And in the cable tier of all places. Tch, tch
--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" Ibn Khaldun
My .mac.com address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try atlothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk
Brian Sharrock
> > in the room of ... Łdirections_for_finding_appointee ... requiring you
<Jack>
Well, this is the official U.S. Navy historical site.
</Jack>
Oh dear ... official US Navy site (?)... do they think
Robin Hood was a little red fox ... or that the men of Sherwood
were men in tights? I expect they hail that bloke Washington too.
{USA-ian even claim that Arnold Benedict was a traitor for ceasing
to be a disloyal rebel and returning to his oath-sworn duties
with the Crown! Whatever next?)
<Jack>
I can believe
that it has been vetted by historians, Colonials and Brits, and has a
certain ring of scholarly twinkieness to it. IE saying "five English
ports" rather than "cinq ports".
http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/triv4-5b.htm
"The "warrant" portion of the Warrant Officer's title comes from the
old French word warant that meant variously a protector, a defense and
an authorization. It is also the source of our modern word "warranty."
</jack>
So far so good, the word 'Warrant' has roots in an Authorisation.
As the Warrant itseld states ... "By Virtue of the power and authority
to me given .. ".
<Jack>
In 1040 when five English ports began furnishing warships to King
Edward the Confessor in exchange for certain privileges, they also
furnished crews whose officers were the Master, Boatswain, Carpenter
and Cook. Later these officers were "warranted" by the British
Admiralty.
</Jack>
As 'we' say over here ... the Crown issues Commissions and the
_Navy Board_ issues warrants. The first sentence in the above
quote bears no relation to the preceeding one.
{There may have been different maybe even early uses of the term
Warrant - but for _Warrant Officers_ the term was born with the
Pepys-ian Navy and the practises of the Navy Board (and those
authorised to act on its behalf). it should be noted that
the Confederation of Cinque Ports - were granted their rights and
privileges by the issue of a _ROYAL CHARTER_. A charter is not
a warrant. But before you leap to the defenc(s)e of these 'historians'
please note that they used the weasel-words ... Later these officers ...
or in-other-words these citizens (burghers) of the Limbs of the
Cinque Ports (villages and nearby towns in the hinterland of the Five
Ports who were answering the obligations of their Charter were _not_
holding _Royal Warrants_ at that time i.e. 13th Century!
BTW; the 'historians' actually write 'Later these officers were
"warranted" by the British Admiralty'; now, being warranted - certified
as being of good quality is not precisely the same as being a Warrant-holder
_and_ the 'British Admiralty' (ignoring the Admiralty/Navy Board ignorance)
couldn't possibely have been extant before the Union of Crowns.
<Jack>
They maintained and sailed the ships and were the standing
officers of the navy. Soldiers commanded by Captains would be on board
the ships to do the fighting but they had nothing to do with running
the ships. The word "soldiering" came about as a seaman's term of
contempt for the soldiers and anyone else who avoided shipboard duties.
The warranted officers were often the permanent members of the ships'
companies. They stayed with the ships in port between voyages as
caretakers supervising repairs and refitting. Other crewmen and
soldiers might change with each voyage. Early in the Fourteenth Century
the Purser joined the warrant officers. He was originally "the clerk of
burser." During the following centuries the Gunner, Surgeon, Chaplain,
Master-at-arms, Schoolmaster and others signed on."
</Jack>
I still maintain that your original statement about 13th Century
'Royal Warrants' intended to keep the lower classes in their place
is just wrong. Can you please give any cites for your hypothesis?
--
Brian
Jack Linthicum
http://www.biography.ms/Warrant_officer.html USA
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chief-Warrant-Officer Canada
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Warrant%20Officer UK
http://encycl.opentopia.com/W/WA/WAR
and a total of 54 references to the 13th Century as the point of
origin for the term "warrant" when describing naval appointments.
Peter H. Granzeau
<jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>As it says in this website there are no warrant officers in the Navy,
>per se. They are all Chief Warrant officers and as such may be
>addressed as Chief, a title all have to earn before the warrant is
>issued. http://www.answers.com/topic/warrant-officer
To which I say, "Oh, poo!"
Brian Sharrock
> > in the room of ... Łdirections_for_finding_appointee ... requiring you
<JACK>
http://www.biography.ms/Warrant_officer.html USA
</JACK
Couldn't get a response off this URL ... @ 06:00Z
<JACK>
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Chief-Warrant-Officer Canada
</JACK>
Rather interesting ... seems to be word for word what you originally
wrote (without attribution)... how dare they cite your words?
The phrase 'nascent _British_ Royal Navy' coupled with 13th Century
is an indication of the level of scholarship supporting this entry.
<JACK>
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Warrant%20Officer UK
</JACK>
Ding-Dong! Your exact words _again_! Still the same old rubbish
regurgitated!
<JACK>
http://encycl.opentopia.com/W/WA/WAR
</JACK>
WTFIH? The self same words again! Hmm; "nascent _British_ Royal Navy" ...
where have we seen that phrase before?
<JACK>
and a total of 54 references to the 13th Century as the point of
origin for the term "warrant" when describing naval appointments.
</JACK>
And not a _single_ citation of a thirteenth century 'Royal Warrant'
for a ship born position appertaining to a warrant-holder!
--
Brian
Peter McLelland
or through some delegated authority from the crown was introduced by the
Normans, and was widely used, taxes were collected under the authority of
royal warrants and so on. A warrant could be an authority, a protection and
even an entitlement to remuneration. It is quite likely then that those who
operated ships on behalf of the crown carried warrants signifying this, even
though the warrant may have been issued by the ship provider, who was
satisfying the duties resulting from some charter or other warrant.
Peter
Jack Linthicum
> > > in the room of ... £directions_for_finding_appointee ... requiring you
I will offer you a cite which is probably too complicated for you to
understand, you seem to revel in scoring touchdowns in cricket games. I
know you will get all bullshitty and say it doesn't say warrants for
manning ships but the way they manned ships in the 13th Century was by
impress and the contention of the ports like Deale and Dover was that
the king (John) was impressing men for his ships when that was the
feudal task of the Cinque ports.
I presume from your comments below that the phrase "nascent British
Royal Navy" has some disturbing qualties for you. Try "fledgling",
still the same stuff. Have you any royal 13th Century documents on the
internet to offer as proof they exist?
"Origin and Early History of the Warrant Officer
The rank of warrant officer has a long history. For example, evidence
suggests that Napoleon used warrant officers as communications links
between his commissioned officers and the rank and file soldiers.
The military grade of warrant officer dates back two centuries prior to
Columbus, during the fledgling years of the British Navy.
At that time, Nobles assumed command of the new Navy, adopting the Army
ranks of Lieutenant and Captain. These royal blood officers often had
no knowledge of life on board a ship, let alone how to navigate such a
vessel or operate the guns. They often relied on the technical
expertise and cooperation of a senior sailor who tended to the
technical aspects of running the ship and operating the cannons.
These sailors, sometimes referred to as 'Boat Mates' or 'Boswain Mates'
became indispensable to less experienced officers and were subsequently
rewarded with a Royal Warrant.
This Royal Warrant was a special designation, designed to set them
apart from other sailors, yet not violate the strict class system that
was so prevalent during the time. "
http://www.woaprc.20m.com/Hisframe.htm
http://library.beau.org/gutenberg/etext04/7pgaa10.txt
"At what time the pressing of men for the sea service of the Crown was
first resorted to in these islands it is impossible to determine.
There is evidence, however, that the practice was not only in vogue,
but firmly established as an adjunct of power, as early as the days of
the Saxon kings. It was, in fact, coeval with feudalism, of which it
may be described as a side-issue incidental to a maritime situation;
for though it is impossible to point to any species of fee, as
understood of the tenure of land, under which the holder was liable to
render service at sea, yet it must not be forgotten that the great
ports of the kingdom, and more especially the Cinque Ports, were from
time immemorial bound to find ships for national purposes, whenever
called upon to do so, in return for the peculiar rights and privileges
conferred upon them by the Crown. The supply of ships necessarily
involved the supply of men to sail and fight them, and in this supply,
or, rather, in the mode of obtaining it, we have undoubtedly the
origin of the later impress system."
King John was perhaps the first to clothe it in
words. Requisitioning the services of the mariners of Wales, a
notoriously disloyal body, he gave the warrant, issued in 1208, a
severely minatory turn. "Know ye for certain," it ran, "that if ye act
contrary to this, we will cause you and the masters of your vessels to
be hanged, and all your goods to be seized for our use."
At this point in the gradual subjection of the seaman to the needs of
the nation, defensive or the contrary, we are confronted by an event
as remarkable in its nature as it is epoch-making in its consequences.
Magna Charta was sealed on the 13th of June 1215, and within a year of
that date, on, namely, the 14th of April then next ensuing, King John
issued his commission to the barons of twenty-two seaports, requiring
them, in terms admitting of neither misconstruction nor compromise, to
arrest all ships, and to assemble those ships, together with their
companies, in the River of Thames before a certain day. [Footnote:
Hardy, _Rotuli Litterarum Clausarum_, 1833.] This wholesale
embargo upon the shipping and seamen of the nation, imposed as it was
immediately after the ensealing of Magna Charta, raises a question of
great constitutional interest. In what sense, and to what extent, was
the Charter of English Liberties intended to apply to the seafaring
man?
Essentially a tyrant and a ruthless promise-breaker, John's natural
cruelty would in itself sufficiently account for the dire penalties
threatened under the warrant of 1208; but neither his tyranny, his
faithlessness of character, nor his very human irritation at the
concessions wrung from him by his barons, can explain to our
satisfaction why, having granted a charter affirming and safeguarding
the liberties of, ostensibly, every class of his people, he should
immediately inflict upon one of those classes, and that, too, the one
least of all concerned in his historic dispute, the pains of a most
rigorous impressment. The only rational explanation of his conduct is,
that in thus acting he was contravening no convention, doing violence
to no covenant, but was, on the contrary, merely exercising, in
accordance with time-honoured usage, an already well-recognised,
clearly denned and firmly seated prerogative which the great charter
he had so recently put his hand to was in no sense intended to limit
or annul.
This view of the case is confirmed by subsequent events. Press
warrants, identical in every respect save one with the historic
warrant of 1216, continued to emanate from the Crown long after King
John had gone to his account, and, what is more to the point, to
emanate unchallenged. Stubbs himself, our greatest constitutional
authority, repeatedly admits as much. Every crisis in the destinies of
the Island Kingdom--and they were many and frequent--produced its
batch of these procuratory docum
Brian Sharrock
"Peter McLelland" <peter.m...@nospambae.com> wrote in message
news:42a94...@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
>
huge snip of repetitive 'stuff'
>
>> And not a _single_ citation of a thirteenth century 'Royal Warrant'
>> for a ship born position appertaining to a warrant-holder!
>>
> The use of the 'warrant' to confer authority to individuals either
> directly
> or through some delegated authority from the crown was introduced by the
> Normans, and was widely used, taxes were collected under the authority of
> royal warrants and so on. A warrant could be an authority, a protection
> and
> even an entitlement to remuneration. It is quite likely then that those
> who
> operated ships on behalf of the crown carried warrants signifying this,
> even
> though the warrant may have been issued by the ship provider, who was
> satisfying the duties resulting from some charter or other warrant.
>
> Peter
>
Even if one concedes your (dubious) point ... (quite likely..?) :)
What Jack stated was that 'the nascent _British_ Royal Navy' issued
'Royal Warrants' in the 13th Century for the express purpose of
differentiating the social classes of people ^W men serving aboard
ships. This I dispute. Jack has been unable to cite anything
which directly supports his statement. - I'm not surprised, as
I couldn't 'find' anything in a search at Kew. {iaw, the archivists
didn't bring me a cardboard box with a naval warrant earlier
than those of the restoration navy). [I've done family history
research in this field, trying to locate historical records of
ancestors that seem to have been air-brushed out of the record -
I was convinced that I'd locate a forebear on the Bayeux Tapestry
- but all I got was 'Hic Erat ... then some patching!)
There are many objections to Jack's statements;-
He has the distorting view of an American about social class
in the Royal Navy, no doubt its what he was taught - probably
believes that Bligh was a Captain and Christian was commissioned.
He can't recognise that there was no _British_ (within the context)
in the 13th Century let alone a nascent Royal Navy.
[If he'd said 'English', there might be a case to argue).
He parrots site-aifter-site which all use the phrase 'nascent
British Royal Navy ...' as some sort of authority.
--
Brian
Peter McLelland
A lot of stuff snipped
>At that time, Nobles assumed command of the new Navy, adopting the Army
>ranks of Lieutenant and Captain. These royal blood officers often had
>no knowledge of life on board a ship, let alone how to navigate such a
>vessel or operate the guns. They often relied on the technical
>expertise and cooperation of a senior sailor who tended to the
>technical aspects of running the ship and operating the cannons.
>These sailors, sometimes referred to as 'Boat Mates' or 'Boswain Mates'
>became indispensable to less experienced officers and were subsequently
>rewarded with a Royal Warrant.
>This Royal Warrant was a special designation, designed to set them
>apart from other sailors, yet not violate the strict class system that
>was so prevalent during the time. "
http://www.woaprc.20m.com/Hisframe.htm
The nobles probably had warrants too. The realitity was that until the
Tudors introduced 'Kings Ships' there was no navy and when fighting at sea
took place it was on merchant ships with soldiers embarked. The ships master
and mates would sail the ship and the soldiers would fight it. The concepts
officers as we know them came later. A warrant then was just an authority
from some one who had the power to give that authority, it may be the king
himself or some one appointed by him, probably by warrant again. Ships were
provided to the king at times of need either according to charters which
accorded certain freedoms in return for a service, or through the concept of
feudal service, which was also how armies were raised, each noble was
responsible for providing so many men, and he in turn would pass this down
in packages to those who held land from him.
Snipped bit about King John, which seems mainly to be about warrants as an
instruction which of course was another use of the term warrant, which was a
word introduced by the Normans, along with the feudal system which covers
either and authority or and instruction.
Peter
Jack Linthicum
Not me, the documents say "nascent British Royal Navy" but what do we
poor benighted Colonials know next to the demon scholarship of a
geneaology expert?
Didn't like the Gutenburg site, or as usual, didn't bother to read it?
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
jackli...@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum) wrote:
> I presume from your comments below that the phrase "nascent British
> Royal Navy"
It bothers me as well. The point being is that a "British Royal Navy"
does not exist and never has. We have a "Royal Navy" (except under
Cromwell, when we had an English Navy). the ships are technically the
property of the Crown.
Ken Young
Jack Linthicum
what bothers you "nascent" or "British"?
nascent \NAS-uhnt; NAY-suhnt\, adjective:
Beginning to exist or having recently come into existence; coming into
being.
Brit·ish Pronunciation (brtsh)
adj.
1.
a. Of or relating to Great Britain or its people, language, or culture.
b. Of or relating to the United Kingdom or the Commonwealth of Nations.
2. Of or relating to the ancient Britons.
n.
1. (used with a pl. verb) The people of Great Britain.
2. British English.
3. The Celtic language of the ancient Britons.
[Middle English Brittish, from Old English Bryttisc, relating to the
ancient Britons, from Bryttas, Britons, of Celtic origin.]
What seems to be the burr under the colective saddle of the
non-Americans commenting on this thread is that the warrant officer was
instituted to allow correct management of ships carrying royal troops.
Originally it worked in reverse, mesters of ships that were usually
merchantmen (both the ship and the man) were not gentlemen. Since
someone not a gentleman could not give an order to a gentleman, then
the warrant, originally from the provider of the ship, ie one of the
Cinque Ports, provided that barrier between the classes. It was
eventually a king's warrant as the original arrangement between the
Cinque Ports and Edward the Confessor (not a Norman, by the way) was
for the Cinque Ports to provide the ships and crews and the king to
provide the soldiers and their officers.