Arnheiter, Marcus A.
Jeff Crowell
: Does anybody know what became of Lt. Cdr M. A. Arnheiter? He was involved
: in a rather strange series of events aboard the USS Vance during the
: 1960's which lead to his removal from command and retirement from the
: navy. What has become of him since? Is he still around and what did he
: do with the rest of his working career? Thanks
: KEN KD6...@AOL.com
: PACKET ADDRESS KD6ISK @ W6PW-3.NOCA.CA.USA.NA
I know what happened to his ship... I was aboard USS Chandler when we sank
her with a Harpoon (we were the Harpoon Block C OCSOT platform).
Jeff
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Life isn't one damn thing after the other--it's the same damn
thing, again and again and again and again.
KD6ISK
Kim Cochrane
J. Benny
It has been a very long time since I have heard reference to LCDR
Arnheiter. I am going strictly on memory which is old and often faulty,
but here goes. There was a book published about the "rather strange
series of events" which led to Arnheiter's being relieved of command. It
makes for some interesting reading. As I recall, Arnheiter was
tranferred to Treasure Island, San Francisco for his ultimate processing
out; i.e., retirement. I seem to recall he broke his leg or some such
malady and ended up having a Medical Board. It seems to me that there
were a couple of other folks who led less then illustrious careers due to
the Arnheiter Affair. One who was very high on the totem pole and a
former NAVCAD classmate of Arnheiter.
The book written about these events is really very interesting and one
would do well to read it. Don't know if it's still in print, but is
probably available in the public library. A former neighbor of mine was
very close to these happenings and told me after reading the book, that
the material is quite factual although he could not go into great detail
with me as some of the matters were classified at the time.
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jbe...@primenet.com
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Kim Cochrane
the balance of his working career. The book is called The Arnheiter Affair
by Neil Sheehan. It is my understanding that it is long out of print.
--
ken cochrane
Joseph D. Mazza
Marcus A. by "J. Benny"@primenet.com
> would do well to read it. Don't know if it's still in print, but is
> probably available in the public library. A former neighbor of mine was
> very close to these happenings and told me after reading the book, that
> the material is quite factual although he could not go into great detail
> with me as some of the matters were classified at the time.
I concur! The book was titled _The Arnheiter Affair_ . Can't remember
the author. A must read for any military officer.
W Brad DeBow
Joseph D. Mazza <ma...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>I concur! The book was titled _The Arnheiter Affair_ . Can't remember
>the author. A must read for any military officer.
The author is "Neil Sheehan" in case anyone has to do some searching
for a copy.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= IIIII N N EEEEE L
Brad DeBow w...@inel.gov I N N N E L
Idaho National Engineering Laboratory I N N N EEEE L
Engineering Dept. (Putting the E in INEL) I N N N E L
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= IIIII N N EEEEE LLLLL
P90...@email.mot.com
>
> Arnheiter has made a second career out of trying to reverse the
> Navy's decision to let him go. His letters appear infrequently
> in such journals as _Navy Times_.
>
> Strayhorn
>
In reference may I add an indirect note. I read the book and came away
rather confused. I then met a co-worker who was an associate of Arnheiter
and a destroyer flotilla commander in Vietnam. He retired a commander
shortly after his last tour; forced out (quietly) mostly due to his very
agressive tactics - thus ignoring MacNamara's "rules of engagement".
Arnheiter may have been somewhat odd - the book may be an apologist
approach - However, even if biased, it left me with alot to think about.
For a parallel read SOLDIER. I was in LZ English when the alleged events
took place. The events and results are very parallel to what
happened to Arnheiter.
Note I'm not trying to defend Arnheiter - just note my utter confusion!!
In Vietnam (late 1969) I had my rifle put in an arms locker - we were
attacked.....(LZ ENGLISH around fall of 1969....probably November)
Rich Raspenti
Carey Cox
BTW, just what is it that this Arnheiter did? I may have missed the
beginning of this thread, so I apologize if this is rehashing.
Thanks,
Carey
--
Carey F. Cox | "Research is a blind man in a dark
Eng. Res. Ctr. for Comp. Field Sim. | room searching for a black cat,
ca...@erc.msstate.edu | which probably isn't there in the
( My views are my own... etc. ) | first place." - David F. Whitfield
P90...@email.mot.com
>
> BTW, just what is it that this Arnheiter did? I may have missed the
> beginning of this thread, so I apologize if this is rehashing.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carey
I suggest you read the book. essentially Arnheiter was to be the first captain
of the New Jersey in the Vietnam action. Due to some of his [Quirks] this was
denied and he ended up being court-martialed - eventually having to retire
from the service. He did some rather [unusual] activities while commanding the
Vance in Vietnam. To really understand it all you will have to understand the
war and how it was fought on the US side. It was a political war - not a
fighting war - and [my opinion] Arnheiter was one [of many] of the innocent
victims. For more background on the time read SOLDIER (173rd Ariborne Battalion
commander releived of command] And Bluecher (Spelling bad] Pueblo Incident
in various publications - even the US Naval Instute Proceedings - to get a
real flavor of what was happening at the time.
It is a complex issue that really cannot be adequately explained in this small
note. Arnheiter was not without blame - but should he have been denied command
of such a special ship. The decision was POLITICAL as you will begin to
understand as you read the history about the time. While I never met
Arnheiter, I have met with other(s) who have suffered the same fate. It
will be difficult to explain (for me) to someone who has not experienced
the Vietnam era. I joined as a young warrier chomping at the bit to do my
part. I left very disolusioned and angry/frustrated. Many a good naval
officer was done in for using sound and agressive naval tactics. Some
of Arnheiter's tactics may not have bee so sound [conventional???], but
they were effective - IF WE WERE REALLY FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!
Hope this helps a little - It is a little biased - brings up alot of
less than happy memories.
Rich Raspenti
Joseph D. Mazza
Marcus A. by P90...@email.mot.com
this small
> note. Arnheiter was not without blame - but should he have been
denied command
> of such a special ship. The decision was POLITICAL as you will begin to
> understand as you read the history about the time. While I never met
> Arnheiter, I have met with other(s) who have suffered the same fate. It
> will be difficult to explain (for me) to someone who has not experienced
> the Vietnam era. I joined as a young warrier chomping at the bit to do my
> part. I left very disolusioned and angry/frustrated. Many a good naval
> officer was done in for using sound and agressive naval tactics. Some
> of Arnheiter's tactics may not have bee so sound [conventional???], but
> they were effective - IF WE WERE REALLY FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!
We WERE really fighting a war. A political war. As ALL wars are.
I suggest you read Karl von Clausewitz's _On War_, considered my many to
be the best western work on warfare. (It is used as a primary text at
the Naval War College.)
While I understand and sympathize with warriors eager to reach the best
military solution to a conflict, it is naive to think that wars aren't
political or that political ends aren't at least as important as
military ones -- probably more important. Otherwise, what's the point
of fighting? As Clausewitz points out, war is merely the extension of
politics by other means. (He goes on to say that you can't expect to
plan a campaign "without the Prince being in the room.")
Professional military people must find the proper balance between
military means and political ends (then get the Prince to agree!). In
the case of Vietnam, the scales clearly tipped too far to the political
side -- and it's shameful that so many good men died unnecessairily
because of that. But politics will never be separate from warfare. Nor
should they be, according to Clausewitz.
But back to Arnheiter. His tactical sins were nothing compared to his
administrative ones. His well earned "loose cannon" reputation far
preceeded his exploits off the coast of Vietnam. His misuse of welfare
and recreation funds alone could have landed him in Leavenworth. And
his "unconventional" tactics included lying to his superiors about his
position and intentions. That's more than "unconventional." That's
illegal, dishonest, unethical, and dangerous. To fool the enemy was
part of Arnheiter's job. Not to fool his boss!
-----Joe
All opinions mine alone.
J. Benny
> But back to Arnheiter. His tactical sins were nothing compared to his
> administrative ones. His well earned "loose cannon" reputation far
> preceeded his exploits off the coast of Vietnam. His misuse of welfare
> and recreation funds alone could have landed him in Leavenworth. And
> his "unconventional" tactics included lying to his superiors about his
> position and intentions. That's more than "unconventional." That's
> illegal, dishonest, unethical, and dangerous. To fool the enemy was
> part of Arnheiter's job. Not to fool his boss!
Adding to the above, Arnheiter also exposed his crew to hostile fire
because of his violation of official orders. He also received his orders
to command in an unconventional manner.
I would never want to try to emulate Arnheiter in any way and would never
equate him to CDR Bucher or some of the other political scapegoats of the
Vietnam era or sympathize with Arnheiter as has been suggested by other
posters. He makes for excellent reading for a management case study of
what not to do.
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jbe...@primenet.com
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William H. Roberts
>I suggest you read the book. essentially Arnheiter was to be the first captain
>of the New Jersey in the Vietnam action.
Absolutely incorrect. _LCDR_ Arnheiter was far, far too junior for a
battleship.
>He did some rather [unusual] activities while commanding the
>Vance in Vietnam.
Such as, for example, forcing his XO to nominate him for a Silver Star.
>Arnheiter was not without blame - but should he have been denied command
>of such a special ship.
Try again -- Arnheiter was a Lieutenant Commander. That's an O-4 -- two
grades junior to the CO of a battleship. To get command of a BB, he would
have had to have done a super job in VANCE, been promoted, done a super job in
a CDR command, been promoted again, and been lucky.
>Some of Arnheiter's tactics may not have been so sound [conventional???],
>but they were effective - IF WE WERE REALLY FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!
Tactics like sending your motor whaleboat toward the beach to draw fire?
J. Benny
[snip]
> Such as, for example, forcing his XO to nominate him for a Silver Star.
I had forgotten about this little incident.
> >Arnheiter was not without blame - but should he have been denied command
> >of such a special ship.
>
> Try again -- Arnheiter was a Lieutenant Commander. That's an O-4 -- two
> grades junior to the CO of a battleship. To get command of a BB, he would
> have had to have done a super job in VANCE, been promoted, done a super job in
> a CDR command, been promoted again, and been lucky.
The commissioning of the New Jersey was a big, big deal. If my old
memory serves me, I think it was a CAPT Alexander who was to command her
upon commisioning. He was the pal of Arnheiter who circumvented regular
command at sea selection process that enabled Arnheiter to get unusual
orders to command Vance. Once all of Arnheiter's activities became
known, Capt Alexander fell from grace and never commanded New Jersey. I
can't remember who took her helm upon commissioning.
> >Some of Arnheiter's tactics may not have been so sound [conventional???],
> >but they were effective - IF WE WERE REALLY FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!
>
> Tactics like sending your motor whaleboat toward the beach to draw fire?
Exactly! This man was a walking time bomb and had absolutely no business
subjecting his crew to harm's way. His purpose was for personal glory
and not for helping to win a battle.
It may be interesting to note that it was the Hospital Corpsman aboard
Vance who finally was able to bring Arnhieter's atrocities to the
attention of higher authority. He should have been awarded a medal for
taking such a risk.
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jbe...@primenet.com
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Benjamin Gregory Ramm
don't know who this guy was, but it seems he had some remarkable moments
in his life. Since I have somewhere on the order of 100-plus pages of
reading a day as I full time student, I don't have time to read another
book. Consequently, I would greatly appreciate some small amount of
background. Of course I assume that someone else has the time to
actually write up such a summary, but I can always hope.
The thread is fascinating, and I am picking up on things, but not as
quickly as I would like.
Thanks
Benjamin Ramm
P90...@email.mot.com
>
> >I suggest you read the book. essentially Arnheiter was to be the first captain
> >of the New Jersey in the Vietnam action.
>
> Absolutely incorrect. _LCDR_ Arnheiter was far, far too junior for a
> battleship.
My Mistake here - Time has done a bit in dimming my memory of
events. Sorry about that - It was corrected by post of another.
> >He did some rather [unusual] activities while commanding the
> >Vance in Vietnam.
>
> Such as, for example, forcing his XO to nominate him for a Silver Star.
Yep - Bad and Wrong - However, not unusual and I've seen it done on
numerous occasions. Almost standard practice at the time! That is how
many an officer managed to get his/her next promotion. That is why
medals don't mean much to me any more. I got mine - but the one I
really earned I was denied - because I was not one of the "in" group.
What would you "earn" for saving 10+ lives and destroying a VC unit in
the process - all on own initiative - almost got sent to prison
instead! My reward was the thanks of the captain in charge of the group.
(He got a Bronze star with "V" for the action).
> >Arnheiter was not without blame - but should he have been denied command
> >of such a special ship.
>
> Try again -- Arnheiter was a Lieutenant Commander. That's an O-4 -- two
> grades junior to the CO of a battleship. To get command of a BB, he would
> have had to have done a super job in VANCE, been promoted, done a super job in
> a CDR command, been promoted again, and been lucky.
>
Again my error.... It was corrected on some other post...I always wondered
how he as a LTCDR could have been considered....Thinks I got my people
a bit mixed. After reading the other post my memory of that came back. Real
sad story.
> >Some of Arnheiter's tactics may not have been so sound [conventional???],
> >but they were effective - IF WE WERE REALLY FIGHTING A WAR!!!!!
>
> Tactics like sending your motor whaleboat toward the beach to draw fire?
>
>
Yes he did that and it was unsound - but no more than sending a DDE in close to
engage the enemy while leaving DDG/DD out to reply. The whaleboat is
harder to hit and less expensive to replace. Also (for the time) less
difficult to explain since you can "hide" the trail. Not a great idea,
but it worked????!!!!!???? (sort of). Before you actually condemn the
action CAREFULLY read the reports on the action - a better understanding
of what REALLY went on may appear. Note also that the ones on the whaleboat
were NOT volunteers - Remember the story of I want volunteers - you, you and
you. There is more on that incident than meets the eye. I think by that
time Arnheiter was totally out of it. Remember Absolute Power corrupts
Absolutely. Well it did, I guess.
I sent a private post to a response that was also made here. Their I explained
a few other incidents that I know of - from my father to others I fought with
and one of my own. This to give further background on what was really going on
at the time. If possible Please post here (I do not have a copy saved).
What I've been trying to explain is not to judge things from what you may
have read, especially if from news media sources. The "facts" can be and are
distorted. Read about the events always IN THE CONTEXT OF VIETNAM and how
it was conducted.