Glasgow is the Clyde ....
Eugene Griessel
before they get sent off for pulping - and may retain any that catch
my fancy. Last night got a load of books - and one caught my eye. A
vernacular history of Glasgow. Publishd in 1962. Idly perusing it the
following phrase caught my eye: "during the second world war more
ships were launched in the Clyde than all the shipyards of America put
together".
Of course this merely compares number of ships and ignores tonnage so
it is a fairly meaningless statement - even if a definition of a
"ship" does not come into it.
However I wonder how much truth the statement holds. I find it a
little difficult to swallow, especially with Kaiser's mob launching a
ship every three days. Anyone care to come up with some figures?
Apologies for the marine content, and lack of naval.
Eugene L Griessel
There are three kinds of death in this world. There's heart
death, there's brain death, and there's being off the network.
David McArthur
database at http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/search.asp
Counting up from 1939 to 45 total comes to 922 ships (...or 686 ships
from '41-45 ;-)
It counts all shapes and sizes from sloops, LSTs up to carriers.
Cheers
David
Keith W
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
news:44a4f62a...@news.uunet.co.za...
>I have an agreement with a library that I receive all their discards
> before they get sent off for pulping - and may retain any that catch
> my fancy. Last night got a load of books - and one caught my eye. A
> vernacular history of Glasgow. Publishd in 1962. Idly perusing it the
> following phrase caught my eye: "during the second world war more
> ships were launched in the Clyde than all the shipyards of America put
> together".
>
> Of course this merely compares number of ships and ignores tonnage so
> it is a fairly meaningless statement - even if a definition of a
> "ship" does not come into it.
>
> However I wonder how much truth the statement holds. I find it a
> little difficult to swallow, especially with Kaiser's mob launching a
> ship every three days. Anyone care to come up with some figures?
>
There's actually an online database of Clyde built ships at
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/search.asp
You can enter a year and get a list of all ships built that year.
It lists the ship name, type, owner, shipyard and final disposition
In 1943 the ships built included
1 Aircraft Transport
1 Algerine Class minesweeper
3 Boom defence vessels
3 Coasters
2 Crane ships
3 Cruisers
1 Cruiser Minelayer
1 Escort Carrier
13 destroyers
3 General Cargo ships
3 merchant Aircraft carriers
2 naval trawlers
4 Passenger Cargo Vessels
8 frigates
2 Salvage Vessels
15 Sloops
5 Submarines
A decent haul but far short of the output of US shipyards that year.
Keith
Brian Sharrock
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11516644...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
claim is for the aggregate of 'during the War' (1939~1945) compared to
'American shipyards' (1941/2(?) ~ 1945).
What were the aggregate numbers ?
--
Brian
Keith W
"Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:c%9pg.7225$v4....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:11516644...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>>
>>
>>
>> A decent haul but far short of the output of US shipyards that year.
>>
>> Keith
>>
> Interesting statistic ... for one mid-war year ... but presumably the
> book's claim is for the aggregate of 'during the War' (1939~1945) compared
> to 'American shipyards' (1941/2(?) ~ 1945).
> What were the aggregate numbers ?
>
I've pointed you to the source !
Keith
Brian Sharrock
'American shipyards'?
You cited a database for Clyde-side built ships.
That's half of the two 'sides'.
Where did you 'point .. to the (other) source'?
BTW; as a Liverpudlian, who watched Cammel-Lairds launchings, you haven't
got any invested interest; but, as does Eugene;- "I wonder how much truth
the statement holds".
--
Brian
David McArthur
US shipyards produced approx 4,600 ships 41-45.
David
Keith W
>
> "Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:11516756...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>>
>> "Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:c%9pg.7225$v4....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
>>>
>>> "Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:11516644...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A decent haul but far short of the output of US shipyards that year.
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>> Interesting statistic ... for one mid-war year ... but presumably the
>>> book's claim is for the aggregate of 'during the War' (1939~1945)
>>> compared to 'American shipyards' (1941/2(?) ~ 1945).
>>> What were the aggregate numbers ?
>>>
>>
>> I've pointed you to the source !
>>
>> Keith
>>
> AIUI; Eugene cited 'a book' which made a claim of Clyde-side versus
> 'American shipyards'?
> You cited a database for Clyde-side built ships.
> That's half of the two 'sides'.
> Where did you 'point .. to the (other) source'?
>
The figures for US output are easily accessible via a
Google search
Try http://www.coltoncompany.com/shipbldg/statistics/deliver3.htm
For starters
It gives US output for 1943 as 1,661 merchant ships totalling 12.5 million
tons
and 608 naval vessels totalling 1.5 million tons
> BTW; as a Liverpudlian, who watched Cammel-Lairds launchings, you haven't
> got any invested interest; but, as does Eugene;- "I wonder how much truth
> the statement holds".
>
You must draw your own conclusions but the US had a MUCH larger
industrial base than Clydeside.
Keith
Eugene Griessel
I'm not sure that the source Keith quotes has all the shipyard outputs
- I seem to recall looking there some time back and seeing a
disclaimer about having all the records. There were 14 miles of
shipyards up and down the Clyde. Even in the sixties I think
something like more than 1/2 a million were employed there.
Personally I do think the book is either exaggerating or quoting a
local urban legend. The author was better known for his crime and
science fiction novels, I believe.
Eugene L Griessel
Power is the by-product of understanding.
Jacob Bronowski
William Black
"Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
> I'm not sure that the source Keith quotes has all the shipyard outputs
> - I seem to recall looking there some time back and seeing a
> disclaimer about having all the records. There were 14 miles of
> shipyards up and down the Clyde. Even in the sixties I think
> something like more than 1/2 a million were employed there.
Not to mention the Greenock yards, that are on the Clyde but not usually
described as part of 'Clydeside'.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Douglas MacFarlane
willia...@hotmail.co.uk says...
I think if you look at the lists of ships in the site mentioned they have
entries for yards in Greenock and Port Glasgow, so they seem to cover
fairly far down the river. How complete the records are is unclear
however.
Douglas
David McArthur
the Scott Lithgow Yard in Greenock/Port Glasgow was one of the largest
on the Clyde.
David McArthur
Kirkintilloch which is on the Forth-Clyde canal...
Vince
> "Eugene Griessel" <eugene@dynagen..co..za> wrote in message
> news:44a53dcb...@news.uunet.co.za...
>> I'm not sure that the source Keith quotes has all the shipyard outputs
>> - I seem to recall looking there some time back and seeing a
>> disclaimer about having all the records. There were 14 miles of
>> shipyards up and down the Clyde. Even in the sixties I think
>> something like more than 1/2 a million were employed there.
>
> Not to mention the Greenock yards, that are on the Clyde but not usually
> described as part of 'Clydeside'.
>
Whenever I was in Glasgow, Greenock was "Clydeside"
IIRC "Scotts" was always a clydeside builder
Vince
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
US ship production for the WWII period was roughly 6,000 ships.
http://www.usmm.net/shipbuild.html
--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney
Fred J. McCall
:Some US stats: H.J. Kaiser's yards alone produced 1,490 ships. In total
:US shipyards produced approx 4,600 ships 41-45.
And about another 1400 in 1939-1940 (the figure I see for 1939-mid1945
is right around 6,000).
Almost half of those (around 2700+ were 'Libery ships' transports.
Some 600 warships were also built.
Dale Farmer
USN had something like 1800 ships directly involved in the landings on
Okinawa. They had a few in the rest of the worlds oceans at the same
time, and production of smaller ships was still at full blast in
preparation of the invasion of the Japanese home islands.
The claim could be true on a technicality, that being all the royal
navy ships built in the US during WW2 were not officially launched until
they made it to the UK and were 'launched' there.
--Dale
Brian Sharrock
"Dale Farmer" <da...@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:Eikpg.843$cd3...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
big snip
> The claim could be true on a technicality, that being all the royal navy
> ships built in the US during WW2 were not officially launched until they
> made it to the UK and were 'launched' there.
>
> --Dale
Hmm, that raises another question; AIUI, many ships destined for the RN were
built in USA - ( my father and uncle served on one such built in Newport ),
how were such ships flagged? Your statement infers that they
couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't have worn a White Ensign. [ AIUI, new
construction 'war'ships will wear a Red Ensign (Merchant) during sea trails
and only hoist the White Ensign on commissioning ] Did such ships cross the
Atlantic wearing a 'Stars and Stripes' - until "they made it to the UK and
were 'launched' there"?
--
Brian
Dale Farmer
method that would allow the original claim to be true.
--Dale
Brian Sharrock
Ah! Now I 'see'; you were speculating (aka: making something up)!
--
Brian
Weatherlawyer
> > I have no knowledge of how it was handled. I was speculating on a
> > method that would allow the original claim to be true.
>
> Ah! Now I 'see'; you were speculating (aka: making something up)!
And how would a badly damaged ship, repaired in Clydeside and
relaunched be counted? I imagine there was a tremendous trade in
refitting clapped out old flotsam in that era.
Wasn't there some sort of rapid handling school for crews there, that
needed bringing up to scratch as they were too inexperienced to count
as real sailors? Set up for the merchant navy and run by the RN?
I'm not suggesting they brought their own boats for launching or
whatever. Just curious about the state of affairs at the time. It's one
thing to turn out ships by the mile, quite another to find people to
drive them.