Grammar: Does "ml" take a singular or plural verb?
Bill Bentsen
I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
sentence I'd transcribed was:
Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
right and left pleural cavities.
They'd asked that I change it to:
Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid _is_ found in the
right and left pleural cavities.
Now I was a technical writer for about 15 years at an airline, plus I'm
an ex-English teacher. I'd always considered more than 1 ml to be
plural. This sentence simplified is: 100 ml are found in the cavities.
I realize that "ml" may be either milliliter or milliliters; however, I
just read in _MT Guide Do's and Don'ts_ chapter 25.19 Units of Measure
that the verb must always be singular when dealing with cc, ml, gm,
etc.
That's about all they say on this subject; however, I'm now a little
unsure of myself (I know that those of you who know me can't believe
THAT)! I've checked the standard grammar works (Chicago, MLA, Gregg)
and even AMA Manual of Style, but none addresses this particular issue.
I don't have AAMT BOS (because it's too expensive), but if one of you
rich MTs out there (okay, maybe just one of you MTs out there) could
check it for me, I'd appreciate it.
Also, what are your thoughts on this subject? I still think that a
plural subject should generate a plural verb. Seems as though any
milliliters over 1 would be plural, eh?
Bill Bentsen
Toni Mercadante
Bentsen ) writes:
>
>Hi, guys,
>
>I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>sentence I'd transcribed was:
>
> Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
> right and left pleural cavities.
>
>They'd asked that I change it to:
>
> Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid _is_ found in the
> right and left pleural cavities.
>
>Now I was a technical writer for about 15 years at an airline, plus
>I'm an ex-English teacher. I'd always considered more than 1 ml to be
>plural. This sentence simplified is: 100 ml are found in the
>cavities.
>
>I realize that "ml" may be either milliliter or milliliters; however,
>I just read in _MT Guide Do's and Don'ts_ chapter 25.19 Units of
>Measure that the verb must always be singular when dealing with cc,
>ml, gm, etc.
>
_MT Guide Do's and Don'ts_, 25-3, says to treat a unit of measure as a
singular collective noun. One of the examples given: "Fourty
milliequivalents of KCl was given.
_AAMT Book of Style_, p. 352, subject-verb agreement, states that units
of measure are collective singular nouns and take singular verbs. Their
example: "Twenty milliequivalents of KCl was given."
Gregg Reference Manual, 1024, p. 217 states, "When subjects expressing
periods of time, amounts of money, or quantities represent a total
amount, use singular verbs. When these subjects represent a number of
individual units, use plural verbs."
Hope this helps.
Toni
Definitely not rich, but I would be if I were more sure of myself and
didn't have to spend so much on reference books <G>.
Bill Bentsen
Mercadante) writes:
>
>In <46obbi$g...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> bben...@ix.netcom.com (Bill
>Bentsen ) writes:
>>
>>I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>>casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>>sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>
>> Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>> right and left pleural cavities.
>>
>>They'd asked that I change it to:
>>
>> Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid _is_ found in the
>> right and left pleural cavities.
>>
Toni Writes:
>
>_MT Guide Do's and Don'ts_, 25-3, says to treat a unit of measure as a
>singular collective noun. One of the examples given: "Forty
>milliequivalents of KCl was given.
>
>_AAMT Book of Style_, p. 352, subject-verb agreement, states that
units
>of measure are collective singular nouns and take singular verbs.
Their
>example: "Twenty milliequivalents of KCl was given."
Crack me up! It looks like Fordney and Diehl et al (MT Guide) and the
guys at AAMT were drinking in the same bar -- but at different tables.
Look at their examples!
***
I guess I'll have to change my views on collective nouns now! Sorta
like group, assembly, class, committee, etc. We'll just add gm, cc and
ml to it! Tee hee!
Thanks Toni
Bill Bentsen
Toni Mercadante
Bentsen ) writes:
>
>Crack me up! It looks like Fordney and Diehl et al (MT Guide) and the
>guys at AAMT were drinking in the same bar -- but at different tables.
>Look at their examples!
Yeh, I was giggling a little as I was typing them. See? All Mary had
to say was "Funny how these books just don't get together" and voila!
Toni
ALISHA9999
I agree with you that a singular/plural should take a singular/plural for
ml.
However, I was told that 500 ml was considered a *single unit* rather than
a plural and that was why I was being asked to type "500 ml ... was given"
rather than "were given." I disagree, but then who am I - only the person
who transcribes the dictation. :) Most of the time, the doctors for whom
I transcribe seldom say *ml* - they say *cc*, which is another can of
worms.
How about women having a *tubal ligation* or children having a
*tonsillectomy*? There are two fallopian tubes that are *ligated* and
there are usually two tonsils that are *-ectomied* so why don't we type
*tubal ligationS* and *tonsillectomIES*???
Will look forward to other comments.
Alisha Henri
CDoozle
>>I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>>casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>>sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>>right and left pleural cavities.
>>They'd asked that I change it to:
>>Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid _is_ found in the
>>right and left pleural cavities.
>>I realize that "ml" may be either milliliter or milliliters; however, I
>>just read in _MT Guide Do's and Don'ts_ chapter 25.19 Units of Measure
>>that the verb must always be singular when dealing with cc, ml, gm,
>>etc.
Bill:
This is a subject that's "near and dear" to my heart. Years ago I did
something
similar, I think with cc, and the QA person for the service I contract for
sent
the report back with a big notation of:
VOLUME DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A PLURAL!!!!!
As you can imagine, I've never forgotten it! :) But, I certainly
empathize with
your predicament. I've checked the Harbrace College Handbook, Saunders
Manual
of Medical Transcription, and even dug out the book on medical
transcription
provided by AHIMA when I did the ART ISP years ago, and NONE of them
address this issue!
The closest "analysis" I can offer is that it's single because it IS
considered
a "unit of measure," unit being one, regardless of how many cc, mL, or
whatever.
Hey, it sounds good!
I'll be real anxious to see what other responses come through on this
thread.
Cathie
Thom Foulks
>I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb.
Newspaper and Timestyle have caught up with you, Bill.
A collective reference does not break down to plurality, unless there is need to
refer to components of it. The reference remains singular, because you are
referring to the whole content of the reference.
In a broader sense, it's your stamp collection; not your stamps collection,
regardless of how many are involved.
I agree that's not what was taught in school a few decades ago. Time marches
on.
Thom
JULIANNE WEIGHT
: I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
: sentence I'd transcribed was:
: Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
: right and left pleural cavities.
Bill --
What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
=============\ /==============\ /===================
Julie Weight -- suffering from overpass anxiety
jul...@netcom.com
==========================================================
JULIANNE WEIGHT
: How about women having a *tubal ligation* or children having a
: *tonsillectomy*? There are two fallopian tubes that are *ligated* and
: there are usually two tonsils that are *-ectomied* so why don't we type
: *tubal ligationS* and *tonsillectomIES*???
Because when you say bilateral, you've already indicated that the
procedure is being performed singularly two times. Does that make
sense? Bilateral tubal ligation -- one FT ligated, then the other.
Bilateral tonsillectomy -- on tonsil removed, then the other. If there
was more than one structure on each side, then it would be plural.
For example, bilateral hernia repair = one hernia repair on the right,
one hernia repair on the left. Hernia repairs = two hernias, same side.
Mary Morken
Thanks for starting this subject, I'll add it to the grammar page on
the web. I think it's a very commonly confused matter....all 3 liters!
Thanks for the Aids drug site too, I'll add that link to MT Daily.
We just get richer and richer.
And about your being right handed, maybe you're ambidextrous and
don't know it, who knows. :)
Mary
Elizabeth Hug
>
>Bill Bentsen (bben...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>: casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>: sentence I'd transcribed was:
>
>: Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>: right and left pleural cavities.
>
>Bill --
>
>What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
>
>
For what it's worth, I agree with Julie.
Liz
--
<@> /\_/\ __ A house without a cat is not a home!
| = o_o =_______ \ \
\|/ __^ __( \.__) ) Liz Hug
\|/ <____>___(_____)____/ Med-Elite Transcriptions
Flourtown, PA 19031
email: hug...@ix.netcom.com
Bill Bentsen
writes:
>In <juliew8D...@netcom.com> jul...@netcom.com (JULIANNE WEIGHT)
writes:
>
>>
>>Bill Bentsen (bben...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>>: casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>>: sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>
>>: Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>>: right and left pleural cavities.
>>
>>Bill --
>>
>>What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
>>
>>
>
>For what it's worth, I agree with Julie.
>
>Liz
>--
the subject's really milliliters, a collective noun like group, family,
etc.
Look at it this way:
A collection of old hats is found in the attic.
A = article adjective
collection = subject (collective noun; singular)
of old hats = prepositional phrase
of = preposition
old = adjective modifier of noun, hats
hats = object of preposition
is found = singular verb, passive with singular, collection
in the attic = prepositional phrase
Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid IS found in the
right and left pleural cavities.
Good Lord! I've got such a headache! Liz, we NEED your brother who's
an English professor!
Bill
Toni Mercadante
Bentsen ) writes:
>>>: The sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>>
>>>:Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>>>:right and left pleural cavities.
>>>
>>In <juliew8D...@netcom.com> jul...@netcom.com (JULIANNE
WEIGHT)>writes:
>>>What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
>>
>>In <46r5p1$m...@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> hug...@ix.netcom.com
>>(Elizabeth Hug)writes:
>>
>>For what it's worth, I agree with Julie.
>
The way I read it is: "of yellow-tan serous fluid" is a prepositional
phrase. Fluid is the object of the preposition and as such cannot be
the subject of the sentence. I believe the subject is "40 ml," a
collective noun, which would take a singular verb.
This is only my opinion based on what I "think" I learned in the dim
past. It's been a long time since I took English 101 in adult ed., and
perhaps it's time I took a refresher course. Do you think there's such
a thing as very adult ed.? 8-)
Toni
Elizabeth Hug
>>>: Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in the
>>>
>>>
>>>What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>Tee hee! What a monster I've started, eh? Five'll get you ten that
>the subject's really milliliters, a collective noun like group, family,
>etc.
>
>an English professor!
>
>Bill
>
I've forwarded the entire string on to my brother (without exerpts) on
his e-mail and will let you know what he responds. However, I must say
in advance that the last time I consulted him (re punctuation inside
quote marks) he said he thought we all needed to get a life, that we
were spending entirely too much time looking for documentation of (what
he felt was) the mundane. Can you imagine??!!! ;-)
JULIANNE WEIGHT
: Tell Dr. Liz's Brother that this is a point of pride! Imagine how I
: felt when the DOC corrected my verb agreement! (And he got it right to
: boot!) Of course, I've pointed out things to him about his dictating
: that there were no visible scars on the abdomen, then describing a
: recent cholecystectomy incision. (Perhaps it was on the leg or
: something!) Perhaps it's tit-for-tat for him! :)
Let's here for these down-and-dirty arguments with clients! I had a
doctor tell me that desiccation was spelled two "s", one "c". We
actually got to the point of pulling down a dictionary and looking it
up! (I refuse to spell something wrong just on a doc's say-so!)
Martha L. Friedman
Elizabeth Hug <hug...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <juliew8D...@netcom.com> jul...@netcom.com (JULIANNE WEIGHT) writes:
>
>>
>>: I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>>: sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>
>>: right and left pleural cavities.
>>
>>Bill --
>>
>>What's the subject? I get the subject FLUID, which IS found.
>>
>>
>
fluid". The prepositional phrase modifies the subject which is
100 ml. My mother is an English teacher and I can see a diagram of
this sentence in my head. I think it is a curse.
Bill Bentsen
>>>: I just received a fax this morning from one of my accounts. They
>>>: casually mentioned a request to change the number on a verb. The
>>>: sentence I'd transcribed was:
>>>
>>>: Approximately 100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid are found in
the
>>>: right and left pleural cavities.
>>>
Thought you guys might like a response I got from posting this on
alt.usage.english:
I'm no grammarian, but it seems to me that "Approximately
100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid" is a noun phrase acting as
the singular subject of the sentence, thus calling for "is."
Anyway, it's convenient to think so, because that way "ml" and
"fluid" don't have to fight over who's the most important noun.
Roger Vance
10-31-95
--
***
Tee hee! I don't want "ml" nor "fluid" to fight over who's more
important either!
Bill
Mary Morken
Bill,
Fun, but your grammarian's comment is not very helpful, because "100
ml is obtained" has only one noun and still calls for "is." "and 2 cc
was given." --Mary
Bill Bentsen
Morken ) writes:
>
>
>Bill,
> Fun, but your grammarian's comment is not very helpful, because "100
>ml is obtained" has only one noun and still calls for "is." "and 2 cc
>was given." --Mary
>
>>I'm no grammarian, but it seems to me that "Approximately
>>100 ml of yellow-tan serous fluid" is a noun phrase acting as
>>the singular subject of the sentence, thus calling for "is."
>>Anyway, it's convenient to think so, because that way "ml" and
>>"fluid" don't have to fight over who's the most important noun.
>
I know, I know. The newsgroup alt.usage.english is fun to read;
however, they are much better at dueling with the language than
actually being grammarians! <g> I just thought that this particular
response was funny -- especially the part about the nouns fighting over
who's the most important one! <g>
I got dozens of replies from that newsgroup; however, not once did
anyone refer to a collective noun. I did get losts of examples of why
this statement took a singular verb though.
As an example, I received the following:
"Compare: '$100,000 of aid _has_ been donated to the Third World.'
"It is the aid that has been donated; it is unlikely that the sum
really was made up of 100,000 dollar coins.
"Contrast: 'Ten thousand dollars _were_ melted down and the metal
reused by the mint.'
"Here the subject is the ten thousand dollar coins; hence the verb is
plural.
Unquote
This guy was from Canada -- note the use of a dollar coin. Still, he
was just describing the differences between a collective noun and a
non-collective noun (or is that an acollective noun? <g>), but not
actually saying it.
In our example, "Approximately 100 ml of fluid" is a noun phrase with
the subject "100 ml," a collective singular noun thought of as a single
group of 100 of those little bitty mLs floating around. The group of
mLs takes the singular verb "is found." Of course this makes sense
after all of this discussion. It's just getting really funny now! <g>
Funny as most stuff does after midnight and a couple of beers!
Bill