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MD vs M.D.

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Mary Morken

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Feb 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/6/96
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Someone wrote me E-mail that the AMA Guide says MD without the periods
is the proper format. If this is so, apparently a lot of doctors are
not following it. What do you think? I'm going to talk to my QA MD
about this.

Mary

Bill Bentsen

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Feb 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/6/96
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Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and the one who pays ...

Bill

Lady J1613

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Feb 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/6/96
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Mary -

Also, my old timey AAMT guide says MD is the "preferred" form - but I'm
with you, they'd have to go in with liquid paper and forcibly remove my
periods from M.D.

I must admit, however, that I am so prehistoric that the young
transcriptionist who took over my supervisory job when I left returned all
my OP notes because I had said "trochar" instead of "trocar". I had to
show it to her in a book that was so old it nearly fell apart when we
opened it! Now I'm showing my age, huh? :}

Also, I've been talking to Dee, who is dying to get on AOL, and owns the
outside service where I work part-time - she says she thinks we would get
complaints from our clients if we gave them MD instead of M.D.

Becky

ESTHER JANE STORVOLD

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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Many physicians here in our area are opting for no periods. Some still
want the "old way". Our provinces now have no periods when addressing
letters such as BC (British Columbia). That's what keeps our job
interesting.... just trying to keep up with the latest styles. I use both
the Do's and Don'ts and AAMT Book of Style...sometimes they contradict
each other. I just tell my students "as long as you have a
reference"...however it will depend on where they work and if that
workplace is open to "out with the old, and in with the new".

Esther

Mary Morken

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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Hi Esther,
Good to hear about MT in Canada for a change!
I talked to the QA MD (yes, we have an MD doing QA) at my company,
and she said New England Journal of Medicine (highly respected journal)
still uses M.D. but JAMA uses MD and has since at least 1989. She
estimates that 80% of the medical journals have dropped the periods by
now. She follows what the hospitals want, and expects it to go to MD
eventually. -mary

GRAMMEE

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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About one year ago we (my service) dropped the periods from the
abbreviation for medical doctor (MD). I contract with a hospital that has
approximately 300 actively dictating physicians on staff and have 20
private physician office accounts. In that time, no one, not one,
physician has commented on the change in the abbreviation of their
doctorate degree. Consequently, my summation can only be that they really
don't care if it has periods or not.

In addition, I absolutely refuse to transcribe the English (or medical)
language erroneously. If I cannot convince the dictator that they are in
error, by documentation of the established grammar/punctuation/spelling
rule, then they can "pay" someone else to do it wrong. My reputation and
that of my service is based on quality, which will not be compromised for
the almighty dollar!

Dianne Simon, CMT

Bill Bentsen

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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On 7 Feb 1996 03:10:13 -0500, gra...@aol.com (GRAMMEE) wrote:

>In addition, I absolutely refuse to transcribe the English (or medical)
>language erroneously. If I cannot convince the dictator that they are in
>error, by documentation of the established grammar/punctuation/spelling

^^^^^^^^^^^

>rule, then they can "pay" someone else to do it wrong. My reputation and

^^^^

>that of my service is based on quality, which will not be compromised for
>the almighty dollar!

>Dianne Simon, CMT
^^^

Oh, it's so nice to be able to force this issue down the purchaser's
throat. It's just like my plumber's telling me that he will not
install my sink exactly the way _I_ want. Brother!

Whose established rule might this be? Or shall I guess?

Bill Bentsen

Elizabeth Hug

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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In <4f940h$7...@cloner4.netcom.com> mmo...@ix.netcom.com(Mary Morken )
writes:
>
> I talked to the QA MD (yes, we have an MD doing QA) at my company,
>and she said New England Journal of Medicine (highly respected
journal) still uses M.D. but JAMA uses MD and has since at least 1989.
She estimates that 80% of the medical journals have dropped the periods
by now. She follows what the hospitals want, and expects it to go to
MD eventually. -mary

-----Hi, Mary and others...

If we are to change M.D. to MD, then what about D.O.? And further,
what if the master physician lists at the hospitals - which I have
found to be usually written in all caps - should drop the period?
Wouldn't it seem really odd to see, for example: JOHN SMITH, DO -
What did he DO?

I'm not giving up those periods unless specifically requested to do so
by the clients. What's the big deal?


Liz


Mary Morken

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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Liz, you make a good point. A friend pointed out to me today, that MD
can be misunderstood for Maryland, and since my work comes from
Maryland, I can see her point, though context helps. I don't do
envelopes, but am wondering if people use no punctuation on envelopes
like post office requests. -mary

Bill Bentsen

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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On 6 Feb 1996 13:25:15 GMT, mmo...@ix.netcom.com(Mary Morken ) wrote:

>Someone wrote me E-mail that the AMA Guide says MD without the periods
>is the proper format. If this is so, apparently a lot of doctors are
>not following it. What do you think? I'm going to talk to my QA MD
>about this.

The question of whether to put periods in abbreviations appears to be
very controversial.

Sheila B. Sloane, CMT, in her book Medical Abbreviations and Eponyms
(W.B. Saunders Company, 1985) states, "Nowhere was the question of
proper usage more troublesome than in the use of upper and lower case
letters and periods in listing the abbreviations." Sloane lists
"M.D." for Doctor of Medicine and "MD" for words such as mitral
disease and mentally deficient. She also lists all of the
abbreviations in the first two lines of this paragraph exactly as
shown, i.e. with the periods.

The Gregg Reference Manual (Glencoe McGraw-Hill, 1994) states in
section 1804, "... (full name), M.D." is proper.

The Chicago Manual of Style (University of Chicago Press, 1993) states
in section 7.26 that "Joseph Hershall, M.D." is proper.

Webster's 7th edition lists "M.D." as the proper abbreviation for
medical doctor.

On the other hand, Stedman's Abbreviations, Acronyms & Symbols
(Williams & Wilkins, 1992) chose not to use any periods in any
abbreviation. They make an exception and include a period when the
abbreviation might be confused with an actual word (e.g., all. or
add.). They do say that they do not place periods in any abbreviation
as that is the style they've chosen for Stedman's Medical Dictionary.

The American Medical Association Manual of Style, 8th ed., 1989, has
chosen not to add periods to abbreviations; however, the AMA Manual of
Style is a guide for authors who publish in AMA's various journals,
and it does not attempt to influence style in other documents.

Interestingly, the AMA Manual of Style does not sanction placing
periods anywhere. No academic degree nor honor includes periods; no
days of the week nor month abbreviations have periods (Tues Wed Thurs
Oct Nov Dec are fine with no periods); abbreviations for street, road,
avenue, boulevard do not have periods; abbreviations for states do not
have periods (Calif Ark Fla Ga Tex Tenn are just fine with no
periods); familial and fraternal titles have no periods (WC Smith Sr,
JC Jones Jr, Rep James Dunn, Sr Mary Frances, Sen Paul Simon); and
business names are denied periods even if they use periods themselves
(WB Saunders Co, JB Lippincott Co). Take a look at Dorland's
Illustrated Medical Dictionary as W.B. Saunders Company actually does
have periods placed.

My docs and I like "M.D." with the periods. It seems to me that there
are enough sources in agreement to continue its use without our being
old fashioned. If any of you and your docs like "MD" better, that's
fine. I don't care. Just make sure they understand you do not mean
"mentally deficient!"

Whew!

Bill Bentsen


Gail M. Hall

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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In a previous article, bben...@cris.com (Bill Bentsen) says:

>
>The question of whether to put periods in abbreviations appears to be
>very controversial.
>
>Sheila B. Sloane, CMT, in her book Medical Abbreviations and Eponyms
>(W.B. Saunders Company, 1985) states, "Nowhere was the question of
>proper usage more troublesome than in the use of upper and lower case
>letters and periods in listing the abbreviations." Sloane lists
>"M.D." for Doctor of Medicine and "MD" for words such as mitral
>disease and mentally deficient. She also lists all of the
>abbreviations in the first two lines of this paragraph exactly as
>shown, i.e. with the periods.
>

It seems to me that the groups quickest to adopt the no-periods
abbreviations were groups like the American Psychological Association that
publish journals that have LOTS of degreed authors. Maybe they figured
they could save a few pages or bottles of ink by eliminating the periods.


>The Gregg Reference Manual (Glencoe McGraw-Hill, 1994) states in
>section 1804, "... (full name), M.D." is proper.
>

I don't think "M.D." has ever been "improper." It's just that some groups
would like to save some trees by shortening the abbreviation.

>The Chicago Manual of Style (University of Chicago Press, 1993) states
>in section 7.26 that "Joseph Hershall, M.D." is proper.

The CMS is published as a guideline for authors who write for the
University of Chicago Press. Others have adopted it because it is a very
thorough guide.

>
>On the other hand, Stedman's Abbreviations, Acronyms & Symbols
>(Williams & Wilkins, 1992) chose not to use any periods in any
>abbreviation. They make an exception and include a period when the
>abbreviation might be confused with an actual word (e.g., all. or
>add.). They do say that they do not place periods in any abbreviation
>as that is the style they've chosen for Stedman's Medical Dictionary.

In other words, for this particular publisher, they have decided to go
with "no periods" as their standard. Personally, this does allow more
consistency. But, of course, there will always be an exception in cases of
possible mixup.

I still see M.D., etc., used in letters, newspapers, etc.

The Associated Press Stylebook (1994) still wants periods used for academic
degrees.

>The American Medical Association Manual of Style, 8th ed., 1989, has
>chosen not to add periods to abbreviations; however, the AMA Manual of
>Style is a guide for authors who publish in AMA's various journals,
>and it does not attempt to influence style in other documents.

This book is good for people who want to type articles or other manuscripts
for doctors. But it probably does not fit with chart notes or other less
formal reports.

>Interestingly, the AMA Manual of Style does not sanction placing
>periods anywhere. No academic degree nor honor includes periods; no
>days of the week nor month abbreviations have periods (Tues Wed Thurs
>Oct Nov Dec are fine with no periods); abbreviations for street, road,
>avenue, boulevard do not have periods; abbreviations for states do not
>have periods (Calif Ark Fla Ga Tex Tenn are just fine with no
>periods); familial and fraternal titles have no periods (WC Smith Sr,
>JC Jones Jr, Rep James Dunn, Sr Mary Frances, Sen Paul Simon); and
>business names are denied periods even if they use periods themselves
>(WB Saunders Co, JB Lippincott Co). Take a look at Dorland's
>Illustrated Medical Dictionary as W.B. Saunders Company actually does
>have periods placed.

Again, how much paper and ink do you think they are trying to save by
eliminating all those periods?

>My docs and I like "M.D." with the periods. It seems to me that there
>are enough sources in agreement to continue its use without our being
>old fashioned. If any of you and your docs like "MD" better, that's
>fine. I don't care. Just make sure they understand you do not mean
>"mentally deficient!"

It's nice to go along with the style that the client wants, but it would be
a headache if every client wants you to use a different style book. I
goofed yesterday when I sent in work for one doctor who wants a different
signature block when he is in one office than he uses in the other. I have
a macro for the extra stuff he wants in the signature on Tuesdays, but I
just forgot to use it. <sigh>

It would be a pain for me if I had to remember which doctors want "b.i.d."
and which want "BID" and so on.

This is probably why a service that has many clients and lots of MTs
working for them choose to go with a certain style guide. It's easier for
them to pick one that is already written than to write their own.

Ideally, each hospital is supposed to have its style guide for
abbreviations, especially. But most of them probably leave that as a low
priority item -- something they do just before inspection time.

Most of these "rules" aren't really written in stone, but different groups
have chosen to use certain standards.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else comes up with an MT style
guide that corrects some of the shortcomings of the AAMT one. Like include
an index. I sure don't know what they were thinking of when they failed to
include an index! And they charge lots more for theirs than many other
publishers charge. <sigh>

Here is some interesting trivia. I am looking at the Associated Press
Stylebook and see an interesting bibliography of references in the back.
It's two pages of very small print, so I won't post the list here. I found
the AP Stylebook in a bookstore for $14.00 ($17.95 Canada).

BTW, the AP Stylebook doesn't have an index, either. But for $14.00 I am
not going to push the issue as hard as I do for one that costs much, much
more.


-------------

Gail M. Hall
aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu


ALISHA9999

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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Gail,

Thanks for all the great comments about this weird subject. Personally, I
may begin to leave out the periods after MD for those whose dictation
seems to indicate they are mentally deficient.

I really appreciate all your comments and research. I have several of
your notes in my own personal reference book from this net and continue to
refer to them as to many others by my group peers.

Best regards, Alisha

Kathryn Karjala/David Long

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
to
In article <4fbk5a$o...@spectator.cris.com>,
bben...@cris.com (Bill Bentsen) wrote:

>Interestingly, the AMA Manual of Style does not sanction placing
>periods anywhere. No academic degree nor honor includes periods; no
>days of the week nor month abbreviations have periods (Tues Wed Thurs
>Oct Nov Dec are fine with no periods); abbreviations for street, road,
>avenue, boulevard do not have periods; abbreviations for states do not
>have periods (Calif Ark Fla Ga Tex Tenn are just fine with no
>periods); familial and fraternal titles have no periods (WC Smith Sr,
>JC Jones Jr, Rep James Dunn, Sr Mary Frances, Sen Paul Simon); and
>business names are denied periods even if they use periods themselves
>(WB Saunders Co, JB Lippincott Co).

Do they say anything about Mr, Ms, etc?

I know the post office prefers all caps, no punctuation of any sort, on
addresses.

I still use M.D. but of course it's a macro and could easily be changed
at any time pretty transparently to me. As with Bill, I think it just
depends on who wants what and who feels the strongest on the point (and
who pays the bills).

Kathy

ALISHA9999

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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Mary Morken wrote:
... I don't do envelopes, but am wondering if people use no punctuation

on envelopes like post office requests.

I do type envelopes and leave out all the punctuation since the post
office's computer will sort my mail rather than a human - while the
program may have inaccuracies, there is less chance that the mail is
misdirected by the computer -

I type "JOHN S SMITH M D" or "JANE R JONES PH D", leaving spaces where
those periods would be - the addressee in the letter has the correct
punctuation - or at least what used to be correct when I was taught it way
back in the 50s. Tee hee.

Alisha

KaDNewell

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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In article <4fc2oe$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, alish...@aol.com
(ALISHA9999) writes:

>
>Gail,
>
>Thanks for all the great comments about this weird subject. Personally,
I
>may begin to leave out the periods after MD for those whose dictation
>seems to indicate they are mentally deficient.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

This is the best idea I've heard yet!

Donna

AMTCMT

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Feb 8, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/8/96
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Gail:

That was great! Thanks for covering the various views on this "touchy"
subject so objectively.

Would only like to add that Dorland's 28th Edition shows MD without
periods also.

I recently heard that JCAHO no longer requires hospitals to maintain an
abbreviation list; can anyone confirm this?

Dianne

ESTHER JANE STORVOLD

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Feb 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/9/96
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Whew! what a lot of opinions on a little subject...just goes to show you
what an interesting group we are. Gathering all the opinions gives my
students a better perspective on the issues. Some call it nitpicking,
some call it "wanting to know if there is a correct style". If the
question isn't asked in the first place how would we know if it is
nitpicking or "who cares anyways?" :}


Esther

Old2Lt

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Feb 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/9/96
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I guess I don't see what the big deal is. Like anybody is going to look at
--John Smith, MD--and spend 10 minutes trying to figure out what the guy
does for a living.

karen

Janie Gilbert

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Feb 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/10/96
to bben...@cris.com
Aack!

I'm starting to get paranoid now. Is it OK to use, for example, ER for
Emergency Room? I have some sort of problem with meds and can't seem to
get away from this format: Vicodin p.o. q.i.d. Should I be typing it
as PO QID? I tried that once, and for some reason, it just didn't look
quite right. Am I incorrect when I use abbreviations like ER and ICU in
a document along with the med abbreviations with the periods. What about
AM and PM. Should they be A.M. and P.M.?

We were freezing last week, now we're flooding. I can look out my window
and watch the Yakima River (in Washington state) rise and rise and rise!
What's next?

Janie


ESTHER JANE STORVOLD

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Feb 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/10/96
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ER - my vote is "yes" - AAMT Book of Style again as reference.

b.i.d. - I took the suggestion from the AAMT Book of Style and it makes
sense that using lowercase with periods.
1. Lowercase does not draw your eye away from the dosage.... uppercase
tends to do that.
2. Periods with lowercase so not to accidently misread bid for b.i.d.

Book good reasons taken from AAMT Book of Style...and that's what I
teach in my class, however, again it will depend on who you are
transcribing for. I also teach that with
"diplomacy" you can show why you choose to use a certain style. Most
times it is appreciated, sometimes not... Last, but not least, as
mentioned before... if they are paying the bills, they have final say. ;)

Esther

Mary Morken

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Feb 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/10/96
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Janie,
I wondered how our northwest MTs were doing with the flooding, the
pictures on television make it look really bad! Hope you are able to
stay dry.

I agree with Esther's response to your note, and her good reasoning.
I use a.m. and p.m. myself, and avoid using abbreviations for ER and
ICU if possible, but again, there are several acceptable ways to do
these.

Hope we cured your paranoia! :) Maybe it's just the flood
danger....

Mary

Trisha H. Potter

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Feb 10, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/10/96
to
If someone's already mentioned this,
sorry in advance, but isn't it true that
any abbreviation coming from a Latin term
gets lowercase letters and periods?

Such as q.o.d., a.m., p.m., etc., etc., etc. ...?

Tell me if I'm wrong,
Trisha


ALISHA9999

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Feb 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/12/96
to
Janie,

I agree with Esther and Mary regarding b.i.d., etc. Like Mary, I also
type a.m. and p.m. If a doc constantly dictates in the ICU, ER throughout
a report - I will spell it out once and put the (ICU) in parens. However,
I prefer to avoid abbreviations if possible. I have a marvelous book,
Logan's Medical and Scientific Abbreviations (1984 but great for all the
older docs' abbrevs), which I've used to demonstrate to docs the problem
with using abbrevs.

Alisha

Stacey L. Brower

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Feb 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/12/96
to
In article <4fh2rt$4...@krel.iea.com>, Janie Gilbert
Hi,

A few thoughts on the subject. My spell checker for e-mail likes AM
and PM. I use Stedman's Plus Ver. 3.0 for medical spell checking at
home with WP 6.1 Stedman's also likes AM and PM, HS, PO, QID, etc.
What needs to be done is to develop a policy with your medicl staff
and stick to it. Uniformity is the key.

Thanks,
Stacey.

Trisha H. Potter

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Feb 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/13/96
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med...@mcn.net (Stacey L. Brower) wrote:

>A few thoughts on the subject. My spell checker for e-mail likes AM
>and PM. I use Stedman's Plus Ver. 3.0 for medical spell checking at
>home with WP 6.1 Stedman's also likes AM and PM, HS, PO, QID, etc.
>What needs to be done is to develop a policy with your medicl staff
>and stick to it. Uniformity is the key.
>
>Thanks,
>Stacey.

I thought the rule was that if the abbreviation originated
from latin terms (q.d., etc., a.m., p.m., blah, blah, blah),
the abbreviation was always expressed in lower case letters
with periods. I don't, however, remember why I think this.
Might be just a rumor! In any case, I support the idea
that it cuts down on confusion in the already confusing
area of medication dosages.


Trisha H. Potter

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Feb 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/13/96
to
"Trisha H. Potter" <thpo...@mozart.stat.wisc.edu> wrote:
>I thought the rule was that if the abbreviation originated
>from latin terms (q.d., etc., a.m., p.m., blah, blah, blah),
>the abbreviation was always expressed in lower case letters
>with periods. I don't, however, remember why I think this.
>Might be just a rumor! In any case, I support the idea
>that it cuts down on confusion in the already confusing
>area of medication dosages.

Yes, I'm responding to myself ... happens all the time!

I remember why I had the above rule stuck in my mind.
Though I realize all do not suscribe to the AAMT BOS as
"the way to go," they recommend using "lowercased
abbreviatoins with periods for Latin abbreviations that
are related to doses and dosages."

Their reasoning is that abbreviations consisting of all caps
draws the eye to the abbrev. and away from the drug name. They
also suggest that lowercased abbrevs. without periods may
be misread as words.

Plus, it looks better ... and "I was just following orders."

Salute,
Trisha


SKMckn

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Feb 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/17/96
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In article <4fdu5q$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, amt...@aol.com (AMTCMT)
writes:

>I recently heard that JCAHO no longer requires hospitals to maintain an

>abbreviation list; can anyone confirm this? ---- Sorry that it has taken
me so long to get around with the answer. I was able to talk to a JCAHO
reviewer, RN, and so I literally got it from "the horses mouth". You are
right there are no longer any rules that state a hospital must have an
abbreviation list BUT if you are using any abbreviations then you must be
able to explain how everyone knows what COPD is and what CVA stands for
(costovertebral angle or cerebrovasacular accident) etc. So you see JCAHO
is really caggy they are not making as many mandatory demands as they used
to but if you can't prove how you are accomplishing a type of work then
you should have had i.e. the abbreviation list.

Hope this explanation is understood by all.

ttyl your friend and fellow MT

Sue McKean

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