Can mastrubating inflame prostate?
WG
Can habitual mastrubating inflame your prostate?
I have only had about three bouts of prostatis over ten years with
symptons of frequent urination and some burning after?
The second time there was an infection ( doc claimed not STD) and was
treated with antibiotics. Went away for almost two years. Then it came
back again two months ago.
I went to a regular doctor I live in a remote part of Korea and don't
speak Korean very well. Difficult to find English speaking URO. The
doc tested my urine and said no infection and no inflamation.
So I took antibiotics anyway for ten days and the frequent urination
did not really settle down.
I went back to the GP and he said try "Prosman" made in Germany but
its writen in Korean so I don't know what it is.Now no problem at
night...sleep right through, but daytime is not as good as still some
irritaion. Frequency seems to be also improving. Seems to be getting
better. Anyone know about this drug?
I don't want this to reoccur again so is it possible habitual
mastrubating inflamed my prostate in the first place?
Thanks...and my sympathy for those who suffer!
WG
avocet
"WG" <W...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:78nttvo01gj3cggls...@4ax.com...
>
>
> Can habitual mastrubating inflame your prostate?
>
I don't know what "habitual" means to you, but the general rule I've
been told and go by is this: If ejaculation via sex or masturbation is not
excrutiatingly painful because the prostate is already highly inflammed, the
usual result is a lessening of symtoms and easier urination. The first
couple times might be a little uncomfortable, but it gets easier. Several
times a week should keep you pretty well-flushed and relieve the fluid
congestion.
You need to get someone to translate the information that comes with your
Korean medications.
Jim
Idea Man
"avocet" wrote..
> I don't know what "habitual" means to you, but the general rule I've
> been told and go by is this: If ejaculation via sex or masturbation is
not
> excrutiatingly painful because the prostate is already highly inflammed,
the
> usual result is a lessening of symtoms and easier urination. The first
> couple times might be a little uncomfortable, but it gets easier. Several
> times a week should keep you pretty well-flushed and relieve the fluid
> congestion.
>
> You need to get someone to translate the information that comes with
your
> Korean medications.
Reasonable advice I'd say.
On the flip side of that, I'd also like to add that if any of you are
yanking everyday like a monkey in heat, then STOP! Your doing nothing but
harming your nerves during your long insane play sessions. Habitual
masturbation = habitual pain.
George Prager
Not sure what you mean by 'habitual' masturbation (after all it IS a habit
with 99.9% of males) but my nerves seem a-ok after about three decades of
self pleasuring
- and the pleasuring of my wife, I might add
George
"Idea Man" <fiducia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O5UDb.94708$bC.23289@clgrps13...
passepar2z
Dear WG
If you can get erect and feel like masturbating, well I guess you're
in a fairly healthy condition. I doubt if masturbation as such caused
your flare-up of prostatis. As I have said in the past on this group I
have found regular masturbation to be very helpful in treating
prostatis.
Unless you are masturbating to the extent that your penis is inflamed
or raw I would say keep on jerking.
What is possible is that you could have some sort of bacterial
contamination on your hands. Do you come into contact with shit? Do
you perhaps insert a finger in your anus and then masturbate with the
same hand? I enjoy anal stimulation but make sure I use a finger stall
or a condom, which I then remove.
Do you use a lotion or cream to help with masturbation? It could be
that the lotion is a source of infection.
What might also happen is that your prostatitis was dormant and that
by masturbating the bacteria in the prostate have inflamed your
urethra.
Certain posters like to create fear and spread anxiety.
There is nothing wrong with masturbating. To the contrary it is
probably good for you. Sexual function is natural and healthy. Of
course in an isolated situation such as you are in, it must be
difficult to express your sexuality with a partner.
I think you should make the effort to visit a urologist who can
understand you, and whom you can understand.
Although many people are in favour of traditional herbal medicine, and
I am sure that it has its uses, I wouldn't put my faith in a
traditional remedy for prostatitis. A full course of cyproxine
combined with daily masturbation and an exam to see if your prostate
is enlarged will probably help you.
Keep on trucking!!
Passe
Idea Man
"George Prager" wrote..
> What nerves, exactly? Peripheral nerves on the glans? Or something deeper?
You'd have to get off your ass and do the search yourself regarding the
names of which genitoury nerves, but irregardless, overstimulation, ( long
sessions, numerous times per day ), via masterbation CAN potentially harm
and inflame the nerves in the genital area as well as irritate the sphincter
muscle.
> Not sure what you mean by 'habitual' masturbation (after all it IS a habit
> with 99.9% of males) but my nerves seem a-ok after about three decades of
> self pleasuring
If you bothered to read the original post in this thread, posted by a
different person, you would have seen that it was "he" that first used the
phrase, "habitual masterbation". I used the term in reference to his
remarks. I'm not quite sure what that means either, but it kinda sounded
like he was over doing it. Maybe you should ask him why he asked such a
question ans what he meant by it?
> - and the pleasuring of my wife, I might add
Great! Tell someone who cares.
Adios.
avocet
Is it your prostatitis that makes you so cranky and mean-spirited all the
time, Idea Man?
We'd be happy to get more good advice from you and less sarcasm. This
disease is bad enough without verbal abuse from fellow-sufferers.
Jim
Idea Man
"avocet" wrote..
> Is it your prostatitis that makes you so cranky and mean-spirited all the
> time, Idea Man?
>
> We'd be happy to get more good advice from you and less sarcasm. This
> disease is bad enough without verbal abuse from fellow-sufferers.
( SIGH ).......here we go again.
Avocet,
I'm not cranky. It's quite the contrary my friend. I'm suffering like all
the others here and wish everyone health and happiness. I even wish health
and happiness to all the people who post here with different views other
than mine regarding the etiology of this condition! I forgive and forget
very easily Avocet. Let me give you a little tip == life is too short to be
stressed by petty things. You would agree with this about me if you
remembered our private email discussions last summer. Obviously don't. Look!
It just pisses me off when people don't read full threads and don't know
what the topic is! Some posters pick and choose certain quotes and take them
out of context to embarrass and make others look bad. A perfect example of
this is what George Prager did with me and this thread. In the "ORIGINAL"
message posted in this thread by WG, WG asked this question of the newsgroup
=> " I don't want this to reoccur again so is it possible habitual
masturbating inflamed my prostate in the first place? It's a legitimate
question, but quite frankly a little confusing as I don't fully understand
what WG means by habitual masturbation? Anyways, I responded and told him
that if "habitual masturbation" meant "overstimulation" and "long sessions",
then YES.....YES it could precipitate this condition! We all know this type
of habit can harm and irritate the nerves in the pelvic area! Makes sense,
right?? Case closed? Done deal? Thanks for your comments, Idea Man?? Nope!
George Prager then posts and asks me "WHAT I MEANT BY HABITUAL MASTURBATION"
??? ( shaking my head ) What's that all about? Did George Prager even read
WG's original post? It sure doesn't look like it, because I'm NOT the one
who asked anything about HABITUAL MASTURBATION??? Didn't he see I was
responding to someone else's question? Why is George Prager asking me, "
WHAT NERVES, EXACTLY? PERIPHERAL NERVES OF THE GLANS?" Quite frankly, if he
doesn't know by now that abnormal masturbation sessions could precipitate
CPPS and damage and inflame nerves, then it's NO WOnder he's had this
condition for 3 decades! He then specifically feels the need to tell ME, ==>
" after all, it IS a habit with 99.9% of males, but my nerves seem a-ok
after about three decades of self pleasuring - and the pleasuring of my
wife, I might add". Give me a break! This is what I mean about NOT reading
the full thread and NOT knowing what is being discussed! He missed the whole
point of the thread and that if "habitual masturbation" means
"overstimulation" and "long masturbation sessions", then it can indeed
damage and inflame nerves. C'mon! I don't need some bonehead challenging me
on that!??! Look Avocet, your right! This disease is bad enough without
verbal abuse from fellow-sufferers and if you remembered who I was, you
would know immediately that I find verbal abuse appauling and NEVER
instigate it! I'd really just like to let Georgie know we should all just
move on and get back to the topics. No hard feelings here. My first and
foremost reason for posting here is to keep up with current research and to
exchange ideas that will potentially help myself, ( ya, I'm selfish in that
regard ), but also to help my suffering CPPS brother. It's kinda funny
Avocet, you don't recall we privately emailed numerous times last summer.
Since then however, I changed my posting name to the newsgroup. This is why
you don't remember. Let me jog your memory. We spoke about the seminal
vesicles. I was getting ready to go to Europe and had to break off
communication with ya. Ring a bell? We had very productive discussions
regarding CPPS and had a mutual respect for one another. By the way, I think
your a very nice person and it's no suprise your defending people here in
the group.
Can we move on please? This is a waste of time. Let's try to help each
other.
Best regards,
Derek
Robert A. Fink, M. D.
>You'd have to get off your ass and do the search yourself regarding the
>names of which genitoury nerves, but irregardless, overstimulation, ( long
>sessions, numerous times per day ), via masterbation CAN potentially harm
>and inflame the nerves in the genital area as well as irritate the sphincter
>muscle.
False. No medical evidence for this allegation. It is in the same
class as the "hair on the palms" legend.
Best,
Bob
Robert A. Fink, M.D., FACS, P. C.
2500 Milvia Street Suite 222
Berkeley, California 94704-2636 USA
Telephone: 510-849-2555
FAX: 510-849-2557
<http://www.rafink.com>
"Ex Tristitia Virtus"
Idea Man
"Robert A. Fink, M. D." < wrote...
> "Idea Man" <fiducia...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >You'd have to get off your ass and do the search yourself regarding the
> >names of which genitoury nerves, but irregardless, overstimulation, (
long
> >sessions, numerous times per day ), via masterbation CAN potentially harm
> >and inflame the nerves in the genital area as well as irritate the
sphincter
> >muscle.
>
>
> False. No medical evidence for this allegation. It is in the same
> class as the "hair on the palms" legend.
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
Er.....your a doctor, right? Are you serious? I urge you to go back to the
top of this page and re-read my comments. I am hoping you have just
misunderstood or misread what I said.
Are your attempting to inform the men in this newsgroup that if they
masterbate for overly lengthy periods of time, hold off ejaculation,
ejaculate 3-4 times per day, that this WOULD NOT increase the chances of
irritating their penile nerves and nerves leading in and out of the
prostate? Are you also telling the men in this group that this type of
abusive practice COULD NOT potentially precipitate CPPS symptoms? I want to
clarify my opinion and that is that it is one thing to masterbate and
ejaculate on a regular basis, ( which by all accounts is normal practice,
and beneficial for many sufferer's ), but a whole, completely, different
thing to over-do thing's in the way I described above.
I look forward to your reply.
George Prager
mention three points:
1) you are correct, I should have read the whole thread - poin conceded
2) my question about nerve damage was a genuine one. Sure, I can look it up
on "Google"; nevertheless - this was a simple question, not a challenge
3) you'll notice that I was (and always try to be) polite and would never
resort to calling you, or anybody else,
"a bonehead"
We may disagree or misunderstand but rudeness is never called for
George
George
"Idea Man" <fiducia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P3qEb.108544$bC.7887@clgrps13...
Idea Man
"George Prager" < wrote.
> look, Derek, I was not going to get dragged into a flame war but I want to
> mention three points:
>
> 1) you are correct, I should have read the whole thread - point conceded.
Thankyou for admitting that. You have my respect with that admission.
> 2) my question about nerve damage was a genuine one. Sure, I can look it
up
> on "Google"; nevertheless - this was a simple question, not a challenge
Yes, it could be a legitimate question. As I pointed out, I did not take it
seriously because it felt as though it was asked in the way of a challenge
rather than someone sincerely wanting to know the answer.
> 3) you'll notice that I was (and always try to be) polite and would never
> resort to calling you, or anybody else,
> "a bonehead"
>
> We may disagree or misunderstand but rudeness is never called for
You are absolutely right and I apologize George. For anyone that's been
reading this group for the last 2 years, ( OY! Have I been here that long??
CRYING!! ), they'll have noticed I too always try to be polite and am a
great admirer of truth and justice. I was wrong to be rude like I was, and
it was uncalled for. I certainly could have handled it differently. I guess
I was a little frazzled because my cities NHL HOCKEY TEAM had lost their
game the night before....and....I had ...to take...it out
on........uuhh.......naw...... don't believe that lame excuse, ( laughing ).
The bottom line is that cheap shots are uncalled for especially since were
are all here to help each other. From what I can tell, you are always polite
and are a nice addition to the newsgroup George. Thankyou for your mature
understanding and let's move ahead.
It's the past and I forgive and forget very easily. Done deal!
Woohoo!!
Peace out,
Derek
avocet
conversations were not abusive. The person I spoke with during that time was
unfailingly polite and you are not being that now.
Don't miss the point that verbal bashing, "Tell somebody who cares," offers
no useful information and makes a perhaps naive poster feel like a fool when
all he wants are answers to his very uncomfortable issues.
George summed up my reaction pretty well. He asked about penile nerves
(which you brought up). If you know about penile nerves, just tell him, or
tell him where he might find the information, or ignore his question
altogether.
Sorry to make you the object of my peeve, Idea Man. Your are not the only
one posting here in sometimes nasty ways.
Let's get back to finding solutions and being considerate of each other, and
creative in the process.
Jim
"Idea Man" <fiducia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P3qEb.108544$bC.7887@clgrps13...
Idea Man
"avocet" < wrote..
> We did talk, and shared a lot of very interesting ideas. And the
> conversations were not abusive. The person I spoke with during that time
was
> unfailingly polite and you are not being that now.
Yes. You are right. I am unfailingly polite.
> Don't miss the point that verbal bashing, "Tell somebody who cares,"
offers
> no useful information and makes a perhaps naive poster feel like a fool
when
> all he wants are answers to his very uncomfortable issues.
LOOK! DON'T LECTURE ME ON VERBAL BASHING AVOCET! I think it's quite telling
about those who feel the need to rub this in. Your not the only one with a
heart who posts here. My record speaks for itself and I make it a habit to
be considerate. Go ahead and bash me for the ONE TIME in over 2 years I was
overly harsh if it makes you feel good. I'm very content with myself.
Read below:
======================
From: Idea Man (fiducia...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Prostatis and death...
View: Complete Thread (6 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: sci.med.prostate.prostatitis
Date: 2003-11-22 13:16:26 PST
"Andy" wrote...
I responded => Hi Andy.
> sometimes i keep wondering, why all those prostatis people still strive to
> live in this world
> with an inperfect body...what is the point of putting up all these pain
and
> live a sub-optimal
I responded => It sounds like your pretty down right now. If your a
prostatitis and CPPS
sufferer your question is one many ask, so don't feel alone OK? But....if
your not a sufferer, your question is somewhat cruel and it's obvious you
haven't given much thought as to the emotional consequences it could have
for some suffering soul out there reading who needs strength and support
rather than doom and gloom. It sounds like your the former.
================================
From: Derek (fiducia...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Life during treatment for prostatitis
View: Complete Thread (4 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: sci.med.prostate.prostatitis
Date: 2003-09-11 15:12:20 PST
"LiLVik52" wrote..
> My son is being treated for prostatitis. He has been on antibiotics goin
on 2
> 1/2 months now. He is miserable most of the time. Is that normal?
I responded => YES, that is completely normal when suffering from this
ailment. He needs
all the support and understanding that he can get from friends and family
during this time. This is so very important! You have to remember that this
is a difficult condition to treat and fix, and your son's suffering and lack
of improvement have him upset and discouraged. It's not his fault, and
support makes all the difference for him.
================================
OTHER'S WHO KNEW ME WELL.
Read below.
================================
From: Joe (ro...@iserv.net)
Subject: This newsgroup
View this article only
Newsgroups: sci.med.prostate.prostatitis
Date: 2002-07-23 17:15:08 PST
Gentlemen,
7 months ago I was diagnosed with prostatitis. At first I couldn't get
enough of this newsgroup, thinking it to be not only a wealth of
useful information, but it was comforting knowing there are other guys
out there going through the same stuff I am.
I haven't posted in months, I'm seeing a new Uro, doing new things,
and I think I could offer some good advice to people with valid
questions.
But for all the good this newsgroup *could* be it is just too hard for
me to wade through all the crap and bogus postings and disinformation.
There are too precious few who I respect to read their posts anymore.
The only one I can think of that I trust is Derek.
The only advice I can give to someone new to this newsgroup is this:
read the posts here only to understand that there are people dealing
with the same pain you are and that you are not alone in this. But for
information to base any decisions on please stick to the web sites.
God Bless
Joe
================================
From: PBraidis (pbra...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Polacheck Looking Down the Barrell of Fate
Newsgroups: sci.med.prostate.prostatitis
Date: 2002-12-11 23:12:24 PST
PBraidis wrote > You only refute Derek who tries to do nothing but help.
===============================
> Sorry to make you the object of my peeve, Idea Man. Your are not the only
> one posting here in sometimes nasty ways.
I've apologized to George, Avocet, so spend your valuable time lecturing
those who really need help finding their compassion.
> Let's get back to finding solutions and being considerate of each other,
and
> creative in the process.
No kidding.
Regards,
...:喊`......:::::M�::::......`昂:...
Robert A. Fink, M. D.
>Er.....your a doctor, right? Are you serious? I urge you to go back to the
>top of this page and re-read my comments. I am hoping you have just
>misunderstood or misread what I said.
>
>Are your attempting to inform the men in this newsgroup that if they
>masterbate for overly lengthy periods of time, hold off ejaculation,
>ejaculate 3-4 times per day, that this WOULD NOT increase the chances of
>irritating their penile nerves and nerves leading in and out of the
>prostate? Are you also telling the men in this group that this type of
>abusive practice COULD NOT potentially precipitate CPPS symptoms? I want to
>clarify my opinion and that is that it is one thing to masterbate and
>ejaculate on a regular basis, ( which by all accounts is normal practice,
>and beneficial for many sufferer's ), but a whole, completely, different
>thing to over-do thing's in the way I described above.
>
>I look forward to your reply.
I repeat: You do not "damage nerves" by stimulating them. You don't
"irritate" them, either.
Yes, I am a doctor.
prostateman
> "irritate" them, either.
>
> Yes, I am a doctor.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
>
>
> Robert A. Fink, M.D., FACS, P. C.
> 2500 Milvia Street Suite 222
> Berkeley, California 94704-2636 USA
> Telephone: 510-849-2555
> FAX: 510-849-2557
> <http://www.rafink.com>
>
> "Ex Tristitia Virtus"
My own symptoms startet with weakened erection and a slightly numb
feeling in the genital area during or right after sexual activity
("normal" sex, not very frequent and not holding ejaculation back). I
feel that this would in some way have something to do with the nerves
in the pelvis and genitals...
niceshyguymiami
>yanking everyday like a monkey in heat, then STOP! Your doing nothing but
>harming your nerves during your long insane play sessions. Habitual
>masturbation = habitual pain.
I have been told by a Uro and I believe this to be true - that you need to
ejeculate once a day.
You are flushing out the gland when you do this.
niceshyguymiami
>What is possible is that you could have some sort of bacterial
>contamination on your hands. Do you come into contact with shit?
Speaking of shit - did you know that a womans vagina and mouth both contain
varieties of bacteria that are not commonly not found in shit.
That is why I say --
WOMEN ARE EVIL !!!!!
Webmaster Chronicprostatitis.com
news:20031221113748...@mb-m22.aol.com
Tired of the misinformation and nonsense found in this newsgroup? Come
to where the sane people discuss this topic:
http://www.chronicpelvicpain.us/
http://www.chronicprostatitis.com/
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
IDResonant
and more importantly, you are flushing out your brain! c'mon, once a day?
niceshyguymiami
I was told that daily ejeculation is advisable. I specifically asked my Uro if
every other day was ok? He told me that it was best to ejecuate once a day.
Idea Man
"Robert A. Fink, M. D." < wrote..
> I repeat: You do not "damage nerves" by stimulating them. You don't
> "irritate" them, either.
>
> Yes, I am a doctor.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Bob
>
>
> Robert A. Fink, M.D., FACS, P. C.
> 2500 Milvia Street Suite 222
> Berkeley, California 94704-2636 USA
> Telephone: 510-849-2555
> FAX: 510-849-2557
> <http://www.rafink.com>
Well, your just wrong. Don't know how else to say it?
Just because YOur a doctor doesn't that mean that YOU are right. Your just a
man with no more answers than many of the educated laymen who lurk around
here. By the claim you've made though, I really have to wonder? Let me ask
you some questions, Bob. I'm just curious? Do you possess the same in-depth
insight men who are actually suffering from this disease possess? Do you
suffer from chronic pelvic pain? Do you suffer with neuropathic pain? Know
what it feels like? What irritates symptoms? Maybe you know what
precipitates symptoms in all men? By the way, in discussing the possible
adverse effects of overstimulating penile and prostatic nerves via long,
repetitive, masturbation sessions, ( not too mention other adverse effect as
a result ), I wonder if all patients are forthcoming at their first
urological visit? Or is it quite possible some are a bit shy and embarrassed
to admit that they were hammering away all night in with some magazine, or
movie, and now things are just a bit sore down there? It's my guess that you
haven't taken note regarding the various accounts over the years in this
newsgroup, by men who have had problems after over-extending themselves?
Maybe I can simplify thing's a bit for you? Have you ever stepped into a
gym? Worked out a little bit? What do you think would happen if you were to
work on one body part to too hard without giving it any rest? How about the
shoulder? Say you were to lift weights by doing some overhead presses
repetitively with your left shoulder for 6 straight hours? I don't imagine
there are as many nerves in the shoulder as the genital area, but what do
you think might happen? That shoulder just might be a bit sore when you were
done, huh? No...no...no.....NO stopping after your 3rd hour.....keep it up!
You got 3 more hours to go! Strain that muscle! Feel good? Naw......don't
worry, your not going to do any damage. You won't pull any muscles, or
damage any nerves by OVER-stimulating. Just use good technique. But! Save
yourself because you got another week of this!
Who with a straight face would claim that you cannot "damage nerves" by
OVER- stimulating them, and you cannot "irritate" them, either? WHO? You
cannot admit that this type of behavior could hurt men and possibly trigger
chronic pelvic pain in them? Wow!??
Sorry.......I'm out of this discussion. It's too ridiculous.
Adios.
niceshyguymiami
bacteria, mainly E-Coli. A woman's mouth and vagina contain many varieties of
microorganisms that can make their happy home in your prostate.
As for the "alternative" forum, no one posts there, it is censored and geared
to lure unsuspecting victims into using Prosta-Q which is unproven snake oil.
>> >I would say keep on jerking.
>> >What is possible is that you could have some sort of bacterial
>> >contamination on your hands. Do you come into contact with shit?
>>
>> Speaking of shit - did you know that a womans vagina and mouth both contain
>> varieties of bacteria that are not commonly not found in shit.
>>
>> That is why I say --
>>
>> WOMEN ARE EVIL !!!!!
>
>
>Tired of the misinformation and nonsense found in this newsgroup? Come
>to where the sane people discuss this topic:
>
>http://www.chronicpelvicpains.us/
>http://www.chronicprostatitiss.com/
Rudy Thibodeaux
told me once a day was to much every 2 or 3 days was fine. This sames to
work for me so I guess each one of us has to figure what works for him.
I must say I Have a bother who is a GP and he had told me every day
could not hurt you .
Robert A. Fink, M. D.
>I was told that daily ejeculation is advisable. I specifically asked my Uro if
>every other day was ok? He told me that it was best to ejecuate once a day.
There is no specific number of ejaculations which are "best". Even if
you don't ejaculate at all, your body will do just fine (in the form
of "wet dreams", etc.
It is amazing to me as to how much mis-information is available on the
subject of sexuality, especially male sexuality.
andy1955
prostate going now after 7 months
"Rudy Thibodeaux" <deMa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1064-3FE...@storefull-3115.bay.webtv.net...
John
"andy1955" <andy...@wilsona69.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:btpfd5$49e$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
causing my prostate to become more inflamed. The strain when my prostate
muscle would contract (ejaculation) would cause much burning afterward. I
now only masturbate no more than 3 times A week. I also find that @ 51 I
enjoy it much more when I let A little time pass. I also found that I
experience less prostate discomfort when having intercourse than when
masturbating. IMO.
As far as your brother the GP goes ask him if he suffers from prostatitis.
So there..
Rudy Thibodeaux
thing.