Sexual harrassment...

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Thrdwrldog

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Oct 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/24/98
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Maybe some of you could tell me if this is sexual harrassment or not.

I work as an RN in an outpatient chronic care facility. Patients arrive three
times a week for four hours at a time. I am the only Male that works there
among 32 RN's and LPN's.

One particular patient happens to be a convicted sex offender and a homosexual,
constantly engaged in obscene speech and gestures to me. This behavior went on
since day one of my employment and continues to this day. I had reported the
incidents through the chain of command and was told that there would be nothing
they could do despite my repeated complaints.

The final straw came when one day, this Patient exposed himself to me while I
was performing care on another Patient. I filed an EEOC complaint shortly
thereafter.

Since that time (filing with EEOC), my Nurse manager has engaged me in a war of
retaliation. Writing me up for very minor offenses, following me around the
unit with a clip board while I perform patient care. The latest thing she
tried to do was accuse me of missing controlled substances. Another RN and I
had counted the narcotics one night and the Nurse manager came in to the unit
on her day off and altered my narcotic count to indicate that my count was
wrong. She then asked the other signing RN to verify the new count.

I was tipped off to this and I immedietely called the state bureau of control
who came in and cleared me after doing an investigation.

Has any other Male RN's ever had this kind of experience before? Let me know
how you handled it.


Juli88

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Oct 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/24/98
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I am not a male but I empathize with you anyway! This is clearly a case of
sexual harrassment. The fact that you were the only male amoung 32 other
nurses tells me that your manager most likely could have done something to
alter your assignment. I have, in the past, assigned our male nurses to male
patients who have made lewd remarks of a sexual nature to our female nurses.

I am guessing that you work in a dialysis clinic or something similar in which
case, the patient may or may not have some medical excuse for his behaviour.
If you think he is of sound mind, remind him that they offer treatment in
prison and that he is breaking the law.

As for your manager, I can't think of a single solitary reason that she would
allow one of her staff to treated as such. If you work for a large company,
call their headquarters and ask if there is a corporate compliance program. If
what you say is even half true (and alas, I realize that I am only getting half
of the story), she is in over her head and needs to take a trip to the house.

If she truly altered a narcotics count, that in itself is criminal. you should
ask that your job description be altered to preclude any reason for you to have
the keys to the narcotics locker until things have quieted down. That way you
are out of the firing line.

Finally, (and yes I know the group is tired of hearing me offer up this prayer
of sorts), Document, Document Document. Every detail, every date, etc. If
something ever comes of this, chances are your day in court will be three years
from now and you will want to have the details.

Sorry that you have been subjected to this. Keep us posted!


julianne

yeah yeah yeah yeah

Mark Gaines

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Oct 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/24/98
to Thrdwrldog
You need to hire a employment law attorney STAT! You are dealing with
retaliation after filing an EEOC complaint, which is highly illegal. I
sued my former boss,and facility for this, collecting.

Keep a daily log too, with names, dates, times, locations,, etc.

You do not have to put up with the abuse from a patient for any reason,
The facility must make a reasonable effort to protect it's staff, not
just stoop and bow to the whims of patients.

I would file a lawsuit against every nurse and administrator in the
chain of command taking part in this harassment, as well as anyone in
the chain of command who has failed to act to protect you. By not acting
to protect you, the facility has condoned it.

Call the EEOC as well and document their actions in EEOC records. But in
reality you will need a private attorney as the EEOC is overloaded. Get
a letter from the EEOC for a private lawsuit. Then your attorney can
start the action.

Once this happens they might turninto water, and even try to settle with
you. Don't talk to the buzzards, refer them to your lawyer. I would get
out ASAP, and draft a letter of constructive discharge. Your lawyer can
help you with this.

It is dinosaurs and other reptiles like this that have greatly helped to
ruin health care. You can contact me privately as I have been through
this process. My former boss is a powerless lackee now, you current boss
will be if you follow this up right. Make sure you have support from
your coworkers too. Even two or three will scare them.

If you can get another job, do so. But are you prepared to fight the
dirty tricks their lawyers will pull to wear you down? They will try for
a settlement with "gag clauses" and "vacatures." Don't let them do
either, and tell you lawyer this up front.

Good luck. Hope this helps.
--
Mark Gaines BSN RN RRT
danse...@earthlink.net
<http://home.earthlink.net/~dansegypsy/index.html>

"The road to tyranny, we must never forget, is the destruction of
the truth" President William Clinton 1995 from a speech at The
University Of Connecticut <G> <G> <G>


Kurt Ullman

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to
In article <19981024185411...@ng-fd1.aol.com>, thrdw...@aol.com
(Thrdwrldog) wrote:

>
>Since that time (filing with EEOC), my Nurse manager has engaged me in a war of
>retaliation. Writing me up for very minor offenses, following me around the
>unit with a clip board while I perform patient care.

>Has any other Male RN's ever had this kind of experience before? Let me know
>how you handled it.
>

The stuff with the patient was sexual harrassment, the other is just
plain vanilla harrassment. If you can get proof that she altered the narc
count and then said anything to you with witnesses present or wrote anything
down that was sent to someone else, I would go looking for an attorney with
defamation of character suits as a specialty. Accusing someone of a criminal
offense when there is none is libel (or slander) per se in most jurisdictions.
The other thing is to check in with whoever is handling your case with
the EEOC. If you can convince them that none of this predated the complaint
with EEOC, then they might be able to help you slap down the manager since
they get REAL upset when someone starts to try and intimidate someone who has
filed a complaint. Absolutely NO sense of humor when it comes to this....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"People everywhere confuse what they read in the newspapers with news."
-A.J. Liebling


Patti

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to
Get yourself a lawyer. The EEOC can only go so far with this-
and they may choose not to help you. This does not mean there
isn't anything left for you. Legal counsel is strongly advised
at this point.

Mark Gaines

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to Thrdwrldog
Another thought, if you report her to the state board of nursing, she
will absolutely need a lawyer to have a prayer to save her nursing
license. Of course the facility is not likely to pay the bill as
altering a controled substance record is a criminal felony, federal and
state. This will put her through hell, well deserved no doubt. Please
copy all the advice from all of us as it looks right on target, print
out the messages for future reference.

A simple letter, to the board, by certified mail, return receipt, will
work wonders for your nurse manager. Request an emergency suspension of
her license, pending outcome of an investigation. That appears warranted
for obvious reasons. Then of course she will be out of work STAT. It
might give her much needed time to think and repent.

Yes, I am strongly considering a career change as a nurse legal
consultant.........

Mark Gaines

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to Thrdwrldog
A few more pointers from my rather unpleasent experiences:

Call the DEA: Drug Enforcement Agency and report the alteration of the
narcotic sheet. You will put the licenses of the Chief Pharmacist and
Nurse Crachett on the line. They will pull a gestapo number on these
people.

Sue Nurse Cratchett for slander, attaching her personal assets such as
the house, car, boat and anything else you can put your teeth into. Make
it big, several million dollars. The county clerk will get a lien on the
affected property as a result.

When you file any legal action, give the address of her work site as the
location for service of legal papers. My ex-bass is the type that
probably even combs his "short hairs." He even has custom monogrammed
cuff links. Mr Image had open visits by U.S, Marshalls and County Deputy
Sheriffs, with the "word" about him getting sued traveling all over in
under minutes. That will destroy the reputation of Nurse Cratchett in
pretty short order.

Don't trust the higher administration on this. They will perform damage
control to limit their accountability, giving you nothing but a meek so
called apology, worded with lots of eupomnisms. Tell them to call your
barister.

When they want to settle, demand some resignations too. This sort of
thing will "send a message" to discourage others from such a foolhardy
course of action.

Also, write your State Board Of Nursing, and bring an ethics complaint
against the license of Nurse Cratchetts for altering the narcotic shhet,
and discrimination/unethical behavior. If you just happen to be a black,
spanish, or other minority male, sir, you will add a truckload of fuel
to the fire under her posterior anatomy.

Keep me posted on how this goes. I have been this route and know some
nasty tricks from having had suffered them. It sounds just like what I
dealt with, almost to the last detail.....

Resperctfully:

kansas

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to
Hey- I thought I'd been having it rough lately! Well, I have, but
your incidents are horrendous!!!
Take the advice of the many who have responded here: 1) report asap to
your state bd of nsg, 2) report the alteration of the narcotic record
to the DEA, 3) consider contacting a fraud hotline, 4) hire a lawyer
and sue the a$$ off those nurses involved in the set-up, as well as
filing workplace harassment charges against your employer for failing
to fulfill their obligation when you reported the harassment.
This will all take some time, diligence, and a will of iron; but don't
buckle under the pressure. What you do from here on will set the
stage for many, so it isn't just you you'll be defending; although that
is certainly reason enough :)
Good luck to you.

Thrdwrldog <thrdw...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981024185411...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
: Maybe some of you could tell me if this is sexual harrassment or not.


:
: I work as an RN in an outpatient chronic care facility. Patients
arrive three
: times a week for four hours at a time. I am the only Male that works
there
: among 32 RN's and LPN's.
:
: One particular patient happens to be a convicted sex offender and a
homosexual,
: constantly engaged in obscene speech and gestures to me. This
behavior went on
: since day one of my employment and continues to this day. I had
reported the
: incidents through the chain of command and was told that there would
be nothing
: they could do despite my repeated complaints.
:
: The final straw came when one day, this Patient exposed himself to me
while I
: was performing care on another Patient. I filed an EEOC complaint
shortly
: thereafter.

:
: Since that time (filing with EEOC), my Nurse manager has engaged me


in a war of
: retaliation. Writing me up for very minor offenses, following me
around the

: unit with a clip board while I perform patient care. The latest


thing she
: tried to do was accuse me of missing controlled substances. Another
RN and I
: had counted the narcotics one night and the Nurse manager came in to
the unit
: on her day off and altered my narcotic count to indicate that my
count was
: wrong. She then asked the other signing RN to verify the new count.

:
: I was tipped off to this and I immedietely called the state bureau of


control
: who came in and cleared me after doing an investigation.

:
: Has any other Male RN's ever had this kind of experience before? Let
me know
: how you handled it.
:
:

Mark Gaines

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Oct 25, 1998, 2:00:00 AM10/25/98
to kansas
When I went through it, the university authorities tried EVERYTHING to
break me and wear me down. But when they called my lawyer to negoeate,
and I refused their peanuts, I knew they were into heavy duty damage
control. I held out, refusing. Inside sources tell me that drove them
crazy. Remember, behind all the toughness or sweet talking is a scared
predator seeing his own death warrant about to be served. It's all an
act, with no real substance or anything of positive value.

It felt really good to dictate my ex-bosses dismise. It felt good to
hear every staff member was in threatening his majesty with a lawyer,
and forcing Mr. Image to back down. It felt good to watch a tyrant have
all his power removed: he can no longer fire, hire, discipline, sign any
time cards or purchase orders ( I called the FBI on him for kickbacks),
or write policy. My ghost haunts the halls right behind him five years
later. And he has tried for five years to get another job but he learned
that once you are nailed for discrimination as a manager, no one wants
you, period. Not even at national convention.

So hang in there guy, the best is at the end, but you will have to earn
it first. Remember the harder they fight back, the more scared and weak
they are.

Good night all, got to sleep.

Edward Tabor

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Oct 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/26/98
to Thrdwrldog
I side with the rest. It is time to get a lawyer. You boss has performed a
criminal act in changing the narc counts. Next time, make copies of the sheets. I
also would document every day what you do and what goes on. This woman sounds like
she has a H.O. for you. Be careful.
Ed

Edward Tabor

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Oct 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/26/98
to danse...@earthlink.net
Mark,
You have some excellent ideas and plans. were you a lawyer in another
life?
Ed

Mark Gaines wrote:

> Another thought, if you report her to the state board of nursing, she
> will absolutely need a lawyer to have a prayer to save her nursing
> license. Of course the facility is not likely to pay the bill as
> altering a controled substance record is a criminal felony, federal and
> state. This will put her through hell, well deserved no doubt. Please
> copy all the advice from all of us as it looks right on target, print
> out the messages for future reference.
>
> A simple letter, to the board, by certified mail, return receipt, will
> work wonders for your nurse manager. Request an emergency suspension of
> her license, pending outcome of an investigation. That appears warranted
> for obvious reasons. Then of course she will be out of work STAT. It
> might give her much needed time to think and repent.
>
> Yes, I am strongly considering a career change as a nurse legal
> consultant.........

Jose Leandro

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Oct 26, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/26/98
to
I agree witg getting a labor lawyer, but be careful with your head wench, an
old strategist said "If you are going to shoot the king, don't miss!".
Edward Tabor wrote in message <363421D9...@dol.net>...
>> Has any other Male RN's ever had this kind of experience before? Let me
know
>> how you handled it.
>
>
>

Andrew Heenan

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Oct 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/27/98
to
Thrdwrldog wrote:
>
> Maybe some of you could tell me if this is sexual harrassment or not.

<see authors posting>

From what you say, your boss clearly has it in for you, big time ...

But your account does not support the claim of sexual harassment.

Harassment, certainly - but she being female and you being male is not
sufficent to 'prove' a sexual element. For example, she may simply be an
incompetent manager, who does not like being exposed. But that could
equally be true of a male manager - and the subsequent harassment could
be just as vicious! Also, are you sure she is not giving your female
colleagues the same hard time?

Either way, you certainly seem to be taking wise precautions; I hope you
can get to the point where it stops!!

--
Andrew

LAIRD, TED &BECKY

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Nov 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/1/98
to
Most "sexual harassment" charges have nothing to do with "sexual" but more
with "hostile work environment." I think this falls into that category

C.V. Compton Shaw

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Nov 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/2/98
to
A female leading feminist recently made a statement in the Dallas
Morning News to the affect that, although society has made great strides
through laws and customs in getting U.S. society to accept females in
traditionally male jobs, U.S. society has not even begun to adopt laws
and promulgate customs that promulgate the acceptance of males in
traditionally female jobs. In my many years of nursing, I have never
experienced any sexual harassment by a female patient; however, I have
experience sexual harassment on several occassions from male homosexual
patients. The last time that occurred was several years ago. Since I am
heterosexual, I rejected those advances without being rude. I have been
retaliated against on one or two occassions by male homosexual patients
for rejecting these advances.I, personally, would not file a complaint
with any agency because of such unwelcome advances, unless they
threatened my livlihood. I believe in "live and let live." and support
laws and customs which promote tolerance for homosexuality and equal
(not preferential) treatment of homosexuals. Traditonal biblical dogma
states that it is imperative that males always assume a dominant role
over women. It asserts that in an egalitarian or dominant role over men,
women are destructive towards men and that such a role harms women as
well. This dogma is part of other religions also as well as classical
psychiatric theory. It has been part of my experience,also.
Your experience only exemplifies what occurs to males when they are in
an egalitarian role with women or are in a role in which they are
dominated by a woman. When men assume a dominat role over women, true
peace and happiness result and both men and women benefit. My advice to
all men is to avoid all interaction with women other than that in which
they, as men, assume a dominant role over women.

David Dixon

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Nov 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/3/98
to
C.V. Compton Shaw wrote:

<a load of garbage snipped>

"When men assume a dominat role over women, true peace and happiness
result and both men and women benefit. My advice to all men is to avoid
all interaction with women other than that in which they, as men, assume
a dominant role over women."

Of all the things I have ever seen in this newsgroup, this is one of the
most ridiculous I have ever seen. It is either a troll, or this C V
Compton Shaw needs help.

Of course we are all entitled to our opinion, and in MY opinion, Mr C V
Comptom Shaw, you are way out of line, incredibly out of touch with
reality, and IF you are indeed a caregiver, as you state, the very
antithesis of what the nursing profession is all about.

I sincerely hope, and truly believe, that most, if not all the other
participants in this forum, female and male, regard your statements as
an abominable aberration.


David Dixon, RN

Kurt Ullman

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Nov 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/3/98
to
In article <363E8E...@swbell.net>, mis...@swbell.net wrote:
I, personally, would not file a complaint
>with any agency because of such unwelcome advances, unless they
>threatened my livlihood. I believe in "live and let live." and support
>laws and customs which promote tolerance for homosexuality and equal
>(not preferential) treatment of homosexuals

But if you allow them (or any other permutation of sexual prefrence)
to get away with this, then you are giving them preferential treatment. Sauce
for the goose is sauce for the gander...


>peace and happiness result and both men and women benefit. My advice to
>all men is to avoid all interaction with women other than that in which
>they, as men, assume a dominant role over women.

Being a male and all, works for me(g). You are, of course prepared
for the slings and arrows coming your way?

Mark Gaines

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Nov 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/3/98
to mis...@swbell.net
This stinks like a TROL. Why is it some people just aren't happy unless
they can cause others trouble? They are sick puppies indeed, in need of
a frontal lobotomy, and electroshock therapy, to say the least:.)

Just ignore this individual and his cognates. They jet their thrills
from getting everyone upset. You will drive them mad if you ignore them.
We have enough of that trash on this newsgroup already; we hardly need
any more..

Respectfully:

david allen

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Nov 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/5/98
to
You're kidding right? Or do you just like getting flamed?

C.V. Compton Shaw wrote:
>
> A female leading feminist recently made a statement in the Dallas
> Morning News to the affect that, although society has made great strides
> through laws and customs in getting U.S. society to accept females in
> traditionally male jobs, U.S. society has not even begun to adopt laws
> and promulgate customs that promulgate the acceptance of males in
> traditionally female jobs. In my many years of nursing, I have never
> experienced any sexual harassment by a female patient; however, I have
> experience sexual harassment on several occassions from male homosexual
> patients. The last time that occurred was several years ago. Since I am
> heterosexual, I rejected those advances without being rude. I have been
> retaliated against on one or two occassions by male homosexual patients

> for rejecting these advances.I, personally, would not file a complaint


> with any agency because of such unwelcome advances, unless they
> threatened my livlihood. I believe in "live and let live." and support
> laws and customs which promote tolerance for homosexuality and equal

> (not preferential) treatment of homosexuals. Traditonal biblical dogma
> states that it is imperative that males always assume a dominant role
> over women. It asserts that in an egalitarian or dominant role over men,
> women are destructive towards men and that such a role harms women as
> well. This dogma is part of other religions also as well as classical
> psychiatric theory. It has been part of my experience,also.
> Your experience only exemplifies what occurs to males when they are in
> an egalitarian role with women or are in a role in which they are

> dominated by a woman. When men assume a dominat role over women, true

Mark Gaines

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Nov 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/6/98
to davidp...@sprintmail.com
You should see the private reply he sent me. First I laughed myself
sore, then deleted it! This gut is too dumb for words. Ignore this
reptile as he wants an audience. We can all laugh at him privately, or
communicate by private EMAIL.

This guy makes Archie Bunker look decent. Now that is scary.........

John M. Brown

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Nov 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/9/98
to
Thrdwrldog <thrdw...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19981024185411...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
> Maybe some of you could tell me if this is sexual harrassment or not.
>
> I work as an RN in an outpatient chronic care facility. Patients
> arrive three times a week for four hours at a time. I am the
> only Male that works there among 32 RN's and LPN's.
>
> One particular patient happens to be a convicted sex offender and a
> homosexual, constantly engaged in obscene speech and gestures

> to me. This behavior went on since day one of my employment
> and continues to this day. I had reported the incidents
> through the chain of command and was told that there would
> be nothing they could do despite my repeated complaints.
>
> The final straw came when one day, this Patient exposed
> himself to me while I was performing care on another Patient.
> I filed an EEOC complaint shortly thereafter.

Your EEOC complaint was without merit.

Sexual Harassment law is intended to protect workers from acts by an
employer or his agents (such as subcontractor and the like). You didn't
mention any association of agency that this patient has with your
employer, so this would not be a valid sexual harassment complaint.

In this article by Cathy Young
http://www.reason.com/9808/fe.young.html she says

On MSNBC, Wendy Murphy, a staunch feminist victims' advocate,
caustically observed that it was ridiculous to "ask for $3 million
merely because you saw a penis!"

In reference to the Paula Jones case. Some may regard it as even more
ridiculous that a nurse would claim to have been harmed by seeing a
penis.

You might try an indecent exposure charge, but even with that I
personally consider that you would be doing more harm than good by
raising any sort of legal complaint instead of simply dealing with it.
(Unless he gets violent, of course.)

> Since that time (filing with EEOC), my Nurse manager has engaged me
> in a war of retaliation. Writing me up for very minor offenses,
> following me around the unit with a clip board while I perform
> patient care. The latest thing she tried to do was accuse me
> of missing controlled substances. Another RN and I had counted
> the narcotics one night and the Nurse manager came in to
> the unit on her day off and altered my narcotic count to
> indicate that my count was wrong. She then asked the other
> signing RN to verify the new count.

You can find a cookbook approach to building a retaliation complaint at
the EEOC web site http://www.eeoc.gov/publicat.html . Click on the
compliance manual. Chapter 8 is the section on retaliation and its the
only section currently online.

> I was tipped off to this and I immedietely called the state bureau of
> control who came in and cleared me after doing an investigation.
>
> Has any other Male RN's ever had this kind of experience before? Let
> me know how you handled it.

Sexual harassment law is bad law. Particularly as its constructed as a
form of discrimination. In some sense I can't help but suspect that *you*
are in some way disriminating against *him* after all on the basis of his
sexual preference. Would your work environment be as hostile if Carmen
Electra were making the same crude advances?

John M. Brown

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
to
In article <71n4ra$qsv$1...@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
kurtu...@sprintmail.com says...
> I, personally, would not file a complaint
> >with any agency because of such unwelcome advances, unless they
> >threatened my livlihood. I believe in "live and let live." and support
> >laws and customs which promote tolerance for homosexuality and equal
> >(not preferential) treatment of homosexuals
>
> But if you allow them (or any other permutation of sexual prefrence)
> to get away with this, then you are giving them preferential treatment. Sauce
> for the goose is sauce for the gander...

I don't work in a medical field, but I happen to have looked into the
ethics of nursing a couple of years ago. The American Nurses Association
maintains the 'Code For Nurses' - a code of ethics for the profession. I
bought a little booklet that lists the 11 statements of the code along
with interpretive statements from my State Nurses Association. I've been
mulling this over today and trying to figure out just what in the hell
*virture* you people think there is in trying to pull this client's
behavior out of the nurse/patient model of health care and into the
Sexual Harassment model of gender politics.

Now, I well realize that if you look up the dictionary definitions of the
two words 'sexual harassment' you can come to understand this client's
behavior as meeting the combined definitions. But this is one of the
worst aspects of sexual harassment law. It can not be understood in that
way. Those two words have well understood everyday meanings. Sexual
harassment as a concept, however, was created by feminist activists in
the mid seventies and was put into circulation by their deliberate
efforts. The behavior covered by that phrase is not what you would
understand from adding up those two words.

But what could motivate you to want to understand the patient in that way
as apparently you do? Going back to the 'Code for Nurses' the first
statement is 'The nurse provides services with respect for human dignity
and the uniqueness of the client unrestricted by considerations of social
or economic status, personal attributes, or the nature of health
problems.' An interpretive statement in the ANA's booklet elaborates that
'The need for health care is universal, transcending all national,
ethnic, racial, religious, cultural, political, educational, economic,
developmental, personality, role, and sexual differences.'

Thus, no matter how 'inappropriate' you may regard a patient's behavior,
or how 'uncomfortable' he or she may make you feel, aren't you ethically
bound to confine your relationship with him or her to the rendering of
care?

Ethics is hard. Understanding SH is very very hard. I would like to
recommend a couple of books I have read lately that address these issues.
_Sexual Harassment: A Debate_ by Linda LeMoncheck and Mane Hajdin has a
very good discussion of the problems of sexual harassment law. _The
Appearance of Impropriety_ (can't recall the author right now and I'm
composing this offline) laments the current trend to craft and adhere to
complicated ethical codes that focus primarily on appearances and
unfortunately on little more. In contrast, I think your 'Code for Nurses'
has real substance.

Lastly, I have to tell you that I have the greatest respect for those of
you who carry out your duties in the medical field under constant
bombardment from every conceivable disgusting bodily fluid and every
conceivable disgusting behavioral aberration that we patients hurl at you
and I'm grateful for you.

Kurt Ullman

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Nov 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/10/98
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In article <MPG.10b16dc37...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
pac_spama...@worldnet.att.net (John M. Brown) wrote:

>*virture* you people think there is in trying to pull this client's
>behavior out of the nurse/patient model of health care and into the
>Sexual Harassment model of gender politics.

No virtue. But I did not exactly make up the rules, but since they are
there they should be enforced. Simple as that.

>But what could motivate you to want to understand the patient in that way
>as apparently you do? Going back to the 'Code for Nurses' the first
>statement is 'The nurse provides services with respect for human dignity
>and the uniqueness of the client unrestricted by considerations of social
>or economic status, personal attributes, or the nature of health
>problems.' An interpretive statement in the ANA's booklet elaborates that
>'The need for health care is universal, transcending all national,
>ethnic, racial, religious, cultural, political, educational, economic,
>developmental, personality, role, and sexual differences.'
>
>Thus, no matter how 'inappropriate' you may regard a patient's behavior,
>or how 'uncomfortable' he or she may make you feel, aren't you ethically
>bound to confine your relationship with him or her to the rendering of
>care?

Why? If I am assaulted by a patient that is not mentally
incapacitated, I am perfectly able (and indeed if you look at the ANA website
on the subject ENCOURAGED) to file charges. Same here. Just because I am a RN
doesn't mean that I have any less (or more) rights than anyone else. I expect
to be treated with respect. Especially in the realm of behavior that is
willful, considered behavior. Patient teaching can also be involved in
teaching them about being responsible for their own actions and that actions
have reactions.


>Lastly, I have to tell you that I have the greatest respect for those of
>you who carry out your duties in the medical field under constant
>bombardment from every conceivable disgusting bodily fluid and every
>conceivable disgusting behavioral aberration that we patients hurl at you
>and I'm grateful for you.

Thanks...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My main concern about the recent cloning announcement:
Any scientific advancement that stems from the result of Scottish people doing strange things to sheep is bound to have dire consequences.


Nom...@my-dejanews.com

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Nov 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/11/98
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What gets me is that a bunch of intelligent, hard working and reasonable
people can so easily be taken advantage of by a few unjust, and therefore
unreasonable people! I'm soo-sorry that this message is going to be somewhat
harsh, but, really, why don't you all wake up to the fact that, if this is
indeed the case, you are being treated as nothing but "pawns"! I mean, look
at the complaints. What do they all have in common? They are all instances of
abuse. "I would complain but I do not want to lose my job." ..."I have been
unfairly accused of <such and such>"..."My employer makes me show up to work
when I'm sick..."...the list goes on and on.

What would you say to a person who kept placing his or her hand on a hot
surface and then kept complaining to you that he hurt his or her hand? Would
you tell him to keep putting his hand on that hot surface, or would you not
mention the hot surface?

I am not a Doctor, but (if I had the money), I could open a BUSINESS and call
it a hospital, as long as I could convince a Doctor to work there. No Doctor,
no Hospital. It's that simple.

Well, until people get over this "poor me" syndrome, it's NOT going to change
and NO ONE who CAN is going to do anything about it, and guess what...the
longer it's allowed to go on, the more "accepted" it's going to be until one
day, we wake up and find that the ISN'T anything that can be done about it.

I myself have been a victim of what is being discussed here, but I am trying
to do something about it. I can't change the world and I don't even know if
I'd even want to, but I have no real respect for people who just sit ther,
make some very valid complaints and then leave it at that, hoping that the
next time it will be different. It's a pattern. It's not going to be
"different" next time, and yes, there WILL be a next time...next time you try
and change things. It disgusts me that this is so, but it is so because we do
not really care enough to do anything about it -We just sit there and
complain. Venting is useful, but it doesn't do very much except to let out
steam. Laws don't change through venting. The change by lawful action.

So, what's my point? My point is that ANYONE who has ANY valid complaint,
such as can be found here, can ONLY get the incident corrected by proper
action.

Money is the reason certain people, etc are in business. "They" will :eat you
alive" should you become a threat to this "money". No one really wants to, I
agree, but look at it: "Grandma and Grandpa" are allowed to suffer and even
die because money is more important. You and me are take the blame (when it
isn't our fault) because otherwise, money would have to be spent to correct
it. It's easier to get rid of us that to make it better. Yet, we are the
heart of the industry. I'm impressed, someone has finally figured out a way
to create something which can live without a heart - This Industry.

If I had my way, the first thing that would happen at a facility which did
not respect my needs (or others needs) would be that the WHOLE STAFF would
just Quit. A lot of these States are, after all "Right to Work" States and
that means you can quit for any reason, or none at all. Oh, yeah, they would
also start work at a non-profit facility.

So get it together, either take your hand off the fire or get used to being
burned. It's the way it is.

BTW: if I was ever physically injured by an otherwise "alert x3" person, even
if he or she was a patient, I would defend myself and yes, I WOULD press
charges because if I didn't, then I would be saying such behavior is "OK with
me", which it isn't.

In article <72a9an$f1e$2...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,


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bbra...@mindspring.com

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Nov 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/13/98
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Nom...@my-dejanews.com wrote without thinking...
<72cgj1$umq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...


-No Doctor, no Hospital. It's that simple.-

That should read... No NURSE, no hospital...


regards,

Ellie

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Nov 16, 1998, 3:00:00 AM11/16/98
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I would be exceedingly careful about reporting this patient's behavior to an
outside agency for reasons of confidentiality. Your employer is not at
fault. It the patient exposed himself to you while you were with another
patient, then there is a security concern for your other patients. Try to
rebuild confidence with your employers; if they are the "enemy" you don't
want to work for them in the first place, do you? I am not familiar with
"out-patient, chronic care facility". I would carefully and objectively
document his behavior as you would any patient's behavior. Where is he
coming from? Speak with the referring facility and/or his physician, voice
your concerns about the safety of other patients in your facility; if he has
a psychiatric diagnosis, perhaps he belongs in a facility for violent
patients? Good luck; let us know how things go.
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