Weisnut - for attn of Cal-Lyme

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lyme rayja

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Apr 27, 2005, 1:21:25 PM4/27/05
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Sarah wrote:

<
... HOWEVER, I think he is just a sick guy with a real mean
streak (and I believe in forgiving). >

Sarah, you are free to forgive this man for what he did to you. You
have no right to forgive what he has done to Kathleen, her children,
me, my children, or the dozens of other people he has libelled,
threatened and abused.

<You also say inappropriate
htings- I don't know if I know you from when I was on before but I
don't think I do- and that thing about the dog and testicles was
really
violent- maybe you are mad too but it dilutes the power of what you
otherwise write to write that kind of stuff.>

I am sorry if my style does not fit with your nice middle-class
sensibilities. I'm not from that kind of background.

Weisman -whether he is McSweegan or some other Steere camp lowlife -
has threatened to kill me in the past; my joke about the rottweiler is
just a joke - and a warning. If he ever tries to hurt me he will most
certainly end up in hospital. Everyone has the right to self-defense
and I am fortunate to have a number of loyal friends who will be very
glad to help me show him the hospitality he deserves, by introducing
his skull to the pavement.

Does that offend your sensibilities? Well, too bad. What would you do
if he tried to attack you? "Forgive" him?

IMO it's because our patients movement is too damn gentle, too damn
forgiving, too damn NAIVE above all , that we are in the hole that we
have been, ever since Polly Murray was duped into thinking Allen
Steere was the great hero riding across the plains to her rescue.

I'm not blaming Polly Murray, she had no way of knowing who she was
dealing with. But we have the benefit of 30 years of hindsight and
experience now since that day. Why the hell can't we stand up and say
the truth - that they have DELIBERATELY lied about Lyme disease?

Why do we have to be so goddma nice all the time?

Being angry when people have trashed your life, or that of your
children, partner, brother, sister, etc is not "insane". It's insane
not to be angry. It's normal.

The point is, can we turn our justified anger into something
constructive, can we expose these liars and bring down their hateful
edifice, that is causing suffering to so many thousands of people, and
has caused some (including some doctors) to commit suicide?


<In sum, if it *is* Joel, then I believe he is ethical in his way and
though he may go off on people- including me in the past- I don't
believe he would cross some lines>


This man has crossed so many lines, there's no lines left. If you
want, I can mail you privately with some examples of just what he has
done.

But please save your kindness and empathy for those who deserve it,
not those whose only pleasure in life is to kick them.

Lisa


and that he comes from a place of
bitterness from having once cared too much. If it is not Joel, perhaps
you are right!!! Then I don't know who it is or what he is capable of.
I just want to try and be as positive as I can about things because I
find I am more effective at getting things done that way and because
the last thing really sick people need is to be exposed to this kind
of
nastiness when they google us for help.
Very Sincerely,
Sarah*)

kathleen

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Apr 27, 2005, 1:37:07 PM4/27/05
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> Why the hell can't we stand up and say
> the truth - that they have DELIBERATELY lied about Lyme disease?


Very excellent point.


There is no controversy.

"Lyme disease" is scientific fraud.

Getting Lyme patients to be unwussified
is another story altogether.

Such overwhelming assinine troll-like
insanity on the part of the twins Weis
and Dritte, the whining, or plain old
wussification gives some justification
to the argument that we are depressed and
not sick.

Since we know that is not true, we should
be all doing something about it.

Oh well.

Adios.

Kathleen

Martijn

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Apr 27, 2005, 1:54:14 PM4/27/05
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kathleen wrote:
>>Why the hell can't we stand up and say
>>the truth - that they have DELIBERATELY lied about Lyme disease?

Of course you can do that; if it is best is yet another question.

> Very excellent point.

Very old point, nothing new.

> There is no controversy.
>
> "Lyme disease" is scientific fraud.

It is much more, it is very complex.

Martijn

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Apr 27, 2005, 2:04:50 PM4/27/05
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lyme rayja wrote:

> Sarah, you are free to forgive this man for what he did to you. You
> have no right to forgive what he has done to Kathleen, her children,
> me, my children, or the dozens of other people he has libelled,
> threatened and abused.

I hope you understand we can't just take that for granted. What exactly
has he done to you and your children? Can you provide proof?

> The point is, can we turn our justified anger into something
> constructive

I hardly know anything about you. What contructive things are you doing?

kathleen

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Apr 27, 2005, 2:18:18 PM4/27/05
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*Tell* us about it.

That is, what have *you* done about it?

Duh.

Martijn

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Apr 27, 2005, 2:51:22 PM4/27/05
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In the Netherlands making people aware of the diagnosis and treatment of
Lyme disease and trying to change the diagnosis and treatment, at least
in such a way that people have the right to choose what guidelines they
want to follow.

kathleen

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Apr 27, 2005, 3:20:54 PM4/27/05
to
That's excellent. We're on the same
team, then.

Kathleen

CaliforniaLyme

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Apr 27, 2005, 5:05:55 PM4/27/05
to
Sarah, you are free to forgive this man for what he did to you. You
have no right to forgive what he has done to Kathleen, her children,
me, my children, or the dozens of other people he has libelled,
threatened and abused.
unquote

Dear Lisa,

I forgive plenty and I have the right to decide who and what I
forgive. I am not disputing what I do not know- what has he done to
you>? What he has done to Kathleen I am not sure was he who is
accused- I DO believe it has been done to her- I do believe she has
been messed with- but I am questioning the assumption of who it is
supposed to be- I do believe it could be McSweegan but I don't believe
a_w is he.
Clearly A_w is also vicious with Kathleen, but he was with me back then
(if it is Joel) and that does not mean to me that he would cross over
to offline life. If he has, yes, I would like to know- but insinuation
or accusation is not offering any kind of proof.

quote


I am sorry if my style does not fit with your nice middle-class
sensibilities. I'm not from that kind of background.

unquote

It is not a question of style really and I don't know why you think I
am middle-class
because you don't know. Most of my life I have been quite poor. I am
middle-class now I suppose but just in the last few years and I don't
think anyone who knows me would describe me as having middle-class
sensibilities- quite the contrary.

quote

This man has crossed so many lines, there's no lines left. If you


want, I can mail you privately with some examples of just what he has
done.


But please save your kindness and empathy for those who deserve it,
not those whose only pleasure in life is to kick them.


Lisa

unquote

I don't believe it is _all_ deliberate lying- I think we are at a
paradigm shift.
I also think there is deliberate deception on the part of some.

I used to be angry before I found it limited my being effective- to me
that is paramount- above all I am practical- which comes from having
lived very poor for much of my life.

Is it effective to be angry to me, a fellow patient, a fellow mother, a
fellow (I am assuming you do stuff here because I don't know)
activist<>>? Is it effective to insinuate I am naive and class bound
because we differ in opinion<>?

Yes, I am well aware of all the damage being caused and caused by the
false portrayal of Lyme disease.
I believe that anger served "hot" at this stage will not serve us at
all, but serve us badly.

Before leaving to be home with my baby I worked as a counselor with
the severely mentally ill including a great many violent people. I am
by no means naive in the ways of the world and by no means a "wuss". I
think that having a different opinion should not make me a target but
then again, that is one thing I am, an idealist. If people have
threatened your life I urge you to get them prosecuted. Seriously. If
you can document stuff, do it. Why send stuff to me privately when you
could let the whole board know what has been sent to you>?

I believe Kathleen about her situation because I have met her and
had a great deal of instinctive trust in her- and I am not someone who
trusts. You, I don't know.
I never said it was insane to be angry. I know what insanity is, I
worked with it every day. But is what you are doing serving the
greater good of the Lyme patient community and isn't that what you want
to do>? Be effective!!! I don't know what else you are doing besides
your posts here- that is all I know of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But
again, if a_w has threatened you, go to the police!!! I know I used to
get phone calls from someone re Lyme who was not friendly and at the
time it frightened me, but they never threatened me. If they had, I
would have reported them gladly- and tried to get the harshest
consequence for them that I could!!!

I believe it is more complex than "they lied" to me. I see, "Some of
them lie, some believe x, some believe y-" When we insist that "they",
those on the other side of Lyme truths we see, are _all_ liars, we make
those who would be open, closed. Yes, there is deliberation on the
part of some- but not all. There are researchers out there who are
doing their legitimate best. There are also Klempners. They are
different.

Seriously,
Sarah

derdritt...@yahoo.com

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Apr 27, 2005, 5:06:41 PM4/27/05
to

kathleen wrote:

> That's excellent. We're on the same
> team, then.
>
> Kathleen
>

I doubt that...Martijn seems pretty much like a straight, HONEST,
standup guy to me...

I doubt if he qualifies for "your" team...

lyme rayja

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Apr 28, 2005, 5:50:06 PM4/28/05
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"CaliforniaLyme" <Califor...@cs.com> wrote in message news:<1114635955.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...

> Sarah, you are free to forgive this man for what he did to you. You
> have no right to forgive what he has done to Kathleen, her children,
> me, my children, or the dozens of other people he has libelled,
> threatened and abused.
> unquote
>
> Dear Lisa,
>
> I forgive plenty and I have the right to decide who and what I
> forgive.


Sarah,

Don't be so proud to assert your "right" to forgive Weisman for
hurting my children and myself, threatening to kill me, conspiring to
get Kathleen arrested, libelling the whole of ILADS and and all the
million and one other things he has done. You're not the person hurt
so your forgiveness means nothing.) At worst it's insulting, to those
of us who have been harmed by him. And I am NOT just talking about the
verbal abuse he has hurled at people - though that can be harmful
enough, as he libels people in their real name, while cowardly hiding
his own.

> Clearly A_w is also vicious with Kathleen, but he was with me back then
> (if it is Joel) and that does not mean to me that he would cross over
> to offline life. If he has, yes, I would like to know- but insinuation
> or accusation is not offering any kind of proof.

Read through the archive, for example, particularly around the time
Kathleen was in Canada, and then decide whether you believe he has
"crossed the line" or not.

Also, you need to understand that much of what this man has done
online is well over the "line". Tormenting a woman who had her
children taken away unjustly and was subsequently jailed is, in
itself, over the line.


>
> I don't believe it is _all_ deliberate lying- I think we are at a
> paradigm shift.
> I also think there is deliberate deception on the part of some.

When you say "all", what exactly do you mean? No one has said that all
doctors and researchers have lied about Lyme. Kathleen (and I and
others) have spoken about the Steere camp. And have been fairly
specific about which individuals we are talking about (though there
are others who should be added to the list).


>
> I used to be angry before I found it limited my being effective- to me
> that is paramount- above all I am practical- which comes from having
> lived very poor for much of my life.
>

To me it is absurd if, as a chronic Lyme patient you are not angry,
with all the atrocious abuse of our human rights that the Lyme
community has been subjected to for three decades now, at least some
of which you or those close to you must have suffered yourself.

> Is it effective to be angry to me, a fellow patient, a fellow mother, a
> fellow (I am assuming you do stuff here because I don't know)
> activist<>>?

I was not angry with you until I saw you describe a man who has
written nearly 1000 messages libelling and insulting me and my
children, as well as threatened to kill me, harmed many of my friends,
viciously libelled the only doctors that help us etc etc - as someone
who does this because he really "cares". If you can't understand me
being angry at you over that, well you're not a very perceptive
person, that's all I can say.


Is it effective to insinuate I am naive and class bound
> because we differ in opinion<>?


Is it effective to go around saying that our biggest enemies hust us
because they "care" so much?

How much of the archive did you read before giving judgment on this
man. Did you read this post:

-----------------------
Message 3 in thread
From: a_we...@hotmail.com (a_we...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: McSweegan was sued for $2 million


View this article only
Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
Date: 2003-12-02 13:28:16 PST

lisam...@aol.com (Lisam01502) wrote in message news:<20031130154823...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
> Why was Ed McSweegan sued for $2 million?
> Lisa

Because the lunatics from a certain Lyme Disease foundation in CT were
seeking to suppress the TRUTH and his first amendment rights.

For the record: They LOST. And he WON reinstatement to his job.

He was represented by the ACLU because the government violated his
first amendment rights.

He has been punished unjustly.
------------------------------------

You say you know about McSweegan, you know who he is and what he has
done to the Lyme community.

Now, do you really feel that Weisman, whose passion is for defending
McSweegan, who has been "punished unjustly", and whose entire 1000+
tirade of hate posts and libel against me and Kathleen arose precisely
because we accused McSweegan and certain other Steere camp doctors and
scientists of deliberate fraud , is doing all this because he "cares"
so much?

>
> Yes, I am well aware of all the damage being caused and caused by the
> false portrayal of Lyme disease.
> I believe that anger served "hot" at this stage will not serve us at
> all, but serve us badly.
>


Well, then we will have to agree to totally and utterly disagree.

I believe its our passivity, complacency and naivete that has hurt us,
and will continue to condemn us to remain in the sh*tty situation we
are in forever, till we wake up.


Why send stuff to me privately when you
> could let the whole board know what has been sent to you>?

One of the people Weisman did something EXTREMELY vicious to has asked
me not to discuss it publicly for fear he will harm her even more.
That's why.


>
> I believe Kathleen about her situation because I have met her and
> had a great deal of instinctive trust in her- and I am not someone who
> trusts.

Well, you seem to have an excess of trust for Weisman. Talk to
Kathleen. She will tell you just how humane and "caring" he has been
here.


Lisa

kathleen

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Apr 28, 2005, 6:20:02 PM4/28/05
to
Yes, Sarah,

What Lisa says is true.

Please avoid giving sociopaths any sympathy.
I made that mistake myself *for years.*

Kathleen

Martijn

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Apr 28, 2005, 6:24:09 PM4/28/05
to
lyme rayja wrote:

> Sarah,
>
> Don't be so proud to assert your "right" to forgive Weisman for
> hurting my children and myself, threatening to kill me, conspiring to
> get Kathleen arrested, libelling the whole of ILADS and and all the
> million and one other things he has done. You're not the person hurt
> so your forgiveness means nothing.) At worst it's insulting, to those
> of us who have been harmed by him. And I am NOT just talking about the
> verbal abuse he has hurled at people - though that can be harmful
> enough, as he libels people in their real name, while cowardly hiding
> his own.

Lisa, we know your points. It doesn't help if you attack people like
this, try not to be so angry and calm down a little.

This counts for Lisa, Kathleen, derdrittemann and a_weisman: calm down
and stop all this cruelty, I'm starting to be fed up with this. You
don't have to respond to each other's cruelty with the same cruelty.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole blind".

Message has been deleted

Martijn

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Apr 28, 2005, 6:42:01 PM4/28/05
to
lyme rayja wrote:

> Sarah,
>
> Don't be so proud to assert your "right" to forgive Weisman for
> hurting my children and myself, threatening to kill me, conspiring to
> get Kathleen arrested, libelling the whole of ILADS and and all the
> million and one other things he has done. You're not the person hurt
> so your forgiveness means nothing.) At worst it's insulting, to those
> of us who have been harmed by him. And I am NOT just talking about the
> verbal abuse he has hurled at people - though that can be harmful
> enough, as he libels people in their real name, while cowardly hiding
> his own.

Lisa, we know your points. It doesn't help if you attack people like

this, try not to be so angry and calm down a little.

This counts for Lisa, Kathleen, derdrittemann and a_weisman: calm down
and stop all this cruelty, I'm starting to be fed up with this. You
don't have to respond to each other's cruelty with the same cruelty.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" - Ghandi

kathleen

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Apr 28, 2005, 6:57:54 PM4/28/05
to
Agree.

What do you want to do, then?

Want to organize an international
letter-writing campaign complaining
of You Know Which agency in Atlanta?

Copy the WHO?

I could put a template on my website
for people to copy down. Or, we could
make it something that the Lyme webrings
all share.

If there are 800,000 people in this country
alone who have CFIDS (according to the CDC,
so that means more like 8 million), imagine
how many there are in Europe and Australia?

We could do a lot. Contrary to popular
belief, I still have some connections.

What happened in the past, when we tried
to form an international patient advocacy
group, was, we formed one, then all the groups
broke off, and formed their own little
autocracies, headed by local pinheads.

I ran ActionLyme in a democratic way, only
we yeilded little actual action. I maintain
hope, as does Lisa, and probably everyone
else, that eventually we will get pissed
enough to do something global- PACIFIST-
Global.

You know, targetted not at each other,
for a change. (Just nevermind Weisman, he
is hopeless.)

Usually elected officials in this country
respond to a mass letter writing campaign.
That's how we got New York going... although
it never went anywhere, because of the splinter
groups and pinheaded local activist autocracies.

This news from CDC is good, except I am a
little leary about them now screening people
of color- that chronically rejected group-
that group who get pared the cheap end of
the stick in every arena... for "Chronic Illness"
in Georgia, because I am afraid the outcome will
be the usual- "These people are not sick, they
are just depressed." Or, "Their problem is poverty
and not illness."

To which, The Heritage Foundation will respond:
"Quit whining, your problems are your own
stupid fault (Sally Satel)."
http://www.sallysatelmd.com/


CDC says they want to take blood this time,
from CFIDS people, which is a switch from psychiatric
surveys as the usual means to determine CFIDS is not
real.

Whattya think?

The issue is funding, but we, in the US, funded
huge studies to determine Autism is not due to the
Thimerosal, when CDC knew it wasn't- It's due
to the MMR antigens themselves (revealed by
the fact that CDC has now declared Rubella
finally gone- "Just nevermind those pesky break-
through strains, and the post-vaccinal encephalitis
resulting in the phenomenal increase in "Autism"...).

And we funded huge studies to say we are too
fat, and therefore unhealthy, only for that to be
retracted by CDC.


Everyone should study the CDC's website, if
they want to know what they intend for us.

Next its cop-enforced quarantines- But the prisons
are already overflowing with tuberculosis and
AIDS. What do they have in mind? First prison,
then Leper Colonies?

We should all write Small Business Innovation
grant proposals for cash to build such leper
colonies and related prisons for people will
illnesses. I don't see anyone starting a
"National string of psychiatric hospitals for
adult victims of MMR brain damage."

That should be a healthy market.


I've tried organizing. Rallying Lyme
patients to collective action is harder
than herding cats. The CFIDS/ME patients
are our twins. And they refuse to join
us even in simply taking on the CDC. We
told them they could HAVE their non-diagnosis
if they love so much being abused, just
join us in an action to call on the CDC
to be accountable. I got the same result
with the Autistic parents group...

All the little nitwit e-list managers so much
want to be boss, that nothing gets done.


People fail to see what the result is
of not having paid lobbyists. Said more
clearly: People fail to realize that we have
to rely on each other if we are not rich.

Said another way: How about we start
a Democracy and have a Constitution. The
First Amendment could be Free Speech.

Ya think?

Kathleen

CaliforniaLyme

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Apr 28, 2005, 7:06:58 PM4/28/05
to
Well, we have to agree to disagree then, as you said.

I think I have a high degree of tolerance because in my profession I
have had to work with and come from a place of healing, a place without
anger, when dealing with sex offenders and pedophiles and other more
simple violent people. Extremism is what I am used to.

I hope you don't waste any anger on me. I am not the enemy.

Brent

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Apr 28, 2005, 9:02:45 PM4/28/05
to
On 28 Apr 2005 15:57:54 -0700, "kathleen" <kathleen...@snet.net>
snickered:

>People fail to see what the result is
>of not having paid lobbyists. Said more
>clearly: People fail to realize that we have
>to rely on each other if we are not rich.

Bingo. I wonder how many whould donate at lymenet if specific
proposals where put forth. People could donate to the items they want
funded. the website itself would probably rake in tons.

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