Genius & Autism - the Missing Link?
Anne Nahnimoss
35 years that all the members of my immediate family
*tried* to commit me to a mental institution...
not that I ever felt bad about it- :-)
=============================================
'Missing link' between madness and genius
By Amy Iggulden
(Filed: 11/06/2005)
Genius cannot exist without mental disorder,
according to a study that names George Orwell, LS Lowry
and Lewis Carroll among 21 artists who suffered a form of autism.
The psychiatric portrait of some of the most imaginative minds
in history claims to prove the link between madness and greatness.
Beethoven, Mozart, Hans Christian Andersen and Immanuel Kant
are among the musicians, writers, painters and philosophers
who have been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.
Prof Michael Fitzgerald, a psychiatrist and expert in the syndrome
that affects social relationships but not intellect, claims that people
with Asperger's can have exceptional artistic creativity,
as well as mathematical genius.
Einstein and other engineering geniuses have already been suggested
as sufferers. Prof Fitzgerald claims that some of the same genes
that cause Asperger's are a source of creative brilliance.
One of the characteristics of Asperger's is thought to be an inability
to engage in creative play. But Prof Fitzgerald says the syndrome
almost certainly drove Orwell, Lowry and Carroll to writing
and painting as a form of "self-help".
"Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin -
you can't get one without the other," he said.
His claims are set out in The Genesis of Artistic Creativity,
which is to be published later this month, and have already
won support from The National Autistic Society.
Dr Judith Gould, the director of the diagnostic unit at the
National Autistic Society, said yesterday:
"The theory makes sense, because one of the diagnostic criteria
for Asperger's is a 'patchy' ability, where some skills are better than
others.
"That is greatly emphasised in geniuses."
However, Prof John Geake, a researcher into cognitive creativity
attached to Oxford University and Oxford Brookes University,
was not convinced.
He said: "The truth is that most highly intelligent people
are very competent at life."
Prof Fitzgerald, a psychiatrist at Trinity College, Dublin,
has diagnosed more than 900 people with the syndrome
since he began practising in 1974. For the study, he assessed
the personalities of 21 geniuses against the criteria for Asperger's,
using biographies and first-person recollections.
He believes that Orwell displayed the social impairment, narrow focus,
repetitive behaviour and clumsiness typical of the syndrome.
And Beethoven, who was "clumsy", "emotionally immature"
and "had an unusually large head" also fit the criteria for Asperger's.
An expert on Beethoven, Dr Barry Cooper, said last night
that he barely recognised the description of the composer.
"He was unkempt because his mind was on higher things," he said.
"And I have never heard him described as emotionally immature."
Martijn
> 'Missing link' between madness and genius
Nonsense.
> Genius cannot exist without mental disorder,
Nonsense.
> "Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin -
> you can't get one without the other," he said.
Unbelievable, what a nonsense.
Anne Nahnimoss
"Martijn" <Kw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42ac52df$0$782$3a62...@reader20.nntp.hccnet.nl...
> Anne Nahnimoss wrote:
No,no,no Marty.
*I* did not write what appears in the main body of this post.
I delivered it here for discussion.
I am the messenger.
Did you happen at all to notice the FREEKIN' QUESTION MARK
at the end of the subject line(((((((((((((((((((((?)))))))))))))))))))))))
My!
YOU have certainly contributed to this discussion...
Not!
AN
kathleen
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm
Einstein and Newton 'had autism'
Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton may have suffered from a type of
autism, according to experts.
Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both
scientists displayed signs of Asperger's Syndrome.
Many people with Asperger's are often regarded as being eccentric. They
sometimes lack social skills, are obsessed with complex topics and can
have problems communicating.
This latest research suggests that Einstein, who is credited with
developing the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the
laws of gravity, had these traits to varying degrees.
According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from
a young age.
As a child, he was a loner and often repeated sentences obsessively
until he was seven years old. He was also a notoriously confusing
lecturer.
Later in life, the German-born scientist made intimate friends, had
numerous affairs and spoke out on political issues.
'Passionate'
However, the researchers insist that he continued to show signs of
having Asperger's.
"Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly
compatible with Asperger's Syndrome," Professor Simon Baron-Cohen of
Cambridge, one of those involved in the study, told New Scientist
magazine.
"What most people with Asperger's Syndrome find difficult is casual
chatting - they can't do small talk."
The researchers believe that Newton displayed classic signs of the
condition.
He hardly spoke, was so-engrossed in his work that he often forgot to
eat and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had.
If no one turned up to his lectures he gave them anyway talking to an
empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by
depression and paranoia.
However, others believe these traits can be attributed to both men's
high intelligence.
'Socially inept'
"One can imagine geniuses who are socially inept and yet not remotely
autistic," said Dr Glen Elliott, a psychiatrist at the University of
California at San Francisco.
"Impatience with the intellectual slowness of others, narcissism and
passion for one's mission in life might combine to make such
individuals isolative and difficult."
He told the magazine that Einstein was regarded as having a good sense
of humour - a trait not seen in people with severe Asperger's.
Professor Baron-Cohen said the findings suggested that people with the
syndrome can excel if they find their niche in life.
"This condition can make people depressed or suicidal, so if we can
find out how to make things easier for them, that's worthwhile."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/2988647.stm
Published: 2003/04/30 23:13:58 GMT
© BBC MMV
Martijn
> 'Missing link' between madness and genius
> By Amy Iggulden
> (Filed: 11/06/2005)
> 'Missing link' between madness and genius
IMO Nonsense: this is absolutely no link to madness and genius.
> Genius cannot exist without mental disorder,
IMO Nonsense: it can. Besides, it matters how you define "disorder".
> "Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin -
> you can't get one without the other," he said.
IMO Unbelievable, what a nonsense: of course you can have one without
the other.
Frank de Groot
> > "Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin -
> > you can't get one without the other," he said.
>
> IMO Unbelievable, what a nonsense: of course you can have one without the
> other.
You better explain Prof. Michael Fitzgerald what is wrong in his scientific
research then.
Tell him your don't believe him, and that this is sufficient scientific
evidence/proof to offset his data :)
Martijn
> You better explain Prof. Michael Fitzgerald what is wrong in his scientific
> research then.
> Tell him your don't believe him, and that this is sufficient scientific
> evidence/proof to offset his data :)
I'm the living proof, he could use me as a subject for study.
Frank de Groot
>
> I'm the living proof, he could use me as a subject for study.
Are you saying that you have Asperger's and are not agenius, or that you are
a genius but don't have Asperger's?
Both is subjective and even if it were true it would harldy be proof to the
contrary of the prof's statement.
Martijn
> Are you saying that you have Asperger's and are not agenius, or that you are
> a genius but don't have Asperger's?
The latter.
> Both is subjective and even if it were true it would harldy be proof to the
> contrary of the prof's statement.
Exactly, it's subjective. So if one wants he can even "diagnose" people
like Beethoven, Mozart, Hans Christian Andersen and Immanuel Kant in
retrospect with "Asperger".
It is true that many people with autism spectrum "disorders" can do
brilliant things. So can do many without "ASD".
BTW: I have a problem with the words "disorder" and "sufferers".
And I think there are many very creative people who don't "have
Asperger", who do not even come close to such a diagnosis.
IMO the prof is generalizing matters.
Frank de Groot
>> Are you saying that you have Asperger's and are not agenius, or that you
>> are a genius but don't have Asperger's?
>
> The latter.
Can you prove it?
> Exactly, it's subjective. So if one wants he can even "diagnose" people
> like Beethoven, Mozart, Hans Christian Andersen and Immanuel Kant in
> retrospect with "Asperger".
I said that considering YOURSELF a genius is subjective.
But the prof investigated people who are generally considered geniuses.
> It is true that many people with autism spectrum "disorders" can do
> brilliant things. So can do many without "ASD".
> BTW: I have a problem with the words "disorder" and "sufferers".
That's your problem.
Has to do with the ridiculous political correctness in the Netherlands where
criminal illegal immigrants on the dole are "enrichers" and imbeciles are
"intellectually challenged" and so forth and so on.
> And I think there are many very creative people who don't "have Asperger",
> who do not even come close to such a diagnosis.
"Very creative" is not the same as being a genius, and the prof did not
imply that either.
> IMO the prof is generalizing matters.
It does not appear at all like it.
It appers he spent decades studying the matter and only after very careful
deliberation and considering the fallout for his career, he published his
findings.
"Generalizing" is another dirty word in PC Holland, BTW.
Apparently it is a Herculean task to free oneself from the indoctrination
one receives as a child.
One adopts a brainwashing as one's own opinion - the worst kind of
indoctrination is when one actually BELIEVES what one is spoonfed as a
child.
The ability to generalize is what separates intelligent life from
non-intelligent life, and it has given intelligent life the evolutionary
edge.
If one would have an opinion at all about "generalization", it would be that
it was evolution's best invention and the blessing of all mankind.
The fact that the PTB have brainwashed us into thinking that generalization
is a dirty word will be our demise.
Martijn
> Can you prove it?
I guess can only "prove" that I'm not a genius..
> That's your problem.
That's why I said: "I have..".
> Has to do with the ridiculous political correctness in the Netherlands where
> criminal illegal immigrants on the dole are "enrichers" and imbeciles are
> "intellectually challenged" and so forth and so on.
The opposite is true. Notwithstanding indoctrination and brainwashing I
realise that "disorder" and "sufferer" are subjective words.
> "Very creative" is not the same as being a genius, and the prof did not
> imply that either.
I was responding to this quote: "Asperger's and creativity are two sides
of the same coin - you can't get one without the other," he said.
> Apparently it is a Herculean task to free oneself from the indoctrination
> one receives as a child.
> One adopts a brainwashing as one's own opinion - the worst kind of
> indoctrination is when one actually BELIEVES what one is spoonfed as a
> child.
I know this intimitely..
kathleen
The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing
positive knowledge.
Albert Einstein
duh.
Martijn
> The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing
> positive knowledge.
> Albert Einstein
>
> duh.
Duh what?
kathleen
> 'Missing link' between madness and genius
Nonsense.
> Genius cannot exist without mental disorder,
Nonsense.
> "Asperger's and creativity are two sides of the same coin -
> you can't get one without the other," he said.
Unbelievable, what a nonsense.
---
Duh Einstein said himself creativity
was his favorite element of his genius.
And you're response proves you aren't one.
Kathleen
Martijn
> Duh Einstein said himself creativity
> was his favorite element of his genius.
Nice that the overrated Mr. Einstein said that.
But so what?
> And you're response proves you aren't one.
How does it prove that?
Brent
<fran...@online.no> eloquently stated:
>>> Are you saying that you have Asperger's and are not agenius, or that you
>>> are a genius but don't have Asperger's?
Great book
Madness And Modernism
Insanity,Literature,and Thought.